Become a Next Generation HR Leader with Dave Ulrich and TV Rao - OrgDev Episode 75

What if the future of HR isn’t about getting a seat at the table - but redesigning the table altogether?

In a world shaped by paradox, uncertainty and stakeholder pressure, the next generation of HR leaders must be architects of value—not just participants in strategy.

It’s about creating human capability that drives stakeholder value—for employees, customers, communities, investors and boards. 

For this episode, we're joined from the US  by the Father of modern HR, Dave Ulrich and the Father of HRD in India, TV Rao. They’re both architects of the Global HR Leadership Experience (GHRLE), a new 100 day development program aimed at preparing the next generation of HR leaders who can deliver value for multiple stakeholders across global contexts.

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live

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linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
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Transcript

(00:00) Hi and welcome to the org dev podcast. So what if the future of HR isn't about getting a seat at the table but actually redesigning the table altogether? In a world shaped by paradox uncertainty and stakeholder pressure, the next generation of HR leaders must be architects of value, not just participants in strategy. And it's not about HR for HR's sake.
(00:24) It's about creating human capability that drives stakeholder value for employees, customers, communities, investors, and boards. And that means rethinking everything from the outside in. Today we're joined from the US by the father of modern HR, Dave Olri, and the father of HRD in India, TV RA.
(00:43) We're absolutely honored to be joined by two architects of the global HR leadership experience, a new 100day development program aimed at preparing the next generation of HR leaders who can deliver for multiple stakeholders in a global context. Dave Orig and TV route are two of the most influential voices in the evolution of HR. And now they've come together with some of the very best in HR to shape its future.
(01:00) Dave Oric needs little introduction. He has shaped the field through decades of pioneering research, practice, and writing. He's the Rensis Lyart Professor at the University of Michigan and a partner of the RBL Group. He's authored over 30 books and 200 articles. Um, and he's delivered workshops in 90 countries and advised over half of the Fortune 200 companies.
(01:18) His frameworks have become staples in both academic and practitioner circles. And even in that illustrious career, Dave continues to ask provocative questions about how HR and leadership create value for stakeholders, not just shareholders.
(01:36) Professor TV Ralph is widely regarded as a pioneering force in shaping the field of human resource development globally. He co-founded the National HRD network and was instrumental in establishing the first HRD department in India in 1975. Professor Ralph served as a professor for over 20 years and later chaired the RAL group of institutions and TVRLS his HRD focused consulting firm. He's played a critical role in building HRD as a discipline root in Indian organizations and context and he's authored six deep 6 books and research papers which is incredible. He advises governments, public sector and private sector
(02:09) organizations and educational institutions in India and globally. His lifelong mission remains strengthening institutions and individuals through values-based development, leadership and learning. Um, and Danny and I are absolutely honored to have you join us today, gentlemen. So, thank you. [Music] As Gary said, we're delighted to have you with us.
(02:36) So, just to kick us off, so you've both kind of shaped the field of HR and OD for for decades. As you look at the profession now, what feels most urgent to you about how we develop our HR functions and our HR leaders? Well, I think we have seen in India at least HR go through a whole series of stages. The first stage when we started human resource development was largely focused on personnel administration and a little bit of welfare, employee welfare.
(03:05) uh when we did our work with Larsson and toro and asked people what kind of performance appraisal we want to that is how we started most of the managers said that we if we have to perform we want to we want the organization to create conditions for us to perform which means help us to be committed uh to the job which means you should understand our needs and things like that so we came up with a 3C framework at the time which is building competencies constantly.
(03:37) We didn't use the term competency at the time that was not the currency. Competency currency came much later. We use the term attributes building attributes qualities required to perform the job and also culture create culture in the organization which we call as enabling culture. So commitment, competence and culture building. I think we how we and we thought that the personnel department is not equipped to do this because personnel was largely administration.
(04:03) Administration meant rules and regulations telling people what to do what not rather what not to do. So we said we need to create a new department and that is when we created a human resource development function with about six subsystems at the time and soon we found that there's quite a bit of you know that was the years when in US training and development was getting the new term called human resource development and many who went to US came back to India and converted their training department into HRD and we
(04:35) thought that was a dilution of the entire HRD concept which that and that is how we formed the national HR network to promote HR as a philosophy. Post liberalization India was I think the first 20 years 1975 to 9293 was in a different world altogether very closer kind of a country 9293 when we liberalized and then we let multinationals come in the standards changed equality became very important that's a Japanese influence and productivity business profits and there was a huge employee retrenchment uh so and Then it some of the IT companies
(05:17) came into picture. So the focus shifted to quality uh and uh productivity kas and things like that. Post 2010 I think we got into employee engagement, employee experience and things like that. Post pandemic I think it moved to now ensuring that the people have a quality of life to live.
(05:43) Therefore in in a country like India and that's true I suppose in most of the world families are important relationships are important security is important mental health is important and so on and now we are in a phase in the last two to three years AI is shaking the world and I think India is known to be quick at least in talking about adopting it so we are in a technology world where everyone is questioning and lot of employee turnover lot of employee turmoil lot of wukau uncertainty that are happening. So HR has a phenomenal challenges. I see it as a lot
(06:14) of opportunities for HR because for me people and business are two sides of the same coin. You can't do business without people. Do business is meant for people and it is people who do business. So I think that's that's the way it is.
(06:34) So that's where we are and I that's where the program that which Dave and team are offering in which I happen to be a small partner in this GHR le is something which prepares people leaders for the future to be future HR leaders laying solid foundations being sensitive to the communities contexts that are changing I think what Dale calls inflection points I'm just going to suggest that the future builds on that And in two ways uh three ways number one as Dr.
(07:05) TV Ralph said this is an inflection point and the inflection point you said it Garren very nicely is HR is not about HR it's about winning in the marketplace because if we don't succeed in the marketplace there's going to be no workplace and so we're seeing an evolution that's a pretty dramatic one that when I in HR go into a meeting I don't start by talking about my HR program hybrid work leadership culture compensation I start by talking about what do our customers need, what do our investors need? And as Stevie said so well, what do our quality of life with families? So for me, an inflection point is HR is not about HR.
(07:43) It's more about building success in the marketplace. And and that's different. I think that affects OD. If I'm an OD person, I'm not here to facilitate a team just to get the team working better together. I'm doing it so that that team together will help the organization where I live be more successful in the market.
(08:02) What's going to really help HR leaders make that connection between human capability and kind of business value and stakeholder value and and customer value? When you can answer that, you will never need to do a podcast again. I mean, it's it's it's one of the challenges. I mean, and I'll give myself as an example. Yeah. I go to a by the way, I'm being personal here to make this real.
(08:23) I go to a doctor and they do all the checks and then they close the door and say, "I'm gonna tell you something really unique. You need to lose weight." And I'm going, "Really? I know that." I think a lot of what we know and and TV, you did it so well. We know about commitment and culture. We know about quality.
(08:40) We know about We know these things. And this is where we need the discipline to turn what we know into what we do. We're trying to do it. And and some of it is training, some of it is mindset, some of it is behavior. But we hope we can help people, the next generation especially build that value that they want to create.
(09:00) That doesn't mean I'm gonna quickly I always ask people what they had and I need to be eating rice for dinner to be more like TV. I'd love to ask you Danny, what does it take to make change happen? We know what to do but we don't do it very well. Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I think part of it is making space to do it.
(09:17) Kind of building that kind of that space into our diaries and our way of working so that we're not constantly kind of reacting and firefighting. is there's something about us as a profession creating a space to go actually take a step back. We're designing a 100 day training journey 8 days in person and people are saying can you name that eight days and do it in maybe four maybe three maybe two maybe do one podcast and I'll listen to it while I'm driving to work and then I'll change.
(09:42) No, I love that comment. I love that comment. Behavior change doesn't come quickly or easily. It takes space and time. Thank you. That's so well said because one of the questions I want to ask is like where do sort of HR teams get their cues from because again if you're in that reactive mode you haven't necessarily studied in the strategy and the in the way it needs to sometimes it's not explicit what HR teams need to do within the strategy you have to read between the lines but there's also other places they need to look as well in terms of what needs to be done so where where do you sort of see modern HR leaders needing to look to get their
(10:13) cues about what they need to do is this an encouragement to pitch your podcast they need to go to org dev and uh Listen, uh I I I mean I think we in HR need to take our cues from being really focused on the business. I'm going to go back and give a little very simple case. I'm trying to do a training program. I'm trying to do a compensation program.
(10:36) So I go into an executive team and I say, "Here's my training program or here's my compensation program." That's the wrong signal. I think when you walk into that room as an HR or OD professional, your first observation is here's what customers in our industry need from us. Here's why investors are investing in us. I was in one firm. Their price earnings ratio was 20% below the industry average.
(10:56) There were 40 billion US company. 40 billion picket. That's $8 billion. I said that to the HR person. He said, "Why are you talking about this? I'm talking about it because if your work in training and compensation and culture and development doesn't affect that price earnings ratio, then you're not going to be relevant.
(11:15) " I said it to the executive team and the executive CEO looked at me and he said, 'You don't think I know that? If I can't fix that 20% gap in price earnings, the value of my stock versus competitors, I'm going to become a consultant. That's a bad joke. And if you can't help me fix that, then I'm not going to I'm not going to be able to help.
(11:36) And I think if that's the mindset, it is so critical. I'll give one quick example. retail store, big retail store, could be anywhere, could be in the UK, happened to be in the US. New head of HR, she did some research and we need data. Where does this come from? We need data. She found in stores that had an average employee engagement, the basket size was $40 pound euro rupees.
(11:59) In stores with higher employee engagement, the basket size was 48. Hund$undred billion dollar firm. She said, "It's a 20% increase in basket size if I can increase employee engagement." Everybody said, "Oh, you're going to go ask for $500,000 to build a training program." She said, "No, I want to create 20 billion.
(12:18) " And when she walked in and said, "I'm here to help us create 20 bill." Everybody said, "It's too much." She said, "Good. Cut it in half. 10 billion." She didn't ask for 500,000. She asked for a billion dollars. That's the new HR. Isn't that exciting? And she got it. She got it.
(12:35) To me, that's kind of redefining HR, not from inside what we do, but what's that going to create in terms of revenue and investors and customers and communities. It would be really fun to listen to your podcast over the last few months. What percent of time do these OD specialists talk about the customer, the investor, the community, and the value we're creating because of what we do? That's Danny and and and Garren.
(12:58) That's the mindset we want to begin to create for next generation HR. Guess like looking at the program that you're doing the flow kind of represents that that the stepping stones doesn't it because you kind of sort of start with the environmental context getting people to actually look up and look out which is the bit and then the skills and all those particular commodities then slip into place don't they? I I get so excited I'm sorry TV I'm speaking because I get so excited about this. One of the things we're going to do with the environment we've got TV is
(13:23) going to talk about India. Arthur Young's going to talk about China. P Chem's going to talk about Asia and the World Federation. We've got the leading thinkers in every part of the world. David Green's going to talk about Europe. We got the leading players in every part of the world saying what's going on in the world around us.
(13:41) We in HR need to be conversant about that. And I think that's the logic that we hope to bring. And once you start with that outside context, context is uh uh content is king but context is the kingdom. That's a great quote from Bill Gates that if we know the context, we can then begin to build what we do inside to respond.
(14:01) So, we are so committed to building the next generation and and as are you, you said it in your introduction. How do you build the next generation HR leaders who will know the context and then build the right content to respond to that context? Hi, we're just pausing this interview for a moment.
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(14:58) Question just for you Dr. R is as you've come together with other leaders from other parts of the world. What are you sort of seeing as like sort of common challenges that are facing organizations at the moment and what are sort of unique to to India and and uh and southern Asia? In India there is not one one set of HR people. There are lots and lots of quite a v variety in the HR.
(15:21) But one of the issues with which most HR people are stuck. At one time they were not at all businessdriven. They had no idea of uh business. They were largely numberdriven and they treated people as numbers. Thanks to I think Dave and also a number of us who started talking about HR as a business partner.
(15:41) there was gradual shift of focus and people now started looking at uh business and they think that they have a good role to play but even there many of them are driven by again numbers I still think that they are target driven rather than businessdriven I that's why there's a bigger challenge earlier you asked the question how do we get this mindset to change it takes time but I think we'll have to get them to get them to audit themselves I know is something which we introduce used to can you take some time off look back see what you are doing see
(16:14) what what others are doing can you learn can you understand the environment in which I think this is something of a big challenge getting people to take time off think reflect learn and then plan to redo things I think this requires quite a bit of a mindset change I think we are this I think there are some good examples across the globe so I think that's something which we are working on and interestingly in India India HRD and work as two streams different streams.
(16:45) There are whole set of people who were influenced by NL and started also an association the Indian society for applied behavioral sciences and they run ODCP program organization development program which is purely processdriven. They only sensitize people to processes and they just don't get into any systems. In fact, they are quite anti- structure, anti-systems and so on.
(17:09) HR people on the other hand are a lot more systems driven, a lot more structured and we are trying to marry both these. When we started the first HRD department in 1970s, we said OD should be a part of HRD. Every HR person should be a process consultant. If you have to build organizational capabilities, team capabilities, you need to be sensitive to this.
(17:33) Now this happened because Odai Pari my colleague who is my senior consultant at the time he's no more he died in the year 2010 this is the 100th year we are celebrating his centinary uh he came from a background of both and he worked with ETL he was the first Asian fellow to be put as the NL fellow and worked with agriculture with rural sector with education and so on so I think this impacted us both of us were teachers in terms of our own background wrong. I think that that is how we could see for us is a philosophy is a value as
(18:07) a whole orientation and is that one of the tasks that you can do as a HR person to constantly build in-house capability to get people to review themselves diagnose themselves and so on that is still taking time I don't think we are anywhere I see this GHD as a great intervention if you really look at it because we are now going beyond organization we are also saying that look as a HR leader you have also a responsibility to the community to the customers to all stakeholders that the most important part it takes time but I
(18:42) think somewhere you have to begin and reflection taking time off I think that way this 100 day engagement even a weeks together sharing news ideas we think could go a long way in building preparedness for this one of the things on the uh agenda for the program you talk about and we we're contractually obliged to talk about this is AI.
(19:07) Um, and you talk about accesses and using AI for business to leverage HR's impact. Um, it's such a hot topic and it is having such a a big impact at the moment as well. What is it that you're looking to sort of equip HR leaders with as we sort of enter this new era of AI usage? We could spend many podcasts on this, but um, I'm going to I'm going to give you I love simplicity.
(19:26) My PhD is in taxonomy, which is the science of simple. So I take a step back. What is AI all about? It's very simple. It's about information that improves decisions. That's it. AI accesses information. So we go on AI. We we get it. Two years ago, our daughter who's a professor called me and she said, "Dad, my job's over. She teaches sociology.
(19:49) " And I said, "Why is that?" I said, "Students will never write a paper again. They're all they're going to do is go on chat GPT or some other instrument and they're going to send in a paper. My job's completely over." And I said, "That can't be true." So I quickly got on chat GPT or the latest version and I said, "What's the future of HR in 300 words?" Boom.
(20:07) I called her back and I said, "Monica, sweetheart, my job's over two." Uh cuz that was a pretty good answer. And then I looked at it. AI is an incredible enabler of information. And now it's a genic AI. You have algorithms which become robots. But I looked at it again and I thought, "Wow, that's a paragraph from TV Ralph. That's Linda Graten. That's Peter Capelli. It's not the future.
(20:30) AI does a brilliant job doing research and summarizing what's been done. It cannot yet create the future. And so I think AI needs that human creativity to build the future. A second thing in AI that is again AI is so helpful. You can't you can't deny it accesses information in an incredible way.
(20:50) The first one is we need a we need the human touch to generate the future. Second, I've been using a formula lately, and I've not published it. I will this week, I think. AI times AI. AI is artificial intelligence, the algorithms, times authentic intimacy. Authentic intimacy. I think there is still something to be said to look and to see that that somebody I've just gotten to know loves Legos.
(21:14) Well, AI wouldn't have that. It's a form of intimacy to know something about her values. It's a form of intimacy to look at somebody. I know right now with NextGen some people are getting therapy through AI to be honest that scares me. It scares me because I think there is a need for the artificial intelligence times the employee empathy the authentic intimacy that comes from relationships.
(21:38) So those are my two AI is phenomenal. You can't deny it. Do do you feel that HR has a role to play in helping organizations shape the doctrine around AI because there's you can easily tactically fall into AI and it can sort of make micro decisions but the ability to sort of take a step back and say what is the role of AI is it to enhance human like performance or to um save costs does I'll add one more I mean AI right now if you look at revenue and divided by cost topline revenue divided by cost AI is almost all focused on cost we'll take
(22:09) out people we'll be more efficient we'll drive efficiency as we access information. I think HR has to shape the agenda to yes focus on cost but also focused on revenue. How do you get information about customers and investors and and build market value through that information? So, I'm I'm a realist about AI. There's also a lot of fake.
(22:35) I've been I've been uh scammed on on LinkedIn where people were using AI post to critique me. And when I went back and said, "Why did you critique me?" They said, "It wasn't me. it was a robot and and so I've seen the risk and I think we need HR to manage some of that silly risk as well. You probably have opinions. You've interviewed AI experts.
(22:51) I worry a little bit about the hype. Let's let's get back to the reality. What can it actually do? So yeah, I think I've heard you sort of say that it's both underhyped and overhyped. Yeah, my my take on AI is that it's a it's a great tool but I don't think we have prepared ourselves to use it properly in human resource HR HR management at all.
(23:13) Now what do I mean by this? I think it it's a great tool to understand people in medical science. I think we have developed a hell of a lot and it's a great diagnostic tool because you have I think basics are clear but in HR we still are struggling with mass need hierarchy and we have not gone beyond that to understand what is it in the changed context people need what are the needs of people what are the aspirations of people and things like that if we only have basic data collected uh I think it it will be in a totally
(23:45) uh it will create a totally different way of handling HR what I mean by that is today if you are doing anything like a corpals we're still using the past language and past experiences we have not gone to people we not even recorded what people are capable of doing now we are seeing young children I think 3 years old 5 years old are pretty good in even creating games I think that's a phenomenal competency that we are observing now HR is just not prepared to do that they are still working with the traditional mindset so in my view HR as a technology tool if it
(24:19) has to be used we have to start all over again and start asking basic questions to understand human nature if you don't understand human nature uh and you don't create I think Dave said a very important thing is nothing but it's information and where where are you getting this information we are using the current models of information to work for the future that is not adequate at all I think entire performance management will take a different turn if you start reooking at this recruitment will take a different turn. Like for example, if today if you have to recruit
(24:51) somebody, you look at how technology is saving, how interested is this person in learning about technology. I just said much, but more importantly, how this person cares about other human beings, about the other human beings all around which is very very important. Empathy, emotions, feelings, mental health. I think these are the things which seem to be creating today.
(25:16) Employee preferences are totally different. We still struggling with employee experience defined in the olden days. Are you happy with the furniture you have? Are you happy with the leader? I think we're not going beyond in terms of what is that you want to do in life. People have totally different aspirations.
(25:35) I was just watching a movie in local language where the 12th grade student says that he wants to be a designer of shoes and the father is calling him and saying you all your life I want you a technologist go for engineering you want to make repair shoes he says no I'm not repairing shoes I want to design you know designing shoes totally will have a it's a billion market billion dollar market across the world parents don't understand that see I think basic kind of a question that we are in a different world. We need to understand the technology. We need to understand the
(26:08) human being and so on. So AI as Dave mentioned is a great tool but I think we have to learn to use it and use it very cautiously and it's I think for human welfare that is the most important thing. Purpose of AI should be for human welfare but what's happening today is it is resulting in job losses. very unfortunate.
(26:33) I think people are not being using it carefully, ethically and intellectually. They are not future driven at all. They are very much target driven. Can I get my profit for tomorrow? It doesn't what happens tomorrow? No. Day after tomorrow, I don't care about it. Sell my company and then make some pass and move out. I think there are all issues that need to be looked at.
(26:52) So, it'll disrupt quite a bit in the society. But I think at least some of us particularly HR people have to be valued driven promote integrity and ethical use of AI become very very important and that that takes courage doesn't it as an HR professional to to speak up and and challenge that when it's all about you know let's use AI to to cut costs and reduce headcount and we kind of have we we need to encourage our profession to be brave and step forward and be courageous. I'm just thinking as we're talking about getting the HR profession
(27:20) to kind of be more commercial and think about value creation and think about AI, it feels like the the role in the remit is getting kind of heavier and there's more expectations and more complexity and you know how do we enable the function and the the profession really to to lean into those things? Is that kind of the genesis of the new program that you've you've been pulling together? Was that trying to answer that? Absolutely. I mean inflection point number one, HR is not about HR.
(27:44) It's about creating value for stakeholders. That's an inflection point. Number two, HR is not just about talent. It's about what we call human capability. That's people, my fingers, organization. That's where when you said you're from OD, it softened my heart. I began my career in OD. In fact, I'll tell a quick story.
(28:05) When I was doing my PhD, you had to do an exam before you could do dissertation. And you had, I think, 24 48 hours to write an essay. I still remember the essay. I think I have it somewhere. I should have looked it up. when, why, and how will OD O D? When, why, and how will OD? And I thought it was a really creative 15-page essay. I turned it into my PhD committee. I went into the room and they said, "Dave, this is very clever.
(28:29) We're going to find out in six months if you can be serious, which meant that I'd failed my exam." Uh, and uh, but I still believe OD, you got talent and you got organization. All of our research says which is more critical, the people or the system, the individual or the team, the workforce or the workplace. And it's 3:1 organization.
(28:55) It's 3:1 in all of the research we found. An individual can win a championship or be a champion, but the team wins the championship in sports, in movies. I love that OD focus. I love that OD focus. And that's the second inflection point. HR is not just about the people. It's about the team and how the people come together. And we're going to try to build that. We're going to try to make that happen.
(29:19) So, will we be successful? I feel like Cisphus. I'm old. I've been in this career while I keep trying to move that rock up a hill. I think we're getting closer because our focus is no longer on the rock. It's on what's on the other side of the hill. What's the value we're creating? What's the value we're creating through talent, organization? And then the third dimension is leadership.
(29:43) Are we building leaders at all levels of the company? So Danny, I and and then we built into a training program everything you'd expect. We have assessments, we have guidance, we have coaches, we have in-person, off-person. I mean, we're doing all of the things that you would assume go into an effective training program, but we hope that it'll work and we're really excited.
(30:01) I I see right now there's a big turnover in HR, senior HR leaders and there the CEOs who are picking their heads of HR are going outside the company. I think that's unfortunate. We want to build a trove of HR future HR people, many from OD, many from any area who can create stakeholder value for uh for their company.
(30:24) And and the program actually has sort of a unique pedagogy to it, doesn't it? Because it is like a 100 day program. It's different kinds of platforms are bringing people together and whatnot as well and that's quite different to a lot of programs that are out there. Was that sort of designed with intention to make it stick over time was it? Absolutely. I mean the goal here is not just an idea.
(30:42) It's an idea with impact and changing and that's what scares me is a lot of people say oh I'm going to listen to this podcast and my life will be changed. I don't want to I don't want to pop a bubble that you guys believe but but it's not easy. I mean I need to lose weight. the doctor tells me I've told the doctor I've carried this weight for 50 years.
(30:58) I I'm pretty comfortable with it and it's going to take time to change and I think that 100 days gives us a chance to do that. And the cool thing is everybody who attends is going to find a cohort of new colleagues. We we need new people to work with and we'll find that.
(31:18) So, I'm so grateful for people like TV and PC Chem and and Arthur Young and and I again I start listing I get in trouble. But we have really got a an allstar cast of thought leaders who have said here's the content. Can you now build a pedigogy that will help make that happen? Dave, I I think we we didn't talk about it. I I must admit that your writings have had some impact on me. I used to be focused on individual development but now I'm convinced that over focus on individual development creates a society of selfish people. I think that is what telling me.
(31:50) So what even in this program I ask myself this question what are we doing to change the organization build organizational capabilities? I think I have an answer. I'm I'm sure you would agree with me. Maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong. While we have a one let's say one participant two participants we suggested two people from each organization so that there can be mutual support even if there is one the 30-day preparation and the 60-day followup are going to involve sizable number of people through this one individual who is going to participate that is how I
(32:21) see as building capabilities of the organization while the intervention GHL is meant to build a few CHRO's to be future leaders it is taking the system along. I think we are also uh touching the other people. This is what I assume. Would you agree with that? Very well said.
(32:42) I was just saying I think I think that's an important element, isn't it? Because a lot of people get sent off on public programs and they still come back to the culture that they were working in as well. So there is something around and one of the things that you do there is you actually get people to engage with the person who commissions the work and that they're informed and they can support because you do need that supportive context because these I think Danny and I will talk about.
(33:00) So Danny, you know, you were sort of saying well you went away on a program, didn't you? And when you went back, the organization hadn't changed, but you had. I felt I felt transformed by the experience of kind of low program at Rafy Park and went back into the same organization and I felt radically different and I wanted to do things differently, but the system around me just perhaps wasn't ready for it.
(33:17) So it's it's quite difficult, I think, as an individual. Well, in fact, sometimes what we found and we've done those I've been part of those programs. People go back and they say, "Wow, I was a Ropie Park OD program for two weeks." And I say, "Were you really gone? and uh um and and and it's hard and we're really trying to get projects and applications that that change also the personal mindset and how do you sustain that and then how do you weave that into the organization? You've been a part of OD. I'd love to ask you what's what's
(33:45) the biggest agenda for OD to have more impact? I wrote this essay 40 years ago when will OD I'm still struggling from having failed my exam but um what's your sense? What's OD got to do to have a bigger impact? You've had 78 sessions, 85 countries.
(34:04) What do you sense that OD has to do to have a bigger impact? It's always fun to be the questioner of people who do these podcast. No, we like this. We like this. Well, and I love learning from you. That's why we're Yeah. Well, I think the catchphrase that all organization development practitioners have is it depends. So, but I don't think that's a good enough uh reason for it.
(34:23) I would probably say that um for OD the probably one of the well in the in the 20 years I've been doing OD I've never been asked to do OD it always comes as a problem it always comes as an ambition or a hope for the organization and so it is really about helping the world understand what what OD does and the value that it brings and it's not about coming up with one definition of it because having interviewed you guys are 7 episode 78 um so that's 78 conversations and there's no one way and it's a very broad church and there's a lot of different methodologies and one of the things about OD is that it's not regulated nor is it licensed as well. So that brings
(35:00) lots of variety but I think it's it's really sort of starting to understand what is the value that we bring to organizations and and it's not purely about individual development like uh Dr. RA was saying it's about the fact that you have to work with the system.
(35:15) You know, you have to have an appreciation of it and how it works and that you have to change those things around people in order for them to change as well. I'd build on that and I think some of the things we talked about earlier in this conversation about really kind of making that connection to the the value creation and the point of what we're doing and the so what and why why we're doing it really really matters.
(35:33) Um I think some of the unique value we we bring particularly in our work is often when we're working you know with HR functions they're quite siloed. So the talent team doesn't talk to the business partner team doesn't talk to the the onboarding team.
(35:51) So there's something really important about making the case for the value of that integration across kind of sub functions as well. I I heard two things let me play back to make sure I learned. One is the so that question. I'm going to facilitate a team. I'm going to manage training. So that and the so that forces a mindset outside yourself. The value of what we do is to create value in others. That's one.
(36:10) And the second is because of. So we look at here's a problem. We'll fix it because of an integrated solution. And then he said we we don't want to come with pieces. We don't want to come with parts. We want to we want to build an integrated. That's where the team my fist the organization is more important than the individual.
(36:29) that that you can have individuals who are really good in in football. The winner of the golden boot is on the team that wins the World Cup 20% of the time. 80% of the time it's the teamwork that makes the World Cup happen. And and and the same is true in basketball. The same is true in football, in any team sport, the collective of the team. And that I really like, Danny, is coming together.
(36:50) And so that those are the two that's what I heard you say. I guess what what have you both most enjoyed about being involved in the development of the program so far? I've enjoyed the people I'm working with. We often see people as names. When I went to Michigan, I saw the name CK Praalad who is he was ranked in the thinkers 50 number one for 10 years in a row and he was probably ranked too low.
(37:16) What was really fun for me started teaching in the program that he ran and I was new faculty and he came he said Dave what's your point of view about leadership and culture and organization. I said, "Here's the research." And he said, "What's your point of view?" And I said, "Here's the research." And he walked away. And I could tell he was pretty annoyed. I did not have a point of view. About a year later, I said, "CK, sit down. Here's my point of view.
(37:35) " And he argued with me. And I argued with him. And he stood up and he put his he put his arm around me. He said, "You're now on the team. I don't want somebody who can par other people's ideas. I want somebody who can create a point of view that shapes others." That's what we found. TV Ralph, Pat Chem, David Green. Boy, I just Pat Wright, Dick Batty. I mean, I start going through the allstars.
(37:58) These are all fellows in the Academy of Management. They're distinguished fellows. Bill Connedy, the most incredible group of people and getting to see their point of view at a personal level, not what they write and some editor is edited, but here's how they think. And when CK puts his arm around me and he says, "You're now on the team." I think we're seeing the players.
(38:16) For me, that's been remarkable. Wouldn't it be cool to listen to Peter Ducker think, you know, how did you think about this? Or Ardris, I had a chance I Chris Arus in OD. I had a chance to sit with Chris Ardus. He was a kromagin. He was obnoxious. Um, and he challenged everything I said and I thought Jay Galbreth in or design. I had chance to work with Jay.
(38:41) I am now working with some of the brightest and best people. PC Chem again. I and and TV. Thank you for Arthur Young, others for joining us. That's been my takeaway. Really amazing. And that's an opportunity for that to be embedded in this next generation as well. Oh, I I hope I I mean, one of the metaphors is come into our home, see how we think.
(39:04) I mean, learn with us and I I like that TV can talk about his view, but that's been really helpful for me. Life is continuous learning. Every day is a is a learning. Every person you meet is a source of learning. I think we need to appreciate learn from this and today I think I like what Dave says I keep saying that look HR is not anymore the job of HR department it is a job of everyone we are our own HR managers in fact I think like you started introducing us some people say father of HRD and I like I think you mentioned I have three children none of them is HRD Nandini Raju and Kitika these are the
(39:44) HR and then I go on to say everyone is his or her own father or mother of your HR. You take charge of your HR and in order to do that the job of HR is to inculcate this kind of a continuous learning spirit. I think for me life has been a series of learnings and every every period like uh every every phase that we pass it through has offered phenomenal things and I have had some of the best teachers in my life.
(40:15) I've learned a hell of a lot from all my teachers and I'm constantly learning. When I read uh LinkedIn posts of Dave and a number of others, I think it impacts me. I think about it. I see where I'm I agree where I don't agree. uh if I don't agree I will look inward why am I not agreeing is there some bias that I have so I think there's a lot of absorption capacity to keep appreciating I love uh reading and then appreciating others point of view and see the similarities I quite often see similarities rather than differences and
(40:49) so on I think there is so much I'm going to give an example I'm going to give an example of the beauty of getting to know people t and I showed this before TV is a father in India I have been called a father of HR. This is my family. We've been married 50 years. So this year, my children dressed up in the 70s.
(41:09) Notice the blue suits and and all this stuff. And and it's kind of fun to see what are people like outside of their formal work. So that's where I am a father. I have three children as well and 10 grandchildren. And so we dressed up and we made fun of ourselves. You know, I think that's fun to see how people really live and practice the principles. For me that was CK.
(41:32) When CK, a brilliant, brilliant thinker, I think one of the brilliant, most brilliant thinkers in the world, puts his arm around me. Well, he challenges me. He said, "You don't have a point of view. I can't work with you." Well, but when I get one, he disagrees with me. He didn't say, "Thank you for your point of view." He said, "No, you got it wrong.
(41:47) " And by the way, I looked at him and I he said, "You got it wrong. That's not what HR is." I said, "How can you say that? Strategy isn't what you say either." And we argued in love and and I We hope those who attend this program will have that experience getting to know the next generation so that we pass it on and uh that's the hope and that really hits on an OD principle which is like um change happens through dialogue you know those exchanging of views and and articulating it's so important and that's why there should always be a place for that face to face of and I guess when you do programs like
(42:18) this the bonds are built far beyond the length lifetime of the program aren't that they go far beyond it and they become your network that you you lean on in difficult times and good times as Oh, we we know that. I've taught we've taught a hundred of these twoeek programs without the 100 day at Michigan and the network that leaves there our cohorts and and we'll create that with the 100 days.
(42:43) So, and that's I think what Danny said earlier is the importance of the connection that that brings people together. The other thing that's really intrigued me as I've gotten to know these folks and for the most part they're older. They've they've done over a hundred books. the the HR or CHRO's who are presenting as faculty have been heads of HR in 30 companies.
(43:00) I mean it's a it's a remarkable cohort is their goodness is their personal goodness. We say why are you doing this program? It isn't for money. Um and they're saying I really believe that what we in HR offer is a way for people in organizations to have a better life.
(43:19) And if I can build HR leaders for the next generation who have that what what Dr. TV Ralph said the quality of life with family with community if we can help HR people build that it's amazing I was in a session recently with some CHRO's and I added up there were about 30 of them I said the 30 of you represent 8 to 10 million employees stop and think about that I mean we had big companies we had Walmart we had McDonald's but the 30 of you directly impact 8 to 10 million employees plus families every month what a what a a privilege And it's also an offer.
(43:51) It's a stewardship. Actually, it would be so cool to go through your 78 podcast and find out how many employees are represented by those who presented the ideas of those 78 podcasts. They're probably at least 10 million, maybe 20 million people directly. Why do we still do this? That's my passion at a much more personal level. I think I am I'm like what Dave says. I enjoy every bit of what I do.
(44:16) And I think that's that's so wonderful and so nice of you to have got us into this. And thanks Dave. I think it was yours that got me involved in this and thanks a lot. I think it's if if people are interested because obviously I think we just done the tip of the iceberg in terms of the coverage of what the program is about and all the different parts and all the different faculty that run it as well.
(44:41) If people are interested in learning more about the program or even following your extensive research and writing, what's the best way for people to reach out to LinkedIn program? Go on LinkedIn. I've done a lot of books and and what we're doing with the podcast and LinkedIn is so much more fun because it's engaging. So follow me on LinkedIn, you'll see it. Um you'll see the program, you'll see the nomination, you'll see the design.
(45:01) And if you make comments, somebody said, "Who makes all those comments?" And it's me. I'll spend two to three hours a day making comments on LinkedIn and I love it because you don't look at who the person is commenting. You look at the quality of their thinking and TV, you said it. You want to learn. You want somebody who challenges you.
(45:19) I get challenged by folks I don't know where they're from. They're from Sri Lanka. They're from Bosnia. I get challenged by folks in Iraq where I can't visit, but they're doing some marvelous work in Iran right now in HR. Marvelous work. And I really love that engagement. and we'll have a link to the program in the show notes as well.
(45:39) So if you are interested and want to learn more about it um and there's a lot to learn then please do click on the show notes and learn more about it and have an opportunity to work with people like so thank you so much for your time gentlemen it's been an absolute honor to have you on thank you for joining and giving up your evening for us Dr. to be with us and thank you for joining us for breakfast as well. Dave as well joining us all the way from the US. It's lovely.
(45:57) I know our audience will get so much joy from it and on behalf of the OD and the HR profession, a huge thank you to both of you for leaving such a brilliant legacy and continue to do such great work as well. So, thank you. Thank you. [Music]