How to Tackle Stubborn Business Problems with Phil Lewis - OrgDev Episode 79

How to Solve Complex Business Problems? Organisations are not machines – and they certainly don’t run on machine logic. Solving the toughest business problems isn’t about pulling levers or rewriting process charts. It’s about people: how they work together, how they make sense of their world, and how they feel.

But people don’t operate in neat, predictable ways. We delete, distort, and generalise the reality around us – which makes organisational life messy, complex, and often resistant to simple solutions.

In this episode of the OrgDev Podcast, we’re joined by Phil Lewis, a consultant, strategist and thinker based in Scotland, who specialises in helping organisations tackle their most stubborn challenges.

💼Phil Lewis
Phil's website to access his services and writing:
philhq.com

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live

We'd love to connect with you on Linked In:
linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
https://www.linkedin.com/in/garinrouch

Transcript

(00:00) Hi and welcome to the org dev podcast. Organizations are not machines and they don't run on machine logic. Understanding and solving critical issues in businesses depends on understanding people, how they work together and how they feel. But working with people isn't straightforward. As humans, we delete, distort, and generalize the reality around it.

(00:23) One man who's committed himself to solving stubborn business problems with business insight, strategic skill, and years of experience is Phil Lewis. So joining us from Scotland today, Phil helps organizations tackle the most difficult challenges from leaders who are struggling to lead board performance, strategic alignment, structural issues, and getting things done even when transformations start to falter.

(00:46) Phil runs a leading coaching and consulting firm called Phil Lewis Associates and a change consultancy called Corporate Punk. These two firms meet different needs, but they are powered by the same belief that what hinders businesses or teams are simply never business problems. Phil appeared on our radar for his thoughtprovoking writing and interactive events and his work has earned him the trust of leaders spanning all sectors industries including BBC, Google, Forbes, KPMG, Lyon and nationwide. Phil describes himself as having experienced bitter failures in his own enterprises along with sustained

(01:13) head spinning success. So thank you so much for joining us today Phil. We really appreciate it. [Music] Garren's given you a bit of an intro there, but just bring to life a bit more that the work you do. What what does it look like? Well, I think what it looks like is stuckness for the most part.

(01:41) So, you know, when to want to engage with either of my practices, I think a couple of things have to be true. So, the first thing is you have to be quite seriously stuck. So that could be on a change process or program that isn't working or it could be as a leader in terms of how you're showing up for your people or it could be as a board in terms of trying to agree strategy and get it done or whatever else.

(02:06) So and there's usually a sense in which the clients I work with have been trying to make progress for a long time. They might have had coaches in, they might have had trainers in, they might have had management consultants in and we can talk more about that particular discipline as this conversation goes on. um but but they haven't been able to make the progress that they've been looking for. So that's kind of condition number one.

(02:29) Condition number two I would say is that they need now to get the problem solved as a matter of urgency. So you there's a lot of things I think happen in business that are sort of someday problems rather than now problems. Um and in general if you if you are going to get me or um us from a corporate punk point of view in it's because you want something to change and emphatically I am not the coach and consultant to get in if you just want to sort of light grease down and to feel a little bit better.

(02:59) I think the kind of work that I'm interested in doing and specialize in doing really is the sort of deep work that leads to genuine transformation. So yeah, stuckness and a sense in which we can no longer remain stuck. It's now getting absolutely critical that we get this solved. And then I noticed when we were looking at your website, you position your work with that phrase kind of brave adventures in progress.

(03:18) Where did that come from and what what's that speaking to? Oh well, I mean those four words I think kind of Adam and Brake I don't know 25 years 27 years of a career really when leaders leadership teams come into particularly the Phil Lewis associates practice if they're feeling stuck and I mentioned earlier on they've probably been through traditional coaching consulting all the rest of it what I haven't mentioned is that they've also been through pretty much their toolbox at that point in time so so you know they're sitting there they got they got a problem that they believe they need to solve. And forgive me, I'm not a

(03:54) mechanic, but it's going to be something like this, you know, or the screwdriver that goes over the shoulder. You know, that's not work. The hammer, that's gone over the shoulder. The jump leads, they've gone over the shoulder. The jack, they've gone over the shoulder. Mechanics will now be thinking exactly what problem is it you're trying to solve? But but but the point is they've kind of got to the the cupboard's bare or the toolbox is empty, you know.

(04:17) And and my sense of this work, my work, but more more generally this kind of helping work, whether you call it coaching or consulting or whatever, is that fundamentally what it's there to do is to help the individual feel resourced in a way that they weren't previously feeling resourced.

(04:43) So if they're out of ideas before, um, they might get some new ones. If they were out of energy before, then actually they might find it in themselves to carry on moving forward in some way, shape or form. But the nature of doing that kind of discovery work in partnership with somebody like me, I think, is it can be quite challenging work because actually a lot of the time it's about there's something you're not looking at or there's a way that you're not looking at something that it actually might benefit you to embrace in some way, shape or form. Right? And sometimes it's about unc um sometimes

(05:17) it's about confronting uncomfortable truths within that as well. Right? And and I think that requires a degree of courage. I mean, you know, all day, every day, I see leaders who actually can be quite avoidant of situations that need addressing right up until the moment where they can no longer afford to be avoidant of them.

(05:42) But stepping into that unknown, stepping into that uncertainty with somebody else, I think, is is always a courageous act. And Brave Adventures in Progress acknowledges that. It also is something that resonates quite deeply with me because this sort of thing that and I say this sort of thing really as a way of that's literally how I feel about my own career I realize as I give voice to it you know I didn't set off with some grand plan you know 25 27 years ago I was interested in some stuff and I've got more interested in other stuff as time has gone on I've just tried to find a

(06:13) way of getting paid to do that over the years really and then you know you acquire your qualifications or whatever else, but I've taken some big old leaps in my career. You know, founding corporate punk was one of them. And I to this day try and because I'm so ruthlessly focused on doing what I do at the level at which I do it.

(06:38) I'm I feel like I'm constantly pushing myself to be better, try harder, brave adventures in progress in my own right. And actually in my own therapeutic work that I've done over the years, my own coaching work, the way that I try and work with others, you know, I've tried to embrace that spirit of courage too. So I guess it's it's partly not only sort of sat my side of the table professionally, but also sat my side of the table as a um a subject sometimes of coaching, consulting, therapy work, that kind of thing as well. And then just coming back to it, you said, you know, to do this work, the people you work with have to sometimes confront uncomfortable truths. Do they

(07:08) come ready knowing they're going to be doing that with you or is that something they kind of learn as they start the work? Bit of both. I feel I look I mean I I take a very relationally driven view of this work. I think it's in relationship with each other that we get ourselves into the messes we're in.

(07:26) But I also think it's in relationship with each other that we can sometimes find a way out of them. Right? But a relationship deepens over time. relationship should if it's any good kind of acquire its own you know momentum and I think trust builds also particularly in this kind of work as well where I think sometimes you do it in layers you know you start to get to know people and then you get to them a bit deeper and you get to them a bit deeper and you get to know them a bit deeper again and so and I think part of building that quality of relationship is

(07:57) you can then sort of expand the zone of what gets talked about what gets tackled, what gets experimented with, all that kind of thing. So I think yeah, they clients generally come ready to do the work, but I think the the the work itself changes and deepens as the relationship evolves. Obviously, we were preparing for the conversation with you.

(08:22) We looked at your sort of writing and you've got a really extensive portfolio of different bits of writing and we really recommend to explore your website which is available in the show notes as well. Um, and in the beginning you were sort of saying that all is not what it appears. So there's one particular article you write about where the strategy isn't clear and often it's a a kind of phrase that you do hear tossed around in organizations quite a lot and that your methodology is actually about uncovering.

(08:45) So the presenting problem may just be a symptom. What what like what are often some of the things that might be informing an issue like the strategy isn't clear. That's a great question. I will just tell you on the website by the way I've always said I never had chance to write a book. like I just don't have the time to write a book. There's work to do.

(09:02) Anyway, last year we decided we pulled together all my writing over the years and it turned out there's about three business books worth. So, I was like something like 200,000 words on that website or something. It's crazy over the years the amount of stuff. I can answer that question in a number of different ways, but I guess where I'm intended to go with it, Garren, is this, which is to say that, yeah, where I think I should go with it is this, which is to say that in general, my approach to the resolution of any issue with a client is to assume that that

(09:34) individual, that team, that organization has got everything in it already that it needs to be able to prosper. has enough talent, enough energy, enough good ideas, enough passion. And I genuinely think nobody gets out of bed in a morning to do a bad job. If you ever don't feel a sense of connection to other human beings, I always think my therapist told me this years ago and it literally changed my life.

(09:58) He said, you know, if you sit on the tube and feel disconnected from anybody, just remind yourself that the one thing you've all got in common is that you're all trying to have a nice day. And I think about that every time I get on the tube still. Right? And I'm still it's so simple, but it's so profound if you kind of meditate on it actually in in in the way you're supposed to meditate on that.

(10:17) Anyway, everybody gets out of bed in the morning to do a good job. Now, because you're a human being and because I'm a human being, what what that means is you are going to get in your own and get in each other's ways in terms of pursuing the outcomes that you've got out of bed this morning to pursue.

(10:34) That is called being human, right? we can talk more about conflict and all the other things that come with being human as we as we go on in this conversation. So fundamentally my start point is if we help you get out of your own in each other's way then we'll get this problem solved. Now that then precipitates a further question which is how are you getting in your own and how are you getting in each other's way right now we come to the strategy isn't clear so the strategy isn't clear for me like anything that's presenting in an organization fundamentally I see

(11:06) it as symptom not cause the cause is psychologically emotionally for the individual and the dynamics of the group there's something going on here which isn't being acknowledged andor addressed Right? And so the question becomes, well, is that actually a lack of clarity in strategy or is it something else? Now, the kind of things that the strategy isn't clear often seek to kind of cloud uh are things like I don't agree with the strategy, I don't understand the strategy, I'm really worried that the strategy is going to present some existential threat for me, my team, the people around me or

(11:42) whatever. By existential, it might not just be job loss. It might actually mean something like I'm also really worried that if we if we adopt this strategy, I won't know what to do and I'll lose status. Right? Some of this is conscious, some of this is unconscious. And so it goes and so it goes and so it goes.

(12:02) But because organizations are hierarchical, because saying things like I don't know, I don't like it, I don't understand it, I'm scared are not socially acceptable in the way that we run most organizations, that doesn't get voice given to it. What gets voice given to it is the strategy isn't clear right and then we get into the world of back to where I started which is well if we assume that this group of human beings is very busy getting its own in everybody else's way well actually that's to do with the lack of authenticity and congruency and communication that instance so actually what we really need to go in search of

(12:35) is is that question or is that sort of presenting issue the strategy isn't clear actually what's really going on and that's where your intuition starts to fire up and everything else. So sorry, a bit of a long answer to the question, but that's the I was trying to wrap in a broader story there about I guess the way of thinking that informs it, not just the kind of the the presenting issue as you asked in the question. Yeah.

(12:59) And and I you picked up on another question I wanted to ask because um one of the things you talk about as well is the the games people play and there's there's so much hidden behind the speech hacks that we see in organizations and you sort of invoke one example where uh I think the CEO walks into a board meeting and says right we're going to get rid of Bob and although they are words on the surface they're actually they're quite performative.

(13:22) They're trying to sort of it's like trying to create status in the team and again sort of taking a step back and looking well what's really at play here? What's the real conversation that's going on? You talk about the drama triangle suddenly invoked and how when we shift roles moving from like persecutor to victim to rescuer all those kind of things are what happens really start with the dynamics are as well.

(13:44) I just thought it was a really fascinating way that if we pay attention to the detail of what's actually said and the meaning behind it then we can really start to unlock the real conversation. And that's right. I mean, meaning is always provisional, right? So, so you know, we can talk about what are effectively sort of concepts drawn from psychotherapy like drama triangles and everything else, but actually they're just ideas really that are there to help us try and make sense of the world and open up lines of inquiry that again in conversation with each other can be useful things to go in pursuit

(14:10) of. The example that you gave, by the way, he didn't say, "We're going to fire Bob." The CEO in question said, "Hands up around this table. who thinks we should fire Bob, right? Which was one of those moments that sort of is seared on my sort of um metaphorical retina, you know, but exactly to your point, Gary, what's actually really going on there is nothing to do with whether or not Bob gets fired. What's really going on there is status signaling for the most part. um not only status in at the level of I

(14:44) ultimately I'm going to walk into this room late and command this conversation in this way but ultimately also signals something else which is everything that you have already been talking about as a group is irrelevant compared to what it is I want to discuss right and then it's also sending a really clear status signal in the sense that arbitrarily if I decide this about him then I can decide this about the rest of you as well and it also signals that there's no such thing as due process so the damage that is caused by that one interaction to the dynamics of a group of people is

(15:14) absolutely colossal. So, so in one sense actually it's um because it's such an edge case you know you look at it and you go who behaves like that and the answer is like one in every thousand leaders quite frankly in my experience most of it's a lot more subtle.

(15:38) So a lot of the time when we're working in organizations, whether we're inside organizations as leaders or whether we're partnering with organizations as coaches or consultants, what we need to be doing is paying really close attention to what's going on, which is exactly what you were talking about earlier on.

(15:56) Now, paying really close attention is, I think, it's a multifaceted skill this, and it's something that you develop, I think, over years and years and years of practice. And even those of us who profess to listen for a living still have massive room for improvement in how we do it. But ultimately, what are you listening to? You're listening to the words. You're listening to the tone of the words. You're listening sometimes to what does not get said.

(16:16) You're listening in a sort of more kind of um gestalt kind of sense. It's like what's going on in the field dynamically between this group of people. What's the kind of energy telling me? Um, you're also listening to historic context and how that might be showing up in the present.

(16:35) The extent that you know that, which is harder when you're new, but as you get to know a group of people, becomes a bit more obvious sometimes. You know, you're listening to the patterns of questions there. So, it goes and so it goes. And the more that you can take that data in and then sort of sit with it, it's this idea of free flowing attention, which you hear a lot of in certain coaching and schools of psychotherapy.

(16:57) your intuition, I think, sometimes can start to then guide you as to actually there's something going on here that really needs paying attention too. And my last comment on this is the skill that sits behind all of that isn't just about listening and everything else. It's also to do with the fact that the best I teach this sometimes to leaders, the best way of thinking about it that I've come across is to imagine the meeting that you're in or the environment that you're in is a stage, right? And everybody in it is everybody in the meeting or everybody in the

(17:21) environment is an actor. And what you're going to do is you're going to be in the play yourself, but at the same time, what you need to be doing is getting up on the balcony and kind of looking what's going on.

(17:33) So sometimes you'll hear like coaches and therapists referring to one foot in the room, one foot out of the room, which I kind of don't like quite as much because I think it implies there and not. Whereas I think actually what we seek to do sometimes is to say actually we need to be kind of on the stage and on the balcony at the same time and keeping that kind of higher level of awareness of what's going on dynamically as well as actually being in the moment and interacting and everything else.

(17:52) There's quite a skill to develop, isn't it? If you're a leader in an organization holding both those or being move between both those positions. Yes. Practice, practice, practice. I mean, it's um it's really really hard to do it well.

(18:11) It's also really hard to do it well at times that we get upset, right? So, so again, can't remember who said this, but years ago someone said any conversation that's worth having, everybody's upset before they come to the table. And I thought that was such a brilliant kind of thought. I was like I was like that is so true though, right? I mean, in my own life and my own work, there's certain conversations that I know I need to have and I'm already upset about about what's gone on or what hasn't gone on or whatever before I even start the conversation. So, it's all very easy. It's the it's the age-old

(18:37) Mike Tyson thing about everyone's got a strategy until they get punched in the face. You know, it's like it's all very easy to be sort of zen when you have no emotional investment in the conversation. But when there is something under discussion in which you the individual have a stake in some way, shape or form to be able to master that idea of actually being in the conversation and kind of out of it at the same time or on the stage and you know and at the same time on the balcony. It's incredibly difficult but that is why these things are a practice.

(19:08) There's one question I'd love to ask on the back of that because obviously you know you said you often called in after others had been in there they would have seen the same moves a few times themselves but not intervened in the same way when a moment like that happens when you're sort of saying well there there's there's something there is this is really powerful moment and it's like how do you select the way in which you intervene because there's in the moment as it's happening there's kind of reflecting there's kind of debriefing afterwards like how do you evaluate how to intervene after something like that

(19:36) happens I sort sort of wish I had a formulaic answer for you here. No, no, no. Lewis brain. No, what I mean by that is I I wish I in a sense I wish I I wish I knew. And I want to say, you know, yes, I will go into situations in which other coaches or consultants or um trainers have been present. In fairness to a lot of those individuals, a lot of the time they've come in and added their best value.

(20:02) And I think it's also fair to say, you know, organizations have to be and leaders have to be ready for my kind of work and there's different strokes for different folks. There's different kinds of people that help organizations at different times, but just so happens the kind of stuff I often end up with tends to be sort of quite chronic and then acute.

(20:23) Now, in terms of how how I think about it, I mean, I think the work is do you remember those choose your own adventure books you used to have as a kid? Maybe I'm showing my uh age here. You're aging us as well. Becoming increasingly advanced conscious of my advancing years. Basically, you know, you'd sit there and it was like page four, turn now.

(20:41) If you want to turn left, turn to page 12. Or if you want to turn right, turn to page nine. And and I that's the way I would see conversations evolving with clients. Now, for me, the kind of decisions that we're making in those kind of moments are really multifaceted.

(21:03) So from a practice point of view, I'm thinking about well actually is a coaching style approach, a mentoring style approach, a training style approach or a consulting style approach. And I can I won't get sidetracked onto those, but I can draw those distinctions as I see them if it's helpful in a second. It are you know which one of those or which combination of those is most likely to be of service in this situation in this moment.

(21:21) Secondly, you're also making choices about actually where do we push on, where do we, you know, hold back. And I think that can be to do with, you know, there are ethical considerations that come into that as well. You know, if you're dealing with serious serious relational difficulties between people or some very serious challenges that's going on for an individual, there are times, I would argue, where it's actually unethical to continue to push on um to continue to try and push people to make progress. Sometimes you actually need to to to back off to which point you're also making another choice which

(21:56) is intervene or not because sometimes actually the most helpful thing you can do is just continue to bear witness to sit back from and all of that and then also making sure that you're at the same time not drawn into things. You referenced this to drama triangle earlier on. I don't know if viewers and listeners will be aware of this but it's um quite a famous concept out of 1968.

(22:19) Kon came up with it and and it it's used a lot in divorcing families. It's the idea of you know that actually there's three almost like ego states that we can move between when caught in a certain type of drama whether it's familial drama or workplace drama which is perpetrator, victim and rescuer. And it's an incredibly powerful thing the drama triangle because it's basically about how we all move around it. The perpetuation of drama.

(22:45) The fact that in drama triangles nothing gets solved. And if you start spotting them at work, you'll start spotting them everywhere at work in my experience. But you also need to be mindful in those moments that you're not getting sucked into the role of rescuer as well, which can also happen or indeed perpetrator or victim, which I'm conscious once or twice I've actually caught myself almost moving in that direction or maybe even have moved in that direction. So there's a lot kind of in play and I think the

(23:13) value and the role of um conversations with other practitioners of supervision as a coach uh and as a consultant is ultimately then to be able to retrospectively analyze those choose your own adventure style choices that you've made in terms of what you're bringing to the relationship and understand actually not that they're the right choices because you'll never have the counterfactual but actually what was it that was guiding those choices for you and ultimately how do you feel about the consequences of those choices and all of that kind of stuff. So, so yeah, I think it's a very um it's a very

(23:52) challenging area and actually probably the central area alongside listening to the development of a high quality practice. I was going to say you mentioned ethics there as kind of that ethical choice you have you as a practitioner you've got to make is it ethical to intervene and I know from when we spoke in the premate you talked about having a highly ethical practice was was really important and central to the work you do you want to yeah say more about that well I mean I think I think I have five values in life integrity creativity um

(24:17) excellence um mutuality and grit and integrity is the number one thing for me now we can define integrity in lots of different ways but I would see integrity primarily in the context of the conversation that we're having actually about doing the right thing as far as the client's concerned. Now again there's no binaries in life or there's very few.

(24:38) of you know what is right and what is wrong itself can be uh subject to some very interesting discussions and is life always that you know always that binary and all of that sort of stuff but ultimately for example growing up as a consultant I saw a lot of projects that got sold that should never really have got sold I've seen a lot of people give advice that they weren't qualified to give I have seen a lot of interference in situations in which actually nobody really was either invited or had the right to interfere or the way that that interference was happening was wholly counterproductive to the flourishing of

(25:17) the other human beings involved and so on. And for me that's the kind of stuff that um that you know really needs exercising from a practice as quickly as possible. Now the job of exercising it really as far as I can see is that the thing about integrity is the work is never done because you know ne said we're all effectively all children because we're all confronted by unfamiliar things every single day.

(25:47) We are always consistently confronted with ethical dilemas and and actually challenges to our integrity. you know, when I when the chips are down in our practices and some client comes along with a big shiny bag of money and says, "Hey, take on this project that actually might be a bit of a stretch in terms of your skills and experience, but ultimately, you know, a combination of your sales expertise and their naivity means they're going to offer it to you.

(26:10) " Well, that's that itself is the kind of thing I think can really start to challenge the integrity of practitioners. So I think for all of us and I absolutely include myself in this, we have to become aware of our own weaknesses, our own blind spots, our own shadow effectively and start getting familiar with the parts of ourselves with which we are uncomfortable because it is those parts actually in the end that will get challenged around that that integrity point and that's the stuff that we need to I believe learn how to manage and for me that's an ongoing um an ongoing task but I would

(26:41) say anybody who isn't engaged in that kind of line of inquiry about themselves I question how how to put this politely. I question whether or not they would be resourced to do really genuinely high quality work with clients. And I think it's you said you said something there about doing the right thing for the client.

(26:59) And I think sometimes there's a question about who's who is the client? Is it the individual you're working for the the broader organization? I think that's always interesting angle to look at things through. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, again, it's a it's a really good point because again, like what we're working with people who are often quite individual sponsors of our kind of work as well and people take leaps and they show good faith and all of that.

(27:23) Particularly for those of us who are out there in the world of independent consultancy and then sometimes the incentives and the or just the trajectories of relationships start to pull clients apart from their organizations.

(27:42) you got to start asking questions about actually am I colluding with the client in the interests that isn't in a way that isn't in the interest of the organization all that sort of stuff and again you know I wish there were I wish there were were simple answers but but I guess for me the the the thing I try and think about is am I wrestling with the right quality of question the right quality of dilemma about how best to move this forward and actually a lot of the time I think these kind of issues can be resolved just by actually having a really open conversation sometimes in which those dilemas are acknowledged. I don't think we are here to play politics

(28:14) in that sense. I think we're here to help clients perhaps pull their thinking up a level sometimes and find new ways to navigate through. Hi, we're just pausing this interview for a moment. Have you ever finished an episode of the ordev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points? Us too, so we made one.

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(29:06) So, Phil, what was your journey into your current career? Like, how did what was your pathway through? Well, I I started in marketing and advertising back in 1823, which I sort of fell into and I I was I was sort of quite good at with being without being really good at it. But what I was good at doing was working really hard.

(29:29) So I I got sort of quite far in my career and then I went off and did and then I got tired of advertising marketing. So I thought all these people all very creative don't really understand the world of commerce and business results and all of that. So then I went off and was did some management consulting.

(29:46) Then I thought all these people really understand commerce and commerciality and business results but none of them would have an knew an idea if it would you know bit them on the ass. So and that's why I sort of moved between kind of creative the creative industries and consulting industries for a bit and then about sort of 12 13 14 years ago kind of realized that I wasn't interested in any of it at all. Right? I wasn't interested in in the slightest.

(30:06) I wasn't interested in solving people's problems for them. I was interested in why they had those problems in the first place. And for me I guess without giving you my kind of life history and all of that but it is kind of relevant. I realized it went right back to childhood. Like I come from a family of in really quite loving charismatic people none of whom can be in the same room as one another.

(30:28) So so actually I kind of got to this moment of realization about sort of 12 13 years ago. I was like actually that is the thing that really interests me. What interests me is why is it that groups of people as I was saying earlier on we we as human beings we're so so good at um getting in our own way getting in each in each other's way and why is it we build organizations that are so much less than the sum of their paths because I mean I'm I'm absolutely first and foremost like into the power and potential of the human being right and then that sort of slightly esoteric

(31:03) sort set of questions actually ultimately manag manifested itself in, you know, the corporate change practice and in the other practice. But I guess the secret of it all is this really, which is I couldn't care less about business. I'm not interested in business in any way, shape, or form. Find money very boring.

(31:28) I think people who talk about business and business growth are a bit weird. Um, I think when you hear things like I'm deeply passionate about GDPR legislation, I think to myself, what you know, so, so I, it turns out I'm not even interested in the basics of business whatsoever. Not interested in commerce or commerciality or any of it.

(31:47) What I'm interested in is the human being and the flourishing of the human being individually in groups. And it just so happens that work is a good place to do that kind of work because we spend so much of our time there. And also all of us as human beings without sounding too kind of adleran here all of us are hardwired to contribute that is fundamentally I believe what we're on the earth to do found a fascinating thing out last year which is you know how the retirement age was originally calculated this blew my mind you may know this but this blew my mind the retirement age is calculated by

(32:18) in the in the first instance the mean average age of the human male upon death minus one here. So, basically it was you finish work, you've got a year to put your affairs in order and then tatty buy, right? That was literally how retirement kind of came about. And what I took from that is, oh my god, this is it's as human beings, we have to have use.

(32:49) We have to have a means of contribution, right? And if you come back to what work is, work is a means of us expressing our desire and our will to contribute. And yes, we have to get paid because there's bills to pay and all the rest of it. and and and and work is this kind of amazing playground u and I use that word very advisedly where where actually so much of who we are how we are how we relate starts to kind of come forward and starts to give expression to itself both for better and for worse who wouldn't be interested in going into those environments and doing this kind of work so for me that's where it that's where it all kind of came from and I was

(33:17) just incredibly lucky because as I say in going in the direction of my interest and somehow through cellottope and string kind of working out how to build a practice around it, you know, and I'm doing it a long time now. And I'm sort of slightly amazed I'm still here, but but in doing that, what I actually stumbled across was literally a reason to live.

(33:36) And I mean that at a fundamental level like like like for me the someone was talking to me, my my coach, my I have a I do a lot of fitness and my trainer was talking to me this morning about work life balance and I'm like I don't believe in it. It's all life anyway.

(33:53) But also I just happen to have found the thing to do that I will literally be carried out of my last meeting in a box. I'm I'm absolutely determined of that. I love that. And you you've named your organiz one of your consultant firms uh corporate punk and that's a particular genre of late '7s early ' 80s kind of what what was the sort of the reason behind the name and and how does that relate to how you sort of show up in organizations? Kind of give you the answer, but I'll give you the real one. I came up with the name about 3 years before I came up with the business.

(34:19) So I was drunk at dinner um back in the days when I used to drink. I haven't drunk in years and and and and I was talking to somebody about I'm not very employable like fundamentally like I'm like the idea of the idea of you doing an appraisal is just not really going to like especially not now. Um, so, so, and but what I'd always been, I guess, and people when I'd worked for people in the past and I'd had salaried roles, it had always been somebody that you got in when you wanted to get stuff moving. And somebody said to me over

(34:49) dinner, "Oh, you're like a corporate punk." And I thought, "Oh, I love that. That's quite interesting." And then trademarked the name the next day. And then about three or four years later when I'd had a very, very bad experience running my very first independent consultancy, I lost a lot of money. had a really really bad time doing it.

(35:06) learned a lot of lessons and I was getting ready to go again and I was like what should I call this thing which is all about unlocking the natural energy of others or maybe we should call it the innovation bar or maybe we should and then I just remembered I had this business called corporate punk and then I was like oh yeah we just call it that and and and I have this sort of really strange relationship with it these days because I think I think you know you get you get a lot of people say it's very memorable name and all the rest of it

(35:34) but actually the thing that worries me about it is it sounds like I'm someone who's going to go over and go going to go in and kick over the bins, you know, and to be honest, nothing's further from the truth. It's like I'm going to go in and have a sit down with you in the mess rather than kick over the bins.

(35:54) Um, and and and actually I'm I'm so interested in the idea of doing no harm, you know, and actually what does it mean to, you know, ethics and all that sort of stuff. So, it's it's a it's an odd name and I'm not sure I' I'm not sure I'd choose it again if I if I had my time again. Having said that, I'm not about to walk away from it either.

(36:12) So, yeah, it's a it's a funny old story that What do you enjoy most about the work you do? What really brings you to seeing? Well, if you go back to my earlier point, which was the the tools at the toolkit, you know, all out over the shoulder and everything else. I I really really love watching people fly both individually and in groups and and that can mean different things, you know.

(36:36) So, there are people I I've helped sell their businesses. I've helped them to exit for huge amounts of money. I've helped them get promoted to global roles. All of that sort of stuff that I'm really pleased and proud to have done. But I think it's again that those are the sort of outward signifiers of success in a way.

(36:58) I'm more interested in when you see somebody who maybe comes to you depleted in some way, shape or form and actually as a result of the work they've done because let's be clear, they do the work right most of the time. to see them be able to find a way to move forward in a way which is constructive, additive for them hopefully in their life and career, additive for the people around them as well.

(37:24) And sometimes that's on an individual basis, sometimes it's on a group basis. And you see people surprise themselves, you know, you see people genuinely genuinely surprised about what they can actually achieve. And that for me is um is incredibly rewarding. The other thing as well is just because it's all about relationships like we're all in relationship with each other.

(37:46) I get to sit with people and I always find I can't work with a client unless I can find something about them to like right and thankfully most human beings have got something about them that's likable. So I get to sit with that and I just find that a joy to be honest. You know, I'm very quite, you wouldn't believe, you know, I'm sat on a podcast ning my head off, but I'm quite a shy, reserved individual if you met me outside of work and I can struggle to find ways to if you put me in a party, I'm terrible, terrible at parties. Can't do them. But to be to be able to sit there and have these very privileged connections with

(38:18) people is I just think it's a it's an absolute privileged way to make a living to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. And you touched on something really interesting there because um the the out whatever happens as a result of the work is very unpredictable but the sort of you can sort of understand the direction of travel but organizations often want to know what are the outcomes and outputs you're going to achieve.

(38:41) How do you work with that with organizations where you can't ne predict what what's going to happen as a result but you know it will be different. I think what we have to not see is as a process of change as being we start here we're definitely going to end up here. Everybody clear we're going to end up here as the crow flies. Let's get there as soon as possible. Think it's more akin to we start here.

(39:00) We think we're roughly going to end up over here. Let's make a step forward and see how we go. Right. Oh, we seem to have tripped over. Right. And we've got mud all over our ass. Right. Okay. Well, that's fine. Just pause. Clean that up. We lost Barry. We lost Barry. Let's get Barry. Barry. So, so Exactly.

(39:19) And so so and actually it's this process of contracting recontracting recontracting recontracting and actually again to the whole point about surprising yourself clients surprising themselves as well of course is that where you think you want to end up or where a client thinks they want to end up and where they actually sometimes need to end up and then therefore end up wanting to end up can be quite different as well.

(39:44) So I think this is about quality of relationship because in the end it's about does the relationship have enough trust in it for everybody involved to be able to go we'll just keep taking those single steps forward roughly in the direction that we think we're going. I remember about um two or three years ago in the corporate practice I was on the phone to a chief people officer who was a lead client of ours and um we just finished phase one of this really quite expensive project.

(40:07) we're about to start phase two of this really quite expensive project. And the CPO said to said to us on the phone, she goes, "Um, right, what are we doing next?" And and I rang Cla, my business partner, afterwards. I was like, "I I cannot believe I cannot believe she signed off all this money and she doesn't actually know what's in the scope, you know, and Clement stupid.

(40:27) She trusts us. She trusts us." And and back to integrity, we're not going to sit here and go right the the the right thing to do now is right there's another massive check you hadn't planned on. We'll continue to guide you to the best of our ability.

(40:45) And that's actually the sign of a when I'm not necessarily advising it's best practice, but that was the sign of a relationship that's built on the right quality of trust, you know. And on the flip side, what do you find most challenging about them? I think it can be very energetically draining I think to to genuinely be present with a group of people or an individual to bear witness to because you are bearing witness sometimes to some very very challenging stuff whether it's behaviors or whether it's kind of personal pain in whatever way shape or form or uh professional disillusionment or all of that and and I feel a real sense of responsibility to and perhaps sometimes

(41:17) too much responsibility quite honestly but but for what I'm bringing into the relationship as well from from my side. And so there can be a weight of doing this kind of work. And so for me, learning that I actually do have to take care of myself in order to be able to do this work has been really a very big theme of the last few years.

(41:44) But I mean I was with um a very it was it was a very very day but I was with 160 a group of 160 doing I think a six-hour workshop in the souththeast a couple of weeks ago and it goes by in a blink and I was I really enjoyed it and I kind of left with more energy than I'd started which is often how these things go right up until the moment I get in the cab and then suddenly you sort of it's like your internal battery level goes from 88 to like three and then I'm just I'm basically can't speak and so that and learning the kind of patterns of that and how to recover from that I can find that very difficult and also because nothing's certain to your point Garen as

(42:22) well you will go through times in this work where it doesn't look like you're getting results or it doesn't look like the client's getting results I should say it doesn't look like or that the results that are coming out aren't the results that anybody really wants there will be times when also when clients will project onto you stuff they've got going on for them there can be all sorts of behavior in which you can get sucked in. There's organizational dysfunction. The fact that they need you sometimes

(42:46) predicts the fact they're not going to be able to buy you in any kind of functional way. All of that kind of stuff. All of that can be very draining as well, I would say. Yeah. And if anyone was listening to this and they're just at the beginning of their consulting career or even rewind the last five minutes and play it back again numerous times because it really is it it is so demanding, isn't it? It doesn't in a way you kind of make it look easy on the surface but internally there's so much going on

(43:09) isn't there? Yeah. I mean I always say I think the first two years for an independent consultant will be the hardest. I do actually think the first two years are incredibly rough. I think it's true in coaching as well because there's so much about the business you've got to get to understand too.

(43:29) But this word practice is, I think, a really liberating word at the end of the day because the idea of a practice is I'm better at it now than I was this time last year and in a year's time I'll be better at it than I am today. And and I find that really a powerful thing to kind of think about.

(43:46) The other thing I just wanted to say is this, which is anybody who's setting up on their own, I mean, find some people to run with. I think it's really, really important. You know, I don't believe there to be any such thing as competition in our space. You know, I I genuinely don't. I think we all have something different and unique and interesting to bring. And what you two can bring in the engagements that you have will be different and in some cases better than what I can bring, better suited to that particular organization or that set of problems or that particular client culture or whatever it

(44:16) is. So, I think if you if you accept the fact there's no such thing as competition, then actually it kind of frees you in a way to go, I'm just going to try and find some smart people who know what this is like to spend some time with and talk to about all this stuff. Because the one thing I also know having done this for as long as I've done it now is that people who have never done it, by which I mean a running a small business, b running an independent coaching or consulting practice. And those are both important

(44:46) things. Even other small business owners don't, I think, understand this kind of stuff in the way that the three of us would, for example. If you haven't done it, you can't understand it. And so you need to find some people to talk to who at least when you're saying so this happened and this happened and this happened they may not always have the answers but they know what it is you're going through. And I think that is a very very important aspect to be able to stay the course in this kind of work. How do you invest in your own learning

(45:09) and development? What does that look like for you at this stage in your um journey? Constant actually. I mean I took myself through some psychotherapy qualifications a few years ago. I'm currently 2/3 3/4 of a way through a masters in exec coaching at the moment with Ashidge which has been utterly brilliant and and I would say has been worth doing actually also just through the lens of meeting some really great peers and again people who can push your own practice forward and all that kind of stuff. And then I think it's it's also conversations like this. I mean, you

(45:43) know, one of the things about our work is being able to talk about it. I think sometimes can really help sharpen our own thinking and our own practice. So, so I think for me it's it's the it's yes the the the professional development journey involves going through kind of cycles of qualifications, psychometrics, other kind of industry qualifications, but actually also being in conversation around this kind of stuff is useful.

(46:07) The other thing I would say actually sorry just to just to say there is the third bucket which I shouldn't forget is the work is the best teacher if you allow it to be. I mean ultimately getting out there and the contact sport of actually doing this stuff. I mean uh I look back at some of the stuff I was writing eight nine or 10 years ago. All of it's on the website by the way.

(46:25) I refuse to edit any of it out cuz I'm like I'm like again even if I god that's scan's a bit naive like but that's where you were 10 years ago own it you know and you don't get to edit out your past and so for me for me the kind of but the process of doing the work is the is there itself a great teacher too so those three things well Phil I want to say a huge thank you we're also very appreciative you've hired a room to have a conversation with us today so we thank you very much for that as well um it's really a really

(46:55) brilliant conversation. Um Danny, what are you taking away from today's call? Not a lot. I want to carry on. I've got so many questions asked. I guess we can we pay for the next hour? No, I can always I can always come back on. No problem. I think there's definitely a part two. I think we'd love to have you back on. Yeah, I think it's it's been a lovely conversation.

(47:12) I think there's lots of provocation of food for thought for anybody practicing practicing in this space. So I think some of the things that have stuck with me that kind of reiterating that belief that the organization of the people aren't broken that they've got everything they need to solve their own problems is really important.

(47:30) The kind of the idea of paying close attention to the conscious and the unconscious and the fact that that's a a real skill and a practice we need to just be alive to all the time. And then the importance of relationships in the work that we do would be the three things. I'm also left with a question which is just thinking back to the way you described your practice that kind of the people come to you with they're stuck or there's andor urgency.

(47:49) Is that a prerequisite to the work we do? Is that a necessary place for them to be before we can do the work or is there a way of not getting to that place? The answer is yes and no. In my view, there is it's not a prerequisite but actually also it can be how and when people buy that kind of effectively makes it a prerequisite. It's an interesting one to examine that Danny I think. Yeah. Right.

(48:12) Let's bring that into the part two conversation and and all of those and I guess the other thing is just the importance of looking after yourself. It's so easy to not and it's like you know you are the instrument for a lot of this work and the the change one step at a time rather than thinking it's the full course um as well and that the work is the best teacher. So there's just so many lessons to take away from this.

(48:29) Um Phil, if people want to follow your work, if they want to just dip into your brilliant writing, if they want to follow some of your live events which are excellent, what's the best way for people to reach out to you? uh philhq.com. So that is the the website. You can also track me down on the internet.

(48:46) Uh Phil Lewis, unfortunately, is also the name of a prominent basketball player and a hair metal guitarist, but I'm not too far away from the uh from the top search ranking. That's true. Not too far away from the top search ranking in Google. Um but yeah, LinkedIn and the website usually a good place to start. Well, thank you so much, Phil. We really appreciate it.

(49:04) Um Phil's interview joins the brilliant portfolio of amazing guests from around the world that we've interviewed. If you have enjoyed it, please hit the like button. And also what we love as well is if you think you know someone that would really benefit from Phil's insights, then please share it because so many people share the podcast every week and you'll know someone who would really benefit from Phil's insights as well. And we want to say huge thank you. It's been brilliant.

(49:21) I think we're just scratching the surface, but Phil, keep doing the brilliant work that you're doing. Keep finding time to write and share your insights. And thank you for today. It's been great. Good to be with you both. Heat. Heat. [Music]