Design Thinking for Real-World Workplace Problems with Giles Wright - OrgDev Episode 86

How Can Design Thinking Solve Your Organisation's Most Intractable Problems?
Design thinking has transformed how we approach products and services - but what does it really look like when we apply it to people, culture, and organisations?  How do we move from post-it notes and empathy maps to real organisational change?  To explore the intersection between design thinking and organisation development, we’re joined by Giles Wright – an experienced practitioner who’s helped leaders and organisations use design principles to rethink systems, services and culture  

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We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

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Transcript

(00:00) Hi and welcome to the org dev podcast. So design thinking has transformed how we approach products and services. But what does it really look like when we apply it to people, culture, and organizations? How do you move from post-it notes and empathy maps to real organizational change? To explore the intersection between design thinking, and organization development, we're joined by the brilliant Giles Wright.

(00:23) Jars is an experienced practitioner help leaders and organizations use design principles to rethink systems, services, and culture. Charles has been applying design thinking long before it became a buzzword, and he's passionate about how it can transform the way organizations work.

(00:38) Charles is a seasoned design leader with over 20 years of experience navigating complexity across private, public, and not for-p profofit sectors. He's the founder and director of From Here, and it's on a mission to make human- centered design affordable and accessible for nonprofits. Charles has a degree in product design and a career spanning national programs, integrated care systems and organization transformation.

(01:00) And his approach blends systems thinking, inclusive design and organizational strategy as well. And his work has tackled really big questions which are fascinating such as how might we shift perceptions of palative care and create services that are positive experience and how might we protect 12,000 frontline staff from CO 19 and how might we imagine volunteering.

(01:20) So, a huge thank you for joining us on a Friday afternoon, Charles. We're really looking forward to this call. >> Thanks for having me. It's uh it's really exciting to be here. I'm just going to be honest about that. It's great. >> We're really excited to have you with us as well. We've we've got lots of questions.

(01:40) This is an area we've been kind of keen to explore. So, I think we're going to have a really good conversation. So, Garren gave us a bit of a kind of headline of what you do, but could you just expand on that a little bit more and bring it to life for us? what what is the work that you're doing or do? >> Yeah, sure.

(01:53) So, um so I think design runs through my veins. So, it's I call it work, but actually it's just joy. It's just what I love doing. It's it's natural to me. Um what what I'm commissioned to do is to work with clients that um have an idea of the change they want to make. um whether it's a structural change or a service change or some sort of transformation in in their organization, they're struggling with the how to do it and how to land it well.

(02:22) Um so often what I found is people can articulate what they're trying to achieve. They can often articulate why they want to achieve it, what's driving it, and then really struggle with the how and they get quite fearful about doing stuff. Um there's two purposes, isn't there, to most organizations.

(02:39) one is deliver on on your goal, your mission and two is to derisk it, make it as low risk as possible, right? So in the charity sector particularly, obviously funding is is tight and and you know, nobody wants to waste money. So so doing the how really well in a way that it's going to land um as positively as possible is is the bit I think I help the most with.

(02:58) >> And then we've used that term design thinking. Not everybody will know what we mean by that and there will be lots of different variations of what we mean by that. So how do you define design thinking? And what are the kind of core principles for you? >> Yeah, so design thinking is is a label. You're right.

(03:14) And as practitioners, we like to put labels on things we do, don't we? That's that's kind of how we feel special, I think. So design thinking, human- centered design, good design, all of it is pretty much the same thing. It's about getting you from here to where you want to be in a way that involves people, gives genuine insight, creates fresh ideas, exciting possibilities, but then crucially does it.

(03:39) So design is a is a verb and a noun, right? So design isn't the kind of shiny thing that spits out the other end. It's also a process that gets there and it's about answering the brief and and delivering against the problem. For me, design thinking is special because it actually starts by designing the problem before designing the solutions.

(03:58) And what I mean by that is often clients will say this is the problem. This is the frame that we want you to enter our system with. design thinking takes a step back and goes, "Is that actually the problem? Let's just check that. Make sure it is that." And and sometimes actually people have a light bulb moment in the room and go, "Uh, that's not the problem, is it? It's actually that, right? Cool.

(04:21) Let's lean into that and deal with that." Sometimes it is spot on and it's pretty straightforward and you work with that. But then design thinking opens up. It diverges our thinking. It helps us to be really creative and wide ranging about our idea generation and then crucially converge that down because organizations need to get to a point.

(04:41) We can't just drift around in ideas all the time. We have to take them forward. So it then narrows them down and we test stuff and we try stuff and we evolve it and then we launch it and then guess what we go back and evolve it and play with it again and keep it fresh. >> Fabulous. And then one of the things we said this is about the kind of the is it like the intersection between design thinking and organization development or kind of the overlap.

(05:03) Um what does that look like for you kind of bringing the two disciplines together? >> Yeah. So I so I I'm genuinely really excited about it and I I've been on a bit of a journey. So I qualified as a designer as the intro said back in sort of the early 2000s and I was really privileged to be in a degree course with a course leader um Mike Goatman who was forward thinking was bringing in the ideas the likes of IDO were having about human- centered design and and sort of new new vision for design and design thinking then was very much about

(05:33) products and services to an extent I think it's been on a bit of a journey and there's other authors that have written books about how you can apply it to organizations dynamics and organizational design. So the technal bit of OD. So I think that's where it intersects for me. It's it's about designing the intangibles just like we design tangibles.

(05:55) So the process is very similar and actually org development. I've worked with organ development practitioners that do very much the psychology and the team dynamics work. That's not so much my bag, but I can see our process and our thinking is quite similar. you do your diagnostics, you do your defining, you do your development of interventions and then you test them and and see what and measure and see what you get.

(06:16) So I think there's quite a few commonalities. I think design thinking for me is rooted in the kind of like I say the real nitty-gritty of the the how and the what and and kind of landing stuff and trying stuff and creating it with people um rather than kind of applying lots of theory and practice and that's valid too.

(06:41) It's just slightly different in my space. >> And I know when we did the prem you gave us some really lovely examples of the work that you've been involved in which I think really kind of brought it to life for me kind of what it means in practice. So I think there was the co example wasn't there. Can you explain a bit more about that to bring it to life for people? >> Yeah.

(06:57) So yeah, so I've I've worked in health sector for about 18 years or so, private sector before that. And when COVID hit, I was working in the NHS and I was leading um workforce well-being. Uh it was a portfolio I had um as a senior leader. I've always applied design thinking whatever the portfolio is that I've had or the subject matter expertise that I've I've been asked to have.

(07:20) So when COVID landed it was like okay Jars how are we going to protect the 12,000 staff that work in our organization in a large teaching acute hospital? It's kind like right whiteboard scribble think. And for me again design thinking it's about knowledge that already exists in a system but it's crucially about developing new knowledge knowledge that doesn't yet exist.

(07:42) So we don't know the answers. Covid, we didn't know the answer. We didn't know how to roll out a mass vaccination program. It had never been done on that scale in this country or in the world. In fact, we didn't know how to mass test for COVID. CO hadn't existed before. So all these things were new problems that needed new novel solutions and they were massively steeped in complexity.

(08:05) And again, design thinking loves complexity. It loves ambiguity. It loves working through answers or or working through to get to answers to to play it out. Danny, basically designers don't have the answers. They have the questions and a process and some tools. So my role was to convene people that would have some knowledge and could create the new knowledge.

(08:27) So we had clinical specialists, scientists, operational people, facilities people, technology people, so on and so forth in a room and we said, "Right, here's our problem. Do we agree this is our problem? Yes, it is. And it that that actually was quite clear. How do you roll out a vaccination, the novel vaccine to a huge population in record-breaking time? Pretty clear brief.

(08:53) What we did was um we we looked at the technical. So you look at the technology, you look at the medicine management, you look at the clinical practice, safety, all those things. But also think about what is this system? And the system is a large volume of people going through a particular space and a particular intervention pretty quickly hopefully low stress really effectively and have good flow. That was pretty much it.

(09:17) And by the way, don't harm them and don't give them COVID. So they were the parameters and the things we were working with. Right. So how do you do that? Well, we don't know how to do it for COVID vaccination. But we do know that other events exist in life where large volume of people, go to something, go through it well and have a good experience and come out the other side.

(09:36) So big music events or you know theaters or whatever sports event. Well, let's what can we nick from that then? How can we apply that stuff to this and then wrap around the technical? So I think that's quite a good example. you kind of look far and wide for ideas that you could borrow. Although they don't directly apply, there's enough synergy there and then you work out the detail.

(09:57) And then ultimately what we did was designed it, created it, set it up and then prototyped rapidly. So we knew that we were safe. We knew that the fundamentals were were strong and good. What we then prototyped was the flow through the clinics, the way people booked, uh the information that was given, the signage, how do we usher people through the space physically well all those and we tweaked those and we just prototyped and prototyped and prototyped um almost on a sort of 3 four hourly basis right at the beginning and

(10:28) that's how you do it. There's loads of fascinating things that you've shared there and and the solution seems brilliant like look bringing the outside in and looking at it from other models like this is not a medical problem. This is actually you know it's an entertainment enterainment industry have dealt with this well I'm I'm really interested about how you actually convene people it's one thing to bring clinicians and scientists and nurses and administrators how do you make the magic happen like is it like how do you even

(10:54) go about doing it? Yeah, I think that's the age-old the age old challenge for any of our work in OD, isn't it really? Um, and change generally. So, I think for co it was slightly unique in that there was a common enemy that united everybody and it was a very clear purpose. So, I think that was the the helpful narrative really that we all working with.

(11:14) I think in other other times, other places, other problems, it's different. It it's not always everybody around the table enthusiastic, ready to go and fight the fight. Sometimes you have to work with that narrative and help people understand that there is a problem and agree that there is a problem or get them from denial or get them from confusion and and work for it.

(11:35) And that's the skill of convening. And I think again that's one of the lovely intersections with the work that I'm doing is the skill in OD intervention is to get people on board and work with the system and the problem and the challenge. And it's the same for design and design thinking. What I have found is taking people on a through a process.

(11:56) So we could talk about double diamond design process but essentially taking people on a journey through problem to solution in creative ways in facilitative approaches giving them some tools and does start to get some energy and enthusiasm and and then you kind of get into the real work. So just entering people into a spirit of how might we do this is a really nice journey to go on.

(12:17) And you've mentioned the the famous double diamond which is something that people might be familiar um for some people that are on their first steps of understanding what this is. Could you just give us a bit of a walk through about how the model works and how it all comes together? >> Yeah, so it's a model that's um around in various versions but there is a design council kind of licensed and copyrighted protected version which which is great and there's a good framework on their website if people aren't familiar and want to go and have

(12:40) a look. It's it's a really good tool. Essentially, it is literally a diagram which is two diamonds and you start with your exploring problem and challenge and then the the reason they're diamonds is you diverge out with your thinking and exploration and then you converge back in to define what you're working on and with and then you diverge out again to idea generate and then you converge back again to select some ideas that you're going to take through to prototyping and then you test and then you develop and

(13:10) then you launch. Now, that's a really lovely linear simple model. In reality, of course, you go around in cycles and you might go back to the start a bit like Monopoly. You might get sent back to go or you might have to go kind of back one step to go forward too. And that and that's the skill in it really is navigating that that process and and like I say journey with people.

(13:29) What I will say is in the middle, so if you think left to right, so left is the kind of problem that you're working with. In the middle is the defining it so you can then start to answer it. And the far right is the kind of outcome or the output at least. So sort of the the thing that you're going to change.

(13:47) Quite often clients and organizations generally whether you're internal or external consultant they will enter you into the thing in the middle. So they will have a defined what they believe a defined issue is or set of symptoms or problem. again design thinking you enter the system there but actually like I said earlier you go back to is that really the challenge is that the problem and one of the best ways to do that it's been it's not mine and it's been around for a long time but I still love it and I worked with a group on Friday doing it

(14:18) and it's it's so exciting when it works apply five W's. So if I say Garen Danny my problem is blah blah blah and you say why I then answer you say why again and again again. The depth of thinking and thought and reflection and detail and insight is quite remarkable actually and people often will say we don't have time to explore these problems.

(14:42) We've just got sort how long does it take to do five wise like 10 minutes quarter of an hour maybe in in proper detail >> and it gets you such a different starting point. Um, which is which is very exciting. I had somebody on Friday say, "Oh, that's not the problem, is it? That's the problem." And you're like, >> but it's great because then they're energized.

(15:03) So, back to your point before, how do you energize people and get them involved? Get them to where the real crux of the thing is cuz then they suddenly get a gut feeling of, okay, cool, let's do this. So if you sort of take you go through the process, does it have like one project lead and it's the same people throughout the process or do people sort of step in and step out as you go through the the the process? >> Yeah, I think I think it varies depending what the problem is.

(15:28) often you will have one convenor um so whether it that's me being asked to facilitate or somebody internally with some support shadow consulting normally you have one convenor that that holds it all together throughout and we'll oversee it and you generally have some sort of project management person or capability around it as well just to make sure that you you move things through but we're not a gant chart process it doesn't quite work like that and then you'll have subject matter experts so um when When you're idea generating, you want as many

(15:58) different skills and backgrounds and perspectives as you can get and you want to use all of them and see if you can put them together to make something that's much more um uh you know robust and multifaceted. When you get into prototyping, you might change. So it might be that actually a technical person is the person that needs to create the thing to prototype it.

(16:19) Um and other people will step back. um you might have somebody that's particularly good at ethnographic research or observation or measurement. They might take the lead at that point to see what what it's doing and is it doing what it should be doing. So I think sort of the further you go on in the process, you probably are narrowing down and using subject matter expertise.

(16:37) >> One question I was just wondering there as well. So how would someone know that they need some design thinking? you know, as I'm as I'm faced by this Titanic problem. I've got to get 12,000 people through this thing and I can't give them co do they go through the rolodex and go right uh okay trainers no learning and development no design thinkers like how do I know that it's a design thinking issue? >> So I think I think it's the best kept secret out there actually in some ways.

(17:04) So there was a guy called Roger Martin in 2009 wrote a book um uh business business of design I think it's called or something similar and basically said look design thinking used in organizations like Proctor and Gamble for example is revolutionizing how how they innovate and how they land good products and good services and actually everybody should be learning this in their leadership development portfolio.

(17:29) It's kind of a key skill and you know you don't necessarily need specialists but everyone should have some understanding that hasn't really progressed. So there's an academic um uh Ida Engh in in sort of 2019 I think did a study of design thinking this so-called design thinking thing where's it showing up how's it showing up and she said okay it's got roots in kind of graphics and products originally and then it moved into sort of services and and stuff and then it's moved into kind of organizations teams and systems and

(18:02) it could actually work on much bigger population size challenges or countries or even the world kind of climate change types. But in reality in 2019, 90% of design thinking or design thinking and doing was still focused on the kind of graphics to sort of services type stuff and only 10% really in organizations and and system change and design.

(18:26) So I think it's still pretty out there. So I don't think most leaders in most organizations will go, I need a design thinker. Where's the yellow pages? I just don't think it's like that. I think what they do is they go, "We've got a problem. We need a creative solution. Who's around that's good at making stuff happen? Who's good at problem solving?" And actually, when I looked at my value proposition out there, I'm not really selling myself as a design thinker or a human- centered designer.

(18:53) I did start that, funny enough, and I gave myself a label and an identity, but actually what it is is people just want effective problem solving. That's kind of it. And this is a great way of doing it. Hi, we're just pausing this interview for a moment. Have you ever finished an episode of the org dev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points? Us two, so we made one.

(19:16) It's called from pod to practice. And each week in our newsletter will share a two-page summary of the latest org dev episode, and it includes key takeaways, a reflection prompt, and one small action you can try. >> And it's all in a digital format with space at the end to add your own notes and reflections. and it's designed to help you take the learning from the podcast into your day-to-day work.

(19:35) So to get your copy, just sign up to our next step to better newsletter. The links in the show notes, or you can visit our website at www.distinction.live to get the latest from pod to practice in your inbox and let us know what you think. We'd love to get your feedback. >> So Charles, what was your journey into the field? You've had a fascinating career today, haven't you? >> Yeah, I've had Well, fascinating is one description for it, Gary.

(19:56) It might be also called squiggly. I don't know. Um you can be the judge, but yeah. So, um, so one of one of the things I've learned from OD is is kind of use of self and self-reflection and and I'm quite a big fan of that. And I've done a fair bit of that over the last year or so and kind of working out where I've come from and why and how I've ended up where I've ended up.

(20:18) I think kind of going back, not wanting to turn this into a therapy session, but kind of going back to where I started as a young young person, as a child, I was quite a poorly kid. I had a lot of quite severe asthma and I spent time off school and I had to be plugged into a nebulizer to get meds and all that kind of stuff.

(20:33) And and I spent a lot of time with a tray on my lap and just kind of doodling and drawing and making stuff like lots of kids do, I guess, but I did it kind of on an Uber scale. And I remember designing kind of fictitional businesses and products and shops and all sorts of random stuff and brands and things.

(20:53) So I think that's kind of where it started. It was this sort of getting in my own world or my own space and kind of creating it. It was quite quite good fun and probably a bit weird for most average kids, but it worked for me. Um, and there was a bit of skill development, I guess, in there as well, kind of drawing and stuff.

(21:09) And then fast forward into school, um, I didn't like primary school. I quite enjoyed senior school. I liked tech and I got introduced to design, technology, and art and all those good things. And they were by far my favorite subjects. And then I thought, oh, I might might be an architect.

(21:25) I quite like the idea of creating buildings and structures and stuff. Then I kind of went, seven years, I'm not so sure I want to study for seven years. That seems a bit heavy. Uh what else? Basically, I went to college and did graphic design and I kind of wanted to step out of the school environment in something else and a bit more freedom.

(21:41) I went to art college. Absolutely loved it. Just getting kind of covered in stuff and making things out of bits of card and all that kind of it was great. It was like playtime for teenagers and it was kind of getting something out of it as well qualification and then there was something about the tangible.

(21:58) So this is this sort of interesting journey of something about making things and solving physical problems. So I went to university and I started product design. But when I was there like I said earlier when I was there it was introduced to human centeredness kind of seeing the world through the lens of the people you're trying to impact and and improve lives for.

(22:19) And my major project was in a piece of paramedic equipment because I wasn't really into kind of designing phones and headphones and shiny stuff. I kind of wanted to solve the world's problems and um kind of do things that mattered to lives. And I went and spent time with paramedics and observed that it was really difficult for them to lug all their kit around and they had team bags and I said to them, "Oh, I've noticed this.

(22:43) would it be would it be useful if you had kind of like one trolley like a suitcase with everything in but like really well organized? They said, "Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that would be great." So, I designed that and prototyped it and we tested it and and that's what I created and and it was brilliant. I loved it. Uh and then I went to be a designer for a bit and I was designing kind of bits of plastic which it was fun.

(23:03) I was a designer and I'd qualified and got a job but it didn't really satisfy me, you know, on a personal level. I went into brand and marketing and and it was great and and you know it paid the bills again. It didn't really sit with my values. It was kind of about profit and product cycles and stuff. And then I went into health.

(23:24) So I went into hospice and I got a job as head of comms and I kind of talked my way into it and sort of said well I think it's about communication. I think it's about kind of problem solving and selling stuff with integrity and telling good stories. And by the way I've got a graphics qualification. They were like that's great.

(23:40) you can do stuff as well as kind of you know all the writing bit you can make things. So I did that and I did for 5 years and because it was a voluntary sector organization and and a charity and relatively small organization I got involved in all kinds of stuff including service design and I had a great chief exec mentor who said oh I think we could do better with day therapy services and sort of daycare for end of life care patients.

(24:04) Do you want to have a go at designing something with the team? And I was kind of like, "Yeah, great. You think I can?" And yeah, brilliant. And we did. And we went on that process, that double diamond process basically. And we worked it through and we brought patients in. Like people nearing the end of their lives, you can't involve them.

(24:18) Like they really wanted to shape services and like they didn't want us to make that decision for them. They wanted to be asked and then involved and and so we did and it was great. And families and all sorts of it. It's a real human- centered stuff in reality in some of the most difficult circumstances for individuals, but it was rewarding and energizing and we got to a much better result as as much better outcome as a result.

(24:44) So I did that and did 5 years and then my mentor said kind of go somewhere else, spread your wings, go and try different systems, different scale go and I went into um into a really large hospital and I went into volunteering and they said can you transform volunteering and I said well I've come from a voluntary sector organization.

(24:59) Yeah, I think I have a go at that. So I transformed volunteering and we put volunteering onto the map and gave it a profile and professionalized it and took them through a change journey and then they said could you do that for occupational health. So I went to occupational health and did it for occupational health then well-being kind of what's workforce well-being in the modern organization in frontline challenges and and so on and I did it for that and then co came along and we've talked about COVID and and then I moved sort of into OD after that

(25:26) and kind of employee experience design and employee engagement design. How do you purposely design a value proposition for a workforce that retains them but also satisfies their needs, meets their needs and and makes them proud to be in an organization and advocate for an organization and and be effective in an organization. So I did that as well.

(25:49) So design thinking is the thread that's always run through it. just played it out in different circumstances, in different ways. And then I've kind of gone, I've always wanted to do this on my own, and I really love charities, and I'm really feeling a pull back to the nonprofit sector, and they're having such a rough time.

(26:06) Funding's harder and services are more in demand, and >> I really think design thinking could help and have some value for people, and how can I do that affordably for them with them? Um, so that's where I'm at now. So yeah, real squiggly career but design running right through it like a spine I think.

(26:23) And one of the things she talks about there it's been it's a fascinating journey but you were talking about volunteers there and we know that a few of the people that actually uh watch this they work in not for profofits they they really rely on the volunteering workforce as well >> but volunteering doesn't often have a home within an organization you know does it sit in HR does it sit in another part of the organization how do you go about creating a sense of belonging and inclusion for volunteers so they're out in the field and they feel part of

(26:49) something they're not actually employed by. Is it possible? >> Yeah, it's completely possible. It's not easy, but it is completely possible. My first experience of volunteers and leading managing volunteers was in in the hospice. Interesting ratio. We had about 100 staff at that time of 500 volunteers.

(27:10) So volunteers were the everything. They were the energy, the lifeblood, you know, the capacity, all of that stuff. So it was it was a good dynamic to get immersed in and introduced. managing volunteers is quite tricky. You know, these people are giving up their time and and you know, enthusiastically giving of themselves and kind of how do you manage those? You don't have the same contractual levers or incentives or whatever.

(27:33) So, you have to tap in again human- centered, you have to tap into what their motivations are and what their belief systems are and their values and why are they doing it. It's that why question again. And then what do you do to get all the organizational bureaucracy and barriers out the way to enable them to do it but to do it well and to do it safely you have to have some governance.

(27:52) So so that was my kind of learning I guess and then I took that into into the NHS and when I joined they had a good volunteering program and and there was sort of some young people that were doing it to get experience of working in a hospital because they wanted to go on and be nurses and doctors and so on. And there were some um sort of I guess stereotypical older volunteers that were doing it because they wanted to keep active and they wanted to give something back to to society and they wanted to be helpful. The challenge was that there

(28:20) was a perception of volunteers that they couldn't do certain things because they weren't paid because they weren't um qualified because they were sporadic i.e. you know, less than part-time, uh, didn't have relationships, connections, trust, all that kind of stuff. So, that was a that was like, you know, that's a problem statement.

(28:43) Again, it's like that's a just begging for a design solution. How might we change those things cuz fundamentally believe that actually volunteers could be a really good useful part of the workforce that would work for them and for patients and for the organization. So set about talking to them, watching them, listening to them, working out what the barriers were, what the issues were, how could we build trust, how could we build competence and capability, how could we build connections and relationships, how could we design new things that they

(29:14) could do that were answering real problems that our paid staff had or patients were experiencing. So lots of observation, lots of listening, lots of talking, lots of relationship building both with volunteers but also paid staff, clinical staff, ward staff. And then get a set of things like tasks. How do you do that stuff? How do you design training? How do you professionalize them? How do you put them on the map? How do you give them a profile? How do you give them a brand? How do you give them an identity? And again looked out

(29:41) looked where can we do that? Who does that well? Um how do you design belonging? And at that time Starbucks was kind of saying our Starbucks is the third place, right? The third place. So you have home, you have work, and then you have Starbucks in the middle, which is where you kind of go for a drink and to meet people and maybe you do a bit work there or whatever. Okay, cool.

(30:00) How could the hospital be the third place for volunteers? So they have their social life, they have their family and home life and then they come and do volunteering, the third place. And that's what we did. We created it as a third place. So we literally created an environment that was welcoming and friendly.

(30:15) And I had a very small team but they were there to be like baristas welcoming and you know uh creating relationship and getting to know people and talk to them like human. So we did that stuff and then we learned from Starbucks how like how do you create a brand and identity. So we got them into uniform.

(30:34) We made them feel professional because they looked professional. We put them out into the into the rest of the hospital and people started seeing them in this bright red thing that wasn't a color used in the hospital and it had volunteer very proudly emlazed on it and then they became the thing and people trusted them for being a thing and having a profile and a present and then we wrapped around the governance.

(30:56) So, we trained them really well and we said, "We can train volunteers. They're perfectly capable of learning. Let's do some training." And then we taught them sort of skills and and we got them assessed by clinical people so they felt confident they could go and feed patients or they could help with personal care or whatever it was that they were doing.

(31:13) And we prototyped and then we tweaked and we adjusted and then word spread. And actually, I think one of the best things we did was um we put a massive board up in the main entrance of the hospital that said volunteers are here to help you get to your appointment. Because that was a huge patient experience issue. It was a massive site, loads of clinics and places to get to.

(31:31) And it was a real headache. And we put volunteer guides in and we said, "They're here." And within about 2 3 weeks, patient complaints were dropping and improvements were coming up and experience um positive experience was coming up and people were saying, "This is brilliant. It's taking the anxiety out of my hospital admission.

(31:48) It's taking, you know, I was running late and the car park was busy and I was really afraid I was going to miss this crucial appointment I've waited time for, but you got me there. Or, you know, taking your child in that's having a tough time and just seeing a smile and somebody that looked like their grandparent or their brother or sister taking them with with them to their appointment was kind of human.

(32:10) And and again, it's that human- centeredness approach, >> right? And I can attest to this because my youngest was born as Adam Brooks where this was carried out and I spent many hours walking around Adam Brooks and and I can attest to we went to appointments. It almost felt the same support you get in a marathon getting to an appointment in terms of volunteers cheering you on.

(32:28) You can do this because Adam Brooks is like a city. It's a huge huge place. Um one question I just wanted to ask on the back of that. Um one thing that you talked about there is observation. Now that's a very often overlooked element. You know, we run focus groups. We love to interview people, but to actually observe people in the field and get a feel for what's it like? How do you do it? Like what's good practice to observe and what are you looking for? What are you noticing? >> Yeah.

(32:56) Yeah. I'm not I'm not personally a fan of focus groups. I think they're fine to a point. It's like most things, they've got a purpose and they will get you an answer, but is it the the answer that you need? Is it enough of a of a tool? Generally, when you ask people what is it they want or need, they'll give you something, but it might not be the answer to the actual problem.

(33:14) It's back to what we were saying earlier. So, there's an example of a vacuum cleaner company, remain nameless, that was holding focus groups and they were saying, "Oh, you know what? What's the problem with this thing?" And people were saying, "Well, the brush head could be pointy cuz then it could get into the corners of the room.

(33:32) " And they say, "Fine, we'll make a pointy one. That's fine. Um, what color would you like it to be? Oh, could it be red?" cuz blue's all right, but it doesn't Yeah, red would be quite cool. It would be a bit more sexy. Yeah, fine. We'll make it red. And anything else? Well, it's Yeah, it could be a bit taller so that I don't have to bend quite so much.

(33:48) Okay, we'll make it tall. Dyson said, you know, I've noticed the thing is like vacuum cleaners, they just don't clear up everything. Isn't that kind of pointless and annoying? I'm just going to make them work better and then try and see if that helps and see what people think. And guess what? he became market leader and people absolutely loved it.

(34:07) They had no idea that they had a problem, but he did and then they knew that it was a problem because this thing now works better than it's ever worked before. So that's a really nice example of focus groups will give you an answer, but actually observing and then testing and trying some different stuff out might get you a better answer.

(34:25) Um, so yeah, I'm I'm a fan of observation. I think designers are naturally curious. I think designers are naturally optimistic, possibly even a little bit naive. We think we can always change something and always make something better, but you kind of have to have that belief, right? And that's on behalf of a system as long as it's with good motivation and and purpose. I think that's fine.

(34:44) Um, so yeah, observe. You can ask and you should ask and you should listen really really well and listen more than you ask probably or speak, but that's not enough on its own. >> A question I had particularly working in nonprofits obviously you know hugely under pressure, limited resources, everything feels urgent.

(35:03) How do you how do you make the case for for engaging in design thinking which people might perceive as you it's going to take time, we're going to experiment, we're going to fail. Have we got time to do that? Have we got resources to do that? How do you address that challenge? >> Yeah, I think so. I think it's it's not dissimilar to any kind of business that's wanting to make an investment and nervous about it because of potential loss or return.

(35:24) I think you kind of have to spin it on its head and go, do we have the money and the time to afford to waste? No, we don't. we probably have less of it than we've had before. So actually getting something right first time and trying to reduce the risk of what we're doing is really really important and that's what design thinking does and it does it well because you're going to test something that's got real insight with people that really know the answers and have the answers and I fundamentally believe that the people that work in these

(35:51) organizations are the ones that have the answers along with the people that they're trying to serve and look after and care and support. They have the answer. So I think that's the best way to reach a solution that's going to be lower risk. I think it is brave to particularly to invite somebody in from outside and to invest in that.

(36:12) That's why I'm trying to make it ethical and affordable. Um I want to do good work in the world. That's my kind of value base. Um I'm not out to become a millionaire on the back of it. I think it's still a brave commitment. But look, if you've tried everything else and you're still not getting the result you need or want, it's time to do something different.

(36:30) And again, design will give you something different. >> And the other question I have for you, what makes somebody a good commissioner of your work? Who are the clients or the commission you go, "Yes, they they've got it. This is the sort of person I really I can really do good work here." >> Yeah.

(36:45) So I'm working with an organization at the moment and and the person that's brought me in is quite entrepreneurial by mindset is willing to think differently gets energized by being agile which I think a lot of nonprofit leaders actually are because they have to be and that excites them bit of survival instinct and mentality I think but fundamentally they're open they're open to sharing they're curious they're wanting to listen they're wanting to work with.

(37:15) So, it's not kind of a brief lobbed at me and then see you in six weeks time. It's kind of here's here's what I think we've we're wrestling with. Can we kick it around together? Can we work it through together? And by the way, here's my team. Work with them. Do what what's helpful. Um, so the real partnership actually.

(37:30) I mean, that sounds probably a bit of a cliche, but but I think it's true. Um, a designer shouldn't be a single practitioner. They shouldn't be a lone island. That's that's not how it works. I think a good commissioner also should keep you on track. Uh I mean designers could not that I would but we could get lost in our own ideation for weeks on end because we love it and it's energized but we have to stay grounded.

(37:54) An organization needs to get to the solution and it needs to get to an outcome. So I think a good commissioner does that balance check and balance as well. Um equally a good consultant should keep one eye on time as well. >> You've turned you mentioned it a few times. like test, experiment, all those kind of things.

(38:12) It's a word we we we often hear sort of chiefs, we want you to go out, we want you to experiment, but that's easier than done. Often there's a little bit of fear attached. How can you create the conditions where testing can happen? And and what kind of test can you do? What what's safe to try or safe enough? >> Yeah.

(38:29) Yeah. Um, and I think to be fair also leaders hear test and think expense or they hear creativity and think time or they hear prototyping and think, "Oh, it's not going to be good enough. We shouldn't put it out there." Um, a good example of a prototype, right, could be um I'm a designer, so I've always got a marker pen nearby.

(38:51) Uh, a prototype could be we're going to this is a bit maf and and it's a bit kind of obvious, but an app, right? So, we think that the answer to um anxiety, human emotions, anxiety in um in waiting for a clinic appointment um is because people don't know where they are in the process, uh who they're going to see next. We're going to create an app which people can then kind of see in real time, tells them where they are in in the process, what they're waiting for next, and who they're going to see.

(39:19) Right? Here's a prototype. Okay? So, you draw, here's your smartphone, here's your screen. This is the thing here. This is the thing here. This is the thing here. That took me what, 10 seconds. You take that out into a clinic and you sit with somebody and you say, "Are we thinking along the right lines? Would that be helpful or not?" They kind of go, "That's great, but I don't have a smartphone." Okay, right.

(39:40) We've prototyped that out the window. >> Yeah, it's others would develop the entire thing and then when they launched it, they would find out, wouldn't they? >> So, how much did that cost? One Post-it note and about 3 minutes. That's prototyping. Now, it can also be, you know, the other extreme, I was being slightly kind of provocative, but the other extreme of that is you could design kind of a whole pathway and a booking system and stuff and get it to the the bare bones to try, but you've still invested time and energy and

(40:11) probably some expense and then you put it out there and that's okay, too. But it's kind of what's the right level of prototyping for the the thing we need to learn from and try out. That's the rule really. So you're always looking to do it as quick and cheaply as possible as early as you can because again that will send you down the right road not down the wrong road to to what you were just saying.

(40:34) Um Gary I had somebody last week said um we were doing some design thinking session and they their kind of thing was um how can we uh get the voices of patients more readily into our work and inform our work. And somebody said well you can't. And one answer was well kind of well we could phone them up and just kind of talk to them and listen and then seek permission.

(40:53) People say well you can't you can't prototype that. It's kind like well you could you could get permission from some people and then you can make 10 phone calls and see what you learn from it. That's prototyping. It would take you half an hour quick early as possible make some decisions and then you can get more sophisticated with it as you have confidence build.

(41:10) Um, if you're watching this and you want to rewind that bit, this will save your company hundreds of thousands of dollars. We know this, don't we? >> We We do. We do. >> Fabulous. Um, one question for you. What do you enjoy most about the work you do? >> Um, problem solving. So, as my wife will um will testify, I absolutely hate jigsaw puzzles with a passion and she quite likes them.

(41:36) And I don't really like board games. But for some reason, organization problems and design problems are like, you know, a bit of a bit of a thing for me. Uh, a bit Sherlock Holmesy. I think kind of not having an obvious answer to a complex problem is is gold. I love it. And getting immersed in it. Um, I also really love mapping stuff.

(41:57) As you probably saw, I love scribbling and sketching and sticking stuff on a wall and working out what the patterns are and all that stuff. So, exploration really, but ultimately it's kind of give me a really nutty, tricky, stuck problem and I'll get completely immersed in it. >> People love a tool or a technique.

(42:14) Are there any particular tools or techniques that you you you find yourself going back to that you'd recommend others kind of investigate? >> Yeah. So, so I said one one of the most powerful is the five W's. And why is it so powerful? Because it's so easy and and anyone can do it literally. and you can't predict where you're going to get to with it, but you can do it fairly safely actually and and it gets you some interesting insights.

(42:37) So, I use that a lot. I I I like analogous thinking. So, what other systems, organizations, setups can you nick ideas from and and test them and learn from? Um, I use that quite a lot. Retroactive, a retroactive exercise. Again, I didn't come up with this, but it's super helpful. So basically, you you take the thing that you're about to try or do.

(43:02) You imagine that you're the other side of doing it in the future and you think about the likely things that could have gone wrong with it or why it might not have worked and you just postit note, brainstorm it or mirror board map it, whatever. And you do it with a group and then you kind of go, "All right, so how do we stop those things happening?" So you do a reverse problem solve and we've done that.

(43:28) We did that with um with a staff survey. We said right we we need to increase engagement. To do that we need to get more voices of staff on a really large workforce. We're going to put a survey out. What might stop people completing it? What's what's going to turn people off? And you get a list of practical stuff and you get a list of behavioral stuff and you get a list of, you know, logistic stuff, whatever.

(43:49) And then you go, okay, what are the most likely? and then how are we going to sort those out and then you guess what you put those things into action at the beginning. Um and it works. It really does work and it's again it's like another hour two hours piece of workshop. Um it's not it's not crazy hard but it's it's like everything.

(44:06) It's a tool to be done well with some skill and then you get good result. >> And then we we asked you what you love most. What do you find most challenging about the work that you do? It it doesn't happen very often because generally when people ask you to help, it's because they want the help. But every now and then you'll take people on a process, you'll get through to some really exciting ideas, really encouraging, fired up, and then people for whatever reason will panic and not do them or think of a reason why it's

(44:36) not now, it's not the right time or whatever. As and as a problem solver, you want the problem to be solved. And as a designer, you want to see stuff created. Um, so that can be quite frustrating. Um, but again, use of self self as instrument, you kind of have to think, well, what's going on in the system that that's the reason and and it's valid.

(44:58) It's it's totally valid and it's real and maybe you know what, maybe the problem at that point is how do we solve that >> to enable the things. So I've kind of matured in life. I've stopped being sort of slightly upset and disappointed practitioner going through to the kind of that intersection with OD again. Okay, let's switch this to being a behavioral problem then um and work with people where they're at to do that bit.

(45:18) >> Uh so J, what's particularly interesting you in the field at the moment? Is there anything that's emerging or new ways of working that you think yeah, do you know that's really worth exploring or or something you're just starting to use yourself? >> Yeah. Um, so, so I think what's interesting is some patterns I'm noticing and I've been testing out with some other colleagues both in design but also in in sort of wider OD.

(45:39) So I think what I'm noticing is there's a real hunger for complexity to simplicity um, in organizations. They realize they're in a complex world, complex systems, complex dynamics and are absolutely craving simplicity. And to shift from one to the other possibly isn't doable. but there is a way to structure what they're working with and help them make steps.

(46:03) So, I think that's a really interesting um thing to to kind of explore a bit more. The other thing that I've noticed showing up quite a bit is I think particularly in nonprofits actually, particularly in charities, getting really good at insights and understanding why um why they're doing what they're doing, why there's a need, why X leads to Y, and all that.

(46:28) and they kind of have some instincts of what value they could offer to a particular group of beneficiaries, but really stuck on the how. Really stuck on the how. Um because what they've done before doesn't now work for the new world. So again, I'm I'm curious and and I'm passionate about design leaning into the how.

(46:49) Um I think AI inevitably technology um really interesting. Do I think AI is going to solve all of the problems, automate everyone's roles, do away with design thinking? No, I don't. Why do I think that? Because AI is based on existing knowledge. Design thinking feeds on new knowledge not yet understood and I don't think AI can do that yet and whether it will be able to at all.

(47:15) Where I think it is quite exciting in in the field of design and design thinking though is that it can rapidly create prototypes. So, you know, back to the example earlier, we were saying if you want to mock up a thing to go and have a conversation, see if it lands well, AI could do that in 30 seconds or a minute. Um, so even if you don't have the skills yourself to produce a thing, it can.

(47:37) If you need to sift a ton of knowledge to help you define and do that convergence piece, AI will do it super quickly. Um, so I'm I'm curious and I'm sort of open-minded to it. I think it's going to be another tool. I don't think it's going to be the solution on its own. One question we like when you look back at your career so far, what are some of the biggest lessons you've learned along the way that you you carry forward with you into your work? Now, >> biggest the biggest one I think I've learned is I don't have all the answers

(48:03) and that's not my job. My and that might sound really odd compared to what I've been saying, but I think when you enter the workplace and you're an employee, you kind of feel like you have to have answers. That's what you're getting paid for. So, so staying true to what the practice is, which is having all the good questions is what I've always known but haven't always practiced and and I've learned that that is where I need to stay true to myself and and true to the practice.

(48:32) >> And then refining that skill um asking the questions that might seem so obvious and and naive, but they're often the ones that no one else has asked, and they're exactly the right ones. Um, now what I found joyful about working with groups in different sectors and different professions is that I don't know what they do and I'm not paid to know what they do.

(48:55) I'm paid to ask them questions about what they do and then that unlocks the answers that they didn't have before and gives them enough of an idea of what to do with whatever it is they're wrestling. So that's that's what I've learned really. I think questions and and skill in asking questions and observing. We've talked about observing, but you know, it's not just what you know, it's what you see.

(49:12) It's it I've got a pretty photographic memory. I'm constantly scanning the world and thinking, "Oh, that's interesting." And oh, I'll bank that for later, and I'm curious about why they do that, then use it and apply it, dig it out later. >> And I think that kind of mindset of not having to know everything is quite liberating, isn't it? Because it kind of it releases the pressure quite a lot and therefore allows you to focus on your task and where you can add value.

(49:37) Yeah, I think that's true. And and again, kind of as you go through your career, I think different points that imposter syndrome thing bubbles up. And I know people talk about that quite a lot. And and it's it's kind of okay to talk about that. It's become okay and acceptable to talk, but it is true. You kind of particularly when you're doing something and becoming expert in it, it's so natural and kind of second nature that you think, well, surely everybody knows this and like I feel a bit fraudulent.

(50:05) this is so obvious and simple and straightforward and and then just kind of checking yourself and going, "No, that's why you do it because it is natural to you and you've learned it, but the world doesn't actually know this design thinking thing or have these tools. Um, if they did, you wouldn't need to do it." So, yeah, it's okay.

(50:23) >> I I think I've throughout this entire episode, I thought I want to spend a day in Charles's brain. >> I think it'd be amazing. Anyway, how >> in the mind attic, as Sherlock calls it. >> So, how do you invest in your own learning and development? >> So, um you possibly can't quite see it. It's off camera, but I've got a whole kind of bookshelf, bookshelves plural.

(50:46) He says slightly nervously because every week there's a package coming from World of Books or Amazon or other retailers are available. And my wife kind of goes, "Now what? Now what you're reading?" And on my bedside table there's a stack of books, invariably Design or OD or something similar.

(51:01) Um, I'm I've always been slightly obsessive with non-fiction reading and and that kind of stuff. That's always floating my back. So, I read a lot. Um, I'm I'm trying to read around the subject more actually. Um, which I think is is a good thing. Um, but there's so much out there and it again it's sort of slightly addictive I think for me. Um, so I do that.

(51:23) I really value relationship and community and as a consultant there are just lovely people out there that are also doing consultancy work and are just happy to have a coffee and a chat and share and there slightly more structured forum. I love that stuff and I love talking to people that do slightly different practice and slightly different sectors and things and again just sharing the kind of um synergies and and transferables and and thoughts just kicking around stuff and kind of going I've noticed this. What do you think?

(51:51) and going, "Oh, yeah, I've noticed that, too. What do we make of that?" Um, that's all quite quite exciting. And it's development and and have a coffee and a chat seems slightly fraudulent to call it learning and development, but it is. And that's that's true. So, let's do it. >> I'm also a book lover.

(52:07) I I love a book and my reading pile is always huge. So, are there any particular books that you'd recommend that stick out for you that you you recommend others read? >> Yeah. So I think um so so there's loads around design thinking and and human center design and and organization design. Um so we can put a book list together quite happily and share that.

(52:27) I think if you're going to read just one and it's quite a straightforward read and it's really practical. I'd recommend Tim Brown from IDO uh X IDO and his book called Change by Design. Um, again, it's it's probably more towards sort of profit sector, but actually the the models, I use them all the time because they're really straightforward, very practical, steeped in decades of doing it and seeing it work.

(52:56) Um, and if it works for massive global companies that IDA work with, it's probably transferable to smaller niche organizations in different sectors. So, change by design by Tim Brown, bit of a bit of an icon. And the question we always like to end every episode with is what advice would you give to someone who's just starting out in design thinking or is frustrated besides obviously calling you which we'd really encourage you to do and your details will be in the show notes but how might they think about entering the field or

(53:22) learning more? >> So entering the field um there's there's a number of routes. So you come up through traditional design and we haven't got time in this podcast to get on my soap box and talk about design education but that's a real bug bear of mine. I think we've taken creative learning out of the curriculum too much and and it's a shame because I think people need that abductive thinking, that divergence of thinking in the workplace now more than ever.

(53:47) I would say get hold of a book, learn the basics and just go and try it in your context and see what you get because it is a practice. It's just going and having a go and then seeing and then building on it and just keep going. Trust it. Trust the process. um very good friend and colleague of mine Toby who you had on Toby Lindsay who you've had on the show before >> he he said to me a long time ago trust the process and it's so true so just go and have a go and get on with it and if you want to then wrap some formal

(54:18) qualification and stuff around it there's plenty of ways to do that out there and I'm really happy to talk to people about that but doing it is the learning >> um some of the advice that comes out because I organization development as a field is like look around your organization there's always things that can be improved aren't though.

(54:34) Is that is that a tip for somebody who maybe feels trapped in their own role and thinking, "How do I get out there? How do I get some runs on the board?" >> Yeah, I think so. Be a bit under the radar. If if you're a bit nervous or a bit new to it or not quite sure, pick something that people aren't kind of all staring at and scratching their heads over, pick something that somebody hasn't noticed that you think you've got a pretty good chance of doing something good with or or sorting out.

(54:57) It might be a little process that is entirely yours or it might be a a way you work with somebody else. Just kind of pull them together. Get get a thought going. Um test it out. See what happens and then if that works, try something a bit bigger and then build your confidence. Um there's plenty of stuff that needs to be better and there's plenty of stuff that can be designed.

(55:17) >> Those are wise words to leave us with. Well, I want to say a huge thank you J. It's been a really really lovely conversation. this is, you know, we really wanted to bring in people that can expand people's thinking and help them think about things way and you've got ticks all the way down on this. So, we've really enjoyed this.

(55:33) So, thank you, Danny. Danny, what are you taking away from the conversation? >> Yeah, it's been a lovely conversation. I've really enjoyed it. So, I think you've done a lovely job of bringing design thinking to life and really making it tangible and practical for people to see what it looks like in practice.

(55:46) I love what you said about kind of the importance of defining the problem. Um, and I, you know, the five W's is a brilliant tool. So really encourage people to go and start using that and what you said about prototyping making it quick, cheap and do it as easy as possible and just prototype something get going. Yeah. And learn from it.

(56:01) >> Yeah. And I think I think absolutely did so for me again going back to the power of observation the fact that it's an overlook thing and doing a focus group is quite an artificial thing to do like see things out in in the wild doing what it does and also yeah that choosing the right level of ro prototyping according to what it needs.

(56:18) It doesn't need to be some huge expensive experiment. it sort of starting me as well and I love the tools that you shared as well, the retroactive and different things as well. Charles, I know that people have enjoyed this. Um, you've launched from here fairly recently, haven't you? Um, if people are interested in your work, if they'd like to have a discussion with you, do you know what? I've got this problem and I want to look at it from a different angle.

(56:39) How can people follow your work or reach out to you? >> Yeah, thank you. Um, so I'm on LinkedIn. Uh, go and go and see what I'm thinking about on LinkedIn. Um, but probably the best best place to go is my website. So, www.frohere.design and then my contacts are on there as well. So, um, yeah, bob me a line and really happy to have a chat.

(57:00) >> Brilliant. Well, Charles, thank you so much for joining us. Again, what we always say is if you're watching this and you think someone needs to be introduced to the world of design thinking, if you think they're stuck with a problem, then please do share this podcast with them. Uh, we get so many brilliant stats every single week of how many this is shared.

(57:17) Um this week we've hit 100 countries um which is a a fabulous achievement. So wherever in the world you're watching this, we just love the fact that we've got people joining us from across the globe. Um and that's been such a brilliant thing and the community is growing as well. So if you've enjoyed it, hit the like button.

(57:32) Please share it. Uh but most importantly, we want to say a huge thank you to you Charles. You've been really generous with your time, your expertise, and your insights. Um it's been a fabulous episode and and we've really enjoyed it. So thank you for coming with us today. >> Thanks very much. It's it's been delightful and I'm really grateful.

(57:46) Thank you. Fabulous.