Master the Art and Science of Organisation Design and Change with Jaimini Lakhani - OrgDev Episode 81

How do you make sure your organisation’s design is truly fit for purpose – not just neat on paper, but aligned to the strategy your future depends on?

And how do you work with senior leaders in a way that builds real trust – so you can understand how value is created in their world, and the tough trade-offs that come with redesigning it?

Today we’re joined by Jaimini Lakhani – founder of Lumiere Consulting and a leading expert in organisation design and strategy. Jaimini has helped some of the world’s most recognisable organisations navigate complex moments of change, connecting strategy, structure and people in ways that deliver real impact.

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

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We'd love to connect with you on Linked In:
linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
https://www.linkedin.com/in/garinrouch

Transcript

(00:00) Hi and welcome to the org dev podcast. So how do you ensure the design of your organization is truly fit for purpose not just on paper but for the critical strategy your organization's futures depend on.
(00:18) How do you engage with senior leaders in a way that builds trust so you really understand how values created in their world and the difficult choices that need to be made when you design the organization. Today we're absolutely delighted to be joined by the brilliant Jamie Lucani, founder of Lumiere Consulting and a leading expert in organization design and strategy. Jamie was born in Uganda, educated in the US and now based in the UK.
(00:37) And Jamie blends personal and work-based international experience towards business challenges. Jamie has worked in diverse industries across private, public and third sector from construction to retail and across the world from China to South Africa.
(00:55) She's partnered with courageous and ambitious leaders in Accenture, Burberry, where she was VP for organization design, the British Council, Heathrow, including the construction of terminal T5 and BP. She's also a guest lecturer at the Claude Litner Business School for the University of West London. And she's certified to train the CIPD's advanced organization design and development course, and that's what I first met when I was a participant on that program.
(01:14) and somehow she has spare time amongst all that where she devotes a lot of time to raising funds and actively participating in enriching the experience of the underprivileged and the projects she's been involved in include orphanages as well as homes for women and children in India and Kenya.
(01:32) So thank you so much for joining us on a very hot Friday afternoon just to kick us off. So, one of the things we do with the podcast is just to demystify organization development and design a little bit. So, Garin's given a bit of an overview of what you do, but can you bring that to life for us and just paint a picture of what that looks like in practice, the work that you do? Absolutely. I I absolutely love this question.
(01:57) And one of the reasons I love it is because as a community, uh, we still only say those two letters O and D. Um and of course you guys know um that uh there is an OD that is org development and there is an OD that's org design. Um and I tend to kind of you know lean towards the org design. Um but um along my travels I came across an analogy which I absolutely love. I use it all the time.
(02:23) Um it suits me really well. Um and it's sort of thinking about organization design and development with respect to vehicles, cars. I love cars. Um so um the uh the analogy came from Naomi Stamford and um what it says is the practice or the art of thinking about organization design is really thinking about the type of car that you need for the context in which you're operating.
(02:53) So imagine um well for those of you that are F1 fans which uh which my nephews are, you know, do you need um a race car? Is the context in which you're operating going that fast at speed? I don't know. Think of Dubai. Think of your holiday coming up, you know, a desert safari. Um, that's a different type of vehicle.
(03:12) Or are you just taking your family out for a picnic, you know, that's when you think about what is the design, you know, that's when you're designing the right sort of vehicle. Now, development is about maintaining that vehicle to perform um at its uh at its best. So, each sort of vehicle needs a different driver, different skill sets. You also need to think about whether that's fuel or electric. You need to think about the number of passengers. You need to think about um continuing maintenance.
(03:38) Um so to me that always presents itself as you know a wonderful analogy. Um I know there's there's many others out there but um that one seems to have worked well for me over the last few years. I love that. That's a that's a really lovely analogy which I think will resonate with people.
(03:55) I think it really kind of brings another kind of lens to it. So what what does the work do you that you do now look like dayto-day? Oh gosh, that's a good question. You know, I I um so I'd been kind of hands down sort of doing um you know, OD or organization design wasn't a language when I started to work. Um which probably dates me a little bit, but you know, I've done all sorts of things. I've done um documentation. I've done technical training guides.
(04:21) Um I've done change. I've done change management. Those are the words that we used to use as I was kind of growing up in the consulting world. Um, and then lo and behold, I started to learn about this language around organization design and development. And for the past several decades, I was just doing it.
(04:42) I was going from one fantastic company to another um with a scary challenge, but you know, really an engaging challenge. Um, and just doing the work. And you know, I guess I started to do some speaking events. I started to, you know, network a little bit more and I understood that my peers or my colleagues, uh, both in the OD practice and in the HR community weren't necessarily having the same type of exciting gigs that I was. You know, I was working with executives. I was doing strategic projects.
(05:09) Um, and that really confused me. I ran across uh a deote uh study that said that whilst people voted organization design organization strategy um the importance of it you know 88% voted the importance of it um but then when those same people were asked do you know how to do it only 11% showed confidence and I thought you know this isn't right so I actually changed the portfolio of my career um this is when I decided um to not necessarily just go into one company at at a time um I decided to open up my own sort of um consulting practice. I decided to teach and I decided to coach and you know
(05:50) really try and just um do do some more speaking events to try and sort of break all of those myths uh about organization design and and try and help people to understand that differentiation. You know, we have two great specialist levers.
(06:09) We've got development and we've got design and both of them are high investment choices. And I think it's really when when you say organization design for a lot of people they just oh it this is about structure. This is about moving boxes around on a on a chart. Um but it's not thinking. I mean you guys must know I mean the first org charts were you know back in the 1800s.
(06:28) Um so you know it's it's it's phenomenal to me. It's, you know, that we we kind of still use that particular visual uh as a way in which to describe something that has evolved immensely. But yes, no, I I I walk into many organizations and the first thing they they sort of give me um if they have it, they they don't all have it is a stack of or charts and I'm just like, "Thank you very much. That's really interesting. Now, let's have a conversation about your business.
(06:52) " Yeah. Let's start with that. So, like how do you even begin? because it can be quite an overwhelming thing. You know, like saying people understand the importance of it, but they don't know how to do it. I guess one of the things I really took away from the program that I did with you is just like there there's some fundamental steps that you need to take, aren't there? Yes. No, absolutely.
(07:10) Um, there are some fundamental steps. I mean, I guess to make it really practical, one of the first things that or one of the the ethos of being a great organization design or organization development practitioners is just to be curious. You know, we we don't have the answers. uh the the practice of hiring a consultancy to come and give you the answer.
(07:28) I think that was always a myth, you know, to be honest. Um and thankfully uh we've moved beyond that. You know, this is about collaboration. We're in environments and contexts that none of us have ever been in before. So I think it's just just let the armor down. You know, know that you're going into a collaborative environment. Um so it's a good question, Garrett.
(07:47) Let me let me try to give you a great example of uh of how I unpacked someone who really didn't want to meet me. Um so this is a a client example of a luxury retailer that I worked with and uh the CEO definitely knew the capability that organization design could bring in. Um she asked me to work with all of her executive teams.
(08:07) Uh they were really pivoting from a premium strategy to a luxury strategy. and the uh the president of Europe sort of said, you know, Jay, why don't you and Abigail come along? I'll give you half an hour and we'll just sort this thing out. And I thought, wow, I mean, at least I got a half an hour, right? And so I went away.
(08:27) I was curious. I looked at uh the customer base. I found out that in Europe, most of the customers were international travelers. They weren't domestic. Um I looked at I did look at the org charts. The org charts gave me a sense of um I didn't look at the structure. I looked at the operating model.
(08:44) Um, design is about the operating model. So, I looked at that and I had some questions around the operating model. So, in my half an hour, I literally just came with a bunch of questions. I said uh I said, you know, I'm just curious um you are organized by uh by country um in Europe.
(09:06) And so that means that you have about 20 to 25 country directors, but your customers aren't domestic customers. Your customers are international customers. your product is singular throughout the world. So why are you organized by Google Maps? And that really took him a back. Um but but it kind of hit the point. And then the other thing the the organization was shifting from a strategy of really selling to wholesalers but to to reclaim the brand and to have more of a retail ownership.
(09:36) But in Europe, they had a trail, a tale of thousands of specialist uh wholesalers. And so the question was is well, you know, why do you have someone leading your wholesale business? You're creating them an incentive to continue to push wholesale and that's contrary to the strategy. So again, a commercial question, you know, sort of a little bit tongue and cheek, but I only had 30 minutes.
(10:01) So, um, and that 30 minutes bought me, uh, another two hours. That two hours bought me, um, you know, a workshop. That workshop bought us, uh, a 2-year partnership, uh, to really continue to evolve that organization or that particular region. That's fascinating, isn't it? um cuz I guess you know that person would have seen this so many times and yet never thought to challenge the assumptions upon what the the um the design is built upon.
(10:30) Why why is it that people are blind to the the things that influence the design of the organization? Why are they sort of blind to these things constraints that holding their systems back? Yeah gosh, you know, it's a great question. I I always believe that people bring a p a particular perspective uh to their profession and um you know it doesn't say anything about that executive you know that executive is is trained to look at products to look at commercialization to look at you know putting together a team um and they're not necessarily trained to look at the perspective that I'm trained to do you know I can't run a whole retail business
(11:05) but I can see operating models um that's my experience I can sort of ask questions so that we can collaborate. And I think this is one of the things um that I also heard the CEO used to say is um and another vehicle example, but you know, look what happens when you're on the freeway.
(11:24) You know, stay in your lane, know what you can do, and you have to trust others because if you're not, you're sort of bashing against each other. It creates tension in the system. Um but if you trust each other's perspectives, then you can have a really enriching conversation.
(11:43) Um, and all I ask is for people to, you know, let the org design practitioners into the room, listen to the different perspective. And I think that's kind of where the magic happens. And to steal Danny's question, you mentioned the word operating model. We love definition. And I remember talking to a whole range of operating model consultants and they all couldn't agree on what it is.
(12:02) But so what's your sort of working definition? And there is something that how do you how do you see it? How do you visualize it? What does it require to see that? Yeah. Do you know what operating model is one of those words that uh you know gets tossed around. I I get into a lot of uh debates with um strategy departments as well or transformation departments as well you know because uh so there's operating model there's business model.
(12:26) I think organizations create a business model um where they look at different ways in which to execute strategy earn revenue do profits. operating model to me is looking at how do you work? How does all that operate? And and when I say all that, um I mean, you know, what what channels are you going to market with? Um are you doing digital? Are you doing face-toface? What are your different business units? Um and how are you categorizing those? Who are you going to partner with to deliver some of those capabilities? What are your core capabilities? And have you veered, you know, kind of far away from it? So,
(12:59) we're just trying to figure out sort of how do you operate and and we're just going to do an ASIS and in that example that I gave you with that luxury retailer, they were operating by channel um as a premium player. Um what they needed to do was to be channel agnostic in order to operate as a luxury player. Now, they had their strategy.
(13:23) It was so clear and thankfully it was because that allowed me to, you know, have those curious conversations around why their how they were operating wasn't necessarily um aligning with what they were saying in their strategy. Yeah, I had a question there.
(13:42) You talked about them having a really clear strategy, which is is really helpful for the sort of work that we do and that you you do. What advice would you have to somebody who's working in an organization where that strategy isn't clear or it feels fuzzy and and not really thought through? Yeah. Well, funny enough, I've been in that situation.
(13:59) So, I was in a situation where a particular business unit um that was growing really fast. So, I'm talking the uh the F1 example, they were growing so fast, it was it was really hard to keep up. Um they just, you know, found themselves with a with a product in a hot market. um and uh but they embarked on um this is before I got there. They embarked on uh a transformation program.
(14:20) Now, initially a consultancy had come in and and talked to them about process redesign, making themselves streamlined. Um they then sort of tagged on under that transformation umbrella to do some org design. Um then I was hired into the organization. I went into that business unit. Um and again I was asking them these questions.
(14:40) I was saying you know what are your target markets? um you know, who are your customers? Um how are you going to go to market? Because they had um a mix of going direct to market, but they also had a mix of kind of trying to use um a third party to buffer within them. Um so the strategy wasn't clear to me how they were actually going to um go to market the business model and um and they were spending a lot of money um you know trying to do a transformation program.
(15:10) So it it did take a few efforts because of course you know when leaders invest in a program um they don't necessarily want to backtrack. Um but you know I think there was some real evidence that they were spending a lot on that program and they weren't necessarily getting that return on investment. So it took a little bit of time. I introduced them um to a a strategy partner.
(15:28) Of course I can have some questions but you know business strategy is is not necessarily my lane. Um so I introduced them to um a strategy partner who did a little bit of work to to make them aware of what potential strategies could look like. So again just a a soft touch um and then I was able to come in there and complement that with options because it was if your strategy is this then this could be your operating model but if your strategy is that then you know I would think of something else.
(15:58) So I think that conversation just opening up some options helped them to realize that they needed to invest in the strategy first before we we really tried to align a design around that and an operating model that fit with that strategy. I love that on so many levels because I guess what you've done is you've done it in a very gentle way but often with a strategy is like it's done the task is complete we move forward now it's up to interpretation by others and you know it's almost like giving yourself permission to sort of push back and say well before we all go and put all our resources to bear it's okay to take a
(16:35) step back isn't it absolutely I mean you know I think the other thing I would say is sometimes businesses think they have a strategy Um, but actually, uh, it's not really a strategy. It's it's maybe a glittering generality, if if I can, you know, kind of be so bold and throw that out. Um, to say that we want customer excellence.
(16:55) From a design standpoint, I don't know what that means. Um, I don't know if that is my F1 car or if that's my family going to a picnic because I can deliver you customer excellence um, either way. So you know what I always say to uh my practitioners when I'm building a team or you know talking to executives is okay let's unpack that you know when we say digital let's unpack that you know do we mean e-commerce do we mean automation do we mean self-service there are a lot of things that we need to understand so that we design uh the capabilities around that do we mean the
(17:29) whole organization even because you know that's that's quite a bigger two than to just say that we want to focus on a particular part of the business. Um, agile is another one. Um, you know, when we say agile, what do we mean? Do we mean faster? Do we mean more flexible? Do we want everyone to be agile? Really? Um, so again, you know, let's let's unpeel the layers. It's so important.
(17:54) Um, and and if people needed evidence, you know, there's so much great research out there. An organization that is able to align its operating model with its strategy is nearly two and a half times more likely to have greater revenue growth. This is what I mean about a high investment capability um and um you know uh more growth um it's probably 10 times more able to make faster decisions. People like that you know you retain your talent.
(18:28) just unpacking those strategies is really important to you know for the business itself and also to get a good design and and as you're talking I'm sort of mentally ticking off the different capabilities in in an effective organization design practitioner and I'm I'm hearing obviously commerciality is important the ability to to sniff out what's going on here that obviously the technical skills are hygiene factors aren't they but it sounds like there's a big facilitation point here as well because you're trying to get busy senior people to convin convene them and take them through the process where there is
(18:57) some form of agreement. Yeah, absolutely. Uh it's interesting because um when I started out in my consulting world and and facilitation came up, I was the first one that sort of turned around and ran the other way. Um and I thought, you know, I'm not a facilitator. You know, I can't do this.
(19:15) I was watching some, you know, really great colleagues that were excellent at it. Um, and and I think it's because maybe I thought it was something different to who I am. And as I started to have to do it more, um, but I enjoy what I do. Um, it really is a genuine conversation. Facilitation is a genuine conversation.
(19:39) You know, there there's no, you know, obviously there's, you know, some some tools, some techniques um, that you can learn. Um but the ability to really put yourselves in that executive's shoes. When I was a consultant, it's very difficult when you're looking outside in. Um you don't know what's going on in the organization. You don't know all the agendas at play. You don't know all the pressures. You don't know personally what people might be going through.
(20:02) Um but when you're in an organization, you get the sense of that. Um and everyone is trying to do their best. But as a designer uh you have a huge responsibility because you end up seeing perspectives that nobody else can see. And and that carries with it a real level of responsibility because you're now trying to reveal to others what they can't see.
(20:28) And you have to do that in a really authentic, you know, quite a gentle um but you know, just a very trusting way because you're all after the same goal. And and once you remember that work design practitioners work for the brand. They don't work for any single executive.
(20:48) I know someone's going to pay the bill, but it's one of it's one of the core principles of being a great practitioner is you are there to work for the brand, the mission. And you know, technically we all are. So let's have that conversation. Hi, we're just pausing this interview for a moment. Have you ever finished an episode of the ordev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points? Us too.
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(21:47) But what has been your journey so far? Um it's uh it's great. So I I actually have a degree in economics and then I went off to uh to get an MBA. So I guess you know a little bit of that commerciality you know understanding business um being able to you know look at it that way I would I would credit to that. Um I was very blessed and fortunate to work with a number of different consulting firms and I uh in in the organization design course, you know, with the CIPD, we do talk about being able to um get into the mindset uh of being a consultant, being able to scope, being able to project manage, uh being able to read different um personal
(22:27) styles at work. it's not personalities, it's personal styles at work, being able to, you know, really bridge that divide. Um, so I worked with a few consulting firms. Um, I then decided, you know, it's interesting when you're when you're an external consultant. Um, you have sort of two masters.
(22:46) You have your client, but you have your consulting firm. And, you know, sometimes the objectives don't necessarily align. Your your performance measurements are different. And I realized that I really love what I do. Um, I didn't necessarily want to get into a sales role, uh, which consulting, you know, would have taken me to. I wanted to do the work.
(23:03) Um, so I I hopped out of that consulting boat. Um, and that's when I took on my first position over at um, Heathrow. Um, and and that was an eyeopener, you know, to learn how organizations work internally, how organizations really make decisions. um that you don't have to create you know 50 to 100 point page PowerPoint decks um you just have to have that conversation you have to build that trust um which you know it is difficult when you're just outside in I then moved from consulting uh to doing some uh independent projects uh somehow I always
(23:39) landed on on some of the um some of the most challenging you know I sat in Northern Rock after uh it was the bank it had the first run on a bank in 150 years in Brit British history, you know, that was during the financial crisis. Um, I I sat in the uh the prison and probation system as they tried to merge um in the under the Ministry of Justice.
(24:05) Um I just, you know, tended to just land myself in in very interesting roles and um and I I love that. I I love the big challenge. I love the big bold aspirations. And um you know I was really blessed that uh senior executives kind of opened the door to me um and were ready to have that conversation. I was going to say so you've worked across really different sectors.
(24:27) So you you're listening to when I said that prison and probation services, aren't you? And I'm I'm just interested in your take. So obviously that kind of how important is sector experience in the work that you do is kind of one of those classic debates, isn't it? You know it. Do you need do you need sector experience or not? And I just Yeah. I'm really interested in your take on that.
(24:46) No, it's uh it was really interesting to me because in consulting we went from uh being change experts and then the consulting industry reorganized to try and make us industry experts. Um and just you know by default um I ended up in the uh the oil and gas the energy industry. Um and you know I had never really kind of you know worked in that particular industry before and and then you know like I said I went over to terminal 5.
(25:15) So what I say to people is you know I think that's a little bit of my superpower is that I'm industry agnostic when you look at now I think there are there are areas and and professions where uh that is hugely valuable but when you're talking about organization design when you're talking about organizational behavior when you're talking about how humans you know kind of might operate uh the thing you discover is you discover the patterns and actually I I think some industries hugely benefit from examples outside of their industry. This is where you with
(25:50) your perspective can really kind of spark a little bit of innovation. Um and this is what we did the the European example that I gave you. Um because you know one of the things we we did a little bit of research and we said well you know Starbucks is sort of a a premium uh or or a luxury I guess coffee brand to some um you know Starbucks doesn't organize itself by countries.
(26:20) They don't have an expensive infrastructure with 20 to 25 country directors. Um you know they they look at themselves in a different way. So we went totally, you know, to uh to a a consumer uh industry, but to try and take some innovation, try and take some ideas. And I think I think that is what makes the conversation engaging, you know, makes it a bit of magic because, you know, we're in territory we haven't been in before. Well, that's interesting.
(26:48) Let's think about uh what that sparks in terms of some ideas. Brilliant. I've got a personal curiosity question here. um because you are our first first person who has an economist background. How's that shaped your outlook um on the world? Oh gosh. Um yeah, now now I now I'm kind of regretting saying that. I mean uh I do you know what I I don't know. I I went to the University of Chicago.
(27:11) Um I um I it was a liberal arts education. So um you know, a lot of thinking, a lot of writing. Uh the economics was sort of the hard maybe a little bit of the numbers side of it. Um, I'm not scared of numbers. I'm a bit of a data junkie. Um, but I'm also not scared of the softer side.
(27:29) Um, and maybe that's the liberal arts sort of education. Um, but I definitely I think we'll go back to your point. What I um have seen is that there is a lack of commerciality in the conversation around organization design and organization development.
(27:50) And it's until you are able to have that commercial conversation that um you're going to be able to uh walk in confidently and credibly into that boardroom. Um and I and that's where the conversation needs to happen. Um I've worked under COOS, I've worked under CEOs, I've worked under uh chief people officers, um I've worked um alongside transformation directors. um this particular capability um is strategic.
(28:19) It needs to have uh a seat at the strategic table. Um otherwise, we're not really unleashing the true potential. Um and I'm I'm just very fortunate to have been put in situations where I was able to exercise that strategic muscle and organizations definitely saw the benefit of that and and it's represented in their growth.
(28:45) it's represented in their numbers and that's where we need to measure ourselves and and one of the things you talked about there was your involvement in Heathrow um and T5 so terminal 5 for those for the uninitiated like it was probably one of the biggest sort of construction projects in the whole of the UK newspapers watching it was huge it was a vast thing wasn't it what were some some of your learnings from that Terminal 5 was an incredible undertaking for the UK Okay. It was, you know, we we always laughed because we said it was 20 years in the making. You know, it took
(29:16) sort of 15 years to talk about it and four years to build it. And uh it was the it was the first time that the UK had taken on that size of a project. It actually was the the biggest construction project in Europe at the time. Um and the UK had never demonstrated uh that it was able to deliver uh that that sort of a program.
(29:43) and not only just to build a terminal but you know integrate it into the operational side of Heathrow one of the world's busiest terminals. So you know just the the sheer context of it you know was overwhelming and to be honest that's when I had my pivot point from being a change specialist to an organization design practitioner. Um, and I'll never say specialist because I think that this is something because it's so contextual, the the learning is always evolving. Um, but that program um, you know, we had to brace ourselves.
(30:21) You know, year one we had to move the rivers, protect the wildlife, um, plant the trees that were going to be there four years from now. Year two was when we needed to pour a lot of concrete um and get that uh you know land sort of you know ready. Uh year three was about build.
(30:46) You know we had to get these massive buildings up and running and year four was about systems and integration. So each year had a particular theme and you know for me to lend my organization design perspective I had to help that leadership team think about how they needed to represent themselves and operate um so that the highest priority was always that theme. Now the consistent theme throughout that particular construction program was safety.
(31:21) Um so T5 you know still now I think broke a number of safety records um in terms of minimizing the number of fatalities. Um it did open uh you know on time. It did stay within budget. There was a lot of creativity with respect to how we did the contracts. Um at any point we had 8,000 people 35 nationalities on site. You know it was an overwhelming undertaking.
(31:53) You know, I was fortunate to have leaders that that I learned from that had made some bold decisions. Uh, one of the big design decisions for T5 was to separate that from the existing sort of organization sort of to have it as a separate organization with its own P&L with its own leadership team with its own managing director. That was one of the most fundamental decisions um that was made.
(32:20) Um and then year on year we incorporated both organization design and organization development um skills techniques year on year to make sure that that program really achieved its mission. You know I can't say in in you know there's there's not enough words for me to describe how pivotal that particular program was for my career. And and interestingly um they all all these different people working for it weren't all working for the same company.
(32:43) A lot of them were subcontractors, but you had to create a sense of identity amongst them, didn't you? Yeah. So, the the again, you know, just a a genius um strategy from a a people and an organization development perspective was to have everyone um represent Terminal 5. So, do you remember when I said that uh we're all in it for the same goal? And when you turn the volume up on that, which is what we did at Terminal 5, um the message was is that regardless of where we were coming from, we all wanted the same goal and we all worked for the same team. We worked for team T5 and we were all going to walk away. Whether you spent a month there, six months there,
(33:24) two years there, four years there, we were all going to walk away. And every time we passed by terminal 5, we were going to say, I built that. And so to have that one team environment and from a safety perspective, that was absolutely essential because you needed regardless of which team you worked for, if you spotted something that wasn't safe or that was a hazard, you were able to raise your hand and say as one team, you know, that's uh that's a safety hazard. Um so just a a genius program wrapped around the culture, the
(33:57) development side of it. Um of course you know the the design side of it was was key to bring in the right talent at the right time to make sure that we had the right focus on airfield or buildings or systems or integration.
(34:16) And I think the other thing I would say, you know, to people doing organization design is we often evaluate job roles and we sort of rank or tier um people according to their job evaluation. Um the health and safety role wasn't the biggest role uh on the program. Um but the health and safety role would always always sit on the executive leadership team and they would always have first voice at every leadership team meeting because safety was always of paramount.
(34:42) And you know, I think the safety record speaks sort of for itself for T5. Well, those signals are really important, aren't they? I love what you said there about the health and safety person always having the first voice. Um, yes, it's little things like that that really amplify and kind of reinforce the importance. Yes, absolutely. You know, it's the thing that determines, you know, it speaks volumes about your culture.
(35:00) That's a kind of embodiment of rather than just saying the words that safety is our number one priority. It embodies it, doesn't it? So, what do you love most about the work that you do? Oh gosh, what don't I love? Um, I love the unpredictability of it.
(35:17) I mean, I've I've I've been doing this for a long time and I think that's why and and I'm glad I've uh I've sat at different seats around the table. I've been an external consultant. I've been an internal consultant. Um, you know, I've uh I've, you know, been a director leading or design teams. Um I think I've probably scaled up teams you know from scratch three or four times which I love developing people um teaching and I'm now able to uh I've coached a lot of executives um it's amazing to see executives go through their own personal journey. It's difficult to lead an organization design program because it
(35:52) is so pervasive when an organization makes that decision. Um it's a very very pervasive intervention and it takes uh a lot of stamina. It takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of integrity and to stand next to executives and sort of you know coach them work with them through those programs you know come out on the other side.
(36:15) Sometimes these executives are leading these programs and the end result is that they will no longer have a role. You know, imagine that. Imagine the leadership quality it takes uh to do one of those programs. I just love that whole human aspect of it. I love seeing the the aha moments uh when you're able to really, you know, when people get it. Um I love when uh you get into difficult times.
(36:40) um you know, Northern Rock, it was obvious that there were going to be some drastic, massive changes. Uh the European Union had given uh the bank um six months to separate the uh the retail business from the mortgage business.
(36:59) And yet when you're able to have those authentic conversations with individuals whose you know sheer livelihoods were at stake, they had given so much equity into an organization and yet you know they wanted to see it survive through. Um, so I think that is, you know, that's just human fuel. You know, I love being a part of that story. I've got an optional question for you here.
(37:17) One of the things you talked about there is the senior team. Yes. The executive. And you know, they're they're at the vanguard of everything. But another group of leaders that play an important role is the next tier down. Yeah. So they're not the ones at the top table, but they're the ones who are sort of integrating the new design.
(37:34) They're often too big to be a team. There's like there's a lot of them depending on the scale of the organization as well. Yes. What kind of things what are some of the considerations when you're designing an organization to support this group of managers because they they potentially are the catalyst for this being a success, aren't they? Yeah, absolutely.
(37:51) I mean, first and foremost, I always insist to not work with just the executive team. So, I say to them, you know, give me and even if it's each of them, you know, give me someone that's going to represent um your team or your organization. I want to go those next levels down.
(38:09) That's a that's a bit of a, you know, change management sort of trick as well, which is, you know, involve these people early. Um, get them engaged, but, you know, they're the ones um that have the scars. They're the ones that have the bruises. You know, they see the problems and, you know, nine times out of 10, they actually know um what needs to happen. You know, they just need the voice.
(38:27) So, you know, remember just making sure that that voice is heard. So I always insist on having a bigger uh team to work with, to collaborate with, to educate. So I I recognize who the decision makers are, but I always insist on having that next level down. And and for the most part, I think organizations are really willing to do that. You know, they recognize that I'm willing to do it.
(38:50) I'm willing to give my own time and effort to engage um and educate that next level down. So I really like to do that. when you're going into design, I guess it comes in stages. You know, when you're when you're doing the operating model, that's one of the high level pieces and we we always insist on doing it in a collaborative way and and getting that that next level down. But when you get into the detail design, I want to go even deeper.
(39:14) Um I want to involve, you know, even the next levels down from that. And you know, it's fascinating to to work with executives and get them to maybe open up. Um, you know, I remember working with one executive, you know, who just wanted to do it all himself.
(39:32) You know, for for a couple of months, he walked around, you know, with a a little org chart in his back pocket and, you know, every time I'd see him, you know, I'd be like, "How you doing, Mark?" And he'd be like, "Oh, Jay, you know, I'm glad I ran into you." Pull out that little sheet of paper. I was thinking, I was like, "Mark, no, no, no." You know, let's get some quality time.
(39:45) You know, for them to then get that realization that they would benefit so much more if they just opened up. And in that instance, um, you know, one of the people that they feared that they was going to they were going to scare came up to them and said, "Look, I know that this might um be a risk to me or my job, but can I help you with that? You know, can I be involved?" And and just that uh and all of a sudden, you know, we opened up a collaborative, you know, just honest conversation. Um, so yeah, I I would I'm all about being open. I know
(40:17) there are instances when you can't. Um, you know, I understand that. Um but I also always sort of say you know if you have unions um you know try and engage them as early as possible that you know there are reasons why organizations need to do what they do. It's not secretive.
(40:37) I think organ organizations should evolve their design with changes in strategy changes in context new leadership. There are so many catalysts. We don't need to fear it. We just need to do it well because it matters. Yeah. Yeah, you've as you've answered the question I was going to ask about that kind of real human side of kind of the work that we do in or design and kind of the anxiety it creates sometimes and I think the evolution thing is really interesting.
(41:02) Do you think organizations are too quick to do kind of big transformational change versus kind of incremental evolution? I I think organizations maybe have been trained so that's a great question. I'm I'm hoping uh I think organizations have been trained to wait um until maybe they see a problem um and then act on it. And um you organizations they can survive for a long time um unproductively.
(41:29) It amazes me how long organizations can survive unproductively, inefficiently. So imagine that is creeping up on you for a long long time and you know by the time they decide to do something or kind of either admit that there's a problem you know or see a problem um you know it's like a house foundation it's like oh gosh you know now we have to do something quite drastic.
(41:54) So definitely not for the you know let's let's wait and then boom you know in in our courses in our core philosophy of organization design and development in a car you know you wouldn't you wouldn't buy a car and never get it serviced never get it maintained you know never change even just you know the brake pads you know why I mean it's safety and it's health um so why would you do that with an organization you know you need to kind of keep vigilant And if you do that then actually you don't have to make those huge changes.
(42:27) Making massive organizational changes that hurts you know that's pervasive. You are taking the organization back a few steps. Um so you better have a plan you know to to catch it up. You're you're really you're playing with emotional equity and I think that's a bit dangerous. We don't need to do that.
(42:50) So yeah, I I think organizations have just been trained to do that and and I'm I'm trying to educate them not to do that. That's my goal. You don't have to. So we talked about what you enjoy most about the the work you do. What do you find most challenging? Oh, yes. Um I guess I find it challenging I find it challenging when Oh, let me think about that one. Um because there are so many challenging aspects of it.
(43:16) And the reason I'm hesitating is because I think I find uh the challenge has changed um as I've developed my practice. So I would say when I was maybe a younger practitioner, a newer practitioner, um the challenge was to really be heard to uh kind of be able to talk about the capability for what it is, for the strategic purpose that it has.
(43:40) uh because and it might be because people you know think that uh HR or people profession or organization is something that they already know about and so it's very hard to come in there um and offer a unique point of view or feel like you can offer a unique point of view.
(44:03) So I think you know in my early days the challenge was you know just getting people to to listen you know to operate at the right level. Um so then what happens when you start to operate at the right level? um well, you really feel the politics um of how organizations operate and I think sometimes organizations let themselves down because you know at that very kind of senior level there is a lot of tension you know for sometimes for good reasons um because you know there's so much passion to move an organization a certain way that I think it's very easy for executives to get blindsided and so it takes takes longer to build the trust
(44:41) and so I find that challenging if they haven't already if you don't already come across a a leader that sort of believes in the capability um then it it just takes a little bit longer to build that trust and sometimes you don't I mean I had I had an instance in an organization where there was a senior executive and no matter how much the CEO said to them you know have a conversation with Jamie I'm just saying a conversation just hear her perspective out he's like nope I'm doing fine things are flying off the shelf. I don't need any help. Um I don't have time. I'm
(45:13) a retail expert. I've been doing this for 40 years. And um no, so I I wasn't a able to uh get in the door for two years. Um and meanwhile, that scenario that I was talking to you about where, you know, they're not changing the brakes, they're not doing their maintenance, they're not changing the oil, that was all catching up.
(45:33) That was all catching up. And um finally, one of their markets just didn't perform. one of their highly dependable markets just didn't perform and they just said, "Whoa, that's unusual. What's going on there? Maybe I need to call Jamie." Um, so, you know, sometimes I'm called in a little bit later into the process.
(45:50) I wish it was sooner. But, um, but you know, we took care of that one. There's always a way. And is there anything particularly interesting you in the field of or design at the moment? Any kind of emerging trends or kind of shifts you're seeing? I you know I have to say I I I love the technology aspect of it blending in.
(46:15) Um so you know I I still find sometimes teams um creating um organization links or connections you know org charts um with uh on PowerPoint um or not at all but I think there's a lot of different technologies that are coming through to assist um with the analysis with the baselining you know it's hugely important so um if you're not a data junkie that's okay but you know have someone that really is comfortable with um data, with numbers, being able to kind of mash it up. Um and is one of my products that I have for organizations.
(46:46) I call it the org mashup where we just take lots of different data and we show them different perspectives. And um and that's important because if you're going to run an organization that's full of, you know, humans, people that are giving, you know, so much equity, you know, know your organization. um you know and uh as an example um one of the CEOs I worked with and and I and I did this org mashup for them and uh and and they're a luxury player but you know we did this or mashup and the largest workforce worked in finance um
(47:22) the huge spread of workforce worked in finance uh most of the people costs were in finance and um you know when I presented this particular visual to the CEO you know her reaction was is hang on am I running a bank and you know imagine that you know it's like well you tell me you know I was just offering a perspective um and again you know executives can make very quick decisions on that so um I love the technology aspect of it coming through I'm really excited about um what AI can do I'm not sure but organization design so um you know is about work it's not about
(48:04) people. So what is it that technology can do regarding the work um that gives us um you know huge input? Um I'm excited about companies now doing a little bit more research around organization design and development. Um I think back in the day I felt like I had to do my own business case and it felt really soft. Um and it and it you know I just wasn't able to sell it.
(48:28) But I love the uh the the research that's coming out that absolutely can contextualize factualize um what a high investment capability that this is and I think that gives um a lot of credibility to the profession. You were born in Uganda and then you've you've lived in the US and how has that kind of global experience and perspective shaped how you approach your work? Yeah, I I love tapping into my cultural backgrounds.
(49:00) Um, so I guess you know when you work with different people and I think you know it it when you work in in different cultures you know especially from a business perspective there's this element of appreciating adapting and understanding you know how that particular culture works. And I guess what it's what it's helped me to do is know um know when to kind of listen a bit more, know when to be a little bit more directive, know how to question or challenge. Um and it's all been a learning process.
(49:38) Um know the eticy of hierarchy uh is really important. Um, you know, when I worked in I I did a little bit of work in South Korea and um and and thankfully, you know, I partnered with my colleague who was from Japan um overseeing the region and we needed to interview all of the executives and there was uh a real anxiety about uh talking about their organization, talking about their leader and we had to set those interviews up in a very different way to how I might do it in America or how I might approach it in the UK. Um, and you know, first and
(50:21) foremost, you want to make that human connection. You want to build that trust and working in different countries helps you, educates you on how to do that. And I hugely value that. I feel like I'm able to adapt my style um not for my sake because you know I'm I'm there um on behalf of the brand and I'm there on behalf of you know very courageous leaders.
(50:48) So I feel like I'm able to adapt my style so that you know together we're sort of able to to progress you know whether it's a conversation whether it's a question I know in some cultures I am their voice and again that's a huge responsibility but because I know that um I'm gonna approach that conversation knowing that I'm someone else's voice um and being able to you know slightly uh mend, you know, the way that I approach a situation.
(51:19) When you look back at your career so far, what are some of the biggest lessons you've learned that you you take forward with you? Oh, some great lessons. Um so, um I I mean, looking back now, you know, to my younger self, um I didn't have the confidence and I I thought I thought that there was a way to do things and I needed to learn that way.
(51:40) Um and of course, you know, much later on you realize that, you know, that way is your way. um to to have confidence in in your style um and your ability. The other thing is is um you know I I guess I I might have thought that and this might be the consulting side but you know that I needed to really be good at everything.
(52:01) Um and you know I would uh uh you know try very hard to you know to be the data analyst to be the great facilitator to be the strategist and and of course you know as as you um you know as you mature as I've matured um I've loved seeing the potential and talent in different individuals.
(52:21) I've loved building the teams where I'm able to recognize um what I can bring to the table. Um but to actually build a team around me that can complement each other. Um so, you know, I've learned that and I've learned to really enjoy that diversity. Um, I've learned, um, I've learned when organization design isn't the right intervention or it isn't the right time or I'm not working with the right leader.
(52:51) And to be able to I mean, in some situations, I've actually recused myself from from a project or from moving something forward because, you know, I felt that um I wasn't going to add that value. Just the the circumstances weren't right. you know that consulting doesn't teach you that you just stick to it. Well, sometimes consulting teaches the opposite, doesn't it? Yeah.
(53:13) And and you could sort of tell that with the story you were sort of saying in terms of bringing in you could have very easily picked up that strategy um discussion, couldn't you? But knowing to bring in someone else and that reinforces your position as well. So when it comes back to you again um you you've got even more legitimacy to work with the team, haven't you? Yes. You hope so.
(53:31) You hope so. I mean I think you know the the the ethos is is you know continue to do what you feel is right and you know people will have different opinions on it but as long as you in your gut um you know feel that what you're doing is right um then there is that likelihood that it will come back to you uh and I think you know I'd like to think that people that are in my network you know that I've worked with before you know would gladly work with me again or you know that's how I was able to uh branch off and and run my own business is you know some of the executives that had worked with me before you know as
(54:03) they moved on to a different role you know they would call me and they would say look you know can you can you give me a perspective on this uh and those are the types of relationships that you want to carry forward um that I like to carry forward you know that's what I've learned is is that's what matters to me and how do you invest in your own learning and development um so what um the great thing and I haven't even talked about this the other thing that I love about having so much um diverse experience is to offer that back. Uh so when I took up the the C
(54:34) CIPD assignment to um initially it was just to teach uh the existing organization design course. Um they gave me an opportunity to rejig it. So I put a little bit of my own um uh uh influence into that course and then um to be able to actually teach that course.
(54:59) I learn so much from uh the participants that are in that course because I learn about their fears. I learn about their anxieties. I learn about their success. I learn about what they might have taken away from bits of the course. Um and uh and they'll come back the next time. It might be the very following week.
(55:18) And I love to hear how they might have just put something into practice. So yeah, I mean I guess that I mean like I said there's there's some great research coming out now that uh I I like to read about. There's lots of different views coming about that I like to read about. There are also some myths that I'm trying to debunk um that are still existing which uh which keeps me I think on podcasts and and maybe speaking events.
(55:44) Um so uh uh but I but I learned from all of those because you know like I said the the practice is so contextual and so you really really have to understand um both um the context in which the business is operating but you know the the technological context the behavioral context the the fact that you know as a society you know we're operating in a geopolitical crisis a health crisis an economic crisis you know, we haven't been here before.
(56:14) You know, how do we incorporate all of that into our thinking um to help organizations thrive and and then for people to thrive? Fabulous. And if people listening want to learn more about org design, are there any particular books or resources or podcasts that you'd recommend people look at? Um so, you know what, I absolutely love Naomi Stanford and I think her book on um designing organizations is fantastic.
(56:38) I is one of my on my to-do list which is to find you know some more podcasts. I would encourage people to I mean chat GPT is great. You just ask chat GPT you know give me the latest statistics on the benefits of organization design and it'll just give you a pile of research. You know read the current research. Um I find that fascinating.
(56:57) Um I'm I'm trying to learn more about the different technologies that are out there. Um, so you've got Orview, um, Q5 Partners has their own, you've got Agent Noon that's come out. So I think be curious, you know, learn about the different technologies. Um, and, uh, you know, I'm trying to get my own stories out there.
(57:17) I think what I found is, uh, the the bruises and scars that I'm able to share, you know, really go a long way because people recognize themselves in those situations. So um you know as I said I I I hesitate from calling it you know an expertise or a specialism.
(57:35) You know I think it's loads and loads of experience and and we all have lots of different experience that we can share and um and learn from each other. Fantastic. And the question that we always end every podcast with but people find really useful is what advice would you give someone considering or just starting out in organization design? you talked about the fact that people recognize it is important but the people that actually feel confident doing it.
(58:00) What are people sort of considering those first steps wherever they may be internal, external? Yeah. Um I would say go for it first and foremost. Um it's uh it's a wonderful skill and capability to have. I would say be bold in the projects that you take. I would say do get some sort of um initial training but but nothing speaks for experience. So um if you get offered a particular project or if you get offered an opportunity you know definitely take that.
(58:25) I would say find um a coach or a mentor um not it doesn't have to be someone that you know that you have to pay for but you know find people that you uh believe in as good role models. You'd be surprised how many people are open to just getting on a phone call and offering some advice. It's a it's a lovely community.
(58:44) We help each other. you know, I work my own practice, but you know, I call my uh my friends up, my community up, and and I'll still ask them, I was like, look, you know, I've got this particular situation. I'm thinking about this operating model. You know, what's your view on it? And, you know, they will always come at the other end of the phone.
(59:02) So, I would say build up your community network. Um, you know, find those challenging assignments. You know, that's where you're going to grow. Um, I'm not talking about team design. That's not organization design. you know, get yourself stuck in, you know, a big strategic change that means something to the organization. Brilliant.
(59:20) Well, Jamie, you want to say a huge thank you. I've thoroughly enjoyed that. It's been a really amazing blend of the practice of organization design, some really rich stories, um, and just really, you know, hard one practical insights that I think is really going to accelerate people's understanding, um, of of the subject as well.
(59:42) Danny, what are you taking away from the conversation? Yeah, I think you've done a lovely job of bringing it to life as a as as a practice and and as a field. So, um I think we're all on board with your campaign to kind of go for evolution rather than kind of big bang change um much too late. So, that that was really really good.
(1:00:00) Um and the importance that connection to strategy um and what that looks like in practice. And I love the phrase a lot of strategies are glittering generalities. I think we we see that often. That's going to be great. That is going to go into the dictionary. So, it is. Yeah. No, you guys are great. I honestly love listening to you. You guys are so much fun.
(1:00:18) Um, I've been looking forward to this conversation because, you know, you ask such insightful questions and and I love that, you know, that's what we need, you know, just some genuine detailed questions. So, thank you so much for um, you know, for having me. No, no worries. And and the things that stood out for me is I think the thing is is know the numbers.
(1:00:35) Like, don't be afraid of them. you know, you got to enter the grammar of the people that you're working with and they're governed by the numbers and the results as well. So, that's really important and also reminding of the importance of purpose and getting everyone to connect it so you've got the higher context that everyone connects to as well. Um, there's just so much value in this.
(1:00:54) Um, if people want to connect with you, Jamie, if people want to follow your work, if they want to reach out to you, maybe they've got an organization design project uh that they're scratching their heads about, what's the best way for people to reach out to you? Um so there's a few uh please you know just connect with me on LinkedIn.
(1:01:11) Um I'm on there you know quite a lot and I try and share um some insights or or things that I've you know kind of thinking about or publishing. Um I have my own website which is jamin.co.uk UK that gives you, you know, a few little case studies, you know, some um thought pieces that I've done and I have some courses with CIPD and if you're a CIPD member, some of those are free.
(1:01:36) So, you can actually just hear me out and listen to some of my views um in more detail. Brilliant. I can vouch for the CIPD program because obviously I've been on it. It was excellent and I just I thoroughly enjoyed it and I think there's just the just the just just the resources that come with it too are just brilliant. Well, J want to say a huge thank you.
(1:01:53) What we'd love if you are watching this and you think you know someone that would benefit from gaining uh Jamie's brilliant insights, then please do share it. Um we love the fact that every day more and more people are sharing the podcast. The audience is growing. We're hitting more and more countries all of the time.
(1:02:11) Danny, as as today, how many countries is it? 88 listeners in 88 countries. 88 countries which is brilliant because it just shows just the richness of the OD organization design or organization development community as well. Um if you have enjoyed it, we'd also love it if you hit the like button and subscribe as well because again that also boosts the profile and it means we get brilliant guests like Jamie to agree to come on as well.
(1:02:33) Um but most importantly, thank you so much Jamie. We really appreciate it. It's been it's been such a great conversation. He's exceeded our expectations. So so thank you so much. I think people going to get a lot of value from it. Oh, you guys are too kind. Thank you both so much. Thank you.