Adaptive Action - Human Systems Dynamics with Glenda Eoyang - Orgdev Episode 100

Most organisations are still managed as if they can be controlled, predicted and engineered into success. But what if that assumption is the problem?

In this episode of the OrgDev Podcast, we explore a different way of seeing organisations - not as machines to optimise, but as complex human systems that are constantly shifting, adapting, and responding to their environment. If you’re dealing with messy change, unclear direction, or patterns that don’t seem to shift despite your best efforts, this conversation will challenge how you think about leadership and organisation development.

This is a special episode - our 100th - and a fitting moment to step back and ask a more fundamental question: what does it really mean to lead in complexity?

We’re joined by one of the most influential voices in this space, to unpack practical ways of working with uncertainty rather than trying to eliminate it. We get into Human Systems Dynamics (HSD), the CDE Model (Containers, Differences, Exchanges), and Adaptive Action - not as theory, but as tools leaders can actually use to understand patterns, make better decisions, and take action in real time

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live 

We'd love to connect with you on Linked In:
linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
https://www.linkedin.com/in/garinrouch

Transcript

(00:00) Hi and welcome to the org dev podcast. So what if the problem isn't your organization but the way you're trying to understand it? What if the world you're leading in isn't something to simplify or control but something to work with as it really is? It's messy. It's fastm moving and unpredictable. Now this is a special episode for Dan and I.

(00:20) This is our 100th episode of the org dev podcast. Who knew we would get to this point? So, it's just been the most amazing last couple of years and we've had the privilege of speaking to practitioners, thinkers, and leaders from all over the world. People shaping how organizations work in practice and it felt important to mark this moment with a conversation with a leading global voice in our field.

(00:45) So, we're absolutely delighted to be joined by Glenda O. Young. Glenda is the founder of human systems dynamics. She founded the field of human systems dynamics along with Royce Holiday and she established the human systems dynamics institute. Glenda's work has shaped how many of us think about organizations, not as things to control or fix, but as systems we need to understand, influence, and work within.

(01:05) She's certified over 1,500 HSD professional associates and worked across the globe, sharing the work of HSD to help people take the next steps as they deal with wicked issues of all sorts. And now the HSD Institute has now evolved into a more distributed global ecosystem of communities and has dedicated her career to helping leaders understand and influence the systems that refuse to sit still.

(01:28) She also holds a doctor of philosophy in human systems dynamics from the Union Institute and University. And Glenda joins us very early in the morning from Minnesota. So, so thank you so much for joining us today, Glenda. >> You're welcome. Thank you. I'm very happy. And to celebrate your hundth We're delighted to have you with us.

(02:00) We've got lots of questions for you. I think it's going to be a great conversation. So, just to kick us off, so for people who might be hearing human systems dynamics for the first time, how would you describe it in simple terms so that somebody can kind of get their head around what it means? We sometimes ask, "How do you describe a wicked issue to a six-year-old?" >> So, I know they're not six years old.

(02:17) So, human systems dynamics takes ideas and lessons from complexity science and applies them to help us see patterns in human systems to understand them and influence them. And so, we sit at this intersection of theory and practice, looking at what happens and how we can engage with complex change.

(02:39) We work at all different scales of human interaction. So we do intrapersonal work, interpersonal work, group dynamics, organization development, community development, and global strategic investment. And so it crosses over many of the layers of work that organization developers do. >> And what are some of the basic building blocks of human systems dynamics you you'd want somebody to understand before they they try and apply it or try and work out what to do with it? So human systems dynamics is kind of a spiral.

(03:09) So it begins with three fundamental practices and then applies those in various places and ways and continues to expand. In fact, every time I talk with anyone, it expands farther and anytime anyone talks to anyone, it expands farther. But the three, think of them as seeds practices. >> So one is adaptive action.

(03:33) It's a very simple problem-solving approach where no matter how messy a situation is, you say, "What am I seeing or hearing or knowing right now about this current situation? So what does it mean? How do I understand it now? What am I going to do?" And then you do it and then you start the cycle again. So that's adaptive action and that's the core of the practice that keeps us moving no matter how chaotic things become.

(04:01) The second key is inquiry. And that's because when you're in uncertainty, the answers that you have don't last very long. Something that's true and a good answer in one place may be a terrible response 5 minutes later in the same place or in some other place. So the only reliable engagement that you have with the world is in good questions.

(04:26) And so to be able to stand in inquiry asking meaningful, useful questions. And so that's the second practice. Not how do you interrogate the truth of a system or how do you get people to understand through questions, but how do you build your own understanding in questions? And then the third is really the thing that is the unique contribution of human systems dynamics which is pattern logic.

(04:52) And pattern logic says in a complex system you can't understand things by blocking them and dividing them up into parts and understanding the parts because they're changing all the time. So you need a different way to conceptualize reality. I know that sounds broad and it's truly broad.

(05:15) But the way that you can think about this reality that's shifting all the time but still make sense of it is to think about what we call the CDE model. So what's holding stuff together in any given moment? What are the differences that make a difference in that moment and how are things connected? So when you begin to see reality through that frame, you're thinking in pattern logic rather than in traditional logic.

(05:41) So those are the three seeds, adaptive action, inquiry, and pattern logic. And all of the rest of the HSD theory and practice emerge from those. Fabulous. That's been that's a lovely introduction, I think, for people just to kind of understand the the basics. And just another question for you.

(05:57) So a lot of our listeners come from an OD background and I'm just really interested in how you see human systems dynamics as different to OD, the same as OD, you know, that the overlap between the two. I guess this could be a big big question. >> It's been a very fun conversation for the 40 years that we've been doing HSD. Um so what I understand now to be the kind of fundamental distinctions.

(06:21) Um the first one is that organization development really focuses on the organizational system level. Now many OD professionals wander up into community development or down into coaching and individual development but essentially the practice is focused on the organization development level. We believe that all of those different scales follow the same kinds of rules.

(06:43) So that's one difference. Now this is there's a distinction I see between the organization development field and the work that organization practitioners do because each of us who has been trained in organization development finds that in a time and a place we choose to do what our clients need more than what our books tell us to do.

(07:05) And so some of us feel like we're working we have to kind of sneak around and do the work we need to do because it isn't really OD. You may have sensed that as well. So when I say it's different from OD, I'm talking about the OD theory base because I think through a process of trial and error and adaptation, many organization development practitioners do HSD practices, but they just don't have names for them yet.

(07:33) So that's one thing is the scale, the intentional scale. The second thing is in general organizational development practitioners start with a diagnosis. So you come in, you collect data, you try to see what the pattern is and what it should be. And we believe that we cannot possibly tell what it should be. That the only people who know what it should be are the people inside it.

(07:56) And so our job is not to diagnose and prescribe. Our job is to hold the conversation so that the people inside the system can do their own adaptive actions. We don't even ask them to diagnose except what are they seeing now? So what now what? And so we help them hold that evolutionary adaptive process.

(08:21) So the first difference is the the scale the level. The second difference is the diagnostic versus engagement approach. So in the engagement approach what we say is it's not just we who shouldn't diagnose but we don't invite our clients to diagnose more than just what is it now so what next what for the next step because when a system is moving so quickly your diagnosis may not last very long and the assumptions that you make to hold a diagnosis may distort more than clarify what is happening in the world.

(09:00) So that's the second distinction. The third one is and this is the last one is that HSD professionals work in all different disciplines and in all different roles. So education, health care, government, foundations, private industry of all kinds in all places, in all roles. Some people are frontline supervisors, some are individual practitioners, some people are executives of multinational corporations, some of them are supportive consulting roles and that the HSD practice gets embedded in whatever the task is and can be practiced by

(09:44) anyone anywhere as opposed to thinking about the OD specialty as a special place in an organization. there becomes a set of skills that belong to anyone who's facing complex issues. So those are the three primary distinctions. So Glenn, that's that's absolutely fascinating. And I guess so one of the big things there is is the stance that you take when you're in an organization is somewhat different, isn't it? So you shouldn't know what it should be, but you're kind of building is it adaptive capacity in an organization? So it's the

(10:15) ability of individuals to do that. How is that for for leaders that might be wanting something that might simplify a thing? You're not giving out easy answers here, are you? >> Right. So, this is quite interesting because there's a whole in addition to saying how we're different from OD, there are other people who ask how are you different from other complexity approaches because there are now many complexity approaches to organizations and the ways that we're different from them. There are also three ways, but one

(10:42) of them is we look for what's simple. So many approaches to complexity are very complicated, hard to understand, difficult theoretical, not practically applicable. But HSD strives to be very simple. And the reason is that when you're in the middle of a wicked issue, you do not have time to stop and do a whole systems dynamics model or to run a computer simulation model.

(11:12) You just don't have time for that. And so we've tried to develop and and in most ways we succeeded to develop a small set tools that let you see into and influence the dynamics of the system without understanding them completely and you can keep those tools in your back pocket and they're easy to share, they're easy to describe, they're easy to use.

(11:36) And so that's one of the ways that we're different in complexity. The second is that it's practical. So when I first began to do human systems dynamics, I was an entrepreneur. I needed help to get my work done. And so I really strive to find what is both true in terms of the science and the experience and the theory and useful.

(12:01) And so it's very practical and applied. And the third thing is that we are continually learning. So many people in the complexity field have a body of work they want to pass on to you like a scientific finding that they want you to believe and understand. And we think instead that this is an an always growing expanding field that we are in inquiry about our work in the same way we're in inquiry about our clients works.

(12:30) That idea about it's being simple our drive. So you can use the models and methods without understanding any of the theory. Let me give you an example. One of my favorite tools is same and different. And what it is is a T-shape. And on one side it says same and on the other side it says different. This is profound.

(12:51) And so when you come into a really messy situation, this is the first thing you do. You ask how what are the similarities in this space? What's the same across it? And how is this same as other things I've seen? And you ask what are the differences here? And which of those differences make a difference? And by the time you've done that simple process, you begin to have an engagement and an understanding with the system.

(13:13) So that's maybe the most simple of our tools and also the most powerful and and I think I've enjoyed so much sort of reading into your work as well and and that that practicality is a is a constant thing throughout because this can easily become a very intellectual field, can't it? where we're just trying to think and um I think one of the things that sort of stood out for me is that you said that we we can't control complex systems but we can tune conditions and it was like a a real kind of precision to the way in which you're

(13:39) thinking about engaging with a system to get different types of results and the kind of the skill and the thought that goes into that as well >> that goes back to the pattern logic. So those three conditions and we think about them as conditions in the system because even if we're not looking at it, something is holding the system together, keeping it just from totally dissipating.

(14:04) Something is shaping the pattern with difference. There's some difference there that's causing it to have friction or tension or possibility. And there's something flowing in the system. And those are the conditions that let us see the pattern. We call the what's holding it together, we call that the container. That's the C. The difference that makes a difference, the tension that's held in the system is the D. And whatever is flowing is the E.

(14:31) So there are lots of examples. If you think about a team, so the container may be its goal, maybe it's membership list, maybe the place or the time where it meets. All of those things are things that hold it together. the team leader, the organizational structure. Anyway, all of those things are holding it together.

(14:50) Those are the C's and the D's may be expertise or experience or power or access or history are the differences that are going to shape the work of that team. And the exchanges are how do they connect with each other? Emails and meetings and virtual meetings. And those are the conditions that establish how that team is going to function.

(15:15) Now, if the team is not functioning well, it's because one of those is not fit for function. Either the container is too big or too small for the team to get its work done. Or there are too many differences and the system is just running around trying to figure out how to land. or there are too few differences and it sticks because it can't go anywhere because there's not enough energy to move it or the exchanges are not functional.

(15:43) People aren't speaking and listening to each other. Now this is another distinction with OD which sometimes comes up and that is that most OD interventions focus on the exchange part of the pattern that dialogue is establishing an exchange that many of the approaches are about exchange but what I found as a budding OD practitioner was there were lots of times when we would build wonderful exchanges but the system wouldn't change that we would have a great time in a conversation know we'd have a lead a dialogue but the system we'd go away and

(16:19) we'd feel great but the system wouldn't change and so often it's in the differences that make a difference or the containers that are privileged that's where the system is stuck and so unless your dialogue is about those things then you may feel better but the system doesn't so you were talking there about difference and that was one of the things I think when we had the preme you said that the idea that difference is where the energy lives in the system so just wanted to explore that a little bit more that often when we talk to other

(16:47) leaders or even practitioners the kind of difference is seen as something to smooth over or kind of you know get rid of it or get you know dissipate it. How does human systems dynamics look at that differently? How do you look at difference? >> Uh this is this was one of the things that really concerned me really early.

(17:08) um much of the early work I did with human systems dynamics, I was a facilitator and I'd do the theory and then I'd practice in the room and then I'd do theory and come back to practice. And one of the things that I realized was that if I walked into a room and everyone either was or pretended to be in agreement, the meeting would just accomplish nothing.

(17:30) And if there were differences that they had talked about for a long time and they had separate opinions that they just were not going to move from, the meeting wouldn't move anywhere. But that if there were differences that were important but weren't yet locked in, then we could have a good conversation. And often my role as facilitator was to find that magic mix of differences that made a difference but that were still movable.

(17:54) And so I began to think about the energy of that group as lying in those differences. And so that's really quite different from an OD perspective where walking into a room, what you want to find is the common ground. And common ground isn't bad. If you don't have any, then you can't even function with the differences.

(18:16) The system can't settle at all. But once you find a similarity that holds the system together and then to find the energy in which differences to focus on then the group can move forward with some intention. The other thing is to assume that differences should be destroyed >> that you should resolve them. Either you should choose or you should find some third way but that in order to move forward you have to be the same.

(18:44) And what we say is no because there are some differences that are not and should not be resolved. Johnston's work in polarity management touches on this idea. But the idea that there are some differences like tradition and innovation. Let's play with that one. So often you go into an organization and it's stuck because some of its parts or some of its people are trying to innovate, innovate, innovate and other parts and other people are trying to hold on to tradition.

(19:16) This is the way we've always done it and these are the things we know work and that tension between the two can get the organization stuck. But if you say not either or or even both and because we know really we can think about both and but we can't really do both at the same moment but we say instead which one how much and when. So in a particular moment you can say how much tradition do we need and how much innovation do we need in this task in this moment.

(19:51) when, how much, and which way. Are we too much on the tradition end, and we need to slide back to some more innovation in this moment, or are we stuck in our innovative voice? We're losing touch and we need to go back to tradition. So, our job is then to navigate between those differences, moving sometimes one way, sometimes the other way, constantly in adaptive action.

(20:15) What's the current situation? So what, now what? And so difference then becomes your kind of map for choice making and decision making, not an enemy of it. >> You describe difference as kind of sort of holding energy in a system. It's not like metaphorically. It's like it's actually a property of the system almost.

(20:35) And and and in physical systems like I'm a physics geek and I know uh it's just it's just so amazing when you start to see it, but in in in systems energy doesn't disappear, it just kind of transforms. So what where does that energy go? like when it's suppressed or when it's released. I'm really curious about that. >> It's a lovely question.

(20:52) It goes into a different container. So, in any given moment, there is an infinite number of containers that are all working at the same time. We may focus in on one, but that leaves all of the others. So, let's say I'm working in that facilitation setting. The container I'm interested in is that group of people and their interactions.

(21:13) At the same time, each of them is an individual processing in whatever way they do. And they're also part of a larger network of family, personal, private. This facilitation group is part of a series as part of an organization. And so they're all different sizes of containers, they're all existing at the same time. So when I'm working with this group and something happens in the group to release tension, a difference gets resolved in it.

(21:40) the individual people will be sparked inside themselves. And when this group has made a decision and we speak out what our decision is, our energy is released out into the rest of the system. So whatever container I'm working in, when I resolve or release that energy, it goes into one of the other infinite number of containers that are touched by it.

(22:03) But I can't predict which ones or where or how. And I guess that gets to the heart of some of the challenges or opportunities of being a facilitator in a system like this. So, so for example, big group, lots of big dominant voices. Someone may have a particular strong feeling about something, they don't share it in this particular domain.

(22:21) It's very likely they'll go off to a more familiar type of group and express that energy in another way which might create more. This is obviously my please critique this but that creates energy in a different place and it's to as as facilitator you could chase it around can't you to try and find it and jump on it how can you work with that >> yes it's a great question so to to find in the system where it's stuck and maybe it's stuck in a different meeting maybe it's stuck in the seauite maybe it's stuck in HR where HR choices are not

(22:58) working Well, maybe it's stuck in customer relationships, maybe it's stuck in quality, but which container is it most stuck in? And then you go into that container in so far as it's possible. And so you step into that place and to say, how is this a functional difference in this place? How are you in your adaptive action? What's working for you and what's not? So what are your options to make a difference? And now what can you do to shift the system in the way you might choose not what should the seauite do but what can you do with the

(23:36) efficacy and attachment that you have in the system where you are and so it is kind of chasing it around the same way an acupuncturist does. So in acupuncture there are many places in the body that are tense as they release one another one tenses. And so part of your role as an OD practitioner is to see the whole system and to be able to zoom into the part where the tension is greatest and the difference is most fruitful potentially and then zoom back out and then zoom back in and so that you have the facility to see the system at many

(24:11) scales and many containers and then to choose which one is most has most potential in that moment. He described this wonderful fourbox grid with two dimensions of exchange and difference. Is that right? And what I loved about it was the ability to intentionally sort of focus on different areas or at least noticing where where the predominant um action is and then you can take certain steps, aren't you? And what kind of conditions you're likely to get or outcomes you're likely to get in certain conditions. So high exchange and

(24:42) high difference, you're more likely to have certain types of behaviors happening. Could you just give us a little bit of an insight into that? >> So this is to say thinking about a single container inside that container you've got differences and exchanges and you have several choices. So if you think about high difference and high and low difference and high exchange and low exchange then that gives you four options.

(25:10) So in the low difference low exchange that means all the system is the same and they're not talking about anything. So, I think about my husband after we'd been married 30 years and we'd go out to dinner and we'd sit at a table enjoying dinner and enjoying each other and saying nothing because we were perfectly happy and had nothing to talk about. We were just enjoying each other.

(25:31) So, that's low difference, low exchange, absolutely comfortable and happy. Now, the benefit of that is that it's secure and safe and comfortable. But the risk is that nothing happens and if you stay there too long you get bored and the system just dies of boredom. So that's one place.

(25:52) Then you can think about the times as an OD practitioner when you've walked into those systems or you've sometimes hoped for those systems. So that's the first. The second is to think about low difference and high exchange. And so we're all the same but we're talking about it all the time now. We're seeing that in the US tremendously these days within political parties.

(26:15) So I talk to the people that I agree with and we talk about all the time. The news comes out and we're running through the news again and the other side is also running through the news again. And in that case it's good because you get a chance to release the energy. You get reinforcement for where you're standing. It can give you a sense of belonging.

(26:33) That can be good. But if you stay there too long, you get just stuck in a loop, which is kind of where we are in an internal loop and not being able to connect outside that loop. You only talk to the people who agree with you because it's so much fun to talk to them. And that's often in the parking lot conversations that you're talking about.

(26:52) When you're with people that are not like you, you don't talk. But when you're with people who are like you, you talk a lot. So then there is the possibility of high difference and low exchange. So this is the place where there are people who really disagree but they are not talking at all about something.

(27:12) And as an extrovert I think that's a bad place to be always but I can tell you for sure that introverts like it because it's their safe space. It's the space where they go inside are thinking about what they need and want to do. They don't want to deal with the external container in that moment. It's a place where they can be separate and safe in the things that they think.

(27:34) But if you stay there for too long, then the system is stuck. The energy builds up and builds up until it explodes. So you're familiar. You know how that feels. Even as I describe them, I have the sense in my belly about how it feels to be in that system. I hope you do, too. >> And just a trigger warning for those watching at home.

(27:57) >> That's right. and and then the fourth one which is high difference and high exchange. So that's where learning happens. That's what you establish in your podcast. That's why you're having a hundred of them is that every time you start a podcast, you find that space where there's an important difference and you establish an exchange that's rich and full.

(28:21) So learning, excitement, growth happens there. But the negative side is that's also where radical conflict happens. And so because bombs and bullets are also exchange, fight and anger are also exchange. And so the trick in that space is to be sure that you're tuning the differences that make a difference and the exchanges so that what you're getting is the most productive possibility across that line.

(28:51) so that the differences in the exchanges are well matched so that you're tending toward the learning pattern of self-organizing and not toward the destructive one. It's called the difference matrix and it was the very first HSD model that I developed to help myself think about facilitated situations and organizational patterns as well.

(29:15) >> Are there kind of conditions that particularly thinking about an organization lens because that's the where where we work. Are there conditions that make organizations more receptive to working with human system dynamics? Are there things that need to be in place to make it something that that's more likely to work or take hold? >> Oh, that's a fabulous question.

(29:32) Fabulous question. And what I've observed is that if a an organization thinks it knows what it should do, thinks it knows how to solve the problems that it holds, they are not the least bit interested in HSD because they are still embedded in their own assumptions and have the excuse me arrogance to think that their old assumptions are going to solve it.

(29:55) No matter how many times they try, they just keep doing the same thing over and over. But if an organization or for that matter an individual in an organization recognizes that what they're doing is not solving and will not solve the problem. When they get convinced of that, then they raise their heads out of their list of assumptions and really start to ask >> what is an alternative path? And those are the clients that I look for.

(30:24) Sometimes I say my clients are the desperate ones. they've tried everything else and yeah they like >> they've tried everything else and they're willing to take the risk of something else. Now what I found when I first started doing this work in the late 80s there were not many of those. In fact there were almost no organizations that were there.

(30:43) There were individuals who were there. But over the decades, we have had breaks in our cultural, social, political, economic, even infrastructure frames that have taught us that the old approaches don't work. And so we as professional individuals or as organizations or even as disciplines or firms or industries start to step out to look for something new.

(31:11) then they reach for human systems dynamic to help them at that kind of edge. And I think that that has been the journey for many OD practitioners as well that you start when you finish your program, you've learned everything, you've read all the books, you think you know what's right what you go and you try it and you may not be doing damage, but you also realize you're not doing the help that you might do.

(31:37) And it's at that moment that you begin to recognize they have to keep learning and experimenting and stretching and staying in community and listening to podcasts and exploring challenging yourself as a practitioner that you stop defending your practitioner status and start inquiring about and extending it. And it's when someone's in that place of learning, then that's the perfect time and place for HSD.

(32:06) >> And I think it's been one of the joys of doing the podcast. Some of the feedback we get from people is they're listening to lots of different practitioners coming from different angles. And it's that kind of sense of I don't need to know it all there. There's not a there's not an answer to the thing and I'm going to become the practitioner an OD practitioner.

(32:23) It's like that's being comfortable in the not knowing and there's lots of different ways of approaching the work. So I think I think yeah, we've had lots of feedback from people saying it's been grounding and reassuring just to hear lots of different perspectives and let go of that knowing and certainty >> and to play in that experimentation with respect and to play alongside your clients.

(32:44) So you're not playing with your clients as if they were clay that you're trying to shape, >> but that you and they are playing together with the environment they're working in and with the challenges they face. So that relationship with the client is really a very important one too and to inspire that kind of curiosity and experimentation and delight with learning in your clients or to find clients who already have it.

(33:08) I think that's a great contribution that you make to the field is giving us all a place to engage in that way. >> Hi, we're just pausing this interview for a moment. Have you ever finished an episode of the org dev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points? Us too, so we made one.

(33:29) It's called from pod to practice. And each week in our newsletter will share a two-page summary of the latest org dev episode. And it includes key takeaways, a reflection prompt, and one small action you can try. And it's all in a digital format with space at the end to add your own notes and reflections. And it's designed to help you take the learning from the podcast into your day-to-day work.

(33:48) So to get your copy, just sign up to our next step to better newsletter, the links in the show notes, or you can visit our website at www.distinction.live to get the latest from pod to practice in your inbox. And let us know what you think. We'd love to get your feedback. >> And I love what you said. You said, I think answers have a short shelf life, but questions are the coin of the realm, which is that those are the key tools to do that discovering.

(34:09) And when we met you in the preme, you talked about what it takes to work in this uncertainty. you talked about the importance of intention and grace and and we love those phrases and we wonder if you could just maybe define that a little bit more. So how do you work with uncertainty but sort of maintain that intention and grace? >> One of the ways to think about that is often OD field talks about competencies.

(34:31) What are the skills you have to do to do the work? And in a complex world there's no finite list of competencies that's going to get you ready to do the work. But what you need is confidence that whatever comes, you'll be able to respond to engage in a way that is open and respectful and full of attention but not prediction, not control.

(34:57) And I believe that that's what me and Chung Judge and Dave Jameson are pointing to and raising up when they talk about use of self. that we are standing in a place where we are confident enough to provide support and help but also curious enough to adapt as we need and want to and to be able to stand in that space with with care.

(35:23) And sometimes we operationalize that in a really concrete way with four rules for inquiry. One is to turn judgment into curiosity. So when I am engaging with something I don't understand and I go into judgment about it then I get stuck in that judgment and I'm not able to to have the empathy that I need or the insight or the curiosity. And so if I can recognize when I'm in judgment and find a useful question to engage instead that's one way.

(35:53) The second is when there's conflict to turn that into shared exploration. So that rather than having the energy in the system locked in that conflict, the energy is then released to some shared exploration together and the system can move forward. The third is to turn defensiveness into selfexloration and self-reflection.

(36:18) so often in times of change and I know in early in my career as an OD practitioner so certain about what should work and when it didn't it was always the client's fault if the client had only da da da da it would have worked but they didn't so it didn't so I'm off the hook so that defensiveness is just a real block to the grace and empathy and possibility so if you can recognize that in it's not that you're not going to feel it you're going to feel But but when you do, what do you do next? And if you turn that into

(36:54) self-reflection, what is it that is working or isn't working or why did I think that would work or what are what are the things that I thought I knew that I don't know or what else is possible? What can I do in my own internal adaptive action to release energy and the difference here so that it can show up in the container which is the client's world.

(37:16) And then the fourth, and that's the last one, is turn assumptions into questions. And this one you have to do with a community because you can't see your own assumptions. You can know when they're being challenged, but you can't really see them. So to have a partner as you do. Um, each one to say, "Now, wait a minute. Wait a minute.

(37:34) What are what are you assuming there? My assumptions are a little bit different. How can we turn those into questions?" And so those are the four kind of practices that we use almost like Zen practices to try to help us stay in that space, that stance of grace and inquiry. Well, stay in it. We don't stay in it, but to get back into it when we lose it.

(37:55) We've talked about the human systems dynamics institute. You you've made some big decisions around the institute recently and you in terms of stepping back and taking it forward in a new direction and I'm just really interested to explore that a little bit. often when you've got a founder they're wanting to protect or preserve the work that they've done and you're you're doing something quite different with it aren't you? >> Well, we are in the process of it.

(38:15) So, it's an emerging pattern. So I can describe it in terms of pattern logic. From the time we started the institute in 2001 and up until about 5 years ago, we realized that we needed that container of an institute as a kind of incubator for the differences that made a difference to us and the exchanges that would feed the growth of the field needed that container.

(38:40) Now we reached out and there were networks and there were connections that we individuals and institutions clients and associates that we connected with but it was very clear that the field was held in that container. So from that container about 5 years ago we realized that we were damping or constraining what the whole field could do.

(39:04) >> That people in all parts of the world were saying well would Glendon Royce want us to do this? What would they say? Is that okay? No, you can't do that because Glenda is not doing that. Or I shouldn't do that. Or can I write a book? They'd say to me about HSD. And I was I would always say yes, please.

(39:22) Yes, do it. Do whatever. But they didn't believe it. And so I realized that what had the container that had allowed the growth early >> was stressing and constraining the growth later. >> So it was really clear we needed to let go. Besides that, I'm ready to retire and so is Royce. And there's we want it to sustain and we didn't think anybody else would be allowed to hold that container for the whole that that pattern was just so solidly with us.

(39:50) So for the first year, we talked with associates who were close in about what they needed to sustain their work, what would work for them in the long term to sustain their work in human systems dynamics, wanting to have it continue to be identifiable as HSD, but also to be flexible over time so that it would change as the world changed.

(40:14) And so we as we talked with them, we began to realize that there were three things they needed. They needed a container which was a library of materials and so we have online everything Royce and I ever wrote is online free access on the web accessible and associates said they really needed to have that place where the body of work was held >> and so that's there.

(40:40) The second thing they needed was way to capture the differences to engage with the differences one person to another person to another person so that all those diverse associates needed to be able to learn from each other. If I know something and I want to share it, I need to know somebody who needs it or if I have a question I need to access to someone who knows something I don't know.

(41:04) So they needed a way to find each other and so we call that the plaza. And then the third thing was we needed some way to have an exchange of financial resources so that the plaza and the library could continue to be supported. We called that the bank. And so those three very thin infrastructures, they're all very lowcost or free platforms that those would establish whatever infrastructure the field would need going forward.

(41:36) There were clusters of all different kinds of associates around the world. Some of those were businesses, for-profit consulting firms, some of them were individuals, some academics, some groups of practitioners inside organizations, all different configurations, people. And each of those we call the community. And each of them we hope continues to generate things that feed others and to absorb things that come from others.

(42:04) That's why we use the metaphor of an ecosystem where no species are the same in the ecosystem and yet they support each other's continuing existence and growth. And so that's the way we think about this group of cluster of open system of people who are interested in HSD. Now, 1500 of them are certified >> that we have trained in the field, but there's an unknown number of people like you who are part of that ecosystem and exchange through things like the podcast.

(42:40) And so, we have no idea how many communities there are in this this ecosystem, >> but we do know that it continues to feed itself. And there are two things that hold that whole diverse, massively entangled, large global system that give it identity. And those two things are special kinds of containers so that you know if you're in it or not in it.

(43:03) And those are the vision statement and the simple rules. And the vision statement is not just something we want to create in the future. The vision is the pattern that we generate or strive to generate every moment in every place. I would hope that we've together generated it today.

(43:25) So it is people everywhere thrive because we see patterns clearly. We seek to understand and we act with courage to transform turbulence and uncertainty into possibility for all. So every community, every individual in the world who focuses their energy on that creating that in every moment they are part of this ecosystem. And the second are the simple rules.

(43:51) The vision gives us a very strong container that brings us together. But we know that a complex system needs two things. It needs coherence as a whole, but it also needs individual freedom. So each of the people in that whole ecosystem needs to be able to do what they do at the time and place that they do. So they need to be locally free but they also need to be part of a coherent whole.

(44:17) So this is a challenge in every complex system and one branch of complexity science says that the way that that happens is that if every single entity is following the same set of simple rules then a coherent hole will emerge. So the paradigm for this is a flock of birds. So all the birds each one of them is by themselves.

(44:40) Nothing is telling them what to do. And yet you see a murmmoration of the lovely starings in the Lake District. How does that happen? Well, computer simulation models say it happens because each bird is following three rules. Fly toward the center, match the speed of your neighbor, and don't run into anybody.

(45:01) So sometimes when I'm with a group, we'll go outside and we'll follow those three rules and see how we as a classroom of people flock like birds. But um so we realized if we were to have both the local freedom and the global coherence we would need simple rules in HSD and so these are they the first one is stand in inquiry which you can see clearly how that ties into the work.

(45:26) >> The second is find the energy and difference which we've also talked about today and that that's the place where like an acupuncture needle you intervene. zoom in and zoom out which allows us to zoom into ourselves and very careful self-reflection and zoom out to the globe and zoom in to concern about another individual and so that there's a flexibility.

(45:53) It's not just are you on the dance floor in the balcony. It's that there are an infinite number of scales where you need to stand and you need to be conscious of how you're moving from one to another every instant. That's zoom in and zoom out. search for what's true and useful and that's the theory practice practice space so that everything we do we're asking ourselves is this useful in this moment and is it true because it's not always both. So we look for both.

(46:21) The next is connect with stories and impacts so that when we come together, we're not just talking about theoretical this and that and we're not just arguing about what is or bragging about who's smartest. Our engagements are about what are the stories of the exchanges and the work that you're having in the world and what's the impact that you're having.

(46:43) And that's the connection that really brings us together in a productive conversation so that we don't um who's the smartest in the room is never a question in HSD. And not just because I'm in the room, but because it's not the question. I'm not even asking that question. And the last rule is celebrate life.

(47:05) So that it's really easy in a complex system to feel exhausted and overwhelmed and frustrated and um and frustrated and angry. And to be able to stand in that inquiry with celebrating life is part of that grace. And it's one of the great lessons that we learned from the Yanqin judge is how to celebrate life. Oh my goodness, that woman knew how.

(47:28) Uh and so those are the simple rules. And so when and wherever we go, we follow those. And when we find ourselves falling off them, we invite ourselves back into them, each other. And so that there's a kind of accountability in this ecosystem to that identity. So the vision and the simple rules are the heart, the beating heart of HSD and the tree limbs and mycelium network grows from that.

(47:56) >> And how are you supposed to come up with your simple rules? because there's a simple rules. They sound beautiful when you articulate them, but what's the process of arriving at those as your simple rules? >> Well, that's a great question. And one of the things that we teach people in the certification is how to help any group find their simple rules.

(48:13) As we were doing it, well, there are two times. One is if you're starting from something from scratch and you have a lot of freedom then you say what's the pattern we want to create in the future and what would be the conditions that would create that and what are the behaviors because simple rules have to start with verbs. They're behaviors.

(48:32) They're not beliefs. >> They're behaviors. So if we were doing this we would create that pattern which moves toward our vision. And so and you can have just a few. There can't be more than seven or you forget them. >> So there have to be a short list and they have to be simple. And so as we considered the pattern that we wanted HSD to be back in 2001 when Royce and I were considering what this community might be and at that point we were talking maybe there would be 50 people who would be in this community with us

(49:04) and what we would want that to be and we realized that we wanted those patterns. We wanted us to be working in theory and practice. We wanted us to be in inquiry. We wanted us to be able to zoom in and zoom out that those were the characteristics that we would want to generate that pattern. And then we tested them out.

(49:23) >> We made a list and we tried them and we asked other people how they worked and we saw what happened and what and we've changed them over time. So you are continually doing adaptive action on the rules themselves because as you change and the system changes the rules need to.

(49:42) So for example, we wanted a pattern of affirmation. We wanted it to be a very appreciative network. So we had a rule that was reinforce the strengths of self and others. It was a great rule. It gave us a very appreciative environment. And by about 5 years in, we were having a lot of quality problems because we were reinforcing everybody's strengths and not at all paying attention to the ways that we needed to do better.

(50:07) And so we were getting the pattern that we asked for, but we realized that was not the pattern that we needed. >> And so we shifted that rule to get a different kind of relationship. Um, and so that's it. So you say, what's the pattern you want? What are the actions that would give you that pattern? And how can you frame those in a short list that are meaningful to the community? Now, most of my clients don't have the the luxury of starting from scratch.

(50:38) >> They're working in a system that already has simple rules that they may not be conscious of, but every culture has a set of simple rules that are driving it. Conscious or unconscious, they're there. And so often with the client, the first thing to do is to query what are their current simple rules.

(50:58) So, what does it mean to do stuff around here? How do you make the decisions that you make and to surface those? And often that surfacing is a great dialogic process about what are the differences that make a difference and why do we get the patterns we want. So for example, we were working with a merger of social service agencies at one point and we were trying to find there was 3,000 people in one government department that had been brought together and they were trying to get collective coherence.

(51:29) So we thought simple rules would be great. So we asked this group what are your current simple rules? So they were max mix tables what is one of the simple rules that drives your decisionm and so the first group said oh serve the public do what's right follow the law and everybody said yes that's right. The second group said cover your boss's ass.

(51:54) Don't give away information unless you have to. the real rules. >> The real rules. And everybody went, "Yes." Everybody 150 of them said, "Yes, those are the rules." And the leader who was sitting behind me just gasped. And so we called a break. No. And so by surfacing those rules, I said, "Now that you know, your question is how do you change those rules? what's the smallest shift that you can make in those rules that exist that will move it forward? And so we spent lunch talking with him about what was the smallest

(52:32) change that could be made to make a difference. And so because he had been working in HSD a bit and was beginning to see, he found say your truth because he realized that if you're saying your truth, then the rules will also shift. And so when we came back, we said, "Okay, all of those other rules, they're embedded in the culture in so many ways, and it's not going to be easy to change them, but the one rule that we're going to include and and he said it, the one rule that we're going to include is say your truth and listen to others." That

(53:06) was the second part of it. Sorry. Say your truth and listen to others. And so that begin began to set the shift the frame. So when you're in an organization that has a negative culture, if you come in and say, "Let's see what pattern we want to create," all you get is cynicism. >> But if you say instead, "What's the pattern that we have now and how can we and nobody likes it and how can we guide ourselves out of that in an evolutionary process, then that's a different kind of conversation.

(53:38) " >> That's just such an interesting thing on so many levels. I I love the the way in which you've embodied your own principles to take HSD Institute to the next step as well and also that example of sort of servicing those rules too. How has it been actually cuz you are the founder of it to a certain extent it is your baby and you know when you have 1500 practitioners around the world in different contexts of different cultural backgrounds and all kind of things and and and it becomes what it becomes.

(54:06) How does it feel to have seen it developed far beyond what you imagine it to be and how easy has it been to sort of let go of it? >> Oh, that's that's a really interesting question. Every associate has taught me that lesson because it's very clear in HSD that no two practitioners are the same. So getting certified doesn't mean you'll come out stamped on your head.

(54:29) I'm I'm like Glenda O. Young. Uh it's not it's not a pattern that we replicate. It's a pattern that each one creates. >> So the goal of the certification is to prepare people to continually recreate themselves as HSD associates so that each person creates their own version of HSD and always has. They have common characteristics and patterns are the same and there's a coherence to the whole but each one is unique.

(54:59) So from the very beginning we were generating HSD which was not mine and so now it's that writ large but it's not all that different from the very p first person who learned from me and was frustrated because I wouldn't tell them exactly what they should do and I kept saying no you need to take these ideas into your own work no you tell me what to do no take these into your own space and that's why the certification training is five days of face-toface or online focus content to learn the patterns and possibilities. But then it's four months

(55:33) of practice in your own world, in your own place, creating your own version of HSD in the place and time where you stand. Even the language can be different. What you call things and how you frame them are different. Not just translating by language, but by culture. And so, for example, we call them simple rules because that's what the scientists call them in computer simulation models.

(55:57) Attorneys do not want to call them rules. Like lawyers, barristers are saying like those aren't rules. We don't want to have rules. We know what rules are and these aren't the rules. Um so instead they call them other things. Sometimes they call them principles or practices. We worked with an agricultural group once that called them seed behaviors.

(56:19) So they don't even have to be called the same thing. you can create a language that carries these fundamental principles into the world where they stand. And so today, it's really just thrilling to be able to say each person that I talk with has created his or her own HSD and that I can see those seeds that have been planted all these years giving fruit, all different kinds of fruit in all different places.

(56:47) And just a quick sidebar question to that because you talked about sort of how you create coherence in a system and and the world is full of dead purpose statements and vision statements that organizations have to try and bring us together under and they most times they don't land most people can't recite them as well but you've sort of come up with your own version of it.

(57:06) How do you know what can create coherence in a group? Like how do you know whether to whether it's a rules moment or like how do you how do you find your way into that? >> You don't know ahead of it's uncertain. So you don't know, you can't predict. All you can do is propose and experiment. So you do what you think might fit or that the people that you're working with might fit or what the tradition might fit.

(57:30) So you collect all the patterns that you can see. You can't collect them all, but you collect the ones you can see and you make a best guess, a next wise action. And then you test them. And when they don't work, you change them. And if they do work, you reinforce them. And with that process, either yourself as a consultant or much better if you're doing it if the client is doing it for themselves in their own space.

(57:57) I mean, that's ultimately what you want, right? Is that you can walk away and they continue to use and to test the coherence. So, but you can never predict ahead of time if it's going to do it. And that's part of the reason why you have to be in inquiry and doing your own adaptive action. the more experience you get, the better your the closer your guests can be and also the more humility you have about how you might miss it.

(58:19) >> We ask this question in every podcast and we'd love to get your perspective from this. So, what advice would you give to someone who's just considering a career in the organization development field? So, they're just taking their first steps. Maybe they're an HR practitioner thinking there must be another way or that, you know, there's just somebody who's just taking their steps.

(58:39) What What advice would you give? Oh, a great question. I think that the thing would be to stand in inquiry, to find a mentor with whom you can be in inquiry, continue to reflect in yourself about what's working or not, read and continue to learn in inquiry, work in teams that are collaborative so you can be in inquiry.

(59:01) Be aware when something's not working so you're constantly looking in inquiry. So if you're in learning mode and are finding ways to learn all the time and to experiment all the time, then you'll be of service to yourself and others. And that that really I think is the the most powerful thing you can do. >> Glender, we want to say a huge thank you.

(59:23) I don't think Danny and I could have wished for a better person to have as our hundth episode. What what a fitting end to an incredible journey for the first hundred. So So thank you, Glenda. Danny, what are you taking away from the conversation today? I don't even know where to start. It was so rich and I've got so many insights.

(59:37) I think just one I think that struck me was just the idea of simp simplicity in the middle of complexity and how important it is that we hold that for for our clients that they don't need more complexity. They've got enough of that already. So how can we work with them in a simple way and the standing inquiry and the those three really simple questions what so what now what and how powerful they can be in so many different ways >> and and for me I I don't I've had so many moments since really getting into this talk taking a step back in the

(1:00:03) moment and realized there's so much happening in the rich detail of of the moment like how energ is being released how you sort of can keep adapting to the size of the container you know sometimes you just need to stabilize the team a little so you just reduce the amount of exchange change and give people some space for a moment to let them re dodge.

(1:00:19) I just think there's so much richness. So, anybody who's watching this, we really want you to watch this again and really extract all the value from it as well. If people want to follow where they want to engage in your human systems dynamics and you are actually running a program this year, aren't you in the beautiful cults? >> Yes, we are indeed.

(1:00:36) So, starting on October the 11th, that week is a patterns and possibility face to face for 5 days and we are very excited about it. It will be at Hawkwood College. If you're familiar with that lovely, lovely facility, that's where we're going to be this year. And so that patterns and possibilities and then the four months of online engagement begin then when we complete that program.

(1:01:00) And so you can find out about it writing to hsdin info patart.com or going to the online work at humansystemsdynamics.org. og all one word human systemsdynamics.org is the website that's run by the ecosystem and so it has information about the program as well. Uh there is also online on the library all of the work that we've written and it's keyword searchable.

(1:01:37) So uh you can find it through hsdinstitute.org or library and then it's keyword searchable or you can ask any of the AI engines because it's very smart about HSD because everything we know is in the cloud and so it's so accessible to AI. It's been fascinating about how AI has discovered the details about HSD. >> Brilliant.

(1:02:02) And we'll make sure that all of those links that Glenn has shared are in the show notes as well. So go to all those and you know explore the resources. It's such a rich area, isn't it? >> Thank you so much and congratulations on your 100th anniversary and I hope for hundred more. >> Thank you. >> Brilliant. Well, I want to say a huge thank you and everyone who's watched us, everyone who's been part of the journey so far.

(1:02:24) Uh Danny, how many countries are we in now? >> 112 countries. >> Yeah. And it just shows the breadth of appetite and need for the field as well. And that's because of brilliant thinkers like Linda that is just so generous with the experience and insights as well. So we want to thank all of the audience. Thank you for all the shares that we get.

(1:02:45) Every single week we get these amazing number of stats. So if you know someone who is in complexity or they're stuck or you think they're you know this is the right time then share this podcast with them and let them have an entrance into Glender's brilliant work. It's such a rich area as well. So please do that as well.

(1:03:01) Um, and also if you've enjoyed the podcast, please hit the like button and subscribe because that enables us to get, you know, just keep the amazing guests that we've got coming like Glenda to keep joining us. Um, to keep the podcast alive and thriving as well. But mostly we want to say a huge thank you.

(1:03:14) Thank you so much for getting up at such an early time in the morning, Glenda, and join us. You've just been the most amazing guest and we've loved preparing for it, haven't we, Dy? >> We have. Absolutely. It's been a delight. >> Oh, thank you so much. And the next time I'm on your side of the pond, let's get together and share some air.

(1:03:29) Have a face of That would be lovely. >> Thank you so much for your wonderful work. >> Thank you. Heat.