Disruption Change and Transformation with Dr Andrew Day - OrgDev Episode 76

Change and Transformation. What if the way most organisations approach transformation is fundamentally flawed?

In this episode, Dr. Andrew Day turns the usual change management playbook on its head. Drawing on decades of work with leaders across sectors and continents, he explores why transformation isn’t something you can manage from the top – and why the real work is social, emotional, and far messier than any plan on paper.

We dig into what really happens to people during change, why standard tools often miss the point, and how leaders can work with – rather than against – the human side of transformation.

Buy Andrew's brilliant book here:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Disruption-C...

Dr. Andrew Day has over 30 years’ experience working with leaders across the globe to develop and improve how organisations function. He believes that lasting, meaningful change happens only when those affected are actively involved in co-creating new working practices and structures.

His work has taken him around the world with clients in the private, public and third sectors, including Ford Motor Company, GSK, BP, Jazz Pharmaceuticals, the UK Civil Service, Cancer Research UK, the NHS and many more.

A former internal consultant at Ford Motor Company and senior member of faculty at Ashridge Business School, Andrew combines first-hand insight into the realities of organisational life with a deep grounding in the research and theory of organisational development and transformation.

He specialises in team facilitation, executive coaching, systemic consulting and participative organisation design, and is the author of Disruption, Change & Transformation in Organisations, which explores the impact and consequences of disruptive change – and how people can navigate it effectively.

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live

We'd love to connect with you on Linked In:
linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
https://www.linkedin.com/in/garinrouch

Transcript

(00:00) Hi and welcome to the org dev podcast. So organizational transformation is not a linear process or a technical project. It's a deeply human emotional and social experience. In times of change, people face loss, uncertainty, and shifts in how they see themselves. Yet change management tools and approaches often reinforce the status quo or avoid the deeper issues.

(00:23) Today, we're joined by the extremely accomplished Andrew Day. His work challenges the idea that transformation can be planned and managed purely from the top and instead he invites us to see change as a social and emotional process that must be worked with not controlled.

(00:40) Andrew is an extremely experienced consultant, facilitator and coach with over 25 years international experience and he describes himself as a scholar practitioner bringing theory into practice and vice versa. Andrew helps leaders strategically design and develop their organization. Andrew is a psychologist by background. is particularly focused on the influence of psychological, political and group dynamics and Andrew works across a wide range of public, private and third sector organizations including BP, GSK, the NHS and the civil service along with several UN agencies as well. Andrew previously worked at Ashbridgeidge Business School where he led its organization development practice and

(01:12) really interestingly Ford Motor Company where he managed its European organization development team as well. Now Andrew has an impressive array of professional and academic qualifications. He's a chartered psychologist holds a master and a doctorate in occupational psychology and a doctorate a second doctorate in counseling psychology and psychotherapy as well.

(01:35) He taught on both the Astridge masters in organizational change and the masters in executive coaching and has published extensive research on coaching leadership and organizational change and really importantly and Danny and I have really enjoyed this book. He's the author of disruption, change, and transformation organizations, a human relations perspective.

(01:53) And you'll see that Danny has absolutely devoured that book by judging by the bacon bookmarks that we can see. So, so welcome, Andrew. It's really lovely join us. [Music] Welcome. We're really, really excited to have you with us and we very much, as Gary said, really enjoyed devouring your book. So just to kick us off, just tell us a bit more about the work that you do.

(02:17) What does your work involve? Well, I'm primarily ex do external consulting across different sectors, different range of clients, pretty broad. The work I'd say I do I do a fair amount of one-to-one coaching usually with senior leaders work with senior teams helping them primarily I mean I think in today's context lead strategic change lead some form of transformation think about their leadership with a purpose and then there's kind of more what I would call kind of systemic consulting working with a kind with a large system multiple interventions over time I I I

(02:53) try to work with large groups in a participative way. That's not always the case, but trying to come alongside, you know, an organization and help them work through a process of change or transformation. Fabulous.

(03:11) And then about the book kind of disruption, change and transformation in organizations, what prompted you to write that? What was the kind of the driver behind that? I think as you said in in I do quite a lot of writing about practice and you know I might do a LinkedIn post or I might do a blog or it might be an article but I think over a period of time I started to see some themes that were emerging across my consulting work.

(03:37) I mean also I started writing it when I was at Ashri Business School. There's quite a lot conversation about what are we seeing in our clients? What's happening? I did a piece of work a research with Kevin Power during the economic crisis. So Kevin was you know colleague of mine. We worked together for 20 years and we were trying to know in the midst of you know the the kind of economic crisis we were talking to our clients about well what what are you experiencing? How are you trying to lead? What's happening? How are people responding? and and some of that research and some of the writing I was doing started kind of making me think about well actually there's not much

(04:14) written on the process of transformation and what that means from an organizational development perspective and then I you know writing is a process of inquiry whereas trying to look at theory look trying to bring together cases of what I'd done make sense of my experience at the time Ashri um was going through quite a lot of transformation So um and disruption and so there's quite a personal aspect to the book of where I found myself in an organization and what was happening to my identity some of the emotions that I was experiencing

(04:50) my colleagues you know feelings of outrage then trying to think about those feelings thinking about I was leading a team through that process I was consulting to organizations and then I was then I started looking back I mean one of the you earlier chapters in the book and I look back at what had happened in the 10 years when I was at Ford of Europe and Ford Motor Company and then I went back and I thought oh I did my doctorate in Lamington uh foundry which was a component plant of Ford and I thought oh

(05:25) I wonder what happened with my research there which was all about introducing autonomous work groups on the shop floor and I found that now that is a super I mean kind of major supermarket chain is on the site I mean it they not only closed the plant but they knocked the whole building down and you know it's now a supermarket and that symbolically to me seemed to represent this kind of social process and organizational process that I think we're all engaged in grappling with you know I I guess you know what's happening at the community there what happened to those people that

(05:59) I worked with I was working with them 20 years ago helping them to survive and it was very much positioned as you've got to do this. If you don't transform in this way, you won't survive. Well, they didn't survive. And then I listed out all the the full plants that I was that were were in the UK um when I joined in 1994 or something like that.

(06:23) And then I listed out the ones that were still there. And it's quite shocking really just to see that how dramatic that change is. I think Ford has gone from something like one of the biggest employers in the UK, you know, it's still a significant entity in the UK. Um, but it's dramatically different than it was before.

(06:45) So, I got kind of curious about what do these processes mean emotionally, psychologically, what do they mean for the process of change? And I you know it kind of towards the end you start it helps you make sense but starting make helping me make sense of some of the big kind of societal dynamics that we're starting to see where I think you could trace some of the politics and the movement towards populism as a response to kind of uncertainty anxiety globalization loss of identity grief at a scale that's not processed and therefore or people are trying to hang on to the past, go back to the good old days. You know, you

(07:25) can see that kind of language within, you know, the political discourse, what happened with Brexit and some of the US politics. Your book was published, I think it was 2020, wasn't it? And you were talking then about that kind of exponential shift in the rate of change and and instability and unpredictability and probably you think about the five years since then, it's kind of accelerated, you know, even more. Well, I was thinking I was thinking this morning, but we're only really on the tip of it because I mean I wrote about all these

(07:53) things I didn't really understand. And you know the this idea of the fourth re four fourth industrial revolution, the internet of things, quantum computing, artificial intelligence, the growth in robotics were all things as I was researching the book that people were talking about and you could see the early signs of it. But we didn't have things like chat GPT.

(08:17) we still haven't got quantum computing or you know I guess there's talk about you know kind of rapid increase in processing size. I mean I don't understand any of that as a psychologist but I think you can you know you you almost what I started doing in the book was go back to previous you know the the industrial revolution itself and to think about well what what has history you know taught us about how people um kind of cope with these dynamics and this level of disruption and I think one of the things I noticed as I was reading you said something

(08:49) around the kind of one of the implications is organizations kind of in being able to adapt to that kind of continual change is having the capacity and the willing willingness to notice emerging trends. And there's a lot that gets in the way of people being willing to notice those trends.

(09:07) So, it's almost like head down, yes, we've got the capacity, but are we willing to actually engage with it and and lean into what that might mean. I think as OD professionals, we know an awful lot about those sorts of processes, those sorts of social processes. And you've got all of the kind of psychic Tavvertock tradition around kind of defenses. um organizational defenses, social defenses, you got Chris Argarus work around defensive routines.

(09:35) Um so I think there's that angle to kind of adaptive capacity is the kind of social processes the kind of leadership that's required and then I think there's a kind of another side to it which also we can help with which is you know how do you design organizations such they have more adaptive ability flexibility capacity for people to respond at a local level and be more networked as opposed to centralized control.

(10:05) Um, which is quite hard for for organizations to respond and nimly and flexibly as as we all know really because cuz transformation is one of those sort of terms that sort of entered the business dictionary, hasn't it? But then it's such a broad term, isn't it? And it means so much to so many different organizations.

(10:25) In in your experience, can you sort of as a consultant out in the field, can you often sort of see a a transformation and know from the very beginning whether it's going to thrive or or potentially hit the buffers as it's being launched into an organization? Oh, that's a that's a hard one. I mean, the word itself, I mean, it is you could you could really deconstruct it and say, well, it's, you know, is it is it even a helpful word to use? But it is it is being used and I think it gets used in very different ways and you could think about different forms of transformation.

(10:55) I mean I think one of the questions is in my experience you've got organizations that are trying to reactively respond and are in a reactive mode and you've got other organizations that are a much more proactive strategic mode. you know, they're seeing an opportunity and a possibility and leaning into it rather than having to transform because they've somehow got too far behind the market, the competitors, you know, what people want from the organization.

(11:26) And I think the former, the reactive group find it much more difficult to transform. They tend to be in a more kind of defensive mode of engaging, of reacting. Whereas the kind of probably because you know there's more of a kind of sense of fear and survival that's around whereas a more proactive approach to transformation usually there's kind of some sense of energy and purpose you know there's there's there's a vision around what we could become or a kind of sense of purpose around why we're doing this and and obviously in the junction we

(11:58) talked about the fact in times of change people fa face loss and uncertainty and and shifts in how they see themselves as Why is it that so many change initiatives don't necessarily pay attention to that when it clearly can have such a big impact um on the potential outcomes? Well, I mean I think it's as simple as it's painful and and people find it hard, myself included, you know, to engage with, you know, difficult emotions and talk about them and explore them.

(12:30) And I think one of the other kind of secondary effects is that one of the dominant defenses against loss. I mean kind of manically Klein talked about the manic defense against loss. You know, everyone gets very very busy and focused on running around doing things, but the action itself is rather than being a productive action of getting things done.

(12:56) It's more of an avoidant behavior that means that we can rather than talk about what we're feeling and what's really going on, we'd much rather invest our energy in doing, but it's a it's an avoidance of something. Um, and so people are kind of skimming along at a kind of relatively superficial level rather than a more of an emotional level, engaging with, you know, what is changing around them and how it's affecting them as as individuals. I I was watching a video that you did. You're doing a presentation on some of the research you've done on top teams. And one of the

(13:26) things that you sort of talked about there is the fact that a lot of senior leaders sort of they haven't they have emotions, they have anxieties, but often they're suppressed or or not discussed. Is is that a sort of a common pattern that you see in top teams? And and what are some of the things that you sort of uh I I think it would be somewhat unfair to pin it just on top teams.

(13:48) I I mean I think groups you would say groups of people find it hard to you know under certain conditions to talk about how they're actually feeling and um what's going on for them and I mean in a way I mean someone I think I think it was June Jean Newman once said to me Dean Newman of the Tavvertock Institute who you know he said something to me along the lines of you know you can explore and find all sorts sorts of dynamics to process within a group or a team. We only really need to focus on those ones that are

(14:25) interfering with the primary task of the team of the or the group. So start first with the task and then think about how the emotional life of the group is interfering or hindering what the group is trying to do. And I think for a top team that way of thinking is really helpful because first of all a lot of top teams are not that clear on what their primary task is.

(14:50) you know, finding their task and agreeing this is what we're trying to do is one thing and then helping them think about yes and how are you doing that? A kind of more reflective kind of mode of operating where they're kind of looking at how they're working together and what might be getting in the way of them performing their task.

(15:08) You know, I find that very helpful and straightforward way of thinking about, you know, about about leadership teams and how to support them as opposed to they've all got an emotional life and we've got to talk about all the emotions around. That's a that's not realistic and it doesn't happen.

(15:30) But secondly, it doesn't tend to work in my super awkward for um and I guess how do you create the conditions for people to talk about emotions though because part of that is sort of showing vulnerability, isn't it, to a certain extent? Yes. Yes. Well, someone asked me this the other the other day. They they kind of said, you know, it's one of these calls where you get said, "Right, this is highly confidential.

(15:46) We're looking for someone to work with our executive team. This is uh we're only talking to a small number of people. We want your opinion." And they told me a little bit about the brief of the context. And I said, "Well, it doesn't sound very safe. So somehow you have to find a way of helping this group feel safe enough that they're going to talk about and they're going to be willing to talk about you know something meaningful other apart from playing you know playing out games with each other and pretending that everything's okay or getting into a big

(16:17) fight with each other. So the setup I say well I think I think the things I I went back to them to say is one you've got to think of the setup you know first and foremost do they want to do work on themselves on their how they work you know big question and if so what would be that work so what would be the contract and then I think there's a piece of work with the leader of the team around well is there enough alignment between or I mean alignment congruence between what you think you want to work on with this team and what the team feels that it needs to work on

(16:53) and then does the you know is there a kind of sense that the team wants my help you know is there is there a sense that they want to work with me in the way that I would work with them and then I think it's you know so there's quite a lot of kind of setup conditions where would we meet is it is it away from the office um you know kind of shine would call it a cultural island.

(17:20) You know, we might think about it as a as a as a space away from the everyday work. And then can we can we find a way into the work that speaks to what they need? And that usually is some some task or goal that they feel that they need to achieve and that they feel some level of anxiety about and that you can then find a way of working you know helping them work together where they're going to feel that actually we're more likely that we can achieve that common aim.

(17:56) I think Marv Weisbaugh, you know, he made a point about focusing on the common ground and finding the common ground. And if we can find some common ground and we can find something everyone wants to collaborate on, then focus on helping them collaborate towards that goal and then find find where the dynamics might be getting in the way. Um, and then I think there's a case I tried to think about, well, how could we get into working on those dynamics in a way that isn't going to amplify the the anxieties too much so that people are going to avoid doing the work that they need to.

(18:25) And if anyone's watching this, it's so easy to skip these steps, isn't it? There's so much pressure to go quickly, but you have to lay a strong foundation to create the conditions. And I I really love what you're saying there in terms of making it safe enough. that you can't extend and guarantee safety, can you? Well, I think the good thing is life life teaches you lessons, doesn't it? And once you've I mean, I I've I've had enough goes around the block where I've you know, I've had clients say, "Oh, well, we haven't got time to do all of

(18:54) that upfront stuff and don't worry, it will be fine." And then me kind of going, "All right, I'll take a punt on this." And then it not working at all. And uh then you know you've always got to hold in mind when it doesn't where does the blame go when something doesn't work out well it goes towards the consultant and I mean in a certain sense rightly so because they're looking to you to hold them and to think through what works and clients I think there you've always got to find within the work there will always be an energy in the client system for change and for development and there also be an energy

(19:31) which is a more defensive energy for how can we get what we want without doing the work that we need to do with each other. And so at some level you've got to hear the invitation into that kind of second dynamic because we all myself included you know you want you know you want you want the outcomes but you don't really want to go through the process to get you there sometimes but it's the process that you have to go through.

(19:56) Hi we're just pausing this interview for a moment. Have you ever finished an episode of the org dev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points? Us too. So, we made one. It's called from pod to practice. And each week in our newsletter will share a two-page summary of the latest org dev episode.

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(20:34) live to get the latest from pod to practice in your inbox. And let us know what you think. We'd love to get your feedback. So one question we always like to ask people is is how did you end up working in OD? What was your what was your unique journey? I was really I was I was really lucky.

(20:52) I was doing I was doing psychology at Newcastle University and I even in my second year I had some conversations about changing the course because I couldn't see the applied element. I mean it's I mean I I I look back on my younger self and thought oh you really missed an opportunity there. But at the time I thought I wanted something a bit more applied and I I at the time undergraduate psychology was a bit academic and quite statistical and very cognitive.

(21:24) And then in the last the final year I I hung on in there and then the final year was the first year they did organizational psychology as a as a major subject in the final year and I like the sound of it and I loved it. I finished university not knowing what I wanted to do and went traveling and then I I thought oh that's what I really enjoyed you know I really enjoyed that aspect of my degree I wonder if I can do a masters in it again I was quite lucky because I got in let's kind of pan my career getting in just at the last minute to do a mast's in uh in occupational psychology and then I I did some work with small company um a small consultancy and Somehow I applied for a

(22:03) job and it wasn't clear that this job was with Ford. Ford was very cyclical. Um had a big internal occupational organizational psychology department. With the downturn they'd scaled it back and they were looking for someone not as senior who could just keep it ticking along and I was kind of thrown in at the deep end.

(22:30) had a lot of responsibility stretched beyond what I could really really do at the time somehow survived and more and more then I kind of kept going back to oh what I'm really interested in is large systems organizational development and again I was lucky because Ford has a massive amazing history at the being at the forefront of OD thinking I mean within the US I mean the Miller Tyson had done lots of work on large group, large systems.

(23:01) I mean, I got introduced into some work in one of the subsystems of Ford where Peter Singi had basically done a lot of his work that led to the fifth discipline and all of those models and frameworks and and so on and so forth. And you were exposed, not only were you exposed to the latest thinking, they were doing it and they were up for experimentation.

(23:21) I mean it's a side of Ford I think that doesn't always get external coverage but um no really fortunate I mean this is what 25 years ago 20 25 years ago a lot of work on diversity quality inclusion again I think that was because it was an a US business first and foremost but I found myself after I left for going into consulting to businesses and I was quite amazed at how far beh behind the curve many organizations were in terms of thinking about you know just basic you know equality um uh good practices um so yeah so all of these things you kind of got given it it was it was great opportunity to do really interesting

(24:04) things and the good thing with Ford as well is that if you showed that you could do something then people would trust you and you'd be thrown in to to get on with it and then I was you know went on to work with with Astridge which was again fantastic you know it's a very autonomous culture very experimental so long as so long as you met your targets and uh no one complained about you or clients didn't complain clients didn't complain too much you could do what you wanted where you wanted how you wanted

(24:37) and it was it's a kind of wonderfully kind of experimental place really that and when you were at Ash what kind of things did you get involved in what kind of things were sort of taking your attention. Well, I I mean I I I did a lot of different things really. I did um I did quite a bit of teaching towards the end.

(24:56) So on the on the Astridge Masters in organizational consulting, the coaching masters with Eric Dhan, Charlotte Sills and many others. Then I did I like I always had a bit of a sideline on research and writing just to gain all the things that I was interested in and then a and a good bit of consulting work.

(25:16) you know, you couldn't do too much doing the other things, but you know, bit of a bit of executive education, a bit of work with executive teams, some coaching, and occasionally a kind of interesting OD project. You also did a doctorate in is it psychotherapy as well? How did that sort of gather your attention and what was the draw to that? Because again, that's really looking beneath the the surface of an organization, isn't it? Well, I did uh the Terasok pro uh institute had an advanced organizational consulting program and that had introduced me to

(25:52) the systems psychonamics paradigm. I mean, I always explain to people that my experience of that program is I saw the world in black and white and all of a sudden I saw the world through color and once you've seen the world in color, you can't go back to seeing it in black and white.

(26:11) And through that process it opened up you know invited me to do quite a lot of work on myself you know a big psychotherrapeutic in influence through metaninoa people like Charlotte Sills who has a a very strong back you know she's psychotherapist writes a huge amount in in the field and then Bill Cridgeley Ashridge was a Gishalt psychologist um Eric Dhan is very influenced by you know kind of different bodies of psychotherapy and um I thought I needed to do a bit more work on myself and I was just really interested in it. I really interested in Freud client

(26:50) psychoanalysis rogerian psych I'm quite intricative in my approach like looking at different theories and different ways of understanding things. So he added a kind of a depth to my practice. And what were some of the biggest sort of breakthrough moments? You said you started to see the world in color.

(27:07) What were some of the moments when you started to perceive organizations, identity, groups, whatever, in a different way? It's it's very very hard to once you you've learned something and gone through through the process over many years to go back to how you used to look at things, but it almost a bit more of a questioning attitude of, you know, well, someone might say, well, that wasn't a good meeting, or they didn't behave very well, or these are the bad people over here. And rather than kind of taking that quite literally, one would think, well, that's an interesting construction

(27:37) that these people are bad or what what what might be meant by that? And if these people who are these people and who are the other people who are thinking this and what might be going on in the context that has led to, you know, some form of splitting between good and bad, who's splitting between whom? Well, what might be going on with a level that's not being spoken about kind of anxieties or fears that mean that people have to regress into splitting things into good and bad. And once you start to see that type of process, you know, it's all over the

(28:14) place within organizations. Um, and you kind of you kind of I kind of I don't know. No, I mean I maybe the process of of learning was at some level seeing organizations as kind of primarily rational and logical places to actually realizing they're just completely bonkers and maybe that should be the tagline for podcast.

(28:41) The madness of the kind of um craziness of organizational life and that you're kind of running around. I mean at at some point I think I kind of found myself kind of running around trying to find explanations for things but if you're trying to find logical explanations things or logical ways forward but actually it's all a bit madness you're kind of working in the wrong domain aren't you? Uh so just a quick followup question to that then.

(29:05) So um how how do you stay on solid ground because that is very easy to get sort of taken along into the organization isn't it? And yes, people often postrationalize very emotional decisions and make them appear quite logical, don't they? So, how do you sort of stay on solid ground? Excellent question. Excellent question. Um I would I mean with for risk of sounding like a textbook um I mean I think I think one is the more that you know yourself who you are where your boundaries are what you believe in where your values are what you're seeing what

(29:39) you are seeing and what other people are seeing and what you're feeling and other people. The more you're clear on that the more that you can see where you might be pulled along. And you know, one thing I learned in my psychotherapy training is you've got to be the good thing with psychotherapy is this very clear ro boundaries and roles and then you can notice when you're pulled out of role.

(30:05) Whereas in consulting work, you know, you you if you're not clear on your role and your role hasn't been agreed and you're not clear in your own mind, it's very hard to see where you've been pulled out of role. Um, so that's another guiding principle for me. I think good supervision, you know, regular supervision and if you haven't got um, you know, you can't talk to someone immediately, kind of talking to a peer, getting, you know, there's people I know that I would phone up and say, "Can I just run this through you? This doesn't feel right." Um, and I think trusting your int intuition. I mean, I think

(30:38) I I I've learned over the years if something doesn't feel right, if you don't feel that you're doing something that you actually believe in, but you're being pulled along, then just trust your intuition and try to find and reflect on what is going on. And even if you can't work out what's going on, something is going on. You just can't see it yet.

(31:01) And then I I think the the kind of final thing is it's just a discipline of reflective practice of constantly coming back and questioning you know what am I seeing what am I trying to do what am I feeling did that work did it not you know and trust that uh that that process at least keeps you honest with yourself and and then obviously there's a lot of people that watch this podcast that are internal and I've heard lots of stories um really positive stories about the work that you've learn in or in the civil service for example about people feeling resourced. How how do you help people feel because it's harder is it?

(31:37) You're sitting within a a hierarchy. There's lots of demands on you pulled in different directions at least with a consultant. There's a little bit of distance that they can sort of pull a bit kind of Sophie Per who I know you're going to talk to Sophie in in the coming months. We wrote something.

(31:55) We wrote a piece based on a piece of research because we were we noticed that in large the larger pieces of work we did there was always an internal an internal group an internal consultant that we are partnering with. And then you end up with these triangular dynamics of client internal external.

(32:18) And if you're not clear on your on your roles, on the contracts of how you're going to work together, you're going to get poured in all sorts of messes. And it, you know, I think the OD axiom of, you know, what you're trying to do is build the systems capability to solve problems for itself, to adapt for itself, to learn for itself. So you're trying to make yourself redundant.

(32:44) If you're honest to that value and that principle, then you need to find who the internals are. You might not know who they are. Try to contract with them and build a relationship and recognize that you you need to be working in some form of partnership that builds their relationship with the client. Um, and that you're not undermining the internals to build up your position.

(33:09) But equally sometimes it creates quite tricky you know kind of territorial difficulties between the internals and the externals. You know you if you're not careful you end up competing with each other for the relationship with the client. And um and I think you just got to be really mindful of of of where your own anxiety as an external consultant might pull you into those top d.

(33:32) I think the other thing that helps me is is is having been an internal and when we were writing Sophie and I were writing this piece I was going back and reflecting on some of my um you know how I behave sometimes as an internal and it it wasn't always uh you know it's not always moments that I look back on with pride.

(33:55) They weren't my, you know, sometimes, you know, we'd have the large consultancies in and I'd be like, "Hang on a second." You know, what what are you doing here? You know what? I I thought I was here to help here. And you know, suddenly you appear and you know, you know, your own kind of envy of like, oh, how much are you getting paid for all of this work? And um is what does this say about me that you know and you you know somehow you know as an extern now being on an external one has to have some empathy and and some understanding for what it what it's like to be an internal and I think how can you you

(34:28) know recognize what each party has to bring because as an external you very rarely really understand the politics of the organization what's been done before the characters you're working with. I think it's really challenging, isn't it, as an internal as well to have an external say the same thing you've said or tried to say.

(34:47) Yeah, that's so true. Sometimes sometimes you kind of feel a bit guilty because you can see that dynamic at play really. But so going back, I was just struck as you were talking about that kind of seeing the world in black and white and then seeing it in a rainbow and you you can't go back from that.

(35:05) often when we're working with clients, they like the black and white. They like the, you make it, make it black and white and make it simple. And I was struck by some of the things you said in your book about you can't have transformation without disruption and change is messy and kind if we lean into that human relations.

(35:18) Yes. On the side of change and transformation, how do we get people to kind of accept the messiness and lean into that? Well, maybe it's maybe this there's a bit of a clue in your question because how do we get people, you know, I think we can't get people to do things.

(35:41) Um, we can we can in a sense create a space where there's an invitation, yeah, for people to step in. I think Shine is Edgar Shine's book process consulting is is you know there's a number of works that I just think are just brilliant and insightful and I think his whole just whole frame of a helping relationship and what characterizes a helping relationship and if we can we can try to do that and then meet people where they are and I think my own therap you know being in therapy and having worked with people in therapy gives you a kind of realistic kind of understanding of the

(36:15) speed with which people can kind of process deep change and what's realistic and what's possible. And you know, you get to, well, hopefully you get to see a bit more of your own defensive process so you can understand other people's defensive process when it's in when it's in there and kind of watch out for, you know, the moment when you think someone should be doing something or they're not doing it right or um you start having kind of critical feelings of your client or othering them or they don't do this

(36:47) or you find yourself complaining to your colleagues about the client. And these are all clues for saying somehow you've fallen out of relationship and connection. Um, and usually behind that is some projection or something you're not really able to face up to in your in yourself really. That is so important though, isn't it? Oh, so important, isn't it? But it happens so natural, isn't it? It's like because again it goes back to sense making, isn't it? It's just like ah just have a bit of a moan or a little bit of steam off. But in there in the detail

(37:16) are all the clues, aren't they? That show what's really going on. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I think as well, I mean, I I I think we can get hooked on or I can get hooked on, you know, you've got a client that's paying you, you know, which in the grand scheme of the world is a lot of money to help them to do something and they've got some expectations around that and you you can get caught up in your own worries about not living up to expectations, not being good enough, um you know, being criticized uh And that those are the sorts of things I think that quite understandably

(37:53) kind of throw you off balance a little bit. Um but I kind I can you know the heart you once you've gone through and you've you've you've done some difficult work with enough clients you you know the the position that you need to take up and inhabit for yourself which will contain and hold people um that will you know that that helps them through a process. I think that's what I wanted to ask you again. And it was something you said in the book. You talked about technological exploitation very often not achieving

(38:22) its full potential because because it's disrupting the social system and alienating alienating people. And I was struck when I was reading about AI. That's you know how do we fully exploit AI and bring people along on the journey rather than people being afraid by it and scared by it and kind of not leaning into it.

(38:42) About six or seven years ago, my wife and I went to um we were in Washington and we were looking at the different museums, some fantastic museums in Washington. And there was there was a photograph I think it was a photograph or a picture and it was the first iron bridge that had been built in I think it was just below what's you know what's now New York. And this iron bridge got burnt down. I don't know how you burn down an iron bridge.

(39:07) And it got burnt down by the ferrymen who who had the boats that would take people and their whole livelihood and li you know you know kind of income was based on fing one side of the river to the other. And um well of course this iron bridge you know basically ended their I mean presumably you know if not all a very large chunk of their income you know put it to threat and so one can kind I mean I think that's that's the level of challenge that that we face is and that that that organizations face is that we're going to suddenly have professions that are going to start to feel like fairymen and Well, um, you know, what's

(39:56) this going to do with my my profession? What's my role now? Um, it quite a kind of existential threat really. Um, and yet at the same time, I mean, I mean, AI is just I mean, it's just amazing in terms of the kind of technological leap from where we were to I mean, I I was I was joking with some friends.

(40:23) I've got this reoccurring dream that I have and I thought I'll I'll put it in chat GPT just to see what chat GPT says and uh I said can you give me a Freudian interpretation of this dream I mean I was quite taken back you know something that would have taken me I mean I'm not saying that that the interpretations were correct because it was based on you know half a page of notes um but it made me think and then I say can you give me a clinian interpretation can you give me a lanian interpretation and can you give me and not only did what it come back with was a perspective on the differences on the theory quickly but what it said was you know I'm pretty

(41:00) familiar with the with the literature and I know you know it's just unfathomable so uh I I you know I did at one point I said oh you know what's uh what's how's AI going to threaten me then I had we we c we caught up with some old friends of of ours and you know I haven't seen them for six seven years.

(41:24) He's a social researcher uh does large social research projects in a European institution. They get funding from the EU. They do large data sets on social opinions across Europe on topics that are interest of interest with the EU or different governments. And then he told me about how they've started using over the last three or four years AI to do their analysis and their you know you know all the analytical work for these big data sets. This is you know in the space of what would have taken us months or years to do instantaneously you've

(42:02) got this data. I mean, we had the conversation about a what that would enable him to do and how it changed his role, but also I kind of said, well, you know, a bit of me was like a bit of me felt a sense of loss of and I remember all those hours I put into doing my doctorate to learn these analytical research methods.

(42:28) um those hours sitting coding pieces of paper for my thought trips uh writing it all up then going back and saturating myself in the data and listening to tapes again and you could probably put it in chat GPT now and you know and get probably something of an equal if not better level of quality out of it at the end of the day I mean yeah it's hard to uh hard to comprehend so so how do you equip a leader that is about to embark their team on an AI journey where because again a lot of that is starting to happen now isn't it where they're starting to say look automate your processes um and there's

(43:03) different levels of intervention aren't there people just in their own role individual role but there's a sort of a bigger perspective how can you do it where it becomes less fairy man and more partnership and where people actually engage in it well I think what you've just said I think this thing about partnership and paying attention to I mean in the kind of to have a sock edition you know the social technical system not just the technical system and I think I think as an organizational you know kind of perspective there's a kind of ethical responsibility

(43:33) not you know sometimes I you know I think many organizations do think an ethical level about the consequences and how can they support people but I think there's an economic aspect to that if people see that you genuinely don't really care and you're not considering the impact on them then they're going feel like fairymen and they're going to resist um and try to subvert uh what's happening.

(44:00) I you know how I mean it's a big question. I I I think as well I mean I think I would go back to principles of kind of action research trying to think oh well I understand how to do this and what you need to do up front is probably not the case but saying okay well let's go work in cycles of well let's let's work out what what it is we're trying to achieve let's gather some data it doesn't have to be really comprehensive data that's made easier ironically through AI you know kind of to look at that data with people and with the right

(44:32) people um and to involve people in you know kind of Luwinian idea of involving people in looking at well how the system is changing and what actions can be taken. So just switching gears a little bit, what do you enjoy most about the work that you do? What really sparks joy? Makes you think this is a good first of all.

(44:56) I mean I if you go back to what I was saying earlier about not knowing what I wanted to do as a as an undergraduate. I mean I fortunate I found something that I just love. I mean I I do this as a hobby. I can't see myself you know kind of retiring partly because I I enjoy the work. Um, you know, I I enjoy the kind of the kind of depth of thinking that one is never really sure what's going on and there's not things aren't black and white, they're always shades of gray and there's that level and then I, you know, it brings you into I mean, we get the opportunity to I got to work with all of these different sectors in different

(45:31) countries with people from different, you know, kind of cultural backgrounds. Um, you get to hear about their lives. It gets it helps you think about the bigger context that we're all working in. You learn about really interesting things, you know, from how the civil service works to how the NHS works to these large global corporations. Yeah.

(45:55) I mean, it's it's uh, you know, I guess it's an exercise in learning and uh, and and I feel challenged every day. I mean every day you kind of think well how how am I going to do this or what do I need to do today? It's not like and on the flip side you said about challenge what do you find most challenging about the role? What is it you you find quite hard? I mean it's probably that a a bit the emotional side. I mean if you're doing good work you kind of you've got to be in it with the client enough to be able

(46:26) to empathize and connect. um you got to be outside of it enough that you let them own the problem and it's not yours. But that judgment is not always easy to make. um you know being an external there's always the question of you know kind of ongoing insecurity whereas you know I might be busy now but you know you you you know in a certain sense you know the kind of week the week before lockdown in the UK you know I was fairly busy and then within the space of a week every client I had wrote to me and said

(47:01) sorry we can't continue this I mean it ended up being a good year but you know in a certain sense that that for me was a bit like oh you know uh one one one feels you know there was a certain you know I heart back to the days of I mean I think it's a false security by the way but I felt more secure in Ford because it's this huge great big organization but of course you know someone in the US could have said oh we're going to have a reorganization and we're going to you know but you know I I I I find that aspect

(47:37) you know, kind of preoccupies me at times. And then when you look back at your career so far, what are a couple of the biggest lessons that you've learned that you share with others? Oh, lessons. Well, as I was saying before, you know, hard lesson learned, trust your intuition.

(47:56) If something doesn't feel right and then you've reflected on it and you've thought about it and it still doesn't feel right, then trust that. And all the times I haven't trusted it is I've regretted it. I mean that I think most times I haven't trusted my intuition. I've regretted it. That's that's that's a lesson. Um I think there was one there's something about power in organizations.

(48:16) I mean I was um I did a case study. I had we did a I was involved in quite a big internal consulting project Ford and I wrote a case study for the Tavvertock program that I did. And whilst I was in the system doing the work, I was not fully appreci I mean I must have been aware and cognizant of the power dynamics.

(48:41) But it was only when I wrote it up that I realized that in the way that we'd done the work we basically mirrored and followed the power the existing power dynamics within the organization. And that that I found a bit shocking really because it wasn't something consciously that I did.

(49:02) But I've been there 10 years and you know at some point it triggered me to think well actually probably is a good time to leave because if you're replicating the power dynamics and you're not aware that you are you maybe you've become too socialized and you can't quite see with the same clarity. Um, so there's there's probably kind of that kind that theme of you never fully can see or appreciate the dynamics that you're participating in.

(49:30) And I think, you know, and and at some point it will reveal itself if if you care to look. And I think that probably is a good lesson for all of us in consulting, but in life in general, is that we always think that we sit outside of these dynamics and we're consciously aware of what we're doing and how we're interacting. Well, we're not.

(49:55) We're always somehow, you know, participating in the very thing that we're trying to change or that we, you know, we might not quite see it. And, you know, that's fair. We should be we shouldn't be too hard on ourselves in that regard because I think that's just human nature. But it's quite a useful thing if you can if you can catch as a consultant because then you gives you an insight in terms of some patterns that perhaps you and others can't see because often you only seem part of the pattern, aren't you? That's that's always the challenge and I guess it's that power of reflection in the moment. So it's just it's not a case of waiting for for months later where it all

(50:26) becomes really clear like how can you sort of do it in more real time is always the challenge, isn't it? I think so. Yeah, that's a good, you know, I mean, I guess, you know, you can't that there is no such thing as a system. You can never see the system, you know, you can fool yourself that you can stand outside the system and see it.

(50:44) We're always part of it and participating in these patterns. Um, I think the kind of Stacy's ideas of complex responsive processes and kind of acting, you know, kind of reflexivity are very helpful in think about those sorts of processes. H how does a person with two doctorates invest in their own learning and development? Like what what else is there to learn? How do you stay sharp still? Well, I think I think to I mean I think the the kind of realities are I I got at the end of my first doctorate I suddenly got interested in unconscious processes in organizations because some weird stuff happened where all the things that

(51:23) you know almost overnight everything completely reversed itself because of one or two decisions that revealed a whole lot of stuff that was happening which I hadn't fully picked up on. So I I ended the process thinking that actually what I'd learned is how little I knew and had picked up on. And you know that's probably where where I got to um with my psychotherapy training.

(51:50) And that in a sense is a bit of the dichotomy. I mean I don't think it it wasn't me that said it. I think it was Plato that said that that that learning is a process of realizing how how what you don't know rather than what you do know. which is a bit of a paradox because I think clients often employ you because they think that you know something and really what you're taking them on is is is a process to step into what they don't know and that you don't know but to accompanying them through that in a creative way so that they can

(52:17) you know discover something new and if anyone knows how to put that in a compelling proposal yeah well as you can see I can't put anything in a kind of clear inside compelling way I think we terrify a lot of with our clients. But but it is about that getting to learn.

(52:36) You've got to learn to work the client has to learn to work with you and vice versa, don't they? And that kind of moving away from the not knowing the kind of like the modernist way of and the certainty as well is is quite a paradigm shift, isn't it, for a lot of lot of people that you're working with. Yeah. I mean, coming back to some of your earlier questions, I think the bigger the bigger challenge that I have as a professional is to how to sh as you know, you got to show up in an ordinary way. You've got to use ordinary language. You can't use the technical language and you've got to meet people

(53:01) where they are and all of the stuff that we're talking about. You've got to leave at the door and show up as a person and be helpful and trust that you can help people without, you know, being, you know, kind of falling into some kind of technical expert that somehow got the answers.

(53:20) We'd obviously recommend people read your book, but is there another book or a resource that you'd recommend or you particularly like? I I really like this book. I mean, you'd probably come across it. is pretty you know ch can you see that um Paul Vasavik changed principles of problem formation and problem resolution I mean people who don't know Vasovic he worked a lot with Gregory Bateson and with Gregory Bateson was really at the forefront of thinking about family systems therapy and it's a really great simple book that talks about the the basic principle of how the solution ends up being the problem in lots systemic intractable problems and how this whole idea of paradigm shifts

(54:03) of how we get to the limits of a paradigm and then we try to do more and more of the same which produces more and more of the same and it's a wonderful book more through giving really simple straightforward examples of stuck patterns of how they could be unstuck. Um, so in in a way if you kind if you could read that book and you could understand it and you could apply it and I don't think you really need to know much more really about organizations or like brilliant. Well, there's there's a different book.

(54:34) Yeah, I was going to say that's on our reading list. Brilliant. Um, and one of the original missions of the podcast is to inspire the next generation of organization development people. So whether they're internal, whether they're there's just they're thinking there must be another way or they're just at the beginning of their OD career.

(54:54) What what advice would you give them? I think the first advice is follow your passions, follow what you believe in, uh what you're what you enjoy. Push always try to stretch yourself. I mean look for you know what's the adjacent space what you're doing. Find great people that you can learn from. I mean I kind of look back on my career either you read their books or you find an opportunity to work with them and yeah look for opportunities.

(55:23) I I kind of thought you know I I think having run a masters with people sometimes people you know sometimes well I am I'm not doing that or I don't have the chance to do that. But the great thing in organizational life is there's lots of opportunities that you can find and not to try to not try to convince.

(55:42) I think the difficulty with OD is telling people up front what it is at trying to communicate something in a in a kind of kind of rational logical way. The best way to I found was to find people that you could help and do something helpful with them. And then people will say things like, "I don't know what you did there, but that meeting was completely different from the meeting we would usually have." And it was really helpful.

(56:05) And then lo and behold, people phone you up again and then start giving you referrals. And you do that enough, you suddenly find yourself working on some really, really interesting things and opportunity. I think that's so important, isn't it? We get contacted a lot by people going, "How do I get started?" But an organization is a laboratory, isn't there? There's just so many different places to practice, opportunities to find and and change is everywhere, isn't it? There's always a place to cut your teeth and learn no matter where you are in an organization. I mean, I would Yeah. And and networking, I would add. I mean, I think

(56:35) it's I kind of tried to think of networking is in my experience, if you if you if you're just meeting with people that are interesting and everyone is interesting, possibilities and opportunities always arise from conversation and you know, it's a bit like us talking now. You know, you know, if you talk to a if, if you genuinely meet people with a level of curiosity and wanting to learn and understand them and see the world as they're seeing it, then things happen.

(57:06) And I think that acting into the world with that intent is just is very very helpful. Brilliant. Well, Andrew, I want to say a huge thank you. I could literally keep this conversation going all day. I don't know about you, D. I really I really enjoyed it. There are so many questions I want to still ask as well.

(57:24) So it's been really really useful. Um Danny, what for you were going to take away from the conversation? A treasure trove of things to to take away. Um I think some of the things that struck me with when you talked earlier about the focusing on the primary task of the the team or you know whatever you're working on that look look at what are getting in the way.

(57:44) I think you shared some really powerful questions to kind of ask at the kind of upfront like contracting when you're contracted for a piece of work and then the discipline of reflective reflective practice and how important it is as as practitioners to just really build that into the way we work. Brilliant. Yeah. And I I I call this things I think you know like really reiterating the point of the importance of building a strong foundation to create the right conditions and no matter how seductive it is to skip a step just remembering what the eventual outcome will be if you don't do it as well. the the importance about how you sort of create a safe enough environment to do the work um to allow people to do

(58:13) it. I really liked what you say in your approach around how managers and teams can approach AI in a slightly different way by taking an action research um approach as well. And I think one of the things I've just really enjoyed about the conversation is she brought a really refreshing honesty to it, which is, you know, the lessons we learn along the way, uh, which I think is is really important and I think it's really important that as consultants and as internal practitioners, we share that as well. And also just the millions of book

(58:37) references you've got. I've got about six out of here, Danny, I don't know, you've got. So I think it's really, really useful. Um, Andrew, if people want to reach out to you and follow your work, you do brilliant stuff on LinkedIn, for example. um what's the best way to and obviously we'll be sharing all of this in the show notes. Yeah. Well, just drop me an email, drop me a message on LinkedIn.

(58:56) Always great to hear from people, people in the field up for conversations. I I think there's you know I think you know this idea of networks a kind of field of professionals I saw you know there's a kind of I feel that there there's a European network of OD professionals that are you know hopefully increasingly connected and and I really value that. So always up for talking to people.

(59:21) Danny give the book a quick wave because it was that good. We do really recommend people to read this book as well. That will be in the show notes as well. um is a it's a really good read and and it's you know it's it's a very accessible read as well. Um so for those of you watching it that you've really enjoyed it and you think I know somebody that would really benefit from listening to Andrew's insights then please do share the podcast. We get so many shares every week from people. So what's really nice so if you know someone who's maybe

(59:45) struggling or just taking the steps in their career then please share it with them and also hit the like button and subscribe as well. We're growing the audience all of the time. Danny, how many countries are we in now? Uh 76 I think. six countries which is great. We're big in India and we're big in Germany now.

(1:00:02) So, so which is great and that just shows how wonderful it is that the OD community is really growing as well. But most importantly, I just want to say a huge thank you Andrew. You've been really generous with your time and your insights and your expertise. We've really enjoyed it and I'm sure our audience will enjoy it.

(1:00:14) So, thank you so much. And thank you to both of you. likewise were very generous and I've really appreciated the interest uh in my work and the questions and where we've gone in the conversation. [Music]