Learning that Moves the Needle with Michelle Parry-Slater - OrgDev Episode 69

Learning and Development that moves the needle. How do you design learning for high performance. What kind of friction is slowing your organisation down—and is it the kind that challenges, or the kind that quietly corrodes performance? In Organisation Development, we often look to build capability, improve systems, and align people to strategy. But sometimes the biggest gains come not from adding new layers, but from removing the friction that’s already there.. Our guest expert  Michelle Parry-Slater is on a mission to explore this area and offers a practical take on how to spot and reduce these points of drag

Michelle Parry-Slater
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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

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Transcript

(00:00) Hi and welcome to the org dev podcast. What kind of friction is slowing your organization down? And is it the kind that challenges or the kind that quietly erodess performance? In organization development, we often look to build capability, improve systems, and align people to the strategy. But sometimes the biggest gains not from adding new layers, but from removing the friction that's already there.
(00:22) Not the healthy kind where challenge sparks ideas, but the frustrating kind. misaligned processes, unclear decision-making rights, personality clashes, or cross teamam tensions that everyone learn to work around rather than through. So, we've invited a renowned expert who's on a mission to explore this area and offer a practical take on how to spot and reduce these points of drag, and it's the brilliant and wonderful Michelle Paris Slater.
(00:44) Now, many of you will know Michelle because she's a prolific author and L & D speaker. Um, she's also an award-winning learning and development organization development professional with more than 20 years experience in the industry. She's the founder and director of Chyros Modern Learning, an L & D consultancy specializing in driving a shift from traditional courses to embrace the best of digital, social, and face-to-face workplace learning.
(01:06) Michelle is known for working with clients such as the CIPD, the Co-op, the Dasis of London, the Charity Learning Consortium, and Hearing Dogs for Deaf People. She was the lead volunteer for L & D at Girl Guiding for 5 years and was listed as one of the top 20 corporate e-learner movers and shakers in 2018 and HR magazine's most influential thinker in 2023 as well.
(01:29) Michelle is also host of the brilliant learning from the edges podcast which we really recommend and she's also author of the learning and development handbook which is now in its second edition. Is that right Michelle? That is correct. Yeah. and it's a really practical guide for L & D professionals that want to move away from only offering traditional classroom material towards a really holistic organizational approach.
(01:49) And she immigrated to the Gold Coast in Australia in September 24 and she's currently immersing herself in the learning and development world across Australia. So, thank you so much for joining us, Michelle. It's a real honor to have you with us today. Oh, it's absolutely my pleasure. I I love this podcast and I listen to it all the time.
(02:05) So, what a joy to actually be on this side instead of listening. Thanks so much for having me here. [Music] It's lovely to have you with us, Michelle. We've got so many questions. So much we want to ask you and talk about. So just to kick us off, just tell us a bit about the work that you do. So I um really try and and stay in that practitioner space, but essentially I'm a consultant.
(02:33) So I support people to think about work workplace learning differently. Um and by differently I mean what's right for them at the time. So um some people have me down as oh she's that digital girl she doesn't like face to face. Um because in my book I talk about digital learning. I talk about social learning but I actually talk about the right learning for the right problem for the right people at the right time delivered in the right way.
(02:56) Um so really it's about helping people to understand what's the problem that you're trying to solve. What's the language of your organization? What are the things that concern the people in the organization? and then let's plug it in with some workplace development. Fabulous. And when you think about L & D and OD, do you differentiate between them? How do you you know where where's the the boundary? It's such an interesting question.
(03:14) So when I first started out in L & D, I didn't even know what OD was. I'd never really heard of it. I didn't not got that language, but I've always taken work um to be kind of a holistic things. You can't throw a stone in the pond and not there not be ripples. And so whenever you do any learning intervention, it it impacts more than, you know, simply the leadership development.
(03:36) Um, you know, and that's kind of the point. It's supposed to change behavior. Um, so when I wrote the book, a really respected OD practitioner who I adore said to me, it feels like you've written sort of an intro to OD book. I was like, oh, I'm not owning that. That's huge. You know, like really? She said, because your approach is really holistic.
(03:54) Your approach is whole systems thinking. And I said, "Is that is that OD?" You know, I was like, "What is this thing that they call OD?" And you ask 10 practitioners and get 10 different uh you know, sort of ways forward. But what I adore about your podcast and the way that you approach it, it's such a practical kind of approach and that's what I take with learning.
(04:16) And so I think I can see really clearly the mesh between the two. Um and in that regard, yeah, I guess I do OD as well as LMD. Brilliant. And one of those shifts kind of when you're just pure L & D I guess is moving from that kind of being an order taker and just creating a creating content to kind of being more of a consultative partner.
(04:37) How do teams make that shift? How do L & D practitioners move from that kind of order taker to the consultative? That is the scariest part, isn't it? Because people feel like, you know, I've always done what I've always done and we stick in our comfort zone. And you know, if you've always developed a course and that course has always had, you know, three-day workshop, then every problem you look at looks like it's a three-day workshop.
(04:56) You know, if you've always put, I don't know, disk profiling in your leadership development, then every leadership development program looks like it's got a discshaped hole in it. Um, but actually for me, it's really focusing on what is the problem that you're trying to solve. And that should be a business problem, not a problem of we need more bombs on seats or I need to sp spend my L & D budget otherwise I'm going to lose it.
(05:18) Um, you know, if you can't spend it, it's probably because there's not a problem to be solved. But generally there's somewhere there'll be there'll be a need for learning in an organization because if you're not learning, you're not moving forward. You're not moving forward. You're going backwards and your competitors are overtaking you.
(05:31) So it's as simple as that. So when it comes to how do you make that shift from order taker to a more sort of um Andrew Jacobs calls it an engineer uh if you like that sort of um focus on the wider organization it's just start somewhere start somewhere start with I wouldn't start with why a lot of people say just ask why why do you need another course but why is quite confrontational so I would tend to be a little bit more gentler about that and say how do you know that this will have worked what does it look like? Describe to me if this problem didn't exist, what
(06:05) would it look like instead? And you can start to have a more generative conversation around that. You can start to really build a picture of the real problem because sometimes, you know, along comes the sales director. Bob needs to go on a sales course. Well, okay. Again, here he is on his sixth sales call making no difference.
(06:25) Do you want one on Tuesday or do you want one on Wednesday? It's a bit like, you know, do you want a red one or a white one? It's all irrelevant. What you really need to be doing is is chatting with Bob. You know, what's not working and building a relationship with him for him to be honest with you and say, "Look, I'm good at this.
(06:42) I'm good at that, but I can't I just can't do that other thing." Closing a deal or building the relationship with a new customer or whatever. And then you could perhaps get him a mentor. It's as simple as that. So, what I try and do is encourage people to to just experiment a little bit. Be gentle in the approach. um we are seen as the shopkeepers.
(07:01) So if somebody comes to you and says they want a course, generally they want a course. Um but if we want to take them in a different direction, something that is a little bit more holistic or more appropriate, you know, the right problem um being solved in the right way, we might just need to ask a few more questions.
(07:17) It's that power of simple questions, isn't it? You don't sometimes you don't need to do much. It can be one or two really simple questions at the right time just to make people think slightly differently. You've got to know your audience though, haven't you? Because sometimes there's a lot of ego involved in this.
(07:31) You know, you've got a director asking an L & D person, and the L & D person generally is not an L & D director level. Um, and so how do you deal with that hierarchy? How do you deal with that status and that ego? Um, but gently is how I would suggest you do it gently, but quite firmly. And if you can lean into that, you know, how do you fancy being a bit, you know, doing a bit of an experiment? you know would you like to be the first in the organization to do courses a little bit differently sometimes you can get a in the armor in that way one of the things is
(08:03) that learning doesn't always land in organizations does it um there isn't a lot of investment and I guess some of the things that we often find is that sometimes learning isn't connected to the strategy for example so what are the specific capabilities that this organization needs to develop in order to deliver on that strategy is that your experience and And and if so, what is your sort of hypothesis about why that happens? 100%.
(08:29) And I put this squarely at the door of the L & D professionals. Um, you know, we've got to own it and we've got to own up to this because we count in the wrong stuff. You know, bums on seats, number of courses delivered, how many e-learns have you done? No one cares. Nobody cares about that stuff. And nobody really cares about learning and development.
(08:46) In truth, often times it's because, oh, we have to do it as compliance. Um, they don't necessarily say, oh, this is a problem. you know, Bob's not closing his deals. They don't think, oh, he needs learning. They they think, well, I'll sack him and hire somebody else and they'll go to recruitment before they'll come to learning.
(09:01) So, we're not good enough at what we count. We're also not good enough at shouting about the good value that we bring. And some of this is because we are doing work which is spinning around a business but not actually rooted in anything of value. So we're not sort of going out to um our stakeholders and and asking what their strategies are so that we can bring an L & D strategy out of their strategies.
(09:24) We might create an L & D strategy, but what is it based in and how is it benchmarked outside of our organizations? So I'm afraid I am a little bit cruel to my fellow professionals in this one because we're not good enough at the strategic stuff, but it's not difficult to learn how to do that. There's loads of material and stuff out there.
(09:43) I'll give a shout out to Michelle Oer. She does great work in learning strategy space and she puts a lot of it out there for us to learn from. Um, and you know, we do need to be able to deliver on an organizational strategy because if you can, then you demonstrate your value. If you've got your organizational strategy, you pull from that, these are the problems to be solved, these are the things we want to focus on, and you play right into that, how are you not bringing value to the organization? Whereas what I'm noticing at the moment
(10:10) is there's a lot of L & D professionals who are not in work. They're struggling to get the next gig. There's freelancers going into jobs because you know the market is really really hard at the moment and you're easily expendable if you cannot demonstrate your value. So I think it's an absolutely imperative that we get better at the strategic stuff because often there's a flaw in many strategy processes like you have the artifact of the strategy and congratulate each other and this is next level thinking almost isn't it because
(10:40) it's because if you actually ask the managers that help develop it what are the capabilities that isn't necessarily something they've considered or thought through. So there's a there's a partnering element to this isn't there to support them in in developing that and it fills the gaps in of the strategy anyway doesn't it? 100%.
(10:55) I mean the first question you should be asking when the strategy comes down from above is do you have the capability to deliver on that and the answer will be often a blank stare isn't that your job don't you do that aren't you the learning person you know well what capability do you have well I don't know do do you have any performance conversations through this nah we meet with them regularly but you know do you record any of that no and so yeah we do have um the opportunity to be that consultative partner to really support and encourage
(11:26) um good conversations within an organization and identify what that capability is. And I think there's a crossover here between talent and learning. Some people call it the same thing. Some people it's um you know very separate. Um but I think this is why we need to have that more broader wider outlook to our organization and really understand what what is it the business that we're in and there's an emerging trend particularly in the UK at the moment um for learning and because because often organization development
(11:52) roles are often hybrid roles. So the mixture of that and something else. Um and there seems to be more and more learning and organization development practitioners. What are your sort of findings at the moment? Like what what does it don't look like when it's done okay and what does it look like when it's done really well? They're two in my mind very distinctive different um categories of work that you you know if you're in learning you're not necessarily an OD and and vice versa.
(12:18) But what I've noticed certainly in Australia is that learning an OD is is the same. It's like the what the jobs are advertised as L & OD jobs. And when you dig into it, the OD part seems to be leadership development, which I just find really fascinating. It's quite a narrow band, a narrow thinking around what is organization development because in my mind, it's certainly not just leadership development at all.
(12:44) You know, where's the bigger picture? Where's the holistic systems? where are the you know the stakeholders, the strategies and that kind of thing. But we do see this sort of blend and I've seen it in the UK as well where you've got L & OD roles. Um and again it's it's that sort of too narrow a focus.
(13:01) Um my actual opinion and it's often a little bit controversial I suppose when I've when I've aired it is that if you think of all of the people profession like an umbrella and that umbrella top is organization development for me because that's the oversight of everything. That's the oversight of culture. It's the oversight of HR.
(13:17) It's the oversight of organization design. It's the oversight of learning and development. But often what we find in reality is your HRD thinks that they are the umbrella top whereas, you know, I I see it as we're all huddled underneath the umbrella of OD, but um often HR feel that we're all huddled under their umbrella.
(13:38) And I just think that that's not quite right because I don't think that HR has a big enough view of the organization and whereas OD really should have that bigger view. So how L and OD go together in that way. I don't know it's it's a bit jarring for me personally. And while we're on the subject of doublebarreled titles, this is an optional question.
(13:59) You got to learn. The other one is more and more HR teams being rebranded as people and culture. Uh and I'm and I'm curious because obviously again when we go in we we sort of say well what's your definition and like who holds this who's responsible and if HR responsible for culture what does that mean for managers as well but how when you have a people and culture team what do you sort of see as the role of learning and development fulfilling that culture tag I'm old enough to remember personnel before we even became HR
(14:30) before we then became people and culture and it really is a Uh it feels like a semantic shift in some organizations but it actually feels like a real shift in others. Um a long time ago I worked in a chocolate organization and they really owned culture. They were called HR but they really owned culture um as a as part of the organization and by owning it what I meant was that they they lived it, breathed it, talked it, encouraged it, got out there in the organization and were really good partners in the organization. And so in that regard, it
(15:04) worked very well. However, I've seen others where it is literally a rebrand. We're now people and culture. But what does that mean? Because culture is ethereal. Culture exists in an organization because of the history of the organization, the stories that are told, and the people. Now, if you take any one of those elements away, what are you left with? So, you know, if you take the people away because it's now owned over here by a small team of people.
(15:28) If you take the stories or you create the stories from a small team of people, I don't know, it just again it's a bit jarring to be honest, but it it definitely seems to be the trend. Definitely seems to be the trend. It's PNC everywhere you go these days, not HR do about that. Is it going to have a real rebrand because it's still got personnel in title? Yeah.
(15:49) And I guess sort of coming full circle to the questions we're asking here, which is if you're an order taker, are you shaping the culture? Are you actually going on the front foot and going right this is what the culture needs to become as well? No, but what's really interesting for me in learning and development if we have a unique position in an organization because we meet so many people you know they come through our our training room or they come through our live online classroom you know we know a lot of people and we can therefore influence a lot of people
(16:19) so we do shape the culture even if we run courses. Now where I say no if you're booking in externals you're outsourcing your culture basically you're outsourcing the ability to grow and influence your organization. So for an in-house L & D team, I think you have a lot of influence over culture, even if it is owned by your former brand, you know, what is it HR formerly known as or whatever.
(16:46) I think there's an opportunity for learning to be more deliberate and in in its culture shaping and therefore I guess that does step into that OD space. It's a very wonky line, isn't it? Because sometimes a really big opportunity, but it's actually seen as a burden, a bit of an ownorous thing, is mandatory training. Because you've got the ability to embed something that's so critical into the culture, but it's served up as this turded, dry punishment for people, isn't it? You've got me on my soap box now because I feel so strongly about compliance
(17:20) training, mandatory learning. It's our absolute shop window. There is no doubt about it that uh we are wasting our opportunity in L & D to really serve up what should be the best learning experience that anybody does in our organizations because it's the one that everybody does. So if everybody goes through it and we're serving up as you say our turgid, you know, terrible learning experience, then the next time we put on something discretionary, people are like, "Oh god, no thanks.
(17:49) I'm not going to do that." And it's why e-learning's got such a really bad reputation. you know, we just think click next quiz at the end, you know. In fact, my husband said to me today, he said, "Oh, I had to do some learning today." And um and I said, "Oh, that's interesting for you." He says, "Well, I put it I put the videos on double speed.
(18:04) I went off and did something else. Came back and took the quiz." I was like, "What? Your life works in learning and development and you disrespected it that much?" I shouldn't have outed him, should I? Shouldn't have said my husband. I should have said somebody I know. But but again, if you look at it through an OD lens, it's it's a game, isn't it? It's I know I have to give you mandatory training.
(18:28) You know, you have to do mandatory training, so let's just implicitly agree to just get this over and done with as quickly as possible. No, Gary, no. Let's deliver the best learning experience that anybody ever has. Now, there's a there's a case study in my book about this uh from Channel 4 and Acten. Um and Acten are fantastic at this work.
(18:50) They really really get under the skin of an organization and they deliver something that the organization recognizes. So when they delivered anti-bribery and corruption training for Channel 4, they delivered it like a, you know, Channel 4, it's edgy, it's a bit swear, it's late night, you know, you know, that's sort of the feel of a Channel 4 TV show.
(19:11) It's lots of bright colors. And they delivered learning like that. So people in the organization went, "Oh yeah, looks like us, feels like us, that is us. that must be important. I want to engage with that. And they did really well and they got loads of awards. This was 10 years ago. 10 years ago. And yet here we are still delivering up the turgid click next e-learning that people can put the video on twice speed and walk off and go and do something else because we feel like that's good enough.
(19:38) It isn't good enough. And so when we think about organization development, HR, all of our people profession coming together and delivering great work, compliance is a really easy win for me. As far as I'm concerned, we should be really investing in our compliance because why do we have it? We have it to stay safe, to stay legal, to to be ethical.
(19:58) These are really important things. So why are we doing something really important in a really poor experience? Doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. And it's not necessarily how people learn either, is it? Someone shared with me the other day um that they had to do mandatory training around belonging and inclusion.
(20:14) And it was and how do you change someone who has a particular mental model of biases around the world through that kind of learning? Like what does the L &D sort of say is the best way for people to sort of change their perspective on things like belonging? When you make somebody feel something, they will have a response to it.
(20:33) So, a lot of the learning uh interventions that I encourage are what are people feeling? What are they experiencing when they go through that? Um, and there's, you know, there's a great video out there. It was actually done by a beer manufacturer, um, where they got people together to, um, to basically have a chat, but what they did was they filmed them and they put very opposing views together, but they didn't tell them anything about each other.
(20:56) There was just two people that met. And then they they gave them different shapes and they built a bar essentially. and shared a beer. And then they showed videos that they had made previous to this where they were giving their opinions and they were very very opposed opinions to the person they were literally sitting opposite at a bar and they those people were like, "Oh well, let's have a chat about that.
(21:20) " You know, they didn't walk off. They were having that humanto human connection even though they were, you know, totally at polar opposites. And I think that this becomes part of the problem in a world where it's easy to be a keyboard warrior and anonymous that actually the humanity the feeling when you put that into your learning then people will have a response.
(21:40) I mean, I remember the very first time I was ever in VR some time ago now and um it was a sort of a scene where you were in a sort of amphitheater and there was a small kitchen and we were sort of having a look around this space and there was a fire in the toaster and the guy I was with, he said, "Oh, there's a some some uh fire extinguishers you you know in VR pick up the fire extinguisher, put the fire out.
(22:05) " Of course, I chose the wrong one. hadn't done the lay the training and uh blew up the whole place and I still feel bad that I blew up a VR imaginary space. This was years ago, you know, and I still feel bad about that. And if anyone says VR, I have this little kind of inside me go, huh? Because when you have an emotional response to something, when you when you actually feel it, and that doesn't have to be as deep as that, doesn't have to be as deep as having a conversation with somebody who you politically oppose or you are socially opposed to. Um, but it
(22:39) you can create feeling in learning. You can create a response. It doesn't have to be just click next, get the quiz, get it out the way, get it off my desk. It's a thing to do. That's not learning at all. Yeah. So I was going to ask so you you've you've got your second edition of the learning and development handbook.
(22:55) What were the big changes between first edition and second edition and kind of what does that say about how things are evolving? It's an interesting question because when I got asked to do the second edition I was like my baby is perfect. How can I possibly do another edition? What are you talking about? And then I sat down and I thought well what has changed? And initially I was like well nothing really has changed has it? But then actually everything has changed and yet nothing has changed.
(23:20) It's really interesting that at the moment I am visiting tweets that were the the they were the sort of the body of work I did in 2015 that then became the book and uh they're 10 years old now and so I'm revisiting them each day by day um on blue sky rather than Twitter this time to decide what has changed and what hasn't changed and I find it really interesting.
(23:42) So things that have changed the technology, the platforms, you know, we didn't have this technology Riverside that we're recording in today. So we've got lots more technological advances. So it's easier to create videos, podcasts, resources. Um those are all a lot easier. But what hasn't changed is people's need for connection.
(24:01) And in fact, I think that's increased in a postcoid world. People's need to connect with each other. And so we've had a bit of a rush back to face to face. It's not necessarily the right solution for the right problem, but it's the it's because people want the feelings. People want to make that connection.
(24:19) So my call out in the in the second edition is call it what it is. It's networking. So if that's what people want, put that in. But it's not learning. So call it what it is. Um so there's certainly a need for that. Other things of course we can't deny. The AI revolution is here. Now the the book was I don't even know about books.
(24:38) you write them months before they actually come out. So when I wrote the second edition, AI was quite naent. Um whereas now it is is dur um I think if the third edition was to come out that would definitely be a big shift in in how we're using AI. Um but at the time it's a little bit of a start. Um but what hasn't changed is in the book I am encouraging people to give things a try. Try things differently.
(25:04) Don't just keep turning out the stuff you've always turned out because that's your comfort zone as an L & D practitioner. And actually, we we're encouraging every time we run a learning intervention, we're encouraging our learners, the people who are in that room or on that um that learning experience to step out of their comfort zone, into their learning space, into their growth zone.
(25:25) And yet, we're perhaps guilty of not doing it ourselves with the the materials and the the exercises and the experiences that we produce. So that hasn't changed in the book because I am definitely encouraging people to just give new stuff a try. You'd mentioned AI. It can't not come up in a conversation like this.
(25:43) Um with just a few prompts, anyone can generate a workshop outline and some content. Where are the opportunities and where are the risks in the ability for democratizing a lot of the L &D? Now I think that actually AI has just highlighted the fact that content is everywhere anyway. So even without the ability to pull it together in seconds, and it is literally seconds, you could have, you know, we could before the end of this podcast have a brand new blended leadership development program which is at the cutting edge of thinking and it
(26:16) it could just be producing that for us within seconds. So the whole idea about content, content is not the point. Context is the point. And so as an L & D practitioner, you know, if you're fearing for your job because of content production, you're missing the point. You should you shouldn't be fearing for your job because we will always need to provide context.
(26:38) We will always need to help people to synthesize the learning experience to their reality. And it comes up with the question of where does the learning happen? Does the learning happen as they're going through that experience or does the learning happen when they take that back to the workplace and try it for the first time? reflect on it, try it again differently the next time, reflect on that.
(27:00) And I think for us as practitioners, we need to build in that reflection time to um our our experiences for people because they tend not to. They'll go to the intervention, they'll do the three-day leadership program. Maybe the content's been created by AI, maybe it's brilliant, but then they go back to the day job and it all is forgotten.
(27:18) And when you ask them three months later, what was it like? They go, "Oh yeah, there was that thing and I watched that video and oh yeah, the lunch was lovely." That's just starting to see this a little bit and again just get your view is as you start to because there's a there's a lot of particularly whether you're delivering OD interventions or whether you're doing L & D interventions, there's a lot of logistics and stuff that has to happen for a session to happen and happen well.
(27:42) AI is going to automate a lot of those processes and yet it's often seen as an efficiency. That's great. We now only need a coordinator or whatever and but the opportunity is is for people to actually well actually that frees us up to do a lot more interesting work actually start partnering to the organization.
(28:00) What can Len OD teams do to make sure that when it's not seen as an efficiency saving but an opportunity to optimize the organization? This has been the same, you know, if you go right back when books were invented, people said the same things. You know, books were, "Oh, they're just going to stop people's brains from working because it's all written down.
(28:17) " And, you know, when when cars were invented and you were working with anything to do with horses, game over for you. But, you know, oh, people are always going to need horses. So, we've got the same kind of thing happening now. It's when we move from field to factory, from factory to knowledge work, and now we've got augmented knowledge work.
(28:35) So for me it's about looking at AI as that augmentation as it's it's you plus. Um and so I don't think we're ever going to be I mean I might eat my words in 5 years time but I don't think we're ever going to be out of a job because it's not just content. It's not just the logistics. It actually frees up our our coordinators.
(28:54) By coordinators you the more junior roles. Is that what you're sort of indicating there um Garin? people coming into the profession I think they can upskill to be facilitators for example much quicker than they used to be able to you used to have to sit in the chair because there was no hierarchical sort of you know you had to do that that the hierarchy meant that there was no way up without sitting in the chair for a few years well skip that step just go straight to to facilitation and when you see the quality of people who are coming through
(29:22) I'm thinking about people who are in the 30 under 30 cohort for learning technologies for example brilliant brilliant brains, brilliant, brilliant young minds who don't need to go through that. Just because we all had to do that, you know, doesn't mean that the next ones had to do that. We just skip the steps and go straight to to the good stuff.
(29:43) And and we're always going to need that facilitation skill. always going to need the bit the the people that help others to think that help other people to reflect that help people to know let's imagine take the artifacts of culture that you might be creating in an OD space and actually understand what does that look like when I apply it to my team.
(30:03) Hi, we're just pausing this interview for a moment. Have you ever finished an episode of the ordev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points? Us too, so we made one. It's called From Pod to Practice, and each week in our newsletter, we'll share a two-page summary of the latest ORG dev episode, and it includes key takeaways, a reflection prompt, and one small action you can try.
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(30:41) live live to get the latest from pod to practice in your inbox and let us know what you think. We'd love to get your feedback. Changing gear a little bit, what was your journey into this work? How did you end up doing this work? By accident. I don't think anybody since age 5 years old, oh miss, miss, when I grow up, I want to be a person who works in L & D.
(31:01) Like, I'd never even heard of OD and now I do quite a lot of OD type work. So, so I think a lot of it's by accident. But to be less flippant, I was a English teacher in Japan for a few years after my degree had finished. Um and uh when we came back, I say we, my then um then boyfriend, now husband of 25 years, um we came back to England because he's a a history teacher and wanted to teach history.
(31:25) And I was like, I have no idea what I want to do. And I ended up looking um at a job. Do you remember when they used to be in the newspaper? And um there were my dad was like, Michelle, Michelle, there's a job here. Japanese speaker went, "No, no, Dad. I've been speaking English for two years because everyone I met wanted to speak English.
(31:44) " Um, but next to that ad, and this is serendipity, I love a bit of serendipity. There was a job for relocation consultant. Thought, well, I've relocated. I've been in another country. I've got some skin in the game there. So, I applied and got that job. And I worked in relocation uh or global mobility as it tended to be called uh later on for 15 years.
(32:03) Um, and because I had that teaching background um, in from Japan, whenever new people came to the company, they would always like, "Oh, go and sit with Michelle. She'll teach you what to do. She'll tell you what to do." And that eventually got formalized. Um, and that's how I kind of landed a job in in learning really.
(32:20) But I really found my calling because my my life's work is just to be useful. I just think, well, we're on this planet to to do something useful. What's the point of not doing useful things? So to be able to be useful, to help people to be better is is a massive privilege, huge privilege. And when you watch those light bulbs go on, when people get a breakthrough, when people really grow, and there's nothing that gives me a bigger dopamine hit than when you see somebody that you've helped get a promotion or move to a new company
(32:54) or something like that. They're just lovely, lovely experiences and lovely feelings. So I did come into it a little bit by accident, but I really do feel that that serendipity has worked for me a little bit throughout my career. And you're starting to talk more about friction in organizations.
(33:10) I've seen you talking and writing about that. Where's that come from? That came from the book. So when I published the first edition in 2021, I would say 95% of the feedback I have was, you know, where was this book when I started out and this has really been so helpful and we can really understand that you're a practitioner and all of those kind of lovely lovely comments.
(33:31) And I used to get a couple few people who would say it's just not landing for me like how can I do this? You know, you're asking me to to say to superior people in my organization that you know, we're not going to do a course. How can I even start having that conversation? I was really curious about it. So during the course of 2022, I started to do some deskbased research around why are people so stuck in hierarchy? Why are people so stuck with the inability to have courageous conversations to speak up in their organizations? Now ultimately it comes
(34:05) down to the fact that we need to work for money to eat to pay our mortgage to pay our rent and you know you're not going to bite the hand that feeds you. Um but that curiosity has led to more and more conversations around how organizations are hindering themselves by not letting the brilliant brains in their organization to be free and to be open and to talk about things that are fantastic innovation.
(34:31) people are just afraid and I felt that fear. I mean, I've been in organizations where I've been afraid and certainly my very first job was in a bank. Um, got told off for laughing at work and that's still with me today. I still, you know, how could somebody tell you off for laughing at work? Yeah, I was.
(34:53) Um, and so how you behave in work was quite formulaic and and quite boxed in. I love it now though. I think I see younger people coming through and they're just taking none of this nonsense. They're just like, I'm out of here and and moving on. And I think that we're still shedding that old paradigm of a job for life or the loyalty and the respect and the hierarchy.
(35:16) And where possible, I really advocate for moving from that sort of ego system of that hierarchy into an an ecosystem where all the brilliant brains are harnessed influenced by people like David Marqu and his intentbased leadership. um people like Nancy Klene and her thinking environment because when you do let people free to think, you know, when when they are able to to be the best person they can be at work, everybody wins. Everybody wins.
(35:47) So the opportunity, I guess, for for that to happen is really what's important to me. And so I'm I'm lucky and in a bit of a privileged position where I can support some of that. And so I've put flat structures into organizations before now. I've encouraged my clients to go flat or flatter um so that we can get rid of some of these old type of of thinking.
(36:09) So do you see hierarchy as kind of part of that kind of friction that needs to be def definitely caused a lot of friction. Yeah. So from that from that research that deskpace research I started learning from the edges podcast simply because I wanted to have the conversations as research pieces anyway. I thought, well, if I'm having conversations with interesting people, I may as well stick them out there.
(36:28) Um, and really to explore what does friction look like on the ground? What does friction look like in a variety of different settings? So, spoke to people about HR and the setting of HR, neurodeiversity. Garin was a brilliant guest talking all about organization development. So looking at that from a variety of different lenses and what was really interesting across the entire suite of those conversations was very similar themes and a lot of it came down to hierarchy status ego payrades you know these sorts of things were the the
(37:02) sources of friction. So if you can eliminate these sources actually work flows more freely and some organizations are really doing this. You know corporate rebels have got lots of stories about it. Organizations organizations are definitely looking at ways that they can structure um and systems that they can implement in order to reduce friction at work.
(37:23) And I am all for it. I am here for that for sure. I don't want my children to go into the world of work and get told off for laughing at work. not get a pay rise because, you know, they've not sat in the chair long enough or get passed over for a promotion because, you know, they're the wrong gender or the wrong age or any of those things. Yeah.
(37:40) I think there's something interesting, isn't there, about harmful friction and useful friction because I guess what we do sometimes as L &D and OD practitioners is kind intentionally create friction to kind of disrupt. So, it's kind of getting that balance right, isn't it? Yeah, I totally agree. And that that definitely came out of the conversations and out of the deskbased research and will eventually make it into a book if I stop moving around the world and having really good life events getting in the way of writing it all
(38:05) down. Um, but uh there there needs to be friction because we can't think friction is bad. Friction actually means grip. You know, you want your tires to have friction on the road that keeps you safe. um you want there to be a degree of uh of of energy that's caused by friction because that energy is where the innovation sits or it's where you might have um a challenging conversation but move things forward as a result the ability to have the challenging conversation without judgment without fear that's the difference between good
(38:39) friction and bad friction in my world when we spoke in the prem you talked about the environment the importance of environment in kind of kind of creating or alleviating friction Do you want to say more about that? The the challenge that we have is that a lot of environments of work don't lend themselves to having these good conversations that we're talking about.
(38:55) Um, and I think it makes a big difference as to where you have the conversations. So, wherever possible, for example, I always encourage people, especially if I'm on a leadership program and I'm encouraging leaders to think differently, to go for a walk with people that they work with and for um because when you've got eyes front, there's less friction.
(39:14) It's as simple as that. is why, you know, they always say talk to your teenagers when they're in the car. And that works cuz they're trapped and you're not looking at each other. But, you know, when you're on teams meeting, it is really unnatural. Human beings don't stare into the eyes of other human beings unless they love them.
(39:32) That's really traditionally where we've kept that type of relationship. But now, you know, I'm I'm so conscious of looking at you both. I'm just going to look slightly to what's going on because it's just really unnatural. and suddenly we're on teams calls all day but we're not socially connected but we are staring at each other in a way which is really quite a vulnerable position.
(39:53) So we need to think about how are we having these conversations and where are we having these conversations and it's important that when we when we think about office space and um you know we've redesigned a lot of office space and there's been a lot of research into that the likes of of Herman Miller for example have done a lot of research into how we connect and convene ourselves and even the barrier of having a table in front of you when you're having a professional development conversation with your divine leader that is a cause
(40:24) of friction because there's a barrier there's a physical barrier between you and if somebody's you know writing notes or worse still they're talking to you whilst they're typing on their computer again another physical barrier the environment isn't conducive to having a good conversation and I just don't think we do enough about looking into the environment some years ago um a major supermarket in the UK built a training uh and development kind of office space if you like.
(40:54) It was a in a the grounds of a country estate which is great because you can go on good walks, you can have good outside, you know, learning. I'm sure everyone remembers when the teacher at school said, "Oh, should we go outside onto the field to learn?" It's like, "Oo, how exciting." Highlight because it is, you know, making daisy chains with your mates whilst you're learning something new and you remember it.
(41:16) Even all these years later, everyone remembers it because the brain likes novelty. because it's not the everyday because actually we can breathe in fresh air. We can get new ideas and so when it comes to creating space they they created this office space. They even thought about the color on the walls because that can have an impact on people's mental state on people's well-being on people's thinking.
(41:41) Um and all credit to them to be honest because I don't think that enough organizations go to that level of detail. their designers, you know, make it look good, but is it practically useful? I'm not so sure. Yeah. Just maybe think of AI and I'm increasingly seeing people bring their AI bots to meet, you know, Teams meetings or Zoom meetings because they want to transcribe the meeting.
(42:00) And I really wonder what that does to the quality of those conversations and the nature of those conversations. Yes, it feels efficient because there's a bot taking notes. You'd have to do that a bit, but I I think it's it's really interesting what that's doing to those conversations and how people are showing up. I heard somebody describe it recently is as is smoothing our brain and I can kind of understand what they mean by that.
(42:21) But what we should be doing especially in L & D is we should be encouraging what does the neuroscience tell us about helping us to remember um you know write in a colored pen rather than in black and blue because of the novelty factor. Um you know doodle during your team meetings instead of staring intently at the eyes of your not beloved.
(42:42) Um, so we there are things that we can keep doing and can do perhaps more of whilst the bot does transcribe. The challenge with that transcription is is very passive. So we need to be even better at creating active learning environments, active learning experiences. Otherwise, we're going to lose the ability to think for ourselves.
(43:05) I think what AI gives us is do all of the the automation to give us the higher order thinking time back. Yeah. And if that's how we can get the balance right, it's going to be awesome. I mean, it is awesome already. Let's face it, it is awesome already. And it's all the same fears. You know, the printing press came out and suddenly knowledge was was no longer in the heads of individuals, but it could be synthesized across organizations.
(43:29) Well, not even organizations at that time, was it? It could be spread across um towns, cities, different locations, or every time there's a new technology, this fear comes alongside it. But the novelty factor brings something else into play, doesn't it? Uh, so we're big fans of the perceived weirdness index where it's like, is what I'm introducing different enough to make people, so yes, we're going to go and sit out in the field, but there's also those extreme risks where you just get it wrong and it's just too woo woo or too out there.
(43:59) Everyone like, ah, we're rejecting this. How does a a you know, an L & D professional know where that perceived weirdness index needs to sit? Like how how left field can we be here? I I think there's a really clear um sort of marker and it's three concentric circles. The middle one is our is our comfort zone.
(44:20) The the the sorry the center one is our comfort zone. The middle one is our growth zone and then the outer one is our discomfort zone. And if you're pushing people beyond their capability for growth, you're pushing them into discomfort. And this comes right back to something we talked about at the beginning, relationships.
(44:38) You need to know the people in your organization. Now, different departments are going to have different levels of comfort. You know, I'm just going to pick on, I don't know, finance, engineers, and sales. If you were to put that group of people together and say, "Okay, we want you to go up the front and give a 10-minute presentation on something you're passionate about.
(44:59) Sales team are up there, no problem. They're not even in their growth zone. They're in their comfort zone because they do this every day." you know, your engineers potentially, you know, they may they may feel passionate and and they'll be perhaps in their comfort or growth zone, but you've got your finance people who rarely make presentations.
(45:16) They're all about the numbers. They're not about the humans. You you've shoved them straight into their discomfort zone. And that's why you need to provide a differentiation of learning experience and really know your audience to really understand your business. And for me, that's very similar work to OD. That's very similar to having the right conversations with the right people at the right time about the right stuff.
(45:39) Um, and the opportunity for us to do that in L & D doesn't get doesn't change with AI doesn't change with the new technology. We still need to have human connection. So the best the best L & Ders I know spend a lot of time in the canteen or in the in the passageway places, you know, the p places where people cross through in organizations.
(45:59) They'll dip in and out of meetings that aren't their meetings um just so they can hear and listen and understand and get a feel for the organization. One of the first things I say to people is what's the language of your business? And if they can't describe that, we start there. You know, if they don't know if their business is all about customers and it's all about measured with the with you know the net promoter score, then how are they going to lean in with their metrics for learning? where are they going to actually link
(46:25) back again something we talked about earlier to the to the original strategy of the organization and we touched earlier just on the things that bring you joy what what do you find most challenging that nobody cares I mean ultimately I get it I totally get it people are paid to care about sales or engineering or finance so why should they care about learning and people development and that's really I I do find that frustrating because I genuinely believe it to be true if you are not developing your people as a line
(46:54) leader, then you are moving backwards. You're you're actively seeking to not be the best organization you can be. Now, the problem we have is line leaders are chosen from a pool of technical experts. If you're good at your job, the only way to get more money, status, power, whatever you call it, is to be promoted to manage other people who are doing the job you are good at.
(47:15) People management and whatever technical expertise you have are two different skill sets. So this is why billions of pounds, dollars, whatever currency every year is spent on leadership development because we recruit from technical expertise. We don't recruit from people. I mean I would love there to be university degrees in people management.
(47:38) I would love there to be a route into business just through people management. You don't need the technical capabilities. You need to understand how people work. You need to understand how teams work, the dynamics of teams. is you need to understand your world of what do systems do, what do environments do, you know, what do pressures do, what does friction do to people in work.
(47:59) Is there a particular tool or an approach or a method that you you really really enjoy using or find really effective? I really enjoy sharing a conversation with whatever it is that we're doing, we L & D, OD, organization, design work, any work. Burke Litwin I really love because it really reminds people how totally connected everybody is.
(48:21) So if you grow something great over here, what ripples is that going to have over there? You know, if you blow something up over here, what ripples are you going to have over there? So I I really like that framework for just reminding us how we're all connected, how the feedback loop goes round and round. And um you know I I I appreciate the kind of the the transactional tactical kind of approach to it as well that it it it's you're the shadow of the leader.
(48:46) I just Yeah, that's my favorite. Okay. I bring it into most things. You horn it in. Fabulous. And when you look back at your career so far, what are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned that you take? Humility. Um and I know people can say that and it be quite trit. Um, but the the thing I'm most proud of ever in my work was after George Floyd was killed in America.
(49:09) I was working at the time full-time with CIPD. Um, they'd been my client, they are my client, been my client for a long time and um, I'd been brought in to support their commercial learning and digitized content because they largely had face toface. So we're working on that particular project and out of nowhere after that killing Peter Cheese the CEO there had addressed the sort of the wide organization and said you know we want to do um something here we want to make an appropriate response so they'd gone out to the employee resource groups and
(49:40) um said you know what would be the right response what would you like us to do and they chose me it's like where did this come from but they chose me to host a conversation a whole organization conversation. Um, and I got a phone call from somebody I didn't know, um, in the organization who was a person of color who said, "We'd like for you to facilitate this conversation for us.
(50:05) " And what an honor, um, how terrifying, cuz I could not mess that up at all. Um, and what that person didn't know about me um was that I studied African-American women's history um at university for a long time and and felt very connected to making the world affair a place. Um, and so what an honor to have been picked by that.
(50:27) And I said to her at the time, I said, you know, you can't possibly have known that about me. Why did you pick me? And she said, because of your allyship that comes through in everything that you do. Um, and so when something was so sort of deep-seated in me, I had no no real conscious idea, I guess. Anyhow, it was a massive honor, huge honor, and and we held a conversation that people could speak freely for the first time.
(50:49) And some people had worked at the organization for years and years and described how they never could be themselves at work, which was awful. um and CIPD really addressed it, really changed and and tried to do better as we all should try and do better. So that that really shaped me and I'm really proud of that.
(51:14) And how does a learning and development Jedi like you invest in your own learning and development? It's because we're recording this in May, you know, not May the 4th. Jedi. Thank you. Sorry, what was the question? I was blown away by that. How do you invest in your own learning and development? Oh, for me, this is this is my advice to everybody, whether you're new to the profession, whether you've been in the profession for years, network, network, network, network, network, network, network.
(51:38) And it's really it's really brought it home to me because I've moved halfway across the world and my network has gone from being huge to three people and a dog. Um, and so I'm really living that. Uh, and and I have to say it's so so true. I've always believed it to be true. Personal Learning Network, the PLN, it's in the book. It's on my hashtags.
(51:57) It's something I use all of the time because I just hugely value meeting people. And as you know, Garin, years ago, Fiona McBride and I started L & D co-work because we we can't even if you're a single practitioner of any profession in an organization. Meeting with and spending time with other practitioners is so important.
(52:18) It's so important for your well-being, for your thinking, for even your mental state. Because sometimes you can think well I want to try and do this differently but nobody believes in me in my organization to find someone else who's doing that and having that struggle um or succeeding and saying try it this way I I you know I did that and giving you advice.
(52:35) So networking is absolutely key. So this is why I speak at conferences. It's why I go to the conferences. It's why I um you know judge industry awards to just find out who's doing good stuff and chat to them. Fabulous. And then one more question. Is there a particular book or podcast or resource that you'd like to re recommend or a books you could you could go for multiple because because we got a sneak peek at the Paris Slater bookshelf.
(53:02) It's quite something to behold, isn't it? It's interesting because my husband's a massive avid reader and I would say I'm not an avid reader. So, a book for me has to be accessible and I wrote my book for me because it's got the short reads, the long reads, the lists, you know, because you can pick it up and put it down. So, I like a book that's accessible.
(53:21) So, I'm looking at my many, many books and I'm thinking that I think I'm going to give a shout out. I've already given him a shout out already. I'm going to shout out to David Marqu, Turn the Ship Around. And there's also an a companion book that goes with this, which is a workbook, and there's not many sort of business books that have got that companion.
(53:41) Um, so that's why one of the reasons I like it. So, what I love about David, um, and he's a really he could be a really arrogant person. I don't know if you know anything about him. He was a nuclear captain captain on a nuclear submarine. So, he could be hugely arrogant because, you know, he could kill people with a push of a button and it was his push of the button that could do that.
(54:01) But, he isn't actually. I'm very fortunate to have met him and worked with him once and he's he he's just a very real, humble person. So, I like the fact that I'm not surprised that he's put his book out there and he's put a book out alongside a companion that can help people to utilize his thinking and and put that into play.
(54:22) The last question for the interview and the question we ask in every interview because one of the missions of this podcast is to inspire the next generation of organization development practitioners. So whether you're an Ellen OD practitioner or whether you're just looking at it as a potential occupation, whatever it is, what advice would you give to someone who's starting out? Firstly, listen to this because it's a great podcast.
(54:44) Not this episode necessarily. I don't mean to float my own boat there, but um yeah, it is I I have learned so much from you, Garin, and I'm not blowing smoke. I genuinely am grateful how much you put out for your profession. um because that's that's just a gift to everybody in the profession. You make us all better by by questioning and challenging.
(55:07) Um so definitely listen to this podcast. But then I think I'll go back to what I said earlier, which is network a lot. So get yourselves to the free events, get yourselves on the free webinars. You know, you've got to cut through sometimes where there's a little bit of sales and that kind of thing. You know, be be good at discerning what you need to take, but notice who's in the chat.
(55:27) have conversations in the chat on these free live events. You know, I I remember years ago people that were on the learning and skills group webinars and they're still running those webinars. They're brilliant webinars and they're people that and then started to follow on LinkedIn and Twitter and started to build from there. Um and before you know it, you know, you know, loads of people.
(55:48) Somebody I met in Australia said to me, Michelle, my ambition for my career is that I know as many people as as you. And she went, "No, actually, no, I changed that. I know more people than you." I said, "Well, I can guarantee in Australia you'll know more people than I do right now." Yeah. Network, network, network. Brilliant.
(56:08) Well, I just want to say a huge thank you on behalf of me and Danny, and we've really Well, I can't speak for Danny, but I I've loved it. It's been such a good conversation on on Riverside. I have a little button here that says marker. So, I mark the bits and I've got nine, which is which is a podcast record. I've never f this is good. This is good.
(56:26) I've been on my soap box a little bit. I've been a bit ranty. Maybe I don't know. It's because it's the the end of a working week or something. I'm not sure. But the opportunity to call it for what it is is important. And you know, have those courageous conversations. So, thanks for the opportunity to do that. No, it's been brilliant.
(56:41) And Danny, what are you taking away from the conversation? I think people are going to take a lot away from this. I think you'll have challenged and provoked a lot of people to rethink things. So, um, just a couple of things that have stuck with me that the importance of really being rooted in the value that we're creating and linking to the organization strategy and whatever we're doing.
(56:56) And the other thing around the compliance training, I loved what you said about that being a really easy win and kind of using as a a shop window for the the work that we do and how we do it and not not underestimating the importance of doing that. Well, yeah. And and for me, there's a couple of sort of zinger standout points.
(57:11) Context isn't the point. No, so content isn't the point. Context is the point which I think is just no actually I think you got that wrong. Context is very important. That is the point and and how you synthesize that that context into the training really matters. And that kind of led on to something else you said which is like you know the best L & D people spend time in the canteen.
(57:33) They they have their finger on the pulse of what's happening in the organizations what's keeping it because you've got to enter the grammar of the organization. the the L &D dies or OD dies when it's just people feel it's being done to them rather than with them as well, doesn't it? Yeah. And and our cousins in change the same, you know, when change is done alongside and with compared to when change is done to is exactly the same as L & D.
(57:56) And the problem is we have in L & D is the perception is everyone knows what we do because everyone's been to school and everyone's done the really terrible compliance e-learning. So there's already a sort of we're on the back foot before we've even started. So, we've really got to know our organization and be known in our organizations for sure.
(58:15) That context is so important. That language is so important. Brilliant. And you offer a treasure trove of resources and books and articles and podcasts and posts and tweets. If people want to follow your work or engage with you or you know just to even just to get order the book and which all this will be in the show notes, what's the best way for people to reach out? probably find me on LinkedIn.
(58:39) I'm quite lucky. I've got a unique name uh at the moment anyway. So yeah, find me on LinkedIn, but please, please, please put a little note when you connect because I get I don't know 20 a week of just connect. I'm like, who are these people and why do they want to connect with me? Do they want to sell me something? Um but when it comes to my my best advice of network, network network, you wouldn't run up to somebody in the street, give them your CV and run away.
(59:03) And when you connect with somebody on LinkedIn without a note, that's actually what it's like. It's just like here, here I am. Well, who are you and what's the context here? Like what's the connection? So, so just give me a little note and I will be sure to link in with you. I want to say a huge thank you, Michelle.
(59:20) It's been a really brilliant conversation. Um, if you are watching this conversation and you think you know someone that would really get a lot of value from it, maybe it's a learning and organization development person that's a little bit lost and trying to find their way or if you're coming you know people or team that's struggling, then please share this podcast with them.
(59:36) We get so many shares every single week. And if you enjoyed it, hit the like button because the algorithm gods love it. And also hit the subscribe button as well because the more people that we can reach out to, we can just keep the podcast going as well. But thank you so much. But most importantly, thank you so much, Michelle.
(59:50) It's you you are the furthest person away we've ever interviewed. I think Seattle was the previous record. It is now about 10 o'clock at night after a long day of work for you. So on a Friday on a Friday pushing it through. So on behalf of our audience, thank you. No, there's nothing like an energizing conversation. So it's all good. It's all good.
(1:00:09) And let me just say I'll I'll give you a little code that anyone who's buying the book from this podcast can uh can get a discount as well. Brilliant. We'll make sure that's in the show notes. Thank you so much, Michelle. And you can go to bed now. Yeah. Good night. [Music]