Leadership in Complex Systems with Dr Jean Boulton - OrgDev Episode 96

In this episode, Dr Jean Boulton joins us to explore how ideas from complexity science can help leaders understand strategy, power and change in uncertain environments. 

What really drives change in organisations - and what quietly kills it? Why do some initiatives gain traction while others fade away, even when the intent is strong?
Originally trained as a physicist and now a strategy practitioner, Jean brings a distinctive perspective on why organisations rarely behave in the neat, predictable ways our plans assume.

We discuss why traditional approaches to strategy often struggle in complex systems, how power and relationships shape outcomes inside organisations, and what leaders can do when cause and effect are not clear.

If you're interested in complexity thinking, strategy under uncertainty and leading organisational change, this conversation offers a practical way to think about the messy reality of organisational life.

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live

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Transcript

00:00) Hi and welcome to the org dev podcast. So what really drives change in organizations and what quietly kills it? Why does some initiatives build real traction while others fade out even when the intent is strong? Anyone who's tried to execute a strategy, shift a culture, implement a new technology, or lead through uncertainty has felt that gap between what we intend to happen and what actually unfolds.

(00:25) And it's often not about the plan, it's the way things actually interact. And that's a space our esteemed guest understands deeply. We're absolutely delighted to be joined by Dr. Jean Bolton today. She brings a distinctive blend of scientific learning and training, senior strategy and change experience, and a longstanding interest in complexity and dowist thinking, especially idea that progress often comes from working with the greater things rather than forcing them.

(00:50) Gene is a theoretical physicist by background and studied at Oxford University and then the University of Cambridge. Her field of study was quantum physics and she then moved into engineering, strategy, organizational consultancy and hands-on management as well. Gan has been deeply involved in the science and philosophy of complexity.

(01:07) She teaches worldwide post-graduate programs in international development, systemic change, engineering, holistic science, management, sustainability, and community engagement. I don't know how she finds the time to do it. She's also a fellow at the Institute of Physics and a visiting academic with the department of social and policy sciences at the University of Bath and with the Cranfield School of Management.

(01:29) In 2019, she was appointed as a research fellow at Stellenbrush Institute for Advanced Study in South Africa and she's authored two brilliant books embracing complexity and the dar of complexity published in 2024 and inevitably Danny is now for those audio viewers is showing the book and all of the brilliant post-it notes from as well.

(01:48) The reason why we have loved to invite Gene on is because she has a lovely accessible way of writing that really opens up a whole new way of seeing the world. Just to kick us off, so you've been, as Gary said, you've been exploring that kind of science of complexity and its implications for organizations and individuals and globally.

(02:11) And you've just written that book, The Dow of Complexity. That's your latest book. So why did you write that book and who did you have in mind as the reader when you were writing it? >> I guess one of the the the things that I feel exercised about in this in this kind of idea of the world being complex is is it if you like the world is complex whether we like it or not.

(02:31) It's not a kind of it's not a choice. If we if we ignore that complexity it doesn't go away. We just do a worse job of of of living and working in the world. So that so it comes from that kind of strong belief. It's it's you know it's complex but that's not the same as just going it's complex get over it you know it's complex tough uh bickies it's it's the science of complexity um has a lot to tell us about the nature of that complex world which then helps us to live and work well within it.

(03:04) So, I came across complexity thinking a well probably well long a long long a long time longer than I care to admit but um certainly by the 1990s and probably earlier and it really made sense to me and through um a a variety of coincidences I started to work with Peter Allen at Cranfield University who had been a posttock and had worked with India Priagene.

(03:30) So I was in this lovely position of being able to understand the the the science of complexity through the horse's mouth so to speak. He was a theoretical physicist and so was I by background. So it gave me a way to actually discuss it with him. And although I was more by this time I'd done an MBA I'd been in management and management consultancy I was able to kind of in a in a sense translate and and work with with his ideas but really understand them deeply.

(03:59) So it was a great privilege to be able to do that and that led into the first book. But the this this idea of what is complexity, not a model of complexity, not a simplification of complexity, but as a scientist, what are we talking about when we talk about the complex world is what's really driven one of the reasons that I've written this book.

(04:20) And there's a tradition through um the the um the science of open systems that that really was coined, I think, in my view, by um by Ilia Priagene and and others too. But I I've that's the tradition that I've been interested in. Similarly, biologists um were Stuart Calfman, Matarana and Verea um Brian Goodwin, you know that that there was a kind of tradition of biology as well, which was really in a scientific way was saying, well, how do things change? How do things self-regulate? You know, what does what does flow mean? So they had

(04:56) very similar ontologies, worldviews coming from this tradition of of um the the the thermodynamics, the physics of open systems. And when we talk about open systems, what we mean is um that the classical science assumes that a system is closed. So when Newton looks at the the physics of the planets going around the sun, you assume nothing can get in and out of this box where you can then do the maths.

(05:26) the mass is practical but as Priagene pointed out most situations of interest are open to their wider context and it's the kind of the the exchange of energy and resources with the wider context that allows patterns and form to emerge. So that's um that was you know very interesting for me to look at at this kind of real grounded science through physics and biology and say you know well what does that look like in practice? So that was one reason for writing this book.

(05:55) >> The the other theme that that that I brought into this book and it's obviously called the the Dao of complexity is something that Peter Allen recognized um many years ago. I tell the story at the beginning of the book of of Peter Allen rocking up at a, you know, having been to a meeting in London and came back with this this copy of the Dao DeQing uh and said, you know, look at this.

(06:19) The introduction to this reads just like a complexity theory textbook. And I was already interested in dowoism, but it was like, wow. So I so I took the book off him obviously and nicked it and uh and read it and it really entranced me. know this this question of how 2 and a half thousand years ago in China could they come up with such a similar worldview to all this highuting science stuff and end up in the same place.

(06:47) Maybe there's something in it. It's more than an opinion. Maybe maybe we're understanding something that's a quite a grounded understanding of of the way the world works. And if we understood that better, would we do um a better job of it? So that was the kind of um the the the impetus for writing the book and and I wanted to write the book for for people that weren't weren't scientists or weren't steeped in these ideas to find it accessible and um you know I I I really try and write in very ordinary language. Um you know that's my that's

(07:23) my intention and it it came to me it was kind of um a journey of writing the book. It drove the publishers a bit mad because in in a way the book emerged and they don't like that. They want they want you to tell them at the beginning what you're going to write and I kept going well yes but you know I was just thinking um they they sort of they were very accepting of me working in that way but I wrote it in short pieces >> in a in a bit like the way the Dao Deq Ching itself is written.

(07:51) short, slightly um paradoxical, overlapping pieces that that kept trying to drill down into ideas from different angles. And I I wanted to write a book that allowed you to explore the nuance of these ideas, not just go, "Oh, emergence. I've got that. I've done emergence before, you know, tick." But what does it really mean? you know when when I for example came across a podcast by Stuart Calfman talking about emergence and I've you know this is a field I've worked in literally for decades and I'm going oh yes how interesting I hadn't looked at

(08:22) it from that point of view. So I wanted to write a book that both interrogated the the core ideas from different angles but very much through stories and examples and challenges got people to think about what it meant for how to live and work in in the world not just in in organizations but looking at global challenges but also looking at what does it tell me about me you know what does it mean to say I'm an open complex system and pri one of his first books was from being to becoming.

(08:56) And what he was emphasizing in that statement is this view of the complex world is a processual world view. It's always becoming. It's it's and the paradox is it's the very movement in a self-regulating system. It's the very allowance of movement that creates stability. So that's a sort of paradox in that sense.

(09:19) But we have this idea of things are always changing. They're always adjusting. They're always moving. they're always flowing. Sometimes they adapt, sometimes they don't elapse adapt. They collapse or they get locked into um equal and very power-driven and rigid stretches. Um for example, if when we look at the our global world at the moment.

(09:38) So I wanted to really emphasize this idea of process complexity and a processional um world view which I haven't invented it. It was it was something that Priagene um talked about, but I have emphasized perhaps and brought to the four in I hope a fresh way. So that's um that's what I've um how I've written it and why and who it was for. Fabulous.

(10:00) I really appreciated the the structure of it and the the kind of vignettes of kind of just to get you thinking at things different ways. So, the other thing that's probably worth noting is the illustrations that are kind of dotted throughout the >> the book that where did they come from and what were they >> Oh, that's a that's a terrific story.

(10:15) Um, most of them I I I persuaded my long-suffering publisher to let me source the the illustrations myself. And I had a really strong idea about the this book, you know. I I wanted it in in black and white. I wanted the page layout so that every section started on the right hand side, you know. I had I had this real visual I quite like design and visual images, you know, so it mattered to me.

(10:43) But through uh Facebook, I I discovered uh somebody I knew a little bit in in F where I live in my local town who not wasn't an illustrator but just kept putting up stuff on on Facebook and it was really nice art. So I went to see him and said you know do you think we could work together to um find a way to illustrate the book and it was itself it was a really interesting journey because how do you do that you know I I wasn't going you know I want you to draw this I was um I was trying to co-create with him a kind of feel of an image that conveyed a sense of of

(11:19) something a sense of unraveling or a sense of flow or a sense of you know a very you know rigid structure and we kept meeting. This was over quite a long time and we found that the best way to work was we'd find some images in Pinterest that that I liked and kind of conveyed something. But we then had to talk about what it was I was seeing in them.

(11:45) So what was the sense the quality that I was trying to portray so that he could be both um inspired by the image but also inspired by by what I was hoping to convey through the image and we got better and better at it. It was it was incredibly interesting. And for example, the cover image, which I hadn't wanted to put on the cover, but when the publishers saw it, they said, "You have to have this on the cover.

(12:08) " And he did that really quickly. And we found a picture. And there's something about the quality of the silence it conveys. You know, that the the little boy is um you know, walking on a beach, you know, he's it's it's got an internal focus. It's a moving focus. It's got water. you know it was just it grabs you as a kind of serious inner thinking book doesn't it from just from that image so most of it was through him some of it there were some quite interesting stories of working with a group in F who was supporting Ukrainian artists and loving

(12:43) some of their work they had an art exhibition and having this engagement with a woman living in Kev over the last couple of years and uh conveying she she I had two of her images in the book and they just they just got me and um and I I was able to work with her through translators, you know, and um to work out what we were trying to do.

(13:06) So yes, it's it's um it's been a sort of political thing and and a very enjoyable itself a path, you know, about relationship and conveying intent and you know, a co-creative endeavor. So it's it's it's sort of I wanted the book and the writing of the book in a sense to be a representation of the path that the book is about.

(13:27) So that the medium is the message. So we've talked about the word complexity and we like we like a definition on the orde podcast because people the audience will be at different points in their understanding. So how do you describe complexity and how does that shaped your view of organizations? >> So there's I find it difficult to say something succinct about complexity unfortunately.

(13:50) Um I I I was I get this all the time, you know, in pubs like, "Well, what is complexity?" It's like, "Oh, no, not again." Um the the the the science of complexity, which is what I'm interested in, is the science of open systems. And by um I I don't always use the word system either, but what I'm talking about, if I give you an example of a family, a family is a good example of a small open system.

(14:17) So what do I mean? Well, we wouldn't forget with it being a family that a family is comprised of of people interacting relationally and affecting each other. So so there's a diversity. The things in the family like the people are changing and and affecting each other. So I'm I'm both affected by you know when I go and see my mom I'm not quite the same person as as when I'm talking to you, you know.

(14:42) So there's a way in which I shift in relationship and some of that as a family culture stays with you you know and and the family culture remains and some aspects of it kind of are more context specific. So if you look at the at a family the the characteristics it has of of a of a complex situation if I put it that way is it's open to the wider context.

(15:07) you know, grandma might might come to stay, people go to school, you know, we buy a dog. There's there's things going on in on in it. So, it's open. It's diverse and it's relational. There's a there's a relational reflexivity. So, I affect my brother, my brother affects me back. If my sister's there, too, my brother and I's relationship is slightly different.

(15:29) You know, it's it's all kind of moving. But in in a kind of adaptive family, you often find that there would be certain patterns of relationships and patterns of doing things that would sustain. A good adaptive family, if dad can't cook the tea, then mom can cook the tea. If grandma comes to stay, people move the bedrooms around.

(15:51) It doesn't seem to matter. And let's say if there was a fire in the house, the family would be able to regroup maybe in another house and find their way. That would be an adaptive patterned response that's co-created. It's continually refreshed by those relational interactions and norms and ways of doing things, but yet it's flexible at the same time.

(16:11) It's got that paradox of both. And so that would be an example of a complex system. And and an organization in a sense is is no different. It's just bigger. It's got people in it that are interacting. And an ecology has got plants and animals in it. But but the the complexity perspective doesn't forget that there's a sort of micro level, a granular level.

(16:35) And it's the kind of reflexivity that we're taking account of at that level that then allows us sometimes to build up to cultures or norms or patterns of relationship that can seem relatively stable. But I I want to emphasize that for a lot of people, complexity and complex complex adaptive systems, for example, is a phrase that's used a lot.

(16:54) But who said it was a system? You know, that's that's an assumption. Some sometimes things, you know, morph into, you know, where are the boundaries? You know, how how are their boundaries? And who said it was adaptive that that the science of complexity says sometimes things adapt, sometimes they collapse, sometimes they become chaotic.

(17:15) You know, a family is still a family, but some families are very rigid and hierarchical. And you know, maybe if there was a fire and the main, you know, the m or the dad in charge wasn't there, people wouldn't know what to do. Some families are very chaotic. You know, they have very few repeating patterns. You know, whether you get fed and when and who does what is much more chaotic, but they're still interacting.

(17:38) They're still complex situations, but we mustn't assume in the science of complexity that things necessarily adapt or are stable or can have defined boundaries. that the science of complexity will will tell you in what ways are things stable and why? In what in what ways are things unraveling and why? In what ways might they be, you know, locking in power and starting to become very rigid, you know, that they're the kind of questions I want to ask and also that that many of those things are going on at the same time. So, I was talking with some

(18:10) international development students about DRC, the Congo, and they were saying, "Well, surely that's just chaotic." myself and their lecturer were going well yes you know many aspects of that are chaotic but within that you will find tribal structures and tribal relationships that will continue or family relationships or the way you know some aspects of farming you know that there's always in a situation there will be some aspects that are more stable and adaptive and there will be other aspects that aren't but we have we shouldn't

(18:41) preconceive that we're in one regime or the other it's about patterning So the the the the real my oneliner about this would be it's about understanding patterning and I use that word rather than systems because it's more subjective and it's more fuzzy deliberately you know what is what is the pattern of behavior in your family you know if I was a social worker you don't want me to come in and tell you it's not an exact science there would be something that we might agree is a is a norm and a way of working in

(19:13) your family rather than yours so what we're interested in is the emerging, stabilizing and ultimate dissolving of patterns of behavior and relationships. That's the core for me of of the theory of complexity. >> I wish I'd met you 25 years ago when someone was trying to explain complexity to me for the first time.

(19:33) That's so interesting. I love that the idea of patterning. So, do you mind if I just ask a couple of questions about what we've just shared there because there's there's so much to unpack in that. >> Um, if if we use the family example, patterns aren't necessarily always between individuals. They can be almost intergenerational, can't they? So, could could there be an instance where a family there is a pattern between two people in a previous generation that gets sort of handed down or is it just something that's generated between two

(19:55) people in the moment? >> So, I'm not talking about a a pattern between two people even. I'm talking about, you know, I might come supposing if you looked at organization culture, suppose I was a social worker and came to visit your family. I might say that one of the behavioral patterns I notice here is a calmness, a regularity of meal times, a willingness to help each other.

(20:20) They would be behavioral patterns that that have resulted out of reflexive relationships between the whole family, but are are kind of abstractions of of or descriptions of a general way of behavior, if you see what I mean. Now, some of those patterns, you're completely right and it's one of the things I emphasize a lot in the book is about the importance of history because some of those patterns will have been established long ago.

(20:48) They will be almost like, you know, the way what my mom did. You know, you either do the opposite, don't you? Or you do the same or you mean to do the opposite and you do the same. You know, it's when people say you be turning into your mother, you know, it's like everybody's nightmare. So, um so there's there's a historically shape.

(21:07) So some patterns of relationships. If you if you looked at how is France different from the UK, you know, some of those historically shaped cultural norms have sustained over a long time. You know, it's it's I if I sometimes talk about the town where I live, you know, what's made Froom have the culture it has.

(21:26) That's a pattern, behavioral pattern. It's it's it's co-created through relationships, but it's more than between two people. and what you're dealing with always in in change in transitions. So complexity is both saying what's stable and how does it transition? What makes things stabilize and what what makes things transition is you will find that sometimes um patterns will will collapse.

(21:51) Sometimes they go underground and sometimes they collapse. So if you if you look at some of the ethnic tensions, if I can it's tensions is a cool word for some of what's going on in the world. They they go back centuries, you know, they have never gone away. They might go underground for a bit. But until they kind of surfaced and healed and and dealt with, and that's an extremely difficult thing to do, th those patterns are kind of still there.

(22:14) There are other things that become new patterns. So, in in a sense, the the neoliberal pattern has been a relatively new one, you know, over the the last 30 years or or so. It's become established as a new norm, and it wasn't particularly there. So and the old norms, you know, perhaps are still there in vestigages.

(22:35) So that's how I would think about it. But bringing in the historical aspect is really important >> and and I guess the the invitation to participate in those patterns is very strong, isn't it? And and and often it's unconscious as well. So you talked about the word reflexivity. What what does that mean? And how can people practice that? >> Well, I think I think you you you bring in in a good point and it's the same in in organizations.

(22:59) What the way I try and describe complexity in in the book is not just a sort of real thing about model you know real things interacting in a way that could be modeled but we all bring our our unconscious our history to work you know that when you're for example I sometimes talk about a tuning so supposing you were a consultant or or new to an organization and you join a meeting then part of what you're doing is you're trying to attune tune to the vibe, you know, the ways people do things, who's who, how's where does the power lie, how does decisions

(23:34) get made here, you know, what's the way of behaving? So, there's a kind of attunement. Now, when you do that attunement, you're doing that unconsciously. Oh, or you might be doing it deliberately, but your your intuition, your kind of unconscious processes are part of you sensing into that. >> One of the founding fathers in the organization development field is Kurt Leuen.

(23:55) A lot of his thinking is carried through to today, but one of the sort of the the change models he kind of brought with him hasn't necessarily stood the test of time and and that is the freeze unfreeze refreeze approach to change. What what's your perspective on that as a as an approach and how does it sort of compare against complexity? >> That's a great question Garen.

(24:13) Well, I think that if I was if I was trying to change supposing which I you know we've all done you know I go into an organization and they want to create some sort of change okay part of what I'd be doing and I go through this period of of sort of diagnostic of apprehending things and I'm trying to through through you know reading things talking to lots of different people talking to people at different levels in the organization if I can talking to customers and suppliers people have left the organization. You know, trying to

(24:44) get as rich a picture as I can of the way this organization works. I'm I'm looking for what's really what what's really tight and strong that needs preserving. So, for example, I did some work years ago for Unilever. You know, Uni Lever talks a lot about their sustainability culture. And so, you know, part of what I was doing was proddding it, you know, and kind of saying to people, is this, you know, is this just pretend, you know, and everybody's like, "No, it is not pretend.

(25:17) " You know, we, you know, and you kind of felt that, my felt sense was this is this is real. It's not just a pretend, you know, they didn't just parrot these words. They people deeply felt, not everybody obviously, but people deeply felt it. So in terms of of change that was something that was that was not frozen but was certainly embedded and one wouldn't want to do anything to un unpick it you know to to destabilize that but you're kind of looking in a mixture of are there are there new growing shoots are there new things starting to bubble up that we

(25:51) could really protect and support in growing or are there things that we really are trying to to help collapse. I think that that that it's all true. So I think the idea of sometimes it it's a bit like the one goes who goes you know the emperor has no clothes isn't it? you sometimes as a consultant or as as a new manager are trying to find ways to destabilize to disrupt you know to bring attention to something and you are in a sense trying to to unfreeze but there's sometimes when you alongside that are seeing that the job is sometimes about

(26:27) cohering and I think there I do have a um in the first book I wrote there's a thing about the life cycle of a forest as a way in into this it is talking about you know collapse which is almost like the unfreezing and then the refreezing is how it grows. But I think I I see all that going on in different amounts, but I'm I'm looking at all that at the same time.

(26:50) And sometimes the job seems to be golly, these guys just, you know, they need a bomb up them, you know, they're so rigid because, you know, how do I how do I how do I find anything to rock, you know, their certainty, their self, you know, their complacency. And then you know there are other other situations where you think what's really needed here is to for them to get some confidence that they're doing some good things.

(27:10) We just need to protect and cohhere and then for them to learn from each other and it's all at the same time. I think I think I I don't disagree with Lou. I just think it's there it's more complex to do that >> and it sounds like there's a certain amount of precision about it. I think sometimes we um see senior leaders that are given the mandate to disrupt things and it's kind of like a blind disruption whereas I guess your sort of proposal there is sort of stabilize and strengthen what's working what's what's emerging that's potentially good and

(27:39) could be the vehicle for positive change and also disrupting and shifting what could what's stuck or harmful. >> Yes. So I make a a big thing in in the book and in my work about differentiating between what I call apprehending the context. So spending time not just on my own but looking at the past present into the future looking systemically looking at different aspects to it.

(28:06) If I was doing it for a region, um, I'd be looking at as as sort of the political, economic, social, environmental, you know, those kind of strategic things, but looking at them more systemically and looking at them more his dynamically, you know, looking at looking at how those things are emerging. So you you get this very rich complex picture and then you're helping managers and you can do the same thing within an organization or within the context say well so kind of what what's you know how do you see this you know what's stable what isn't and where are

(28:38) the kind of nodes and the opportunities and the and the cracks you know so you're using you're doing a lot of that and you're using judgment but starting through multiple perspectives to hone in on you know like sustainability. That's a really important value. You know, let's really make sure that we we test whether what we're doing would send complex the wrong messages to our staff.

(29:01) So, you're you're you're doing a lot of apprehending with this complex world, but out of that you then start to say, well, why don't we start here or here's an opportunity. So it then becomes in in a sense more programmable. But but don't don't do that until you've really worked quite a you know in quite some depth with with the richer picture.

(29:22) I talk about um simplicity on the other side of complexity. And what I mean by that is if you stick with the rich picture, sometimes you go, "Oh, here's a hill and here's a valley, you know, and here's a little stream. I've got those now. Now I can work with those." Whereas if you simplify, if you say, well, we're only going to look at this part of the problem and we're defining the boundaries here, you might miss the very things that that are the systemic opportunities that you wouldn't see until you, you know, hoover out. And

(29:53) that's what um I think the phrase is for simplicity this side of complexity, I wouldn't give a fig. But simplicity on the other side of complexity or if you embrace the rich picture and then stand back from it that's really where you start to say do you know what I'm starting here or that's worth doing or this is important and I think you know part of what you have to do in organization development is try to help leaders gain more confidence in their in their systemic thinking and and their their use of judgment and I think we

(30:25) train that out of people in today's world much more people are more scared than they used to be to use their judgment. >> I think it's really and yeah, the simplicity on the other side of complexity is one of the things that struck that stuck with me from kind of reading the book. I really enjoyed that. And I think it's also it's countercultural, isn't it? If you know, you've got a new a consultant going in or a new leader joining an organization, there's this kind of pressure and this rush to make a difference. You need to

(30:50) >> deliver something. So taking that time to step back and >> see the big picture and the richer picture and apprehend is is can be really counterultural and quite difficult to to to do for some people. >> Yes. I remember one client I I knew um I knew the HR director personally you not very well but I knew her and I was working for one of the directors and and apparently the director phoned her up and said is this woman for real? you know, she wants to do all this diagnostic stuff.

(31:21) And um and Susan, who was the charge director, said, "No, it's okay. You can trust her." And the the way I sell it is to say, "Look, you know, you pay me for the diagnostic. I'm going to work with all your people. So, I'm already moving people along and getting them to think differently >> and then we'll decide what to do and then we'll do a pilot.

(31:40) " So, we're not doing a big thing. We're not looking, we're not doing a whole top down big thingy that I'm selling you because I've done it somewhere else. I'm saying we're going to completely customize it for you, but all you've got to pay for is a diagnostic and that's going to be team building, bringing people along, getting them to think differently.

(31:56) Then we'll try something out and see what happens and learn from doing something. So, it feels in putting it that way, it feels safer and cheaper and and gets them more comfortable. And and the other thing I that I've always done is if they go, "Oh, no, no, we don't want to do that." I say okay well I'm not the consultant for you then they listen you know what I mean it's a good selling it's a good say going I'm walking away it's it's like it works in souks certain parts of the world and it it works in um in organizations because they're so

(32:28) shocked that you're not going oh do anything for the money but it it it could be a really useful thing to do. >> Hi we're just pausing this interview for a moment. Have you ever finished an episode of the org dev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points? Us, too? So, we made one.

(32:47) It's called from pod to practice. And each week in our newsletter will share a two-page summary of the latest org dev episode. And it includes key takeaways, a reflection prompt, and one small action you can try. >> And it's all in a digital format with space at the end to add your own notes and reflections. And it's designed to help you take the learning from the podcast into your day-to-day work.

(33:06) So to get your copy, just sign up to our next step to better newsletter, the links in the show notes, or you can visit our website at www.distinction.live to get the latest from pod to practice in your inbox, and let us know what you think. We'd love to get your feedback. The other thing that we hear a lot of talk about is kind of certainty.

(33:22) And you know, complexity brings with it uncertainty. And it's how do you marry those things? How do you find a a way for people to move forward when everything's unpredictable? So what what's your view on kind of how leadership can kind of embrace complexity and that uncertainty but still help people move forward and not just be like paralyzed by the the complexity I guess >> because people have become very tuted in leftbrain thinking what people hear when you say things are uncertain is they hear chaotic so it's a bit like people

(33:52) feel it's better to pretend to be certain than to handle a level of ambiguity or uncertain but but the complex X world view doesn't say things are random. It says there's a level of uncertainty in how the future unfolds. Some sometimes the the present unfolds relatively predictably. Sometimes things emerge and the radically new appears.

(34:17) Uh so it's but it's not random. You know that the that the pathways that that that are possible the possible futures are not are not infinite. they they're constrained by what's already happened in the past and and by the context. So I I kind of try and reframe uncertainty is one thing.

(34:38) And then I find in working with organizations if I can possibly get away with it, I don't use any language of complexity. I mean it's because I've written books now people kind of want me to go in because of that. But back in the day I didn't use any language because it gets in the way. But I would use things like who have you been involved in in developing a business strategy? No. Yes, they say.

(35:00) And I say, well, and did it go to plan? You know, how many times does it go to plan? And and you know, by and large, most people say 90% of people say, "No, it didn't go to plan." And I say, "Well, why didn't it go to plan?" And then they describe the ontology of the complex world. You know, well, things happened that we didn't expect.

(35:19) You know, the world changed around us. We had new competitors. somebody left the organization, we were let down by another department. We didn't understand what was meant by. And they they they describe an emerging adapting complex world that sometimes does things that you really can't, you know, emergence is you can't really know what's going to emerge.

(35:41) Um it's not to say that things are radically new all the time, but sometimes they are. You have to bear that in mind. That's the first thing. So they're starting to go, well, you're you're right. And then we come up with examples of where when you pretend it's certain when it isn't, does it cost you more money? Is it effective? And so they kind of go, well, no, not really.

(36:00) It can be a waste of money. So then the both and and I talk a lot about, you know, we're neither certain nor is it chaotic. We're in a middle ground. Is well, let's plan, but what would you do in a complex world? You know, you've still got to plan. You know, your your finance director wants a plan.

(36:18) So what do you do differently then if if you if you know that things may not go to plan? Well, you review more often. You you adopt a portfolio approach. You pilot. You have a a range of stakeholders involved who are sensing into um either the changes in the project or in the environment. you know, do you have do do you actually listen to people telling you that things are not going to plan or sometimes, you know, I'm sure you've seen this, sometimes things go better to plan and they don't notice, you know, because they've got the plan, you know. So, so

(36:54) how do you both plan but attune to and have your radar out there, your antenna out to see what actually is happening as opposed to, you know, I've got a plan, I've chucked it over a wall and those people are implementing. So, it's not, you know, it doesn't seem as scary if you use those kind of words.

(37:13) You don't have to have a a kind of intellectual discourse about the nature of uncertainty. You just get them to talk to you about what they've seen as uncertain and what are pragmatic ways of both planning but reviewing more often having more strands to your plan. You know, adopting a portfolio approach or or just making sure this is really a big one.

(37:34) I mean people used to talk about managing by walking about and you know do we spend enough time just asking people you know asking our sales guys or asking our customers you know do you find anything new or different or interesting? Is anything changing? what isn't working, what is working. You know, you don't have to doesn't have to take a lot of time just to have that relationships and it's part of a leadership.

(37:57) I I think it's part of what every leader should do. You have to build relationships such that you have that sensing into the wider context and you pick up those nuances of of what's working, what isn't, and sometimes what's working better than you could have possibly imagined. I I I really like what you're saying there because it gives to to a certain extent leaders that might be feeling overwhelmed a sense of agency as well, isn't it? Because often it's like complexity is this big thing out here and anything goes wrong, we just blame it on

(38:22) complexity. But what you're I guess what you're proposing there as well is that do you know what this all happens in the micro, you know, you're just picking up on signals earlier. You're just uh getting people to understand that there's a lot more options available to them that there actually are.

(38:35) And it's not one and done. We're not fixed. We have to stay relatively sort of nimble in how we approach things. And it does give you more agency. And I I think you know one of the one of the unintended consequences of of kind of um in a sense a lot more data being available is I do think that that managers have become much more nervous about doing things that they can't prove will work or they can't measure it has worked.

(39:00) Back in the day when when there wasn't so much data I think people were much more encouraged to be a bit entrepreneurial to to make judgments to learn from doing and I think it really behooves us in an organization development sense to to really develop leadership qualities that that do help people to set an environment where you're saying to staff you know well try try it out and see what happens come and tell me or anybody got any great ideas? You know, what do you think isn't working? You know, it's not rocket science. It's what you might

(39:35) do with your family. If you're trying to be a good parent, you know, you try it out and see what happens and it worked with that kid, it didn't work with that kid. You you ask them what worked. You know, you have a relationship. You you know, grandma gives her opinion whe whether you want it or not.

(39:51) And you know, so so it goes on, you know, but we we have to we have to remember that organizations are the same thing. They're not a different kind of thing. I think those are natural leadership qualities that that have got kind of beaten out of people into this kind of um I don't know whether if you know the work of of Bill Tolbert and and the idea of developmental stages uh in in the way people are and what they talk about is that when we're younger you know we we want a more in a way a concrete rational world you know we we you know I used to

(40:24) have keep notebooks with my pocket money in and what I spent it on and things like that there's a sort of attention to data and a kind of desire for certainty. But as we go through more developmental stages, we get we get more comfortable with ambiguity. We get more comfortable with making judgments.

(40:42) We we can take in wider information and make sense of it and see the patterns in it. And you know we we've we've lost that ability because you know sometimes I've I've said to clients you know I've walked away from clients who say if the first question they ask me is how I'm going to measure its success.

(40:59) I think oh no you know it's not like it's a bad question but they need to ask me how are we going to do it. Do you see what I mean? You know what's your ideas about doing it not how are we going to measure its success? You know it's the wrong question to start with. It's a mechanical question. So I think I think there's something about how do we retrain people to do the things that they used to take for granted in in our human nature and make them feel more confident about you know trying things out using their judgment you know using judgment on complex

(41:29) subjective data and I think that I think the thing this is why the word complexity is so difficult you know if I say to my mom what's complexity then she means you know we know nothing it's a mess you know it's a complex world what the science of complexity is saying is but it's always patterned. There's always things going on that that we can kind of tune into.

(41:51) And yes, we sometimes need to notice these growing shoots of change or collapses, but we're not we don't have to know everything in order to know anything. You know, that is not what we're saying with complexity. It's a mis you know, in some way, not that it was my choice, but it's not a very helpful word for what we're doing.

(42:07) If we called it the the science of patterning, you know, we'd we'd have more traction. it doesn't sound as scary. >> One of the terms you come up with in the book which is is a really nice one I'm going to pronounce is sagacity. Is that right? >> Probably guess it talks about like it's like a what leaders have in terms of like discerning what to do.

(42:27) So know when to act, when to hold back, when to sense, when to interrupt. Like h how do you learn that thing? Or is it more of a sort of a felt sense? It's kind of sort of a tacet way of working. So I think I think sagacity is a kind of it's the idea the difference between knowledge and wisdom. The sage and it's a it's a great dowist word you know has developed wisdom.

(42:52) So it's you know like how do how do we develop wisdom in in our lives? It might be all sorts of wisdom you know the wisdom of how to hold yourself in difficult situations or the wisdom of how to be a good parent or a good leader. It's partly an an intention to cultivate yourself. This is a this is a very dowist view. We've we emphasize in our world a very transactional what are the me you're a leader you know how can I measure your out outputs and outcomes in in in a way but sagacity or wisdom maturity it comes over time through making mistakes through getting feedback

(43:29) through feeling safe through being being allowed the opportunities to experiment so I think if we're wanting to develop our staff you know we we can set up a kind of culture of or you know I was talking about it in in this meeting I was holding yesterday where uh people were talking about that we'd set up a space where people felt safe enough to disagree you know or safe enough to to give each other feedback you know so so as a leader how do you how do you decide to do that you know how do you both encourage people but encourage some

(44:03) dissent or there's a there's a lovely phrase that one of the political writers used uh called agonistic dissent And what she means is how how do we set up a way in which we we don't have conflict you know it doesn't turn into conflict but we but we feel safe enough to go do you know what I don't agree with that you know I think you're wrong on that and that's seen as a positive you know as a kind of it's done in a relational way you haven't lost your relationship so I I think that sagacity is something that we need to you know

(44:32) for organization development people we need to consciously help clients to develop and set up a safe enough space for people to experiment, get it wrong, and hone their judgment, you know. So, so sometimes, for example, I do, this is a a particular form of this, but if we're doing a big mapping exercise about trying to understand the systemic, you know, these hills and valleys I was talking about in in the context, and they're saying, well, can you pre tell me precisely how to do it? And I'm saying, well, no, I can't really. You

(45:02) know, it's like you're trying to look at things thematically, group post notes. And they say, well, how do we know how to group them? and I'm saying, "Well, I don't really know. You'll have to talk to each other and see what seems to emerge." And people aren't used to that anymore.

(45:17) It's so they they go through like, "I hate this. I don't know what you're talking about. You know, can we have a can we have somebody new ask us these awful things?" But if you can help people and hold it there, that's when you start to gain confidence, isn't it? >> Yeah. that role of holding space for people to work in that new way is a really important and not kind of short circuit that this is too hard do it for us or >> give us a template or a structure or a framework that saves us from having to go through the pain. Yeah. So, a lot of

(45:43) the organizations we work with are going growing really quickly. So, what are some of the things they can do to help them stay flexible as they grow? >> Well, let me if if if you will let me just I I'd like to just go back one to build up to to that. And um one of the areas I used to do a lot of work in was organization design.

(46:02) Interestingly, as a kind of OD strand of of work, it's kind of gone out of fashion. How do you design an organization? And I think with it's something that's really interested me and I think it's a it's a kind of moving feast and it's changing. How do you design structures that are adaptive? you know, you have, you know, to some extent with with organizations as they get bigger and one of the issues, as you know, with with growing organizations, small entrepreneurial organizations often have very little structure and then there's a sort of need for more

(46:32) clarity about who's doing what and and um and that sort of thing. And that can be quite a painful process. One of the things I still think is useful is to try and get your head around what are the core business processes? What are the core processes that are needed in order to deliver an outcome to a customer or a beneficiary or or whoever it is? Are you clear about what's supportive and what's what's key? And I think that sometimes sometimes the tail wags the dog, doesn't it? Usually finance, you know, finance

(47:05) are bigger than HR. HR are quite big but you know have we forgotten you know where the flows it's like where are the flows it's back to my you know to that word that com that that process complexity is a lot about understanding flows so you're both trying to put some structure in that but structure around the flows around the natural way that that an organization needs to work to get stuff out efficiently and effectively to its its beneficiaries or or its customers.

(47:35) So if you grow, you need to kind of build in the ability to to adapt as well, you know. So that might be that you review quite often, you know, are we are we in what ways is our world changing and are we still adaptive to that? So you build in a kind of adaptive questioning, but sometimes you build in enough power in the organization because as you know the difficulty with organizations is they become driven by power.

(47:59) So when people have got an empire, they don't want to let go of their empire. So how are you going to deal with that at the beginning when you think about it? You know, how do you develop some shared power? Is it a sort of matrix where there's genuinely a tension in in power structures that that that keep you on your toes a little bit without making it totally random? And and are you doing that around the natural flow rather than what people regard as their their hierarchies? They're not they're not easy answers, but that work of assessing of of how

(48:33) best to help an organization structure itself and and develop its processes, but in in a way that's still responsive and and doesn't you have to name power, I think, a lot in this because it's it's not that people don't know how to do that. It's often that just power gets in the way.

(48:52) Nobody dares tell the power seekers. Um I I I learned the hard way. I was doing some organization design work many many many years ago. One of the senior directors looked at me in one meeting. He said, "You are trying to get rid of my job, aren't you?" And it's just and I was quite young and it's like, you know, and um funnily enough, he was really opposed to everything I did after that.

(49:15) It was very difficult. But you know, how do you how do you have that conversation about power and how you stop power getting the way of an adaptive organization? And when when you say adaptive, I don't mean in in a lot of this that it's endlessly adaptive. It's things things aren't endlessly emerging and we can't be endlessly adaptive, but we have to develop a a way that deals with power that ever so often we go, are we on track here or are things getting in the way of us dev, you know, responding to a changing environment. I

(49:46) don't know whether that's helps. >> No, it is because I think I think that it sort of brings in an intentionality about it because things often just become what they become. So people don't necessarily just assume loads of power in one shift. It's just a project at a time or a bit of a a movement of people very quickly and all of a sudden it becomes a power block, doesn't it? But we don't we often don't have the space, the courage or the opportunity to to do that, do we? >> No. No. And I think it is one that

(50:13) having people from outside it is a place for consultants when you're actually getting an organization to grapple with cow because you know we can say it from the outside in ways that it's harder to say from the inside and um it is a real issue. I mean you know some people argue well we should we don't you know that it's also true that the espouse design of an organization is very different from what actually happens.

(50:40) So as a consultant you have got to get into the informal processes and what how how decisions are really made and how work really flows not the pretend version. So you are working as a consultant with the with the kind of you know how do you harmonize in in some ways the how do you get the the formal and the informal to to make more sense together.

(51:01) um with one very large organization I worked with. I remember, you know, and again, I I I really like all my work in in OD kind of works. I I really want to talk to as many people as I can at different levels on their own. And you know, and people say things like, well, I've been here two years.

(51:19) I finally worked out how to get a decision made. Some organizations you say, can I see your organization structure? And they don't have one. These are these have been global organizations. Well, how do you know how to do things? Oh well, you know, you have to learn over years to, you know, the the machinations. And there's there's things like you know some sometimes um one function you you know you'll have HR's global supply chains are regional and sales are local and then the the joint decision- making doesn't happen because you've got power

(51:49) at different different levels and you've got in the M I think I'm of the view that in the main you need to build enough systemic power at the level at the at the place where things get sold to customers that people there have the flexibility and you build stretches behind it, you know, in terms of compliance and access to resources.

(52:10) But, you know, you start to hear bonkers stories sometimes about, you know, well, we've got to we've got to adhere to the global manufacturing standard, but we're in Indonesia and we can't get any engineers that are actually trained in using those machines. And anyway, the machines are too big for our market, you know, and it's gets lost in this globalization that looks efficient from a global manufacturing position, but isn't when you look at the whole business model.

(52:38) So in the main I think going as close as you can to the customer and build building an organization systemically that can adapt there and then backfilling it with the stretches of support I is you know I'm sure 100 people would disagree with me about that and there's many examples where that wouldn't work but that's what I that's what's in my head generally in terms of what I've seen but I I wish this organization design question would would be more prominent again in OD work. I I do think it gets sidelined.

(53:06) >> Chris Moles writes about the importance of improvisation in organizations. So you know a manager will give an edict saying we will be doing this and then it's down to those informal networks that you talk about the and and how people will improvise to actually make things happen and they'll bend a rule here there or you know all those things and that's part of understanding the informal way an organization actually works isn't it? >> Yes.

(53:32) But I think I think it's not enough I'm not saying Chris is saying this, but it's not enough just to say, "Oh, well that's okay then. That's the informal network." It's you want to facilitate a way of working that harmonizes more the informal and the formal. Otherwise, you just end up with people who are very good at pretending things on one level and doing things at another level and it's not it's not very effective, you know? You see what I mean? you know, so so you need to be able to kind of surface and and talk about the difference between the formal and the

(54:00) informal and say, "Well, maybe we need to change the formal a bit. Maybe this informal is really working well." So, it's always true that you will improvise and but you can have cultures that that support you. I I want to be able to reward somebody if they've used Oh, I I'll just tell you this this story.

(54:19) It was a my mom was in hospital very poorly. She was moving hospitals and when I was coming up by train, she lived in Yorkshire and when I got to this second hospital, she'd been moved early. The the ambulance had come early and I couldn't find her. I knew what ward she was in. I couldn't find her. So I finally track her down in this day room.

(54:40) You know, my mother was a very um strong northern, you know, very strong character having hysterics. Absolutely. I've never seen her like that. Absolutely beside herself. and she'd been left in a day room with no food, no water, no medication for several hours. And um I was a little bit crossed to say the least.

(55:02) And and so I I trot off to find somebody. And I have this ridiculous conversation which is about well she hasn't been admitted so and I'm saying okay so well we haven't got a bed for her so she couldn't be admitted so we haven't admitted her and therefore she can have no food water we can't take her to the toilet we can't do anything and the rule is until they're admitted you can't do anything and because nobody was bothering taking out all stops to find her a bed they they didn't know anything about her she just had an operation she was in pain she'd been on

(55:33) morphine and there she was. And that's an example of where people get so captured by the formal system that that they see no point in bucking the system and acting informally because because if anything happened they'd get into trouble. You don't reward the nurse wasn't rewarded by going to badge of the doctor and saying, "Look, this lady's getting really distressed.

(55:55) We have to find a way of admitting her." Well, after I'd kicked up a bit of a fuss, they found a bed in 10 minutes and she she you know, we we looked at her medication and we're all on track. But do you see what I mean? We we we end up if we're not careful with the power of the formal structure, people feel, you know, and you can't blame the nurse, but it's not worth her while to buck the system to use her initiative.

(56:18) It's better to it's not her fault if the patient dies. It would be her fault if she did something against the system. And that's where I think we've we've got this tension between the two. That's an example of where the the formal structure worked. Sometimes the informal structure works. And then you get very power clever people who who wander around underneath the surface and that's not effective either.

(56:39) So >> So it's a fairly big question, but when you look back at your career and your work, what are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned that you you carry forward with you? >> I think the importance of being myself. I think I've become more comfortable with with the the qualities that are that are me. I mean, I've changed.

(56:54) I I do think we're always we're always changing. I think I'm still changing and learning and growing, but authenticity seems really important. And I'm more effective and happier and and generally more relational when I'm when I'm authentic. Even even when, you know, some of that authenticity is a bit edgy or it's not polished.

(57:18) I don't try and be polished. I think I try and be real. and people I think genuinely respond to, you know, authenticity in each other. So I I think I think that's something that I've I've learned. I think I've got more confident in my instincts, you know, as as I've as I've kind of developed and you kind of try things out and see what happens and if they work, you think you've you've learned something.

(57:43) I think my ability to deal with the big picture and complexity in that sense has probably has developed and I've I've learned better how to do that and and I think something I've I found myself thinking and writing about more and more really and I don't know that it's learned but it's certainly been reinforced is is is this idea of you know we are all connected that in this world if we want a resilient world it has to be resilient for everyone you know if we if we start acting at the expense of others. If we take and they

(58:16) have less or if we're doing it in relation to taking from the planet, you know, it won't it won't work in the end. and seeing the moment that that increasing inequality that that increase of, you know, the the the continuing lack of respect for the planet, the the way the climate is going, it it's just something about love, relationship, care, respect, you know, we're all in it together, has become really reinforced in me.

(58:47) And you know, one of the things that that people talk about is is about hope, for example, because you know, it's we live in a pretty dire world at the moment. The the amount of awful things that are going on has never been so many in my lifetime. I have not in my lifetime seen things that that are so awful in so very many ways in terms of inequality, conflict, climate change, you know, etc.

(59:10) Pop rising populism, you name it. It's it's pretty dire. So, you know, what gives me hope? Well, one thing that gives me hope is in a in an emerging complex world, you never know. So there's there's a sense in we, you know, it might look dire, but then who'd ever thought we'd end apartheite or end slavery or the the b the Berlin wall would would fall.

(59:32) You know, who you you go along, you think nothing's changing and then all of a sudden things have been going on under the surface and things and things do change and collapse. So complexity gives me hope in that sense. But but in another sense even if there isn't even if the hope is slight there's me here and now you know like all I've got control over at this moment in time is how I'm talking to you can I do that as well as I can with good heart you know can I give of myself let you see me and be authentic because that might be more effective in what I'm

(1:00:06) saying than if I'm kind of you know talking through a blank screen. So it it is like in some ways all we have to do if I put it that way is in this moment there are opportunities to act well to cultivate myself with others in mind to think about the future. I can do this well or badly and I might do it badly anyway but I can intend to do it well.

(1:00:25) I can intend to do it with good heart and I think I think that's something that that I've I've leared to trust more. The end never justifies the means. It doesn't matter what you think you're doing. You know if you if you lie in order to achieve something it's the lie that enters the system and you might never get to the end point.

(1:00:44) So how do I act just now in this moment? Sometimes this moment might be very big. I might be talking to you know a very senior person that really does have power and I influence them. Sometimes it's something small. Sometimes you don't know whether it's big or small. But but all I can do is is do my best in this moment.

(1:01:02) And I do think that I do think that's something I've really come to believe in. And it it's kind of releasing really because that's all I can do. I can just do my best now. I can't I am worried about the future. I do do things with an intention. You know the book is you know the book ends with a kind of strong intention to consider some of these global issues.

(1:01:21) So it is that is my activism as I say in the book you know to try and write and bring bring some attention to that and some ways of dealing with it. But I'm released in the fact that all I can do is be myself in the moment and try and act towards you, you know, and towards these questions with in my best way, you know, with with open heart.

(1:01:40) >> Jane, you're intensely wellqualified. You have three master's degrees. You have a doctorate. But how do you invest in your own learning development? How do you stay sharp? We're admiring your bookcase. And that's only one of three bookcases around you, isn't it? So, sorry. How do you invest in your learn? >> How do you stay sharp? >> Oh, well, I I love Yeah, that's a great question.

(1:02:07) So I'm thinking for example about you know I find myself thinking about new writing and I've been thinking about the the kind of being more explicit exploring more the idea of of the the inner and the outer world and um thinking about something that that the presencing institute have talked about fourth person knowing this is sort of transpersonal knowing so I get I kind of get you know I read something Somebody sent me something.

(1:02:36) I thought, "Wow, that's really interesting. How do I find out about that?" I'm I'm in study groups and book clubs. We've we've just been um doing studying Alfred North Whitehead who's who's a process philosopher. I'm working, you know, meticulously through um a book. I've been to sort of personal development type things.

(1:02:57) You know, I I went on a Buddhist retreat for a week, you know, where it's it's a lot to do with quietness and meditation and nature. So I'm I'm constantly I'm always reading something new. I love talking to people. I mean these kind of interactions I learn a lot from you know just from your questions or you know when I'm teaching you know like with undergraduates they ask something and it's like a gobsmackingly obvious simple question that I've never thought of or they tell me a story that just blows me away about about something. So I think

(1:03:27) it's partly it's approaching life as as a learning something that that Dowist talk about is we're we should always be cultivating ourselves. >> Obviously we'd recommend people pick up your books and read those but there if people have kind of you've sparked an interest in we've talked about today. Are there any particular books or podcasts or resources that you'd signpost people to? >> So Chris Mole's work I would recommend.

(1:03:49) You know I think Chris looks at issues of paradox. I like the way he talks about things. His podcasts and and um his work's very good. I think that that some of the people who are writing about relationality, I I really like I'm reading a book um which is was not an easy read, but a book on relationality for example.

(1:04:11) That's that's an interesting topic to look at. I love the work of Stuart Calfman in the field of complexity and he has lots of interesting podcasts as well. you know, he does real ranty pieces about, you know, emergence or something and, you know, I watched them five times. There's a fabulous book called process biology on process biology called everything flows.

(1:04:34) So I I quite like going to these more philosophical thinking pieces because I suppose I I don't know whether I did did say that but I think if you change your mindset or your ontology or your metaphysics even these big big words if you change the way you look at the world then in a sense finding methods and doing things differently seems more obvious.

(1:04:55) It's it's the bit that's hard to change is the way you understand the way the world is. So I think Einstein said, you know, you don't change anything unless you change the way you look at things. Books that make me think about that. And it's also it might it's not necessarily reading and thinking, you know, would it would be talking.

(1:05:13) I was decided I don't do enough creative things in, you know, I write and I sing, but I've been making um collage Christmas cards and it's terrific, you know, and it it somehow expands my mind in a different way. and the visual. I'm really interested in the way that art um some of some of the the pieces in this book, you know, talk about the role of art and poetry in looking at things.

(1:05:36) So, if you're looking to expand yourself, go in odd directions, you know, don't don't go down a rabbit hole. Don't go, I know about this. I want to find out more. Go sideways. What's poetry got to do with this now? What can we learn from that storytelling? I went to I went to this absolutely wonderful talk last week by an author called Janette Winteren and she's she's a she's an author I've followed for for years and um she's written a new book based on her thinking about the Arabian Knights which is quite an eastern it's a she was explaining

(1:06:09) it's a very different tradition from western fairy tales which are all about heroes and dragons and quests and the the sort of the more eastern tradition is more about handling ambiguity and complexity and and many things happening at once. It's quite daist in in what what she was describing. But she was talking about the role of the imagination.

(1:06:31) Now, that's something I've got I've started to read about. You know, what about where is what is the role of the imagination? What does that mean? And she was talking about, you know, we need different stories to the ones we have. You know, neoliberalism is a story. It's not a scientific fact. It's a story. We need sometimes to go back to old stories and and stories help to find another right brain more embodied way of of of thinking about the future than you know this sort of more concrete analytical.

(1:07:01) So I think that's what I would say to people if you want if you want to kind of develop your thinking go off in odd directions and see connections. >> Brilliant. There's so many I don't know about you D but my reading list has gone up 10fold. There's some really lovely references in there and and the last question from us for the podcast and a question that we ask every guest um because one of the original missions of the podcast to inspire the next generation of organization development practitioners coming through and I guess

(1:07:25) I'm going to give you a two-pronged question. You can pick which thread you'd like. What advice would you either a give someone who's getting started in organization development? So maybe they're frustrated with the way things are or maybe they're they're seeing complexity and going I I don't really know. I've listened to the podcast.

(1:07:39) been really intrigued with these brilliant descriptions and and articulations of it. What advice would you give them if they're just starting out? >> Really work out what you think. Don't go along with things because somebody else tells you it's professional or the right way of doing things. What do you think? You know, what who are you and what do you think? What matters to you and what have you learned in in your life? And then find like-minded people to work with that you can learn from but that that affirm your nature and your kind of

(1:08:10) starting point because you you will through life be able to to deal with people who are very different from you. But if you're starting off find like-minded people, you know, of different ages and and backgrounds, but feel comfortable in being yourself in that and then learn from that position. But if you're thinking this is really weird, I don't like any of this.

(1:08:31) This is not for me. Then listen to your your gut about that because we do know it's we often have that beaten out of us by organizational processes and what's regarded as norms. But you know norms are only today's stories. They don't last forever. So I think you know find out who you are. Find like-minded people and learn with them.

(1:08:54) And then, you know, when when you're more established, it's easier to kind of work out how to how to flex out of that. That would be my advice. And and do do it across ages. Um I I love working, you know, and engaging with people from different age groups and and backgrounds, you know, in terms of ethnicity, places in the world that they live, you know, the more you can kind of find ways of engaging with people who are different from you.

(1:09:20) At the same time, if this isn't a paradox, finding people who you resonate with. They're slightly different, aren't they? You can resonate with people who are different. >> Jean, I want to say a huge thank you. I'm so happy you said yes to our invitation. I've been really excited about this.

(1:09:35) Those that know me will know that I'm a physics geek and I was just so excited to have someone who has such a breadth and diffs as well. And what you've done is you've brought together what is potentially a potentially intimidating or misdefined subject and you brought a real elegance to it and a real accessibility to it as well.

(1:09:53) And I think that's really reflective in your writing as well. So we really encourage people to to read your books and we'll put links to both of your books in the show notes below and we really encourage you to read them as well. They're really great, aren't they, Danny? >> They are fabulous. Yeah. >> Brilliant.

(1:10:06) Um, so De, we want to say a huge thank you. If people want to follow your work, you know, if they want to just keep up to date with Alex, what's the best way for to to get in contact? >> Well, I've got a website, embracing complexity.com, which has not only, you know, access to the the two main books, but I've also written a number of book chapters and articles and more formal presentations.

(1:10:28) So, there's there's a there's access and a lot of them are are just downloadable from the website. There's articles. There's also a great list of podcasts and presentations and other stuff that if people want to listen to it and you can also sign up for a blog. I've got a a whole blog series going on there and you can sign up or you can contact me via the website and and I I will I love I always you know if people contact me I do get back to them.

(1:10:55) I'm also quite um active on LinkedIn. I quite like LinkedIn but you know if people are interested please do contact me because I like it you know it's it's I I feel like I've got all these new pen pals and friends all over the world and and it's just you know that's how I learn and keep fresh you know so so don't um it would be lovely to hear from people well you're now officially a friend of our podcast now so um and that website is we do a lot of preparation for these sessions we've read your book we've consumed all of your online material and

(1:11:21) it's a really great reference and it's a great place to keep coming back to as well because you keep adding to it as well. Um, and I've really enjoyed I've been in introduced to the term agonistic disagreement uh sacity designing for the formal and the informal and I think you did a mic drop definition at the end which I love which is norms are only the stories of today.

(1:11:40) I think that's such a lovely way of describing it. So good. I don't know you but daddy I'm have a sleepless night tonight just thinking about all the things raised today. Brilliant. So we want to say a huge thank you and thank you to everyone who is tuning in to all our podcasts. We're so pleased with the response we're having.

(1:11:56) it keep we keep adding more countries all of the time and we have such lovely feedback on on the guests that we have and we know that Jean's going to go down extremely well. So if you have enjoyed this podcast, what we're always impressed with the number of shares that we have. So if you're watching this and you're thinking there's someone a manager who's a little lost or an OD practitioner that maybe need to have a new insight on complexity, please do share this podcast.

(1:12:17) I know there will be so much value in it as well. And hit the like button because the algorithm gods love it. But most of importantly, Jamie, we want to say a huge thank you. you've been so generous with your time, your generosity of experience and insight as well. So, thank you. >> Thank you. >> No, well, thank you. It's been lovely. I've um I've enjoyed it and uh you've been absolutely lovely to um to engage with.

(1:12:36) So, I appreciate your warmth and generosity of spirit as well. Heat. Heat.