Imposter Phenomenon with Dr Kate Atkin - OrgDev Episode 79

Have you ever worried you’ll be “found out” or dismissed your own successes as luck? You’re not alone. In this episode, we’re joined by Dr Kate Atkin, author of The Imposter Phenomenon: Why You Feel Like a Fraud and What to Do About It. 

Kate brings both personal experience and rigorous research to the conversation, busting myths (it’s phenomenon, not syndrome) and sharing practical strategies for navigating self-doubt. We explore how imposter feelings show up in organisations, why the right kind of feedback matters, and how psychological courage helps us update the story we tell ourselves.

It’s an honest and hopeful conversation that we're pretty sure will resonate with many leaders and practitioners

Join Kate's Book Launch for free: There are three options, London on 3rd September, Cambridge on 28th October and online on 6th November. The details and booking are available through Eventbrite using this link: https://www.eventbrite.com/cc/the-imp...  Please also feel free to share this with others if you wish.

Buy Kate's book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Imposter-Phe...

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live

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Transcript

(00:00) Hi and welcome to the Org Dev podcast. So, have you ever wondered if you'll be found out or felt terrified at making a mistake because it proves you're not perfect and therefore not up to the job? Have you ever looked around a room and wondered if you're the only person who doesn't really belong? If so, you're not alone. You're likely to be experiencing the imposter phenomenon.

(00:24) It's an extremely common for organization development and change practitioners to experience feelings associated with the imposter phenomenon. After all, much of our work involves navigating ambiguity, holding space for others, and working behind the scenes without seeing the direct impact. And in the pressure to be credible, strategic, and emotionally attuned, it's no surprise that self-doubt can creep in.

(00:40) In this episode, Danny and I have invited the brilliant Dr. Kate Atkin, speaker, facilitator, and author of the brand new book, The Imposter Phenomenon: Why You Feel Like a Fud and What to Do About It. Now, Danny's been busy reading that book, haven't you? that I have read and the bacon bookmarks is always a sign of a of a quality book.

(00:58) We really wanted to invite an expert who has dedicated herself to understanding the science behind and developing practical strategies and Kate's work cuts through the noise and busts the myths as well. Kate delivers keynotes, workshops, seminars and training on this important topic and she works with major corporates, universities, charities and the NHS. And Kate has been her own journey of tackling her own feelings of being imposter and succeeded.

(01:22) She first went to university later in life, skipping an undergraduate degree and achieving an MSE in applied positive psychology. But not satisfied with challenging herself at that stage, she then enrolled in a PhD to research into imposter phenomenon, coping strategies and psychological courage.

(01:39) She's the author of three books and this book has just come out literally in the last couple of weeks. So Dr. Kate, thank you so much for joining us. We're absolutely delighted that you can join us on a sunny Friday afternoon. Thank you so much for inviting me. [Music] We're really excited to have you with us, Kate. I really enjoyed reading your book.

(02:00) So, I think it's it's deeply practical and I think it's going to resonate with a lot of people and I think on a personal level, it also gave me kind of layers to understand kind of my own experience of imposter feelings. So, it's been it's been really interesting. So, just to kick us off, just tell us a little bit about the book.

(02:18) What inspired you to write it? So as Gary mentioned in his introduction there about my own personal experiences and going and doing a degree later in life and skipping the undergrad perspective. I didn't ever believe I was university material. So after my A levels I went and did something called an HND which stands for technically higher national diploma but somebody then told me it's called has no degree. So I didn't believe that I was academic or clever and throughout my life just toodled along but always constantly learning, always constantly wanting to do something.

(02:50) And I'll fast forward a number of years because I don't want to take too long on this bit. But but it was later in my 40s when I met my husband and after we'd been married for a couple of years, I suggested to him that I would like to learn something and he with his expertise on the old search engines would be able to find something new and interesting for me to learn.

(03:10) So off he went and came back with an answer of saying, I think you should do a masters in positive psychology which was a 2-year part-time program. I thought he was going to suggest a maximum two week, you know, residential course somewhere for personal development. So after I picked myself up off the floor and then I had a complete meltdown. It's like there's no way can't do it. Don't have a first degree.

(03:31) University won't want me, etc. So he helped me write the personal statement. I know you should write it yourself. I couldn't think of anything good enough to say. and he helped me write that personal statement and I attended the University of East London after delaying my entrance for 12 months because I didn't think I was good enough.

(03:49) So I had to then go and do a bit of my own research and reading around the topic of positive psychology before I even felt I could step into a university. And when I stepped in, oh my goodness, my first question that fellow students ask is, "What's your first degree in?" So it felt like a real confession that I don't have a first degree. And then they were really surprised that you could do a mast's without a first degree.

(04:11) And this sense of I shouldn't be here just bubbled up to almost overflowing point. And actually it wasn't that that triggered the research in the book. It was coming across Pauline Clans and Suzanne's work on the imposter phenomenon by chance in the first six months of being at university. Somehow a bright and shiny object or a rabbit hole I went down.

(04:35) I don't remember it, but I do remember reading the article going, "That is so me." And as I read that journal article, I was just ticking all of their boxes. And I thought, I'll have a look into this because when you experience something personally, you get driven to understand it a bit more. So, I was driven to understand it.

(04:53) And I used the impostor phenomenon for my MSE dissertation. And after I'd finished my masters, I wanted to continue to learn a bit more about it, but particularly all the writing that I'd come across was how people experience this intense and and for some people it really is a deep intense fear that you're going to get found out.

(05:16) For me, it manifested as major stomach aches over time from anxiety, although I hadn't got the name for it at that point. But if you've got this real intense fear and a real visceral feeling and high levels of stress, how do you carry on at work? How do you succeed? How, you know, how come these are successful people on the outside with this intense inner fear on the inside? How do you cope? And there was no research at that point on coping strategies. So yeah, I I bit the bullet in some ways stupidly, but actually I'm really pleased I did.

(05:47) I thought it would be a four-year part-time PhD program which I started in 2017 and yeah I I I attained the PhD in 2024 so I was really pleased with that but yeah that's six and a half years of of real significant work much much harder than I thought it was but in the course of understanding how people cope through interviewing 21 lovely participants who shared their time with me I also worked on myself and my own coping strategies and realized you know what this is really helpful for me. I wrote the PhD thesis and then there of course is the

(06:22) realization that not that many people want to read a PhD thesis. It can be a little heavy. So I thought the best thing to do would be to make it into a book and my real reason for doing it is that I want to to make a difference to other people. Fabulous.

(06:41) And can we just talk about definitions as well because often when we talk about imposter the phrase imposter syndrome gets used a lot but you very deliberately use the imposter phenomenon which is tricky to say but you know just say a little bit more about yeah just say a little bit about that differentiation of why it's so important.

(06:59) Yeah, it it is really important and Clans and Dimes used phenomenon in their research as well and and that's how they coined the phrase the imposter phenomenon because a phenomenon they say channeling the Muppet song it's like monomomen. If you can do that you can go phenomenon and it helps you remember how to say it. They use that deliberately because it's an occurrence at certain points in time. It's not in and of itself a pathological mental health condition although it can cause for some people high levels of stress and anxiety and there is a a link that one or two pieces of research have made with depression as well in itself

(07:29) impostor feelings are not a mental health condition. So that's where I'm really wanting to differentiate that phenomenon is the correct term. Syndrome is the sexy one that the media have picked up and said, do you know what? It's easier to say, it's easier to spell. People will click on it more if we use syndrome rather than phenomenon, but it's not an accurate term. Okay. Fabulous.

(07:54) And I think the other thing I took from your book, you talk about the language we use around it really matters as well. So that kind of are we suffering from it or are we experiencing it because that that matters as well, doesn't it? How we frame it. Yeah. And that gives you agency. If you're experiencing something, you feel like you can do something about it.

(08:11) If you're suffering from something, you're you're taking away any level of agency that you can necessarily do something about it. So I find that important. And it's interesting when I occasionally I I remember one conference that I spoke at and I had missed that definition out and somebody thankfully asked a question at the end about the difference and one person came up to me afterwards and said that for her was her biggest takeaway. You know sometimes just knowing it's a phenomenon. It's not a syndrome.

(08:38) You experience it. You don't suffer from it. Gives you that sense of it's not me and there's not a problem with me. Yeah. And there's something about normalizing it. I think reading your book I think you said 70% of the population experienced kind of imposter feelings at some point. Yeah. So that's that's a big proportion of the population.

(08:56) It is and it might have gone up because the 70% comes from a research done in 1985 uh where 70% of people at work are purported to experience these impositive feelings. And then there's more recent research that indicates 82% might be experiencing it. And that sort of muddled in from the frequent and intense the the deep imposter feelings I'm talking about.

(09:20) They also included some of the more moderate imposter feelings. So there is a scale that you can take when you do research that indicates how intense your imposter feelings are from light touch, no real big deal, to really deep and intense and actually it's debilitating for me from a a well-being perspective or a work perspective.

(09:39) And it might be that it's actually increased. There's a big question mark I think now at the moment and more research that could be done but probably not by me. Um that to find out how many people are experiencing it now as a a general across the board.

(09:59) Could we do a a large questionnaire to gather that sort of data because it's easier I think nowadays to compare yourself to others in a a very negative way through social media. And just one more definition question I think is important to kind of get out. You talk about the difference between imposter phenomenon, self-doubt and lack of confidence. So can you just articulate the kind of difference between those three things for us? Yes. Yeah.

(10:18) So it's often confused with self-doubt and it may well feel very like self-doubt because self-doubt is this sort of sense of I'm wondering whether or not I can do it. But the biggest difference there is with the imposter feelings, you've already got the track record of success. with normal healthy self-doubt and you're wondering whether or not you can do it. You haven't got the track record of success. You're maybe doing something for the first, second, or third time.

(10:42) That's okay. But when you've got 13 or 30 experiences under your belt and you've already got that track record, that's impostor style self-doubt. So although the inner thinking might be remarkably similar, it's the external evidence that is very different. The thing with confidence also and I find this is an interesting one because confidence grows when you step out of your comfort zone when you are doing something new.

(11:08) So that grows when you experience normal self-doubt and that's how to grow your confidence is going through stretching the comfort zones and experiencing normal self-doubt and then having a successful experience internalizing that experience and saying I know I can now do this specific thing.

(11:25) So confidence, the academic definition by Bura back in 77 would have been the perceived ability to succeed at a given task. So what I'm not referring to there is this umbrella of hey look at me, aren't I wonderful at everything? Cuz that's arrogance and that's not what it's about. But but the imposter feelings can occur.

(11:48) Even though you've got this sense of I know I can do it, you've still got this voice in the back of your head that's going, "Yeah, but what if this time it doesn't go right? Yeah, but what if this time they find you out? Yeah, but they don't know that you failed the 11 plus exam and went to the local secondary modern school and therefore aren't academic, which is my own personal experience, you know.

(12:05) So, you've got sometimes this background chatter that diminishes your sense of of self-confidence, which is the imposter chatter. So, Kate, you and I have known each other about 16 17 years now. And uh one question because I I was actually listening to Radio 5 Live in the car. They said on on now is Dr. Kate Atkins talk about I know on I know her.

(12:28) Um but you got asked a question and you've been asked this question on a lot of the different formats which is around the gender divide between imposter phenomenon for male and female and there's a few myths and differences in coping strategies aren't there because it possible just articulate what the research says about that. Well the research indicates that there really isn't a gendered divide.

(12:47) You know that's that's the simple answer in in that respect. what you'll hear from the media and you know sometimes other podcasters not you guys because you've done your research uh but but you will hear people saying oh it's a women's issue so the perception is that it's a women's issue the perception is women lack confidence and therefore need to overcome their imposter feelings as we've just discussed with Danny you know the confidence is a separate issue it can have some correlation with imposter feelings and there is some indication that as your confidence grows, so your imposter feelings might lessen, but also

(13:22) you can have the sense of my confidence is growing and then I become really successful and your imposter feelings get heightened. Um, but there's the the gendered perspective of do women experience it more than men? you can find research to back up that argument to about a 5248 um perspect which isn't really that big and significant.

(13:52) So I don't think we can say that it's a huge gendered issue in the number of people that experience it talking about of course in the binary here but also I think anecdotally there may be a difference between how people cope with it and men anecdotally have told me that if they feel sort of like a fraud and and wonder whether or not they're going to get found out they make this general assumption that it's going to apply to everybody else.

(14:17) Women anecdotally tell me that they think it's just them that feel like this. The other thing that again anecdotally men have told me is that they will push through those experiences more and there is some research that backs up that men are more likely to push through as a coping strategy but they're potentially leading towards burnout.

(14:39) There's also some social psychologies, psychologists rather, who have researched and looked at the the gendered divide in in coping strategies of um self-sabotaging behaviors. And again, potentially men will either not do something if they think they're likely to fail or they might do something that's called self-sabotaging behavior. So maybe staying up too late and then not being awake for a podcast perhaps.

(15:05) um or you know something that's that's going to make it if it doesn't go that well they can blame the other external thing. One of the things you talk about in the book is that there are and we'll walk on we'll move on to the sort of the healthy practical strategies in a second but there's a lot of coping mechanisms that people do do and I think one of the things that really stood out for me one of the stories you said is like just sometimes it's the sheer amount of preparation that some do I think you talked about maladaptive preparation and a brilliant phrase which is unblindsidable is that a thing that is a thing it was for that participant I tell you

(15:37) absolutely it was that for that participant now he was really interesting when when I can remember, you know, I listened to those voices, those 21 voices for so so long and had them playing whilst I was as picking black currants one summer actually sitting under the black current bush and just listening to the voices to get the the data in my head to be able to to write the thesis.

(16:00) But yeah, that particular phrase of unblindsidable, that person was telling me that he would prepare for a one-hour meeting. He would take a day to prepare. Now, that is not a good use of your time because if you've got several one-hour meetings in a week, then you haven't got enough days to do that amount of prep. And he said if he was asked a question that he hadn't prepped the answer to, he had prep not prepared enough.

(16:25) And and his words were, I've prepared to the nth degree minus one, and that is not good enough. And he said, I want to be literally unblindsidable. In other words, he doesn't want to be blindsided by any questions that he hasn't prepared for. So that's a real I mean it's a lovely example, but I would say it's probably an extreme example of the overpreparation people can go to.

(16:48) But what cropped up and as you said Garen about that maladaptive preparation because of course preparation for meetings or preparations for presentations or for podcasts, it's really important. You know, it's not about not preparing. It's about finding the line of where preparation is enough and you can do a good enough job because we don't have all the time in the world to do everything.

(17:17) And it reminds me of another another phrase if we can come back to this point about do your best in a moment because that phrase I think is also a really important one to to pick up on. But this point about adaptive and maladaptive preparation that the psychologists will use the term adaptive is a positive, maladaptive is the negative and overpreparing for things was definitely something that was a common thread with amongst the vast majority of my participants.

(17:40) Yeah, it's interesting because I I think sometimes something that Danny and I will see um uh often around the sort of the senior leadership team table and all that kind of stuff is the rather than the actual the meeting be a task and an activity it becomes a performance how can I perform in such a way as to project this image of whatever it is to you and so it loses the essence of what you're trying to do doesn't it altogether I think there's also this fear of being judged and being judged negatively so meetings are a space where you are with

(18:10) your colleagues, whether it be online or whether it be physically in the same space. And it comes back to Amy Edmonson's work on creating psychological safety. You know, if you know your colleagues aren't going to have that judgmental aspect to to you or towards others in meetings, all you've got to do is hear somebody quip something and make a side comment about how much they prepared or you've brought a lot of notes in or something like that or about how they how they look.

(18:40) Just a side comment can trigger the feelings of right, I've got to be on my metal here. I really must prepare and and be thoroughly prepared for something. So meetings do absolutely Garren you're right become that performance base and they were the main place that my participants said their impostor feelings were heightened and meetings generally and what was also so interesting there wasn't a divide between online meetings or face toface meetings some people loved online and not face toface and for some it was the other way around well maybe

(19:12) loved is too strong I don't know that anybody actually loved their meetings and so yeah so we've talked a bit about the consequences for the individuals suffering those you know experiencing those feelings that kind of anxiety and the stress and the kind of just the over over effort I guess to kind of keep up but there's also consequences aren't there for teams and organizations in terms of productivity and kind of making the most of the talent that we've got and I don't think we often think about it in a kind of organizational systemic

(19:39) kind of kind of impact no and and although that wasn't directly part of my research it was something that I wanted to highlight like in the book. So you'll have seen you know towards the end of the book there is this point about why does it matter in the workplace? Why does it matter to organizations and then what can managers potentially do about it? Because it's one of those things that well as individuals and you work for an organization then the organization is made up of the individuals. So if the individuals are stressed then there's going to be something within the culture

(20:13) that isn't meaning they're performing at their best. we're not at ease in what we're doing. And I think that aspect of being at ease can be really helpful to know that other people have got your back, to know that you won't be judged or at least not judged negatively. People will be there to support you and help you and provide the positive feedback.

(20:37) Also, yes, perhaps some of the developmental work could be done differently next time, but it's that sense of I I remember interviewing one of my participants and he said there'd been a change of manager and it changed the whole team culture because the new manager had got the team's back.

(20:54) You know, she was talking the team up rather than, you know, the previous manager being one that they didn't trust. And trust was one of those big issues. And I think with imposter feelings, there's something about not trusting people enough to tell them how you're feeling. And therefore, you can overwork behind the scenes. And I know some people will do their emails at night and they will do their research at night, but they won't send them until the next day because they don't want to be seen to be working at night. Yeah. I guess it's be really interesting now to unpack some of the strategies and

(21:25) and coping the healthy strategies that can pe people can adopt if they're experiencing this and I'm I'm pretty certain a lot of the people listening will will res this will resonate they'll be thinking okay what do we do about it then well if I come back to one of the points I mentioned earlier about this do your best piece because I think there's something about um the encouragement that we're given perhaps as youngsters that we adopt and I can remember going into exams and my dad saying you know never mind just do your best, you know,

(21:52) and and that's a good thing in some ways, but this just do your best when you get into the workplace. How do you know when your best is done? You could always do better. You could always tweak. You could always, you know, read more or do more.

(22:11) So, I think there's something about the do your best from a coping strategies point of view. I think we need to reframe it. And I think do your best within the time available would be a much better phrase. Coming back Garren to your point about the participant I had who was unblindsidable. He spent so long prepping for a meeting that's doing more than within the time available.

(22:31) You know he might be doing his best but it's certainly over taking the you know overplaying the effort and the too much time. So one of the coping strategies perhaps is to reframe do your best and do your best within the time available. One of the other major coping strategies that I think makes the biggest difference to people is coming back to the point about the self-doubt and imposter style self-doubt is that external evidence and what some some organizations sadly are not very good at doing is giving people specific positive feedback. Now you might be good at

(23:06) giving people positive feedback saying great job, thank you very much. Really appreciate what you did. You know, your efforts were fantastic. um you're awesome, you're amazing, wonderful, keep doing what you're doing, we love you dearly.

(23:22) You know, those sorts of feedbacks, but that's not actually useful feedback and can really heighten imposter feelings as well because now I've got somebody telling me how awesome I am at my job and I'm now fearful that I might drop a ball at some point as again phrase used by another of my participants. Really worried about what if I drop a ball? It will then prove that I'm not good enough to do my job because they all think I'm amazing.

(23:41) We all drop balls sometimes and it's that point about not telling people how good they are but telling them why they are good at what they do. So I think from a coping strategy there's two aspects to that. One is getting specific feedback or giving that specific feedback to others and we'll come on to strengths in a moment.

(24:07) The the other is learning to accept it on the inside because our imposttor feelings are so wanting to push it back because it doesn't meet with the perception we have of ourselves. So what can happen is we we end up with this somebody gives us this really lovely feedback and we go thank you for that because we know we should say thank you on the outside and then on the inside you're busy going ah yeah but you know they're just saying that they're just being kind d and we're not getting we're not really receiving that feedback at a heart level we we

(24:39) just hear it at the head level and in the book I do talk about a strategy to internalize the positive feedback which I've sort of twisted slightly from my my school of of of um improvisation training that I've been on over many many moons here here and there in an ad hoc field. But this point about going yes and to something to accept it.

(25:02) So in improv you talk about accepting an offer which is a yes and offer but it's it's this to internalize the feedback. Say thank you out loud but then yes and it in your head. So your yes and I learned X from that particular experience. Yes. And I can see that my skills in data analysis or whatever it might be are developing.

(25:29) So you're but it it's only you're only able to do that if you get specific feedback in the first place. So one of the things I also suggest that managers do is to and of course colleagues can do this too. You don't have to be managing anybody to give specific feedback but it is to be very specific in your feedback.

(25:46) And I like to encourage people to name a strength that they have seen. So if you use the word strength in the course of the feedback, my PhD thesis purports that the proposes posits was the actual name I posit this um but but yeah that was the name that was the word I used in the thesis but it it it suggests is what we would generally use non-academic term.

(26:10) It suggests that using the term strengths bypasses the imposttor filter because we've got this filter that doesn't let anything in that doesn't already meet with our own internal perceptions of ourselves. And what we're very bad I think as human beings, we're reluctant, let's say reluctant. We're reluctant to update the view of ourselves.

(26:32) So Danny, you and I before recording were having a little bit of a chat because you you know somebody from my school days and and it's this going back to that school days perception of of me and what I hold of myself. I can easily go back to Kate who was at school. Now that is quite a few years ago now.

(26:51) But that's not who I am now. And it's taken me quite a while to really accept and update the view that I hold of myself. tell you the way I managed to do it is to realize that if you hold on to an outdated view of yourself and everybody else is giving you a completely different view that you're going, "Ah, no, they're just saying that.

(27:15) " The holding on to the outdated view is actually more arrogant than updating the view of yourself to something more positive. And I think we fear that if we let in the good stuff, if we let in how positive people see us, we fear, and this is impostor style thinking, we fear that we're going to become arrogant.

(27:36) So we let it, we push it away to the side to maintain our humility, whereas in actual fact, you could potentially be doing the other thing. Hi, we're just pausing this interview for a moment. Have you ever finished an episode of the org dev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points? Us too, so we made one. It's called from pod to practice.

(27:54) And each week on our newsletter will share a two-page summary of the latest org dev episode. And it includes key takeaways, a reflection prompt, and one small action you can try. And it's all in a digital format with space at the end to add your own notes and reflections. And it's designed to help you take the learning from the podcast into your day-to-day work.

(28:13) So to get your copy, just sign up to our next step to better newsletter. The links in the show notes or you can visit our website at www.distinction.live to get the latest from pod to practice in your inbox and let us know what you think. We'd love to get your feedback. So that updating our self view, it's like an ongoing, you know, it's not a oneanddone.

(28:30) It's just something we have to do throughout our lives and our careers and just keep that kind of that intentional reviewing of where am I now? Who am I? What can I let go of? There is a lovely book which I I I again it's it's not one you read as such. It's it's full of cartoons. It's Charlie Makes the Boy, the mole, the fox, and the horse.

(28:49) And in there there's a cartoon where I think it's the boy is sitting on a tree branch with the mole and he's saying what is the biggest waste of time? And the mole replies comparing yourself to others. And one of the strategies that I put in my book is that the comparison really needs to be comparing ourselves to ourselves.

(29:07) you know, what do we know now that we didn't know this time last week, last month or last year? That way, Danny, as you suggest, it's more regular updating that would happen. Yeah. It's interesting because it sounds as if, you know, to really start to address the imposter phenomenon, it's a team sport in a way, isn't it? Because we do have a distorted view of ourselves, don't we? So, you know, we need to recruit those around us, those that we trust and respect and be vulnerable with them and say, look, you know, these are some of the things and then start to get that realistic view. And again, one of the things is that people don't necessarily aren't trained

(29:36) on giving good feedback and particularly good feedback as well in terms of like seeking it out, trying to identify it and also in a remote world as well, people see less of it anyway, don't they? So that it does take quite a sort of an integrated approach to help people address it and and you mentioned there about the team sport, Garin, and I think that's a really important point because it's not something you can really do on your own.

(30:00) I mean, we do because we're working on our own internally inside our heads, but it's so helpful if you have somebody that you can talk to about it. But what you don't want to do is talk to somebody who's going to tell you how awesome, how amazing they are, or who's going to try and fix you and say, "Well, look at all of this stuff that you've done. You know, that's fantastic.

(30:18) " That's actually not helpful to get the people that's going to be useful to you is to find those who are really going to listen. And there's some strategies again that I mention in the book and a few questions that I suggest people ask to think about what is it that's making you think the way you're thinking now.

(30:40) So it's really to get people to not just be met by talking to somebody else and saying well I hold this view of you and it contradicts your view so therefore I'm right and and that's a clash rather than a listening and I think we need to listen first. So it's why do you feel that way? Where do you think it comes from? And then I like a couple of questions in this order.

(30:58) The first one is what evidence do you have that supports that view that you hold of yourself? And then what evidence do you have that contradicts that view that you're holding of yourself? And then you're getting the individual to unpick for themselves what positive feedback they've had and to really realize that some of the occasional negative feedback that they may have had over years was actually a learning opportunity and it wasn't something that was that significant in the long run anyway. or yes, people make mistakes and you learn from them, you move on from them, and

(31:27) then they're finding the positive feedback. So, yeah, I I like that idea of it being a team sport, but when you are fearing judgment and you are feeling like a fraud or you worry that you're not good enough at work, to find a colleague that you can trust and say that to can be, you know, for some people in their work environments can be a no no. So, it's finding the right person that you can talk to.

(31:52) Is is this one of those conditions where we can blame our parents? Oh, I Yes. Yes and no. Um because I mean, bless him. My my dad, love him as I do and he's still alive. My dad very much is this hyperritical parent. You could always do something better. That's not helpful. Definitely not helpful. However, I have to say as an adult, we've also got to take responsibility for ourselves. So, yeah.

(32:17) Also, and even being hyper supportive can be a negative thing, can't it? Totally agree. That was that was again another very interesting conversation I had with a client when I was working in London pre-COVID days and and she came and and said to me that her experience had been a mom that had given her that absolute hypers supportive you know you could do anything you know you'll be brilliant whatever you choose to do you'll be fantastic and she failed her first driving test and it flawed her because she just didn't yeah coping learning to cope with failure and I've had a lovely

(32:47) conversation with another person in a business environment where she was part of the panel and she had never experienced imposter feelings and she was trying to remember why or think why. Um, and her big takeaway was to stop telling her staff how amazing they are.

(33:08) But she realized that her mom had brought her up to learn from failure and that failures weren't failings, they were learnings. And so for her that was her biggest takeaway. You said earlier about the importance of taking responsibility for the situation and and what we do about it. And you talk in the book about psychological courage. So that kind of idea of taking actions despite the imposter feeling.

(33:27) So not using them as a reason not to do something. Can you just explain a little bit more about that? Yes. And I'm glad you asked that one, Danny, because psychological courage is a concept that was new to me when I did my masters. Courage isn't, you know, courage is something that we all tend to know as a a a topic or a word.

(33:46) And we generally see courageous actions as maybe saving somebody from drowning or somebody speaking up about values being contravened and and speaking against the the norm. But the psychological courage when I found the research on that I thought was really interesting in that it's the courage to challenge your inner psyche. So, it's the courage to challenge the view of yourself.

(34:10) And the current research that's out there at the moment until mine came out last year was very much about the psychological courage to overcome addictions or rethink that view of yourself as as an addict to to not. Um, and it's they they say, you know, you become a non-smoker. You don't become an exsmoker.

(34:29) Um, and then there's the courage also to get out of perhaps negative relationships. That's where courage has been spoken about so far in the writings in academic circles. But I looked at the courage to update and accept the view of yourself to one more positive. So leaning on my view of positive psychology, taking the view of courage as being courageous enough to accept the positive feedback on the inside and then to update the view of yourself to one that is more positive because actually the external view can be more accurate than your own internal subjective view.

(35:04) And there's an element of not waiting for the feelings to pass. you're gonna sit there and these feelings will go away and then I'll go and do the thing or then I'll take the promotion or then I'll stand on stage. It's it's not that is it? It's kind of doing it anyway. Yes. Yeah.

(35:21) I mean that again goes back to another book that's been around for many years, Susan Jeffers, The Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. The title says it says it all. And and I've I've often pondered that with my work on confidence over the years as well because I've also worked on my own confidence from being shy at school and wanting to speak up but not quite knowing how to speak up.

(35:38) And I've dealt with my confidence issues by doing just that. You know, this this taking that first step. And then I thought, what really encourages you to take the first step out of that comfort zone? It's got to be courage. It's got to be courage that actually helps you step out and do something to speak up to um put yourself forward for promotion to do that presentation.

(36:03) You know, some of it is courage and then confidence grows from the experience going well and you can say yes, I can do it again. I think that's slightly different from overcoming imposter feelings because you overcome the imposter feelings by internalizing the success afterwards by changing that view that you have of yourself because the imposter feelings is the I'm not good enough.

(36:21) I don't do this. I'm not good at presentations. I'm not worthy of that promotion and it's changing that inner mindset which is where the psychological courage happens. Yeah. And it's so interesting I guess um a lot of the audience particularly like a lot of people are people that are creating change in organizations and they always say if you want to understand how a system works try and change it and and it pushes back in remarkable ways and one of the big sort of mantras about organization development is is being comfortable not knowing which is kind of sort of counterintuitive to a lot of where

(36:54) confidence comes from. Um what can you do in the micro? Is it or is it deeply personal? You know when when things start to unravel quite quickly and you will have had it like facilitating events where people say unexpected things or it doesn't go the way that you want it.

(37:10) What kind of coping strategies can you have in the moment that helps you feel grounded or feel resourced? Yeah, it's a good question and and thinking about this word of not knowing. And I was just the word that popped into my mind was being okay with uncertainty and accepting that you won't have all of the answers.

(37:30) And I think there's also something about being okay with saying I don't know or being okay with saying something if if the situation transpires and it doesn't go the way you think. It's oh that wasn't the outcome I was expecting. Tell me why you did that. get help me understand a bit more about your reaction to so you're you're garnering more information and I I certainly think about when when things in a a facilitation point don't go the way you think they will I think there's something coming back to this word courage of having that courage that sense of self to be able to stop press

(37:59) the pause button and understand what has happened because if you try and push through it anyway and I did once in my early years push through it anyway I can remember the feedback was well you dime with us. I go, I know why. Because I didn't take the time to stop and understand where they were at at the point that I felt the push back.

(38:18) And when you feel the push back, it's really uncomfortable to stop and go, okay, I sense in the room that something isn't working or I sense that, you know, the the change that we're trying to make here isn't landing with you. What is going on? What are the resistance points? You know, tell me more about what's happening.

(38:37) I think we need courage to do that too. That's not necessarily linking to the courage that we reframe it as from the imposter feelings inside our heads, but I do think there is an enormous amount of courage to stop and listen and understand what's happening.

(39:00) This is going to segue off slightly, but I was listening to a radio 4 program on chief executives that have been privately educated. I don't know if you've heard this particular program, but there's a series that's out at the moment and talking about when you go to boarding school, you have to immediately grow up.

(39:19) You have to immediately sort of say, "Right, okay, I'm coping or or you're potentially the one that gets bullied." And then those are the people that are groomed to take on that chief exec's role. and the lack of connection, the lack of personalization, the the distance that they maintain to maintain that perception of themselves is really strong.

(39:44) And I think it takes a lot of courage to be vulnerable actually to be vulnerable and to be open and to say, "I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know why you're reacting the way you're reacting. Help me understand more about X." As I was reading, I was struck there was the a part of the book was all about what managers can do to support their their team members um who might be experiencing imposter feelings. And I was struck by the the two things.

(40:08) There's one, what do you do to support your team if you or team member if you think they're experiencing imposter feelings, but there's also what can you do to limit those imposter feelings? And I think you touched on it earlier about the good enough piece and really articulating what is good enough on a particular piece working. Garen and I spend a lot of time talking about expectations and the importance of kind of setting clear expectations as a manager.

(40:33) So, and I'd not really thought about it in kind of an imposter kind of feeling sense that being really crystal clear on this is what I expect and this is what good looks like can really kind of limit imposter feelings. So, I think that was a really interesting takeaway for me. It's very helpful to to help others understand what's expected because otherwise they're likely to overwork.

(40:49) It's also really helpful to encourage them to send an early draft to you, you know, to let me, you know, let's have checkins, you know, it's it's not let me assess where where you're at. It's making them more casual to just update me with what you're at at this point. And I think if those check-ins become normal rather than critical as in criticism point, that's really helpful.

(41:13) I also think when people send work out, so let's say it's it's a report that you're writing, a proposal that you're putting forward or a presentation and you send it to somebody and they go through it with the metaphorical red pen. That is really unhelpful because what they're then doing is they're perfecting that report to their standards, not actually saying, "Okay, that's how I want it worded, but would would the way it was worded really be good enough at the moment?" And so coming back to your point on setting standards, if I want you to write a report, I need to tell you that I want the font in this. This is the font that

(41:45) I want you to use. This is the the type face. This is the um size of the font. This is the the outlines and I'm expecting it to have an introduction and a conclusion, you know, so give me that please. or if it's a presentation, this is the and sometimes we do have to adhere to much as I rail against the white backgrounds on my presentations, I much prefer a dark background and white writing.

(42:12) But if you have to adhere to a corporate style for presentations, then tell people. Don't then mess the presentation up afterwards by saying, "Well, you didn't do it right." that becomes it's received as a criticism if you've got imposter feelings rather than a critique. And I think we've gone into some some of the the primary schools more recently have adopted some work that's been done by Carol Dwek who wrote the book mindsets and did research about fixed and growth mindsets and and primary schools have adopted the what went well even better if mindset and I think it's a really great structure for

(42:48) giving feedback. what went well even better if i.e. how it could be improved except that primary schools have quite often adopted I must give what went well even better feedback all of the time and so we don't get what went well full stop feedback and I think we could do more of that in the workplace too and just do yes what went well even better if but also what went well full stop so there isn't that constant picking at something that really doesn't matter I've been hold on to this question about 20 minutes and I don't I I want to ask it but it's out of sequence but um is is there a correlation between imposter

(43:24) phenomenon and perfectionism? I can hear a lot of sort of perfectionistic terms in there as well because often the challenge for someone who's suffering from per perfectionism is what is enough and and persisting and enduring in attainment of unrealistic standards and there's a lot of suffering attached to that as well and I think that comes back to your point Garin about the preparation if I get my P's right.

(43:49) Uh so yes so so perfectionism, preparation and procrastination all have links to impostor feelings. So this desire to perfect something may mean that you procrastinate because it's then not good enough. So in the workplace what you're seeing is somebody missing deadlines and this desire to make it perfect before you let it go from your hands because if it's not perfect you yourself receive any slight criticism as a criticism of yourself and your own capabilities.

(44:17) One of the things that I've played with myself and now really encourage other people to play with is to send out early drafts is to tell others, you know, this is my thinking so far. What do you think? You know, this is where I'm at on this project or this is where I'm at on this report.

(44:37) You know, what else needs to be added? You're inviting the input and therefore you're not sending them your final result and getting criticized because it isn't good enough and where you thought it was. I guess what one of the things I'm picking up from what you're saying there is it's the power of to help others who might be experiencing it is the power of questions.

(44:57) So like for example, if I'm working with someone who's got perfectionism to help them understand the standards that they're holding themselves onto, you'll use things like the best friend technique. So you kind of like explain their situation to them but from a third person perspective and then get them to reflect if that's unrealistic. Do you find that sort of questions are quite a good way of getting people to actually think for themselves and challenge their own ways of thinking? I think they're important. They're really important. I don't think when we're looking to challenge our own way of thinking, telling somebody that they should think

(45:20) about themselves differently will work at all. Just saying it, it's not going to land. It's going to be like water off a duck's back. It's sort of, it feels so uncomfortable to rethink that view of yourself. It feels so uncomfortable to accept the positive feedback.

(45:39) It just doesn't I I you know, one of my participants says she'd rather crawl under the table than get positive feedback. And it's it's really hard now. Bless him. I I get and and I had a lovely LinkedIn testimonial yesterday from a from a client. Energy is one of the the comments that crops up consistently in the feedback that I get. So now I've definitely accepted that is one of my strengths.

(46:04) You know, to pre present with energy is one of my strengths. But it's taken some time to reflect on myself to really internalize that and know it. Whereas being told it doesn't necessarily change the internal view. So yeah, asking questions to help people understand themselves is a more powerful way than doing the telling.

(46:29) So you've um you finished your PhD and you've written the book. How do you how do you invest in your own learning and development? How do you keep what what does that look like for you currently? So my treat to myself, it was just after so I finished the PhD in June 24. Uh finished writing the the final manuscript of the book in January 2025.

(46:49) It's been published in July 25. And we moved house in March 2025. And my treat to myself after the house move was a a residential improvisation techniques course. And it was like you got to say a spa. No, no. Danny said, "How do you invest in yourself?" And that for me, I don't I don't really I'm not a sparry type person to be honest.

(47:17) Um, but I had four days of of improv with a group of people playing with improv. And that the thought there was a bit like practice what you preach. It's to learn to fail more often, to be okay with that, to understand that in in improv it's always opportunities and and going with the flow. So yeah, so that was that was my self-investment at that point.

(47:35) Going forward, who knows what else will take my fancy, but I I do quite like that aspect of still it's linked to personal development, but it's also a great deal of fun for someone who's an extrovert. My husband did say it would be his worst nightmare. One question, there's a couple of questions we would love to finish these uh conversations with, and this has been a brilliant conversation.

(47:52) So you you have actually given us a few references along the way, but can you recommend a resource or perhaps a book or podcast obviously on top of your own which is going to be available in the show notes as well or video that's inspired you or could benefit the listeners in the audience. Yes. So it's interesting you say on top on top of my own.

(48:10) So of course there there is and I'll bring this this one up which you got to pop into the the show notes. If I dive down for a second, there are a couple here. This one is a really good one. So, The Pursuit of Perfect by Talben Shahar. That's a really good book. Doesn't mention imposter feelings at all anywhere in it, but I think it's a really good book. And he was, I said, kind enough. He he gave me an endorsement for my book, so I I sent him a a copy to read.

(48:35) And so, that's not why I'm recommending his, but I do think it's a very good book. I'm just looking to see what else I've got down by my feet because by my feet, I have ones that I think are really useful books. Um I have also by my feet this one crops up quite a lot that I think is is really useful from an understanding about dynamics the five dysfunctions of a team. That's a helpful one by Patrick Lencion.

(49:00) And then finally, I'll do one more because this one's also by my feet and and this has been revised since this particular copy, but women don't ask and it it is more obviously with the title it gives you that um link to perhaps it's more gendered, but here it's sort of the high cost of avoiding negotiation and positive strategies for change is the subtitle of that particular book.

(49:22) So those would be resources. Um, and then last question for you and because you've shared so much, you know, you've shared the definition, you've shared uh what it looks like, how it manifests itself, and you give us some really practical strategies, but if you could leave our listeners or viewers with one takeaway about imposter feelings for them just to to really sit with, what would it be? That it's time to shine.

(49:47) It's time to accept how good you are at what you do to help your internal self match up with the external evidence and take that opportunity that if you let yourself shine as Marianne Williamson said and Nelson Mandela also quoted you are giving permission for others to shine too. What an amazing way to finish a really really important subject.

(50:11) And we do know, we know from the interviews that we give and the people we speak to regularly, both the in the organizations that we work with and the practitioners that we know that this is incredibly common. So the fact that you're doing this incredible work, adding some real depth and rigor to it, making sure that and bringing your own vulnerability to it as well.

(50:28) I think that's what's really really important to this because it really makes it very real for people as well. So, a huge thank you, Kate, for being so generous with your time today as well. Um, if people want to follow your work, obviously we've read the book. We've really enjoyed it. It's a great book. It's in three parts and it's very practical and very accessible.

(50:46) Like, what's the best way to follow you or to to buy the book and you also do public speaking as well on a range of subjects, don't you? So, the best place to find me is very simply using my name. So, it's katekin.com is my website. Contact me there. If you've got questions based on listening to this podcast, you want to email me.

(51:04) My email address is available through that or the contact form is available on my website and you know books are available through all the usual channels shall we say not to promote anyone over and above another but yeah you can you can buy the books through the usual channels thank you amazing and all of that will be in the show notes as well so please do look at that whether you're listening to this on all the different platforms or YouTube the links will be in the show notes as well um Danny what are you taking away from today's conversation it's been a really rich conversation I think so I think I I really valued the the definitions really defining what we're we're talking about and what we're not not talking about and the the

(51:33) difference between things like imposter feelings and self-doubt and uh self-confidence that felt really important. I love the yes and using that to update our self view the role of a manager in terms of setting expectations and the connection to kind of good enough and then um I've got some really good more more books for my reading list.

(51:53) So that's always a that's always a joy for me at the end of a podcast. Brilliant. Yeah, for me things I'm sort of taking away again echoing all of Danny's points as well in the moment the courage to stop and to not know with the others around you and be be okay with not knowing and going off script. You talked about uh the importance of positive feedback done well and consistently as well.

(52:12) And I think I'm going to call my parents after this and I'll come back to you. But Kate, I want to say a huge thank you. It's been brilliant. Um we've loved it. It's just a perfect way to enter into our brilliant portfolio of guests from around the world.

(52:33) Um, if you have enjoyed watching this and you think you know someone who either a might be experiencing imposter syndrome or support phenomenon, Gary. Oh my gosh, I did so well. I got I got to three minutes and I didn't do it. Oh, I did so well. Phenomenon. If you if you know someone who's managing people that might be experiencing the imposter phenomenon, then please do share this video.

(52:56) We get so many shares every week, Danny, don't we? So many brilliant shares of people seeing it going, I think I know that someone can help it. That's great. And also, if you get an opportunity to like it and subscribe to the channel because it pleases the algorithm gods. But most importantly, thank you so much, Kate. It's been brilliant. It's the perfect blend of theory and practice. It's it's been great.

(53:13) And and if you are watching this, please do recommend to read your book. It's excellent. So, thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much, both of you. Thank you. Heat. Heat. [Music]