Leading Transformation and Change with Sophy Pern Ammalo - OrgDev Episode 82

What really derails a change project – the plan, or the relationships behind it?
Our guest today, Sophy Pern, has spent her career helping leaders and teams untangle the relational dynamics that quietly shape whether strategy and change succeed or stall. An international consultant, facilitator and executive coach, she works with executive leaders on strategy engagement, organisation design, operating models, culture change and team development. Sophy is known for bringing depth, clarity and humanity to complex organisational challenges, and for building OD and Design capability in organisations and professional communities across Europe.

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

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Transcript

(00:00) Hi and welcome to the org dev podcast. So what happens on a change project when the internal team, the external consultants, and the client are all pulling in different directions, but nobody's saying it out loud? And what if the real problem isn't the project plan, it's the unspoken dynamics between the people trying to deliver it? Today's guest has spent her career making sense of exactly those moments and helping organizations navigate the relational complexity that so often sits underneath strategy, structure, and change. We're absolutely delighted to be joined by
(00:30) Sophie Per. She's an international consultant, facilitator, executive coach, and one of the founding partners of the European Boutique Consultancy, Amalo. Sophie is one of three founding partners. She works with executive leaders and teams on strategy engagement, organization design, operating models, culture change, and team development.
(00:54) In recent years, she supported global organizations such as Domino's Pizza, Sandos, Nexan, and Britney Fairies. Her practice is founded on the understanding that change happens at individual, team, and organizational levels and always in the context of relationships. Sophie co-founded Metalogue and she was also a corporate client director at Ashridge Business School and she's held senior positions in other consultancies and worked for BP in France, Algeria, and the UK as well as living and working in Japan.
(01:17) Naturally, all of her extensive personal experience is underpinned by academic qualifications. She has a law degree from Cambridge, a masters in organization consultant from Ashridge and gained the Tavveristock certificate in coaching for leadership. And Sophie is based in Madrid. She's fluent in French and brings a truly cosmopolitan approach to her work.
(01:34) So, thank you so much for joining us, Sophie, on a very hot Friday afternoon. So, thank you. Thank you for having me. And I I see your UK heat and I raise you our Spanish heat. So, this is technically siesta time for you now, isn't it? Well, haven't had lunch yet or got to siesta, but I I think I'll be able to stay awake for a little bit.
(01:52) Thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here. [Music] So Garren's done a bit of an intro there, but just tell us a bit more about the work you do. What does your what's your focus? What does your work involve? Um, so all sorts whole range of clients.
(02:15) So I often get asked, do you have a sector focus? And my answer is always no because actually we're paying attention to what goes on between and across people and that's not necessarily sector specific but typically it will be working with leaders who are uh leading or in the middle of some significant change or transformation and helping them think about well strategically where do we need to go who do we need to be going there with so how do I think about what team needs to I need to have around me and what role we play in those teams how might we need to organ organized and how is culture going to
(02:45) trip us up and therefore what might we need to pay attention to in that culture space. So, so those types of of pieces of work often very internationally. So I often and it maybe something to do with my own history find myself working with teams that you know are covering multiple geographies or include people who from different nationalities across as I say whole host of sectors usually European headquartered I guess Europe is home for me and us at Amalo in some way but it can take us further a field from that and you know we've interviewed I think 75 people now for the podcast all all
(03:22) under the kind of umbrella of organization development. What does organization development mean to you? What's your particular flavor of organization development? It's a it's a great question. I think I probably had a slightly unusual path into OD because I think quite a lot of people come to OD after a first type of career whether it's project management or strategy or HR or something and then they get interested in how do organizations work and then they sort of get more and more into AD. And actually
(03:54) for me, luck and circumstance had it that I was working in BP in their graduate development program quite early in my career because probably age 23 24 and I fell into this OD team and I thought you know what this is what I want to be when I grow up and I was you know 24 everybody's going well you know what are you going to do career-wise and actually the OD space just made um a lot of sense to me and I think I'd always been interested in as you know as a teenager how does society work? So I education in France you do philosophy and economics and sociology and history and geography and I really enjoyed that
(04:34) looking at society through different lenses and OD has some of that looking at organization and what's going on but through different lenses to me it is about that individuals team systems never being stuck in just one lens and one perspective I think is probably what I love about it what I continue to find interesting fascinating so Yeah, I think I've probably been very lucky to fall into the field quite early and stay there. I think you might be just our second person who's who's who's said that. One
(05:04) of a person who said I I knew from a very young age. Um and what about that interplay between organization development and organization design? How does that show up in your work? I think one of my favorite stories about that was a colleague of mine at Ashridge who joined Ashid consulting to do OD and three months on in discovered that actually at Ashridge they meant organization development and she thought it meant organization design and she'd got all the way through the recruitment process and three months in before working out that actually there were two
(05:32) different D's going on here. Um I to me there is broad organization development of which design is a part and a really important part and that you know and sometimes perhaps underplayed and in fact we had some conversations I know you were with Toby Lindsay last uh last week but we had some conversations over the last two three years about this notion of suits and cardigans and you know the the OD development folk perhaps sometimes overfocusing on the psychonamics and the psychology and sometimes uh the design folk maybe perhaps over focusing on
(06:08) structure but I see them as as completely intertwined and different sides of a same coin if I'm being purist I think about development and design as a subset but it's not something I can die in a ditch over I do think it's important to pay attention to both and we talk quite a lot at Amalo about this idea of dynamics and design you can't it's a both and not an either all one of the things you mentioned in your introduction there is that you're often been quite heavily involved in transformations and that's a kind of a
(06:37) term that that many organizations are kind of grappling with but not all transformations are equal. What are what are the sort of the breadth of different kind of transformations that you support? Oh, it's a good question. Um I think transformation is one of those really interesting words a bit like strategy that often means different things to different people.
(07:03) Um so one of the things that I hold in mind is you know is this fundamental change versus evolution? Neither is right or wrong but it's helpful to to be clear um and how is it being framed and thought about at a at a senior um you probably executive team level and then which levers are people leaning into. So I I get quite twitchy when a transformation becomes a transformation office.
(07:30) Uh not that there's anything wrong with transformation offices, but I sometimes notice them turning into quite controlling functions and perhaps unwittingly reinforcing some of the changes that might need to be made. Um, where my work often takes me is questions for an exec team around what did we used to believe, what do we no longer believe, what needs to be true in the world that we're thinking about, which then quite often does get you into questions of design.
(08:03) So, you know, if we fundamentally used to believe that this capability was critical, but now it's this one, how do we organize around that? You know a good example of that would be a generics business going well actually if historically our R&D and customer intimacy was where we really made a difference actually as a generics business those may not be the key capabilities as a generics business maybe the key capabilities are that operational efficiency so what needs to be true what need to be what do we need to be paying attention to and that feels transformative to me we're believing
(08:35) something different about the business we're in and the context we're in has a whole load consequences, but that's where I I see transformation being significant. Uh yeah, and that's probably where I end up playing the work that I do.
(08:54) I really like what you're saying there because it's there there's that it's sort of adding a precision to it and a definition to it so that people agree before we go forwards. Often transformations, they could be all types of different transformations, but are are you finding that many sort of seniorities don't do that groundwork up front to make sure that we're all aligned in terms of what we're trying to create? And I love what you're saying there in terms of what it was and what we want to be as well. So we're all kind of crisply aligned. Absolutely.
(09:18) And I think I So the answer to your question is yes. I probably do see um well I'd like to say the teams I I work with don't forget to do that because I'd like to think that part of my role is to make that happen. But that may be me being judge and jury. Um I think where I hear about and see teams struggling is sometimes actually that collective sense making and processing hasn't been done and we've outsourced the thinking and the processing of that to someone else and it's been presented to the leadership team but not necessarily worked through as a team. Uh and that is probably where I
(09:59) see quite a bit of the struggle. So we've been told that and even at a senior leadership team, you know, we've been told that the strategy is now this and this is what it means and it looks good on paper and rationally makes sense, but we haven't actually processed what that might really mean for us.
(10:18) So that kind of collective sense making looking at the picture, what might it mean? Therefore, what might we need to do? I think we I think teams sometimes skip over that in in terms of um the pace. I was with a a CEO this morning, my colleague and I with a CEO this morning and she said, "At the moment your lead, it's like a pizza. At the moment, your leadership team are all sitting on their bit of pizza, managing their bit of pizza, but nobody's actually seeing the whole pizza and feeling accountable for the whole pizza." I like jigsaw puzzles more than
(10:50) pizzas, but I do think there's something in that seeing the whole system, understanding the whole system, and doing it together. And optional question for this is just professional curiosity. So um because to to transform means that something from the past is not right and so you know not right or it's no longer needed which may be different.
(11:13) I guess well I guess it depends on how it's felt isn't it within the organization. So it's like trans new is good transformation office transformation director whoever it is and yet people in the organization that have worked incredibly hard to get the organization to where it is. Yeah.
(11:31) How do you kind of honor the past to bring those people? That's a really good question and actually a while ago um we did some research when I was one of the partners at Metalog and we did some research into the different metaphors that underpinned transformations. Uh and I think there was something really helpful in that and and actually I think a criticism I would have is too often leaders jump to the cliched metaphors that are out there.
(11:49) So you must win battles, you're burning platforms and they're they're fine but they may not actually be right for the reality of that organization. So if I think about an organization I did a lot of work with over a number of years when you stopped and thought about it really the metaphor that the CEO was holding in mind for the transformation and it was a transformation that he has led and continues to lead um was of renovating a really beautiful old house and the way he talked about it that's what came through. So, he talked
(12:21) about this is a beautiful old house. We love it. It's a bit unusual. It's a bit quirky. The plumbing doesn't always work great. And by the way, you know, the wiring perhaps we need to pay attention to it, but it is a beautiful old house and we need to hold on to the spirit and the soul of the house as we improve it.
(12:40) Well, that's very different from burning platform when the past is bad. So paying real attention to what's the metaphor and what are the messages of the metaphor I think is really helpful and helping leaders to be really conscious about what metaphors they choose, what the unintended consequences of some of those metaphors might be.
(13:00) But another client I'm working with at the moment and there's a piece about how they can be more agile. there's a lot of work for them to do in the digital space and we've just started exploring it and the phrase that comes around is and then we create trile and a question I'm holding for myself is this could become useful organizational language it could become quite a fun code work oh there's a there's some more trile how can we cut through the trial move but then the other bit I'm thinking about is the trile makers who are doing an important
(13:30) thing on behalf of the organization might not feel great about being described as the trile film makers. So, how do we think about that? How we thought I don't know if that's a good answer to the optional question. No, no. It's fantastic. And I'm sure cut it. Why not? No. No. That was that was proudly say Well, yeah.
(13:48) Well, because I think what what I love, for example, what you said about with the the old home that we love. What it does, it kind of sort of says that there's a lot of things that are not in scope and we all appreciate the beauty of what we have, but we can all agree that the plumbing doesn't work, can't we? Yeah.
(14:06) And so what it does it kind of sort of says well let's let's work on that and then you can get that kind of agreement but we know what's in scope and out of scope as well. So I think there's something that's really because often the temptation is to bring it's new and you know often comes in with others that are sort of saying you know one of the classic things about regime change is to sort of say out with the old out with the old but you like you saying the people the trle makers the unsung heroes of many organizations are the ones that really hold the things together. So how can we respect them as well? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and really honor what people care about. Hi, we're just pausing this interview
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(15:18) You know, what was your journey into? So that you sort of mentioned finding it at BP. What what was your journey from from here to now? So yes, so um you know, education very interested in the social sciences. So by the time I got out of university, dabbled in in all of those, established I'd be a really bad solicitor. So that was, you know, helpful clarification.
(15:38) If you have a law degree from Cambridge, it's useful to know that you shouldn't go and try and become a magic circle solicitor. And thought, well, I better do something. Ended up joining BP on graduate development program with a view that that probably allowed some mix of disciplines, which I guess there's something about that that's always been appealing.
(15:55) um found myself in this European OD team and there was just again luck some really deeply skilled OD folk around. So I think about a Neil Samuels and Brian Wishart some you know some people who are you know probably now retired but had they had real vision around the need to develop that capability for BP.
(16:17) So they brought Chris Wallally over to teachers OD for a week. I just thought oh that's nice to join nice chat. Now I'm like, oh, not sure I appreciated the significance of that. That's not normal. That isn't normal. Not normal. It's not everybody's not doing this.
(16:37) Um, so I was very lucky to have some great grounding and mentorship early in career. And then they um at the time BP had a uh an open job sourcing platform and this role came up in Algeria of all places and it was called organizational capability advisor. um and I applied and essentially it was a joint venture between BP sonet track and stat and the uh a key question was how do we develop more uh national Algerian capability to take on these roles because it's part of the um contracts that we you know give back to the country who you have the agreement with.
(17:10) So I applied for this role, you know, aged about 25, 26, and they did a phone interview with me. And then they said, well, you you should probably come visit before you say yes. And I, okay, fine. Uh because this role was a three weeks on, three weeks off a little little bit by being offshore.
(17:28) And uh Trey my way into Gatwick at 4:00 a.m. in the morning for a charter flight out to Hassim Mound. And I looked around and I realized I was not normal for this place. And it was largely uh older. There was a lot of drillers. There were a lot of um mechanical process engineers etc. that there weren't many other women. In fact, there might have been none.
(17:54) Uh and there weren't any people who were under 30. So I guess that's why they wanted me to come and visit. I ended up doing two, three years out there working on how we set up the operation, how we developed staff, how we designed, all those kind of things. And it was an amazing um sandbox because I got to say to the nice people in BP that none of the stuff they suggested could be used here because we were a joint venture.
(18:19) Um and as long as I could build the relationships and credibility with the business leaders in Algeria, they'd go that sounds sensible. Let's try it. So I had enormous scope and things to play with again unusually and early in career in a quite an unusual um context. So I did dabono six hats. Um various just fun things. Um and then from there ended up going back and doing a masters in change and consulting.
(18:44) Ended up working at Ash Business School doing some teaching but a lot of consulting work. Um creating metalogue, a lot of consulting work there. uh and and so it carried on and I probably towards yeah around sort of 30 established that much as I loved being in a big organization I probably had quite high autonomy needs and consulting in many ways was a more comfortable place for that because there's more there's variety which has always been really fascinating for me there's something about pace you have to go in and pick things up quite quickly and determine quite quickly where you might need to intervene you hold a different
(19:16) role and we might talk about this a little bit this you know what's the relationship ship between internal and external OD consultants. I have huge respect and admiration for my many internal OD consultant friends and huge recognition that sometimes as an external you can do and say things that an internal can't. Uh and that doesn't make you smarter or better.
(19:36) It just means you occupy a different role but it's a role that I probably sits um more more naturally for me. I had a question just going back to the the idea you were kind of young and female arriving in Algeria in kind of male-dominated environment. People that will people resonate with that um in their own situation.
(19:53) What did you do to establish credibility and navigate that? Were there particular things you found effective that other others might learn from? Yeah. So that's a really good question. Um what did I do? I was asked quite early on to facilitate a review of the operations organization and I I knew nothing about operations and I went of course yes of course I shall do that and then I thought I better go and figure out how I'm going to do this but I have this vivid memory of being down on site and this is this is not even Hassi Masal this is in Salah which is in the middle of the Sahara desert like a little bit
(20:27) mind-blowing and we were in this meeting room with the there were about seven or eight Algerian senior your son track employees, four or five Americans, four or five Norwegians on opposite sides of the table, all looking quite grumpy. I happen to speak French, so that helped me with the relationship building across and in some ways because I was an outsider to everyone that was quite helpful.
(20:51) I wasn't another BP person or a son track person or a stat person. So, there's something about being on the boundary that was quite helpful. but building relationships, connecting those type of things and actually being a little bit creative and irreverent.
(21:09) So I got the making deono paper hats and saying actually I want instead of you being the sonot track person. I want you to be the positive person and I want you to be the critical person. And there was something about bringing in processes and ways of being that worked. And I I was very obviously different and I just kind of had to be okay with that. And I again we might talk about this in the context of the research that Andrew and I did.
(21:29) There is something about being comfortable with being on the boundary which I think for OD and for consulting work is quite important and British but grew up in France I've been not quite fully in anywhere all my life. So I have a degree of comfort with that that perhaps helps.
(21:48) Um so I'm not going to be fully in and okay that I can I I can live with that but that doesn't mean I don't put a lot of um energy in into the relationships. And actually when I left Algeria or when I've been there a while, people said, "Oh, we always know when you're around because you're always running around laughing. We can hear you. You're always making jokes with people.
(22:07) " But there's something about connecting around humor that I think helps with the relationships. Humor is an incredibly important tool, isn't it? It it can be used really well or sometimes it can be used in a damaging fashion, can't it, as well? So sometimes it's gallows humor, but that kind of sort of helping people build that connection because the small talk is what allows you to do the big talk, isn't it? Yeah.
(22:25) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And a bit of you know self-deprecation is a wonderful British trait actually of you know there are things you know laughing at yourself with others can be really helpful in avoiding a big power differential. Yeah.
(22:43) And just just one thing we because we were talking to Dave Sloan the other day and one of his sort of change methodologies is about creating anomalies to uh to create change. I was just a giant walking anomaly in Algeria. That's well that's where my question is going is just the fact that you are an anomaly like just being particularly was yeah in that context. Yeah.
(23:02) So how did you see the organization start to operate differently as a result of you building these connections and this irreverent not irreverent but just like building those connections in this way. So there was a little bit of I probably played a bit of a um is it m do you know in Gladwell's um tipping point he talks about mavens people who sort of connect. I probably had a bit of that role.
(23:21) So I was good friends and close with some of the algians. Probably that came a bit more naturally to me because of language and age and a number of um of things. But I was also able to relate really well to my BP colleagues and my statutoil colleagues.
(23:39) So there was something about the ability to create connections um that I think played a part. And then the other thing I remember something we did really I I set up really deliberately that made a huge difference is I created a different collective conversations and as I think through my career and I you know I still find myself doing this today.
(23:57) Um I created a forum where we talked about how particular members of staff were developing had developed were going to but I got people talking about it together and that shifted perceptions of how it shifted how people were perceived. it shifted. Oh, we think Anoir uh you know, we can all see how much progress Anoir has made. I hope Anoir gets to listen to this. We all see how capable he is.
(24:20) We all see the potential. So, there was something about creating collective awareness and conversations. So, it was both developing individual relationships that were strong and hosting and holding collective spaces. Um, and I think I I always do that actually. Um, this I mean these conversations always get you thinking. I'm I'm always doing a lot of individual and collective.
(24:43) One question I wanted to ask as well is that you've been out in the field, you've done this extensive work in Algeria, different kind of places and then you go to Astridge and do the consulting which is when the theory really comes in as well. How did that sort of shape your approach and what were some of the big insights you took away from the consulting? It's a really good question.
(25:01) So actually after BP I went to a small consultancy did employer brand. I was there for three four years and they were really generous. They funded me to do my masters at Astridge and I knew a few people who had done it and I thought, you know, I I didn't want to do the masters too soon in career, but I felt like I had enough material to work with and it was brilliant and life-changing and, you know, undoubtedly one of the best things I've ever done in my career.
(25:25) For me, the difference in it was I went from I've read the slide to I've read the book and a grounding that doesn't come from reading the slide that comes from from read not only reading the book but they're having to write about it and actually I quite often these days I'm involved in OD capability development often in house and a real challenge is often there is learning that comes from having to write and having to recreate content and that is a normal expectation of an academic type you know Alevel university masters it's harder to create
(26:01) that expectation in a corporate piece of learning and yet from a learning perspective I think it really is critical um so there was something about the depth that you had to go into in terms of reading the need to produce things and the criteria in that masters was really all about reflexivity so there were also quite a few really um critical moments of having to examine your own practice and how you were getting in your own way which were incredibly helpful and you were put in situations where you had to go and do things that at some level were a bit confronting but I just had huge huge
(26:35) learning so yeah it it was a really transformational part of of my career and although it was a long time ago I I still draw a lot from that um and it gives me a sense of I know the ground I stand on that I didn't have in quite the same way before Yeah. And you said it was life-changing.
(26:54) Obviously, we'd be remiss if not to explore that as a little bit more depth. Was the Was the change gradual or cathartic and fast? Like like how do you sort of change your perspective? Yes. And let's play with polarities. Um I think what was really significant for me was it you got into and I can never remember what which means what but you got into your epistemologies and ontologies and why do you believe what you believe? Um and that was significant and quite um almost quite immediate of actually because the world that I bring a lot of my attention to is the world of people and organizations. Well actually
(27:32) that social constructionism. So that and I still sometimes work on this with clients. It's like well is this a machine? Is this something else? Is it a complex system? What might that mean? Um, and that was probably actually pretty uh immediate, you know, within a year or two. Some of the reflexivity stuff was too.
(27:57) So I was when I did it early 30s, I think um and you had to go and get some feedback from a client on a piece of work you done. So you know made up all the excuses about why no client would ever give you any feedback and then you thought I am actually going to have to go and do this. And I remember asking a particular client I said okay well I did this piece of work with you tell me about that.
(28:16) And uh I had a story in my head that I was too young and wasn't taken seriously and I wasn't the expert and I had to do a lot of hard work to establish credibility. And the first thing this client said to me, he said, "Yeah, within 5 minutes I thought you knew your stuff and you were credible.
(28:33) " I was like, "Oh, so I don't have to do all this work that I'm doing that's a thing of mine, not a thing of theirs." I still trip over myself every day. Of course I do. But that was quite transformational that okay, what's my stuff? what's their stuff? How do I really pay attention to that? It's a muscle, not something you've ever acquired. But that I think was quite um transformational too.
(28:52) You mentioned the research you did with Andrew Day around the cool and the the paper that came out of it called dancing in a triangle. That was about the kind of that tricky relationship sometimes between internals and externals you encounter as consultants. So just tell us a bit more about what inspired looking into that area and the kind of the metaphor you've used.
(29:11) I think we both got interested in um what goes on between originally actually I think we got interested in it. We both noticed all of the work that we were doing involved some kind of internal consultant often OD but might be HR could be could be different you know and and a client and we thought but it's interesting sometimes the relationship with the internal OD type person is great sometimes it's not what's all that about um and and it's always there and actually we never pay you know in the OD literature there's a lot on clients and contracting but there
(29:44) isn't very much on the notion of it as a triangle. So it started from a place of curiosity around what goes on with our OD our OD friends over there. Um but then it helps to sort of paint this picture of a of a triangle. Um and I think you know both he and I as we speak often go goodness we we use this every day.
(30:09) You know every day we come back to wait a minute who's in the triangle what's the contract? Are they playing their role? Can they play their role? What are some of the game? But it started from the curiosity of what goes on between the internal and OD consultants. And I guess maybe part of the reason that we were both drawn to that is we've both been internals as both as well as being external.
(30:30) So they're more perhaps more figural for us than they would be um had we not had that experience. I think it's a really good paper and I' I'd recommend anybody who's listening either whether they're the intern or the external kind of looks at that because it's got some really good kind of provocation I think and recommendations. So what's what are the kind of conditions that you found that kind of really make that collaboration effective or Well, I think the first and foremost in many ways is I think when we think of contracts and partnerships, we often think about two and we don't often think about three and actually it's almost never two. I mean,
(31:00) at most maybe it's two if you're coaching and even then there's a kind of often a bigger system, but actually if you're doing OD work, you'd be very lucky to have just a two-way partnership or contract because can you can you do effective OD work if it's just Yeah. Yeah. So, even just shifting that the picture that I might see in my mind as I think about this is not two partners, it's a triangle.
(31:28) And actually of course as soon as you present it some smart ass goes well I've got a pentagon. We go of course you do but but the point is it's not just two. So triangle is a simplifi is again another simplification. But I think the first kind of big thing that comes out of it for us is this notion of thinking in more dimensions than just two.
(31:47) So I think that is a really important one. And then you, you know, keep coming back to the basics and fundamentals of who is the client, what is the contract, what is the three-way contract, have we had that three-way contract in conversation? Have we named our needs? Those type of things.
(32:08) If I'm going to be able to name my needs, I need to be doing that work around, you know, myself as instrument and others. Um, so keep coming back to that. And what's the ongoing quality of those conversations? So, you know, contracting as a verb, not contracting as a noun. Are we coming back to them? Are we making sense of what's happening? And I think, you know, that the condition of success um which can be hard to hold on to in virtual organizations, matrixed organizations, all that good stuff is some good time for sense making and anytime I find myself working well with a colleague, be they internal or
(32:40) external, we're okay with space for what did you think? What do you think was going on? I think this and that kind of free flowing okay and knowing and understanding the value of that and protecting that really critical there's sometimes some work to do to get both you know your client and your internal person aware of the need for that space and I guess the challenge is is that because that's essential isn't it uh but often and and it's not what's this meeting for what are we going to do what are the action points sense make what'
(33:13) be nice wouldn't we hugging trees she's next. But it's essential, isn't it? And I think sometimes, you know, for for consultants, it's just that's just has to be if you're an external, it just has to be priced in. It's just that is an essential ingredient that lubricates the the the contract to work well, doesn't it? Yeah.
(33:33) And my worry, my challenge has never really been about the pricing for it, but it's more I've had great experiences and not such great experiences in creating making it a legitimate activity. So, you know, at worst I've worked with change managers, quote unquote, who are who are running a project plan in a very mechanistic way.
(33:57) So, there's a 30 minute project plan review and it's on Tuesday at 3:00 and we look at the project plan and off we go. And I'm like, well, this hasn't really there's no space for sense making. It's a kind of tick list checklist piece and you need some of that sometimes but it delegitimizes then actually we need a more open flowing what are people noticing what's going on what are you picking up on that and when when things are being run in that kind of overly rigid paint by numbers project management it then it can become quite hard to make it legitimate to have a more open conversation unless you subvert some of the project management
(34:29) processes you can do that I've done that we're going to have a risk session it's going to because you can build that sense making into things like a risk session if you design it in a certain way. Brilliant.
(34:45) And the other thing you talk about really nicely in that paper is the parallel process and how that kind of plays a you know shows up and and what that does. Can you explain explore just articulate that a little bit more for us? Yes. So and again I think it does come back to this you know awareness of self awareness of others is just thinking and particularly when you have a consulting team you know you can sometimes find yourself split or you know oh they like you and they really value you but not so much me sometimes it might just be a case of not the right fit and I think we have to you know be thoughtful about that but
(35:16) sometimes that might be that whoever that consultant is is bringing in something that the system can't hear and rejecting them is a continuation of a pattern of rejecting something in the system. So again that paying attention to that in the team and not not taking everything at face value I think is a really important um part.
(35:40) I jokingly with a colleague this week we were doing some work with some couple of execs stepping into leadership roles and we jokingly said you are you if we were them would you be Pete and would I be Sally or am I Sally and are you Pete? So just that you know yeah what's going on here? What might we in our team be replicating that's in their system? I sometimes I maybe have a quite a strong get things done.
(36:07) Sometimes I can get seduced into yes, we'll just jump to some action without really thinking through what might be going on here. Sometimes the system is inviting that in me. And I love what you're saying because there there's there there's one thing there's so much value in that. I think people need to rewind that and listen to that again and definitely read the paper.
(36:25) It's very easy if you haven't done the work on yourself in terms of doing the reflexivity, writing the papers, thinking about, you know, how you see things that you could very easily take it really personally. Yes, I'm being rejected. You don't like me. What am I doing? I'm not capable. Oh, all these little things in my life. It just tells me everything in my life. It's not often that, is it? Sometimes it is, but most of the time it's not.
(36:51) And that's how do you do that as a team or an individual to be aware of that? I mean bless him. I you know I I often call Andrew go can I just this is happening and and there is something about that really informal peer supervision piece with others who have done their work and and actually being formally or informally contracted for can I just test this out with you? What are you seeing? What do you think of this? Can you help me think about that? And it's one of the reasons why I have always wanted to be in a practice rather than an individual practitioner. So
(37:28) there's something really important for me in Amalo as a community of practitioners because I think we need partic if you come back to this idea of working on the boundary. If you're on the boundary of a client system, then you're always at risk of being excluded. Then you have to be okay to cope with that.
(37:54) But if you don't have a system of your own elsewhere that you feel safe enough in, then I would argue that that's too much anxiety to hold. Um, or it's at least it's a hell of a lot of anxiety to hold. Um, so for me, there is something about that community of practice being a holding ground from which you can go out and do really good work. And part of the role of that holding ground is to be able to have some of those conversations around is this a me thing? Is it a client thing? We know each other well enough that you can say to me, you know, I'll call on Andrew again a few weeks ago. I said to him, look, can I just talk to you about
(38:25) this very describe the situation? And he said, you are being very critical of that client. It's unlike you to be that critical. What's that about? So knowing each other well, having that degree of talent, knowing you it's safe, you know, knowing you're in good hands. I find all of that very hard to do on my own.
(38:45) I think there are things you can do on your own, of course, but back to that kind of sense making, peer supervision or proper supervision to, you know, both and not either or. Um, yeah, I think some of those practices of being in community and in connection and in learning are really helpful. Yeah, it sounds like OD is a team sport, doesn't it? And I guess um one of the things you just mentioned earlier is you talked about building internal OD capability u which is really important isn't it? I'm assuming when you're
(39:13) building a is an OD, you're not just building OD practitioners. These are people that got other jobs that you're weaving an OD Yeah. lens into. What What does that look like? And and and what's enough to get people around? Right. So, sometimes you have people who have OD roles, sometimes you have um often it's HRBPS who are looking to stretch into more of that OD space.
(39:39) Um and so that you know there is a piece that is some skill build and theory and exercises and all those kind of things. But I think there's also when when we do it really well, there's something about um so I think about a lovely piece of work I did with a colleague last year where we built some OD skills in the HR function, but actually we did it as an inquiry into the effectiveness of the HR function.
(40:00) So coming into the workshop, they had had to go and do some inquiry with the broader system around how is the HR function perceived and what do we do well and what do we not do so well. And then in the course of the um workshop, we did some skills stuff. You know, we talked about metaphors for organization and contracting skills and OG cycle and all that kind of good stuff.
(40:22) But we also said and so what are we learning now about ourselves as a function and a system and what are we seeing and what might we do now? And it led to them actually making some changes to how they were running the function and evolving their design and some conversations among leaders. So there's something about at its best that work can be not only individually developmental but it's developing the team and developing um the system and it's you know a two-day workshop's never going to do it.
(40:47) That doesn't mean there isn't a two-day workshop or a three-day or four day or whatever, but there's what comes around that enables um that capability to be used in the organization I think is a really important question. And whether it's you know some action learning, some peer coaching, some peer supervision that but just training people up to do OD and then leaving them in a system with no support.
(41:12) I'm well it sounds really interest because it sounds almost like that was the real commission isn't it? It's like you know cuz sometimes it is oh let's get some OD capability and it's like well they ask why do you think you need OD capability and is there something around in the way in which the the team works with the rest of the organization or how it's perceived and what will be the conditions of success but because if if what you're doing is injecting competence into some individuals and then sending them off into an unchanged system I'd suggest that their chances of success are quite low. So what do you need to do from a
(41:39) team and system perspective so that those capabilities can actually be used otherwise you're just training people to become independent consultants in five years time which is fine very very true right because they're going to go well can I be heard here can I is there a re does the system see this as a role that's legitimate that can be filled by an internal person and actually the answer to that might well be no and if that's the case and people really have a an you know a kind of appetite and energy for OD they probably are going to
(42:13) go and find a way to get that need met discuss really interesting though we could talk about that for hours what do you enjoy most about the work you do about working in OD oh uh I what do I enjoy most about the work that I do I love the variety I love the pace uh I love my colleagues I love that I get to work with people I you know value and have a laugh with and do some, you know, it's a both uh it's fun and serious at the same time.
(42:43) I like I I I like the big picture piece. So, I like that quite quickly you have to work out what's what are the key drivers for this organization. What's really going on? What do we need to pay attention to? So, there's an intellectual curiosity. Because I have quite a large ego, I like the fact that it comes with a degree of influence and impact.
(43:03) So although I might not have a, you know, gold watch and a fancy car, I feel I can have quite significant impact. Um, and I I I enjoy that. Um, it might be subtle in the way it's done, but then, you know, I can walk away and go actually there are some things in this system that are different. And and what do you find on the flip side most challenging about the the role of the work? Not much.
(43:26) I It's a really good question. Uh, this might have to be cut. What do I find challenging? So I if I answer the question differently and maybe something I didn't say about the what I most value about it is autonomy. So actually what I value is autonomy. So I get to make the call about I think this is good work worth doing.
(43:50) Actually if you're asking me to do something that I really don't believe in, I just don't have to do it. Um and likewise if you're saying I have to you know rock up at 11 p.m. there's a freedom across life and work that so the degree of autonomy that it affords me um is really valuable to me and I guess what I have found challenging about it earlier in career and it's a bit different now at this age stage in the configuration that that I have set up but earlier in career I I think I found some of the internal politics challenging so I found it challenging when I could see what needed to happen in a system but I
(44:28) couldn't I just wasn't in a position to be able to make that happen. Uh, and I found that really tricky. Um, and I guess I've had situations where I probably wasn't the right person for a client or the client wasn't the right person for me. So, that there's something for me about when you're asked to do things that really don't make sense to you.
(44:47) I find that very challenging. And therefore, I've designed my professional life in a way that I'm not forced into those situations, which is probably why not that much. Sometimes as an external I find it challenging not to have as many touch points as I might have if I was internal.
(45:06) Sometimes I think oh if I was in the office I could get a lot done over co you know and as an external you don't have quite that um degree of access you have more weight when you do say something. So that those are those are tra set piecy isn't it when you go in it's like you're going in to to do a thing about a thing or you're going to have like a series of meetings.
(45:25) Um, one thing that Danny was talking about in the preme that we did with you, which is um, how the external person can say something that the internal people of people been saying for years and just because you announce it all of a sudden like that's a genius idea, we should do that.
(45:42) And you need to watch, you need to check yourself in that, right? You need to just remember that a role gives you certain things and um yeah just don't disappear up your own backside with your own self-importance on that. And I think there is a trick it probably comes back to some of what we were talking about at the beginning.
(46:01) I think there is a trick as an inter as an external about how do you not just do the set pieces. So, how do you create those really quick trusting relationships with key individuals where you can? So, I sometimes will go, you know what, I need to speak to that person and I'm going to need to be able to text them and go, can I I need five minutes with you.
(46:19) So, there's something about creating good enough relationships that you're not limited to the set piece because it's not all about the set piece. Um but as an external yes probably a lot of what you do is host the collective more visible um pieces because things move on don't they between those kind of set piece interactions you know the world doesn't stop um and individuals are always on their own journey as well as a team being on their journeys and I think it's something I've gotten better at as I've gotten older is spotting when do I just need to lean in and not just wait for the next set piece
(46:49) to come along. Sometimes you go, you know what, I need to make a phone call and step out of the set pieceness. And when you think about the field of OD at the moment, what is there anything particularly catching your eye that you're kind of interested in or kind of researching? I mean, I think me and everyone is curious about AI.
(47:06) There are some obvious ways where you go actually can, you know, can help, you know, analysis, those type of things. You know, is it a useful intern? Yes, there are things you can do. That's great. Um but beyond more broadly what are the impacts and the um you know consequences of that both in terms of you know I I think about a client I'm working with at the moment new CEO step you know promoted to CEO stepping in wanting to engage the leaders around him meaningfully getting some support from my colleague and I but two years from now does he go well I'll just get AI to
(47:41) ask them all what they think and then AI will tell me and and we can have a conversation based on that and do I need and the question isn't so much you will I have a job but it's so what's the consequence of that so I don't have any answers but you know I sit with those those questions and again I think as many people do not just in OD you know how if you take out all the learning roles how do people learn so a question I think around that and a probably a broader question as the world gets more and more polarized. What is our role in in that? And how easy is it for us to kind of stay in our
(48:22) little bits versus build connections and and connectivity? Yeah. Across organizations, functions, teams, sectors. I think that's something that's been really I've really enjoyed over the last three, four years. I remember speaking about this at the ODN Europe conference about 3 four years ago going and I see some great examples of this. I think you do you guys doing this podcast is a great example.
(48:46) I think Julian Chender does some there's something about the field needs growing and nurturing. It doesn't need people competing with each other in the field. So I I'm always delighted when I can contribute to growing the field and sort of trying to inject some of that is another and I see good examples of that from others which I think is heartening.
(49:04) A fairly big question. When you look back at your career so far, what are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned and that you you take forward? Biggest learnings? Um, be yourself cuz everyone else is taken is probably one of them. So, I'm not sure I have it in me to be a great internal person.
(49:22) That doesn't make me good, bad, or otherwise. It's just what's going to work well for you. And knowing those types of things, I think is is really um is really help. Liberating as well, isn't it? and liberating just going look I I I'm I can be a really good follower of people who I admire, respect and think highly of others can follow people who perhaps they you know they they kind of are more tolerant around that and I wish I could but I I can't I really wish I could because it's quite inconvenient at times to be capable but okay so you know live
(49:58) with that I think if you are interested in OD I do think there is do the theory work at some point. Don't do it too soon. But I do I do think actually the deep learning whether it's a master's or a doctorate or you know people will find their own paths to that.
(50:19) But investing in some deep learning um I think is an important part of that um that journey and surrounding yourselves with others you can learn with and from and continue to learn with and from I think is a is another really um really important one. Those those are probably some some big ones. Yeah. Hold yourself a bit lightly in it. Have some fun with it.
(50:38) The situation is hopeless but not serious as um that's what it would say. That is so true. The lightly bit is really important though, is it? Because it is often it's serious. It can be very serious work. It can be a lot of pressure. You know, you you're picking up on the system and that as well. So that that holding yourself lightly is really important, isn't it? And it does.
(50:59) I mean, it comes to that kind of famous Maya Angelou quote of, you know, people will forget everything, but they'll remember how you make them feel. If you're holding yourself very tight, that has an impact. If you can both be serious and light, I I think you probably serve your clients better. You create space for things to be voiced, spoken, heard. That is important.
(51:24) And you're very busy at the moment because obviously you're in the process of launching Amalo so giving life to this. But a question that we always ask is like how do you invest in your own learning and development? How what do you do to stay sharp? Yeah, I call Andrew. That's what I do.
(51:42) Andrew, what's going on here? No, it's a really good point. Um so there is a piece around learning reading that I for me it's the it's the peer supervision and I actually have um someone I work with three three weeks a month. So I have an hour three weeks a month with somebody for whatever is going on for me but it forces I'm very extroverted so I if someone said well journal every day the truth is I wouldn't uh I'd do it for a week or two and then I I get bored and it wouldn't it wouldn't give me the external reference I need. So I actually invest in um as I say 3 weeks out of
(52:19) four I have an hour with someone for whatever is going on for me but it helps me stop pause focus on where I need to focus. So that is built into my practice. I imagine that's important as well isn't it? Because you think about the velocity of the work that you do and sometimes we can it forces you to sort of take a step back and make sense of all the things that are happening right now doesn't it? And actually I think the other thing I would say is work in pairs or trios.
(52:47) I think it's very tricky to do good OD work on your own. I think that sort of critical friend other perspective. What are you seeing? What am I seeing? Maybe there are others who who can fabulously do this on their own and and more power to them.
(53:05) But I think I do better work and we do better work in pairs and trios than on our own. Yeah, I think we'd echo that. Well, we had a thing a couple of weeks ago. Um, Danny had CO unfortunately. So, I we got the result, but like as a as an individual doing it, like it was a lot of systemic change. There was a lot of forces going on. It's a huge amount, isn't it? So, having that second person to say, okay, and holding it together and one person looking at content, one person looking at process as well. And actually, I was speaking with a former client earlier this week, and we were
(53:34) sort of reflecting on some work that I'd done with her. And she said, you know, when you first showed up as a pair, I was a bit like, I need two of them. I mean, one's good, but two. And she said, actually, over time, I really valued having two of you. You you brought different things.
(53:50) Huge respect and admiration for each other. So, you know, there's something about you work as a pair when you have, you know, you're well, as I'm sure you guys are, you know, you know each other, you're you're not competing. you're able to call each other out, all that good stuff, but I I think it's hard to hold all the different levels on your own in in your head.
(54:09) And I think you learn and do better work in pairs and trios. And that might not always be that you're both there, but I I've certainly had instances where I've I've phoned a friend at a lunch break and, you know, kind of gone, what should I do this afternoon? But but it even that I I it's I'm not sure it's an individual sport really. It's an optional question for you.
(54:35) Is there a particular book or a podcast or resource that you'd recommend others read that's really kind of block always block always start with block. If all else fail you know the root of all evil is poor contracting. So in many ways if you were going to read one thing and only one thing I would probably start with Peter Block.
(54:54) So I often find myself flaws consulting. Close consulting. Yeah, absolutely. But you know millions of of other things as well but I probably the one that I recommend most often is probably maybe particularly for people who are newer to the field or coming into the field but that that's probably a place where I where I often start. Yeah, there are other things and the other piece I mean I you know recommend this podcast.
(55:20) The other one I sometimes recommend to people is Mang Chung Judges um just in time series. So picking there are some great depending on what people are thinking about this. I think that's a great resource. Um it's really obviously sad that she's no longer with us but a great legacy and that that's one that I often send people to.
(55:37) And so the last question one of the original missions of the podcast is to inspire the next generation of OD consultants coming through. So whether someone is internal trying to sort of find their way or someone who's just at the foothills been stationed in an outpost in Algeria, what is your advice for for that person who's coming through now? It probably echoes some of the kind of looking back and lessons. I think reach out and reach out for mentors.
(56:04) I think it is I I have had I mean it made me feel very old but I have had people say, "Oh, you look like an old person, you know, de would you mentor me?" And I was like, "Oh, I was that old." But sure. So I do think that you know it is generally a community where or at least I would like to think it is a community where people are willing to help support and I certainly have done that and continue to to do that. So there's a piece around you know find some supporters find some some people who you can learn from and
(56:32) with and who will do that and ask and my sense is many OD people would say yes because we tend to like learning. So there's something about asking. I think there is something about do the theory. Um if you think this is somewhere where you want to um spend a chunk of your professional life, I would invest the time in in the theory learning and and find good people to work with and from. I I think about this idea of where's a good place to work from.
(57:00) If you're the only person in a system trying to do OD fairly early in career, that's going to be quite challenging. you might need to go and find a community where you can grow and develop and then it might be easier to go back and be more isolated in a system.
(57:18) Um but but you need you do need a tribe I think so find a way to join the tribe. So whether that's you know the ODN Europe joining podcast reaching out but build those relationships in the community. Brilliant. Well Sophia I want to say a huge thank you. Thank you so much for joining us at such a an exciting time as you're just in the process of launching Amalo as well.
(57:36) We've really enjoyed the conversation, haven't we, Danny? Absolutely. It's been really, really good. Danny, what are you taking away from the conversation? I think it's hard to do it justice in a kind of few sound bites, but I think some of the things that struck with me, the bit you were talking about the uh the early stage, what when we're thinking about transformation, what did we used to believe, what do we believe now, a really kind of good set of questions for people to take with them. Um, I think some of the metaphors, I just think the idea of metaphors and being really careful about which ones we
(57:58) use and what they might be communicating is really, really valuable. And I love what you said about kind of making kind of making sense, making a really legitimate activity and finding ways to to hook it on to to other parts and how important that is.
(58:17) Um, obviously what's been brilliant is you've just really reminded people and engaged people in the process of contracting and the importance of it and be three-dimensional about it as well. I think that there's there's always something else going on too. And then the other thing as well is like, you know, it's a team sport and where possible do it with others. You may not have someone in the room with you, but have others that you can go to to make sense sort of to help you feel resourced as well because it is potentially, you know, it's really demanding work, isn't it, as well. So, so if you want to say a
(58:39) huge thank you, you're the first person who's joined us from Madrid. Uh, so that's a that's another thing on our our journey around the world. We want to say a huge thank you. It's been brilliant. If you are watching this, someone that you know that's probably either an internal person or someone who is in transformation or you're an external consultant trying to find your way and you think share it with them. We're always so impressed with the number of shares we get every single week. Danny, we're now in how many countries is it?
(59:04) 84, I think, at last count. 84 countries, which is great. So, um, we're just continue to be impressed by just the breadth of the audience and how people are just making sense of it. And obviously, it seems like OD is such an important element for that as well. Um, and if you have enjoyed it, then what we'd love to do is to hit the like button because the algorithm gods love it and it means that more people see the content. Uh, but most of all, um, Sophie want to say a huge thank you. It's been brilliant. Thank you for being so generous, so honest, um, so open and
(59:28) really just sharing some of your amazing practice and I know that people found so much value from it. So, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me and making this resource available to the community. I think it's a great initiative. So, on behalf of all of us, thank you very much. Heat. Heat.
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