Systemic Leadership - Seeing Patterns Not Just People | Dr Martin Miksits - OrgDev Episode 71

What does it mean to take a systemic approach to leadership and change? It means focusing not just on individuals, but on the patterns, relationships,  between people, teams and different parts of the organisation. It also explores how leaders and team members make sense of what’s happening around them. 

Who better to help us explore this powerful approach to understanding the social worlds of organisations than Dr Martin Miksits. Dr. Martin is a leading consultant and academic in this exciting and fascinating field!

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

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linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
https://www.linkedin.com/in/garinrouch

Transcript

(00:00) hi welcome to the org dev podcast So what does it mean to take a systemic approach to leadership and change It means often focusing not just on individuals but on the patterns relationships between people teams and different parts of the organization And it also explores how leaders and team members make sense of what's going on around them So who better to help us explore this powerful approach to understanding the social worlds of organizations than Dr Martin Bixit Dr Martin is the founder and managing
(00:28) director of side consultations in Vienna the consultation house in Vienna which is a private psychotherapy service and co-founder of the systemic development partnership with Dr Christine Oliver Martin works as a coach and consultant with leaders teams and organizations and he's taught systemic leadership in university private and public services And he's also a systemic therapist in private practice He has co-developed and co-led the MSSE in systemic leadership and organizational development And just a quick bit of self-disclosure So that was the masters that I did So Martin was
(00:59) both my course leader and my dissertation tutor So I owe him a great debt of all the learning that I had with him and all the support that I had with my dissertation as well His consulting experiences with public service and business organizations in facilitating organizational transitions and development and learning So Martin draws on 20 years of industry experience working mostly in international management positions He's been leading major strategic change initiatives in a global company across Latin America and the Caribbean and has led the management
(01:29) of merger and acquisition projects in Netherlands and in Belgium and culture change and process change in Austria and the UK as well Naturally Martin's extensive work experience is underpinned by professional qualifications He's got a professional doctorate in systemic practice and we had to double check this three M's degrees one in business administration systemic therapy and systemic leadership and organizational practice So thank you so much for making time for us to join us today Martin It's a real pleasure to have you
(02:03) It's lovely to have you with us Martin We're looking forward to this conversation So just to kick us off could you just tell us a bit more about the work that you do Gary has already said quite a lot I mean what I'm doing currently is I work as a as a coach and as a consultant I'm working as a trainer for systemic therapy be doing courses to me together with my colleague Christine Oliver I'm also doing some training for psychotherapists who are qualifying Then um I'm also working as a therapist myself seeing individuals couples families So uh I'm doing all of that So
(02:35) it it sounds maybe a bit broad in terms of all the things I'm doing but there's a threat going through it and that's systemic practice and in that sense everything is connected in that world Yeah that's brilliant And and then when you talk about systemic practice just for some of the audience you might not be familiar with that how would you explain that how would you describe that Very good question Very good question Um well you're coming from the world of OD you know and probably most of the people
(02:59) listening here are sort of familiar with with these concepts So very often in OD you refer back to a systems approach where you sort of look at how things are connected Um and if you change something in one area how that impacts other areas and you try to keep the hold in mind And when you move from system thinking to systemic thinking then um basically you don't conceive the system as something that is objectively out there but you see it as that everyone all the people in the systems they all observers They have their own ideas about what's going on For each of them the system is an
(03:32) environment They have ideas of what it means how it relates to them as a person as a practitioner as a professional in relation to their role So they have their stories and they have their perceptions from their place in the system So what then plays out is that these people together engage in patterns of how they do things in relation to their own ideas So it becomes then less important what the system kind of really really is but it becomes important what everyone thinks is going on And u that is the move from systems to systemic practice So you try to engage with people from that point of view And how
(04:05) does that shape what you do in practice and how you work with teams and leaders and organizations in practice then Yeah another very good question It shape it shapes me in the sense that when I'm it starts when you're engaging in in any sort of work So when you think about the system as a thing you try to basically establish what's the facts you what are the problems You might do an analysis from that point of view of creating a truth That would be more a medical model When you're working from a systemic perspective and I'm not saying that a
(04:36) lot of other OD streams are doing that you're engaging with an inquiry where you try to understand how everyone makes sense of it What's their stories And the the focus of that inquiry is not so much to identify the truth about something but to get people to think about what is happening in the system how am I part of it and what's the influence I'm having in it So it invites a reflexive way of thinking rather than sort of a discovery and less a competition about what is and what isn't but more an engagement with
(05:10) what's my thinking as opposed to Danny's orgarian thinking So is it a form of dialogical consulting Is that kind of how you That's right That's right So when you put it between diagnostic and dialogical practice it's on the dialogical thing So yeah that's right It's it is a dialogical form of practice But within the di dialogical you can hold the diagnostic So when people have a diagnosis a finance manager speaks about the budget and so on It doesn't mean we can't talk about that When we do dialogical work we
(05:44) can have a validation of the concept someone is bringing their way of seeing the world Seeing that as super useful other people might see that as super useful It can be fully integrated but the overall approach you're right Danny would be more dialogical So Martin um there's there's so many questions The one burning question I just had as you were describing that is what are the similarities or differences between working with organizations and working with families Yeah I guess um there there are a lot of similarities You're looking at patterns you're looking at reflexivity you're looking at um agency
(06:18) so that people have a sense that they have resources and they're willing and they can contribute to change things So these are similarities in the power dynamics in organizations are usually very different from families It's not easy You can change an organization as a person You can leave it for example switch it you can't switch your family and then the highest context in organizations very often is at least officially the purpose of the organization So it's easier to agree on you know what are we here for in a family it might be that 14year-old has a
(06:51) very different idea why he would have to join family therapy as opposed to his parents So that makes it a bit more complex in various ways Yeah But then organizations are much bigger and the power might be distributed in all sort of ways um and uh a lot of other complexities come there So there's an overlap but there's also a lot of differences and so this is an optional question but a lot of organizations talk about their teams being like a family Is that a is that a from your perspective is that a is that a healthy thing to do in organizations or do you think it's well this is now when when we work
(07:26) systemically then I try not to put my ideas as as sort of a limitation or a frame onto someone else So if a team has that metaphor and they think it's useful for them that's fine You know why shouldn't they Personally I think it's a bit problematic and it can be problematic because the um the obligations people have in a team are sometimes very different from in a family In a team at some point you might say well this is not working We cannot work with team member X Probably in a family you can't So you have to think about differently And on the other hand
(08:04) if you are a member of a family you have the expectation at the end people will always be there for you hold you because you're part of it And that's the highest context But in a team the team is not the highest context It's the purpose of the organization And uh at some at some point in time people have to go and have to leave and in the family they couldn't So I think the metaphor is prone to frustrations of people who live by it And you talk about the idea of context here and that's that's so important isn't it in terms of understanding organizations and and things about being the highest context So you talk about in
(08:40) that instance the the purpose of the organization is the highest cont But there are multiple contexts that we have at any one moment aren't there Again there will be lay people joining the call today So what role does context play and and how can you start to have an appreciation of the different contexts at play This is another very important systemic concept and probably other approaches have similar concepts So a context is but one can first think about it It's sort of an environment It's sort of an environment to to that
(09:09) sets what is the meaning of something Now for example here we have the context of an interview So that sets an environment with you as interviewers and I'm as an interviewe So that creates particular obligations on me and on you how we acting here Um now in an organization a team has a purpose and that's a context Why do we have that team Why do we meet People have roles and as being the finance manager production manager the marketing manager they have from their role particular accountabilities So each of these
(09:40) context creates a sense of a moral field how you should act what is appropriate to do or not to do And you could think about these contexts as a cloud of contexts But you can order them and say well what is now very important here Yeah what trumps what context trumps the other context So for example you might have a double relationship with someone So it might be a friend and a colleague but a particular moment in time you talk with this person and what matters is um the relationship as a colleague because you want something agreed and a piece of work done um it might shift at some
(10:17) point So it's important to be clear what is the context and I've said at first you can think about it as an environment but what I said initially is it's not so much important what is out there but what people thinking is so it's important you know I think this is an interview you think that's an interview we're kind of aligned in teams which you work with you might find that people are like on different ships one part of the team thinks this is about um I don't know might be a power play here and who has the A and others want to find a
(10:49) direction for the team and someone else wants just to check check off a particular checklist um and uh and they're on different working with different contexts and then things go wrong So I don't know if that helps explaining it really but it's a beginning Yeah No it really does and I think like when I think about the masters that it was such a huge learning for me throughout the process and the fact that even in the moment context can shift So you know before this we're having a really nice conversation and we basically press hit the record button and then it can't help even though we've had a nice chat and we're going to
(11:19) continue It changes things doesn't it Um and I think sometimes you know one of those contexts is the highest context is is the relationship that you're having with someone and sometimes even the highest context is yourself and your own needs as well But that can shift quite quickly I guess the challenge of the practitioner is to get people to share and understand the different contexts that are going on around them Yeah it is it is very useful to have to have a language for this and to talk with people about you know what is what you know what matters here what's the highest context here to to to frame a a
(11:48) meeting for example or a piece of work in a way that the contexts are clear and coherently presented and I think a lot of leadership work is actually about designing contexts that are meaningful with others and with when I say designing I mean also designing with having conversations that clear what what are we going to do here Why Why is this important What will make a difference What have we learned so far about this sort of activity And so on And then try to have a narrative a story you can act into which is sort of
(12:18) sufficiently well coordinated between people Then you have a quite a good chance of succeeding with with a team on that piece of work And and you talk there about developing leaders and often the traditional model in organizations is to send manager X away on a leadership program develop capabilities for them So it could be strategic thinking or giving feedback and then they come back to the team and then try and deploy those skills What is it about like how would you approach leadership because for example you've developed your own leading from within as a program How does that differ to traditional leadership development Yeah
(12:53) I've I've I've piloted leading from within Um that's one of the my my sort of it's a baby project at this moment in time Maybe I I step I take a step back We're running a lot of systemic training uh programs and in the systemic training we are conveying systemic theory and practice we are enacting it in the training and uh we do live consultations at the peer level or between say tutors and participants to bring the theory to life So I think that's a quite an enriching learning journey But it requires that people who do that
(13:29) basically also have an interest in the theory and they want to so understand have a bottom-up understanding of not only what they could do but also why they would do it and how that relates to theoretical sources and not everyone has the time or the interest to go that journey I was playing early this year with a with an approach of called leading from within where I'm I'm inviting people to reflect on their leadership situation and how people are positioned and the context informing it without giving them lots of theory minimizing the theory almost to nil but
(14:00) maximizing the experience based on what they're having So that's a bit of an experiment to reach more people Um and I'm still sort of in a bit of in a post-piloting phase and it it might be something that comes out uh 2026 or so I will do some some more tests with that But it's it's basically just sort of how can you reach more people who need to invest less time to develop their leadership and it's it's just a different offer Um and uh I'm I'm looking forward to see how that how that lands because I appreciate that talking about context and uh different forms of
(14:33) reflexivity and so on may may put some people off and and it's not everyone who wants to invest so much into a particular concept of theory to develop leadership It's a pragmatic approach So you talk there about meeting leaders where they are You know a lot of the leaders we work with and I'm sure you find the same thing They're busy They're kind of there's a lot going on Their worlds are really complex So how do you kind of begin to introduce them to a kind of systemic approach without kind of overwhelming them and helping them just focus on their day-to-day challenges Yeah I mean basically I'm
(15:03) meeting leaders either individually then they come through like a coaching situation and um then sort of I spare them the systemic approach to a large extent So I immediately start to work with them But it might be that in the process of um at some point I'm saying um you know what we're talking now here there's a helpful concept here um here are the domains of systemic practice or there's a helpful concept here let's think about the pattern between you and person XY Z in that team so so to have a frame or a picture in your mind that helps you structure information in a different way that invites systemic
(15:41) thinking without sort of coming with loads of theory when we're working with teams Then we also usually work away from a commission and start with you know how can we help you structure conversations that facilitate a different way of working with that dilemma that perhaps change your pattern how you're currently doing it that perhaps is an enactment of a different way of working that you then as a team can take forward um and and hopefully also finds a very specific solution to the problem that you were asking hard for So we try to be quite coherent with sort of all the things that uh that
(16:17) needs to be addressing and in that process it it's quite useful then to have elements of teaching where you say well and what we have done here follows a particular process it looks like this you can use that process also for other problems and have some reflections on that you know from what we told you and what what we've did what we've done do you see ideas how you could translate that and into your day-to-day and then people will say usually yeah I can see how I can adapt that and make it useful in my context and that is making it much more sustainable So so that is how we
(16:49) would usually do it on larger courses Then we we we also share papers and we ask people to read through them discuss them do some peer work with them and do some deeper reflections on like their life experience or particular project they're working with and relating that to theory to go one level deeper than that and uh shape their own style of how they want to be become a systemic leader or systemic consultant But that's not the um that that's sort of more the elaborate route Yeah For people who actually want to use that to become OD
(17:21) practitioners for example Hi we're just pausing this interview for a moment Have you ever finished an episode of the org dev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points Us two so we made one It's called From Pod to Practice And each week on our newsletter we'll share a two-page summary of the latest org dev episode and it includes key takeaways a reflection prompt and one small action you can try And it's all in a digital format with space at the end to add your own notes and reflections And it's designed to help you take the learning from the podcast into your day-to-day
(17:53) work So to get your copy just sign up to our next step to better newsletter The links in the show notes or you can visit our website at www.distinction.live to get the latest from pod to practice in your inbox and let us know what you think We'd love to get your feedback And and what was your journey into being a systemic practitioner I was always interested in systemic uh and systems theory So I had a basic interest and in year 2003 I stepped into the training um in 2004 and so I started one master in
(18:22) 2003 and the other in 2004 and later did a doctorate Before that um I was always interested in creating stuff I was interested in strategy Um I was doing a lot of um change related work I also had other roles like sales roles but a lot of my activities was always in business development merchant acquisitions strategy work um and um I haven't really thought about organization development in that sense but you always have to think about the whole that you need to create and um how you position people and you try your chances you make mistakes you learn and at some point
(18:59) I've said okay um this systemic uh training that at the time was possible to do in London that seems to be a good interesting add-on So I I committed to a a first phase of the training and then I've got hooked on it and uh ever since sort of I've developed ways of working systemically in organizational context Yeah So that's that's how I've got there It was always something I've loved to do basically create create things and and help people And you spent a big chunk of your career at Shell in various roles and across geographies How's that shaped
(19:31) how you work now and how you practice I don't think that that it is so important It was Shell as a multinational but I think working for a multinational company has shaped it as such because it gave me a number of opportunities It gave me the opportunity to live in different cultures and see what's working in this and that culture And as we talked about context you know when you it's a bit like when you have a career and you're working different organizations or even when you're consultant you're working with in larger project with different organizations you experience interesting differences and
(20:01) by experiencing the difference you notice what can matter here which you don't notice when you're just in one environment So um so um I think working in different countries with different um organizational cultures was very useful I I guess that's one And the second one is you have you have opportunities when you when you show up and you say I'm interested in change I'm interested in strategy work and interested in M&A work And you say yes a number of times to things that come your way and no to other things that perhaps are I don't know more operational then um you can
(20:38) gain just a lot of experience and that helps with with sort of the confidence you develop in approaching new situations So so that was very helpful for its time Let's put it this way Brilliant And what do you enjoy most about the work that you do What really sparks kind of interest and excitement for you What I like most is um that I can help people I I guess I've left a large organization have left child because I wasn't interested so much in helping an organization Um I'm interested in helping people I'm very happy to work with organizations but in
(21:10) the end I have a relationship with some people in the organization and I can help them with something and I find that satisfying and I joined that The second thing I I like is learning I learn a lot in this role Every week is different I'm seeing different managers I'm seeing different teams I'm seeing different individuals in therapy um and um and that's exciting and I learn from them and with them and find and can find solutions for them So I find that um I find that super um motivating and the third thing is I have opportunity to create things Um so um new workshops new
(21:47) product offers new kind of seminars Chris and I we run a seminar series systemic organizational practice seminars and we run this with people who are quite experienced every year and we change the topic every year and redesign all the seminars So we we we actually have to go and research a particular field and topic and you know getting paid for that It it's just exciting to keep learning during your career you actually uh you did your doctorate and that was about learning and innovation I know it's a few years back now but like
(22:19) what's what surprised you when you from your findings what was it that sort of stood out for you The focus of my doctor was imagining at that time imagining organizational practice I've expanded it a bit since then I guess what surprised me was that there are particular ways of how we in patterns in in conversations in our thinking engage with imagining So I've sort of developed particular insight into patterns and it was surprising to me how much work and I know people are different Certainly I'm always someone who is in the more in the future than in the present I must say some people are more like thinking on
(22:56) the past but it surprised me really how important it is in everything we do not just in organizations is sort of forwardlooking and imagining uh what we want to create and and that was that was interesting to find ways in how we can engage with that how we can also see limitations in conversational processes where you know it's not possible to go into the future and bring your resources into a frame and find new possibilities because of contexts that are limiting to that So these for me were interesting
(23:29) resources and and and and findings and it it also links back to processes of commissioning So when you as a consultant you're getting engaged with say developing a leadership course and that would be a task and you're presented with very implicitly with you know this is what leadership means in our organization This is what we want to achieve This is important to us And if you take that image if you will of leadership and start to work into that frame you're already taking up a particular frame of thinking about leadership that perhaps may include some
(24:03) people and exclude other people is limiting in the way how leadership is conceived And it's it's already a frame this task is already framed around what can and what cannot be done in that commission And by seeing these frames as relevant context for what can be imagined and created and being reflexive about that being critical also about them can be super useful for your clients and for yourself in your practice So these sort of ideas um surprised me I think they came they came out stronger and it was sort of I think
(24:37) they're useful for me in my practice and and I think they're also useful for other people It's it's so fascinating isn't it Because there so many people in organizational life run on autopilot That's just the thing that we do We do a gathering We have an away day But I guess what you're sort of saying there is baked into all of these processes like implicit rules that we just follow And that sort of limits us Is is it almost like an invitation to the the modern manager to take a step back and go what kind of space am I creating here What what am I going to achieve from
(25:04) from following this particular approach And is there another way Absolutely Yeah It's absolutely and and and for for the manager Yes But also for the consultant I think also consultants can um can sit in a particular frame You see if I if I come across uh the similar process the third and the fourth time the similar pro problem the the third and the fourth time I I mean I'm prone to think okay I've I've been here before I know what's the problem is I know how to approach this I know how to solve this and that's that's dangerous of course that's
(25:36) dangerous ground because you're not listening really fully You're not critical about what you're hearing um how you position yourself and uh about opportunities you might miss Now when you're in organization you're even more so sort of bound in a culture You've grown up perhaps in this organization and that's one way of doing things and you're not you're not seeing alternatives and if you see them you will find a lot of people around who don't want to see them and feel that this is this is not a good thing to do because this is not how things are done here Yeah It can be quite brave can't it
(26:06) Being doing something that's countercultural and and getting people to to think about things in a different way Absolutely Absolutely You can be brave and uh it might be too big a step also to do it So without without thinking about what would be small steps towards that because you might get rejected with your ideas Much is a how much is pace a problem cuz you know the organizations and leaders we work with everybody's moving so fast Some of the things you're talking about require people to slow down a bit and take that time to think differently and look at things from a different lens Do you see
(26:35) that in your work The pace and the Absolutely Absolutely I think pace is very important People need time to accommodate new ideas and to process new ideas It might make sense to have with a team five sessions of half a day rather than a two-day workshop because there's something happening in between and they can have conversations They can critique that and and come to terms with ideas and have other experiences in between integrated and so on Does take time by the way both in in therapy as well sort
(27:06) of as in organizations It does take time sort of to move things on and at the end um we all human beings so uh we we sort of we need for our own mental processes time to synthesize that at an organic level that now things should be different process the emotions that are linked to them there might be losses people might be overwhelmed and one need to think about safety and so on and so on so I think these processes need time we've asked you what you find what you find most job enjoyable what do you find
(27:33) most challenging about the different roles that you hold I have a paradox obstacle relationship with challenge I've learned for myself that the reason why I'm doing what I'm doing is because I can fail I wouldn't like to have a job where I would always know how to solve things So if something is let's just say there are difficulties I find it actually quite attractive Um I already mentioned that when things are too similar and there's a risk of it being boring I think that is actually a challenge and if something is relatively
(28:03) new and and uncharted ground then that probably is what I'm most drawn to So in that sense there are problem that probably things that are very new but I couldn't really feel it being challenging in that sense I would say they're most interesting and one of the things I also remember is just being introduced to a whole world of of tools and frameworks Um we often ask the question like particular tools or frameworks that you enjoy using not for every situation but if if someone is starting to sort of explore using
(28:32) systemic practice in their work what are some of those good tools that you would often turn to to use Well probably the there are number of tools Um when I'm looking at conversations then I'm I'm very of using the concept of what is called systemic domains of practice So I'm thinking what is it that we want to achieve here And I look at three dimensions And one dimension would be we call that aesthetics So what is actually what we want to create What's the purpose of this conversation And when we say what we create we also mean what do we want to create for each other So what sort of relationship would we like to
(29:06) have How would we like to be with each other How would that be a beautiful thing How can we make this a place also where we would like to work So these are is these are aesthetic aesthetic interests and uh and that's one context and that should be somehow at play all the time when we're working uh to think about ethics and things like that Another one is like which we call production So what do we relate to as if it would be fixed or agreed rather than like a construction everyone has a different opinion So we act as if we all have said we meet today at 2:00 That's
(29:38) helpful We all have said we use this tool We all have said this is the task of our conversation and have that clarity that is important to have good enough coordination in a team on a particular purpose and a third dimension would be um the domain I call it now domain of exploration So this is about the different voices and having different opinions and about a good dialogue and being open and you can see that you probably cannot always hold everything as most important So at some point you have to have an open dialogue
(30:13) At some point you need it's okay but when are we now going when are we now going to meet What is now the most important thing to do where you move from one domain to another So I find that a very useful tool to think about conversational processes and another tool and I just want to build on what I've just said Another tool would be to think about um and in therapy you do this You have pre meetings before you go into a meeting you think about what is it what we're going to create here ideally what is it that we should have agreed in terms of production what would a good conversation look like how would
(30:46) I would like different voices to be included how can I make this a very good conversation think about that before getting like poised into that situation and even think that everyone in this meeting is going to act with from a frame of good intention from their context So even if I may not like it but perhaps other people act from a frame of good intention how can I understand it this way And then you go into the meeting I think this these are just just two very simple and I think very useful ideas Fabulous So when you
(31:20) look back at your career so far what are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned so far biggest lessons um that I've learned I think I've learned that I have to work with the energy of the system or of other people um particular in a lot of things I'm doing I'm I'm part of just a very small team or I'm I'm alone and if it's now with a family or with the team working with people have energy for it may not what I think is the most important thing to do but just to start to work with that energy
(31:52) and then you have to set your sails and have the energy know capture that with your sails and if you are in sailing you know that you can also sail against the wind but you cannot go straight against the wind you have to cross against the wind you can reach all sort of places but you need to work with the energy of the wind it's not useful to say well I have a great idea and we need to go there and uh other people are not of the same interest even if if it's the best idea it's not going to work and uh the learning has to be in the system and uh
(32:21) in that sense I think That's uh that's that's that's a big learning for me I hope uh at large I can take it on board The other thing that perhaps already alludes to what I've said before to have this idea that people act from a positive intention from their context I think when you approach a situation from the frame that whatever you are whatever team presents or a family presents or a leader the difficulty someone might have If you see this as a competent achievement in relation to the circumstances a person or a team is experiencing It may not be the achievement that brings the desired
(33:01) results but it is a competent achievement and there are some resources at play which is creating that achievement and you see that as a resourceful production in that sense and approach it from that perspective I I think that multiplies your chances to help people or a system to to develop from that point because people very often come from a negative perspective Either they are negative or the team is negative You know Martin can you help me with this team They are rubbish Yeah we've had that one We've had that We've had that commission Yeah they're rubbish Yeah Well it's a really
(33:41) interesting way of seeing it isn't it And I guess you talk about sort of giving people agency because that means even in the worst situation where it feels unreoverable You can still see that an individual still has resources to change things around and they can still access it Um one of the uh sort of the tools that was introduced on the on the masters was like storyboarding with the uh coordinating management of meeting And when you do do storyboarding with colleagues and with a team from a really bad conflict the original action that potentially or episode that instigated the whole conflict is often
(34:11) that the core of it was an action with good intent that was just experienced in a negative way So it is a really powerful way of looking at things isn't it Absolutely Yeah There has been a lot of work done in the field of appreciative inquiry and that has something to offer but it is it is very often done in in a frame that only looks at positive things whereas difficulties that sounds maybe a bit paradoxical but difficulties also can be expressive of resources because if people wouldn't have a hope for it being different um and a commitment to it and have seen it
(34:43) somewhere else they wouldn't see it as as an opportunity and and come for consultation in the first place but also so-called difficult Difficulties might be the best attempts currently available to respond to a challenge to the organization or the team or to a challenge on some context which could be also an individual context of a leader Yeah That they feel threatened or whatever But it is it is the currently the most competent uh sort of response available in that system And that's that's a useful starting point because it leads you straight to think about
(35:14) what do we want to achieve here What have we tried so far in your what competences have you shown in what you have tried and also what sort of commitments have you shown in doing that you can't have a conflict without being super committed for example I really like that way of thinking and how do you you've got a real thirst for learning um how I'm going to ask you two questions here so how do you invest in your own learning and development and what's really capturing your attention right now what's exciting you I mean I'm I invest in my learning by creating new
(35:44) content so that is actually taking a lot of time to think through That's one thing I'm doing Um I I learn a lot really with my clients So that's a bit ongoing but I'm also following courses So um I've uh just completed for example last year a course on uh systemic hypnotherapy which is a quite interesting approach which I can also use in working with organization It's um a development from Milton Ericson hypnosis and linked to systemic practice It's not hypnosis in a way that everyone sort of closes their eyes but it's sort of thinking about how we are taken by
(36:21) particular discourses and ideas in our day-to-day practice and how we can create distance Uh so the idea of reflexivity is involved But it is much more looking also at our mental in inner processes and how we can change that from the insights of hypnosis So that's quite useful So I'm I'm I'm always look I'm on the outlook um of of what what can be done Um there are other courses I've done but I will not want to bore you with that but there's a there's there there's always something one can learn and there's actually more offer that is interesting that one has time to do Is there a particular book or a
(36:54) resource that's that you'd recommend to other people who are interested in this field Yeah Um there is that I mean there is a lot of literature out there I don't think it's easy to learn systemic practice from reading to be honest I mean I guess if people are interested in this sort of systemic organizational practice I would actually recommend them to do a one day introductory course with with me and Christine Oliver and get a sense of it because we bring these concepts to life and then one sees sort of where one wants to go further with it
(37:26) Um and and and we are usually happy then to give particular recommendation for particular people and their particular interests There isn't the one book I must say that we would have written and the ideas would be there but the time isn't there that I would say that is covering sort of the current thinking on systemic organizational practice Yeah that that that's a project still to be looked at at some point We should look forward to that definitely and and you've had such an interesting career both as inside an organization and
(37:57) external and one of the missions of this particular podcast is to inspire the next generation of organization development practitioners coming through and therefore hopefully systemic practitioners too What advice would you give for someone who's just considering a career so either they're an insider and they're frustrated with how things are and they want to affect change or they're considering a career What what kind of things would you would you say to them to help them on those first steps Well I mean I guess I think everyone who is interested in a career
(38:22) in organizational development which is such a huge field um they um maybe some young people start off with that but from my experience this is very often like a bit of a second career You have experience of some kind in organizations albeit in a consulting framework and at some point you think I want to specialize in a particular field you have an idea for your business or an idea in which sort of organizations you would like to work for and and I mean I think it's useful to put a bit of money where you where your commitment is and maybe find uh find a coach and commission the coach to explore with you
(38:58) the resources that you bring from your your own time from your experiences that you've had uh for the field of OD because I think in these days where so much change is going on it's really very hard to work in any organization without being exposed to change in the one or the other way and to develop competences um and to map out that I think would be a great start to sort of create a shape of what sort of practitioner do I want to be what sort of skills do I have what perhaps do I need to develop also to get a bit of an answer to you know why do I
(39:29) think I I can contribute to a system to a team to an individual as a coach and so on why do I think that this makes me credible what would I hope that uh my clients see so they think I'm credible and what drives me as a person to want to do that and um I think if you spend maybe three four sessions with a coach uh on these topics then it gives you already a bit of a direction and I would say that if people have their experiences I would also think it is useful um if it's not already on your CB to think about what sort of training can I do that kind of amalgamates my experience and extends it at that point
(40:08) So um um Garren you you're a charted um CIP whatever I don't know a senior specialist and so on Um and you know I guess when you do any sort of training you find a framework which under which you can put a lot of your own experiences to say okay I know this I feel competent and you have some other areas that uh that that you need to develop that are new and it has a coherent hole for yourself so you feel well orientated in your practice and uh this is usually what work experience doesn't give you or life experience in all sort of projects doesn't give you and um so so I think that would be
(40:45) another investment to do that would be I was thinking if if someone asks me that question really Well Martin I want to say a huge thank you It's been a really brilliant conversation Um we're just you know this is just the tip of the systemic iceberg that we're looking but a brilliant signpost to to people in the hallway Um and obviously I just want to say a huge thank you because being with you over three years absolutely shaped the way in which I sort of see the world and practice as an OD practitioner as well And I just I want to say huge thank you for that as well Um Danny what are
(41:13) you taking away from the conversation today Yeah lots of things I think there's been some really lovely definitions So that distinction between systems thinking and system systemic practice I think has been really really useful The reminder about the importance of context and kind of the obligations that places on people who are in that context and being aware of that And then the other takeaway for me is around the premeings the importance of pre meetings and building into that really trying to understand the other people's kind of
(41:36) potential frames and you know what's the good intent they're bringing into that that meeting that you're you're approaching So thank you Yeah Yeah And for me it's just it's been a really brilliant refresher of like just the importance of the different roles that we have at any one moment and all the obligations and rules that come with it and the fact that a really effective modern leader needs to be a professional pattern spotterility to see every just even just the tip of a pattern and just looking for those
(42:02) repeating patterns and what are they are they are they healthy patterns or they are they something potentially you need to intervene or to get some help to intervene as well Um Martin I know that people can be really interested in following your work or looking at some of the programs that you do as well What is the best way for people to reach out to you or to at least follow the work or or access some of the courses you're doing The easiest I think would be to go to systemicdevelopment.eu There's a newsletter there and you can
(42:27) register and you will be like on the loop of whatever we're creating and offering It's not gonna spamming you down because I'm too lazy to send out a newsletter every other week but from time to time you will get something and then you pick what what is interesting for you I think that's that's a pragmatic approach here Well thank you so much Martin and all the things that Martin shared with us we'll put the links in the show notes as well Um for those of you watching if you know someone who you think would really benefit from just looking at some of the principles and practices that Martin sh talked about today then please share it
(42:56) We get an extraordinary number of shares every week on our YouTube and and Spotify platforms and whatnot as well and that's sort of expanding the reach Um and if you have watched it and you've really enjoyed it then please subscribe to the channel too and also please do reach out to Martin He just offers some brilliant insights on many different things as well But most importantly thank you so much Martin It's been a real pleasure It's been a really great conversation So thank you Thank you Danny and Karen for having me
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