Power Dynamics and Leadership - Breaking the Silence with Dr Mark Cole - OrgDev Podcast Episode 42

 In this episode, we dive into the hidden dynamics of power, voice, and silence that shape everything from who gets recognition to who remains in the shadows.

Join us as we speak with the insightful Dr. Mark Cole—author, practitioner, and researcher—who challenges us to rethink these critical dynamics and offers fresh perspectives on creating more equitable and effective workplaces. Don't miss this eye-opening conversation!

Connect with Mark here: www.markcole.org
Connect with Mark on LinkedIn   / mark-cole-18a2633 

The Great Unheard at Work: Understanding Voice and Silence in Organisations
https://www.routledge.com/The-Great-U...
Leadership Unravelled https://www.routledge.com/Leadership-...
Radical Organisation Development https:

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Transcript

Hi and welcome to the Org Dev Podcast.
So who holds the real power in your workplace?
Whose voices are left unheard?
And have you ever wondered why some people speak up while others stay quiet?

Today we're exploring the often unseen dynamics of power, voice, and silence in the workplace — how they shape everything from who gets credit to who stays in the shadow.

Joining us today, we're delighted to invite the brilliant Doctor Mark Cole.
Mark is author, practitioner, researcher, and it's fair to say reflector.
And he's here to challenge our thinking and help us understand some of these critical dynamics.

Mark is the director of radical OD and he's a prolific author of three books, two authored with John Higgins.
And he's currently got a fourth book on the way, which hopefully will give us a spoiler for today as well.

The books that he's written are The Great Unheard: Work Understanding Voices, Sonnets and Organizations, Leadership Unraveled: Exploring the Faulty Thinking Behind Modern Management, which challenges the underpinnings of what is corporate leadership.
And he's also written Radical Organization Development, which critically examines current OD practices.

Mark is also a practitioner and has extensive experience in senior roles in OD leadership and learning across the healthcare sector.
And he's also facilitated the NHS London Leadership Academy.

You'll find links to his books, blog, and website in the show notes today if you want to go further.

He also has a doctorate and his thesis looked at reflective practice, which is a fascinating area.
And he also holds a certificate in organizational change management.

So it's actually brilliant to have you join us today.

Dani, I have been looking forward to this conversation all week long.
It's great to have you with us today.

Thank you very much.

It's been exciting to think, to come, to have the opportunity to chat about some issues.
It is just very exciting to articulate and to have conversations.

I should say, as an OD person, people might notice my voice is slightly strained.
That's because I’ve developed a condition — spasmodic dysphonia.

This is a fantastic term for something very simple, which is when I want my vocal cords to open, they slam shut, and when I want them to slam shut, the bloody things open.

So the quality of my voice can be slightly hoarse on occasion, and it can sound a bit strangulated.
But it should be okay.

I now manage my day. If I've got an event, I won’t speak prior to it, and after it, I won't be able to say anything.

So apologies if the quality might distract, but I will endeavor to get my message across, in the words of Alan Partridge, "I really hope they don’t take my chat away."

But at the moment, I'm just about able to speak.
It's okay.

Thank you. Thank you, Mark. Thank you for explaining. We're delighted to have you with us.

So just to kick us off, we'd really like to understand a bit more about the work that you do and why.
You know, you talked about the importance of that focus you've got on power and voice and silence in the workplace.

Why is that the area that you've ended up focusing on?
Why is that so important?

When I had a sickness, I took some time to consider, what was it that pushed me into this space?
Why was power so important?

And it occurred to me first it was something in terms of my background.
Family dynamics are always quite interesting.
I had a dad who was lovable but quite severe and quite withdrawn, and so very often he would use silence as a way of communicating irritation about something.

And it was an extremely powerful thing, and so as a starting point, and then briefly, I went to work with him.

He did window dressing, so I said to him, “I could dress windows.” Cocky 20-year-old, “I could dress windows.”
So he said, “Alright then, if you can, come and work for me.”

So we spent a year together, and I was really surprised because he was a freelancer.
He went to this shop in Bromley, and he talked to the owner of the shop.

He used his title, “Mr. So-and-So.”
We met Mr. So-and-So, and instantly he didn't call my dad “John” or “Mr. Coles.”

He just called him “Coles.” “Oh, pleased to hear. Coles. Are you here to do the windows?”
I'm standing there thinking, you two are equal.

Dad is a businessman, you’re a businessman.
Why do you get to call him “Coles”? He has to call you “Mr. So-and-So.”

So these were kind of early problems to start seeing about power, and I recognized it.

And then throughout my first degree at university, I was fascinated by Karl Marx as so many young people.

Then I went to do teacher training.
Suddenly, Marx didn't quite seem to fit what I was experiencing.

So I started to read Michel Foucault.
And once I started to read Foucault, I thought, this is a far more nuanced approach to the idea of power, and it has far better application to circumstances like education and the workplace patterns as well.

And then, very often, sadly, I spent 25, perhaps 30 years of my career, just being a corporate drone.

So again, my dad's voice would say, “Just turn up at work, do what they tell you, keep your head down.”
And that was the way I lived my life until I did go across to work at the NHS Leadership Academy, as Garin mentioned.

And, suddenly, I was given space, not just to do interesting things but to think about them, which is so rare in corporate settings.

A space to think, a time to take the opportunity to think.
And I started to think critically, particularly about my work.

And I thought, oh, am I reinforcing structures of power by some of my own practice?

Which is what prompted me to write a book called Radical Organization Development.
And I remember writing a chunky chapter.

It was intensely critical.
And I thought, this is turning out as an 85,000-word resignation letter.

So I need to have a chunky back chapter. What do I want to do differently?
I didn’t want to say to people, “Here is a more practice.”

I wanted to say, “Here's what I intend to do.”

Chief amongst that was to start to talk about power.
For me, the job of OD is, can you call out power? Can you spot it and say its name?

Because if you can't do that, I don't think you're doing OD.

So that was where it took me to that place. And then from there, just understanding power became quite a critical piece.

But I would also say, I think I ended up with a slight focus on silence, partly because I have this condition.

It occurred to me, silence is often undervalued.
But it is very powerful.
And when used well, silence can also have a very positive role.

So that's kind of what took me to this point now.

That’s fascinating, Mark.
It’s incredible to hear the personal, professional, and academic journey that’s brought you to this focus.

The dynamic between power and silence is one that we often overlook.

In workplaces, we talk a lot about voice, but perhaps not as much about silence.

Can you say a little more about how you see the relationship between the two?
How do silence and voice interact in workplace settings?

Yes, absolutely.
They are often two sides of the same coin.

For me, power dynamics underpin both.

For example, when people speak up, there’s often a cost associated with it.
And sometimes, that cost is too high, so people choose silence instead.

But silence isn’t necessarily passive.
Silence can be a powerful form of resistance.
It can be a way of not engaging with something you don’t believe in.

At the same time, silence can also be imposed.

For instance, if you work in a culture where dissent isn’t welcome, people may be silenced, either explicitly or implicitly.

So, as OD practitioners, it’s important to ask: Who’s speaking? Who isn’t? And why?
What’s the power dynamic at play?

There’s also the question of how we, as OD practitioners or leaders, inadvertently reinforce silence.

We might think we’re encouraging people to speak up, but if the structures around us don’t support that, then our intentions don’t matter.

I find that silence, when examined, often reveals those deeper power structures.
And once you start to see them, it changes the way you work.

I think you’re right. Once you start noticing it, you can’t unsee it.

You mentioned earlier that part of your work now is helping others spot and name power.

Can you share some of the ways you do that?
What are the practical tools or approaches you use?

Yes, absolutely.
One of the key tools I use is storytelling.

Stories are incredibly powerful because they reveal so much about power dynamics.

For example, I’ll ask people to share a story about a time they felt powerful at work, and another about a time they felt powerless.

When people reflect on those stories, they often see patterns they hadn’t noticed before.

Another tool I use is something I call the “power map.”

I ask people to map out the relationships in their workplace — who influences whom, where decisions get made, who gets listened to, and who doesn’t.

It’s a very visual way of seeing where power sits.

And then there’s the importance of holding space for difficult conversations.

When you talk about power, you’re often touching on very sensitive areas.
So, creating a space where people feel safe to explore these topics is absolutely crucial.

That’s brilliant, Mark.
I love the idea of the power map — it makes something so abstract feel tangible.

And it reminds me of something you’ve written about, which is the idea that power is everywhere, not just at the top.

Could you say a little more about that?

Yes, that’s a key idea.
Traditional views of power often focus on hierarchy — who’s at the top, who reports to whom.

But power is much more complex than that.

For example, someone lower down the hierarchy might have a lot of influence because of their expertise or their relationships with others.

And power can also flow through systems and processes.

Think about a budget approval process — who controls the budget? Who decides what gets funded?
That’s a form of power, even if it’s less visible.

So, when we talk about power, it’s important to think beyond the obvious.
Look at the informal networks, the unwritten rules, the ways decisions actually get made.

And, of course, think about your own role in those systems.
Because none of us are neutral — we’re all part of the dynamic.

Mark, that’s such an important point.

I wonder, for our listeners who might be thinking about their own workplaces, what’s one thing they could do this week to start noticing power and voice in a new way?

That’s a great question.

One simple thing they can do is observe.

Spend some time in meetings or conversations, and just notice — who’s speaking? Who isn’t?

And then ask yourself why.

Is it about confidence? Is it about culture? Is it about the way the meeting is structured?

And notice your own behavior too.
Are you giving everyone a chance to speak? Or are you inadvertently reinforcing certain dynamics?

Just starting to notice is a powerful first step.

Thank you, Mark.
That’s such practical advice, and I think it will resonate with so many of our listeners.

It’s been an absolute pleasure having you with us today.

Before we wrap up, is there anything else you’d like to share?

Yes, just one thing.

When it comes to power and voice, don’t be afraid to ask difficult questions.

OD work isn’t about being comfortable — it’s about challenging the status quo.

So, keep asking those questions.

Thank you, Mark.

We’ll include links to your books and blog in the show notes for anyone who wants to explore further.

And to our listeners, thank you for joining us today.

We hope this conversation has sparked some new ideas for you.
See you next time on the Org Dev Podcast.