Why Transformation Fails - And What Works with Dr Gwen Stirling Wilkie - OrgDev Episode 85

Why Do Transformations and Change Fail - And What Can Leaders Do About It? 
Where do leaders go when the map runs out – when the terrain ahead is shifting faster than they can chart it? Today on the OrgDev Podcast, we’re stepping into the space where the known meets the unknown, and where transformation takes root. In this episode. we’ll hear how Gwen blends rigour and relationality, why she believes leadership must be both human-centred and AI-enabled, and what seeds she’s planting for the future of Organisation Development.

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We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

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Transcript

(00:00) Hi and welcome to the org dev podcast. So where do leaders go when the map runs out? When the terrain ahead is shifting faster than they can chart it. Today on the org dev podcast, we're stepping into the space where the known meets the unknown and where transformation takes place. Our brilliant guest today is Dr.

(00:19) Gwen Sterling Wilkkey who calls herself an edge walker, someone who moves between worlds, bridging established practice and emerging possibility. In this episode, we'll hear how Gwen blends rigor and relationality, why she believes leadership must be both human- centered and AI enabled, and what seed she's planting for the future of organization development.

(00:39) Gwen has recently been awarded her doctorate in April 2025 for her thesis, responsiveness in the evolving landscape of work, where she blended rigorous academic research with over 25 years of live practice. Gwen by date is the founder of seeds of transformation established 2016. The consultancy supports executives and senior leaders in navigating complexity, uncovering stuck patterns, and enabling meaningful change.

(01:05) Gwen has had a fascinating career. She's held senior roles in major retail businesses during periods of rapid growth, most notably at Body Shop, led live the renowned leader Anita Rodic. And if you don't know her, look her up because she's absolutely brilliant. She's also served as executive director in consulting. And this gives her firsthand insight into the pressures of top level leadership.

(01:24) Now Gwen holds a people- centered philosophy. She believes people are more talented than they realize. Teams are more collectively brilliant than they give themselves credit for and organizations are richer in wisdom than they tap into. Now naturally on top of the doctorate, Gwen is highly qualified and holds two M's degrees, an MBA and an MSE in consultancy and change from Ashbridgeidge Business School.

(01:45) She's also an NTL OD practitioner, an NLP master practitioner. She's trained in advanced systemic constellations and accredited in multiple psychometrics. And also Gwa is a two times published author. She's author of omniworking a practical guide to designing high performance flexible work. Um and from physical place to virtual space how to design and host transformative spaces which is a great book and Danny and I have both read in detail haven't we? >> We have. Absolutely.

(02:12) They're on my Kindle cuz so I can't show you the highlights. We were like, "Show the book on the Kindle." But they are really, really good and worth reading. Really practical and really tactical and and all evidence-based as well. So, Greg, thank you so much for joining us today. It's an absolute delight to have you with us.

(02:34) >> Oh, we're we're really excited to have you with us, Gwen. We could, you know, we were trying to narrow down what we wanted to talk to you about, and it was a it was a long list of things we could talk about. So just to kick us off, so you've obviously done your your PhD very recently.

(02:47) So just tell us a bit more about the work you've been doing there and and what that's been about. >> It's been a interesting kind of two and a half three years because I think there's one thing as you move through your career and I consider myself in the later stages of of my, you know, OD professional practice and career. There's something about wanting to honor um the breadth and the depth of the work that I've done and also be able to think about what is the the legacy that I want to share with other practitioners who may be in an earlier stage of their OD

(03:25) journey. Um and also more broadly for for leaders and leadership at the moment in organizational life because you know everything is changing. so fast. How do how do we as leaders individually and collectively make decisions around, you know, the strategic intent of our organization and and how do we bring that to life with the people around us? And so there was it was those two things combined that I thought you know now is the time for me to um do some serious relearning.

(04:01) You know, I think after after the masters in consulting and change, I vowed I was done. I wasn't going to do anything else. And then there's that I don't know, there's that sort of intellectual academic kind of itch that starts to scratch. And it's like, oh, maybe it's time to go back into this into this world again as a very much as a as a what they call a pademic, an academic practitioner.

(04:25) Because for me, one of the things that's really important is that whatever I study or write about is it's grounded in real life. So it becomes as useful as possible for um for either OD practitioners or for leaders in organizations. >> Fabulous. And a doctorate is no small undertaking, is it? So >> no, it's not. >> How did you Yeah.

(04:48) How did you approach it then? How did you decide what you were going to focus on? Um, I knew it was going to be something to do with the what I call the evolving landscape of work because both of my books have been centered very much on, you know, something's really changed in how we work. Um, part of which of that conversation is where we work.

(05:09) And so I knew it was going to be centered around that. And one of the hardest choices was narrowing it down because there's so much in there >> that it could have been about everything. And I think initially I kind of overwhelmed myself with all of the possibilities of what could I study and what could I focus once I'd made the choice to focus on this this phrase responsiveness that for me unlocked you know what came next and so I was thinking about how did I respond personally because the the span of my doctorate covers precoid so

(05:48) what happened before 2020 20 during COVID and postcoid. So, it was really centered around the pandemic. And and when I first started to look, I thought, well, what is it? What did I learn about my own responsiveness and how I adjusted my practice and what that felt like and what I needed to become better at and what did I need to forget and leave behind.

(06:13) And so that center on responsiveness then sort of unlocked everything else around around the topic and it became a a completely fascinating topic to research and and to write about. >> So one of the terms you use is you describe yourself as an edgewalker. Did that emerge as part of your doctorate research? >> It did.

(06:35) It did. And it was a phrase that when I was looking back through I keep a pile of of scrap paper which has been used on one side for printing things and I happened to turn a piece of paper over and it was an image of the front page of my omniwork book and this word edge walker was written on it and I thought that's really interesting.

(06:54) What one? Why did I write that word down? Where'd it come from? And I thought that really resonates somewhere. And it didn't appear anywhere in the Omniworking book. And when I started to look at it, it was like, oh my god, this is exactly how I view my practice >> and how I then subsequently viewed actually this role that leaders have of one foot being in the here and now and what exists and the history of where we've got to and how we've got to it.

(07:23) And then this other notion of I've also got to be on the edge of the future. On the edge of can I predict? Can I have foresight on what is emerging both contextually for my organization but in the potential decisions and piloting and experimenting that we do to find the way forward. So this whole notion of edgewalking I think it captured my imagination but it also for me really summarized this this nature of OD practitioners when we are on the edge one we're on if we're external we're on the edge of the organization we're kind

(08:02) of in the organization and we're slightly outside the organization and and how do we manage that boundary ourselves but then when we are doing our strategy work and our transformation work, then we need to to be open to what we don't know about yet, what is still yet to emerge, what is still yet to become. >> So this notion, this this concept and this metaphor of edgewalking then became really really central to to my writing and it became a theme.

(08:37) It was almost like this narrative metaphor that wo its way through every single chapter of my thesis from the first opening position right the way through each chapter and right to the end. and it's kind of carried itself forward as a metaphor of of me personally being an edge walker and how do I help other OD practitioners walk this edge and leaders in organizations collectively walk this edge of what is known and what is unknown >> and I know you shared you shared various things for us to read before we did this which were really really interesting and

(09:13) you talked about there kind of that balance between known and unknown and kind of established practice and emerging possibility and the as a tension that we need to hold as as practitioners, do you find yourself naturally leaning to towards one or the other of those kind of known and unknown in your practice? >> I think by nature I'm very curious.

(09:33) >> I think by nature I'm always kind of wondering oh what if and you know what exists that isn't visible to us yet. So I think it's partly a natural trait innately that I have as a as a as a human being existing in the world and also I think through the experience that I've had in the different sectors and different organizations I've worked with, it's also a known experience base that says although I think something's going to be like this, there are always things that unfold that surprise me.

(10:06) So it feels a very kind of natural a natural way of being for me. And for the leaders that kind of we're working with who you know might either themselves be kind of leaning wanting that kind of certainty or you know be more comfortable in that space or be working with their own teams who might want that certainty.

(10:24) What advice have you got for them? You know what what has your doctorate told you about how they how you can support them to kind of embrace the the unknown? Yeah, I think it's a real challenging position for leaders because there is something and it's starting to shift more more and more now. But I think there's something historical about the paradigm, the traditional paradigm of leadership and the more senior you are, the more you're meant to know what the right answers are.

(10:52) >> Yeah. >> And and of course we the world is too complex now. There's so much happening. Not only the pace of change is faster but the scale of change is much much broader and wider. So how can one person no matter how senior they are have all of the answers but I think there is still a it's almost like a bit of a bit of a leadership paradox >> that I think some leaders are becoming more comfortable with it about this notion of it isn't my job to have the right answers.

(11:24) It's actually my job to surround myself with a group of people and ask them better questions because the answers will be there, but I don't feel the sense of my responsibility to have the answers. Collectively, we need to find a way forward. So I think I'm starting to notice that and I'm noticing a difference between a range of leaders who are very comfortable and confident as senior leaders in their function but they are less confident as enterprisewide leaders.

(11:57) So when they need to shift from okay in my finance or in my marketing or in my supply chain, you know, I have a lot of the right answers because that's the the fields that I've grown up through and actually then when I'm faced with enterprisewide challenges then I I kind of feel a little bit uncomfortable.

(12:17) Um and so for some of them they kind of quite naturally go into okay well there's a there's almost a little bit of a relief that I don't need to find the answer but others of them they get really anxious about not knowing the answer. So helping them understand that notion of that it's it's perfectly okay to to to feel like you want to be more in the known space >> rather than the unknown.

(12:42) And so how part of the role that I do when I'm working with these senior teams is to help them feel more comfortable with um the unknown and how can we find out who are the people we need to bring into our conversation who might have knowledge from the edge or beyond the edge. Yeah. either within our organization or actually some thinking from outside the organization which may be from an adjacent sector which actually can really unlock some potential future value in our organization that doesn't exist at the moment.

(13:13) >> So I think it's interesting isn't it because it's a mindset shift for the leaders kind of being comfortable in that that unknown space but also for their teams as well because a lot of you know the teams look to the leaders to be the people who who've got the answers and have the certainty.

(13:26) So, it's a shift for them as well, isn't it? In their their perspective on what what a lead what it means to be a leader and what they should expect from their their leaders. >> And yet, you've also then got so so um two of my current clients at the moment are both I should coincidentally, but actually probably not because it's the kind of work that I'm attracted to at the moment are really looking at one, how do we how do we clarify our current strategic intent? Secondly, what do us as a senior leadership team, what are we here to do? what's our role

(13:55) >> as as as this unique most senior team in the organization. And so then we start to have the conversations about what is the role of senior leadership in a modern or contemporary organization about how many answers do we need to have and actually how much do we do we set a clear intent and then how much do we then start to involve through participation through co-creation through dialogue all of the great stuff that that we all love as OD practitioners how do we start to actually practically do that in our

(14:28) organiz organization. So then future leaders and it might be the next level down or it might be pockets of high potential leaders or people who are just really passionate and want to get involved have an opportunity to step into the space to then continue to work and cocreate that next level of strategic intent to strategic imperatives and priorities and how are those actually going to come to life.

(14:57) So that for me is a really lovely very practical shift and often it's it's helping the most senior leadership team feel less anxious about letting go and to view it much more about you know you've got an opportunity here to develop and to test out some of the people who you rate you know when we have these rating conversations about talent and talent progression and talent pipeline.

(15:23) Here's an opportunity for them to really think about what are the changes that need to be made in how we go about delivering our strategic priorities which enable us to remain competitive in in in a changing marketplace. >> And is that where the kind of idea of seeds that answers comes in that it's not about just leaving people to create not a blank completely blank landscape.

(15:42) It's about the seeds of of where we might be heading. >> Yes. Yes. And you know that's one of the reasons why my business is called seeds of transformation because one of the things that I discovered much much earlier in my career is that you know we all have these seeds of potential within us and you know those leaders you've worked for who were really good at spotting potential in in you or in other people and just giving you an opportunity to to actually let that potential grow and shine through.

(16:14) And I've experienced that twice in my career. And it's both terrifying and hugely rewarding. You know, it's that sort of like real mixture of, oh my god, somebody's giving me this wonderful opportunity and actually having the courage and the confidence and the support network around you to step into it and to really create something for you and for the organization.

(16:36) I was going to say another example that edge walking kind of you know in that scenario you're kind of on the edge aren't you of do I stay where where I know or where I'm comfortable or do I >> and so that's when the whole thing of seeds comes from is you know some people's seeds are absolutely ready to kind of blossom and others still need a very supportive culture and climate.

(16:58) So, so the soil that they are in, if we're going to continue this metaphor, the soil that they are in provides the right conditions for them to flourish. And we're kind of moving into organizational culture now that, you know, how do we create those conditions for for our people to to bring the best for themselves? >> I guess one of the things you sort of see in organizations is you have to be quite intentional all this, don't you? Because there's biases at play.

(17:22) So often the senior team will have their particular favorites. They love to give these stretch assignments because they know they're a safe pair of hands. They're always going to deliver. Yet, we have to sort of give more equality of opport opportunity, don't we? >> Yes. And I and I encourage and I'm we're just about to move into this phase in a in a particular um piece of work that I'm involved with.

(17:42) And I really encourage the senior leadership team to go, yeah, okay, identify those people who you normally go to. Now, identify the ones who you would avoid and let's invite them. And then let's open the opportunity up for anybody else who cares enough about this topic to want to step in.

(18:02) Because then what you're doing is actually you're doing the piece that is often left until implementation to kind of look at those who might be a bit more resistant. Look at those who might be involve them right at the beginning because through that process they'll have an opportunity to share their concerns and their fears and their experiences previously either in that organization or in other organizations.

(18:25) And when they're involved in that co-creation process then about something that's going to affect them then they're their commitment is huge. and the pace with which what we would normally call implementation goes, it all just takes off. >> Yeah. That investment in the front end pays off on the back end of the project, doesn't it? >> Yes.

(18:48) Yes. Go slow to go fast is is another phrase that uh that I use in those situations. >> Hi, we're just pausing this interview for a moment. Have you ever finished an episode of the ordev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points? Us too, so we made one. It's called From Pod to Practice, and each week in our newsletter, we'll share a two-page summary of the latest org dev episode.

(19:11) And it includes key takeaways, a reflection prompt, and one small action you can try. >> And it's all in a digital format with space at the end to add your own notes and reflections. And it's designed to help you take the learning from the podcast into your day-to-day work. So, to get your copy, just sign up to our next step to better newsletter.

(19:27) The links in the show notes, or you can visit our website at www.distinction.live live to get the latest from pod to practice in your inbox and let us know what you think. We'd love to get your feedback. >> So, one of the things you say is you can't force transformation. You have to invite it.

(19:42) And that's that's again that's another big shift for organizations because transformations are one of those things that are thrust upon organizations and thrust upon employees as well. So, what did you mean when you actually wrote that? I think the invitation is for people to come into the space to consider what it might mean for them and for their part of the organization.

(20:05) So you you know I know from all of my research that I've done and and in my doctorate and and pre-doerate you know some of the principles that underpin dialogic OD are co co-creation and con social construction and so we need to have time to do our sense making and our meaning making and we need to do that individually and then we need to do that collectively and often we forget about both of those consciously both of those phases of work.

(20:37) And if they're skipped over and ignored, then I've only got my perspective on what I see and what I've experienced and what I anticipate, whether that's fearful anticipation or or excited anticipation about what may lie ahead. When I've had an opportunity to do that sense making and meaning making with another group of people, that gives me different data and it gives me a much more shared experience and a much more shared platform for us to move forward from.

(21:11) And so that's so so for me there's a conscious process invitational process of when's when is the next invitational stage to open up this conversation either more broadly within a department or a function or more crossf functionally across an organization or across multiple organizations. if it's if it's across um you know multiple partners in in social health and social care you've got multiple cross organizations coming together so there are some really clear and important choice points about when when and how the invitation gets

(21:48) extended >> yeah I love what you're saying there in terms of the space for individual sense making and then collective sense making as well and again not so many organizations do that how do you go about introducing that into organizations because it is a different way you A lot of effort. We've seen a lot of effort go into town hall meetings which is like we announced the transformation.

(22:08) This is what it's going to be. It's beautifully produced. The CEO knows their lines. They've been coached to say what they should say and they shouldn't say. Yet it often is a it's it's a lost opportunity, isn't it? >> Yeah, it can be. It can be. And I think sometimes one of the hardest things is to particularly at a senior level with the pace that people are used to working at and the drive to get things sorted and started as quickly as possible.

(22:39) I think one of the hardest things is to slow that pace down >> and to interrupt the rhythms. So, so there is a there is a sort of a natural cadence and rhythm around organizations and it's it's often a different rhythm and cadence at different hierarchical levels and different responsibility levels.

(23:01) So, one of the first things I would often do is to is to is to with a senior team is to create an environment which interrupts that rhythm. So encourages them to slow their pace down to slow and to do more individual sense making and more shared sense making. So you know what is it that's going on out there at the moment that is affecting us in here and what might that impact be because those kind of sense making questions you can't rush through.

(23:32) So yes, you've picked up on a wonderful thing there which is about the rhythm of organizations because there is a kind of a drum beat within organizations isn't there and you know if you think about the speed of an operational cycle is much faster than a a strategic cycle. How do you pick up on the rhythms at the different levels in an organization? Do >> you know it starts kind of almost straight away.

(23:56) It starts from even things as simple as as response rates to emails. things like how are how is the agenda being formed and by whom for our first meeting you know if I'm if I'm there to support a strategic offsite for two or three days how does the agenda come together who influences that how close to the last minute are things being changed and so these give you clues about how much are they ideally wanting to pack into this time together.

(24:32) So those things immediately signal to me about how what the pace and rhythm of of that organization is. And then once I start to then explore a little bit more about the the regular meeting cadences. So what's the formal meeting cadence of the most senior team and what is the purpose of each of the times they come together you know and where does performance get re get reviewed and how frequently does organizational performance get reviewed which of course will depend on the context of the organization and and and the kind of the

(25:09) metrics that they are they are measured by but that difference between the most senior level and the next level down again will give me signals about about where energy and pace exists. >> No, I was I think there was a really important point there that that kind of that is all really important data for us as OD practitioners about how we enter into the organization, >> what we experience in terms of how things are communicated and how things pan out and work their way through is really really important data that we

(25:39) shouldn't overlook. Yeah, I almost put on a cultural anthropology hat. Um, and that's something that I picked up from my doctorate. You know, I really I slow myself down because I notice that how easy it is to match and to be drawn alongside an organizational's pace and momentum. And there sometimes I'm wanting to match it and sometimes I'm intentionally wanting to hold myself away from it and to disrupt to encourage the slowing down even the pace of a of a call or a conversation.

(26:18) How fast do people speak? Do they feel like they have to get everything out really really quickly right at the very very start because they're never going to be able to get a chance to talk again unless somebody else stops? And it's it's things like how how often the meeting your your call with somebody gets moved and bumped and you know is it last minute and that that's not just a you know you as a practitioner it's probably kind of a reflection of >> kind of the patterns that play in the organization.

(26:39) >> Yes. Because every interaction that we have with an with a client system is a microcosm of what goes on in that system. >> Yeah. >> You know we know that from from you know systemic approaches and from systems theory. you know, we're working with these fractalss and microcosms which which again is just it's data.

(26:59) It's all data. So, so adopting a cultural anthrop anthropology approach really helps you surface some of these things which which you know which you feel in your body. So I feel them in my body and and the sensation may turn into a into a feeling of frustration or the sensation may turn into god they're taking ages to come back or my god they're back straight away and and we're kind of in this really fast ping pong ping pong ping pong you know the data is there and it's taking that data seriously. Does that bring us quite

(27:34) nicely to one of the other themes in your kind of doctorate research around use of self and oh yes you've kind of yeah you you kind of reframe it as I think it's relational responsiveness in your is that right in the work that you've done. >> Yeah. So yeah just talk us through that. I think there's something fundamental about the nature of the importance of relationships and relational capital in not only in the work that we do as OD practitioners, whether we are internal OD practitioners or whether we come in

(28:03) from the outside and and join and come alongside a system for a particular piece of work or a particular piece of time. I think generally in organizational life the notion of of relationships and relationality is so so important and has been I personally think really under under valued >> in organizational life and so in OD we have this phrase use of self which you know is a very OD phrase about you know how we show up our presence whether we say something whether we don't say thing. How do we look at all of the

(28:41) data? How do we choose to play that back? What interventions are we going to make? Big interventions or small interventions? Um, what do we draw? What do we notice? What do we draw other people's attention to? All of this really, really great stuff. And when I was kind of testing out bits of my thesis with different business leaders, this whole use of self thing was just didn't resonate at all as a as a language, as a label.

(29:08) And then when I explored it a little bit more, I thought actually that skill set that we we call OD as a as a use of selfcluster is really is a really really valuable skill set for leaders to have because you know we we know that so much gets done through our relational capacity in organizations as leaders. So um so for me it's become the way of of talking about um relationships as really important strategic work.

(29:45) >> It's not soft skills actually. It's complex. >> The hardest stuff isn't it? Yeah. >> It's complex but it's hugely powerful. And you know when you are either being led by a leader who really understands the the relationships and the power dynamics that are going on and uses those positively in organizational life.

(30:09) You know, when you've been in the presence of a leader who really is able to listen incredibly well >> so that you feel like you are the only and most important person in the conversation who asks really insightful questions and takes seriously the answers that they hear. You know that's somebody who is using their relational intelligence which goes beyond um emotional intelligence.

(30:36) So how how do we help leaders start to build that where what are the the stepping stones? I think there is you know there's there's a there's a self-development element of it you know so so a lot of leaders have been through development programs which may raise their self-awareness um and help them understand the impact that they have on others but it's being for me the approach that I take is how can we how can I do that real time >> so if I'm working with a senior leadership team I may be I may have what I call task that I'm doing with them

(31:12) which might be about you know let us clarify our strategic intent let's look at our strategic priorities over the next two to three years and then let's work out how we can um bring the rest of the organization in to help us create the detail of that >> very high level at the same time and alongside I'm working on two parallel processes I'm working on the how that they go about doing their work so how well Do they um do they move along from debate, polite conversation into dialogue? So, how fluid are they along

(31:51) that continuum? How good are they at listening to each other? How good are they? What is their decision- making process? So, all of the the process related ways of working, paying attention to all of those. And I'm paying attention to the relational responsiveness elements about how they interact with each other.

(32:13) Whose voice carries most weight, who gets dismissed, >> who who who has to try and contribute three or four times before they're heard. And what happens with that contribution? Does it get completely ignored or does it get picked up by somebody? So doing that work live, I call it working live >> the same time as them doing the developmental work the same time as they're doing their really important business work is an accelerated way of doing some of the development that is required for relational responsiveness.

(32:49) >> Yeah. And there's a real skill as an OD practitioner, isn't there? In being able to to hold those those parallel things. >> Yes. Yes. Or you work with a or you work with a co-f facilitator, you know. I know you and you and Garren work together. >> Absolutely. Yeah, we work together. >> All of you can pay attention to the >> Absolutely.

(33:05) >> content task piece while the other one pays attention to the to the processes and and working relationships. Yeah. >> Yeah. Because there's a lot going on in a in a in a room at any one point, particularly when you work at a senior leadership level is, you know, there's a lot a lot happening. >> There is. There is.

(33:21) >> Yeah. It's really interesting. And then the other thing we often talk about is kind of the in the room kind of relationship stuff and then the relationships outside of the room. um between individuals and between the you know individuals and the the the maybe the the CEO or the senior leader. Do you work in that space as well? >> Yeah, I mean sometimes yes, sometimes no.

(33:45) Um but what I will often do is have some conversations, individual conversations with each of the the senior leaders that I'm going to be doing some work with. Um I I maybe not as formally as one-to-one coaching. Yeah. But there will certainly be some kind of debrief and and being aware of where is the power dynamic that exists. But I would try and make those observations visible to the whole team at time together because the way of working through it will be together because what I don't want to do is I don't want to amplify the kind of outside the room relationship when

(34:24) actually it's affecting the dynamic of the whole in the room >> and that can be a challenging space to be in a kind of you know raising awareness of those things. Um because there's something about contracting, there's something about boundaries, there's something about psychological safety.

(34:42) Um how safe does everybody feel here, >> you know? So it's not it's not something I go straight in with and go, "Right, wow, here we go." So there's something about you know creating the container which actually was one of the one of the um insights that came out of my doctorate research was about what are the conditions that need to be in place for a transformative space to exist.

(35:05) Yeah. You know and and defining it as transformative is going beyond. So something is created uniquely in this environment that required us to come together in a different way, have conversations in a different way maybe about different topics that opened up the potential for something really special and transformative to come out of that time together.

(35:31) >> So if you had to summarize kind of what the conditions were to make a space truly transformational, how would you how would you summarize those? >> Um the for me there's three things in there. one is is is the psychological safety. That's a hugely important element of it and taking the necessary steps if if needed to build that because it doesn't necessarily happen automatically.

(35:54) The other one is the uh the kind of the intent and the skills of the person who hosts that space whether that's a facilitator whether that's a coach whatever the language and the label might be about that that they are able to be themselves responsive to what is emerging >> because you know you know you might go into a three-day offsite and you might have a sense of this is the agenda that we've put together this is the pathway that we've put together.

(36:24) But as things emerge in the room, you know yourself, you'll be rejuggling and you'll be going, "Oh, actually, we need to spend more time on this and then we might need to reschedu this piece of it." And so the whole way through you'll be having conversations with each other and then maybe with whoever your client is or with the whole group to to rejig it based on what is emerging.

(36:47) And so having that confidence which moves from >> facilitating a group through a set agenda into actually working with what emerges in a very responsive way is is quite a big quite a range of skills >> that as an OD practitioner need need to be developed and a level of comfort needs to be generated with working in that way.

(37:13) You know, I often find that I may have a plan. I very rarely plan day three because I know that whatever I put down on that piece of paper, it's going to be something different. >> Yes. You know, my plan gets sort of looser and looser as I go as I go through. >> Yeah. And it's really important we're able to do that, that we don't stick rigidly to kind of a three-day Yes.

(37:32) structured plan that's, you know, things have emerged. You know, we need to be able to do what's ever going to add the most value and create the most impact for the group we're working with. and and also that they have an element of of say in it as well. You know, I was I was with a group um at the beginning of last month and I had got you know in my mind this is what might be happening at this particular afternoon session and you know they were having some really tough conversations about about strategic choices about what was going to be

(38:00) included in a in a piece of work they were doing around shifting the operating model. and my suggestion was just kind of like no that isn't what we need to do. So I said okay well what what is going to be the most helpful thing for you to do as a team right now and so they then redesign what they wanted to do with that afternoon.

(38:22) So having having encouraged them to step into that space, I then held them in that space. So for the rest of that day and for the following morning, they made the decisions about what was the right thing to do for them >> and I just enabled that. I just helped them have the conversations that they said were the most important conversations for them to have at that point.

(38:44) I mean the agenda was like I just not even bother getting it out of the bag. >> Yeah. And that can be quite challenging about a professional identity kind of perspective when we're in that kind of almost liinal space of kind of you know should we be dictating the direction or you know stepping back it's kind of for some people it will kind of really call into question their professional identity of I should know I should have the answers I should I should be directive.

(39:06) >> Yeah. But we're back to the conversation about leaders and their professional identity about as the most senior leader I should have the right answers. We're back to us as OD practitioners and we're in that space of you know is our role to have the right answer or is our role to enable this team in front of me to get to where they've said is really important for them to get to.

(39:32) So the other part of all of this is checking in against well what's the intent? Where do you want to get to? What would you like to have happen by the end of our time together? So the pre-work of the contracting and and the designing of that session needs to have a very clear direction, but how you get to those outputs may be completely different.

(39:54) And and I think you're right about the identity. Um because there's something about is it about me proving to you and showing you how skillful I am >> or actually is it about me getting out of your way and and doing the work that I need to do to enable you all to have the conversation that is important to you right now.

(40:17) >> Yeah. Perfect. And I think your phrase of in your doctor of responsive wayfairing kind of that kind of captures that really beautifully that kind of sense of yeah just respond which way we're going now. >> Yeah. And I and I often talk about, you know, one of the things that I talk about is that I I um either um I either ignite conversations that matter or spark conversations that matter because me that for me the really important thing about the work that I do is enabling people who need to come together to have those conversations

(40:50) that matter. and and I you know the topic of the conversation is less important to me than the fact that the conversation takes place yeah >> in the right environment supported in the right way and gets them to where it really matters. >> So Gwen um who are the key influences in your practice? >> Oh wow.

(41:14) Um gosh I would I would have answered this very differently before my doctorate to now. Um so I think there will always be a very very important foundational influence um of uh Jervis Bush and Bob Marshek because for me they they pulled together the field of dialogic OD and I guess that's probably the heart and center of my practice.

(41:39) So for me they are two people who um I'm very grateful to them for the work that they did. they um they published my first book. So, you know, for me they are absolutely important um influencers, people who influence my practice and continue to influence my practice. I think I'm fascinated at the moment around um systemic approaches and I'm particularly fascinated by um by three female um authors.

(42:13) So the first one is um thinking in systems by Donella Meadows and and her work which which is is I think it's probably over 20 years old now maybe a little bit older than that but her leverage points for intervening in a system. I've been doing some work about um a post-doate because obviously you know it never stops and I'm about to kind of publish some articles on LinkedIn about kind of recreating that reimagining that for the current age.

(42:48) So so that work has and continues to be really influential. Margaret Weekly um science the new lead new leadership and leadership in the new science I'll get that right. um you know her work around what she brings about noticing in systems and about fractals and about you know there's just some beautiful stuff in her writing you know and particularly about our maps the old maps no longer work you know and and I kind of add on well we're drawing new ones as we go so there's something about shifting maps which ties in lovely to edge walking and wayfairing and then the

(43:24) third one is Nora Bateson who built on the fabulous work of of her father, Gregory Bateson. And I particularly like her work around warm data around um about all of that interreationship between it's the stuff between in a complex system which actually is the bit we we need to understand just as much as the um as the process and the the kind of the harder stuff in in systems thinking.

(43:57) Um and she also talks about uh what she calls sim simathosy I can never say it properly about how systems mutually learn um from each other as change starts to take place and as change starts to happen. And then she finally talks about hidden processes that create new patterns and possibilities of relationships which is kind of going on under the surface which for me is all about the relational dynamics that go on in teams that affect the outcomes of something when we when we when we're not paying close attention to what's going on in the hidden work.

(44:34) So those three ladies at the moment are really um captivating and influencing my my thinking postdoate. And I have to say the other person who has been a an influence for me for for kind of over 20 years is is the late Mayan Chong Judge. Um you know I I still refer back to her just in case series of videos where she kind of draw has drawn in so many amazing practitioners in the OD field.

(45:03) If you know people watching this haven't accessed that as a resource, please do because there's some amazing amazing people um who have got such wisdom in in there as well. >> That's a really wonderful kind of curated set of videos. Yeah, I enjoyed every single one of them. I've watched them multiple times.

(45:22) And of course there's the orgdev >> podcast because you you know both of you have had some incredible guests on um you know so there's a re again there's a really rich resource and I think it's so important for practitioners or whatever your level of experience in in the fields of OD to have somewhere to go for this kind of semiformal learning because it might not be the right time for you to invest financially in a formal qualification or formal more learning.

(45:52) So to be able to have places to go to access new knowledge and and hear people talking about their their craft and their art is is a fabulous resource. So thank you on behalf of the OD community for everything that you've done. >> So yes, you just mentioned a couple bits there about Nora Bateson and one of the things you talked about first was warm data.

(46:13) So what what is that for the unintroduced to that? Sounds like a fascinating term. So, so that's her recognition that in any system and in any piece of transformation there are all of the relational patterning and all of the relational system that exists because and that if you pay attention to it reveals connections and patterns and I will often connect that to social capital which is sort of you know I'm a big fan of Michael Arena and all of his writing and research and he was he did some fabulous stuff during the pandemic about helping people understand the

(46:53) nature of social capital and post pandemic how that can really help influence how you go about change and transformation and I don't know if you've had um any contact with Yep from invisor >> and he's done no he's done a lot of research about about finding out who who are the really the people who hold a lot of social capital in organizations which you can surface through warm data labs and warm data conversations as well as surfacing it through mapping your your OA your organizational network analysis through whatever means you choose to do

(47:30) it but what I love about Nora Bateson's approach is it is it is very um emergent and it's very ecological and it really encourages you to pay attention to both the hard side of the system and the relational side of the system. And I think if we overfocus on, you know, the processes, the feedback loops, the mapping, we we forget about all of the relational data that exists within within the the systems that we're trying to support and and nudge into whatever uh patterns they need to go into.

(48:07) >> Yeah, we were think one of the things that came up in the preme when we talked was kind of the impact of AI on on what we're doing. And one I think we talked about the kind of the idea of human- centered and and AI enabled. So what role do you see OD practitioners playing in kind of keeping almost humanity at the center as kind of we >> we accelerate adoption of AI? >> You know this is a really kind of probably a current hot topic for me from from two perspectives.

(48:31) >> I think one is a very personal perspective. So what does AI mean for me in my practice? So how do I equip myself as a as a an external OD practitioner who you know is a um runs an independent organization. I have informal alliances and associations with other OD practitioners that I will come together for a piece of work but sometimes I may not.

(49:03) How does AI enable me to shift my practice so I am able to review the way I go about my business development processes, writing proposals, winning work, designing that work, and delivering that work. So, so I've been through a very personal journey to upskill myself >> um more in in AI and and different AI platforms and apps and tools and things.

(49:28) And that's an ongoing journey because of course it keeps changing uh weekly. Um so that's one aspect of it. And I think when you start to do that learning yourself, you then start to see some of the organizational possibilities. So yes, as an OD practitioner, what is it that I can do outside of the room which might be AI enabled, which enables me to be much more relationally centric when I'm in the room and also what how else can I be AI enabled in the room? then helps me and my client with whatever it is that we're doing that enables us to

(50:09) set aside some things which might be more uh which can be easily taken care of by AI and enables us again to focus on more relational things. So that's one element of it. And I also have noticed in my conversations with organizations that some organizations are viewing AI very broadly at an enterprise level.

(50:34) So how do how are we AI enabling our you know large crossf functional organizational enterprise level systems and that's brilliant. I have I have very little knowledge and very little desire to kind of delve into that. But where I am noticing what is also happening in some organizations but not all is how does each leader and each team create their own use of AI in an appropriate way for whatever that functional team is.

(51:11) So the TI sales team might adopt different AI related practices to the marketing team to the the technology team to the product development team and so what is the role of the leader there both how equipped do they feel personally and then what steps are they taking to encourage that experimentation that practicing that you know well if we have Microsoft co-pilot as an organization what cap what functional capabilities are opened up on co-pilot because a little bit like Microsoft Teams depending on the choices that you've made as the the CTO or the the CIO will

(51:52) depend on what is opened up for the rest of the organization in the way that they use the the platform. um plus what else are we able to use which might not be necessarily within co-pilot and what I've what I've learned and what I am learning is that if that team leader or that senior leader is willing to be open and experimental in a very collaborative way with the rest of their team they have a much higher likelihood of AI enabled practice to take hold within their team and the process of doing that can become very very relational. So and

(52:35) also free up time for more human related conversations because there is there is you know an element of our relational responsiveness which which we can't and we don't actually want to outsource to AI. We want to keep that human centered connection in organizations. So for me it's kind of multi- it's multi-level and multi-dimensional.

(52:59) Um I'm I'm busy discovering >> quite a big question but when you look back over your career so far what are some of the biggest lessons you've learned that you you carry forward with you? >> I think one of my very earliest ones was that my I'm laughing because I I still cringe when I think about this.

(53:17) How to do change really really badly and to try and just go in and tell everybody what you think they should do. Uh that was probably one of my biggest learnings and actually got me on the pathway that took me to work in OD. >> Um you know I thought culture change was just me going in and telling people this is how it should be and that was between head office and stores because I was very passionate about the fact that head office were doing things when they wanted to because they wanted to and they weren't considering the impact of

(53:45) their choices on their on their store network. So that that was the my first lesson in how to do change badly. Um >> and and that's a really rich place to learn though, isn't it? Because like that's a a structure that's replicated in many organizations where it's asymmetrical. It could be a dominant country or a dominant head office.

(54:04) And it's like it's that tension between localization and centralization as well, isn't there? And and and how do you get the balance right? But it's it's not a problem to be solved. It's often a tension to be managed, isn't it? >> Yes. Yes. You're right. You're right. and and and it does show up everywhere, you know, wherever you've got some sort of central local dynamic which nowadays with the way companies are set up globally. Um, and it's always a swing.

(54:28) How much do we localize? How much do we centralize? And and you know, organizations sometimes if you look at their cycles over 5 10 15 years, they kind of swing from one one way to the other. So you're right >> violently as well. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. It is it is a bit of a polarity and a paradox to be managed.

(54:46) I think the other learning which which really I was reminded I was viscerally reminded of is that when you when you embark upon a participatory co-creative approach where you're actually wanting the ownership to be with the people who are going to either bring the change to life or the change really impacts them.

(55:10) I still get surprised and have to manage my own kind of, oh, I'm not sure I'm quite ready yet for them to be quite so moving forward with it immediately. They're doing it sooner than I expected them to. So, so there's a reminders in that about how I still get surprised um in in a really delightful way once I've sort of calmed myself down of I was expecting them not to be doing that quite yet, but they're there so you know, let go of it. So, yes.

(55:38) So those that that's another reminder learning point for me about um I try and take a a kind of a behind the scenes guiding role as much as I can with longer term pieces of transformation work because I feel as an external consultant I want to be there but I want to be quite invisible to the whole organization.

(56:03) It's not about me going I'm here and you know I'm going to do this transformation to you, you know, it's kind of what do I do behind the scenes to help different leaders in the organization be able to step forward in a very supported way. Um so it's reminding myself that actually when I'm in that role then that's the best role for me to be in.

(56:25) It's interesting, isn't it? Because often when we're commissioning or contracting, whether you're internal or external, um they always want certain what does it look like when the change happens? And we we never know, do we? Uh you know, you initiate and you're creating the conditions for change to happen, but how people embrace the change is always unknown, isn't there? >> It is. Yeah, it is.

(56:45) And it's and and there's a part of me that gets quite delighted when I get surprised. Um, and there's a part of me that kind of um, struggles with it as well in some respects because I think there's an element of of you build up pattern expectations. I'm back to patterns again. Um, you build up pattern expectations based on your previous experiences and and how valid are those.

(57:11) So there's that constant checking there's the constant checking of myself and my own assumptions which is why there is so much value in in partnering co-f facilitation you know that supervision all of those things are so so important when we are doing the kind of work that we are privileged and get invited in to do in organizations um to help support them through you know big periods of transformation and change >> and you've just come to the end of your doctorate.

(57:46) Um the question we always ask and I always have a little bit trepidation about asking you because obviously you deserve a rest after all of your hard work but how do you invest in your own learning and development after the doctorate? >> Oh it's an it's really interesting isn't it? So um at some point I probably will write another book but not right now.

(58:04) Um my pull and desire at the moment is to do to take my doctoral learning into organizational life and that's certainly where my focus is right now. But from a developmental perspective I am going to fulfill something that I almost started um before I started my doctorate and that is um supervision training.

(58:34) So I want to go through uh a certification and diploma in supervision for OD practitioners and change practitioners. >> Last question from us. Um so what advice would you give someone considering a career or at the foothills of their career in organization because your own pathway has been fascinating in itself has it about discovering organization development but what what advice you could give someone in the current context? I think there's something about an innate nature of curiosity which I think is I if I kind of looked upon across you know populations of OD

(59:06) consultants I think it's there's a commonality that we're kind of generally curious about organizations and about people's behavior. So, I think that's one thing I would encourage people to do is to be curious about, you know, the the organizational environment you're in at the moment and and and learn and practice asking really good questions because it's in the quality of the question that you will unpick and open up kind of more data about the situation.

(59:45) So going off and practicing asking questions and and doing that noticing thing that you know I'll come right back to an earlier part of our conversation which is about spotting patterns and and doing that noticing. So, so for me that's where I would and yeah and and just be just be curious about that and see where that takes you because there's so many different I guess like facets within the field of OD that each OD practitioner's journey will look very very different and the end destination may look very different depending on which level of the system

(1:00:24) we feel we are more naturally drawn to and attuned to. So I think that's probably the other bit of of advice is to um is to try and find out which level of the system you feel most affinity with and most comfort with. >> Yeah. And that's fascinating, isn't it? Because that has a big implication for your practice, isn't it? Particularly when you're trying to make sense of a system as well.

(1:00:48) >> Yes. Yes. Definitely. Definitely. And and so some people, you know, some people are much much happier doing one-to-one work and you can still practice the field of OD through onetoone work providing you have an awareness of the systemic impact of that work you're doing with that one individual, you know.

(1:01:10) So it doesn't all have to be about you know big transformation programs, large group interventions. You know there are so many different facets of it and you might decide to become really really skillful in a particular um in a particular methodology or or a particular approach that you want to become really skillful in.

(1:01:32) Or you might be somebody who kind of goes actually I'm quite experimental. I want to kind of merge a bit of world cafe with appreciative inquiry or open space and create a whole new methodology. You know, I think that's how that's how newness happens is with when people start experimenting. >> Brilliant advice.

(1:01:52) Um and something that a lot of people can follow. Um Gwen, we want to say huge thank you. Thank you for being so generous with your time and really being open with your approach and your experience and the learnings from your doctorate as well. Danny, what are you taking away from today's conversation? Yeah, there's so many things, but I think yeah, I've really appreciated you bringing your research research to life and kind of really sharing what you've learned through your doctoral research and give some really good practical insights into your OD

(1:02:16) practice. I think it's a real invitation for people to now to reflect on their own kind of role as edge walkers. So, I think if people could take that away and do that, that would be amazing. And then us as cultural anthropologists, I think it's a lovely kind of idea for people to adopt and think about. >> Brilliant.

(1:02:32) And yeah, I completely agree about the c cultural anthropology and and the particular thing we're going to have a bit of a think about is all about the rhythm of organizations and how you can identify the rhythms quite quickly um by all the little tales and clues that are going on there as well. So I think that's a fascinating place for people to look.

(1:02:48) Gwen, um what is the best place for people to follow your work? You've got two brilliant books that are out there. What's the best way for people to to follow your work and to connect with you if they're interested about learning more, read your work, or even connected with you to to engage with you? Yeah, I mean I would certainly say uh through LinkedIn.

(1:03:06) Um so I kind of will do regular posts. Some of them will be kind of more moving my thinking forward post-docctorate and sharing snippets of my doctorate in different ways. Um and then also sharing relating my doctorate work to the kind of consulting work um OD consulting work that I'm doing at the moment. So definitely through um through LinkedIn where you can find me and through either of my websites.

(1:03:31) So seeds of transformation has got its own website and I also have an omniworking website as well and both of those have pages through LinkedIn as well. >> Brilliant. Well, we'll make sure that all of those are in the show notes. If you're watching this now, check the show notes whether you're listening to on Bus, any of the audio platforms or on YouTube as well.

(1:03:51) Um, for those of you watching, if you've enjoyed it, please hit the like button and subscribe to be up to date with all of our latest guests. If you've really enjoyed the Gwen conversation and you'd like more time of us talking to Gwen, there is an earlier episode that we recorded where we did a bit of a deep dive into uh Omniwork, which is fascinating and full of loads of practical tips and tools and tactics uh that Gwen shared with us as well.

(1:04:14) And Gwen, most importantly, we want to say huge thank you to you. It's been a really great conversation. We've loved it. We've really enjoyed preparing for the conversation as well because it got us an opportunity to go back through your previous work as well. But thank you so much. It's been great. >> No, it's my pleasure and it's been wonderful to to join you both today and uh and it's always lovely to to have a conversation with you.

(1:04:33) So, thank you for inviting me. >> Fabulous. Thank you.