How to Deliver Strategy at Scale with Maria Farres Cancer Research UK

What does it take to deliver on an ambitious strategy – especially in a mission-driven organisation where the stakes are high and capacity is limited? How do you align people, processes, and systems to deliver on the organisation's ambitions? Our guest this week is the Maria Farres, Director of Organisational Development & Employee Experience at Cancer Research UK, where she leads work on org. development, leadership & talent, EDI, employee experience, and building change capability across the charity.

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We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

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Transcript

(00:00) Hi, welcome to the org dev podcast. So, what does it take to deliver on an ambitious strategy, especially in a missiondriven organization where the stakes are high and capacity is limited? How do you align people, processes, and systems to deliver on the organization's ambitions? We're absolutely delighted to be joined by Maria Farz today who's currently the director of organizational development and employee experience at Cancer Research UK where she leads work on organization development, leadership and talent, EDI, employee experience and
(00:33) building change capability across the charity. Maria's focus is on enabling the organization to align its people, process and systems, deliver on ambition, strategies, and ultimately accelerate the progress in beating cancer.
(00:50) Maria has had a fascinating career with over 20 years experience in organizational development, HR, and change leadership. And she's worked across multiple sectors from local government to global banks and international nonprofits. Throughout her career, Maria specialized in helping organizations navigate complexity, aligning systems thinking with practical interventions that drive real results through individuals, and along the way has gained a deep appreciation of how culture and context shape organization effectiveness.
(01:14) Of course, working in an organization like this, Maria is driven by purpose and chooses to work in organizations where her contribution has a positive impact on the wider community. Originally from Spain, Maria has lived and work in several countries. And outside of work, Maria is a busy mother of three very, very active boys. A teenager, a pre-teen, and a 10-year-old who thinks he's already grown up who keeps her grounded, energized, and constantly on her toes.
(01:36) So, thank you so much for making time for us, Mick. We really appreciate it. We're really looking forward to the conversation. Maria, it's lovely to have you with us. So, just to kick us off, just tell us a bit more about the work you do. What does organization development look like for you in the role that you're in currently? So, as you know, um, organizational development means very different things for a lot of people. The way I use it, the way I approach it is enabling me to translate the strategy of the
(02:07) organization what it really means for people's processes and systems and then work on aligning those elements. It is when you align those elements that then you get that elusive concept culture you know and when you really start using all those levers in the organization to enable that delivery. So that's what I do and what I do in cancer research.
(02:30) So he's working with at the moment we are developing the next three-year business plan uh based on a very ambitious strategy or a 10-year strategy. So what is the next chunk that we need to develop and then based on that we're looking around how we're going to make it happen. So I'm I I don't decide what needs to happen.
(02:49) That is for those that are very clever working around me. What I do is working with them and then say well if that's where you want to go what does it mean? Who do you need? What do you need them to do? How do you need them to behave? What what processes and systems are you going to put in place to enable them to do what you need them to do? And then that's that's where the fun starts. And they're really important questions, aren't they? And they don't always get asked in organizations.
(03:13) Strategy gets developed and then it's kind of there. But those really important questions about who who do you need to do it, how are we going to do it just don't get asked. So that's a really important role for OD to play. Do you think? Absolutely. And I think for me that is what that's that's the main shift between having a function that focuses maybe on learning and development only or or change only is when you bring all that you you ask that question.
(03:40) So what why is important that we do this? What is the impact you need to achieve? That impact needs to be aligned to that strategy. That is where your contribution, your value comes. This day and age, you know, with all the um constraints and pressures. I think more than ever, we have to prove that value day in day out.
(04:04) The only way you can do that is if you have a very clear link. If you want to do that, you need this. And this is how I'm going to help you get there. Otherwise everything else becomes a nice to have which are the first things that are cut when you get uh all those pressures. There's something isn't there about OD practitioners really asking questions to understand the strategy and being confident to to work with senior leaders in terms of having those conversations because sometimes they're quite they can be quite challenging. Absolutely. And and for me sometimes I
(04:34) define my role as as a translator. Yeah. So uh as I said I don't set the strategy I contribute as any of the senior managers in the organization the directors come together but I don't make those decisions that is for executive board the trustees to refine yeah so then my job then comes to let me help you translate that is that translation exercise that sometime is missing and then you have a big gap isn't it between your strategy and all the things you're putting in place and your business plan your those people initiatives that you're putting in place, they're not
(05:10) wrong, but you have an answer why these ones instead of those ones. There are always thousand things we could do in the people uh field. There are always a new training, a new program, new employee experience initiative, new approach. Why those ones and not these ones? So I have to be able to defend the use of resources, the effort, the focus.
(05:36) The only way you do that is by doing that translation. You have to close that gap and it's not easy and it's at a for me it's a space that is not usually occupied and even with OD practitioners they focus sometimes a lot on the initiative itself and they put a lot of effort isn't it on designing the initiative on on delivering it and when you look at it it's is it's really well designed and and supported but when you look beyond it what's the impact how it is aligned, why you doing this and not that falls flat sometimes. So I do believe organizational development really needs to start occupying that
(06:16) translation space a bit more to ensure that whatever it is we do, it has a strong rational. You describe yourself as you kind of deliberately chosen to work in purpose- driven organizations. What are the particular challenges? So you know I've worked in purpose-driven organizations.
(06:33) You've got a really strong mission but inevitably you've got limited capacity and resources. What's different about doing an OD in th those types of environments? The the drive or the need to really focus on what's important, the priority is so critical. Um, normally purposeless organizations, they're what what I call boundaryless. There's always something more that you could do because the mission is so big.
(06:57) If you were to do just that one more thing, that more relation, that one more relationship, that one more partnership, that one more fundraising, that's the key. Yeah. So you you keep pushing and pushing and it's so easy then to really um um do too much trying to to be all things for all people instead of really focusing on what's going to make the biggest difference the going to have the biggest impact.
(07:23) So in in purpose-led organizations, those organizations that have those constraints, but the mission is so big, identifying, clarifying, being really sure about your role, your unique contribution, and then what it is that you can do within that space is absolutely critical. So organizational development supporting that conversation, challenging when needed, asking the questions, helping them identify that so word.
(07:49) It's so important because um yeah um there's so many things we could do to try to encounter quicker. If only we had the money, if only we had the time, if only we had the people. But that's not going to happen.
(08:07) And there's risk of spreading everybody too thin, isn't there? If you try and do too many things and then you don't achieve Yeah. Yeah. Anything. Yeah. The other the other I think challenge with purpose organizations is so we have this very elusive thing that private organizations are are looking for which is that purpose. Yeah. You have one that people can connect. Not only connect but they own it. They they they live for it. They they is part of their own mission.
(08:27) So they interiorize it. Brilliant. Fantastic. You know a lot of private organizations will pay a lot of money or they're paying a lot of money to try to find that. We have that. We don't have to fight for that. What happen is sometimes individuals see the organization as a vehicle for them to deliver that contribution which means that sometimes misalignment happens and the things they believe are going to make the difference may not be the ones the organization have identified as the critical priorities.
(08:59) And then what happen is you get the situation where individuals may feel you don't have the autonomy to do your job because somebody's stopping you or you are not performing well because you're spread so thin or it's difficult to align projects across the organization because everybody's doing different things.
(09:24) So that is a shadow side that happens sometimes and you have to be quite careful to to navigate it because you don't want to squash that autonomy that empowerment. That's the energy that you have in in not for-p profofit organizations, purpose-led organizations. But at the same time, that clarity that that alignment, that direction has to be more clear than ever. And that sometimes is a challenge for our senior leaders.
(09:44) So we we really need to work with them to help them build that coherent narrative, ensure that that direction is is clearly stated, work with them in terms of finding the right balance between autonomy and control, between empowerment and and and and that alignment. Um so it's it's a very rich space to work with, but it's yeah, it's not all rosy all the time.
(10:10) Um so Maria um got so many questions I guess for viewers you know we're in 86 countries in the UK cancer UK is a very iconic organization it's touched and positively impact a lot of people just just for the people watching could you just give us a little idea of of the scale this is not a group of small group of volunteers shaking tins on a Saturday morning is it no not at all so cancer research the the mission is to support everybody to live free from the fear of cancer. Yeah.
(10:42) Be to live better lives. Yeah. Uh free from the fear of cancer. What that means is it focuses on funding vital research from all the way from prevention, detection, treatment and cure. And it's a really um ambitious organization. I think in the committed to in the next uh two to three years to reach up to 1.
(11:10) 5 billion pounds uh on funding research. So it is really large scale and um there's been a report published recently about the state of cancer care in the UK and in fact half of the medications that are used uh to treat cancer in the UK funded by the NHS have been touched by cancer research. So it is a quite an impressive organization.
(11:36) Um now in order to fund that research yes we do have fundraising um activities and those are through mass events through retail um you know our charity shops very important for us superto etc online presence but also um a growing uh philanthropic um approach to channel some of that wealth that is uh at the moment in the world focusing on on that research or supporting the the the researchers of the future or focusing on venture capital to commercialize some of the drugs or brokering children's and young uh young people's cancer care which is not very commercially viable. So there's not much research than it is. So cancer research has a unique place to really convene
(12:22) people and and broker that improvement. So it it does a huge range of of of activities to ensure that we have the right funding. uh for our researchers. And thank you for that because I think it's it's really useful for people watching because it just shows when you're trying to operationalize the the strategy, it's true complexity, isn't it? And I guess some of the things I was thinking about when you sort of said your role in terms of, you know, taking the strategy and helping people translate it. It's the intersection of so many things, isn't it? You've got
(12:51) strategic ambition, new initiatives, but you've also got a huge business as usual operation going on as well. And strategy goes in on the top. So how how do you work with the organization like how do you convene or work with to help them make sense of it and and work their way through it? That is that is a challenge that is a challenge in in any organization where you have to find that right balance between your run and then your change. Yeah. So your business as usual, you know, keeping your lights on,
(13:23) keeping the business ticking, but then you have all these very ambitious transformation initiatives that you know are going to make a difference. But as an organization, we don't have that many resources, isn't it, to um support BAU while putting them to do the change and it is a challenge and it's one that we face in um head on.
(13:47) My role there um in in cancer research is twofold. One is really helping with that um moving from the operational here and here and now people planning towards the more middle to longer term to to help the organization understand that when we talk about you know individual development, leadership, management, culture, behavior change, all those things take time.
(14:13) So anything you start doing now is going to have an impact maybe in 18 months. So if you're doing anything now because you have a need now then you are 18 months late. So you need to start identifying and putting things in place. So in 18 months when you really need it is ready otherwise all those remedial things that you put in place too little too late.
(14:37) So that's that's one thing helping to balance that and to bring that. The second thing is to really strengthening the people side of change management in the organization. Organization has a strong kind of change delivery focus but the people side of of change wasn't as strong as it could be. Uh so really helping understand the value why is so important what are the different approaches. So for example, the sponsor.
(15:06) So very strong on the executive side of sponsoring and making decisions, governance plans. Brilliant. Okay. But you need this other side which is your people side of the sponsoring. How are you going to explain your why? How you going to bring people with you? How you going to constantly communicate and be engaged? Uh that bit needed a bit of strengthening. So we are working there.
(15:26) So we can then start shifting that balance between run and change strengthening the side of change so it can be done more effectively and and you can start showing um the impact of all those transformation initiatives. Wow I love that kind of 18 months from now. So it's all always sort of future focused almost isn't it in everything it has to be now absolutely there are things that you can do to support the here and now but to support the here and now is more around performance aids.
(15:57) So the things that you can quickly access to have better conversations to address issues to you know give you some models etc that you can apply and I'm not underestimated how important those are but if you're looking at kind of improving management capability developing new leadership skills if you're talking about new ways of working you're talking about cultural behavioral change that it doesn't matter how good we are it's not going to happen because you put in place one training program that is something that is longer term and because you need consistency and you
(16:35) need to keep repeating and focusing on on those things you want to develop. That means that you need to have a very clear plan those 18 months where you're going to get because you're going to need to keep repeating and aligning messages and putting in place interventions that they all point to the same thing.
(16:55) if you want this leadership behavior then everything has to point to that because it's going to take time uh for that to to have the impact. So yeah, if you try to do that now because you have a problem now you're late.
(17:12) And you touched on something really important there, isn't it? Because in the lifetime of that 18 months, a lot of stuff happens, doesn't it? And other priorities emerge as well. And often just as you're starting to reap the the benefits of the 18-month program, often there's pressure to change direction and move on to other things.
(17:29) How do you maintain discipline as an organization, as a function to sort of follow these things through to completion? Well, I haven't found the trick yet. If I do, I'll let you know. I think if I had the trick, I will be probably be much more wealthy than I'm currently. But I think the important bit is to have that bigger strategic framework.
(17:54) What I mean is if you have the impact clear and that is an impact that has that very strong anchoring on the organization strategy you may shift how you're going to get there but is the get is that direction that provides you that will allow you to flex and adapt without losing your direction.
(18:15) But if you don't have that, if you just have interventions, then when something happens, oh, you stop this one and then you do this one, so this one is just halfway because you didn't have that ankle. That's why for me so important. So working with the team, for example, in the past it may been uh oh, you need to put in place a training for geni because geni is here and everybody wants to do it. Okay, no problem.
(18:34) That's a need. We're going to meet it. But that GNAI training is part of digital capability. So yes, we're going to deliver but we're then going to be able to explain how does this fit with the whole direction of troubling around digital transformation and how it's going to help you and how then it links with this next priority which is around cyber security and then it's going to help us link to the next priority which is uh we are implementing Salesforce.
(19:02) So how are we going to help that? And then it links with the next priority which is oh we now have Windows 11 you know all those things are coming but if you have that clarity that framework then you can build a narrative you can align programs you can identify opportunities to reinforce the message be consistent coherent.
(19:20) Now that doesn't mean that you're not going to attend what's coming absolutely but you can put it in a in a much better perspective and help people understand how things connect and not just random activities. My gosh, if you're watching this at home, rewind that bit again because that is the ticket, isn't it? It's um on a number of different reasons.
(19:46) And I guess because people can commit to an intervention, but if it doesn't get followed through and it just gets doesn't get ended, it just another one comes along. You soon get like fads come along, don't you? And less engagement. If people can relate it to the bigger picture, I guess the thing I was just wondering as you were sort of saying is you're kind of filling in a missing piece in a lot of strategies, isn't it? where strategies kind of look at the what and possibly even the why, but they don't necessarily link and and they don't articulate the capabilities that required to deliver on that. So is
(20:10) that is that a missing piece of the strategy that you come in to help organizations articulate? Absolutely. Absolutely. And and is one of the biggest shifts that I normally have to work with organizations around. So when you're talking about capability, what I'm I'm talking is about developing three things. One is the practice. Yeah.
(20:31) And for that I need to work with the capability owners. I I don't have the content the technical expertise they do. So I approach them and I ask in order for you to deliver your strategic agenda who needs to know what in the organization what do you need them to do with that what? So I help them define shape the capability.
(20:50) Let's put for example data. Yeah. So I go I go and work with those that are trying to make the shift in data and improve that and say okay so what out of data data is is a huge field isn't it so out of data for your agenda to be delivered what skills what knowledge do you need people to have so you can deliver what you have to deliver so we put that in a frame okay that's the practice then you have to be able to develop the skills you need for that practice Yeah. And those skills then that that's your training. Yeah. But that training is linked to your
(21:27) framework to to that shape of the capability. It's not just random programs. There's a structure and and you probably going to have different levels for different audiences in the organization, but you can explain how they link how they work together to deliver that impact.
(21:46) And then you have the third element which is okay for that practice and those skills to work in the way you need to work. What are the conditions that need to be in the organization for that capability to work in the way you need it to work? And here we talk about your governance, your resource allocation, your uh leadership, all the things that people bucket in that culture elusive elusive concept. Those are the conditions.
(22:12) So working with them to try and identify what do we need to shift, what do we need to shape for for your capability to work the way you need it to deliver your strategic agenda. And therefore then suddenly you move from having a conversation around I need a introduction to data training to this is what I need the organization to be able to do with data working in this way.
(22:35) these are the type of skills they're going to need to develop and this is how we need to govern and this is the leadership we need to make it happen. So you have um shift the conversation to that place where you needed to be for that longer term instead of the here and now. This is quickly becoming a textbook episode.
(22:56) So if you again rewind it good if anybody's watching this and you do a combined role of learning and organization development which we're seeing more of this is kind of like a blended approach isn't it which is it's conditions capability but all in context as well absolutely absolutely I said it's it's not easy also that that concept of capability ownership um I found it quite interesting in organizations I had to spend quite a bit of time convincing that group of individual that they are the owners, they are the experts. Therefore, they should want to shape the
(23:29) capability. Uh they should uh be able to to say this is the type of data capability this organization needs and this is why it needed and this is how it needs to happen. And that kind of moves that responsibility around that learning and development from being owned by a central team to actually be shared across organizations. The central team has a role.
(23:55) We know about adult learning. I know very little about data. You know about data. May know know much about adult learning. Well, let's work together. Let's partner so we can bring the best approach. Hi, we're just pausing this interview for a moment. Have you ever finished an episode of the org dev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points? Us too, so we made one.
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(24:56) You've got a highly developed perspective on how organizations work because you you can almost see inside your brain at the moment like how it all fits together and the big picture as well. So we're really curious like what was your journey into OD and and how has your experience sort of shaped your view as you've come into into cancer research? Um well I started working in OD before even I I knew there was something called OD. It just just happened.
(25:15) So uh in Spain when I was in university I joined this organization called Isaac which is an international studentled organization that must develop leadership young people so they can basically go and change the world. Yeah. So you start working with them as a volunteer and then um if you're interested you want to continue developing then you can get on leadership positions with the organization at national international level because it's present in more than 100 countries as international organization but the characteristic of this organization is that for those
(25:45) leadership positions you have to be elected. So you need to present your proposal, your application and then the members need to elect you which means that you have to be able to have a vision, articulate it, sell it to other convinces that that that's the vision and then you have to make it happen and you have one year cuz your your term is only one year.
(26:09) Uh after the one year you can be you can rerun for a second time but that's it. That's the limit. So imagine an organization full of young people very idealistic that want to change the world uh where leadership changes like 100% turnover leadership every single year on new energy new ideas new drive where you are not really risking much because you're still student so you don't have a mortgage you don't have you know it's not your job you're not dealing with an organization millions you know that you can lose so it's it's a relatively riskfree environment in for you to go and just shrine. So the best um experiential
(26:46) leadership development uh opportunity you could ever have. So that's where I started my training. That's where I started working and I had the opportunity to work across different countries. Um and and there I started to work with my last role with them was to work as um as a coach for the leadership teams in the different countries where they had maybe some challenges like internal challenge not having enough leadership pipeline going through or not enough membership or things.
(27:18) So work with them to put in place strategies to support it. So that is where I started working as I said in that organizational development space without knowing that that's how it was called. But for me it was the the that um sweet spot of individual potential and organizational impact and how could you bring those things together and and because when you bring it together is where you have individuals that can thrive but also organizations that can succeed because you need both. And so started working there. Then I spent one year in Uganda doing an
(27:55) internship with Presc you know contracts and things like that. Enough for me to know I didn't like that. So being there done that that's okay. I then moved to the Netherlands and I worked there for international bank for three years. Uh learned a lot did a lot of work around harmonizing standardizing processes and policies.
(28:20) So learned a lot about that kind of systemic approach to those policies and processes whilst maintaining the cultural differences because of the countries um and and how things land differently and then after 3 years left bankers identified that actually I needed something more than just a paycheck to wake me up in the morning. So moved to the UK, started working for local government here and start bringing that approach around moving from just learning and development to organizational development.
(28:50) So how can you use all the different leaders to really move organizations? So how do you need to design your performance management, your leadership and management, your talent? So all of that is aligned and contributes to the same direction and they're not just going all the different ways. I then worked for an international NGO for six years, then went back to local government and I'm now in cancer research.
(29:18) So, so that's that was my introduction to ODI. I just happened to find the space where I could as I said work with individuals and organizations at the same time. Uh, which I think is the best space ever to work. What a lovely varied experience you've had.
(29:36) Um, and how do you think your your your thinking around OD's evolved over your career? What did you used to believe or kind of what were your perspectives that have shifted? I think when I started I had a a more kind of naive expectation that you will find the answer. There will be one right way of doing things. You only had to know the right model, the right framework, the right tool resource applied and then magically things will happen. I have learned that is quite the opposite.
(30:05) So that shifted then for me to to try to learn as many tools, models, frameworks as possible to really build my toolbox. So then you can contextualize and apply bring a bit of this, a bit of that and and then depending on the organization. So I think that's that's one big learning.
(30:29) Second learning is you really need to meet the organization where the organization is. I have a challenge with that sometimes. my my my ambition. Sometimes it's a little bit higher to where the organization is. So it takes me a while to to work with the stakeholders and kind of bring them in. remember early in my career I had a a really wonderful manager and and she was telling me that one of my challenges was that I went from A to Z set like quickly and I had it very clear but I wasn't bringing people with me and some people needed that kind of sequence and the
(31:01) steps and understand if we do this then that will happen and happen it's almost like learning a new language is one that I'm still learning but yeah that shifted and then I think the last one is around perseverance like in this field. It's not that if you're not convinced on the work you're doing and and the value, it's quite easy to feel discouraged.
(31:29) Sometimes that longerterm perspective really is pushed aside because in the here and now you have so many fires from our colleagues in HR but also across the organization. So you really have to be very persever uh what's it what you you have to persevere a lot to keep with that direction that that keep aligning and building while you're dealing with the fires you know you get quite a few setbacks because also in this field um I'm not sure if you found it but I found quite often that a lot of senior leaders believe they are experts in leadership development and management development and cultural change and and
(32:06) you are there just to be a safe pair of hands. Yeah. Instead of really listening to the professional perspective. So you have to persevere. You have to find different ways. You have to really be on top of those influencing skills and it's not that easy. So I think those will be the three main lessons.
(32:25) And if you got any tools or I was going to ask that question tips because people listening Yeah. people listening will go yeah absolutely. I find that really a real challenge kind of getting senior leadership to to listen and and what what tricks and tips have you got that people could could try.
(32:44) I think one is it's really putting on the perspective of their agenda. So in the same way as the capability it's not used for me to say you know I have to improve data skills across the organization. It's about well you said that in order for you to deliver the piece of transformation you have identified that there are data gaps. Brilliant. Let me help you.
(33:03) So it's your agenda it's not mine and and working with that I found that that really helps. The second is that alignment uh when you have so many choices to do things why would you choose that particular one or why will you shape that initiative in that particular way? Well it's because it aligns it. It helps with that direction.
(33:24) That's quite important. And I think the third one is in terms of tips being really curious and constantly learning and and and experimenting and playing around with things like I I I realized the other day for example that I've been playing with chip since 2023. So that is two full years just because I like playing with you know things and you know curious and and learning.
(33:51) So you have to really keep that curiosity alive on your NOD because frameworks around I don't know systems thinking service design humanentric design there are a lot of tools there that really help you when you're trying to do large group interventions with OD when you try to design something around dynamics and power you wouldn't normally maybe not go there but if you start exploring that area so how does systems change happen.
(34:23) How the system innovation, how that cross with service design, human center design, what type of tools could I get from that richness around facilitation which is a critical element of that to bring into my practice as organiz a practitioner. So that's what I would really encourage people to do to really be opened and you don't never know exactly where you're going to find that missing piece that will help you design something in a particular way. Yeah. And one question I wanted to ask something that we see quite a lot because we get called into organizations
(34:58) and and sometimes they are really purpose driven. The mission is really clear. It's they're doing very important work but but teams do lose their way a little bit. they get kind of caught within themselves and maybe sometimes so you can't necessarily even if you have the strongest of purposes you can't assume that they'll be connected to it as well how do you make sure that people are connected to the purpose and the mission as well because again that's something that organizations on the whole could do a lot better isn't it I think I find that normally what
(35:28) happens is teams are connected with their own interpretation of that purpose and mission because the organization may have not put enough emphasis on really clarifying that mission or how they believe the organization is best placed to achieve that mission which means that then teams do that interpretation themselves.
(35:52) So it's not so much that they they're going on their way is the organization has allowed enabled them to translate that into their own language. Then there they there they go and then the organization complains well there's a gap if you're not crossing that gap they are going to do it.
(36:13) I have a bit of a way to explain that with a three circle model. So imagine three circles. So you have the small one, medium one and the large one. So on the large one on the outside that is your organization. Yeah. The organization could be the whole organization or it can be one of your directorates. That is where strategy happens. Yeah. That is where they decide the direction.
(36:32) Now organizations are an abstract concept. They don't really exist, isn't it? They just you decide to group different work in a particular way and that's what gives you an organization. So then the work to achieve that strategy doesn't happen on that auto war uh circle. It happens in the middle one which are your teams. That's where the work happens.
(36:53) That's where you start delivering what you decide as a strategy. Isn't it? So what you need to make sure is that the work those teams do aligned to that outer circle. But again teams are another abstract concept. They don't really exist. They are made of individuals. So therefore, in order to ensure that your teams work the way you need them to work to achieve their strategy, you have to ensure that the individuals in that team understand the direction, understand the behaviors they're expected to demonstrate, how they are supposed to do the work. So then the teams perform in the expected way with
(37:31) the ways of working that the organization are define to deliver the strategy. So in terms of helping those teams etc. You have to look at your three circles and you need to identify at what point the things are not aligning.
(37:50) Is it between the outer circle, the strategy and the team? Is it between the team and the individual? Is it between the individual and the bigger circle? And once you're able to identify where the misalignment is happening, then you can target your work. These things are too important to be left to chance, aren't they? And it's about designing with intention and understanding where to focus.
(38:07) You can't do everything, can you? It's like, you know, where's the sort of potential areas of focus that can really sort of connect the system in the right place as well. What do you enjoy most about your role? It's such a big role, isn't it? There's so many different facets to it. What what kind of brings you joy? I love working on that space on that intersection between a strategy and people and processes where where you need to have your head in the cloud but your feet firmly on the ground because you need to be able to think about possibilities and potential like cancer research. Cancer research is a hugely
(38:41) successful organization. They were before I joined. They weren't waiting for me to be successful. Okay, they were they they don't need me in that sense, but there is something I can contribute to to try to get to the purpose a bit quicker, a bit faster, a bit better.
(39:00) So that potential, that possibilities, that's what the head in the cloud is. But at the same time, you have to be firmly grounded where the organization is and identify sift through all those potentials and opportunities which one could make the biggest difference.
(39:19) Now here what are some of those pain points? What are some of the things that you could really start shifting? Um so working in that space really motivates me. Anybody that has worked with me ever will tell you that I am rubbish at delivery. Okay. I do not count on me like to to get things done on time and things like that because because I prefer the the the exploration, the the discovery, the possibility, the that sounds great, but what if? Yeah.
(39:46) And then surrounding myself with incredibly capable individuals that can take that madness and then make it happen and deliver. And when you look at the kind of field of OD at the moment, is there anything particularly interesting you in terms of how it's developing or so I think I believe I it's going through a similar shift that for example the L &D field went through.
(40:12) So there was a particular time where L & D started to shift from your role is to create content towards you actually your role is to curate and then sell the content making sure that people can access it can can have the impact because it's not about creating anymore. I think with OD we're starting to get there. There's been quite a bit development in terms of the theory what OD is what it's not.
(40:40) Sometimes I felt we spend a little bit too much time doing that. But anyway, I think it's is now getting to that point where things are mature enough to start thinking about what's the contribution that it needs to be to the organization and not so much the the individual practitioners cuz sometimes ODI focuses a lot on the individual practitioners but more around what is the ODI contribution at organizational system level and how it needs to operate at that.
(41:07) So that is that is a a a very interesting um shift that I'm starting to see that I'm I'm I'm really interested in. The other one is how can OD support organizations with that flexibility adaptability with getting quicker at reacting and adapting. Uh I mean we are saying with geni you can't do anything these days without talking about geni. Here I am talking about geni because it's everywhere.
(41:34) So for me it's not so much about the technical side of the training around how to use copilot or typ is what are the critical conditions that need to exist in organization for that geni to be fully embedded. I was reading a very interesting article today saying that the two main barriers that stopping organizations for fully embracing geni were failure to innovate and failure to scale. Those two things are firmly in the audio space.
(42:04) People that say oh I don't know AI because I don't have technology background. You don't need it. In OD we can really work with organizations and support them to identify barriers to innovation and barriers to scale up. So that's very exciting. Let's see if we can step up to the challenge.
(42:22) So we've talked about what brings you joy in kind of in the work you do. What do you find most challenging? Uh well I mentioned the delivery bit. You actually have to make things happen. It's that working with the teams to put in place the right road maps uh the right impact measurements and then monitoring that performance because some of the a interventions we put in place can feel quite high level or quite elusive.
(42:58) So, how do you know if they're having the right impact? How do you know you're going? Because if you're going to invest 18 months on doing something, you can't wait 18 months to to know if you're in the right track or not. So, that is a challenge to to to build that capability to help teams understand that just because it's OD doesn't mean that you can't be you cannot be rigorous about your performance and your monitoring and your impact.
(43:25) The other bit is is that attention to senior leadership in in a world where there is so much pressure and being a senior leader is becoming even more complicated that you ever was getting enough air time with them to have those deep difficult conversations to the level you need. It is a challenge. It is challenge. You're always competing with other prodigies.
(43:44) Um so that's challenging. When you look back at your career, what are some of the key lessons you've learned so far? First one is a leader is always a work in progress. If you ever find yourself in a point that you feel uh um I did it, no, I I go there, then you're very wrong cuz something is going to come and it's going to drop you out of your host and make you feel very very humble again.
(44:09) So So that's it. Second is yes, you learn much more from your mistakes than from things that um have gone well. Uh but you need to be able to embrace those mistakes and really learn and and and then make sure that you apply that learning. That organization that I mentioned that um leadership organization that I joined there was one year I was the national president of of the organization in Spain. I can't tell you the number of mistakes I made that year.
(44:39) Like huge ones and I learned so much. Was it painful? Yes, it was. But it really allowed me to grow and to develop and and to understand my leadership style, my strengths, but also the areas where I really needed help and support to continue developing. So I think that's another lesson. And the third one is um it's linked to the first one about that work in progress because change things evolving you know context uh changing so quickly you really need to keep learning so that curiosity and focus on continuous learning is absolutely critical being a
(45:17) little or not like that doesn't matter you have to know some individuals sometimes say oh I you know I don't want to progress in my career I just want to continue doing my job. What they don't understand is that job is probably not going to exist in the current format in 6 months of a year.
(45:35) So even to stand still doing what you're currently doing, you have to learn that this just there's no other uh possibility. So that is a very important lesson that I try to continue. Humility is such an important element of this, isn't it? Always learning and there's always, you know, and it's it's how you go with it as well. And talk on the subject of learning and development.
(45:51) You're an intensely busy senior leader. We've you've actually granted us some time literally just about 48 hours before your summer holiday. So, thank you for that. H how do you make time for your own learning and development? How do you keep sharp and sharpening your skills? One is you have to consider the learning and development is part of your job. It can't be an addition.
(46:14) Oh, I'll do that on my spare time or it has to be part of your job. And there are many different ways you can do that. One is to be really reflective on your practice. So you are constantly evaluating and assessing what went well, what didn't, what could I have done differently? So, so that perspective is absolutely critical when you react to something.
(46:35) Why did I react to that in that way? Why did it bother me so much that somebody that said this or that? What is because my beliefs are this ones, therefore this is my reaction. So you that you have to embed that in your in your normal practice. reading articles, podcasts, conferences, try to embed them as much as possible during your working day.
(46:55) Sometimes I encourage people just block two blocks of time in your calendar. The first one is your preferred time for learning even if it's an hour 30 minutes. But what you do is you have a backup block because if something very urgent happens on that block and you have to you still have the second one.
(47:13) Now don't touch the second one. Now if if you don't need to use the second one, brilliant. you have some time to think etc. But do that like build the practice of putting that learning and then I love reading and and and exploring which means that my young my my middle son he's football crazy so I spent a lot of time of my week driving here to training to matches and like hours and he's reached now the the age where I don't need to be in the pitch I can be in my car I do a lot of reading in the car while he's training football just you
(47:46) know going through LinkedIn and exploring one resource and then that takes me to the next one and then I go and look at for a free course uh or a book I can read uh or or a person I can speak with. So it it's a muscle and you constantly I mean I I think that's the only muscle I exercise this day but it is a muscle that I continue working on.
(48:10) Of those kind of res are there any particular books or podcasts that have really stuck with you that you would recommend to other people? So I'll say in in terms of book you've got um the kind of the organizational development practitioner guide from from Linda Hullbecks and and me and um absolutely essential I think like it's it's it's such a strong foundation and what I really like about that book is both Linda and me brought very different perspectives so Linda the focus on the organization and me the focus on the practitioner. So you have those two sides uh to work with. I found it
(48:47) fascinating. Thinking in systems by uh Donella Meadows uh brilliant as an introduction to system system thinking. It's called a primer because it's not too much in in detail but it really helps you understand the the main concepts in the area of system thinkings.
(49:12) There is a book it's it's not specifically for OD but I found it fascinated which is guns germs and steel by Jared Damund. What it does it talks about like evolution of societies and why certain societies evolved in a certain way and it wasn't so much you know about the capability or intellect of certain societies. It was actually about context and it was about access to plants and animals. So they got more viruses.
(49:36) So when they went to another country, they took all those viruses and killed all that native population and etc. But it's fascinating and it really helps you think about that systems and interdependencies and nonlinearity of how events work. It's fantastic. There is a person uh I follow on LinkedIn and I find him fascinated. His name is uh Robert Mesa.
(49:58) He his consultancy is aim for behavior. And why I follow him and I find him fascinating is because he is so generous with the resources he shares around behavioral change uh and linking to design and etc. And and it's such a good resource to introduce to the concept of behavioral change and what it means and how do you bring rigor to it um further than the typical nudging you know like I'm going to set nudges.
(50:25) Well, there's a little bit more to behavioral change to that. So I think is is a fantastic resource. Brilliant. What a great set of resources. I've definitely written down a couple of those from my holiday in a couple of weeks time as well. Thank you for that. Um I have I have one more one more. Um and I think this this one really and it's linked with the whole about continuous learning and curiosity and that was 100 years by Linda Gratton.
(50:51) 100 years life by Linda Gratton. fascinating book that explains that the old model of education, work, retirement is not here anymore. And therefore, the way you need to face that 100 year life is going to be very diffic different and it's probably going to be education work and then pause and then some more education and then and that the concept of retirement as we understood it is completely changing and evolving and what it means for organizations but also for individuals. It's another fantastic book and she's very much on our target list
(51:23) of potential guests. If Linda, if you're watching and you want to sell some more books, come on, come on the podcast. Brilliant. And the one of the original missions of the podcast is to inspire the next generation of organization development, design practitioners coming through and I think one of the things that we've learned is that people come from all sorts of different fields and that's what adds to the richness of the profession as well.
(51:46) What advice would you give to someone who's just considering the be getting a career in organization development or just taking their first steps? Organizational development to be a good organizational development practitioner, you need to understand all those organizational leaders, how they work, what is the and how can you shape them? How can you design them? I'm only talking about leaders.
(52:05) I'm talking about your from your management and leadership frameworks to your just capabilities learning development to your change behaviors all that will then make that culture as if culture but also a little bit around your processes and systems and when I talk about system it's not it's not technology it's your management systems your control system your decision- making systems yeah th those those bits that that support organization you need to be able to understand all of them and to identify which ones you're going to need to pull at any given time
(52:40) for that development. You can't be a successful organizational development practitioner by narrowing your field of practice that that is not going to help you. It may feel a little bit daunting. Uh it I always say how do you eat an elephant? Bite by bite. That's what you do.
(53:02) you keep your balance between, you know, developing your craft uh and your art as a practitioner because it's a craft and art and at the same time you keep building your toolbox. So you do a little bit around learning and development around management and and leadership about culture change, behavior change and you keep adding to your toolbox.
(53:22) You don't have to do it all at once, but you definitely need to build your toolbox as much as possible. Maria, we want to say a huge thank you. It's been a really brilliant interview. Um it's just brilliant when we bring people on the on the podcast that are making meaningful and significant change in their organizations and and you've shared so many brilliant insights.
(53:40) Um Danny, what are you taking away from today's conversation? Well, so I think this is going to be an episode that people are really going to enjoy and take a lot away from because it's been really practical um and grounded in kind of organizational reality. So I really enjoyed the the way you spoke about the OD roles, that translator of strategy. Um that's really important. um gonna stick with me.
(53:57) If you're doing something for an immediate need, then you're 18 months too late. So that idea of just planning ahead. Um I really like the three kind of level framework you talked about with capability building, the practices, the skills, and the and the conditions. Um and the backup time block for learning and development, having two blocks in your diary if the first one gets used up.
(54:16) I think that that would be really valuable for lots of people to apply when they're trying to create time for for important stuff. And for me, like we have a little marker button. So whenever we hear really great stuff, I hit the marker button so I can edit it and find it again easily. There's so much stuff in to all of what Danny said.
(54:34) And and I guess just building on some of those things, you know, just the reminder the importance of creating the conditions for the change to happen. I think sometimes we get so caught up on the skills and the intervention and all that, but it's the conditions that it works. And also, I love that saying, keep your head in the clouds, but your feet on the ground. Um, I think that's really sage advice to everyone as well.
(54:49) Um, so Mary, we want to say huge thank you. If people want to follow your work or keep up to date with your sort of latest thinking, what's the best way for people to to uh follow your work? Well, if they following LinkedIn, they can, you know, send me messages and we can connect there. Absolutely. Well, Maria, it's been brilliant.
(55:06) So, if those of you if you are watching this and you think I I know someone would really benefit from this, then please do share the podcast. uh we get so many shares every week and it's people sort of thinking I know someone who could really benefit from someone like Maria's well well-earned um professional insights as well then please do podcast is growing every single week if you have enjoyed it then please hit the like button and subscribe because the algorithm gods love it uh but most importantly Maria thank you so much it's the week before your holiday the really intense one you're just trying to clear
(55:35) the decks and you've made time for us and you've made time for the profession as well so on behalf of the OD professional I just want to say a huge thank you been really generous and been really excellent with all your insights. So, thank you. Thanks to you, too. It was brilliant to be part of this to have you with us.