Leading with Purpose, Not Control with Dr Louise Van Rhyn - OrgDev Episode 87

What does leadership look like when it’s driven by purpose rather than control?

In this episode of the OrgDev Podcast, we’re joined by Dr Louise Van Rhyn, social entrepreneur, leadership and organisation development practitioner, and founder of Symphonia. Louise shares powerful insights from more than four decades of practice working with leaders, organisations and large-scale social change initiatives across South Africa and beyond.

We explore why certainty shuts down contribution, how unsolicited advice is often experienced as judgement, and what it really means to lead as a citizen rather than a parent or expert. Louise reflects on her work with Partners for Possibility, the role of listening in leadership, and why leadership development only works when it is connected to the wider organisational system.

This conversation is a deep invitation to rethink leadership as creating the conditions for others to think, contribute and thrive rather than having the answers or exerting control.

You’ll hear about
 – Leading with purpose, not authority
 – Why relationships shape thinking, action and results
 – Citizen leadership and shared responsibility
 – The hidden cost of certainty in leadership
 – Listening as a core leadership practice
 – Why leadership development is organisational development

A thoughtful and challenging episode for leaders, OD practitioners, HR professionals and anyone interested in more human, effective ways of working together

Dr. Louise van Rhyn is a distinguished social entrepreneur and leadership development practitioner. She is the founder and CEO of Symphonia Leadership Development, a social enterprise dedicated to developing leadership capacity at scale. Dr. van Rhyn's work focuses on mobilizing active citizenship and addressing significant social issues through cross-sector collaboration and citizen leadership. Her innovative leadership development process, Partners for Possibility, has positively impacted over one million people and has been recognized with numerous awards for its innovation and impact. Dr. van Rhyn's commitment to creating flourishing and inclusive organizational communities is evident in her work with leaders across various sectors.

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live

We'd love to connect with you on Linked In:
linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
https://www.linkedin.com/in/garinrouch

Transcript

(00:00) Hi and welcome to the org dev podcast. So what does it take for people on opposite sides of an issue to overcome what seems like intractable differences and work together for change? How do you get large groups of people to come together to tackle your most complex challenges? We're joined today from South Africa by the remarkable Dr.

(00:19) Louise Van Rein. Louise is a social entrepreneur, leadership and organization development practitioner and a movement leader. And we really do mean a movement leader. She describes herself as an organizational and leadership developer, designer of impactful learning processes, systems convenor, bridgebuer, possibility creator, community builder, and passionate South African.

(00:40) She's the founder of Symphonia, a leadership and development social enterprise committed to developing leadership capacity at scale. They support leaders across sectors who are committed to creating flourishing and inclusive organizational communities. She supported many leaders in small and large organizations across many industries across South Africa, UK, Europe, and the USA as well.

(01:01) In 2010, Louise made a commitment to see whether it may be possible to address some of South Africa's most intractable challenges through cross- sector collaboration and citizen leadership at scale. Louise is known for Partners for Possibility, a multifaceted social change process that was designed to strengthen leadership capacity in underresourced schools and commercial organizations across the country through cross- sector reciprocal co-action and low co-learning partnerships between business leaders and school principles.

(01:29) Partners for Possibility won many awards nationally and internationally for innovation impact and has positively impact over 1 million people. So Louise, we're absolutely honored for you to make time today to join us. Uh Danny and I have been looking forward to this conversation all week long, haven't we? >> We have. Absolutely.

(01:51) Gary's done a bit of an introduction to you. So just to kick us off, just tell us a bit could you give us a bit of a sense about the work you're doing right now and what's really exciting. >> So my work keeps changing. Um I live in a country where the opportunities to contribute is all around you.

(02:08) And so uh the work that I that I do at the moment most of my work is working with corporate teams, leadership teams in corporates uh using the experience that we've or the lessons we've learned from partners for possibility in these organizations around how do you really shift the needle? How do you move the needle and do leadership development work that has a lot of impact and can be felt by both the participants but also the people who they work with and their key stakeholders.

(02:39) So my so I'm kind of gone full circle back into uh just most of my work in corporates obviously always once a movement leader always a movement leader. So I have some thoughts about what we could do in the rest of the country. uh but I but in this season most of my work is in in organizations >> and can you just partners for possibilities was such a big part of what you did.

(03:00) Can you just tell us a bit more about that for people who might not be familiar with it? What was what was the what was that about and what did you do? >> Yeah, so I I probably need to go back a little bit in the history. I did my doctorate with Ralph Stacy um at the center for management and complexity at at Hartford.

(03:19) So, so I had this understanding of organizations as complex responsive processes of relating and returned to South Africa thinking that's where I'm going to spend my time. I'm going to use all of these wonderful things I've learned and I'm going to work with leaders and and and corporate leaders.

(03:34) And very soon I realized that that would be a missed opportunity because the when we work in an organization and we forget the context of that organization and we forget the the country the the big challenges faced by the country then the the organization has little chance to succeed. So um I became quite committed to the idea of of using what we know about business and tackling the big issues in South Africa.

(04:01) So it was a very traditional kind of business as a force for good in the world idea and uh what what it ended up being and with lots of trial and error and trying different avenues we over between 2010 and 2024 over a period of 14 years partnered about a thousand business leaders sorry 2,000 not a thousand 2,000 business leaders with school principles of underresourced schools And and the idea was that these partnerships would bring together people with knowledge and experience of HR and finance and how organizations work and

(04:39) teams etc. with committed and compassionate uh school principles who have never been most of them never had any training and how to lead organizations with adults. They all you know came through being teachers. Um and and by bringing these people together, it was a very beautiful example of 1 + 1 becomes 10 because uh when you when you do that well and and people can really tap into the wisdom and the contribution from both rather than uh one person having you know an unequal power relationship where where one person is

(05:17) the mentor or the coach. This was a co-learning and co-action partnership. It was reciprocal. The business leaders learned from the school principles. The school principals learned from the business leaders and and then between them they did work in their schools in their communities with the the the teachers the the other parents in the community and then it just kind of snowballed across the country.

(05:41) So uh yeah we the the latest figures was more than a million lives impacted by this work. Um, and it's a it for me what I'm most proud about it is using organizational development and what we all love and care about for much bigger impact than just working in an organization. No, >> it was really compelling.

(05:59) I remember the first time I heard about it and it was just a really exciting program. So before we move on, so you've chosen Symphonia as the name for the organization that you do your work under and there's a story behind that, isn't there? So can you just tell us there is a story a little bit about that? So I was living, we were living and working in the UK. I was doing my doctorate.

(06:19) Um but I was very homesick and anybody who's ever lived in South Africa will know that well Africa is in your blood. You can go and live in other countries but you also always hankered to go back one day. And I read um the art of possibility by Ben and Rosander and and for every anybody watching this I think it's the best business book or the best leadership book that's ever been published.

(06:42) um reading this book and they were talking telling the story about their visit to South Africa and they said everywhere we went people were talking about South Africa. It was like a living breathing entity a symphony of voices Symphonyia and literally overnight I changed the name of my company to Symphonyia. I said one day we will go back to South Africa and we're going to convene conversations with South Africans taking the responsibility for the future that they are committed to.

(07:12) Uh the the the story has a followup because Ben we then in 2008 invited Ben and Ros to South Africa and um Ben would often tell the story. He said he met President Mandela at Davos and he said to President Mandela you are the first leader of Symphonia because you created an environment where every voice is heard and that's my work.

(07:36) My work is to create environments where we can tap into the the beautiful contribution of every single person in the room rather than thinking the answers will come from a select few people at the top of the organization. >> And you said something really important there about people taking responsibility for the future they want to create.

(07:54) And often whether it's in organizations or in wider society, people feel that sense of helplessness and a lack of agency. what what have you found as a a way of helping people step up and take responsibility? >> So again, I think that's at the heart of our work because what we've realized is is um many people have story and the story said it's not mine, it's someone else's, I don't have the power, I don't have the authority.

(08:22) Um and so our work is all around inviting people to co-own the reality. It's not someone else who's creating this reality. we are doing it. I was working with an amazing group of people yesterday. But they had a story that said it's XCO. We have to get XCO right. And um through our work at the end of the day they realized no no XCO is part of the organization we creating and and they have to watch out because we are coming for them.

(08:51) We we are inviting them to a different relationship that's moving away from the traditional parent child. For me, that's the best description of the the challenge we have is is this kind of parent child dynamic. Um, and and we're going to move into being citizen leaders where we all co-creating a future that we are wanting to have.

(09:12) And I don't know whether you guys are finding it, but in South Africa, the biggest change agents in this space is the Gen Z's >> because they are holding up a mirror saying that world that you guys are have taken for granted, it's not a world that we are interested in. We want to be in a world where we are collaboratively creating uh the future that is going to work for all of us.

(09:32) >> There's so many threads to put on there, Louise. And one of the things you talked about though is something we often try and work with organizations with is that that citizenship of an organization and you say something about are you a consumer or a citizen? How good are organizations at clarifying what it means to be a citizen in the organization? So I don't think it's a conversation that many people are participating in once you know there's almost I almost want to put a warning sign if they're going to invite me into

(10:00) the conversation that's the conversation we're going to have. So so and the reason I'm feel so passionate about it I also have to be give kind of um acknowledge where a lot of this thinking comes from. U I have had the enormous privilege to have Peter Block as both a friend and a mentor.

(10:20) he doesn't like the word mentor but you know a friend and a colleague and and I don't know whether we as a as a field acknowledge the role that Peter plays enough because he has influenced so many of our thoughts. Um but that's one of the core ideas with flawless consulting which is one of the you know processes that I'm involved in is the idea that as a consultant I get to choose am I going to be a partner and a collaborative partner or am I going to be a pair of hands or the expert? Am I going to call the try and call the shots

(10:53) or am I going to respond to someone else else calling the shots or am I going to show up as a partner? So you'll see me do this all the time because I'm so used to that's the that's the difference and as an external consultant it's often easy for me to have the conversation with the very senior people in the organization because I don't have all of the constraints around you know where am I sitting in the hierarchy and should I be allowed to have this conversation um and then when I start to talk to the to the senior exist I I I discover every

(11:23) time all they want is to work with other adults they don't like this parent child dynamic either that we've created. It's just something that they're kind of forcing themselves to live with. So um so so my and our work is very much to invite people into a conversation around the the dynamics and the patterns that we have co-created and are they serving us? And the answer is no.

(11:47) And they're definitely not serving any Gen Z. So when there's a Gen Z into the conversation, they're going to they're going to hold up the mirror and they're going to challenge that taken forranted way of being with each other. Um I was just this morning I published an article about one of the people I has had a massive impact on my life, guy called Colin Hall.

(12:09) And um the reason why we became f friends 30 32 years ago is because I was a project manager and I heard him speak at an event and then I heard about a a movie that was being that was released and I didn't have that story in my mind that project managers don't speak to the c to the chairman of the organization.

(12:28) I just contacted him and said do you want to go to the movies to me? I was hauled onto the red carpet and almost fired because how dare you speak directly to the chairman when you just the project manager and so that that was in 1993. I see exactly that with the Gen Z's. They are not they are just not paying attention to all of this nonsense around the hierarchy and who can talk to who and what's the story and they they they committed to meet people in a spirit of equality and that's that's what makes me excited about this next 20 years in our

(13:05) field because there's a big shift coming. I do have a bone to pick with you because I was I I was listening to your podcast on my run and you just kept dropping these truth bombs and I kept having to stop and write notes in my notion as I was going. So you've ruined my run for the last few days, but you touched on some really big things there.

(13:23) So you talked about like the relationship of the you know the crossgenerational thing and a lot of people talk about five generations in the workplace and one of the things you talk about is what does it mean to be an elder in the organization? How do you pass on that knowledge? And and you said something which is really provocative because we you know we advice can be seen as judgment and how you place that and also you said something um about until someone actually asks for my advice I must stay interested and

(13:50) curious. So I just I'd love you just to open that up because I I think that's almost like a definitive way for us to approach this kind of crossgenerational challenge isn't it? >> Well it's crossgenerational but it's cross- sector. It's cross everything. So again I you know someone said last week they said your your wounds become your message or your mess becomes your message. Your mess becomes your message.

(14:14) So a lot of why I have stories to tell is because I messed up big time and and my messing up came from a story I had about leadership that says leaders must know the way and show the way and give direction. And so I went into the world thinking people are going to want me to be part of their teams if I know the way and show the way and give direction.

(14:39) And I was very quite forceful many times. I'm embarrassed when I look back at that. Passionate, enthusiastic and forceful. And I had strong ideas and I would share that those ideas. And again, Peter Block came to the rescue because he watched me one day in a conversation and I think he must have been quite irritated with you know where does this level of arrogance come from.

(15:02) So he um he asked me whether I would he said Louise I wonder he said I said he said where does all this kind of wanting to be helpful come from? I said Peter that's my contribution. I have so much to share and so much to tell people. And he said, um, I want you to consider the possibility that you being helpful is experienced as a judgment by the people you are sharing all this knowledge with.

(15:24) Oh my word. I've realized over the over so many years since then that every time I give unsolicited advice, whether it's to my children or my partners or my colleagues or my husband, they experience my judgment. And then when I have to be honest and look at where is this unsolicited advice come from, it comes from judgment.

(15:45) And so if we think of the neuroscience of judgment that says the moment we feel judged, our prefrontal cortex shuts down, our lyic system fires up and we're unable to think creatively. Then I have to ask myself, what am I trying to achieve here? I want people's prefrontal cortex actively engaged in the conversation. So with my judgment coming to the party that's making it hard.

(16:08) So I've learned this and I think it's the most powerful question we can ask. It's the question that that has saved many relationships and has had impact on many many teams. And the question is do you want to know what I think rather than just vomiting my thoughts onto people. And so so another person who's had a massive impact on my life is Nancy Klene and her work around um a time to think and creating thinking environments and and because I'm committed to be a thinking environment and practice what I've learned from Nancy um I have to be very

(16:44) careful about my sharing my ideas and my thoughts because every time I do it's actually quite disempowering because the person I'm sharing it birth doesn't get a chance to develop their own thinking around it. And as a mother, I really wanted to have good relationship with my my children.

(17:04) I discovered that my daughter who's now 27, Helen, would have a very her her physiology will change depending on whether I gave her the answer or whether I created an opportunity for her to discover the answer. So when I give her the answer, I think you should do XY Z. You can see her whole body goes, "Oh, I've been told by my mother what to do.

(17:25) " When I can support her through my questioning and my accompanying her on her thinking and meeting her where she's at and respecting her boundaries, she goes, "I know what I'm going to do with joy and enthusiasm." Now, why would I want to evoke that level of resistance and you know people dragging their feet when I can evoke a sense of excitement and joy about doing taking the next step or doing something and but that really requires people to be really aware of how they show up, doesn't it? And how often our own personal needs or

(18:03) preferences really show up and be really aware of those things, don't we? because we're we're going against a life's work, aren't we? Um everything that has pointed to us being a successful in life is being challenged, isn't it? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. So so you know in the session yesterday we were talking about the story that contribution equals speaking because many I've discovered I've had to learn this many times the biggest contribution I can make is to stay quiet and to create a space for other people to make their own

(18:31) discoveries and to listen with curiosity and interest. So, so the thing about whether you're an elder or a parent or a person with knowledge and skill, if you can accompany someone else, firstly, meet them where they are, which is what we all talk about in in the world of OD, but secondly, Garin, I think this is maybe the important thing, paying attention to whom I being in that moment.

(19:02) So that beautiful uh in in theu um Otto Sharma and the the presencing institute often used this um quote and I remember a moment where where Otto Sharma said these words to me. We were in Bhutan and he said he said Bill O'Brien said the success of the intervention is dependent on the interior condition of the intervenor and that that is a truth bomb you know because the reality is my being if I show up as the knowing and have the answers and the telling other people what to do their brain shut down and it's impossible for them to be creative

(19:40) and come to come come to creative solutions because they go into waiting for Louise to have the answers mode which is not a good place for them or me to be. Um so that's me personally but it's true for all of us >> and and you are in the domain of very certain people aren't you? You know we're when you're in the exec team level there's a lot of the sort of the alpha type personality potentially the the way they've got there is by being certain and you're inviting them into a certain way. I think you said something about

(20:08) you only learn when you become vulnerable as well. So, how do you start to create those conditions where people can be vulnerable? >> Yeah, I I'm so aware of this the session I did this week because we saw such vulnerability. Um, and I think again I have to acknowledge these amazing people in my life.

(20:27) So, so Peter Block always said it's important for us to connect first as human beings before we go into the content of the doing. And so that's become a practice for me. We always invite people to share something about them as individuals. And there's just something about the process of of creating a a psychologically safe space which then enable us to do work that no one thought was possible.

(20:50) So the person whose whose work has been incredibly uh impactful for me here is Daniel Kim. So Daniel Kim said the quality well he he did a he created a model called the Daniel Kim core theory of success. But the the important part about this model is that if we want to improve uh results, we have to look at the we need to look at the quality of the actions we take.

(21:14) But if we want to improve the quality of the actions we take, we need to think about the thinking we do first. So that's Nancy Klein's work. But to complete the model, he said the quality of our thinking depends on the quality of our relationships. So I we spend a lot of time on relationship and psychological safety which links into all of Amy Edmonson and all of the work we know.

(21:36) But what happens then when we create the focus on relationships, people start to get interested in how am I being experienced. So Ben Zander says the the key performance indicator for good leadership is whether people's eyes are shining. Now our eyes do not shine when we have to listen to someone else telling giving us solutions.

(21:56) Our eyes shine when we are able to contribute to that process and discover things for ourselves and and the most important thing is the person who is so certain is often not able to hear because they're so desperate to get their story across. So so again we have to rethink our story about leadership.

(22:17) So leaders are not necessarily I think the old story about leadership is leaders must have the answers give us solutions. I think of leaders as the people who create a space where people other people can make their best contribution. So if we again Ben another Benzander metaphor he says that the conductor on the stage is the only musician who's not who doesn't make a sound and he's dependent on his power his power is dependent on his ability to make other people powerful.

(22:44) So that's my story about leadership. Now if that's the case, it has to we have to be generous in our being and create an environment where other people can shine rather than being the ones wanting to have the answers and tell other people and shine. And again mess mess and message I used to be very certain. I used to be the one who kind of and it was when I realized that the cost of my certainty was other voices go quiet cuz who wants to fight with my certainty? >> I was going to say that's that's how Louise and I connected the first very

(23:18) first time. So probably like 2016 I was at a social enterprise conference and I remember you talking about that on stage and it it's just really stuck with me ever since and the kind of my own relationship with certainty and other people being certain. So, it's been it's been a big part of my kind of self inquiry, I guess, as a practitioner.

(23:34) >> And I guess just one thing I just want to add on that as well is it's a big challenge though, isn't it? Because it's like it's it's how am I valuable? Like how do I create value in the world changes then, doesn't it? And again, it's that huge shift. So, it's almost like before you embark on the work, you need to have informed consent.

(23:48) Like this is this is really deep work, isn't it, for people to make this change. Well, and again, this is what's been so beautiful be about Partners for Possibility because we've been, you know, we've we've put these thoughts into these very important relationships between business leaders and school principles and and many lives were impacted.

(24:11) But I'll never forget a a um two people who came and I'm going to use their names. I'm sure when they hear the story, they'll enjoy the story. So, um so one of the guys, so this was a partnership. the the the guy was now this has a lot of meaning for us in South Africa. He was white, severely Africans. And you might not know what that means, but it means certain and have answers and tell people what to think.

(24:37) That's severely Africans engineer rugby playing so big. And his whole identity was I'm a problem solver. I give people solutions. I know stuff. That's his name was Spike. Now, even just thinking of the why was he called Spike? You've got the picture. And Spike came on a course that with Rebecca. Now Rebecca was is tiny, a school principal in a very underresourced environment in near Johannesburg.

(25:08) Suetto, tiny, petite, softspoken. Spike was in your face. So I I would also always credit Spike with his ability to follow my instructions. So I was inviting Spike into a different way of being. Accompany Rebecca, meet her where she is, go through the five phases of consulting, lead her to a place where where where she makes a decision about what to do with her about her issue, but it's her decision.

(25:34) It's not Spike's decision. It doesn't come from Spike, it's Rebecca's decision. So they went through the whole process and they got to the end of the process. And I asked all of the people in the room, "How was it? What happened for you? What was the outcome?" And Rebecca turned to Spike with stars in her eyes, but literally like everybody in the room was affected by the quality of the the look between Rebecca and Spike.

(25:56) And she said to Spike, "Spike, now we're all paying attention. Spike, you know what I've discovered? I don't need your answers, but I do need your listening." You know, and in that moment, all of us in the room went, "Oh my word." And Spike took a step back and you could see he goes, "Well, where's my contribution going to come from if I'm just going to listen and I'm not going to tell people what to do?" And in that same moment, there was a realization that actually I can do so much more when the answers doesn't have to be on my shoulders, but my job is to

(26:30) create an environment where the Rebeccas of this world can come to their own solution. So that moment was a defining moment in the same way Danny that that you know when I got the feedback about my certainty was a defining moment for me and and it's so interesting how that story about Karen van Stone coming to me at Ashidge to say I want to let you know what happens when you are so certain that story has has impacted many many many many lives because certainty is such a it's such a pattern of behavior that needs to be interrupted and and

(27:04) again The Gen Z's are very very uh sensitive to that and and and I love it when they actually say it because then people start to pay attention. Hi, we're just pausing this interview for a moment. Have you ever finished an episode of the ordev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points? Us two, so we made one.

(27:27) It's called from pod to practice and each week in our newsletter will share a two-page summary of the latest org dev episode and it includes key takeaways, a reflection prompt and one small action you can try. >> And it's all in a digital format with space at the end to add your own notes and reflections. And it's designed to help you take the learning from the podcast into your day-to-day work.

(27:46) So to get your copy, just sign up to our next step to better newsletter, the links in the show notes, or you can visit our website at www.distinction.live live to get the latest from pod to practice in your inbox and let us know what you think. We'd love to get your feedback. >> So I wanted to ask you a question about OD in South Africa.

(28:02) Does is that different from your perspective to kind of OD in other parts of the world? >> So we don't qualities >> well I think so the the difference is that OD's gone through the its ups and downs in South Africa. When I first came back to to South Africa from the UK in 2005, I felt there was a der of um professional development and so we started an academy for organizational development.

(28:30) We started the South African Organizational Development Network. What worries me a little bit about OD now in South Africa is that it again it's not people don't my experience of working in the UK and the US is that people do a degree in OD or they go and do some development work in OD and then they they become an OD practitioner but then I also I've listened to some of your podcast about the UN you know kind of just falling into the into the into the field.

(28:58) I I worry about people who have just fallen into the field. I do think there's a body of knowledge. I think there's an understanding about how organizations work that if you just kind of fall into it. So there are many people who call themselves OD practitioners and when I have the conversations with them I find out that they HR people who were who are dabbling into doing some development work.

(29:21) The other thing I'm concerned about is the the silo na siloed nature of these various activities. And I'm just just want to a specific example. So so in my mind leadership development has to be an organizational development intervention. If you're going to do leadership development just for skills development for the people who are in leadership roles, but you don't acknowledge that as part of an organizational development activity, I think you miss a trick.

(29:53) And there's way too much leadership development happening in South Africa that is not even looking at the organization. So yeah, I sometimes get a bit worried about the state of OD in South Africa and and I we are in many conversations about it. Um you might want to have a conversation at some point with Craig Yatesman who is my kind of thinking partner in the space.

(30:16) No, I think we see the same thing particularly around the leadership development as a a siloed isolated activity not done in the context of the organization or um yeah that's definitely something we see isn't it Garrett? Oh, it is without a doubt and and I guess it's always curiosity as as to why why why is that because it's a is it a symptom of something else and >> the the symptom it's a symptom of people not understanding the field of organizations >> you know so they would they were they come through the learning and development field I mean even sadly

(30:45) learning development people I so often have conversations around and so who how is this piece of work that you're now going out to on Tinder for for example how is this linked to the organiz organizational goals, what you're trying to do in the organization, how will it change the culture? And they look at me, that's not my brief.

(31:04) My brief is to do this piece of development work over here. I mean, I find it impossible to think, how can you do a piece of development work here? I I find an organization recently, they're doing a big piece of values work, but it's not connected into the organizational development activity. I'm going, how does that happen? How do you how do you think that you can break the organization up into the the values piece, the leadership development piece, the the HR competency piece, and we don't understand it.

(31:32) It's all part of one big process. And I'd love to dig a bit deeper on that because um when we did the preme with you, um one of the things that just really stood out for me is you at the University of Hartford in the early 2000s when you did your doctorate um and this was a really remarkable time in the development of the field.

(31:48) There were they sort of said talk about Ralph Stacy, Patricia Shaw, Douglas Griffin and they were sort of shaping this complexity and management center and if anyone ever read this some amazing books came out of it looking at things like power and whatnot as well. What was that experience like for you and how did how did it shape your world? >> Oh, it was an amazing experience.

(32:07) So, a few a few reasons why it was so amazing is one was you know Ralph was very keen. and he said if we're going to think about organizations as complex responsive processes of relating which is the term that he and Patricia and Doug came up with then we can't study those organizations from the outside we have to be inside the organization and so the idea of a practitioner doctorate in community so we were it was a collaborative inquiry can't remember exactly how many people we started but I think it was something like 25 or 30

(32:39) people who were on this journey together and and who were inquiring both into their own practice but also into the dynamics that got created by us as a community. We became an organization and we we did weird things. And so the the the you know when I when I think about people having to to do a doctorate on their own going that just doesn't resonate with my what I think will be most valuable.

(33:08) Um so the fact that we were doing it in community, we were doing working in small groups, we our practice was changing continuously changing as we were applying our new insights and we were we were doing OD on ourselves and our work through through our our method of study. It's heartbreaking for me to think that the deman program at the center of management complexity is coming to an end now.

(33:37) I think this is the last year because it is the way to study. I don't think I don't I don't think there's another way to do your doctorate in organizational development or social change than than to take your own experience seriously moment to moment. Now that has changed my practice because it's meant that I can't go into a meeting now with taking my own experience seriously and saying what happened in this conversation how do I make sense of this? what was my contribution or or or into a shop in you know in a mall when when when things

(34:10) don't go the way I expect I I dissect I pay attention I say what happened how did we how do I make sense of this so that was an amazing an amazing experience and I will be forever grateful for that opportunity >> and and you did a particular as I understand it a particular specialism working with sort of large group and large group change as well and that is not for the faint of heart is it it's uh It's messy. It's unpredictable.

(34:35) It's sometimes a little bit overwhelming. Like what did you learn during that process and being in the middle of those dynamics in creating change? And how's your practice developed? Because you've also said that you now work with a smaller configuration in terms of like working with groups. >> Yeah.

(34:53) Well, I I work with people who are in organizations and I mean whether you have a small organization or a large organization recently one of the organizations was kind of you know tens of thousands of people but the but the people we worked with have a big impact on all of those people. I think I think for me the the most important thing is that this work has taught me to become very uh aware conscious conscious of of the the dynamics that we create cocreate through our participation in those dynamics and aware of how we are being changed by those dynamics. So we are

(35:30) changing and being changed by the our participation in in these processes. So you know I think we can easily get overwhelmed by the fact that there's you know large numbers but it's the same dynamics. It's the same p there are patterns of behavior. There are stories that be that are being told. People are acting b on on their interpretation of that story that shapes them.

(35:55) It shapes their contribution. And so it just means that this whole system is is available for us to intervene in. And sometimes the opportunity come to intervene at a at the highest level of the organization. This group I worked with this week is is a middle a group of middle managers and they've actually realized actually that gives them so much opportunity to influence because they can influence upwards, they can influence sideways, they can influence downwards, they can influence um so it's about inviting a group of people to to

(36:26) become citizen leaders back to that conversation and and acknowledging their contribution and being very clear around what are the what are the parts of the system And that's working. That's the other thing. I think most organizations are so deficiency focused or focusing on what's wrong.

(36:44) There's so much for us to celebrate and and part of my work over the last few years have really been about acknowledging what's working and what's good and what is worth celebrating and then working together to figure out what do we need to do to you know what needs to be addressed and what needs to change. The the bottom line for me is that as a cons as a as a practitioner, I don't want to you know the word consulting I use the word consulting in my work all the time.

(37:11) I think of a of a myself as a practitioner. As a practitioner when I walk into a space, it's so exciting. It's so exciting to know all the dynamics and what's going on and to get interested and and I think that's what early practitioners need more than anything else is just a very healthy sense of curiosity and curiosity around why how did we get here? What are the factors that contributed to this way of being? >> Do you mind if I just ask you an optional question? Is that okay? Um because one of the things that's really

(37:41) come out from interviewing so many I think we recorded 85 episodes now as as as of today is there's a real link of a lot of the sort of practitioners saying in the early years in their profession they feel a certain amount of imposter phenomenon. Who am I? How do I know I'm doing OD? How do I feel like I'm practicing? And one of the interviews I was watching you sort of said that you know by the age of 40 you've done like four degrees and a doctorate and whatnot as well.

(38:05) And it was a certain amount of feeling like am I good enough to contribute? How do you sort of work alongside people like leading things like Ralph Stacy in that and then go on to find your place in that system as well and and feel like you flourish in your practice? >> So optional question. >> So now I'm going to tell us I'm going to tell a story that that very few people know.

(38:26) Ralph was doing some work in South Africa and just in that time where I was writing up my thesis and and I had some I had things to say but if I had if I was going to say it I feared that I would be shunned from the community because I disagreed with Ralph. There was a very specific dis I was and it had a it was about intentionality and yeah it was a it was about intentionality.

(38:54) So, so I disagreed with Ralph, but I couldn't get myself to say it and I couldn't get myself to write it because I felt who am I to challenge R Stacy. And I don't know whether Rolf knew this at the time, but he came to South Africa and he invited me for coffee and he said, "Uh, Luis, I don't know whether you've got it in you to finish this thing.

(39:13) Oh my word, that's that's like such a dare." And I remember leaving that conversation going, "Stuff you, Rolf, Stacy. I'll show you." and I went back to my office and I wrote all the things that I wanted to say about ROS that I didn't agree with and it kind of just suddenly a whole new world opened up.

(39:32) So I think there's a point for all of us where we just go stuff it. We're not going to hold on to these old stories of you know disempowerment and and imposter. I have a contribution to make and I'm going to bloody well make it now. >> But but but I think there is a certain because you know sometimes it's very easy to be quite hierarchical in OD, isn't there? like you know you got your thought leaders or academics at the top and you know what is my contribution but your perspective really matters doesn't it so you know whatever you are and I

(39:58) you know when I think about my career I think I did some of my best consulting when I was at the very early stage because I was >> I didn't have these assumptions and as well >> a 27 year old daughter and I was telling many of her of the stories about her this week I am so inspired by what this woman is doing she's not she doesn't recognize herself as an OD consultant she is having a massive organizational development impact in the organiz organization that she's working in but partly because she's conscious she's she

(40:25) pays attention she she has been part of the conversations around this so I think the imposttor syndrome come when you're not part of a community where you are taking your own experience seriously it's almost as I I really I really genuinely think that when when practitioners are are committed to paying attention to their practice and sharing it with other people the imposter syndrome will disappear.

(40:52) I I I I genuinely think that because then you kind of start to realize that the work we do has impact and is incredibly valuable, but we it's hard to do that on your own. It's hard to discover that on your own and to know that on your own. And yeah, my my four four degrees was because I wanted my dad to be proud of me and he's he's 90 something.

(41:13) He's not he's never going to say it. So I've kind of also had to accept that that's not going to happen. So move on. So I wanted to ask you, so 2025 is a big year for you. So it's your your 60th birthday year and you've made a kind of conscious decision to really think deeply about kind of your your career so far and you you there's a really good series of articles that you're releasing on LinkedIn.

(41:34) So if people aren't following Louise on LinkedIn, then really do because you're sharing 60 people over the year who've shaped your life so far. U you've mentioned some of them kind of Nancy Klein and Peter Block and they're just really really interesting articles. I really encourage people to do that. What's what's driven you to kind of use this as an opportunity to kind of reflect and and do do that kind of thinking? >> Well, you know, I do think I think well, firstly, I just have a real um I'm I'm very aware of how hard it is for people

(42:02) to hear positive appreciations from other people and and I've got some I mean some of the most amazing people that I know when I try and get them in a room where we acknowledge and appreciate them, they it's excruciating for them. So I think there's some work to be done for all of us to learn to accept appreciation.

(42:20) But again the joy of of facilitating hundreds of flawless consulting workshops, one of the key parts in the flawless consulting workshop is to give each other feedback to give to to hold up the mirror and say you are a gift and a contribution to the world and let me tell you what gifts I'm getting from working with you.

(42:41) It is unbelievable how many people had no idea. They had no idea how much their colleagues enjoy them. They So, so appreciation is is one of the 10 components of a thinking environment. It's it's part of my work in everything that I do. And so I was thinking, how do I how do I make this celebration um an expression of my own theory around acknowledging and appreciating and celebrating? Um and I didn't I'm not going to have a big party cuz I'm going on a diving holiday with my family. So, so that wasn't an option.

(43:13) And I I also at this point in my life really do not need things to be about me anymore. But I have a lot to say about all these amazing people who've contributed to my life. So this the celebrating 60 people at 60 has become just such a joy because I've I've had to kind of go back and think and and and and the stories come from the last 60 years and there are some beautiful stories that I have told and more stories to come.

(43:42) So yeah, so it's it's been an amazing gift for me and it has also created this this beautiful ripple in in our community cuz this morning um the story about uh Colin Hall who passed away last year and we've all been very sad to have lost him because we you know he he was a big figure in all of our lives in um in kind of pulling other people into the conversation that I haven't spoken to for a long time but I know they had a relationship with with Colin.

(44:13) I'm very excited about what might come out of this and and and we'll be seeing this week when how people are responding to that. So, so it's also a way I I've I'm very passionate about this idea of uh strengthening the fabric of our community and so it's another opportunity for us to strengthen the fabric of our community. >> What do you enjoy most about the work that you do? >> Now, this morning I had a call with one of the uh MDs of a company we working in and they were very very stuck.

(44:40) So it was a group of people in a manufacturing um business and and they were just stuck and so we did a intervention with this with them about 6 weeks ago and this morning's call was to get feedback to find out what's going on and I was I couldn't keep the smile on my face because everything she said she said oh my she said Louise that moment was a turning point the organization's never going to be the same again we've been implementing these ideas so it is for me about impact and and knowing that what we're doing has real measurable value

(45:12) and you can you can see the change like weeks and months after the the intervention or during the intervention because I do believe that we need to think have a longer a longer line of of of attention. So when we start to work with people it's not just about what's going to happen this week and you know a a a quick two-day workshop and then everything's done.

(45:38) I we have to come back and we know in you know our practice is is that that phase five in the consulting process it's the reflect it's the what are we learning how are we making sense of this what what do we want to do differently because of the success we've had in August so that was our conversation today she was saying shall we move our reflection session out to October I said no no no no we've just done an amazing piece of work we need to now pause and reflect and and learn from the experience and then can go forward.

(46:07) And then Danny just interestingly a lot of the work the feedback I get we get is that the work we do has lots of impact for people in organizations but in many ways it also impact their relationship with their children and their relationship with their partners. And I celebrate that because I really do think we are not investing enough in our understanding about how families work and what this next generation of children need.

(46:34) And so parents are often doing very stupid things and they're behaving from the same the same story that drive their behavior at work drive their behavior at home. So they become very certain. They tell the children what they should be doing. It's actually very disempowering. Kids don't want to spend time with parents who treat them in that way.

(46:54) I I have two daughters who love to spend time with their parents because we've I've been applying these ideas from when they were very little. what what are some of the more challenging aspects of the work? What do you find challenging? >> So, it's interesting. I think there's also a point I mean I've been practicing for about 40 years now.

(47:11) So, there's a point in your career where every challenge just becomes another juicy opportunity and so challenge so I don't I don't feel so much challenged as I find ooh here's another thing another wonderful opportunity to contribute and make a difference. >> That's a brilliant way to frame it. >> Yeah.

(47:30) Can can I just ask a question on the back of that as well because you mentioned the word earlier stuck and we often get called in when organizations are stuck but prevention is always better than cure isn't it? So when the sometimes stuck is part of the process isn't it? They have to be stuck to feel they be released but if you're inside an organization and you and you you may not know that you need this work but what are some of the symptoms or kind of cues or things that might be sort of demonstrate we need to do this work now? So um so we think that again it comes

(47:59) from Benzander that the K the key performance indicator for great leadership is whether people's eyes are shining and whether we experience joy and whether there's energy and we have a sense of kind of we we we having the we're doing the work that we do doesn't feel painful and and and you know back to the word stuck.

(48:19) So when I hear people word use words like toxicity and low energy and we just not getting the impact that we want and the results are not good enough. Those are the pain points. That's what gives us the some kind of insight and and especially with regard to collaboration. I think nowadays we really have to learn how to work across boundaries.

(48:42) And one of the key enablers for working across boundaries is our willingness to meet each other where we are without judgment and and and with a spirit of curiosity and interest. So again, same you you hear the same themes um over and over again. So, so we get excited when when there's a when a when when a group of people are finding it hard to work because then we go, okay, here's an opportunity for us to learn and do something.

(49:09) I mean, obviously, we're not celebrating the fact that they that it's hard. We we celebrating the the the opportunity to do something different. So, but it does it it it requires a leader. It requires a brave leader because often the leader is part of the challenge and therefore part of the potentially part of the solution. Uh it it requires a brave leader and and I I'm I enjoy it much more if the leaders contact me than the HR team contact me because then there's already been some kind of level of diagnosis.

(49:40) It's when a leader say I'm I'm not comfortable that my team and I have figured out how to work well together or this project is you know this project is at risk because we haven't figured out how to work well together. So that's where where where we can make our biggest contribution. >> One of the things you talk about is the importance of being vulnerable and when we're vulnerable we learn.

(50:02) Um and I was watching an interview that you did with Faith Mangopi. I hope I'm pronouncing her name correctly and he did a really lovely interview. Um and she asked a brilliant question which is can a leader be too vulnerable because often there's a fear within leaders going you know if I if I'm vulnerable then I'm I'm I'm shown weakness and whatnot as well.

(50:19) So it it isn't how it is but we need to work through those beliefs don't we? >> So if we value the relationship relationships require a level of vulnerability and people people negotiate that vulnerability. Um and so I don't think there's a too vulnerable because we will moderate we we moderate our behavior when we become in tune.

(50:43) And maybe that's the thing is that we talk about the the best organizations play people metaphorically play rugby rather than tennis. So in an organization where we play rugby we are attuned to each other. Now you know the South African you know our rugby team's been doing very well. We've been the world champions for a long time.

(51:02) So we have a fantastic example to look at and in that team one of the reasons why the South African this is maybe a trade secret but one of the reasons why the South African rugby team is doing so well is they have invested in their relationships firstly secondly they are incredibly attuned to each other so not a single one of those players play for themselves they play for the team and they are keeping an eye on their colleagues and and they won't just pass the ball without knowing is my colleague ready to take this ball. So they are

(51:35) very attuned and they've learned how to be attuned to each other. Um and and they they play they committed to the team success rather than their individual success. So that's what leaders who are who do that leaders who are attuned to each other who are committed to the team success who create a space where people can flourish and do their best work don't ever have to worry about am I being too vulnerable because because they'll know what to share and what not to share and and and and the system becomes the kind of moderating um

(52:10) contributor to the relationship >> and if a 6'8 120 kilo South African man can be vulnerable then everyone can be vulnerable can't they >> exactly exactly and I mean you know we so we have lots of fun at the at the expense of our very certain South African men but but the other thing that that's in the last few months have become a bit big theme is this just like it's really unattractive to be in the presence of someone who throws their weight around like that and it's it's there very few people who like who enjoy

(52:42) that but it's incredibly attractive to work with leaders who take themselves and how they come across seriously, who invest the effort and time to understand what it will require for them to get the best out of other people. And it's incredibly attractive to be with leaders who are willing to listen and learn rather than always act as if they know and have the answers because we know on some level we know that it's a lie.

(53:08) We know that their bravado is actually just masking something that's that's now not available to us. and therefore feels it's in the dark. So a while ago, one of the guys came to workshop. He said, "Louise, you know what I've discovered? I've discovered that men who listen are attractive." I said, "Exactly, exactly.

(53:28) Just go and tell your friends." >> One question we always like to ask is, "How do you invest in your own learning and development to keep you kind of sharp and and learning? What does that look like for you now at this point in your career?" >> Cuz surely you've mastered everything by now. >> No, I'm continuing to learn.

(53:44) So a few things I do believe again it's a it's my commitment to to walk my own talk. I take my own experience seriously. So when I get when when things are s when I'm surprised by either how well things are or did worked or didn't work I write I write in full sentences. I think that we learn, human beings learn and make sense of the world through the process of articulation.

(54:13) And I articulate either in full sentences on my journal or I articulate in the presence of a thinking partner. So again, Nancy clients work around time to think and so I have a series of thinking partners who I would call. This morning I had a thinking partnership conversation or a thinking session. And because I'm I'm I'm I have to make a decision about something and I'm not entirely sure how to make the decision and I needed to to hear myself think about it in her presence cuz she I know she cares about me. Um and in doing that

(54:45) I learned so much about myself. I learned something about the client. And then that led to three more conversations because I suddenly realized that I needed to invite other people into this conversation. I have another conversation coming up in a very shortly after this conversation. So for me and then I read I mean I'm a ferocious reader.

(55:05) Um but the the starting point is is to write and to to make sense of the experience in a way that gives me access to new insights. Often I write and I go my word I had no idea that's what I think. And again that comes from doing that having done that doctorate with R Stacy because that was my experience.

(55:26) you would write and then suddenly just come to new insights that you just didn't even know was there. >> Fabulous. And you've mentioned various kind of books and reference materials. Are there any particular books or resources you recommend to to listeners to go and look up? >> Definitely. So firstly, Art of Possibility by Ben and Rosander.

(55:44) Best leadership book ever. Nancy Klein wrote three books. The first one is and and what I'm giving you now is the curriculum of 90 90% of the leadership programs we do have these books as their you know this is our our workshops are based on these books so Nancy Klein's book first book is time to think then more time to think and lastly the promise that changes everything but if you're going to start start with the first one and then read the second one and the third one Peter Block flawless consulting best book for anybody in the

(56:16) world of OD if you not read uh flawless consulting I think you're doing yourself a disservice and his second book the book that actually led me to him is called community the structure of belonging an amazing book and definitely worth reading and then in the last few years and this is post partners for possibility uh we have come across Jolie's book um the heart of business so now we have found the heart of business just pulls everything together it's the most amazing way to end a leadership journey is to reflect on um that book

(56:51) and and to look at the parallels between the book and the experience of people in the organization. >> Brilliant. Some really rich reading there as well. And we want to just finish with the same question we ask every practitioner that comes on is what advice would you give someone who's just starting out in organization development now? So they could be that HR person looking into ODAN, there has to be another way or they, you know, they're just being curious about OD.

(57:16) what what advice would you give them? And we're asking you to give advice, by the way. >> Thank you. Thank you. So, so firstly, read Flores Consulting. I mean, I really think I I I I can't imagine an OD person into the world without having got that foundational understanding of and I and read that book with the expectation to mine like every second page has some gold dust. Make the mark.

(57:43) Second thing is join a community and uh you know if you're lucky enough to to live in the UK or US where there are amazing communities join a community go to the conference and go and attend some courses do the 101 of organizational development make sure that you understand the field before you assume that because you come from HR you understand the field.

(58:08) There is a body of knowledge and it's worth studying the body of knowledge and sign up to the orde podcast on YouTube so that you can continue to be challenged on a very regular basis and you know the work that Gavin you and Danny are doing is just it's phenomenal and I I just don't want any practitioner to miss out on being part of your community as well.

(58:30) >> We just want to say a huge thank you Louise. It's been such a brilliant conversation. It really has. when when I said introduce you as the remarkable like it you genuinely are. Um I've had goosebumps at numerous points during this conversation today. Danny, what are you taking away from today's conversation? >> It's going to be one of those top episodes I think we've recorded and it's one I want to listen back to already.

(58:52) It's like I just want to go back and listen to that again and that's always a really good sign. So I think I really love the conversations about citizen leadership and the importance of kind of helping people become citizens rather than consumers. I think what you talked about the kind of importance of stories and people realizing they're co-owning and co-creating their own realities is something we can kind of really lean on and the importance of rethinking our stories about what leadership is and how we develop leaders and we can't do that

(59:17) in silos that there's many more I could go on G I'll steal all yours. >> Yeah. My my I've got so many takeaways and I've I've thoroughly enjoyed researching this uh interview. Um some of the things that have come out from this conversation is like the the KPI for your team is do your do your team's eyes shine and that being a sign of good leadership.

(59:34) I think you know sometimes we we get overwhelmed by data don't we and it's like well no you can actually see it viscerally can't you your mess becomes your message I think should be doctrine for a lot of people and actually asking do you want to know what I think because again you sort of said they will come back to you eventually anyway because they'll be curious but in the moment you've actually defined the relationship in a slightly different way haven't you >> when I say to my daughter do you want to know what I think she often tests me she

(1:00:01) says no I'm not interested and if I then honor that. No, chances are that she's going to come back soon and I am interested. But her first, she first tests me. She says, "Can you hold your mouth if I say no?" And I tell you that was hard for me. And it's still hard. But that's the test is can we honor their no? And even because everybody always says, "Yeah, but I want to stop them from making the mistakes.

(1:00:28) " That's not your job. You can't stop anybody from making the mistakes. you can contribute to their thinking if they are willing to hear you. If they're not willing to hear you and you just dump your stuff on them, you they're going to resist you. I mean, what's useful in that? >> And and the last thing you mentioned, I think is really important, is meet them where they are.

(1:00:46) I think that's that's one of the big things and and that's a huge mantra that we forget sometimes. We can overintellectualize things and we're coming from a different place. Meet people where they are and that's where the journey begins. If people want to follow your work, if they want to explore all the brilliant, incredible projects that you're involved in, you do an excellent LinkedIn newsletter that we really enjoy reading as well.

(1:01:07) What's the best way for people to reach out to you and potentially, you know, engage you to come work with them? >> Well, I'd love that. >> So, the I I have discussed now I've I used to be really bad at LinkedIn. I think LinkedIn has become a real mainstay for my work now. So, best way is follow me on LinkedIn, send me a direct message. I will respond.

(1:01:26) That's how we got connected. Um, and um, yeah, and I mean, you've now got me thinking, I'm going to be in the UK soon. We might want to we might want to arrange a flawless consulting workshop when I'm there because it is it is a it is a lifechanging two-day workshop. We get that feedback all the time. So, let's keep in touch about that possibility.

(1:01:46) >> All of the things that you shared with us today, um, we'll put all of the links in the show notes. If you do want to reach out to Louise, if you want to explore more about her work, um the programs that she runs, then please do check it out in the show notes as well, whether you're listening to this on audio or you're watching on the video as well.

(1:02:01) For those of you that watching, one of the things that we just are so impressed about is the number of shares that we get. So, if you're watching this and you know someone who you think would benefit from listening to Louise insights, wisdom, and experience, and knowhow, then please do share it with them. It's one of the great things. We're now in 89 countries, Dannydeed, which is brilliant.

(1:02:20) Which just reflects the appetite for organization development around the world, which is brilliant. And Louise, I think your interview takes a really wellplaced position in our portfolio of brilliant guests that we've had so far as well. So Louise, I want to say a huge thank you. It's been a real honor and it was really nice time to talk to you as well as you're reflecting back on your career as well and the people that have influenced you.

(1:02:40) So, so thank you so much on behalf of everyone who's watching the podcast today. So, thank you. >> And a big thank you for me to from me as well. It's been an amazing conversation.