Essential Guide to High Growth and Strategy with Rupert Morrison - OrgDev Epsiode 91

Strategy is one of the most overused words in organisational life – and one of the least well understood. In this conversation with Rupert Morrison, we explore what strategy actually means, who really owns it, and why so many organisations struggle not with ambition, but with focus. We talk about why strategies so often turn into shopping lists, why prioritisation is harder than it looks, and how pace, culture, and execution collide once a strategy meets the real world. It’s a practical, grounded discussion about making strategy simpler, sharper, and genuinely useful – without pretending the work itself is simple.

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Transcript

(00:00) Hi and welcome to the org dev podcast. So does strategy shape structure or does structure shape strategy? It's a classic debate, but in practice most organizations struggle to align the two and end up with a structure that drags against the strategy or a strategy that ignores how the organization really works.
(00:21) Today's guest is the pioneering Robert Morrison who has spent his career helping organizations close that gap with data clarity and precision. Now, Rupert is the most requested guest by our own podcast guests, which tells you just how much esteem he's held in across the organization design and development world.
(00:40) As the founder of Org View and Arai and author of the groundbreaking books such as datadriven organization design and strategic value creation, Rert has helped leaders around the world rethink how they connect people, strategy, and structure. Rbert is described as an entrepreneur, economist, and visionary. and he started life on a sheep station in New Zealand and began his career in management consultant focusing on supply chain organization design and transformation where he worked with many of the world's largest companies in multiple sectors. This led
(01:06) him to found his own software solutions company, Concentra Analytics, in 2008. And the rest is history, launching org view, an organization design planning platform, which became one of the fastest growing tech companies in the UK, securing $62 million in funding. And it I've seen actual org designers get gooeyed describing org view and how much has actually changed their world.
(01:30) After the global success of org view, he wanted to take on his next challenge, strategy. So he founded Arai with John Andrew while still remaining on the board of Concentra. Arahi is a platform to help organizations design, execute and track strategy. He's married with three sons in London. He's a rugby fanatic and an iron man competitor and he's never happier than when he's on the rugby field coaching his three kids.
(01:52) So Robert, you're an intensely busy man. You're going away on holiday on Friday and you've made time for us. So thank you so much for joining us today. Yeah, we're really glad to have you with us and we've thoroughly enjoyed your books. Highly recommend them. Yeah. >> Amazing. >> That's my that's my process for reading and then coming to to a podcast.
(02:18) Lots of lots of Post-it notes. So, >> makes it all worthwhile. When you write a book, you half the time you think, is anyone actually going to read this? So, it's it to even have one person read it is is just a great thing. So, no. Thank you. >> Oh, fun. I think there's lots we could talk to.
(02:32) We've got so many so many things we could talk about and so many questions it prompted for us but I thought if we start with the strategy space just to kick us off kind of that word strategy gets used a lot you know and you talked to a lot of people a lot of people have got different definitions and different meanings it might have lost its way a little bit what's your definition how do you define strategy >> so strategyy's totally lost its way it it's used everyday vernacular uh and has become meaningless so people say um let's have a strategic conversation and
(02:59) do um strategic planning which is a misnomer and then you know this is a strategic um conversation around the strategic topic um oh that was a strategic so it's just used and so it's lost all um meaning really and it has almost no meaning in most businesses >> so so one of the main reasons for focusing on on strategy and we will get to um definition in in a second but an answer some at least some of your questions.
(03:32) But a big reason for getting into it is when I was doing or design, the first question you ask is what's your strategy? Because you can't design an organization without a strategy. And pretty much every time, no one has a strategy. They just have a list of aspirations. So, it's useful to define what strategy isn't first. >> Um, it isn't I want to be number one in this market. It isn't a goal.
(03:57) Um, it isn't a plan. It isn't a set of steps. we do X and then Y and then zed. Uh it's it's an integrated system that is is actually very outward facing. So I there's there's a there's a diff definition from Martin um the simplest definition is um where to compete and how to win. So where are you competing which market against in which segments? Uh what is it that you're doing? What value are you creating that is so unique versus the competition that you win in in a marketplace? Um includes other aspects in in in my definition around
(04:37) what is the not just the purpose and and and in in this day and age people are very good at doubling down on purpose and cynics you know start with why. There's also what is the ambition and and and what is very common is the ambition isn't actually stated. So in in private equity backed businesses often it is stated but in many organizations it's not.
(05:04) And so you find stakeholders and board members tearing themselves apart because they have their own definition of ambition. So it has to include ambition. It has to include the set of capabilities and it's what Michael Porter calls the activity system. How how do you configure your operating model and your so just forget organization design but what are the key capabilities what are the key procedures and KPIs and things the integrated system that you need that makes you unique and differentiated for a strategy to be good it has to be longlasting and
(05:36) therefore you have to have barriers to to others and moes is a is a common phrase but in this as well something that's often forgotten is the economic engine um so Jim Collins um and good Craig talks about the economic engine or the cash. How does a business generate cash? You need so you need to be clear about how you make money and and and the economics and the economic engine but but often and and Richard Rumwood who's who's one of my favorite authors on strategy.
(06:02) you wrote good strategy, bad strategy. He he talks about the crux and this is probably the thing I struggle the most with like what is the key challenge that you're trying that you need to overcome of often actually it's it's around what segment that you choose to prioritize on. Um so but in some cas you're looking to to shoot for.
(06:24) So what is the key thing that challenge you need to overcome? So, you know, so those are it's it's a set of building blocks. Um, you know, I I'm not going to read out my definition of the strategy. I think it's easier to read it, but it's it's it's got eight elements in it. >> I have an acronym um for each of those called PACtac.
(06:45) I I won't bore people with trying to remember another acronym that I've invented, but it's it's those are the key elements. Um, and what you often see is critical parts of those elements are missing when people define a strategy. And what you very often see is someone creates a plan saying we need to do A, B, C in a spreadsheet.
(07:05) So there's a financial forecast and they call that a plan and that is not strategy. So I think it's really important to understand what it isn't and and and kind of what it is. >> I think I really enjoyed the part in the book where you talk about spreadsheet strategists and kind of >> Yeah.
(07:20) And I've I've been in situations like that where there's been a spreadsheet and it kind of creates this illusion of certainty, doesn't it? It's like we've got a spreadsheet, the numbers add up. That's great. Off we go. >> Yeah. We just have to do that then. >> Yeah. >> It was only so easy. >> Yeah. Well, you can make the numbers add up to whatever you like, can't you? It's like, >> yeah, happy days.
(07:37) What's your hypothesis about, you know, that definition of really understanding those building blocks of strategy? Why are organizations struggling with this? What what's under what's going on? I I think there's a lack of disciplined thought and I think people are not prepared to sit back and think. I think there's also committees often make bad strategists.
(07:59) Yeah. And trying to get a group of people with different uh motivations and goals to come up with something. It all also ends up in sort of vanilla. It's like written by committee and and and so there there's a set of challenges and and actually creating a strategy that's it's genuinely unique and differentiated.
(08:21) I I I think to create something as well, Peter Teal talks about this actually and you know for it to be long lasting it has to be generally differentiated and defend defendable and that means you you have to do things that people don't like admitting to like you have to try and create monopolistic power to some extent you need to create network effects there there is and there's a book called the seven powers which is which is excellent you know what is the angle >> that you have that you're going to create something. And often what people
(08:54) do is because they're so in love with benchmarking. >> Yeah. >> They just copy what other people are doing. So, you know, I think the automotive industry is classic in this >> and early in my career, I did quite a bit of work in the automotive sector and they just, you know, BMW and Audi just look at each other.
(09:13) So, you go in there and Audi says, "Oh, what's BMW doing?" And vice versa. When you're in Detroit, GM says, "So, what about Ford?" And Ford says, "What about GM?" And Chrysler says, "What about and they their cars even start looking like each other." Everything. And and so the benchmarking means, you know, if you follow the benchmarks and guess what? You're going to be average and you're going to be undifferiated.
(09:34) So you so you need to have an insight into something, into a process, into the market, into a need. And so I think entrepreneurial businesses are often successful because there's a felt pain that someone's experienced that gave them an insight through experience that gave them a hook to then create something that's that's fundamentally different.
(09:53) And the word different is important. Differentiate it, you know, means different to everyone else, you know, and the case studies people use are always the same. So you have Southwest Airlines as an example that kind of evolved out of necessity. So as you were talking there I was wondering is there a is there a challenge about who owns strategy or is there lack of clarity in some organizations about who owns strategy? Is it the chief exec? Is it the board? Is it the investors? >> Well in practice there is but there shouldn't be.
(10:21) >> So I'm quite clear on this. The CEO owns the strategy. The board approves the strategy. >> Who owns the strategy is is actually really really clear. Fundamentally it's the CEO. Too often the board believe they do >> and the board's role has to be clarified and it's very often this is an issue. So the board's there to approve the strategy, ask questions, kick the tires.
(10:44) So the CEO has to get approval from the board and that that's part of core governance. Um the CEO should use his or her management team to help pull the strategy together. But fundamentally it's the CEO. >> How do we sort that out? Because I think a lot of the organizations we work in we see boards over overextending in terms of kind of their roles and it's really difficult isn't it to to unpack that and work that through.
(11:07) I I I I and particularly often in with Pbacked where there is a majority then they feel they own the strategy because they have an investment thesis but at the end of the day it's okay you're the owner you bought it for a reason and you have an investment thesis and during that process that is a key part of designing the strategy but fundamentally if you've got a CEO there it has to be the CEO and you got to back the CEO obviously you've got veto over the strategy so you have that control but you're not there every day your oversight and and I think the
(11:37) other thing is just because you have all the power in the world and because you've control doesn't mean you know how to run a business. Let the professionals who know how to run a business run a business and often there's there's there's too much second guessing and and backseat driving. you know, we we we talk a lot about delegation and accountability and empowerment, don't we? And say, in the world of HR and and and how that motivates um and Daniel Pink's, you know, three things that, you know, mastery, autonomy, and um mastery,
(12:04) autonomy, and purpose. So, same's true for for a management team and a CEO and and McKenzie actually um wrote a very good book called CEO Excellence, and they did an analysis on what makes great CEOs. you know they did longitudinal analysis very thorough and there were there were basically um six traits that they they found and trait number one was a CEO can you know create design and and and define a really strong strategy and actually number two was all design the the rest by the way was manage the team manage shareholders manage ex so manage
(12:45) yourself external arts so the two core fundamental roles of a CEO is the strategy and then the or design plus the the org in terms of talent and um culture that to me was is is very clear the board just we just need to educate board members I think and nets I think when people have training on how to be a board member if you've been a CEO and you become a board member then you've got to realize you're in a different role um and a lot of board members will be former CEOs or current CEOs and I I know for myself, I've had
(13:19) to really bite my tongue and be disciplined when nominate on a board, not as the CEO. It's a different role >> does happen because a lot of board members, they're very successful in their own context, aren't they? And they have a view on how things are and you can actually often have it where you the board will pull you in lots of different directions because each board member will have their own particular area of interest, won't they? And there's only so much professional management time that can deal with all these requests.
(13:46) >> 100%. and and and that's also why Rah is really two things. It's it's the strategy, but then through to to the board pack and and and how boards work and operate because because to me that there's a there's has to be a red line. board meetings are often ineffective as well because they're too operational and and too much in the detail and and it's like an extension of XCO which you know and and and even the CIO running a business and and some boards get down to like wanting to understand the performance of different individuals
(14:14) even and it's so I think people which is kind of an or design point people need to know their roles and responsibilities and also there's telling and there's coaching there's questioning and help helping those are two different things and all too often people start with opinions and they don't start with questions and you know I think that's just a that's a fundamental thing in in in strategy design.
(14:39) It's a fundamental thing in management. It's a but it's a fundamental thing for a board. What and and and by the way there are such things as bad questions like a recall question typically is not a great question. So if someone says um you know we've grown by 10% oh how does that break down by market or what does that compare to last year or you know which is the segment you're just asking recall question after recall question it's like a memory test um for the CEO like h so if we answer that question what action comes out of
(15:12) it like what how is that going to lead to anything um and and and sometimes if people haven't spoken for a while they feel the need to ask questions so they and you get them that is dream off questions but how often are those questions good. So I I think there's a an art that needs to be learned by people just to ask good questions which which which means to think.
(15:33) Now you're you're podcasters so you ask questions in in part for a living, right? And and I think that's in part why podcasting is such a great forum because you're asking people questions that makes them think and guess what they learn. One of my mentors um his name is Ian Caner and you know he he was the founder of Investeech.
(15:51) So he he he does everything through questioning um and asking and and he's been trying to coach me to be better at this. I'm I'm to work on. I think it's something we can all get better at. But it's it's a very easy thing just to offer an opinion. >> Particularly someone who like you know the fact that is an example to all of us, isn't it? Like someone like Ian counter could easily tell and get a lot done because of the position that they hold yet they still choose.
(16:14) Something takes a little bit longer in the moment but it what it does it expands thinking as well. >> Yeah. If if boards do take that sort of position of asking these kind of sort of memory test questions, then the board meeting can become a performance where it's like I've got to demonstrate I'm across the detail whereas really the board is there to you know expand, challenge and develop thinking, aren't they? >> Yeah. And help be supportive.
(16:36) It should be strategic. Um it should be linked to the strategy and it it it should be helpful. So if the CEO and management think, "My god, I survived another one." At least that's fine. That's not great. >> Um and and and people say, you know, it's it's very lonely to be a CEO, which which is true in most cases.
(16:59) That's not great. Being a thinking partner, why is it that so many CEO the coaching industry for CEOs is off the charts? I mean, the CEOs have there's a whole industry of mentors and coaching and everything else out there. So, including down to their psychology and you know, dealing with all sorts of things. things.
(17:19) I mean, it's it's not it's it's a bit of indictment really of of a lot of boards, but it's not always true. You know, I've I've been very fortunate to have some exceptional board members. I had my my first chairman um Richard Thompson, who's who passed away a few years ago, sadly was a phenomenal chairman and and and board member and you know, we we he had a series of disciplines that I only realized later how just how phenomenal they were.
(17:45) And he he was very good at time like he's most board meetings were an hour. He focused on the key issues. We had a meeting once a month and pre the board meeting and we talked through the business and the issues and then focused the board meeting on the issues and and that really helps you know it helps as a CEO to see the wood from the trees to step back and think and so I think that I think that's a you know and you know he he would now be deep into his mid 80s right I mean I think there's a slight discipline dare I say it that the old
(18:14) generation had sometimes that maybe we we've unlearned you it's worth reflecting on >> I think one of the things I really enjoyed about your books was the kind of the importance of one pages. So you you articulate that beautifully at kind of various levels kind of the the strategy and the planning processes.
(18:30) Can you talk a bit more about the importance of one pages and that kind of real skill of being able to synthesize your intentions? >> I mean it's about clarity of thinking and and and having a good conversation. If you are flipping from page to page to page, say in a PowerPoint pack or something like that or a board pack, it becomes a monologue and people become passive.
(18:50) To have a good conversation, you have to structure that conversation and and focus and so a one page gives you that and it it just it just anchors you and there can be other detail but it just anchors you. So an an example of the one page I love inventing acronyms um if you haven't gathered already. One is called the pope um which stands for plan on a page which is just the whole plan on one page but what that is is it's the metrics.
(19:20) So what are the key metrics we want to achieve beyond just KPIs but obviously the KPIs will be there and where are you today and then where do you want to be? We call them landmarks. So in the next say five years sort of within the horizon that you you know you can foresee and and enterprise value will often be one of those metrics.
(19:40) um revenue, profitability, you know, these kind of things, but but other other things as well like net promoter scores and employee churn and so the broad spectrum you break it into swim lanes. So what are the key lenses on on the business? It can only really be five. So what the other thing on one page it gives you it forces you to prioritize because strategy is about prioritization and this is and and tradeoffs and also communication is about prioritization and so it forces you what are the keys from what are the key metrics I can only get so much on a
(20:10) page you can only really get 20 at most 25 on on on at most right but even that most people would argue was too many and so where are you what do you want to get then some stepping stones so what are the stepping stones on the way to that journey again it's one page You can only really have two, maybe three at most, you know, checkpoints and we then those have to be branded because it has to be you want to create an emotional connection. Call it out.
(20:35) So you you can all rally behind something and focus on something. And then what are the key initiatives? What are the initiatives you need to do that going to make a change? So between where you are to the next stepping stone and across the piece and again you can only have so many stepping stones and so many initiatives.
(20:51) So it's a focus and you know I was just reviewing um you know the plan of a you know a French company um few days ago and you know the CEO and and and chair were just sort of struggling with momentum and they weren't getting stuff done and you can just look you can just count how many initiatives they have on what are they trying to achieve there's no way this is only so one it forces you to say what are we going to do now so that's an example of a one page and then that one page should dynamic.
(21:22) Uh, another example is the the CEO view, we call it the view from the bridge, but the onepage summary at the beginning of a board pack. Um, now you know what are the highlights? Three people generally can only remember three things. That's why you know you have TLAs, threeletter acronyms like try and you know this there are these tricks in communication.
(21:44) So what are the three highlights, three low lightss? what are the three main issues we need to focus on and what are the recommendations. So that on one page and and that really is the agenda for a board meeting that is then the crux of all the conversations. Then for each of those you can dig deep but at least everyone knows okay I know what the issues are.
(22:05) I know what you're recommending we do or the options I know where we need to focus by the way congratulations on these things. You know it's always good to to to sort of remind yourself of the success. So, it's another example of a onepage who it's it's just a discipline. I it's something I learned a little bit from my management consulting days and um Barbara Mento who's kind of the the mother of communication in the consulting industry.
(22:29) She created um the pyramid principle and and and and which is we were just all basically evaluated and trained on that principle, you know, for for days when we became a consultant very and it's like tell them what you're going to tell them. Tell them the answer and then tell them why and break it down.
(22:46) you know this is how executives like like to learn. So that's there you know the one page um board packs will often be in the hundreds of pages and try that or strategy and everything else. So it's again it's just the distillation of of of thinking um and to the point earlier about discipline thinking discipline thinking is about narrowing it down to succinct things that people can remember.
(23:09) It also adds communication to the organization because you give everyone clarity. Yeah, this just benefits all the way down with this, isn't it? And I imagine it's quite a painful process, isn't it? Because we get emotionally connected to some of our priorities. It's almost like killing our babies sometimes, isn't it? It's like, but the the actual output of the document is it just shows how much work goes into it.
(23:30) And I imagine some organizations would be tempted to shrink the size of the font to get more priorities. >> Oh my goodness. Yeah. I the amount of detail that people love to put on a page, that doesn't count. >> Yeah. It doesn't count. It has to be legible. That's why it has to be whites space. There is a thing we we know how to design a page.
(23:51) >> There's a gestalt principle. You know, you you things have to be in proportion and easy to absorb. Um and you know, CFOs are often the worst. I I find CFOs they they when they write their summary all all they do is you have a table of dense data and split in all sorts of ways and then they rewrite the data that's there in you know of often you know 600 words on a page alongside other information you know take you take you half an hour to read the one page um and then no so what it's it's good to have opinions in the right order like
(24:31) why did this happen to that what are the key insights that you've taken away from this? What questions does this mean we need to dive into? So, I don't see that from CFOs very often and and and so it's there's a there's a discipline of thinking and just reporting on the weather doesn't really help that much.
(24:48) >> One of the things you talk you talked about earlier alluded to earlier the fact that strategy is dynamic so it's not kind of a fixed document. A lot of things we see kind of strategies get launched, you know, it's a it's a glossy PDF and you know, then there's complaints, well, as fast as we've launched a strategy, something's changed.
(25:04) There's something fundamentally flawed in that process, isn't there? When we've got got to that point. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, thank you. It's a phenomenal important point. >> It's not one and done. The strategy is evolving. It's con should be constantly live. >> And I and I think the great companies, you see that. You see how they evolve.
(25:22) you see how they go and when you look back it all makes sense but it's no they're evolving and evolving I mean you know AWS is a I know Amazon is is a phenomenal example of that you know he had a very clear Bezos view of what he wanted to do but he it was when he see saw Steve Jobs that he he when he saw the what he was doing with the he he thought the Kindle because he thought books would be dead so he invented that then they were had all these servers and everything else and so they invented AWS which generates more profit So that it's
(25:52) constantly evolving >> and they created methodologies, you know, with with backward thinking. So you you write your press release and work backwards and it's it's a onepage press release. Interestingly, um, famously, they do everything in word and they force you to read at the beginning of the document because people don't read.
(26:10) I mean, I made the joke at the beginning like you write the book and does anyone read it? I I don't think many people read. And I I wonder how often people actually just sit back and think. I'm I'm always fascinated like by Bill Gates and Warren Buffett just how much time they spend reading. It's Buffett famously like all I do is read. I'm I'm preparing myself to make one or two decisions a year and and and and and so that that that level of reflectiveness and the people I find the most impressive what they just they're ferocious readers >> and they're absorbing and absorbing and
(26:39) life and so then they just they have this body of knowledge and so when the time comes to make that decision they or they see an insight they they they have that you know the brain's a muscle so so I think that's a big part of this it's it's you know time um how you manage time and having time for that.
(26:57) Having time literally to read and to think and to chat and to talk some some like strategy. It takes time and it takes iteration. It takes refinement. You know, you can't get it in one go and it's always on. It's never because if you think it's done a it's wrong because it needs refinement because assumptions will be wrong or you would have missed something.
(27:20) >> It's dynamic. competitors are changing, the market's changing, technolog is changing, everything's changing all the time. So there you you'll miss opportunities if you don't. And I think there's a big reason why if you look at the number of organizations that go bust every year, it's about 10%.
(27:34) If you look at the average life of organizations, say in in S&P 500 or the Fortune 100 or you know it it's gone down from 30 odd years to almost 15. It's almost haved in the last 20 30 years. There's a reason for this yet people continue. So, and that's the role of a CEO >> and that's the role of the people that are helping the strategic process is is so if your CEO is too busy, you're in trouble.
(28:02) If your CEO is too inward focused, not out there with customers, not out in the market, you're in trouble because it's an outwardly looking thing. understanding your customers and your competitors is very you know and that's the other thing is I think people spend too much time on their internal processes looking at those rather than what are customers really think and why are they buying what do they value and who are they and do we really understand them and do we understand how they're evolving you know so that muscle needs to be really created and I think too
(28:29) many organizations just don't have that >> hi we're just pausing this interview for a moment have you ever finished an episode of the ordev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points us so we made one. It's called from pod to practice and each week in our newsletter will share a two-page summary of the latest org dev episode.
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(29:06) the links in the show notes or you can visit our website at www.distinction.live to get the latest from pod to practice in your inbox and let us know what you think. We'd love to get your feedback. >> A critique of you know for example the HR profession is that we're too inward-looking and but one of the things that you sort of talk about is like how organizations differentiate themselves and you talk about value factors and often the value factors are how we perceive them but what you're talking about is actually know it's what the customer determines as value as well.
(29:32) Could you just unpack that for me because we're really trying to encourage people to look outward and actually keep the customer in mind at all times. >> No guys, you you've really done your homework. I have to say this is this is an absolute joy talking with you. Um you've learned everything. So yeah, value factors.
(29:48) It it was it was really inspired by Blue Ocean. Um and what what are the from the customer perspective? What do they value? Why are they buying and why what's going to make them buy A versus B? you versus someone else. It's distilling that down. What are the most important value factors? Again, it's about choice.
(30:10) So, so what you will often see is people pray and spray, right? It's just spray and praise. It's like you just try everything and maybe one thing will hit. No, no. What specifically for your segment? And if it was Southwest, it it's their segment was the driver and they was in Texas and how much did it cost to drive from say Houston to Dallas and how long did it take? Right? We want to stop them driving and flying.
(30:41) So how do how do we make it cheap enough and easy enough and frictionless so they can come on quick boarding go. And that was that. If you're flying with netjets, the opposite end, it's it's private. It's all about I I can book a private jet anytime, fly anywhere. I I I've got God, I've never flown on a private jet, but you know, you the champagne's there and the the complete concierge service and it's just it's frictionless and it saves my time.
(31:08) Two very valuable businesses, totally different market segments, totally different value propositions, totally different value factors. When Continental tried to compete with Southwest, they mixed it up. they tried to compete there but their whole business model wasn't born from what those value factors were and so that it became uncompetitive and so what you see with great businesses they have very very clear value factors that are defined from the customer perspective when you when you and I we do this all the time at Ira we get management teams
(31:36) to try and list the value factors and then to score them so we have different methodologies for how you um rank so you can get to a ranking of of importance and you know card sorting and A versus B testing and things like this and you will just be well you won't be surprised but it's still surprising how divergent the opinions are about importance and then you interview customers and then get their views and and and what it also tells you if one group of customers value one set of value factors differently to another that by
(32:11) definition is a different market segment that's how you define a segment and and so if they're if you got two segments that have fundamentally want different things, you kind of have a choice. Which one do we focus on? Which one is more value? Where are we better? Where are we more differentiated again versus the competition because how does the competition rate against those value factors? And what blue ocean, you know, led and and you talk about or whites space is can you configure a set of value factors that make you an N of one
(32:41) that make you unique that you you don't have competition. That's really the ambition that you want to place you want to try and get to is we don't have competition because this set of value factors and therefore the set of capabilities of what we do is unique and that then becomes a long juring I care is a fantastic example of that but you know there are there are others >> yeah and that kind of goes counter to how we're taught at at college isn't it which is we segment according to social demographics don't we whereas you're
(33:10) saying no it's it's a lot more precise than that >> well social demographics is as a you use as a proxy to try and understand that. So you might say well you know young people have less money so are more costconscious or um you know people who are wealthy want these things. So it's a crude it's a crude way of trying to get to it.
(33:34) But the right way is to understand the customers and then is there something from the demographic data that they have in common that you can use for targeting um so that you can get to that segment. that you know Volvo focused on safety and BMW drives focus on the driving experience the same demographic just different value things that people are prioritizing so Volvo is Volvo and BMW is BMW they're both you know premium cars but they have they have a clear differentiation at least on that on that dimension so that's what you're trying to get to and if and if
(34:10) all you do is ask these management consultants oh benchmark me gains x Z, then guess what? You're just copying them. You'll be copying their value factors. It's it's it's not going to fit. >> And that's there's some really difficult discussions, isn't there, that kind of kind of teams need to negotiate.
(34:25) You're going to navigate to to kind of get to agreement on those things. They're not not easy discussions. >> Make a choice. >> Yeah. >> You know, and Winston Churchill said, you can please some of the people some of the time, but not not all the people all the time. You have to make a choice. You make a trade-off.
(34:40) What are we? Are we are we you know if you're in the airline industry are we the low cost high turnaround one skew that's the entire business model and we that's our segment um or are we full service it's about connectivity and and you know being a hub and connected and and and and the business traveler you know that's another segment.
(35:02) who is our segment um and how are we best for that and how do we reach them and you can't be all things to all people and and that's at the heart of it and and people are uncomfortable making that choice because they have their vested interest and I I think a really nice um case study with this is uh Sony. So Sony had all the capabilities in the world to build um the iPod and they were actually presented with the idea of building the equivalent of the of the iPod.
(35:36) You know Steve Jobs was not the first person to you know create songs on on on that disc format. Um and they rejected it and it was rejected because their core capability was a slowmoving engine. um a little motor like that, you know, that did the cassettes and they were the best in the world at that and they had the Walkman and they didn't realize now our business is portable music branded portable you know Sony phenomenal brand all the rest of it.
(36:02) They could have owned and and and dominated that industry. They didn't they it was internally driven. Nokia knew two years in advance what Steve Jobs and Apple were doing. And they had so many different business divisions and units, so many vested interests wanting different things. they organizationally could not react.
(36:20) They just couldn't respond. Um and the rest is so the these things are absolutely known and and and so it's it's the internal that's where your design gets in the way and your structure gets in the way of strategy. And I I think you know you said at the beginning what drives what I mean is is 100% clear in my mind strategy drives structure not the other way around.
(36:42) You know it's it's it's not the tail wagging the dog. And so you got to be clear on the strategy and on on these questions. Everything deductively then follows from there. I I think this speed of change. So let me give you a perspective on speed of change. It doesn't change that fast in the near term.
(37:04) We over we think things are going to change way faster in the next year or two than what happens in reality. So we um overestimate the speed of change in in the near term and we underestimate it in the long term. So in a five in a 10y year time horizon the level of change is profound and that has been true since the end of the industrial revolution.
(37:27) So just just reflect what life was like in 1900 versus 1920. In 1900 there was no electricity. Everything was horses. No one had flown yet. People were almost entirely rural. Very poor in the western world. extremely poor. You know, actually New Zealand interesting was extremely wealthy relative to the rest of the world back then.
(37:51) And in 1920, cars had taken over. You the um the term jwalk, I just learned this recently, was developed by the automotive industry in the 1920s. A J was a was an ignorant person who didn't understand anything. And it was an advertising campaign to stop people crossing the the road because when there were horses, you could just walk around and with cars, you couldn't.
(38:12) So they they had a whole advertising campaign to basically convince people you just can't cross the streets anymore so cars could move. Um and then jaywalking came into account and now there's a law in America that is against jaywalking. So between 19 it just profound in that 20 years. Now if you would have lived from you know 1902 to 1904 not much changed or 19 you know obviously there was the first world war and that had a huge impact on everything as well and the Spanish but it's just Richard Rum would say more change between 1870 and 1920 than between 1970
(38:46) and 2020. So AI is is you know everyone talks about AI is going to have a huge impact. It will take the impact will be greater than than we expect. Um, all cars will be self-driving. We'll be talking about self-driving cars for a very very long time. But if but eventually it happens. We we you know I spend if I'm doing any concentration work, I spend all my time now using AI.
(39:09) Like AI is now part of how I do work. But but it it takes it just takes time but the impact is bigger and and so people get overly nervous in the near term. But that also I think creates a sense of inertia because if you don't do it because you survived the year the forecast didn't happen this year or the next year.
(39:31) So then you think oh it's not going to happen but it but it really is. So because you work with private equity as well and there's always that and growth is is the driver and we we hear this a lot in organizations about how to get the the pace of growth right and so for example um a few weeks ago we were sort of with an organization they just released the strategy and they kind of they agree in principle that these are all good ideas but the rate of growth the people within the organization don't feel as if they've had time to consolidate the growth to date. Is that
(40:00) a failure of strategy that you know people's perspectives aren't being updated or that >> it's probably more a failure of planning and and and execution? So that you know you need a good strategy but you also need a good you need great execution. Like both things have to be true. Um without a good without a great strategy you're not going to succeed but if you have a great strategy without execution you're still not going to succeed.
(40:24) Like both things have to be true and which is why it's so difficult. So I I'm I'm personally a big believer in consolidation. I'm a big believer in slow is smooth and smooth is fast. You know, um foundations sometimes need to be put in place, sometimes go and put foundations in later, but trying to do both simultaneously um is is difficult.
(40:46) A key thing is is is focus is the key word. Getting things nothing better than getting something done and just saying, "Wow, we we had a start. We worked. It was harder than we thought and we got it done. No, let's move on to the next thing. >> And what were some of your experiences of of with like for example with or view because you got you got product market fit which is the holy grail, isn't it? And then things really took off really quickly.
(41:11) What were some of the lessons that you learned from that that other organizations can take from that? >> So it it was it's always way harder than you think. Um it takes longer than you think. uh if you're the entrepreneur. So if there's an entrepreneur listening, you you you have this unfortunate tendency of being overly optimistic. Um that is your superpower.
(41:31) Um as long as you've got the resilience to deal with the disappointment of being wrong all the time until you're right, you just have to a you just have to stick with it because it just takes longer. It takes longer to build the product. It takes longer to get the message out there. As good as you think your product is, it you have to refine it.
(41:47) And I mean some of the things that we did just really silly things that didn't think about at the beginning. So I'll give you an example and it's so obvious it's like well why didn't we think about that is we when we had the first org chart and you couldn't change the um the order of the notes and our first client which actually happened to be in San San Francisco really cool client was really so chuffed to get them like yeah this is amazing they loved it like I just want to change the order and I'm like oh my god the order is obviously important
(42:15) like the order you put things and and so it didn't take as long to make that change, but you need that kind of feedback. And there's a paradox here because if you only listen to the feedback of the customer, then you you Henry Ford then said if I ask them what they want, they'll have a faster horse. Steve Jobs famously didn't believe in market research.
(42:41) And there is a walking set. So people listen to this. He's saying he is contradicting himself the whole time. And that is true. There's a set of paradoxes that you have to manage. Both things have to be true simultaneously. You know, you have to have your um Richard Thompson always said to me, you have to have your head in in in you know, the clouds and your feet on the ground.
(43:00) Like you have to be crazily ambitious and thinking disrupting the world and changing the world, but you've got cash flow and payroll to meet and you just need, you know, so both things are true. And it it was that was very much my experience with with org view, you know, it was certain things was just like silly. Um I also another example, you know, you think you're one and done and you think it's working.
(43:26) So we had this the scale of our clients were much bigger than I expected. So I I believe that we would have our initial clients would all be sort of sub 10,000 20,000 employees. didn't see that the the huge organizations in the world would want to view and I said so so very quickly large organizations wanted and then they wanted one page they wanted to see the entire organization on one page so 200,000 nodes on a single page viewed in an icicle or some you know I just didn't see that um >> I would have loved to been in the taxi on the way home from that sales meeting
(44:08) crept up and it was like oh my goodness and and so it was like we had to redevelop like the layout algorithms but then and then compression so we we use an offtheshelf compression algorithms when you're moving the data from say the client site to our servers there's a compression algorithm I didn't know there was a compression algorith I didn't even know what that was it was not a thing and then all of a sudden we had a you know a very large you know footsy 20 client this is quite early on and the data didn't they couldn't get
(44:36) the data into all of you. I'm like what? And you know this was a and I sold them on when I turned 40. It was literally my 40th birthday is when they agreed to come. So it was a very nice day. And then the next day the data didn't come across. I'm like huh? So then we had to scramble and build a compression algorithm that worked that was native to a view like that was not on the road map. We built that.
(44:59) It was very stressful at the time. Never thought about again you know. So that's there's a lot of that. There's a lot of you know it was was a rum who said there's the there's the knowables and no known known known unknowns and unknowables unknown unknowns and there's a lot of unknown unknowns um and and so when you're building and it's that phase so you you can have all the plans and you can have all the strategy and all of that's intact but you just have stuff that just hits you and so how you deal with that and again prioritize it's all about
(45:32) prioritize how you prioritize time how you you So you've only got most organizations have got finite resources. So there are some exceptions and they're all in Silicon Valley and they're all worth about four trillion. But beyond those, you know, we all have finite resource. So at a point in time, you have to you have to, you know, the word is pivot, but it's not so much pivot.
(45:52) It's pause certain things to to redirect energy to get something done to then go back to. And that's just the nature of life. You know that's why planning as we said strategy is always on. Planning is always on. >> It's a dynamic plan which is why the spreadsheet is so dangerous because it's the spreadsheet as as you said Danny is it's it's like one view of reality into the future where every single number is locked. There's no spread of anything.
(46:19) The world's never like that. So then and then so what do you need? A lot of it is just like good oldfashioned just resilience. You just got to work through work through these things and and these unexpected hits. But then >> those things also become a feature as well often, right? So now guess what? We has this ability to move huge sways of data and model at scale.
(46:42) It's it's the only platform as far as I know in the world that can model an entire organization at that kind of scale and and through that kind of change. So when you're trying to get to product market, we've already achieved product market fit at that stage under the classic definition. So classic definition is 1 million of revenue, you know, over 20 customers is is kind of the definition in the world of SAS.
(47:04) So we're beyond that point, but it's like getting to the point of scalability and and where you've got a platform that you know can generally go. You know, there's so many of these things that you just have to have to get through >> during that time when we don't know like you know the software is being tested in ways you never knew possible.
(47:20) you're having to invent and build and and and you're constantly throwing huge challenges at the team because like and and it's mindbending, isn't it? At speed as well. How do you keep the team together like because it's easy to to fragment and how do you keep that sort of common sense of all pulling in the same direction.
(47:38) We're all this is hard but we got to keep going. >> I think it's easier in those earlier days. You you have this feeling of like sort of band brothers type feeling like we're all in this. it's us. Um, you don't have all these structures in place that get in the way. It's it's harder when you become successful because, you know, professional managers come in, professional processes, egos, the, you know, the there's a risk of um, and again, this is a Warren Buffett thing, hiring mercenaries, not missionaries. You want an organization
(48:12) of missionaries, people are on the mission. Um that's an as a type of person that's just missiondriven and if you when you become really successful it's you attract mercenaries you you they go they see the shiny shiny they see the success they want to be part of it and and so I I think it's that early phase was was not a challenge because the pe that's what people get want to come to work for you know they want to be that and because you're small there's not as much falling through cracks because of you know through interfaces
(48:44) and communication you know that the team small a lot of the knowledge isn't in a few people's heads you know which doesn't isn't scalable but is what works which is why you know startups and early stage businesses have a chance it's why you know the the concept of skunk works was created by Loheed Martin so just having a small group of people go and do this thing over here and and disrupt and work in a self-contained way limited budget small team that's why that works So and so and that's why all you know organizations around the world are
(49:19) trying to adopt agile principles but that is really what that is about. It's about iteration being able to do but it's small teams and you have you know can you feed you know the whole team with two pizzas and all those principles are born from that and large organizations try to find ways to you know emulate that.
(49:42) some most unsuccessfully but you know some some do. >> I just want to come back to something you said just just a little while ago about the importance of pausing stuff. It's something we see not enough organizations doing. They add priorities at the top you know add and add and add and they don't ever pause or stop stuff and the kind of the implications of that for the rest of the organization are really significant aren't they? We we we have it on on the from the pope you have the initiatives and we have a list you say it's an idea it goes onto the
(50:09) backlog it gets prioritized it gets started we have it so we these are the stages some get stopped it some will rejected some just get paused just pause it doesn't so pause is different to stop because pause is like we're coming back to this >> we just can't complete it right now because this has come up and we need to put our attention here and is this really healthy to say what are our list of paused initiatives and also what are our list of stopped or rejected right what do we what have we decided not to do again choice you know you have to
(50:45) make these decisions and these trade-offs you can only do so much and you know can only do so much within um the time constraints and there's the there's the golden triangle of of quality time and cost uh you know nine pregnant women can't have a baby in a month you know there are just laws of physics It's just so you just have to be mindful of this and critical resources like you might not have the capability to do it.
(51:13) So you might pause because we just don't know how we need to get a supplier to help us or to hire >> or it's like in in the instance of that compression thing. This is mission critical. We have to get the sorted. we have to pause these other elements, >> you know, and it might only be for two weeks, right? Where we sort that and that's asks the point about team or the question about team that's galvanizing as well.
(51:36) Okay, we've paused, we're on this, now we're back. But the other thing in terms of managing developers, one thing I've learned is um context switching and zigzagging too much and pivot is also really really dis disruptive because they you know they want to sit down, work on something and get it live and and and so people have this idea that you're constantly pivoting and switching.
(51:57) It's it should you know it should not be like that because the the cost of switching is huge and context switching and all this. So I think people can can hear a story like I just said and think ah so every week we're pausing and we no that's that's chaos you know that's um again these paradoxes or contradictions is why I've written a book like all these series of contradictions and paradox that you have to manage.
(52:21) >> There was one thing that I remember reading the book really struck me and it was about objective setting and where it sits within the organization. and you you had a very strong view it shouldn't sit with HR and I thought that was really powerful and probably worth us unpacking because I think a lot of the people listening will be kind of in that that space in HR where they've kind of g been given the kind of objective setting and performance management.
(52:40) So just talk a bit more about that for us. >> Yeah. So so it should come from strategy and the PL and then the plan. So so it all cascades from that and it's teams that deliver outcomes. Even a sales person like the the most objective thing is um sales reps and quote retainment but you know they're really reliant on how good is lead generation and marcoms how great is the product how good the pre-sale support how great are the references you you as a saleserson you're really you know yes you have a big influence but you're really also
(53:16) dependent on on a lot of things and and and and particularly things that are important multid-disiplinary So, so that is one reason that by allocating objectives to the personal level, you're creating silos and people if you just focus people on a set of metrics, set of outcomes, they will only manage that and they won't think about the organization.
(53:37) So, you get what you you you measure. The other thing is people talk about performance for pay and and and what have you and then simultaneously they talk about development and talent management and if if you are um setting it from an HR perspective, what you're really doing is you're negotiating someone's reward and bonus and and and how they're going to get um promoted.
(54:00) And so what you're doing is you're pre-negotiating. So if I'm going to negotiate with you my pay based on an outcome, I'm going to negotiate that outcome as low as possible. So I'm shooting for the for the bottom that I can achieve. And that is a that then becomes a zero sum game type negotiation.
(54:20) So trust is being eroded and broken. Also, if I'm doing bottom up, people are picking their pet projects and what they want. So we're going all directions then. it and and it doesn't focus on development and and you know we we all want to get better and perform and you know love our work uh and we love our work you know back to you know Daniel Pink if we have the competence to be excellent at achieving the purpose and that autonomy to do what we're doing well then um how am I going to help you be amazing how am I going to help you know I'm love strength-based
(54:56) management and amplifying people's strengths and so it's the combination of strengths. So how do you how do you identify okay these are the strengths okay these these weaknesses how can we compensate for those or just make them not even relevant rather than always try you know and then really amplify this and then improve so to me it should be about development and if it's about if it's but you have to make a choice it's either about pay and reward and negotiating or development because if I'm and and you have to make that choice
(55:26) and to me you know HR should be help finding not just get the best talent but optimize the the talent you have >> to then help with with that execution and at the end of the day life is so short so make it enjoyable make it fun that that helps enormously so so yeah so that that's why and I I I I think almost everywhere I I think HR's doing this the you know the wrong way and and being set up for failure as well but I think HR needs to be braver I find HR is not brave enough at saying, "No, if we do this, this doesn't work." Like, I
(56:04) think a lot of these things are are understood, but they're kind of almost order takers too often. >> Um, and then they complain why they don't have a a seat at the table. Well, you know, if you're an order taker and you're just doing this, then kind of don't deserve one. >> Uh, we got to make sure that's rewound and played on a loop in perpetuity because because HR's at a strategic inflection point right now, isn't it? and it really needs to be at the vanguard of change as well.
(56:30) Um there are so many questions we we want to ask you like um your your hatred of raciy and there's an alternative to it. The fact that all businesses are technology businesses, one person's handoff is another person's output. There are so many questions we want to ask you and potentially we'd love you to get you back for a round too, but we always try and finish with the same the three similar questions.
(56:50) So one one question you're incredibly well read and that comes out really loud and proud in the book uh strategic value creation. How does a person who's so intensely busy with so many different interests and and on such a growth trajectory, how do you find time and how do you invest in your own learning and development? >> Well, the first thing to say, I don't read nearly as much as I would I would I would like to.
(57:10) Uh but and then it's just making time. I mean, I I I and and and creating time. So often it's the mornings you know I I I either try and train work out or do work in the mornings and then read is is a is a thing you know I mean for strategic value creation I read over 50 books in in quite a short period of time I was just reading every morning ferociously and yeah and then in the tube as well you know I don't have a I'm lucky I don't have a long tube journey um it's it's less than 15 minutes but if you can read you know 12 13 minutes and you'd be
(57:44) surprised how that kind of all adds up. Um, so I I think you know, holidays and and I think Bill Gates when he he takes two weeks a year, he goes away to a cabin somewhere just on his own with like I don't know how many books and just reads them. So that's how he does it. >> Just going to Could you just tell my partner that >> he's just got the kids for a couple of weeks? >> Yeah.
(58:10) But just making just making time and and and prioritizing that. You've got to enjoy it as well, right? But I what I found as well is because often when I'm reading, I'm also reading with a purpose. That helps. >> So then all of a sudden, so when I was reading, you know, writing strategic value creation, I became a little bit manic with reading and but I would also reread I mean some books I reread five times.
(58:30) Richard Ruml's book, Good Strategy, Bad Strategy. I I didn't get it. probably the first two times through I I didn't fully understand it and I was like really frustrated and I didn't really I couldn't get what he meant by the crux question and it took me a long time to to understand that. So it's just rereading and and writing a lot in books.
(58:52) I'm I I for me I need a physical book >> because I have to write notes and underline and then I reread those and I know again and I just find not being digital believe it or not I wrote all my I wrote my books by pen and paper because it's for me it's that tactile it's that experience a different I'm a big believer in whiteboards and spending time in a whiteboard because on a whiteboard you're again it's democratizing there's no hierarchy when you're st you're physically standing which is a different energy and you're just working through things. Um,
(59:19) >> I' I'd echer and a an annotator and all of that stuff. >> I've been reflecting on kind of the use of AI and AI note takingaking and it it's not doing it for me. If I'm on a research call or, you know, a focus group, I need to write the notes myself and I need to write them up myself because that kind of sense making >> part of it.
(59:40) It doesn't happen if you're just relying on AI to do it for you. So, um, >> make those connections. >> Yeah. >> Not not the the AI agent. You can use the AI. It's phenomenal for summarizing X Y doing >> it's it's a in your little >> brain. You've got all these. It's a neural network, isn't it? You got to create these connections. >> And is there a particular book that sticks out or a book or a podcast or resource that that stuck with you you'd recommend to others read? >> Yeah, I mean it changes.
(1:00:10) So the the podcast I listened to the most when I was um writing strategic value creation was called Founders. Uh, and that I just absolutely loved. And there were lots of books in that that I read. Um, and and and and you know, and in including one about like how bananas Joe the Banana Man and like how he came about and that whole thing was just nuts to me and how this one guy suddenly to took over like one of the largest or businesses in the US bananas and how that whole thing evolved.
(1:00:43) Um, so that podcast I found and now I'm on to another one which is it's kind of like on steroids. It's like five to six hours per episode and they it's called a quiet and they just go really deep into an organization um and how it was founded and worked through and it it's it it's really enlightening when particularly from a strategy development perspective like you can really see how they create and and my favorite podcast on that was um Hermes Um, like I I don't know anything about retail really or fashion. Like I don't care about
(1:01:17) clothes. I just wear t-shirts. I just I hear it's just mindboggling and how counterintuitive that entire organization is. It's all about craft and they take days to build a bag and how the whole thing just comes about and you know they have I think 90ish% of all craftsmen in the world are like work for this one organization.
(1:01:36) and they trained them for years and rural parts of France and just the level of detail and and and timelessness of what they create and how the whole customer experience and all of that. So that um that was from acquired and you know these guys I mean similar to you they just research like crazy and then they just you know get that.
(1:01:55) So, those are podcasts. Um, I absolutely love. If you want to read a book on one book on strategy that that isn't mine, uh, I I would I would go for Richard Rumold's Good Strategy, Bad Strategy. >> Yeah. >> Um, I I would say you're probably not going to get it all in one go. At least unless you maybe you're smarter than I am.
(1:02:18) But, um, but that's I find a lot of business books have one or two ideas and then that's it. Um, I didn't find that to be true. And I think it's he he really helped it's what I observed myself but he really articulated well how um bad how prevalent bad strategy is and being able to call it out I think is really useful. >> Brilliant.
(1:02:36) And then the last question we want to ask you is um what advice would you give someone who's just starting out in strategy? So they're just sort of taking their their first steps. They they've listened to the podcast today. They've understood the importance of it. Uh they understand that they you know they need to be a strategist to make a dent in an organization and in the world as well.
(1:02:53) What advice would you give them to to start out? And you're very welcome to to sign posting to your book as well. >> Um I think you done signposting my book already, but thank you. It's um uh think about the questions you ask, you know, be outward. Think about the customer. Um think about the competitor. So outward focus. Uh get the elephant on the table.
(1:03:16) So tradeoffs on which segment do we focus on? trade-off on um what what's really the ambition that we're trying to achieve here. Let's be honest about that. Um and and and and I I I had one client actually really successful and and they believed that they they had to just grow and start opening offices up around the world and when I was really trying to unpin the ambition turned out they just wanted a lifestyle business and they just wanted to be friends and actually they just wanted to celebrate together on a beach in 5 years time and
(1:03:47) it was just like it was almost the expectation of society or the industry was you open offices >> and I'm like why are you doing what's the because what's the ambition and then they they were literally about to sign stuff in Germany and what have you and they just stop the whole thing I just get get this on the table you know some some sometimes people just don't even realize what they're doing while they're doing it so if you're starting out just ask you know one thing if one thing is just ask good questions
(1:04:14) >> well Robert we just want to say a huge thank you uh we've been looking forward to this conversation for a long time it's taken a long time to organize it so thank you so much um for making time for us as Well, uh, it's been just thoroughly enjoyable. It's brought so many different things.
(1:04:29) It's like the big picture, the the the craft of strategy, the precision that's required, the clarity, the discussions, the different perspectives that it brings into as well. So, we really do recommend the books. We've totally devoured them. We've really enjoyed them as well. Um, Danny, what are you taking away from today's conversation? >> I think it's hard to do it justice in a couple of points, but I think, you know, some of the things that have stuck with me are kind of the importance of starting with questions, not opinions. I
(1:04:50) think you know if we could just adopt that as a a mantra in our organizations that would be huge. The importance of great strategy and great execution and a lot of those paradoxes that you talked about is not either or it's it's and um you have to do both. And the importance of choice I think kind of was a thread throughout.
(1:05:07) You have to make difficult choices at all, you know, at all times and all to get the clarity and the the focus that you need to succeed. >> And and you've taken some of mine there, but I if I had to add the power of pauses and being really explicit and the rationale, the logic behind it that it's it's not a bad thing. Um, and missionaries, not mercenaries.
(1:05:24) That is such an important element as well. Um, Robert, if people want to follow your extensive work, you have a brilliant podcast I've completely devoured as well. How can people follow your work and keep up to date with what you're doing? >> Uh, yes. I have a podcast in org design called Unpacking Organizations, which which has been a lot of fun.
(1:05:43) I I'm not as I'm not being as active posting or what have you at the moment with regards to um work I'm doing with the Rahi because I'm I'm just at the scaling phase and um so we have clients live and it's going really really well and with the feedback's been phenomenal but you know making it work with small number of clients to a large number is kind of the phase we're in.
(1:06:07) So, I'm I'm probably not being as prolific as maybe I I need to be start upping my game a little bit, but there's always a phase for doing things. So, I'm on LinkedIn and and I would say to your listeners, you know, feel feel free to link in with me and then, you know, the thing that gives me the greatest joy is when people read the books and and give some comments, say, well, this is what they found useful um and how it helped them.
(1:06:32) So, those are probably the the best the best ways. >> Brilliant. Well, thank you so much, Robert. Um, for those that are watching this, what we always get so impressed is the number of shares. So, people, if you're watching this and you think, you know, someone who's strategically lost or, you know, is in HR and they they're wondering why they're not at the top table, then please share this with them.
(1:06:51) Um, we just get so many shares every week. Um, and if you enjoyed it, the algorithm gods love it if you like and subscribe as well. But most importantly, thank you so much, Rub, for making time. We know you're so busy, uh, but we've absolutely loved it. It's it's lived up to all our expectations and beyond as well. So, so thank you, Robert.
(1:07:06) >> Well, totally my pleasure and and thank you for all your amazing questions. You know, it was it was a total joy to to discuss them with you.