Leaders Think They’re Driving Change - So Why Isn’t It Landing with Rupert Brown

Why do so many transformation and change programmes fail to deliver in practice – even when the strategy looks solid?

In this episode of the OrgDev Podcast, we explore why organisational change breaks down during execution, and what leaders, HR and organisation development practitioners can do to make change actually stick. We look at the gap between strategy and reality – from leadership alignment and decision-making to the lived experience of change across teams.

If you’re leading transformation, working in HR or OD, or responsible for delivering change, this episode offers practical insight into how to execute change more effectively and sustainably.

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

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Transcript

(00:00) Hi and welcome to the org dev podcast. So most transformation or change programs look clear and logical on paper. There's a strategy, a plan, a timeline, and a slide deck that explains exactly how it will work. But for the people living through it, the reality often feels very different, messy, emotional, and far less predictable than the plan suggests.
(00:23) What can leaders, HR, and OD do to make change actually stick while supporting the people living through it? In this episode of the org dev podcast, we're joined by the brilliant Rbert Brown, author of Lost in Transformation. Rupert has spent much of his career inside large organizations, often sitting in the chief people officer seat or leading transformation efforts from the inside.
(00:43) Rubert is a chief people officer and change consultant who has spent his career inside some of the most complex transformations, mergers, acquisitions, and turnarounds. He's worked with companies like Virgin Media, O2, MK, Proctor and Gamble, and Gillette, as well as private equity based and family-owned businesses across consumer goods, shipping, software, education, and beyond.
(01:05) And after six international moves and 21 homes across Switzerland, Singapore, Denmark, and the UAE, Robert now runs his consulting practice from the UK, working with leadership teams who are serious about making change actually stick. And Danny and I have consumed his book. Uh those audio listeners, you'll see that we're flashing the book on the screen with many tabs because Danny's clearly got stuck right into it.
(01:25) This is Rubbert's first book and was published in 2025 and it's been recently nominated for the 2026 Business Book Awards. So, thank you so much for making time for us today, Rupert. We really appreciate it. >> Thank you so much. Pleasure to be here. We're really really excited to have you with us.
(01:55) So just to kick us off, just bring your work to life a little bit more. Just tell us about the work that you're doing currently. Yeah. So, I mean, like I suppose the introduction suggested, you know, an international HR leader uh who's got some of the battle scars to uh to explain some of the uh projects I've been involved in and and most recently sort of pivoting towards uh you know, a consulting and advisory portfolio.
(02:19) And the the book really was an opportunity just to sort of hit the pause button and say, where am I up to now and where would I like to uh uh be going forward? And what inspired you to write it and what are you hoping that kind of readers take away from it? >> I hope leaders feel seen. I I I think there's a lot of, you know, a lot of talk about how lonely it is to be uh a leader and to be involved in change, both uh when you're experiencing change personally, but also when you're trying to lead through ambiguity.
(02:45) And I wanted to really talk honestly about that experience and how perhaps we, you know, we make it we make it a more lonely experience than it need be just by how we typically typically respond. The inspiration actually was a moment where I was in a very complicated change program that had in theory the best players on the team to be able to advise it.
(03:08) And the wheels came off the bus quite spectacularly. And I remember just thinking to myself, there's a huge gap here between we all know better, you know, we've all we've all got the certifications, we come from the great companies, we do this stuff for a living. So, how have we gone from best practice to civil war? And I I was scratching my head and thinking there's something to be written here.
(03:27) In fact, the working title was actually uh the knowing doing gap. Yeah, it was called mind the gap. And I thought there was something between best practice and reality. And as I started to do a little bit more work and introspection, I call that the, you know, the inner work for myself and interview other people and do the reading, I actually thought that lost in transformation was a sort of better description.
(03:49) And in fact, lost lost is probably the word that I hear more and more often from from executives and people uh spinning out of corporate life. I I hope it's a it's an optimistic tone that I strike, but it's also pretty honest, pretty irreverent, slightly cheeky take on where are we when we talk about change? >> Yeah.
(04:10) So, you write about blind spots in the early part of the book. Um, yeah. Do you want to just elaborate on a couple of kind of those for us and and why they're so important? >> Yeah, exactly. Blind spots was an important concept uh for me and and again it goes to a little bit back to this thing of you might know better but you still end up doing what you what you do and in the opening chapter I use the Gillette Proter and Gamble acquisition as my sort of case study.
(04:33) It's it's a personal case study. uh I was working for the Gillette company as it was acquired by Proctor and Gamble and got to work on the the clean team planning the integration and stayed five years uh beyond sort of really sort of you know experienced what really happens versus what maybe we advocate for change. A couple of examples of blind spots.
(04:50) I mean the first one I talk about is the notification blind spot. So you know I heard about the uh merger going ahead as I was driving up the motorway at 60 mph to see my customer. I was actually a sales sales guy at the time. And I turn on the radio and I hear that the uh u Gillette company is being bought by Proctor and Gamble.
(05:10) And I was just I was like, "Oh my god, is that really how we find out about these things?" I mean, I couldn't quite believe it. I was like trying to navigate the traffic to pull over and go, "This is insane." Absolutely. You know, I I adored that company. I could see my career and where it was going. I was I was currently taking sort of a career risk with them at the time going from HR to sales uh on these broadening assignments and I couldn't a believe that it was happening and that was how I'd found out but also b it's like oh wow this is the
(05:37) opportunity of a lifetime. I have to get I have to get involved and that sounds like the most fascinating sort of corporate change project uh you know that that you'll ever be involved in. Um, another example of of a blind spot and I think it talks a lot to the work we do in the HR and OD space talks about I sort of call it like the inner voice uh blind spot.
(05:59) So it's the it's the avoidance of listening to the nagging doubts uh about what how you might be experiencing the change versus how you have to show up. And I remember vividly we were at this point three years post merger uh closure and I was standing up in the front of a town hall and I was advocating for you know essentially adoption of a new culture of the combine business and making sure that retained talent stayed in the business and I had all these slides in the slide in the slide deck that I had bridges change model I had Louis I had uh I I I changed
(06:30) curves coming out of my ears and the MD of the business was like Robert we haven't got time for this we we we don't want to kill the morale. We've got commercial momentum to maintain. Uh move on, move on, move on. And I remember thinking how ironic it was that we have some really strong tools and frameworks and experience, you know, in our in our toolbar.
(06:54) The reality in the business is very is very different. And that desire to sort of keep the momentum going at risk of lowering the mood in the room is often I think what sort of stops people actually uh going through change in a much more successful way. >> And have you got any advice for people who are listening who who are in that situation where they they know what needs to be done.
(07:12) They understand the human side of change but they're they're facing that hard-nosed it's just about momentum. We just need to keep going. Don't worry about the the kind of people element. What advice would you give to people who are stuck in that feel like they're they're stuck in the middle there? >> Yeah.
(07:26) and is stuck in the middle is a good is a good uh description of how it feels. So I've often say that there is something about you know how we how we go to market, how we go to business. Sometimes we we what we do is not necessarily what we say we're going to do in a good way. And I say that because the client might not want you to have a workshop where we all talk about our emotions.
(07:47) But I think the way that you can show up is being very mindful of the fact that a conversation needs to take place. And a lot of leaders are trying to implement changes. They're not fully on board with themselves. They feel nervous about their own position in that. Uh and I've wor with a lot of business owners who actually whilst it's a milestone event, it's also an end of an era that they feel very emotional about.
(08:09) If you can encourage people to be a little bit more honest about that conversation, I think you just get a much deeper, richer sort of engagement with people about what it means to change. and then we can sort of get get on with you know we can process it better we can talk about it in a better way but that that does require a change of pace and and I recognize that uh in that you know cut and thrust of business it's very operational it's very quick and you can sometimes be critiqued for trying to change that pace so sometimes
(08:38) you got to do keep this stuff up your sleeve I think and I describe it as how you go to market it's not necessarily what you sell but it's how you how you come across >> so yeah so so many questions I guess we we love a good definition on this and I guess the word transformation formation is one of those words with agile strategy.
(08:54) The meaning has has evolved over time. When we say an organization's actually transforming, what what is actually happening inside not specifically about the actual you know the transformation project, but what's often going on inside the organization. >> Yeah. So I funny enough I tried not to use the word transformation at all when I wrote the book.
(09:12) I I you know I suppose I'd come off the back of too many projects where we overegged the benefits. uh you know I'm thinking of one where we outsourced the transactional aspects of uh HR to an offshore offshore third party and that was you know typically that's built as HR transformation right and when you get there when you get it done you get maybe you get some of the costs out maybe you do change the operating model is it transformation or is it more of a carve up I think the business would say you carved up HR but if transformation has some sort of
(09:43) emphasis or things have improved uh then that might necessarily be the case. So I tried not to use the word transformation. I soon realized that actually you have to sort of meet people where they're at, meet the client where they are. If that's the language, then you have to use the language. So it's now it's on the front cover.
(09:59) So I suppose I failed a little bit in my initial attempt. But I I I my my reverence in the tone comes a little bit from the sense that you know I look at change uh in the broader sense of all the things that happening for the individual and the stuff at work. transformation then for me is essentially there's change plus+ right it's change that's been emphasized to have a bigger and more monumental impact on the business often now with a digital component to that but I'm trying to take it back to I suppose first principles of
(10:31) leadership and psychology and change management in the sense that doesn't really matter what you call it is the you know the impacts on people are are the same and need to be understood uh in the same way and >> and I think often there's such a big between you know what's described in the leadership presentations about what the change will actually be like to actual the reality of it what's experienced by people as well.
(10:53) >> Yeah. And it's not that it's not helpful is it really when I think you describe it in a certain way. Um you know it's a little bit like when you rewrite job descriptions and you do it in a in a way to get past trade unions actually the conversation to be had is much more fundamental of how do I relate to this? What does need to be different? how can I be supported in in doing that and having the proper conversation and in some jurisdictions actually I think my international career has helped here you see that we approach it in a certain way
(11:20) in the UK because of the employment law uh uh structure and I think it makes it makes the good conversation even harder to have because you know you're worried about triggering consultation so you keep everything secret you keep everything sort of superficial and legal ease and you don't have the proper conversations that people need >> and and you mentioned earlier like the sort of the drive of of of commercial need and commercial and we can't be naive like you know we do have to sometimes move things along and deals
(11:46) have a certain window to get happen but but what happens to decision making when transformation is compressed into tight deadlines >> yeah I so this this this this concept of timing of chyros is is what I I describe in the book really fascinated me because as you say you create these artificial bookends in your project plants some sometimes there's such commercial value associated with it.
(12:12) So in the PNG example, I talk about the Swiss tax year uh of January the 1st and it's almost like the entire you know financial uh fundamentals of the deal hinged on this this date being being hit. So you can understand that that is just going to happen. You've just got to make that happen. Then there's so many other deadlines that we in in put into our own project plans that are totally arbitrary.
(12:33) Uh and sometimes you do that to force action. I mean if you do if you're playing the sort of the PMO role, you're trying to cheat people along. you're trying to get on people's priority lists. So deadlines can serve a purpose, but they can also do the exact opposite, which is they, you know, sort of take the oxygen out of the conversation.
(12:50) And I talked earlier about trying to change the pace and the the the deadline makes that almost impossible uh if it's totally arbitrary. So I guess I was asking the question and I've asked this question to a number of sort of change consultants is you know to what extent are your deadlines hindering effective sort of change adoption ultimately uh and you're just doing it either because you've got to you got to you've got to get out in x number of days or it just looks neat and tidy on the chart to be finished by you know the end of the quarter the end of
(13:18) the calendar month >> and I guess the risk is always that you leave people behind don't you? And I think one of the things that sort of stood out from the book is that, you know, we we have often we have such a strong sense of identity with the organization that we're with or the brand that we're with, you know, sometimes, you know, in any merger there's always a dominant party where we're going into, you know, potentially becoming members of that and things need to breathe.
(13:40) And you you sort of shared a story where even after quite a period of time, you still find yourself to be a Jet Empire even though you were PNG. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's that's absolutely right. So that was uh it it was an odd moment where the penny dropped for me that actually the the sort the the cognitive dissonance in my head was was becoming was reaching fever pitch and I had to do something about it.
(14:01) And I tell the story that we're actually at one of these corporate fund runs in Singapore, one of those 5k uh runs that everybody goes to do, which I I love doing by the way, big runner, you know, enjoy doing that stuff. But this year the t-shirts hadn't arrived. So, we all had to go down and get on the bus and our normal sort of running gear.
(14:18) And someone said, "Which uh how do we know which company we work for if we haven't all got matching matching vests?" So, somebody had the bright idea of, "Well, why do we write our company name on our shoulders with this black Sharpie that somebody pulled out?" And everybody's writing PG on their on their shoulders uh for Proter and Gamble.
(14:34) And obviously, I was acquired by them from the Gillette company. So, the the the pen comes to me. This is three years postacquisition. and I go up to write PG on my on my arm and I can't do it. I I and it's like it's the first time I have um a physical reaction. It's kind of like I can advocate for change adoption until I'm blue in the face.
(14:54) I've been been doing that in my role as the HR leader of the business, but when it came for me to actually brand myself with the name of the company I identify with, I couldn't do it. So, I write a G for Gillette and pass the pen on. And it was it was the strangest place to have the epiphany in the sense that you're you know surrounded by a load of runners waiting to get on a bus and it dawns on you I can't continue. I I I I can't do it.
(15:21) It's like um I miss my I I miss my old company too much. And then I realized well why aren't we having this convers well a number of things. Why aren't we having this conversation? And why is respecting your uh legacy respecting your past such a problem? you know, why why can't I be both those things? Why can't I be a proud PNG employee and a proud Gillette uh Heritage employee and see the benefits of both and have a happy future? And unfortunately, you know what it's like? Uh it's almost like the success is is is adoption and you
(15:53) hear the stories where people introduce themselves as the company that they were in acquired from 20 years ago and that story is told as a failure of cultural assimilation or somebody's really not on the bus and I I I just thought huh that's actually happening to me that's just happened to me.
(16:12) So yeah, so I realized that this probably wasn't the place for me and it because it felt so physical for the first time. It went from being sort of cognitive dissonance to something I could not ignore and had to do something about it. >> Just on that the language we use as well, isn't it? Because often it'll be an acquisition that's dressed up as a merger and the language we use doesn't enable people to really kind of lean into the reality of what's what's happening.
(16:34) >> It's a leading question, isn't it? So it's like Yeah. Yeah. To look like to look successful, you have to say it a certain way. And in fact, that that case was dressed up as a merger for the stock market and quickly became an acquisition. And I don't think it was necessarily done. I think that was that was purely sort of commercial language talking.
(16:53) But it does send a signal, doesn't it, to the employees about, well, how am I supposed to be showing up to what's the rules of the game? How do how do I how do I do well in this game? What are the rules? I wonder if we couldn't be an awful lot smarter and a bit more accommodating when we do that in the future. you've added something really useful into the discussion about this whole field because you bring there's real openness and honesty to it as well and I think that's going to move the conversation because you kind of have a foot in different worlds that of
(17:16) you know a senior HR leader but also a senior leader within the business as well and one of the things you talked about is you know you're the senior leader you're having your doubts because there's so much about this process which is quite performative isn't it which is I'm doing the town hall and I think you talk about the fact that what do you do when you're you know you're almost obl obligated to be relentlessly positive when internally you're having your own dilemma and you know what's the moral thing to do here.
(17:42) >> Yeah. And I I you know some of the if I think of some of the leaders that I've sort of respected the most are the ones who can handle they can communicate that complexity in a way that that says that they are they are on board but they also have that you know they're finding it difficult.
(17:59) They're carrying a lot of that load with them as well. Um, and I think it's important that leaders are able to do that. And because I guess the danger is is that the audience is is thinking it anyway, right? So if we say where where does trust go to in all of these scenarios, you might get off the stage as the leader thinking you're stuck to the talking points perfectly, but the audience are talking to the head hunters and just want to get out and they just don't believe a thing you said.
(18:25) And we've we've been both, right? We've been in the audience and we've been on the stage. And I think we just we need to be honest about it. And it's interesting because I know that you're close with John James Longwell, a previous guest on our show, brilliant and a real expert on top of being a senior ID practitioner in Google. He's a transaction analysis expert as well.
(18:41) And there is something around often treating children like treating our employees like children in this process that they can't handle the truth and we must protect them from it or other things will happen. Like in reflection now, you sort of looked at that. How do you feel about the the optimal way to to engage with employees knowing that they do actually know what's going on? >> I mean, I thank James for helping me sort of find a way to include TA in in the book because I think there's there's a lot of benefits to, as you say,
(19:08) treating people like adults. It go it go it plays out in multiple ways. I think people can handle and process the truth much better than they can something that's superficial and fabricated and doesn't make sense. And that's what happens when you tell, you know, you give them a sort of a line that sounds better than it really is.
(19:25) People like, well, now I really don't understand it. I really can't process it because it's it's it just sounds really odd. Whereas, actually, I think people can handle the truth an awful lot better. So, here's the thing, right? You could you might ask me, so since writing the book, how has your practice changed? And one thing I noticed quite quickly was how how easy it is to fall back into old habits.
(19:46) And you know, the currency of change is the PowerPoint slide. And we typically write those in isolation uh from the project room or from the dungeon, the basement, wherever it is that you're you're stationed. And it's, you know, I'm advocating for something that's a little bit more uh intentional and inclusive and uh uh you know, open open to others, open to interrogation.
(20:08) It takes a you got a lot of intentionality to do that. We're so hardwired to go back to the way it's always done. uh and I can I can see that in myself. So, one of the benefits I think of writing the book is it opens your eyes. One of the challenges is trying to remain true and honest now to how you've just said that you should you should move forward.
(20:27) So, I I guess I advocate from a practitioner's perspective. I know what it's like. I know it's not easy. I'm not pretending that this is straightforward and that we should just involve everybody in organization design or something. Uh it it doesn't work. But there is a better way than what we're doing at the moment. Uh behind closed doors with the usual suspects cooking up the same problems.
(20:45) >> Yeah. And that kind of builds up on a point that you were saying you described that transformation teams can sometimes be an in-roup and there's an out group and at the beginning you said about civil war which is a really strong term isn't it? So how does that kind of sort of manifest itself and how does it become what it becomes and what can be done to prevent that transformation teams being distant from the actual organization itself? You know, and if you look at the typical makeup of the different players involved in some of
(21:10) these change programs, we all have different uh you know, different different contract types, different backgrounds, different approaches. Many people in that sort of transformation space are not really joining the company. They're joining the project. You know, they're there for the gig. They want to get in, get out, get on, get paid.
(21:27) And that's sort of the mindset. It's quite a mercenary sort of transactional mindset. But a lot of them also happen to be from the biggest names and be the smartest people in the room uh at the same time. And the tr it's almost like the transformation people can agree with one another that the client is is a little bit off the pace uh and that can quickly turn into sort of this arrogant swagger uh that just that just really breeds problems.
(21:51) There's there's a real dilemma here, isn't there? is how do you actually bring the right people in in a way that uh allows people to work well together without getting up everyone's nose because those that that resistance to you I mean it doesn't feel like or is not described as resistance. There's lots of things that the current momentum is creating inertia for what it is that you're trying to do and you won't get close to that if you just add more and more tension to the issue.
(22:18) So, you know, I describe it as, you know, the brilliant surgeons putting the sick patient under the knife because that's the stance I think a lot of project transformation teams adopt uh especially if they're hired for a certain technology or a certain methodology or an approach and you know they want to get in and get out.
(22:34) So, there's a lot of sort of humility required. A lot of that is the leadership of how that group uh is is you know how it's set up just sort of the tone and the vibe of the of the work and how you respect also what's gone before. So I get again I I blessed that I've worked for a real range of businesses different industries countries own ownership uh structures and often what I found is you see some of the most successful businesses run in a quite unorthodox way and that that tells you something doesn't it that perhaps the the best practice is
(23:06) actually not so best in all situations after all and I think it really opens your mind to say huh I have one view I have one approach about how change should be done. There's many many ways to run a business successfully and I think actually you need a bit of that that that that sort of humility to have seen uh different ways of operating.
(23:25) >> I think something about humility and there's something about just being open to things being really messy. Being open to the fact that it's it's not straightforward. It's quite seductive, isn't it? Just to think things are straightforward and we can just apply best practice and go for it. It's going to work here.
(23:38) And we just make our lives more complicated, I guess, by opening up to the fact that that's not not likely to be successful. It's also quite easy, I think, to fall into the trap of thinking almost like I don't really know how to describe it, but the idea that you set strategy, you set objectives, you work towards them, and that's the only sort of way of of achieving great things.
(23:57) Sort of a very much a linear a linear approach and deliberate planned approach. Whereas actually when you speak to and work with a lot of uh entrepreneurs, it's much more opportunistic and gut feel. In truth, it's probably a quality we don't have and that's why we don't understand it. And they as as one entrepreneur said as what's the strategy? The strategy is buy low, sell high, don't mess it up.
(24:21) That's the strategy. It's like okay, I needed more. I need more. I still need more. But that's the that's the entrepreneurs playbook. Uh and it's like almost it's actually that serves some people incredibly well. That's very inspiring. >> I was going to say I was just thinking if there's somebody listening who's in the middle of a transformation right now, what should they be looking out for? What signs might they see that they're they're lost? Um, and need to kind of take another look before they get to the end of it and realizes
(24:46) actually with hindsight this wasn't brilliant. What would they see? What might they see? >> That's a really good question. So, what might they see? So, I I think you know because by my stance is that there's a lot going on for the individual um over and above what's happening inside the business.
(25:04) So you might you might say at sort of basic level if things are feeling difficult, slow, stressful, emotional that you're lost. Not necessarily at all. Actually, that might be just an indication that you're, you know, you're living life and you're experiencing it uh in in in in full color. I I think that there's a real need to sort of wake up and and and appreciate that it's not all plain sailing.
(25:29) Um, and that's a little bit my, you know, my my call to action on the emotional piece is to say, can we actually have the conversation that it it doesn't always go brilliantly. People don't always feel great for for for all the human reasons about, you know, just ju just just being alive today. Um, so we need to have that conversation in parallel with the fact that some of the stuff we're trying to do at work is difficult, too.
(25:48) Uh, and we're not making it any easier when we we hide behind uh, you know, the way the ways that we work today. So, I I've heard people who've read the book have said, I feel like this is a book that I will dip back into as I sense that things are going, you know, off in different directions in the future.
(26:05) But it's it's a dip back into because it really depends, you know, and I I think I I I always think that the book for me was very much a blow everything up and understand what are the different dimensions. So, I haven't yet I haven't yet started to converge. It was very much a divergent approach. Uh and I sort of when I when when I when I finished the book, I realized I've covered a I've covered almost far too much ground that I know nothing about.
(26:28) Uh and that tells me quite a lot about the nature of change. >> Feels feels there may be a sequel for this, doesn't there? >> Well, maybe maybe just a filtering out of okay, there's some there's some areas there you just, you know, you're not going to be able to navigate. But um it's it's very much it's it feels like it's it's it's all the things that I'm interested in almost like for the next decade that I need to go and explore.
(26:50) Uh and the book is very much just this just a signpost to all those different areas. One area really wanted to really explore is a lot of the audience that are listening to this are going to be in and around the HR team >> and HR has so much rich insight into the organization. Often they're picking up the weak signals first >> that maybe this isn't going to plan or maybe you know people haven't had a space to process emotion or maybe they're feeling skeptical or maybe there's the ghost of changes past are just starting to emerge as well. So I
(27:20) guess that you know how can HR position itself in relation to the change to sort of create the most possible benefit as well? Should it be in the change or should it be on the outskirts like where where could it be or is it is it depends. >> Yeah. So one thing that came to mind as you were talking there was also just how many people how many actors are sort of involved in in large organizations you know so you might have you might have a separate transformation unit you might have change management internal coms
(27:49) consultancy strategy HR OD whoever it might be and I think a lot of that sort of that that creates its own tension doesn't it of like who's in my space who's owning this and we're familiar with the tension between in HR between the generalist and the specialists so the you know the business partners are protective of the relationship with the business leaders, the OD guys think they've got the tools and the expertise to help and often they're having to talk through intermediaries to make it all happen. And I that just adds that that
(28:14) just adds layers and layers of complexity to it all. I always advocate for a sort of like an experience first approach. It's like you need to be near it and in it to have any effect. Uh I don't I don't think this this really is sort of an ivory tower head office kind of intervention. You know, I guess my career advice to anybody is always get get in the in the in the mix.
(28:35) Follow your nose for change. If something's going on, get involved and don't be so precious which role you're playing in it because often it's your intuition and your insight just as being a people person. Perhaps it's the perhaps having the HR label gives you the confidence to be able to say the the things that are difficult for others to say and you know encourage you to to do that.
(28:54) I I remember an a CEO once told me said, "Rupbert, you're the only person around the table who can say this stuff because everybody else is protecting their their agenda, you know, their commercial agenda. If they're 10% off target, they're probably not feeling like now is the time to criticize the way the boss showed up at the last town hall.
(29:11) " But it's almost like your agenda is all about how people are feeling the change adoption. How does this really sound? Does the strategy make sense? Playing stuff back. It's almost like if you don't use that license, nobody else can. everybody else is in in a weaker position than you are uh to speak on behalf of people.
(29:29) So I think that's that's super powerful. That's that's a real a real obligation opportunity. >> And how does it feel to be that person that's maybe challenging the the narrative by saying those things? How how does it feel in that moment? And and again, what can you do to stack the odds that it will be received well? >> Yeah, it's it's difficult.
(29:46) It's difficult. I think the often it's just how you say it and where when you say it and if you're saying it for the interests of the betterment of the organization and the program or or however it might might be phrased then that that is the way to do it. I I learned a lot about this actually from my time at PNG.
(30:04) So although maybe I use that as a case study of difficult M&A I also learned an awful lot about how to h how to how to lead and how to do HR well. And we had one of the roles that HR played in the organization was that they would be the if you like the orchestrator of strategy design and communication of cascade. And uh our role was always to be the one that said do I really understand what you're saying? It's like you can talk about your brand, your product, your category, your technology, blah blah blah, but I as the HR person, I have to sort of put
(30:36) the fresh ears on and say as the consumer, as the employee who's hearing this for the very first time, does it make any sense? And I think that's that that's a really that's a gift actually you give to your team and you adopt that because you're not being critical from the sense of you guys don't know what you're talking about.
(30:53) you you you you're bringing sort of the customer into the room to say actually the way I'm hearing this sounds confused or sounds a bit like this but actually I think we mean this so can we simplify the messaging when you put your when you position yourself like that I think actually you're in a very powerful way to affect change without sort of uh you know upsetting anyone in the process >> one of your chapters is called something like never waste a crisis which >> yeah is really interesting and you know I think we work with a lot of
(31:18) organizations who in crisis kind of rise to the occasion and everybody's really focused on kind of the direction. Is there a way to replicate that without actually having the crisis in the first place? >> Yeah, that's an interesting one. We just pretend we just pretend to have like a a fake cyber attack for 24 hours and see see what we can get out of it.
(31:40) So, so what's interesting? So, it it was the cyber attack I use as the example. It was the uh not Pettia attack on on many businesses, but AP Mully got caught up in it. uh some time ago and there's something interesting happens in a crisis which is the singularity of focus when when it's when it's sort of like at the existential level for an organization there is nothing else to talk about uh that and that that's that's incredible that's incredible focus and I was very blessed that actually the leader who was involved in
(32:11) the restoration of the uh you know not just the IT function but essentially the whole organization during that period uh was was would talk to me about how he approached it. And it, believe it or not, it wasn't his first sort of full-on cyber attack recovery role, which is also where you realize, wow, there's something about getting people on the bus who know and have got the the battle scars for doing this.
(32:33) And his approach was, I mean, it's vaguely looks like a team of teams kind of model that you might see in a normal technology agile sort of structure, but his point was that everybody had a very clear understanding of what their role was within a sort of a very tight time frame. uh and this was a 24/7 uh operating model.
(32:53) The teams were meeting every four hours to update one another to be able to get the information back to the to the executive team to make the decisions. Frightening complexity, but I guess it's almost almost feels like you've borrowed something from the military in terms of how it was done. And and I was there at the time and it's hard to describe these things, isn't it, with that and convey the right emotion because that could sound like a very militaristic in the in a negative way of of it not feeling great.
(33:19) The interesting thing was that the people who were involved, whilst yes, there's definitely feelings of burnout because you're working way faster than you should do, people felt incredibly uh motivated to be involved, to be heard, to be trusted. And a lot of the people there say that was that's their career highlight. So, working that way for that bleeder during that crisis is their career highlight, which I find amazing.
(33:41) You know, it's almost like it spoke to a few of them and it's something about purpose and and really being I think the quote was I get to come to work and do the impossible every day and but you can't maintain that you know over forever but for for a period of time that was the way of doing it and I als you know I'd also add that I just think as a leader he was somebody who was really able to step up and step in and was the sort of guy that you did want to work with.
(34:07) It was very transparent and enabling and was not just a leadership style for crisis. It was actually a leadership style for um you know for many occasions. >> Yeah. I was Yeah. Again there's a chapter isn't there where you talk about you know should you have a chief transformation officer? Should you kind of separate that transformation from the the kind of rest of the business? Just wonder what your thoughts are on that.
(34:27) Um >> yeah so so a lot of people struggled with this when I interviewed them. They were a little bit like well isn't that the CEO's job? you know this this whole who do you empower to drive the change. Um and as I started talking to other people I said you need to understand that the the stresses and the um the priorities of the CEO often are to drive enormous amount of change internally but also to keep other stakeholders sweet and informed and often the delegation is necessary and of sometimes actually there is there's different playbook
(34:56) sometimes actually the make things happen quick is essentially by smashing them together and hence I was sort of a bit curious really the evolution of this role this function uh and and how it all works. I mean, I think if you did a straw poll, most people would rather work for a CEO who was personally involved uh and engaged and sort of felt like they were close to the action and it was much more authentic.
(35:19) But in the the size of some of our organizations, that's that's just not feasible or realistic either. And you're seeing many many sort of CXOs find themselves or think of themselves in that role of the one that actually is holding the most tension. You know, think of it like the chief commercial officer, which a few years ago was the amalgam of sales and marketing, but also trying to bring the customer lens in.
(35:42) You know, that might have been your axis for change. Then then perhaps then it's the it's the technology officer or the the data officer. >> Probably people who have AI in their job title now think that's that's them. >> They're the person in the chair who is driving the most change. But you see it called different things.
(36:01) Is it product? Is it something else? And I I'm curious because you also see organizations where there's two, three, four such axes of change and players that maybe think they're the ones that's driving all of this. And if you go back to sometimes I go back to some of the principles of organization design and where does the power reside in the organization, you know, my my I I grew up in consumer goods.
(36:27) So for me that where the P&L sits is the power basis. Where the resources sit is the power basis. uh slightly different I think in technology but in in big organizations that that that seems to work. So you have these really awkward organizations got massive sort of like centers of financial decision-m and people density and then all these knowledge centers that have this mandate for change and transformation and somebody might be trying to knit that together.
(36:53) They might be in the strategy role or some sort of Uber PMO. That might even be the that might even be the management consultancy actually that's doing the knitting together. Uh so I I think this is this is not getting any simpler. This is you know this is we're just adding more and more different interesting ways to change organizations.
(37:10) Yeah, I guess we're in the product and AI space right now. But ask me that question again in three years time there'll be another there'll be another player. And I guess you know often if you look at the configuration of of senior teams it's a reflection of what is fashionable at the time isn't it? So >> I'm not a proper senior team unless we've got a chief transformation officer on board.
(37:29) Uh I guess that balance between okay well what is the market saying and what do we need to do and also what do we actually genuinely need as well because again that that seems can easily get quite bloated can't it? >> Yeah exactly. So yeah, so you see exactly you see things going up and down in sort of uh share price I suppose in terms of how how strategically important they are.
(37:48) There's also the big question of what's the profile of the individual. Is it better to have somebody who knows knows the industry, knows the business, knows the people, has trust can sort of like get change going that way or do you want somebody who is the pure outsider who can see a different way forward? I find it there's no one answer.
(38:03) It all depends on context, isn't it? I I I think it's so interesting how that decision alone probably casts the longest shadow of what happens next. H and it often often actually your choice is your hands are tied behind your back. It's either it's either A or it's B. Maybe neither A nor B are the are the right options, but uh off you go.
(38:25) So I think you know if you're if you're in the room at the point where that decision is being taken, that's a real slowdown moment that that that is a it's not obvious. is we need to think through what the pros and cons are. >> Hi, we're just pausing this interview for a moment. Have you ever finished an episode of the org dev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points? Us two, so we made one.
(38:49) It's called from pod to practice and each week on our newsletter will share a two-page summary of the latest org dev episode, and it includes key takeaways, a reflection prompt, and one small action you can try. And it's all in a digital format with space at the end to add your own notes and reflections. And it's designed to help you take the learning from the podcast into your day-to-day work.
(39:08) So to get your copy, just sign up to our next step to better newsletter. The links in the show notes or you can visit our website at www.distinction.live to get the latest from pod to practice in your inbox. And let us know what you think. We'd love to get your feedback. Yes. Slightly changing tech now. What parts of your work do you enjoy the most? What do you find the most fulfilling? Yeah.
(39:28) So I I enjoy I enjoy sort of making sure that there is that the work feels good. There's this human element to it, a humanistic dimension to it and getting results. I always sort of went into the HR space as a you know so if I go back to the beginning you know I did I studied psychology at university but really I wanted to study business and it was more just because I'm the I'm the youngest of three boys.
(39:52) So my eldest brother did marketing, middle brother did finance, my dad was an economics major and I had to rebel so I had to do psychology. So that that's sort of how I ended up in HR. I was a little bit, you know, always interested in the business and my my angle was going to be through through people. So I'm I'm very interested in sort of getting things done, getting impact, but doing it well, doing it through people and creating a place that that uh people enjoy being.
(40:18) One of the big uh aars for me in writing the book was this this philosophy piece about I it versus I thou. Um and it's the idea are you there for the transaction? Are you there for sort of the relationship and the people? And I know my bias, my preference and I can't I can't change it. It's hardwired in me.
(40:35) I'm a people person. I'm I I'm thou. And that leads me to what's hard. Um you know, I'm drawn to change. Uh can't stop it. I can't help it. But each one takes a chunk out of me. each each program hurts in its own way. And that's because I'm building relationships and I'm putting myself in there because that's how I that's how I do it.
(40:57) That's how I work. Um, so I've been reflecting very much on why does it feel so hard even when you're doing this stuff well? Uh, because there's there's a price, you know, you're you're working hard, you working differently, there's an impact on individuals, not everybody's happy with the work, the the impact and the implication. Change is necessary.
(41:17) Um, I'm, you know, I'm not here to throw throw rotten tomatoes at leaders or at change. I I'm progressive and I want to move forward and it hurts. And and I think the price of doing it well is that it it hurts. So you say, what you know, what do I I struggle with? I struggle with that realization that I'm drawn to uh I'm drawn to some work that's difficult >> and you and you've worked in lots of international contexts.
(41:39) The audience, I think we've got like 112 countries or so. and and your sort of living breathing embodiment of the ability to sort of work between cultures. So, how's it shaped your practice and what can others learn from it? You feel? >> Yeah, that's um that's a nice question. So, I always wanted to have an international career.
(41:54) It's something that was very drilled into me very early on. My mom's Swedish, my grandmother's Italian, and whilst I grew up in the north of England, you know, lived in the same in the same house all of my life, I had this urge to get out there and see the world. uh and I was fortunate to do 15 years in six countries and and get a taste for that.
(42:12) And when I was looking back at the UK, what I was very aware of was how our experience uh especially in the HR field in the UK is very is is very sort of heavily influenced by the employee relations, employment law union sort of framework that we have. And I think that can really sort of styy your thinking as a practitioner.
(42:33) uh and often the sort of the seat at the table that you adopt as as a result of that during change. You know, they come to you to get the thing past the union uh because there's redundancies. Uh you know, that that that's a real shame that that's the contributing factor when there's so much more upstream and downstream that can be done.
(42:52) When you work in other jurisdictions, even places where there is no employment law and actually you can do whatever you want, it really opens the conversation to well, what will we do then? What shall we do? How shall we do it? what role do values play and I remember this vividly actually I was in the Middle East when COVID uh hit and uh many organizations took the opportunity to slash salaries of people because they could and there's a real values conversation at the board level which is just because you can doesn't mean you should and this was this was a lovely
(43:20) com you would never have this conversation in the UK you didn't need to you couldn't uh you might have the the fiery hire conversation in the UK but uh somewhere else you're having a very different conversation that's a much more sort of values-based about leadership and about strategy and about where you go forward.
(43:36) We we we were discussed with the board that said this is you know I was working in the education sector where people were predominantly expats and the idea of if people don't feel trust in their employer and the place that they're living then it jeopardizes the entire business model. So right now is the time to not do anything silly like that.
(43:55) Uh and in fact to show ultimate sort of flexibility and uh you know fa faith in the employee base and I and I remember thinking this is a conversation and an experience I'm benefiting from because I've got an international background. >> I guess what it does is it allows the organization to sort of develop its own moral code rather than having one imposed on it as well.
(44:15) Yeah, that's really interesting. Um on the flip side, what what challenges do you encounter and how do you navigate them? >> So so I mean the challenges so the trends that I'm observing actually and often where I I come in now in this sort of consultancy role or interim role is where the client has perhaps an opportunity or a plan but is running out of bandwidth, running out of courage, uh running out of uh the skills to be able to make something happen.
(44:43) And what's quite interesting when you step out of the run and you you're working more on the um the change side is you realize just how little bandwidth clients have um for doing the you know the important stuff and that just seems to be getting harder and harder. Maybe I've been in more operational businesses the last few years but it feels like there's more uh energy taken up on operational requirements uh and short-term thinking than ever before.
(45:09) So a and at the same time there are more change in transformation programs and agendas at play as well. So there's almost like this real uh an assault on people's bandwidth and attention for being able to get stuff done and do decent quality thinking uh on the things that matter. And I've seen many of times where actually almost think that the the role of the chief people officer if we take just one is actually to needs to be split in half where someone's thinking forward someone's thinking today and backwards. uh because there's just
(45:39) there's just too much at play and the roles have become an awful lot broader uh I suppose as the people agenda has as you know has matured. >> It's really interesting isn't it because I think you know um and Danny and I we've got deep sympathy and empathy for the modern manager because the demands are are so excessive aren't they? And I think um I remember you sort of saying somewhere that you know a lot of the managers aren't necessarily equipped to lead change for example.
(46:01) They're still working off their MBA models from early 2000s. So they'll be quoting burning platforms and John Cotter and whatnot. Whereas really maybe they're not the tools for modern contemporary organizations as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's that's exactly what I discovered. So when I asked people what their theory of change was that was the only thing I got back.
(46:20) I got birding platform and quick win. Wow. This is interesting. So everything you know about change you learned at the airport. It's been like uh so there's a real opportunity, isn't there? Because the irony is you've experienced so much. You haven't sort of like you haven't fed that that in uh to your to to to your inquiry either.
(46:40) Um and a lot of managers are just not sort of given the autonomy to actually make any decisions whatsoever. Um so you know we're it's very it's a difficult spot for them to be in whether that's because of just how you treat them on a daily basis or or the role that they play during uh decision- making.
(46:55) So yeah I I also have an awful lot of empathy for them. In the chapter on timing on chyros that's very much the if you like the the business case for getting the timing right is because if you don't that you haven't got the buy in and the capacity of the organization to get this stuff done.
(47:12) So if you're wanting to move at your speed, then it might mean that you're having to do all the resource and all the heavy lift yourself. Um, which does not make any sense at all. >> Yeah. And it goes back to what you said earlier, which is meeting people where they are. You know, in HR and OD, all we do is think about this day in day out.
(47:25) It's probably our first thought and our last thought in our day, isn't it? Where, you know, we have to remember that managers, they've got so much more. And for often many of them, the people thing doesn't come naturally for them as well, does it? >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That's my So my you talk about empathy for the manager.
(47:40) Uh I think in my book I have empathy for the change manager because there's so much good intention sort of you know um in those slide decks that never get read by the right people and it's been it's partly because you know they just don't have the attention. They don't really want to have the conversation.
(47:55) So you're sort of left you're left as the change manager building and building and building out the slide deck with the proposals that will not see the light of day. And I I think it's a real a real shame because that's where the nuggets of insight are. That's that's where actually the per person who's much closer to the business can can really help you out.
(48:14) And and it's very powerful, you know, when you interview leaders and they they tell you things like, you know, I'm the I'm the executive sponsor for a project I know nothing about. I do not care about and I've never been to that place. Uh why am I the executive sponsor? They'll tell me as the third party. If they told you that internally, you might do something about it. But I bet you don't.
(48:33) I bet that I bet that is playing out time and time again. And Danny and I do talk about the sponsorship role quite a lot. It's probably one of the most underarticulated, least trained roles, but has the biggest impact as well. What's your experience of sort of working with sponsors and how can we work better with sponsors? >> That's that's that's wonderful point because a lot of this role definition piece, it's a little bit like when you define mentoring and coaching, uh all of a sudden it becomes much clearer, doesn't it, about what what what you're
(48:59) supposed to do. There's the this happens an awful lot, you know, where especially as you climb the ladder, you start assuming these responsibilities that nobody has defined for you. It's a bit like trying to find the terms of reference for a board. You know that they might exist because you're laughing, you know, it's like they might exist from a governance perspective and maybe the company secretary has got it.
(49:21) You but nobody on the board has any clue what the terms of reference are. >> We always ask for it and eventually it turns up. and you can see the last time it was opened. >> Yeah, exactly. It might show up when somebody's exceeded a spending threshold. So, you you were not supposed to sign off that uh that deal after all.
(49:40) There's something really important there, I think, about defining these roles as you go through them and as people meet them. Uh and that executive sponsorship role is is is a cracking point there, Gary. I don't think I've seen any organization actually stop and do that. >> So, it's a fairly big question, but what are some of the biggest lessons you've learned throughout your career that you kind of take forward with you in the work you do now? That is a big question Danny. Um some of the biggest lessons.
(50:01) So I I I think actually the you know the book was an attempt to sort of answer that question for myself and I was sort of trying to answer the question also what sort of leader do I want to be and what's informed that that opinion and I talk a lot about character uh in the book because I think that's the sort of the clue a little bit as to how you want to show up.
(50:28) It's very it's not often we spend much time thinking about who's informed and who's shaped that character. But I think that that that is you know a little bit my point before that says I know that I'm attracted to change but I also know that it takes a chunk out of me that comes back to the fact that I want to build relationships and have an impact on people at a personal level.
(50:48) Um so when I'm doing complicated stuff in large organizations that's going to have a multiplier effect. And I think I I think that that's that's been a massive learning for me in a nice in a sort of comforting way as well that says, "Yeah, it's if if that's the approach, then it's supposed to be difficult." So don't you know, it's not it's not you're not failing.
(51:04) You're not you're not necessarily struggling. It's just this this stuff is pretty hard. Um and then I also realized that you only do the learning. In fact, I I'd love to ask you guys what the definition of learning is because I I I'm still unclear what it means to learn. So I might I might have taken some time to reflect but I might also make the same mistake tomorrow.
(51:28) So I feel like a superficial level I I'm learning but I'm still you know I'm trying to implement those learnings as I go and I don't think professional development gets anywhere near the sort of serious attention it deserves. And I I think my approach to personal development is much different now. So as I as I ask myself the question I'm I still love this profession.
(51:52) I still love people centric change in organizations. Uh but now as I want to sort of do things in a more in in you know informed way I also have to invest an awful lot in my own development to do that better. Uh which of course means slowing down a little bit right and and doing things differently.
(52:10) So, I didn't I didn't know that before, you know. I think I thought it was a race to the top and maybe pick up some certificates and get the company to put you through business school and that and that was development. And that kind of sort of seamlessly leads on to the next question is like what do you actually do to keep your learning sharp? Um I bumped into you a mirror mirror session a few months ago.
(52:29) Uh so I definitely know you are investing in it. So what kind of habits and practices do you have? >> Yeah, so I so I I've definitely become a bit of a CPD nerd. And you know I take that really seriously which I think is kind of funny because you know in a recent project I was implementing performance management and advocating for the usual sort of personal development and I remember getting the eye rolls from some people in the in in the business about this and it's like I just I I just had to stop.
(52:53) I don't the thing I'm most passionate about is is the CPD aspects to this. And if I just look at, you know, if I take your podcast as an example, uh, and some of the people that have been through it that have informed my thinking. So there's obviously some people that are in the book. So Steve Hurst, James Longwell are in the book.
(53:13) Jervis Bush is in is in the book and have been on your pod. And then there's so many other people that have sort of, you know, they're on my list of things that I need to learn about. So if I could keep up with Dave Snowden, I'd be pretty happy. Uh, and I'm glad that you've had had a couple of cracks at that because the work is fascinating and and difficult to get get your head around.
(53:32) So, it was Lindsay outbo at Mirror Mirror. So, I've done some work with them recently to understand that approach because I think they really do a great job of simplifying what happens when you get a group of people into a room and you try and have a conversation, a dialogue about something and the team dynamics take over and and sort of really distort your facilitation of it.
(53:53) So, I think that they've got a wonderful product that I'm working with them on. And then some of the more philosophical stuff, I think, is where I'm trying to go next. Um, and you had Mark Cole on the podcast. He's doing some stuff existentialism as well. Roger Steer is somebody that really informed me. I don't think he's been on your pod really talking about ethics in organizations, what that means.
(54:17) So I I you know I guess I'm trying to I'm trying to take a broader view of what are the different things that might inform my practice adding to that some you know some peer some sort of peer coaching and and some supervision peer supervision and supervision. Yeah. And and I guess, you know, I think maybe the easiest way to do it is to work with good people on on interesting stuff and and and and have these conversations as as you go.
(54:41) And that's, you know, if you're fortunate enough to to work with great people, then try and foster that sort of reflective practice with one another. And working in pairs is is a is a great way of doing it. You know, often as sort of facilitators or practitioners, you put yourself in difficult spots. You know, you're the only one in the room.
(54:57) you're trying to facilitate, listen, think what to say next, and take notes, and that's not a great place to learn. You know, I think we've all found ourselves there. So, if you can sort of find the right people to partner with uh and recognize that it's all a work in progress, I think that's the way that's the way forward.
(55:13) >> So, are there any particular other than your a brilliant book, are there any other books that you'd recommend or podcasts or resources you you'd encourage people to to search out and and look at? >> Yeah, I think so. Well, your yours yours is is phenomenal. I've already tipped a few a few episodes of of yours.
(55:29) You know, I I I was looking actually on my bookshelf to see what which books have sort of like shaped and and and informed I'm a big believer in going back to some of your classics. Go back to the ones that you haven't thrown away for 20 years for a reason. And I've got a few here actually.
(55:46) One is uh the trusted advisor. I don't know if you can see if you can see this one. Yeah, this is 2002. I remember exactly where I was when I bought this book and it really sort of informed what I think that role is when you're trying to add value and and work with others. A book that really a bit of a nerdy book but a textbook.
(56:03) It's the international human resource management. It's actually a Dutch book. So I I picked this up on my m my masters in HR in 989. I felt it it's strange that a textbook would do that to you. I absolutely adore this book because it's all about comparative models of employment and human resource management around the world and I think then I knew I was a budding international international HR person and if you're interested in complex systems then you put in the sort of the international dimension you mean you're never you're never lost right
(56:35) you're never never lost for some work on the on the personal stuff personal change is Marshall Goldsmith I think was the one that got me to really understand what executive coaching is uh and that you know what got you here won't get you there is just is just is sort of evergreen.
(56:55) Um and I picked up a lovely re recommendation from Sophie Per on your podcast which was on a few weeks ago which is Peter Block's Flawless Consulting and uh that's another one of those where you start reading it and you think wow uh you you really have been where I am now and I I can I can learn an awful lot.
(57:12) Uh so yeah so I hope that helps. I mean there's there's so many great podcasts out there and I just encourage that people sort of just have a very sort of broad reference point really. >> Well, when I say huge we just got one last question for you and we ask this on every podcast and it's part of the mission which is to inspire the next generation um of practitioners coming through as well.
(57:31) So I guess what advice would you give to someone either I'll give you a double choice here either considering a career in organization development or embarking on a transformation career so wanting to get involved in it. I'll let you pick which thread you'd like to pull on for that. >> Yeah. I I I I I think you know get involved, put your hand up, have a nose for change, run towards it, not away from it.
(57:51) That will inform, it doesn't matter what seat you take on that project team, you need to be in the room. You need to be as close to the action as possible. So, you know, if you hear that they're starting something up or shutting something down or trying to change the way something is done, put your hand up and say, "I want to be involved.
(58:05) " And the rest will take care of itself. >> Brilliant. before you know it, you'll be in the UAE working on multi-billion dollar transformation. Fantastic. Well, well, RIP want to say a huge thank you. Um Danny and I both really enjoyed the book, which we're both waving here uh for you. Um and also what it does is I think it's very easy for OD and HR to be insular and to just, you know, be in our own echo chamber.
(58:26) But what you've introduced here is the perspective what it actually means to be in the middle of messy change and the difficult choices and the situations that we find ourselves in as well. Danny, what are you taking away from today's conversation? lots. I think I think I've really enjoyed the conversations and the stories and bring it to life for us.
(58:40) I think that kind of reminder it was really easy to fall back into old habits even though we know what needs to be doing and how we want to do it. Just that that kind of that pull back to kind of slide decks and linearity. I think I love the the provocation about thinking about how our UK legislation around HR and employment law affects how we approach change.
(59:00) I think that's a really interesting thing to think through and just that reality that we need to ground ourselves in kind of the bottom line and kind of maintain the momentum but weave in the the humanistic side around it. >> Yeah. And I got loads of things on the way. So I'm going to spend some more time thinking about the how do you artificially create that singularity of focus without having a cyber attack and also how can HR find the right place in relation to the transformational change that's going on and how can it sort of make the most use of its opportunity to
(59:27) actually feed into the transformation and give it some insight that it needs as well and also just being really mindful of the mental models and the change frameworks that our leaders are holding in their minds and getting them surfaced then either working with them or trying to sort help them evolve new ones that might help them deal with the the complexity.
(59:45) And then finally, just that real need to really define and be really clear about what is the role of a good sponsor because that's such an underappreciated role but makes all of the difference when it comes to things as well. So Ruby, we want to say a huge thank you. If people want to follow your work, if they want to grab your book, if they want to use your services, what's the best way for people to reach out to you? >> Yeah, LinkedIn is definitely the best channel to reach me. Yeah.
(1:00:07) So, uh, message me there >> and we'll make sure that all your details and a link to the book are in the show notes that go along with this where they listen to this on audio or you're watching the video as well. But we want to say huge thank you to everyone that's watching us. If you are watching it and you've enjoyed it, then please do hit the like button cuz the algorithm gods love it.
(1:00:22) And the more likes we get, the better able we are equipped to bring in speakers like Robert to join the podcast as well. Um, and also subscribe to the channel. And then finally, if you know someone who's a lost transformation manager or a leader that's having an existential crisis or an HR person that thinks, how do I get more involved? Then please do share the podcast and share Rbert's insights because we get so many shares every single week as well.
(1:00:44) But most importantly, thank you so much, R, for your time. Thank you for writing the book. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you for sharing your insights. We really appreciate it. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. Heat. Heat.