The Real Reason Strategy Fails with Stefan Cousquer - OrgDev Episode 98

Why do leadership teams say the future matters - and then fail to make time for it?

This episode examines a common pattern inside organisations: strong strategies, but limited execution. We explore how top teams prioritise, make decisions, and enable strategic change, and why leadership effectiveness is often constrained not by capability, but by how time, attention, and work are structured.

Here are the links to Stefan’s latest editorials:

Why strategy fails – the five tensions future-ready executive teams learn to steward: 

https://www.hultashridge.com/en/insights/article/strategy-and-transformation/

Your executive team doesn’t have a strategy problem – they have a time problem: 

https://www.hultashridge.com/en/insights/article/faculty-column-transformation/

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live 

We'd love to connect with you on Linked In:
linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
https://www.linkedin.com/in/garinrouch

Transcript

00:00) Hi, welcome to the org dev podcast. So why do leadership teams say the future matters then never make time for it? And even when they do make time for it, the research shows these conversations are often the least effective ones they have. Dr. Stefan Kusker has dedicated extensive research to this critical issue.

(00:20) He has found that most leadership teams don't have a strategy problem, they have a time problem. Dr. Stefan is a professor, executive team coach, and organizational development consultant working at the intersection of strategy, leadership, and sustainability. He is professor of strategy and leadership and OD consultant at the Halt International Business School.

(00:39) He's highly experienced consultant with a background of senior leadership roles in businesses such as Accenture and BP. He also works with executive education programs in the areas of strategic leadership, sustainability, OD, and collaborative innovation. And in his consulting work, Stefan works with leadership teams in the areas of strategic transformation, system change, and top team effectiveness, which is fascinating areas.

(01:03) Somehow he finds time to also be a non-executive director on purpose. And this is a nonprofit which developed leaders who can change the world through the work they do and the lives that they lead. And we're actually honored that Stephan has made time for us and joined us today. Stephanie is actually based in Madrid.

(01:16) And you're dialing in from from sunny Spain today, aren't you? >> That is nice to be here. Thanks for inviting me. >> Brilliant. Well, welcome Stephanie. We're so glad to have you join us. >> We're really glad to have you with us and we've enjoyed kind of looking at the work that you've done and reading some of the the research you've been doing.

(01:43) So, we've got lots of questions. I think it's going to be a really good conversation. So, just to kick us off, can you just tell us a bit about the work that you do? What what's your current focus? Well, at some level I as a general um perspective, I just do enabling systems change. But if I had a specialization is supporting top teams lead or enable their own strategic change in their organizations.

(02:04) So I combine strategy and change on one hand with executive team coaching and bring it together. Uh because I found that most of the things that enable constrained strategic change journeys is often how the leadership team work together. It's not the only thing but it's a critical thing in the success of organizational change.

(02:25) Uh and that uh generally is either large corporates um whether it's a global financial services or bank or uh a large scandinavian manufacturing company but also uh central government public service NATO. So I'm just basically on both sides the public and the the private within kind of my consulting work. That's what I focus on. In my spare time, as you say, I'm interested in I also collaborate with York University on transformative systems change with your own phases, which is far more at a kind of regenerative practice and place-based

(02:58) ecoentric work often looking how communities become more regenerative and the systems change around that. So, I that's that's what I do in my day job. >> Fabulous. And I think one of the things when I was reading your research that stood out was that one of the phrases you used that you said strategy is what you talk about not just what you decide.

(03:16) So I thought that was really powerful. Can you just expand on that a little bit for us and just kind of unpack it for the audience? >> Yes. Well, I think it's one of those phrases that keeps following me around because it's it makes sense from lots of different perspectives. So what I found was that um as as a strategy consultant back when I was started my uh work in I found that most of the strategic questions that people should inquire around within the organization at least from my point of view were very

(03:43) difficult to find spaces to talk about and almost like the more important they were strategically sometimes the harder it was to find space to talk about it and then I kind of through studying and doing a masters in organizational change and and entered the world are actually the the stories we And the conversations we have shape the worlds that we create.

(04:03) And um OD training often was around actually we um the conversations we have enable the organizational change that we would like to have. And it I think it's um and there's this kind of frame of organizations change one conversation at a time. Uh helps take this dialogical OD and put it into practice.

(04:24) And so I spend most of my research and practice work really focusing on where are these conversations happening and what's the quality of those conversations and how do we enable more impactful conversations in critical areas. >> And you use the three horizons framework in your work which which some people may not be they might have an idea or not have an idea.

(04:43) So can you just explain what that is and then how you use it? Well, it started off with this global financial services company where they were saying, "We're all aligned on the future vision. We're just too busy to deliver it." And so, basically, they had a vision. They had their short-term operating priorities, but they didn't really have a pathway to connect the two uh that they had clarity on as a shared team.

(05:09) And so I'd done some three horizons work with uh some other projects around uh systems change and brought it in as a framework for them to really get clear on horizon one what are my core concerns in my current way of operating horizon three which is my future aspirations for how I'd like the organization to be operating in the future and some um and then horizon two is what are the key critical initiatives um that form a pathway to take me towards that shared vision.

(05:37) And horizon 2 conversations are really challenging because it's often around what enables these strategic initiatives to become successful when we're in a really busy organization when lots of the time resources are maintaining the existing way of operating. And so just that's the three horizon framework.

(05:57) It's from Bill Sharp. It comes from I think originally the international futures form and then they've got a three horizon university. There's lots of wonderful podcasts and books and videos on it, but I've just found it a really helpful tool to link strategy and OD because it's not a linear time tool. Uh, and it and it enables you to really see which conversations are happening well and which ones the client needs help with.

(06:22) >> Yeah. And you you talk about using it as a mirror, don't you, for for holding up a mirror. >> That was a bit by accident. So we were we were with this financial services French company working on the horizon 2 because they said their three was all fine and what we realized that the the framework the three lenses was a powerful mirror on how the team dynamics and the team functioning was was um so it was a bit by accident in a way and we found that they had lots of trust to work well in horizon one conversations

(06:51) and dashboards and information but actually there were lots of difficulties and relational tensions in horizon horizon 3 and two that they weren't quite able to have the conversation. And so it introduced this idea that actually we can have different levels in trust in different horizons that we can have different quality of conversations in different horizons.

(07:13) And it provided a lens almost like an acupuncture point into where what was enabling and constraining the team get aligned in across all horizons and how they needed to collaborate across all horizons or change how they were collaborating to have greater impact in the organization. So it was almost like a mirror on the underlying power and relational dynamics that were constraining the change they wanted to bring about.

(07:39) Well, lots to unpack there. And do you see a and which we will do I think as we go through the conversation and do you see a pattern in kind of how much time top teams are spending in those three horizons is there looking at the research. >> We kicked off a research project afterwards to look into that question. Uh so we we work with eight uh executive teams and then checked our results with over 150 executives afterwards as a validation exercise.

(08:05) And the strangely the average is that executive teams that's the top team of an organization would like to shift 30% or more of their time from horizon 1 to horizon 2 or three. So there's a 30% time allocation shift required. That's in the research. When I worked with teams it starts off at 30 and then actually they realize that they need to spend even more.

(08:27) But actually it's quite frightening to think about that. And then the other thing that came out in the research was that nearly all teams, most teams perceive themselves as being highly effective in horizon 1, uh less effective in horizon 3. So that's not as below the me kind of average score and considerably less effective in horizon 2.

(08:50) Horizon 2 are the conversations around what's enabling and constraining this strategic transformative initiative. mobilize at pace or uh deliver at pace and those conversations they really struggled to have well um which was quite an eye openener for it was a mirror effect for them the client and for for me as a consultant.

(09:10) Yeah, Stephan, it's so fascinating and it's provoked a lot of discussion between Danny and I um in the last few days because I think one of the things we really appreciate the way you've explained the work and we'd really encourage people to read your papers is the precision you bring to it. You know, the fact that you know people can be very deliberate about when they're having certain types of conversations.

(09:28) You mentioned about horizon 2, you know, that that middle state between the now and the and the and the future was like the messy middle. You talked about relational tensions. What are some of those relational tensions that come up in in in Horizon 2 that makes it such a tricky and difficult time? >> Well, can come up with examples? No, that's always the best.

(09:48) So, um, one client we've been working with for over um, two years now is that they're moving from a product centered organization where they're selling products uh, to customers and with the rise of AI, data enabled services, uh, sustainability etc. They're needing to shift their offering towards much more of a service offering and they're targeting customers that are much more senior.

(10:10) They're not at the procurement manufacturing level but at much more of a sea street senior leadership. And so in that transformation product to services there's a shift in power from not just the product uh uh development area to marketing but also I would say almost from sales to marketing and strategy if that makes sense.

(10:32) And so and there's a different type of sales person required to sell services into senior leadership as to sell more engineering products into procurement or manufacturing. Um and so that is a to that shift from product services in a way is becoming much more customercentric and a different customer. So there's always in these strategic change some shift in power that is going on that is difficult to talk about and issues of is that purpose is that really who we're becoming uh what are the capabilities we need in that new way of operating that

(11:08) new operating model. Um and if we start to take that lens, where do we allocate resource in there's a big function over here and a little function over here and we need these new capabilities and we recruit somebody from uh I don't know from Amazon and they come with their marketing expertise and they go well why are we spending marketing on a product that we're actually not growing that's been there for a while why don't we spend all our money on the new one and so so at some level you can say well there's an LD approach which is who

(11:39) create all these wonderful capabilities on transformation and strategy and change. But at the heart of it, when you bring the real life case of the organization, many of the key things that enable the transformation in the organizational change come back down to unsurprisingly the relational dynamics between the team um the power dynamics, the being able to host a conversation around what that means for me in my role.

(12:07) uh what that means for me in the team um am I an appropriate CEO for this new organization um on all those dynamics uh are the underlying tensions that are below in the iceberg model that somehow we need to create a space to help them with that's what I meant >> yeah well again it just shows you why that horizon one is just so seductive to stay in isn't it >> yes >> it's so concrete and you know you're going into the domain of winners and losers and identity and all sorts of different things as well aren't Yeah.

(12:36) >> Yes. Or or perceived losers. Um and also um it's not just if you take individuals, it's the whole system which is what was one of the key findings um both with clients and in the research is that we tend to focus on individuals but it's also the strategy processes and organizational performance management processes that keep the focus on horizon one.

(13:01) It's also the HR and organizational development processes because we promote people from big P&Ls and the big P&Ls are traditionally the the business model that we're transforming to the high-risk new businesses is a lot harder to get promoted from that with smaller P&Ls. It's a risk. So how we reward and promote and often is a critical enabler of transformation and many cases in the research were people that had been promoted. one of the CEOs of a bank.

(13:28) He'd been promoted from operations. He loved relational banking. He was very comfortable in the relational banking operations space. He was less comfortable in uh kind of the bank is increasingly an AI automated space. Um and he didn't have many of the technological capabilities or vision including the regulator.

(13:50) But many of his team were concerned about whether he was the right person to lead. and those tensions play out and it was only once he was able to talk about it and share with the team and have the confidence that actually they started collaborating far better as a team >> uh and and and he was able to navigate and lead the team through it well.

(14:08) >> Yeah. And I think the other thing that was occurring to me as you were talking quite often when we're we're working with organizations or they're thinking about transformation they'll bring in somebody external to lead the transformation. >> Yes. expecting that to be the kind of silver the silver bullet that's going to well we we've not been able to really kind of lock into the transformation.

(14:26) We'll bring in somebody external expecting that to be the thing that unlocks it but actually all of those systems and processes and the kind of enabling constraints are still there. It's just a different kind of actor. So >> and I think it's there are a few more extra dimensions to that is that um if we knew exactly the final end state and we want to implement a new SAP system >> then in some ways it's a more of a linear approach and you can ask somebody in the function to deliver it and when it comes to more strategic change or

(14:58) trans or organizational transformation it requires the leadership team to collaborate as a team on crossf functional initiative. ives not just focused down on their individual functions and that is an identity shift. So you're not just a head of sales, you're a head of sales and playing a part of the organizational transformation.

(15:22) Um, and that's a really difficult shift and it's a dynamic one because you need to keep learning and adapting and you need to the teams that delivered the transformations really well in the research were the ones that built this team learning dynamic team learning processes where they collectively learn learned about how they needed to adapt their roles and their responsibilities along the journey um rather than just appoint one person to really deliver on one project.

(15:46) One of the things you talk about um in the paper you shared with us is uh often the go-to tool to try and build this capability or the you know the appetite to do it is the usual suspects coaching maybe team away days those kind of things. >> What has your research and what has your own fieldwork actually shown you that is is sort of an accelerator of building that capability? Well, I guess the reason why traditional team coaching doesn't work is that um it's largely a structural problem as in it's money things that are maintaining and locking

(16:19) the team in at the in the temple trap of horizon one. Now, you could say with enough team coaching, they could gradually work on it. But I think there's something really powerful if you can help the team see very quickly how theru how they are trapped in a structural problem and how they need to collaborate to get out of it.

(16:42) Um and I and often by splitting I'm just doing the team coaching on the relational side away from the strategic organizational side. You don't get the conversation between the two. Um so that's why I think actually it's really powerful to combine team coaching with organizational transformation coaching. >> One of the things we'd love you to bring to life is you talk about um there being six conditions for systems change.

(17:07) Um are you able just to shed a little bit more light on that in terms of you know what those conditions need to be and and how organizations need to approach it? >> Yeah, I think you're referring to a systems change models waters of systems change um that I'm pinched and used. I think it comes from Zena and and team.

(17:24) So what I found is that when when using the three horizons to explore what's enabling constraining change in each of the horizons, we generally end up with a number of things that come out that fit quite nicely onto that model. There's the kind of more structural pieces at the top which are around we've got a new policy or a new strategy to um or an a new process or a new reward system.

(17:48) But that's all kind of um inputting stuff into the existing operating system. But many organizations are realizing that their their existing operating system doesn't work for the new world that's arriving um or it doesn't work to enable them in their transformation and they need to shift that operating system.

(18:09) And then lots of the enablers and constrainers are the things that release the potential for change tend to fall into the three things in the bottom of the pyramid which is relational relationships and relational dynamics. Often an organizational change will require new and different relationships often outside the organization but also new relationships within the organization and so relationship robustness and engagement on the journey is a critical enabler.

(18:38) The second piece is and is the power getting really clear from a systems point of view and and sometimes even doing simple things like uh the drawing out the systems on a page collectively with different stakeholders allowed where is the power shifts where is the where do we need to redistribute power as the senior team and help the power be redistributed to enable the innovation or the change.

(19:02) So power is a is the second one. And then the last one is mental models. Uh and mental models is one of those overused words. Um but it's still really helpful to say what are some of our assumptions about how we can deliver this change that need to be challenged and what are some of the ways that our counterparties and I am perceiving this challenge that need to to be questioned and who can really provide a fresh perspective on on that.

(19:27) And so how as a leader we host spaces for mental model shifts uh is really important because it's often a participative non-efficient conversation and so actually prioritizing it is really important. So that model is just a helpful model for senior teams to work out what conversation am I trying to host and how do I design a conversation that allows me to get into relationship power mentor models or how do I design a conversation or host convene a conversation that is much more structural much more about policies and

(19:55) practices and procedures. >> I was going to say just unpacking horizon 2 a bit more. We've talked about how difficult some of those conversations might be because they're they're talking about power and identity and shifts. How as OD practitioners can we help senior teams surface those tensions that doesn't automatically trigger kind of defensiveness or kind of shut down because you we're treading on difficult territory aren't we with with those those teams.

(20:20) What advice have you got for practitioners kind of facing that and thinking okay how do I navigate this? Well, it sounds really simple, but having a shared language to talk about it is really important because I think one of the if every if your dominant culture is horizon one framed, you need another language to talk about horizon 2 and three.

(20:38) >> Um, and then get helping them inquire all my answers to your questions of what would I recommend is it's comes back to dancing in the systems. There is no magic bullet. If I step back, you need to start and develop a relationship with the client. start practicing small, develop a shared language and then uh prototype and try others.

(21:00) Um and so that's the dance. But some of the things on the dance that are helpful are get helping them inquire into how do you what are the sort of the what how do we host a good conversation around Horizon 2? What do they see as some of the dynamics of relationships and power and trusts that are playing out here? then to practice hosting it and then to reflect and learn well was did that work well did that not work well how could we do it differently what are some of the issues that maybe I can prepare beforehand that would make it work do we

(21:30) even have the right participants in and so for example I often quite use um I'll get a leadership team to saying well if you want to explore this project who are some of your inquiry buddies in the whole project so get them to find a buddy >> um that provides a fresh perspective and then bring the buddy to the meeting and and I remember with the the banking project um we were using some Lego series play and the buddy for the CEO wanted to you know I said well is the CEO on your model and he goes no sort of goes off and he finds a lion and a

(22:07) chicken and he puts the lion and the chicken on it and the CEO goes why why am I a lion chicken and goes well in the bank you're like a lion but when the regulator comes you're like a chicken And actually, if we're going to if we're going to actually be proactive and direct and and not just on the defense and invest in something which would allow us to really move forward, we need to turn that chicken into a bit more of a lion and that lion into a bit more of a chicken.

(22:34) Now it sounds but the buddy and the perspective and the way that there was enough play and trust allowed for some of the fundamental issues of relationships and power because you can see even in that story you've got the relationship with the regulator and the CEO the CEO and the people in the uh in the team um and you've you've created a space where you can actually start to talk about it and some of those interactions are the most transformational and you can't plan them or prepare them. They're emergent.

(23:00) >> Yeah. It's it's fascinating, isn't it? Because I we totally agree, you know, after I think this is episode 103 that we've recorded. So, um and I think definitely if we had to say one of the mantras, it's it depends, doesn't it? It there is a dance in any system. >> I guess one of the things I'm sort of curious about is how do you contract and get informed consent to engage because this is senior team like you like you to have their time is very precious, isn't it? And obviously you can't predict what's going to happen and some of the

(23:30) feedback might be you know might be quite painful for a CEO to say I didn't see myself as a chicken and now I see it. How do you get that consent and who do you contract with to get to get that started to have those conversations? >> Um that's I would say an ongoing challenge um and there's no simple way in.

(23:51) I think all my clients have come through slightly different routes in um I would say the most common route is that you're doing a sort of uh senior leadership program of the seauite minus one and you invite the seauite in and then they build a relationship of trust. The trust needs to come from some joint activity.

(24:10) Um and they need to trust you on three things. One you you know your stuff from a kind of business perspective and strategic change perspective. you know your stuff from a team coaching perspective and as a human being they can trust you. Now how do you find the space to get that relationship? You just need a good excuse. So that good excuse can come from a leadership development program that they've sponsored.

(24:31) It can come from I've got a team coaching challenge and then you help them to say well actually you've got quite good trust in Horizon 1. how do we explore and but you've built the trusting relationships through team coaching and sometimes it happens through one-to-one coaching where you start as a one-to-one coach and then you move into team coaching so I don't think there's one routine I think there's different routs in there's a chemistry between you and the senior team you need a sponsor who's kind of CEO type level or on the executive team but I haven't

(25:01) found a clear easy way in but I could say just do that I still struggle with it actually >> yeah no we really appreciate that as Because you know like I said every system's different a lot of people that are be watching this will actually be internal as well. So we have lots of consultants a lot of people internal is this the exclusive domain of an external consult only can an external consultant come in and try and facilitate these kind of conversations or or can it be done from within or is it a partnership?

(25:25) >> It depends what we call it. So can internal consultants and heads of HR uh help leadership teams connect strategy and organization development use the three horizon framework to do that and start coaching the team lead strategic change then yes you can do it internally. Um is there an advantage to having an external person doing it? Uh yes.

(25:52) Uh what's that advantage is that it's a lot easier for us to name some of the power, trust and purpose and uh issues. Um uh both because if we've got the credibility of doing it in lots of other organizations, I think the senior team hear it differently, but also if we say something and we get kicked out, it's not the end of the world as much.

(26:14) So I think I I I take more risks when I'm external, but I also perceive executive teams listening to me different if I walk in with an external hat on. And I also think is that once you're out if you're if you've got one for outside the system, you can see the power dynamics easier than when you're in the system.

(26:34) >> So there's something about it's if you're a fish in a fishbowl, it's hard to see the power dynamics. As soon as you've got one foot out the fishbowl, it becomes a lot clearer. Um, so I don't think it's because um I'm different in any way. I just think it's easier if you've got one foot out of the system to see what's going on.

(26:53) I'm useless with my own family. Um, it's a lot, you know, it's a lot easier to spot everybody else's family, don't I? >> Amen to that. >> Hi, we're just pausing this interview for a moment. Have you ever finished an episode of the org dev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points? Us too, so we made one.

(27:17) It's called from pod to practice. And each week in our newsletter will share a two-page summary of the latest org dev episode. And it includes key takeaways, a reflection prompt, and one small action you can try. >> And it's all in a digital format with space at the end to add your own notes and reflections. And it's designed to help you take the learning from the podcast into your day-to-day work.

(27:36) So to get your copy, just sign up to our next step to better newsletter. The links in the show notes or you can visit our website at www.distinction.live to get the latest from pod to practice in your inbox. And let us know what you think. We'd love to get your feedback. >> So Stephanie, in one of your papers, you say that the biggest barrier to future making is rarely strategic intelligence.

(27:54) It's relational safety. Could could you just expand on that a little for us? Well, if I think about one client team, I remember an ongoing tension between the head of strategy that wanted to have some strategic decisions and Sarah technically the head of HR saying actually we need to be able to have robust conversations and important dialogue and they were both really right and but I guess the reason I we arrived at this conclusion that came out in the paper was that when you ask what enabled or constrained the big strategic

(28:26) insights and the big strategic uh shifts in the organization. It often came down to somebody taking a risk or investing time in building a robust enough relationship to bring different points of views in and leaders creating a safe enough space where different voices could be heard. And we often think that it's the same voices for Horizon 1, 2, and three, but often they're very different voices.

(28:54) And we make lots of assumptions about I remember one organization they assumed the CFO cuz he had a big motorbike. He wasn't that interested in sustainability. That's why he wasn't reporting it in the KPIs or financing the projects. But actually when they had the courage to have the conversation and what sort of future do you really care about? Um it and and that's not an easy conversation on an executive team to have and and and how would you like to leave this organization for your children or for the future generations? they suddenly

(29:23) realized that he was one of the most passionate supporters. He just didn't realize he could be or didn't think he had the capabilities to or um was worried he'd be have double standards because he couldn't live his life in a completely sustainable way that he wanted to. He was one of he wanted to be coherent.

(29:41) But once that conversation started to have, he was one of the best leaders in the group in in driving profitable new sustainable offerings. >> There's two threads I just want to pull out of that. Um the first one is that often the senior leadership team is quite static, isn't it? It's the usual suspects lined up, but like you saying, you have to be quite lightfooted for some of these conversations.

(30:03) So do you find that many sort of teams are kind of sort of anchored in the traditional people to have in there and it can be more difficult for them to be open to invite new members in or often once you get into it then they are quite open? >> Um it's slightly more it comes back to three horizons.

(30:17) I'm a bit of a hammer with a nail in that they're very good at getting different voices in in areas they're comfortable about like horizon one operations current delivery making sure sales currently work to get different voices in around the future when we explored in the research what what what's getting in the way of you hosting and collectively sensemaking with people that really understand the issues to governance on AI uh the practical future issues you need to address often And it's I'm not sure how do we do that and then make it

(30:48) practical. How do we do that and then um harvest the output so that we can communicate to the organization what that means for us and then take decisions around it. So we realized that there was a practice and and methodology in security and that what they'd found is that they'd either to do that well and to host that well they needed some support.

(31:10) So their traditional was I either get a consultant to do it then I don't do it but if I need to do it I need some help to do it and which is where the OD consultancy comes in as long as the OD consultancy has a depth of futures work and strategic foresight work to be able to facilitate it. So I would say um I the desire is there to do it.

(31:30) I think it's mainly a capability issue and also that the existing organization squeezes the time out to do it well. uh and so you need to it comes back to the structure systems challenge but once they do it well and have the confidence then I think the energy is released in the organization. But I think about the organizations that have released the the most potential for change is that they be the leadership team loves in the end hosting horizon 3 and horizon 2 type conversations and it because they realize that when you do it well it releases so much energy in the

(32:02) organization and in some ways they wish they'd learned it earlier. It's it's a strange thing. Um I think we we all stick to the conversations we're good at rather than learning to do different or conversations that we're we're less good at. >> It's these patterns, isn't it? And then just the second thing I just wanted to quickly was you said the term safe enough >> uh rather than safe.

(32:22) >> Yes. >> What's the what's the distinction between the two and why does that matter? Well, h one of my bug bears with psychological safety is that if you're going to add any value, you need to take a risk and that mo to disclose new worlds, new value, new relationships, new possibilities, that takes risk.

(32:41) Um and therefore, you don't want it safe because then if you're completely safe, you're not taking a risk. Does that make sense? So, we want to be able to develop a shared language where we can take a risk together and to uh and challenge each other and to be scared together and that's okay and we'll support each other through it which is not safe.

(33:01) It's safe enough to take that risk. Most of the important conversations in life are often fairly risky whether it's with your children, your partner, your parents and it's the same at work. So, one thing we always like to ask our guests is how did you end up working in this this weird and wonderful field that is organization development? What was your your path into it? >> It's one of those impossible questions, isn't it? Because um if I had to pick some moments that shaped me, I would say um one was when I started having

(33:31) children, I was at the same time that I was on one of these fast track development paths uh and had some coaching and I realized that I wasn't quite as emotionally and relationally uh intelligent as I thought I was. Um or life was a lot harder than I thought it needed to be. I got recommended by my wife to go and do an integral coaching course and I loved it and and it not just because it then gave me coaching conversation capabilities but I think it it helped me understand a lot more kind of philosophically what's going on in

(34:02) the world and I that for me was a individual development in some ways is the same as organizational societal development and seeing the links between the three and seeing how emotional relational spiritual cognitive all play in. Um that was a seed that continues to unfold. I would say I also did a masters in sustainability at Ashri which was an introduction to kind of enabling systems change and I think that's another seed that continues to unfold.

(34:32) Um and then I would say um my experience in BP trying to bring transformation within an oil and gas company which has very different world views and I realized then that most of the strategic conversations came down to the spaces that we can host difficult conversations and the power dynamics and I realized I had very little training or support or colleagues to work with and it was at a time I think where my third child was born and I spent a week in Astridge Gardens And I decided to leave a one world and and find a group of people which were in

(35:05) Astridge that were actually bringing OD strategy and sustainability together in a consulting practice. So I say a week with some trees and a baby was a critical moment. Um and then maybe other ones is finding a tribe of people that you can work with and learn from and and look after each other and take risks together as so yeah.

(35:27) So I'm I guess my practice is just a a reflection of a load of relationships >> and Ashidge as a place to study is obviously Halt now. What's that like as an learning environment? What is it? What does it specialize in? >> Well, I think Ashid has gone through quite a journey. I would say the reason I went there is it has a history in um taking I would say a enabling systems or living systems approach to coaching to organizational development to systems change as well as being an executive education offering and so I guess it's a

(35:58) it's a place where you can study masters and get accredited and etc. But it also has it has a consulting OD practice as well as its executive education practice. Um but when you first asked the question I remember when I first became an employee I I was speaking to a participant looking at the garden uh from China and I asked well why why have you come all the way to Ash and expecting to have a kind of living systems type response and he said the garden uh and when I ask most participants go the thing they like the most is the is

(36:33) walking in the garden or being in nature but I think it's um it comes back to time. I think people have a different relationship with time when they're at Ashri. Um there's the history of the place and I think a chance to to look at how they're leading from the perspective of nature's time, their life's time and what they really care about in the time that's left, I think is a key enabler of change.

(36:58) So I would say Astri is many things to many different people. >> What aspects of your work do you find most fulfilling or exciting and why? Um, at a really simple level, it's a kind of the bit that I enjoy the most is the people I work with, either clients or colleagues, cuz it's a we're living in a a time between worlds. And actually having people learning together and taking risks together and trying to with a shared kind of humanizing leadership type purpose I think is those relationships are what bring me a lots of joy. I think the creativity of trying

(37:33) new approaches uh finding unique journeys with different clients that fit them the the creativity side with a client I really enjoy and it's and also the space to learn and the space not to be to combine the scholarly not too busy way of being u where I can think and reflect and what do I really care about along with the practitioner being in organizations.

(37:58) So I think I I would struggle to go back to a just delivery only practitioner only. I quite like my scholarly practitioner way of being and and so I need to find systems I can hang out where that's allowed. >> Fabulous. And then on the flip flip side, what do you find most challenging about the work? >> I would say I regularly still get if the client's challenge is acceleration.

(38:20) Often they get accelerated and anxious. uh I notice I have I can regularly fall into that accelerated anxiety. So I would say an anxiety and acceleration is is a challenge that we have to contain for the clients but contain for ourselves and and I often kind of fall off balance and have to rebalance this creating a a slow enough way of being that there's quality and care with the practical need to come alongside a client meet their needs build the trust and so that balance I find really hard.

(38:53) I would say maybe going in and out of different worlds. So one of the values I bring is that I can learn from different worlds and and and share the learnings across different worlds. But you have to learn different languages, different approaches and be humble and practical in those different worlds and that's not always easy.

(39:13) So finding the right language often I find challenging. I would say there's increasingly increasingly finding the spaces to do the grieving and gratitude type work, the soulful work, the humanizing work. So finding the getting the balance between the what you want to support with and then the how that enables a certain amount of healing.

(39:35) So it's the garden effect, you know, even if you're working in a meeting in a boardroom, how do you build a sense of being that that people yearn to have more of that helps them find the courage and find themselves creating futures they care about? That's often a how question, not just a what question.

(39:52) And I find that's how do I I that's a challenge to keep bringing in. It's almost like the more it's needed, the harder you have to work to bring it in. And I I guess that's for me personally as well as for the client. Are there any when you look at the field are there any particular emerging topics or trends that are really interesting you or capturing your your attention at the moment? >> Well, it's what it's a combination of old and new >> if that makes sense because um so we're if we're in this accelerating AI fragmenting world order ecological

(40:20) disruption that's all putting pressure on client organizations that and there's new stuff that's really interesting is how do you find ways to engage people in futures when they're accelerated in the short term. there's new stuff around how do you develop more resilient operating models when people just want to shift the what and not actually get clear how they want to operate and um so there's the I would say the new bits of practice combined with the same old OD stuff that you need to weave in like develop robust

(40:49) relationships work out who your client is maintain in self as instrument reflexivity in service of the client um build trust and so it's the conversation between traditional OD and new needs that I think is a really interesting space. How do you help an executive team build trust in a post-trust digital AI world? >> So old competency of trust in OD new competency of new world.

(41:15) How do you shift the practice? How do you think about legitimacy in a team and now legitimacy in a institution that where your employees don't trust hierarchy anymore? All all I would say the what's the governance process and how does the governance of an organization need to shift and the team practices need to shift with this new world.

(41:33) All these things are really hard uh and it's what attracts me is how you apply the core OD skills to those new challenges. >> Just want to put sorry just to pull in a thread there. You talked about selfless instrument and that has been a recurring theme that's come up during the conversations and particularly in the work that you do because you know those those horizon 2 conversations strategy is anxiety isn't it because you're making tough choices tough tradeoffs.

(41:59) You >> you're going to disappoint a lot of people with the choices that you make. And that selfish instrument is so important, isn't it? Because we always have to be mindful of what's being projected onto us in terms of emotions that others are feeling. But we also have our own emotions, too. And I guess one of the concerns that we have is that there's a lot of people coming into OD which is great but they're not necessarily doing the selfless instrument work you mean that kind of sort of self-awareness. If if someone is

(42:24) sort of entering the work what what tips would you have for people to sort of make sure that they've got that awareness or you know they feel resourced enough to to be in that place where those difficult conversations can happen. >> Three things. First is do some program that has some form of first person inquiry in or actionbased inquiry where you have to kind of reflect on how you what's going on for you inside write about it reflect about it with others.

(42:50) So we call that inquiry work. There are loads of programs where you can where that is kind of a core part of the program. So learning using self as instrument inquiry would be one. Uh, two is work with people that do it and I can call you out when you don't do it. I'm I'm still a kind of block. If it gets too tough, I block it like everybody else.

(43:15) But it's nice if your buddy says you're doing it again what was really going on. And so you need to work with somebody who can call you out and help you. And then you even try and bring it in, help the get the client coach you as you're doing it if you can build the trust. Um, so have the confidence to bring it in. But most of the wisdom comes from from that.

(43:34) It's just um having the practice and it's not easy. It's not like um I've learned to ride a bike that can ride a bike. Often it's really difficult work. It's messy work. So yeah, I would say go for it. Go for it. >> Well, I think it's really encouraging, isn't it? Because someone who you know is entering and looking this Stephan's so accomplished. He's so experienced.

(43:50) He's got all the qualifications. He's he's been out there. But it is still, you know, all experienced consultants still have this don't when we're out there when we're in that kind of moment where change is just happening and there's a lot going on. Isn't there any particular time? It it never ends the work, does it? >> Um, no.

(44:07) And it never ends because it's maybe you get better at spotting your patterns again, but that doesn't mean your patterns don't go away, if that makes sense. You just get better at accepting them and working with them. Um, and maybe better at helping other people work with you. So, yes. So, I think it's just like it's a life thing. It's an it's an ongoing practice.

(44:25) But I guess as time goes on, you become you realize more more how important it is. and those that do it and those that don't do it. And I think it's also a fundamental leadership practice, not just an OD practice. Uh I often think OD is when I did an MBA ages ago, it kind of we had a remember accounting wasn't just for finance, it was for all leaders, you know, and then I was thinking well afterward as well coaching shouldn't just be for coaches, it should be for all leaders.

(44:53) And when I joined Astridge, I was thinking, well, this OD stuff shouldn't be just for OD practitioners, it should be for all leaders. Uh, and so there's a part of me that kind of goes, OD is just good leadership stuff and and using self as inquiry for me is like the core of good leadership. >> For those listening on audio, you probably can't hear that me and Danny are just wait nodding our heads profusely.

(45:13) >> Really agree. >> You're you're defining something so wonderfully that I think people really need to hear and I think it'll encourage a lot of people, won't it? Don't you? >> Absolutely. If I was doing a kind of high potential evaluation or get ready for senior leadership, the number one skill for moving up into top leadership is using self as inquir if I had to just pick one.

(45:34) >> When you look, that's a big question, but well hopefully distill it. When you look back at your career, what are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned so far that you take forward into the work that you do? >> That is a big question. Um well in in no particular order I was thinking um we've talked about the using self as inquiry and the fact that I fall off the bike of that regularly and and try and get back on.

(45:57) I would say another one was I often found OD didn't overtly claim his expertise in strategy and connecting strategy to to organizational change. So so one of my big learnings was actually good OD is also being good at strategy or working with people there. So you can do strategy from an OD perspective and actually connecting strategy and change is part of your OD practice is fundamental.

(46:23) Um connecting the what and the how. Um maybe another one is that uh and that's me personally is that I got fascinated by time both how leaders work with time and their relationship to time and what they create time for and what leaders care about is also what time they create for certain types of conversations but it's the same at organizations and a society.

(46:43) I think we're in a in a time between worlds at the moment where the old way of operating in many organizations doesn't fit the world we're living in and that a new way is not quite emerging yet. And so I think one of my learnings is is how time is a wonderful guide and our relationship to time is a wonderful guide for OD practition for myself and OD practitioners.

(47:09) Um maybe a third one is the is to to create to be robust around um who you work with and finding your tribe of people to work with and defending working in pairs and also even just like uh your action learning set or supervision to spot patterns. often the the most impactful interventions came from a robust conversation with a colleague or supervisor that challenged my way of looking at things and how I was colluding or not colluding in the system.

(47:41) Um so I guess my confidence in that developing your tribe and your supervision and your uh container for your work in the systems is really important. I think anything else that I've learned. Ah, my last one. If I had to ask my I asked my one of my main clients, the HR director of a global manufacturing company, I what would be the one thing that I haven't done so well that I should do better? And it seems to follow me around.

(48:07) So, it's it's not the first time I've got the feedback. Um, and so it is that I don't always come alongside the client in in the way that they would necessarily want. And I when I inquired as to why it's I get so excited about where they could be going that sometimes I underestimate um where they actually are, how much support or change they need to get going.

(48:34) Uh I tend to be in ironically I tend to be in a rush and maybe don't accept where they actually are. So I still need to um I yeah so I know cognitively that I need to come alongside a client. Um but I keep bumping into the same learning journey even at 50 of accepting where am I and where are they and and what is a what's a good enough next step that is that so that I can accompany them well rather than running off ahead.

(49:00) >> That's brilliant wisdom, isn't it? It's something conversation that Danny and I are constantly having to remind each other of and I love what you were saying there in terms of working in pairs because we work in pairs probably 90% of the time. >> Yeah. >> And and the client always be two of you really why at the end of it they're like oh >> cuz they're like it's a two person job.

(49:20) >> But it is though, isn't it? Because there's so much going on. There's process, there's content, there's unexpected things happening, there's the uncertainty. It's it's it's as much for um uh to keep keep it on the track as anything, isn't it? >> But well, I would say most of the big shifts come from robustness of relationship don't come from me being right on my own.

(49:41) >> And so you almost need the processing in the relationship either with the client or with your body to and it's that processing of it that the insight comes out of. If I did it on my own, I wouldn't get it. and it and also to take a risk, you need to be held in relationship both with the client and your buddy.

(50:00) Um there so there are 101 reasons why I'm just getting excited and agreeing with you. >> I think there's a book in h for this. Brilliant. Um you you obviously clearly you're extremely qualified and accomplished in your field, but what do you do to keep learning and evolving in your field? You know, are there any practices or habits that you found particularly useful? Well, I would say I I follow where what I find myself caring about or have energy for and I try and balance that with what am I fearful of the pinch points the my shadow side. So

(50:32) I would say balancing shadow work with energy uh work and and trusting that those take you to things that add value. I would say there's about I think we're living in a accelerated knowledge addicted world where we kind of searching for more resources and I and I I think resources and knowledge are helpful but practice is probably more helpful and so I don't necessarily do this well but I try and balance devouring resources with walking in nature with finding um friends to have conversations about our work with going

(51:13) for walks with clients and reflecting on our work. Um, and so I would say finding tribe and finding practices and uh that actually feel regenerative and learningful and balancing that with devouring more resources and knowledge and and social media and books. That's I would I recommend. And then you're saying what's my practice of developing myself? Well, I I've been fairly I've gone on courses to courses if that makes sense.

(51:46) I I did a masters and another masters and then a doctorate. So, I think there vehicles and a coaching courses. So, vehicles and containers for learning are helpful especially if you're busy. Um but I guess I've balanced that with with learning through relationships, finding relationships where there's difference and different practices and then learning from each other.

(52:04) >> Brilliant. And just coming back to resources, are there any particular books or podcasts that you'd you you'd encourage other people to to look at and and read or watch? >> Well, I guess I'm interested in what's going on in the world. So, I find like a Nate Hagens type podcast that in that connects the different crises and how they're connected together and taking a whole system view.

(52:26) >> So, I would say my um I would go big and then deep personal. So I would say make sure you understand why we're in a time between worlds and understand how a poly the crisis are connected and why we have a debt problem, an economic problem, eological problem and an organizational problem.

(52:48) See the connections between the things and then Hagen's type podcast can be helpful. I would also say uh find p find podcasts that talk about individual practices um whether it's psychology or um and then and and books um that that are meaningful. I would there's a certain amount of I like a certain amount of philosophy and understanding not just psychology.

(53:13) So I think we tend to always go to the psychology and I would say something that even like uh Rulka's letter um or um find your own way into philosophy in a nice way would probably be helpful in this time we're living in. Um and then if I had to pick resources that are an easy way into systems change I always end up recommending um Cahain's books >> just because they're easy to understand or easier.

(53:42) they point you to a field of work. Um, and they take a whole system of view to practice. Um, and then the OD network, whether it's OD in Europe or ODN global, uh, there's lots of places to go for more, I would say, traditional OD. >> Um, one of the original missions of the podcast is to inspire the next generation of organization development practitioners, whether they're internal, external.

(54:06) You've talked about this being a accelerated knowledge world that we're in as well. like what what advice would you give someone who is just getting started or is is wondering there has to be another way? Oh um well I got confused early on I think thinking OD was a profession and a particular job. Uh and in some ways it is but it's also just a way of thinking about change and it's a um so I would say uh find the roles where people are open to talking about change in a participative um humanled way where you can have conversations for change. So often you

(54:43) can get the best OD roles don't come along with an OD tag. Um and so my first advice would be find interesting roles where you can learn by doing. I would say there's some brilliant courses out there whether it's coaching or OD or systems change or art of hosting or find your way into systems change in a way that's practical to your role.

(55:07) Um, and ask people who inspire you, who how they learn and uh, so build your tribe, I would probably say. But part of your question, your question feels like making sense of the time we're living in cuz I think there's a OD 20 years ago feels different than OD now. I think people are much more many more people are realizing that the the world we're living in is changing that many of the ways of looking at things no longer work but there isn't a new way of exactly what how we do this so I would probably also say find your place-based community

(55:42) find what gives you regenerative energy um Daniel Val's book on uh living systems and regenerative cultures is a good introduction to regenerative systems change um so I would say don't necessar necessarily think OD is different from regenerative systems change. Uh connect the two and don't assume adults and old bold people on podcasts have all the answers.

(56:04) I think we need we need a conversation across generations to address the time we're in. Um so I would encourage them. I think we need youngsters to help us navigate the next eras we're going to work in in as OD practitioners. >> Brilliant. Well, Stephan, I want to say a huge thank you. This has been such a brilliant conversation.

(56:23) and you managed to combine expertise, you know, depth of knowledge, field experience, real position to the work, but also really wonderful humility as well, which is a really nice combination. Um, Danny, what are you taking away from the conversation? I think it's hard to do it justice in a few points. But I think I've I've really enjoyed um unpacking the three horizons model and you know reframing that not as a planning tool but as a a mirror and a lens that that teams can look at to think about the conversations they're having the

(56:51) importance of shared language. Um I also really enjoyed the idea that we the importance of inviting others into conversations particularly around Horizon 2 and Horizon 3 um and being more open to that. >> Brilliant. um ditter all of those. Um I guess there was something that you said in one of your papers that I just loved and I think that kind of sort of sums up which is your legacy is written in the conversations you create and I think that's like you know that doing it with intention and mindfulness and the fact

(57:16) that you can assess and audit where your team is and there's ways and means of doing it but you need to do the dance within that system to to make it bring it to life as well. Um Stephan it's been a really wonderful conversation. If people want to follow your work, if they want to read your papers, if they want to learn more about Halt, what's the best way for people to reach out to you? >> I suppose on LinkedIn, just send me an email.

(57:38) I'm not very good at getting web pages sorted out. Um, so just uh connect on LinkedIn, email me, and I'd be happy to respond and share work. And one day I'll get a a web page out and uh have a way of doing it properly. But but please feel free to reach out. >> Brilliant. Well, well, thank you so much. Um, if you are watching this and you're one of the people in 109 different countries now that are watching this podcast and you think, do you know what? I know someone that could really do with um, Stefan's insights, then please feel free to share the

(58:09) podcast. We have so many shares each week for people that are sharing it to people in their network that can appreciate u this insight as well. And also, if you could hit the like button and subscribe, the more subscribers we have, the more people that really accomplish people like Stephan that will say yes to coming on the podcast as well.

(58:25) But most of all, we want to say a huge thank you, Stephan. We know you're intensely busy. Uh you you make such brilliant time for us and also answering our questions in depth as well. So thank you. >> Thank you. Enjoyed the conversation. >> Fabulous. Thank you. Heat. Heat.