Neuroscience of Learning and Behaviour Change with Stella Collins - OrgDev Episode 65

How can we leverage what neuroscience experts know about the brain to design learning that actually sticks? If we know so much about how the brain works – why is so much learning still designed in ways that ignore it? 

In this episode, we’re looking into what neuroscience can teach us about how people and organisations really learn – not just in theory, but in practice. We explore how memory works, how we build skills and retain knowledge, and even the role of exercise in boosting cognitive performance.

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

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Transcript

(00:00) Hi, welcome to the org dev podcast. So, if we know so much about how the brain works, why is so much learning still designed in ways that ignore it? So, how can we leverage what neuroscience experts know about the brain to design learning that actually sticks? In this episode, we're diving into what neuroscience can teach us about how people and organizations really learn, not just in theory, but in practice.
(00:22) We'll explore how memory works, how we build skills and retain knowledge, and even the role of exercise in boosting cognitive performance. We wanted to run an episode on neuroscience and learning for ages because it's a critical part of change and organizational effectiveness. So in our search for a leading expert, we came across the outstanding and accessible work of Stella Collins.
(00:42) Stella is a specialist and consultant in the compelling field of neuroscience. She's an accomplished and renowned expert in the practical application of science-based learning to for business performance. And in the time Stella has trained thousands of professionals in a career spanning 25 years.
(00:57) Stella is on a mission to create a world where every minute spent learning is worth it. And this really matters because time to learn in our ever faster moving organizations is at a premium. Stella is an evangelist for effective evidence-based learning. And through her work, she has challenged us to rethink traditional learning.
(01:14) Her book neuroscience for learning and development has been translated into four languages and is actually in its third edition. Is that right, Stella? That's right. Y people are really enjoying that clearly. Her LinkedIn learning course has had more than 50,000 participants and Stella is a really renowned keynote speaker and also host of Mind the Skills Gap podcast.
(01:33) Naturally with someone of Stella's experience, she's also has a huge number of professional qualifications and academic qualifications. She has a bachelor of science in psychology and a masters of science in human communication. And she's also a fellow of the Institute of Training and Occupational Learning and founder of the Brain Friendly Learning Group.
(01:52) So, we're absolutely delighted to have you join us. Thank you so much for making time for us. [Music] We're very excited to have you with us. We've got lots of lots of things we want to talk about. So, just to kick us off, just tell us a bit about more about the work that you're doing and the the role the work you do with organizations.
(02:12) So, I do a lot of um consulting work. I started as a as a you know a trainer a genuine trainer but I think I always used the kind of evidence-based the science-based approach that I'd picked up through my universities and studies and just my complete interest in the brain. So I do consulting I run uh learning impact audits.
(02:32) I advise on you know how how best to get the most from the learning that happens. I still train people. I love training people. Um I coach individuals. I coach sort of, you know, executives in organizations to to think about how they can get better impact. Um, and yeah, and I do keynotes to kind of inspire, awaken awareness, um, and nudge people perhaps to to dive in deeper.
(02:56) Just to take us back to first principles, neuroscience is a word that's mentioned a lot and a lot of people talk about it. Can we just define it for people so that we're all kind of starting from the same page in terms of what we mean by neuroscience? Yeah. So, I have quite a broad definition for neuroscience.
(03:10) Um, scientifically it really is the kind of the physiology of how our brains, you know, fit together and work. But my my just definition is broader. So that includes, you know, the physiology definitely very important, but also cognitive psychology, organizational psychology, you know, the whole psychology field, the psychology of learning, the science of learning.
(03:29) Um and also because you know even though a even though now AI is super popular, AI has been around for a long time and AI as a part of learning connected to learning has been around for a long time. AI has influenced learning science, learning science has influenced AI.
(03:47) So you know that's also an important part of it and then you know and then the tech comes in. But it that it's really, you know, the science of how people learn effectively. And why why should leaders and organizations pay attention to neuroscience if they're not already, how can it help them? What what's the benefit? Because if you're trying to train people, if you're trying to change behaviors, if you're trying to change processes, you know, whatever you're trying to change in an organization, you are asking people to
(04:10) change, you know, what's going on in here and their bodies. You know, our brains and bodies are intimately connected. If you're trying to change that, it really helps if you know something about it. I'd never suggest anybody, you know, needs to become a neuroscientist themselves. But just having some basic understanding of neuroplasticity, the time it takes for learning, uh, the processes that have to take place in terms of, you know, how people actually go from knowing nothing to knowing something to being able to do
(04:38) things because that's what we really need people to be able to do in the in in the work context. So I think that's that's the kind of yeah the context of it. Yeah. And I think just to signpost people to your book. It's well worth a read if you're interested in that. Um I've read it normally I read paper copies with lots of post-it notes.
(04:54) I've read this on my Kindle, so I can't show you the all the highlights. I mean go through it, but there's so much in it that that's worth getting into the hands of I think I was actually really pleased recently. Somebody had read it and and kind of wrote to me saying they'd read it.
(05:06) And what they said they really liked was that I'd kind of employed my own principles to try and make the book as accessible as it can be. Yeah, it's very accessible. I've said to Garren, it's not one of those where you you sit there and go, "This is really hard work." It's not. It's really accessible.
(05:20) So, and as part of that, you you've talked about the gear model that you've developed. So, can you just take us through what that is and how how that's useful? So, the gear model is a learning methodology. It's a way of, you know, beginning to design and deliver and think about learning.
(05:35) Um, and it starts with and if you if you imagine what you've got to imagine is you've got four gears, four cogs and between those cogs winds a sort of a thread and at the end of that thread is a little rocket. And the rocket is about learning transfer. That's about making sure that's the impact.
(05:53) That's where you want people to be, that they're flying in their jobs, in their careers, in their roles, you know, with these new skills that they've mastered. This line that runs through it is motivation. Because if we don't have people motivated to learn, it doesn't matter how fantastic the training is, it doesn't matter how much money you throw at it, nothing matters.
(06:11) If they're not motivated, they don't know why they need to learn, not very much is going to happen. So this motivation needs to happen throughout a learning journey. So, it's all about learning taking place over over time. And there are times in a in a learning journey where, you know, it's a bit tough. You you're not getting it right.
(06:27) You're failing. You you've practiced and you're still not, you know, you still feel you're not there because, you know, mastering a a skill or even mastering knowledge is is not a, you know, it's not a one-off event. It's not a magic wand. You can just wave and think, "Hurrah, we've learned.
(06:40) " So, you've got the rocket, you've got the the line that runs through it, the thread, and then you've got the cogs that connect together. And the first one is guide. So, G for guide. And that's about the information or the experience or the something you need to kick off your learning and that needs to be structured and well organized and accessible for people and preferably connect to something they already know because we know from learning science that you know working from where you are is much easier than starting from something
(07:08) completely new. So that guide part is about making sure that you've designed stuff and you've given people the opportunity to get to grips with something at a you know the right level for where they are um and that it's scaffolded structured and and and you know not cognitively overloading for instance and then you've got the E which is the experiment and the experiment is when people they've got some information they've had an experience and they want to continue and they've now got to start
(07:34) thinking okay well I don't want to you know I don't want to press that button in in the real world yet I I don't want to have that conversation with my real manager yet, but actually maybe I do want to practice because you know that practice but still within that safe environment.
(07:47) I want to just see what happens if I do this or if I do that. So it's that experimental phase which you know very often it can be a workshop. It can be um in the technical world it can be uh you know sandbox environment. It can be it can be roleplay with it can be roleplay with AI you know that's a fantastic way to test things out these days.
(08:06) Could be all sorts of things but you're experimenting. And then you've got the apply part and that's the scary part. That's the bit where you have to go back into the workplace or you may still be in the workplace. You're in the workplace and you actually start applying it. You start implementing what you've learned.
(08:20) And from that you need to make sure you reflect on it yourself. You need to get plenty of feedback to see you know how am I progressing? How am I doing? And you know the more feedback you can get the better. Um so that application piece and that's the bit that organizations are often challenged with. you know, busy managers.
(08:38) We know Laura Overson's just published a really good article about, you know, the role managers play. We know managers or immediate supervisors play a really strong role. So, you need to have them involved in that, too. Because if you get back from learning something and your immediate organizational support person is just like, "Yeah, well, that that's just something, you know, that that was you went on a course for that.
(08:57) You know, we we're just going to carry on doing it normally here." That's really really demoralizing and and doesn't help people. So the application piece hugely important and then you've got the retain which kind of has to also run through it but just for the purpose of making it easier to remember the retain is how do you make sure you maintain this knowledge new knowledge and new skills for the long term because our brains are designed to forget or they evolved to forget. They're not you know because
(09:21) learning is actually very um energy consumptive on our brains. Our brains are more inclined to forget that you know if I don't need to know this I won't remember it. So it's how you make sure that you make sure that people remember the key knowledge and the key skills and that's about things like space practice space repetition um interle and things like that to make sure that people actually retain the the knowledge and skills.
(09:46) Can you okay I've got lots of questions can tell the questions you've got. Yeah. Well, it's really interesting what you're saying because you can as you're sort of laying out that model. You you like I'm starting rolling like because we see a lot of training that's delivered in organizations and there is an incredible amount that's invested in the world in training and development.
(10:06) Like even if you just take leadership for example, there's billions. It's a billion dollar billions of dollars of industry. But you can already start to if you don't apply those principles, it just doesn't work does it? So an example that we see quite a lot is because we do lots of work with organizations about ways of working and effectiveness.
(10:22) So a lot of organizations invest in things like crucial conversations training which in theory they're brilliant courses. They're really well designed but when you ask is it actually having an impact? Are people actually having those conversations and they're not but they really enjoyed the training? Yeah.
(10:37) Yeah. And enjoyable enjoyable training is you know it's a joy. It's lovely, but it has no there's no no evidence that it has any impact on whether people make the change because it's not the training is important. If you enjoy the training, you're more likely to apply something in the workplace.
(10:55) But if you don't get the support to do it, so I talked about transfer and there are three, you know, there's a lot of things that impact transfer, but there are three main pillars. One is that the learner, I've talked about motivation, has to want to apply that stuff at work. And something like crucial conversations, that's a scary thing to do because crucial conversations are seen as something that you know the conversations that you have to have that are hard.
(11:18) Actually, the crucial conversations are the easy ones you have first that help you build the skills that then make it okay that I'm so good at having conversations I can even have the more challenging ones. So, um, so the learner motivation that's hugely important. Then the design of the program itself has to be far more than enjoyable.
(11:37) It has to help people take, you know, it has to be performance focused. It has to be helping people take those skills and use them in the workplace. And then the other piece is the organizational support is everybody around you, you know, helping you have that organizational support. A really good example of this and it was a kind of crucial conversations um piece of training I did with a company once and they were very open to, you know, we know we've done lots of training before and we know it's not stuck.
(12:04) So, how are we going to help each other? have these conversations and it was around resilience and it was kind of commenting when they thought people were feeling not resilient when they thought they were feeling and and you know that's a difficult conversation to have but crucial and somebody in the group I I asked openly in the group how are we going to make sure you sustain this commitment to have these conversations and they said we have to have some kind of a symbol so that you can ask somebody a conversation you can ask somebody if
(12:31) they're okay but you've got to have a sort of a symbol that you're I'm genuinely asking here. I'm not just asking in a kind of general way, though I'm genuinely wanting. And we came up with the idea of Snickers bars. I have no idea why, but they then realized that if you went up to somebody and you had a Snickers bar, you either wanted to talk to them seriously about something or you genuinely, you know, were concerned about them in some way and would, you know, this was not just a a light
(12:57) conversation. and they had a big bowl of Snickers in the um the reception area so that anyone and and it really worked because it became a metaphor for those conversations. Simple, a simple thing, but it was it was an organizational between them. They they decided that's what they wanted to do and it worked and tasty and it was tasty as well.
(13:17) And it gives you that little bit boost of glucose before you go into that difficult conversation to help you have it. Brilliant. you're touching on loads of really interesting things here which is like you know the first thing you talked about is motivation and I guess what I was thinking there is like who's responsible for the motivation there because uh sometimes training and learning is is top down like this is what we believe is the capability we need to develop in this organization and then you've got intrinsic motivation so
(13:43) it's like what do I need to further my career or whatever it is to be the best in my role h what does motivation look like and and how do you build that motivation or is it just is It's either it's either there or it's not. So only an individual can build their own motivation.
(13:59) You can't motivate somebody else. You can put things in place that will help them feel motivated. And you've got intrinsic motivation which is you know I want to do this for me for you know a reason I have extrinsic motivation is the kind of the reward piece and that's what companies can do. They can reward people for doing things.
(14:15) But if people cannot see the connection between the training and their current role or maybe their future role or you know it may be something it you know sometimes people see a connection in training that is actually this isn't going to really help me in my job but this is going to be super helpful at home you know even that can work but you have to tap into that and I think a lot of organizations a they talk about training with the wrong language so for instance this is one I've been talking to people
(14:44) about recently psychology ological safety. You know, a fascinating concept, marvelous, really interesting. But if you're an engineer, you know, working on a plant somewhere, you don't care about psychological safety. What what's that to me? I really don't care about that. But if you talk to the engineer in terms of, you know, do you sometimes struggle to get your colleagues to help you with something or do you sometimes feel you can't trust them or they can't trust you? Then they go, yeah, I would
(15:09) actually like some help with that. But you don't start with the psychological safety. So I think that's one of the things that organizations do. We we talk in terms of you know L & D words or psychology words that that aren't relevant to the people we're talking to. And then I think you know the idea that everybody wants to learn the same thing, do the same thing is is not true.
(15:29) You know people are motivated by very different things. So, it's it's about tapping into their motivation and helping them see how that whatever it is they're doing. And and I think one of the big challenges, yes, you had those courses that are aimed at helping you motivate, but how much training is compliance, mandatory, they make no effort to motivate people at all.
(15:49) It's just the only motivation is you must do this. And and that gives other training a bad name. We we have a running joke on this podcast. my my partner who works at the NHS and she has to do compliance training and I see her down there. She's not learning. Nobody's learning. Nobody's learning. They're just they they've just, you know, worked out how to pass the tickbox test.
(16:14) And it's pointless because the point of mandatory or point of that kind of safety training and things like that, it should save a life or it should stop your company from being, you know, taken to court or something. It's stuff that really matters, but we do it in the most dry, dull, and you must do it. And there's, you know, here's a whole pile of processes and procedures.
(16:34) And procedures are important. You know, they they matter. If you if you push the wrong button or pull the wrong lever, that matters, but if we just make it so boring that people just disengage from it, you may as well not do it. And and the second thread you got there, which is the E, which is experiment.
(16:51) I'm intrigued to sort of see that. Um I think what's really interesting there is organizations have got a bit stuck in what I call the knowledge trap. They've got stuck in this idea that people need to have information and people do need information clearly but you know there's just this massive overwhelm of information and not enough in the next part and experiment is some an area where people do often get support.
(17:15) you know, workshops and things do help with that, but it's it's this kind of being stuck in the content piece, the the knowledge piece. And you hear people talk about content and knowledge all the time, and they're useful, but they're only the start of the process. Yeah. And my sense of that is potentially it's getting worse with things like chat GPT because it's it's much easier to create content and create knowledge and you know, if you were creating yourself, it might be quite short and then you evolve
(17:39) chat GPT and it turns out this, you know, excess of stuff. Yeah. So my sense is things are getting you know there's potentially a danger we go more there is a huge huge worrying potential for that indeed. Yeah. Yeah. And you and you touched on something which is which is important that that you know not all things that training gives you or learning gives you is equal is it and doesn't require the same method.
(17:59) So you talked about skills and knowledge are two and require two different approaches. I think even skills have to start with knowledge. you know, if you're going to learn how to how to buckle your shoe, um, you know, or or learn how to, um, implement something at work, use a new process, or learn to communicate more effectively, it's still useful to have some information at the start, but that information may not be written information, but it's still useful to see, oh, I've seen somebody else do that, or I've experienced that
(18:29) where I couldn't do it, and I wanted to be able to do it. So you still need that knowledge piece I think but it's not necessarily information that you necessarily need to retain in your head and and you talk about because there's a lot of myths that surround neuroscience aren't you and listening to to you and some of the and reading the book as well.
(18:50) So so some interesting things actually things like learning by wrote is actually can be quite effective can't it for a particular way of working. So the sometimes we we forget the fundamentals don't we? Yeah, I can still mostly do my, you know, multiplication tables because I learned them by wrote. They're just in there. Yeah.
(19:05) Are there any other sort of myths or misconceptions about like neuroscience or or learn that you often encounter? There are quite a lot. Um, but what's really interesting? So, I have been asking the question, what do you know about your brain for 25 years? And when I used to ask it 25 years ago, I got a lot of myths and I was constantly myth busting.
(19:28) Now people know a lot more than they used to which is really you know gratifying. I think people, you know, they they've kind of understood that uh a, you know, they understand that neuroplasticity happens, that our brains can change, which we used to think they couldn't. Madness, but we used to think they couldn't.
(19:43) Things like the myth of, you know, you only use 10% of your brain. That's still that still comes up sometimes. And I just say, well, you're okay then if I remove the other 90%, you don't mind? Ones like that. I think the ones that are still quite prevalent are the kind of the left and right brain. You're a leftrain person or a right brain person. No, you're not.
(20:00) Use both sides of your brain. Again, if if you're left brain, did I take out the right? Do you mind? Yes, of course you do. So, there are there are still some myths about and I think what you just said there are sort of myth, you know, about the repetition thing. There are myths that have kind of come off from the myths.
(20:16) So, you know, what what was a myth and then somebody tries to explain it has then become well well, no, that's a myth. But absolutely, repetition is a good way to learn something that you just need to be able to recall it like that. Context really matters, doesn't it, for these things? Context is vital. Yes, context is really, really important.
(20:34) What's the context of what I'm learning, why I'm learning it, where I'm learning it, how I'm learning it. I guess the other thing, you know, if you're in the learning industry for any period of time is the offs, you know, things that come out, it's like, oh, we've got to do this and and some come and go and some stick because there is some substance behind it.
(20:54) How does someone who's in that industry, you know, really interrogate the evidence or understand that what they're doing is is actually genuine or is actually a fad. So, I think that comes down to professionalism. And I think as learning professionals, it is our duty to understand the evidence, the evidence base and how to get evidence and how to challenge evidence.
(21:18) So I think you know adopting that kind of scientific mindset and you don't necessarily need to be a scientist but adopting that scientific mindset of you know I'm going to check when I hear something. What's the evidence behind this? What's the evidence? You know where did it come from? Who's saying this? Uh for how long have they been saying it? Is this just a fad? Is it something that's going to go? What are they saying about it? Are they saying it's a magic bullet and it will absolutely, you know, fix everything?
(21:43) kind of if it is then it's probably a fad or at least you know overhyped. Is there some genuine research behind and even research you know you still have to challenge research and sort of find out you know was it was it double blind tested has it been replicated there's lots of questions and you know there's lots of stuff around in psychology at the moment about it's quite hard to replicate psychology studies but you still have to try you still have to think well what can we measure what can
(22:08) we experiment with what can we take from from this so I think the the fatty thing and you're right it is a real thing in Ellen they love bright shiny things I mean use your common sense. You know, that seems a very oldfashioned thing to say, but you know, sometimes just is this really, you know, I think few years ago, um, microlearning was absolutely a thing.
(22:28) I remember everything was going to be on your mobile phone. Well, at at the time, not even everybody had a mobile phone. I mean, this was quite some time ago now. Um, so I think it's, you know, there are horses for courses and I think it's, you know, this thing is going to be really useful here and this is how we make that work, but it's not going to fix every single problem.
(22:47) And with this in mind, asking for a friend? Um, is unlearning a thing? Because a lot of people are sort of talking about that, which is like, you know, you need to unlearn and sometimes it can be like a term that kind of it describes a process in a very cackhanded way. Yeah. What's your thoughts on that? So, the evidence is you can't really unlearn.
(23:08) It's not a thing. So, let my friend know. It's a it's a it's a topic that people talk about and I know what they mean. You know, you have to relearn or learn something new or as I said before, build on the learning you already have to, you know, learn how a new way to do this thing.
(23:27) But the evidence is that once those neural connections, so if you learned it properly in the first place and you've got those neural connections, those neural connections always persist. They're always there. They will weaken. And if you really learn something that replaces that behavior, then you can you can you can make that new behavior the stronger one, the one you will more likely turn to.
(23:49) But you know under circumstances of stress or if you go back into the environment where the other thing was the thing you did environment is hugely important for our responses to the environment our behavioral response. So that behavior will always be there. So you can't really unlearn something. It's it'll always be there.
(24:07) You can forget things you know things can be forgotten but most things unless you've got uh you know genuine damage to your brain in some way they're still there. It's just you've you've kind of lost access to them. And sometimes that access comes back for all sorts of different you know go into the the same environment and that access will will come back again.
(24:25) So just again another thing that's discussed a lot in organizations which I think would again just to get your perspective on it is sort of intergenerational stuff that you know sometimes we often do this generation is in that way and sometimes there are sort of stereotypes which are developed which is you know they're they're just that way.
(24:45) What's your experience? Does learning need to be specifically designed around the generations or is it again a little bit lazy shorthand? I think it's a lazy shortorthhand and I think the evidence is there isn't a great deal of difference between gen X and J gen Gen Y and Gen Z and you know whatever I am baby boomers again it depends what you're learning.
(25:03) It depends why you're learning it. Um and it depends on the the context to come back to the context again of of of what's happening. So I mean you know it is it is definitely the case that the young you know the the the generation younger than or multiple generations younger than me you know are using different tools to do learning.
(25:22) They access Tik Tok they access YouTube to do things but that doesn't mean that I can't do that. I do regularly look at I'm not I've not addicted myself to Tik Tok yet but you know I regularly look at YouTube to help me do things because it's a really useful tool. Um, and I think because and I think what's changing is is for instance, you know, our ability to pay attention to things.
(25:43) We're more distracted by things now, but that's not just young people who are more distracted. We're all more distracted because there are more distractions in the world. So, I think the yeah, they have to do this differently for different people is a myth. I mean I think that the neurodeiversity thing that's a different thing altogether and I think that is import that is really important to pay attention to because most neurodiversity sits on a spectrum of of normal or not normal and if you can design and deliver something that
(26:12) appeals to a neurodeiverse audience you're actually helping everybody. So, a colleague of mine who's who's had has ADHD, she said, "We're like the canaries in the in the mine. You know, we detect these things and they affect us strongly, but actually everybody is impacted by it.
(26:29) " So, you know, if you're writing if your if your text, for instance, is suitable for somebody with dyslexia, it actually makes it easier for read for everybody. It's just that they were more disadvantaged by it in the first place. I think it's very my son has ADHD so I've learned so much in terms of guiding him through his revision and helping him work through that.
(26:48) You then find it's applicable the same techniques are applicable to people who aren't neurodyiverse and don't have ADHD but you know struggle with procrastination or it's just an extreme form. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. I feel like we should run a special episode on dopamine. Oh, that is a whole subject. And again, it's misdefined and people Yes.
(27:06) describing it either positively or negatively, but the definitionitions aren't crisp enough, are they? No. No. And dopamine has so many multiple impacts on our brain and body in so many different ways. Yes. I mean, it's called the reward, you know. It's always called the neuro the reward neurotransmitter, isn't it? But it does more than that.
(27:25) I mean basically you know people who have Parkinson's disease cannot initiate movement because of a lack of dopamine. So it's it's motivation but it's the motivation to actually physically move as well as as well as other things. So yes, it's a very very complex neurotransmitter. Hi, we're just pausing this interview for a moment.
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(28:18) live live to get the latest from pod to practice in your inbox and let us know what you think. We'd love to get your feedback. Question we'd love to ask you is, you know, what was your journey into neuroscience? Like how did you sort of discover it and how did you sort of develop until you were a leading voice in the area? So I was always interested in I was always interested in people and I I kind of was always interested in science.
(28:39) So even at school I was really interested in in the science and I liked the biology biological sciences. I I loved biology at school. I thought it was really fascinating. I can still remember how I, you know, revised my digestion by thinking about how one digests things, you know, as you went through the day. And then when I went to university, I studied a psychology degree that was a psych uh science-based psychology degree.
(28:59) And I was very lucky that we had a very strong neuroscience team in there and they were really looking at, you know, how brains work. One of the things we did look at was um dopamine and Parkinson's disease. So we were looking at that through through animal models. So I just got really interested in how the brain works. Um when I left university, I got a job in IT.
(29:20) Um so I was spending less time actually, you know, actively studying it, but I would just still keep reading and finding out because it was just a something I found utterly and it because it's always changing and evolving, you know, I just kept up to date with it. And then when I kind of went into the training world, it just made complete.
(29:40) I I was starting to hear some of the myths and I kept thinking, but that clearly can't be true because my psychology my the science part of my psychology is saying that's that's rubbish. That's silly. So I began to get more interested in that. And and like I say, I define neuroscience quite broadly.
(29:57) Um so yeah, it's just been and and it's for me it's always about the practical application. It's not just learning about the brain for the sake of learning about the brain. It's learning about it well how does this what does this mean in terms of what we actually do to help people learn better. Going on that practical application question I had you talked earlier about the the role of managers in helping people of creating that context where people people can apply what they're learning.
(30:18) So if there's somebody listening who's about to you know potentially invest in training or development for their people their team sending on a training course what can they do practically as a manager to create the context? what advice would you give on that? So have a conversation with them first about you know what what the manager thinks the training can do and coach them to see what they think the training will do.
(30:41) So if they if the manager has decided that they need the training or the person has come to them that's going to be a different coaching kind of question. Um so yeah coach them into into helping them find their purpose and then you know whatever that training might be you know check in how are you getting on how is that impacting have you got a goal for this training you know and and actually really making sure that by the time they get back well I mean training is very different now isn't it in the old days it used to be you go away for a
(31:08) 5-day course and then you get back but by the time you're you know you come away out of you know a 1-hour digital session is there an opportunity to apply that a genuine work opportunity to apply that in the workplace and that manager can support that which means it's you know it's work for managers but for managers there's a benefit because you're going to get people if if you support them to do this you're going to get people you can delegate to you're going to get people who you can rely on
(31:33) to do the job if you don't support it you you don't know whether you can do that and you're then left you know doing all the things and having that kind of oppressive feeling of like I've got to do everything because my people aren't good enough I'm not saying all managers say that but you know there's that kind that's the the extreme.
(31:49) So yes, so support them as they're going through. Make sure there's o real opportunities for them to apply. Um be interested in it yourself. Best of all, get them to teach you what they've learned because that's absolutely the best way for them to start to consolidate that learning. So say, look, you know, actually I'm really interested in what you're learning on this course.
(32:07) You know, explain it to me. Tell me what's happening. Show me what you've been doing. That would be such a useful thing to do. And why don't what you know, do you know what? You've done that. Why don't we share that with the rest of the team? Do you know what? They'll give you half an hour in the next team meeting to share that with the team because that will really focus them on what did I learn, how have I learned it, you know.
(32:24) So I think those are the things practical things that managers can do. And you started your career at a really exciting time in it. What what how did that sort of inform your approach to learning? Well, when I started my L & D career or my IT career, both. Because after I left university, I went and I worked in IT.
(32:45) So I was a programmer, I was a coder, I was an analyst. Oh wow. I was a manager of a you know um a technical team where I used my psychology and I guess I was helping people to learn sort of soft skills just by default. Yeah, totally. And then that's why I'm interested in technology because I've always been interested in technology and I but I only went into technology because at that time in the 1980s there were a lot of technology jobs.
(33:11) So it seemed a good thing to go into and it was kind of a quite a groovy thing at that point. Yeah. And and many people's experience of training of it is not always the best is it in terms of because it is it's one of those things that lends itself to potentially be taught in a dry way, doesn't it? That was exactly why when I I've always had this interest in learning.
(33:30) My family were all teachers and things so I you know I've always had an interest in learning. Um and I had the most terrible training in it. you know, some a really really awful terrible training. And I used to think, well, who would want to be a trainer because this is this must be a horrible job. It's awful.
(33:47) And so I never ever looked at training as a role until I was given this job of IT support and training manager. And I thought, well, I'm not going to do the training bit. I'll just employ somebody. They can do that bit. And I was like trying just to ignore it. And I took on um I took on my first trainer, and this just still makes me laugh. I knew nothing about training.
(34:05) I said, "What do you need?" And he said, "A lect turn, Julie Bought him." He told he he told me that was what he needed. I must admit, I thought not quite how I'd do it, but anyway. And then I took on a second trainer who was just the complete opposite, you know, she was a really facilitative person.
(34:22) She engaged with people. She made it training engaging, fun. And from her, I learned a lot. And then I kind of Yeah. I realized that you and then I I went to um a CIPD conference. I thought, well, I ought to go to a conference and it was just probably just the exhibition actually. And I walked around this exhibition and of course a lot of it was HR at that time and there were a lot of kind of you know people in suits standing on stands and there was a pirate ship and I thought that's really curious.
(34:49) Why is there a pirate ship there? I went up and talked to them and they were finance trainers. They trained finance also equally prone to being very dull and boring but they were doing it using what at the time was called accelerated learning and I thought well if you can do that for finance you can do that with IT so my mission at that point was to transform the IT world and help them deliver better training um that didn't quite happen because big companies like Microsoft and Oracle and things you know they they didn't care they were
(35:17) delivering their training as they always delivered it they may have changed now I don't know but you're right you're right Gavin you know that um that technical training and and technical training is still well even good training I have been on you know I have joined training programs or training events where even interesting topics they've made boring I used to always say there's no such thing as a boring topic there's only boring training and I truly still believe that yeah a question I had for you around the
(35:43) social aspect of learning and how important it is to learn in groups what does neuroscience tell us about that because we do a lot of work um with groups and we see the power of interaction. So just wondering about the the science and the neuroscience of of that. So I think I think there's some really interesting science around that.
(35:59) Some of it is around just you know the human connection. We we are human. We are used to connecting. We like connecting and you know how we connect digitally. You know we're connecting quite well digitally because we're probably all doing it quite regularly. But you still don't connect in quite the same way because you can't touch a person, you can't smell them.
(36:18) You know the visual the visuals are slightly different to how they are in in the real world. So I think there is something genuine about physically being in the same space. Um learning collaboratively collaboratively can be really valuable because you learn from other people. you learn from their you know that's one of the things I'm sure any trainer has seen that you know you get a group of people together and you say why do you want to learn this and they say well I I've got this problem you know it's kind of like
(36:42) I want to solve it and then somebody else says actually I've got that one as well and then that you know just that acknowledgement that oh other people are facing this as well that is really uplifting for people and really heartening and I think that's what collaborative training can do but also in collaborative training you get that ability to to challenge things you know even as the trainer you might say something and and somebody will say but actually that doesn't work in our in our system and then and then that's a really
(37:08) interesting learning point because you can say okay well let's work out together how in your system this does work so I think there's huge benefit in in doing that there are challenges too in terms of you know you get people who need to move faster than the rest of the group or need to move slower than the rest of the group and I think that can be managed um and and you know some people do prefer I think to learn on their own but I think you run the risk of not getting the the broader the sort of serendipitous learning that you get
(37:39) when you're working collaboratively. You have done a lot of things in your career. You've u written books, you've set up labs, you've developed technology, uh you've done a highly successful LinkedIn course as well. What what kind of brings you most joy in your work? Seeing light bulb moments, you know, when when people just kind of go, "Oh, that's really interesting.
(37:59) I think I can use that." And then when they come back later and say, you know, what you taught me in that whatever it was, whether it was a session or a whole program, whatever it might be, what you taught me has has really changed the way I do things and really helped me do things. So is that kind of being helpful? So there's obviously lots of advances happening in in neuroscience all the time, I guess.
(38:17) What's particularly interesting you in the field at the moment? So in the field of neuroscience and and science of of the brain and body, I'm just really interested in the work that's going on that is beginning to show us far better how I mean, you know, it's obviously brain and body are connected, but there's some really interesting stuff going on that really show, you know, how our microbiome, what we eat, that microbiome within us, how that really impacts on our thinking, on our behaviors, you know, even on our behaviors. So I think
(38:48) that's fascinating. So, it's that kind of holistic thing. And I I read a book fairly recently, the extended mind, the power of thinking outside the brain, which I just really loved because it's really talking about, you know, our brains are not just they're not just a thing that lives in a bottle.
(39:03) They're a thing that lives in a physical entity that lives in a world that is a physical entity. And it's about how all that impacts on us and changes how we how we behave and and what we do. And I just think that's yeah very very engaging very interesting. Yeah. And and in the book you talk about how you can stack the odds of probability that you will get high performance from your brain by doing things like exercise for example or good sleep.
(39:29) So because exercise produces a particular thing doesn't it that helps neuro der uh human derived neurotrophic factor. That's it. I didn't even dare. It's like it's like fertilizer for your brain cells and it particularly works on your hippocample brain cells which have a tendency to be able to recreate uh to you know grow new ones.
(39:50) So yeah, if you if you can exercise, then you are supporting your brain to actually grow new memory cells which is really powerful, isn't it? Because I think a lot of managers jobs or it's quite cerebral, isn't it? But the tendency is is the more difficult the problems the more work there is to be done, the more hours we throw out of it.
(40:10) But I guess it's kind of the law of diminishing returns almost, isn't it? Because you're not giving your brain what it needs to actually function well or giving it the space to think as well. And I think the space to think thing is really important because that's about making so when you're I was talking to somebody earlier on today about flow.
(40:25) You know, when you're in that kind of mind where you just you're just really focused and you really, you know, you lose track of everything that's going on around you and you're in it. And that's a very specific state you can get into. But for most of us, when we're concentrating, that's really hard work.
(40:40) And when we're concentrating on something, you know, it's very our our brains become energy deprived. but also you have less access to the rest of your brain. So you've got access to what you're focusing on, but all the rest of your brain, you've stopped kind of sending messages to.
(40:58) Whereas when you take that break, you know, you go for a walk or you, you know, you go and make a coffee and you're just sort of daydreaming or even if you're talking to somebody else, then your brain goes into what's called um default mode. And then when it goes into default mode, it's much more likely to make other connections.
(41:13) So that's why when often you take a break, you come back and you think, "Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that because I've been focusing on this. I'd forgotten about that. That impacts on this." Yeah, that's really important. I need to bring that into into account, which is why you tend to tend to solve difficult business problems in the shower rather than at your desk, isn't it? Yes.
(41:32) Yes. And also, you know, we we spend too much time sitting these days. I mean, you know, I should be standing at my standing desk. Got a standing desk, but you know, it's so easy to sit, isn't it? Interestingly though, if you really do have to think about something difficult, so they've done some really interesting research where they've been giving people um you know math problems and they can give them people can be walking or running and solving math problems.
(41:55) But as soon as the mass problem becomes really complex, they stop because they they really need to put all their energy into their brain and they can't put the energy and the so it's energy and kind of activation attention into the keeping your body moving. So you know sometimes stopping is the right thing to do if you really have to think hard.
(42:16) I have a burning question. If I don't ask this question I'll really regret at the end of it. So you you just touched on it which is the whole art of flow and one of the big things is that you know if you look at people's diary is a disaster isn't it? You look at it there's no space to think it's back to back.
(42:30) One of those things is actually providing that space for flow to be created. That kind of I think Cal Newport would kind of describe as deep work, isn't it? Like kind of what can you do to stack the odds of probability that you can get into that state. What can you do that might enable you to allow your brain to do that kind of work and thinking? So I think identify when when that's most likely to happen for you.
(42:52) For some people that's the morning, for some people that's the afternoon. So identify when that is and then block time. block time to do it, you know, and and then do it and make sure you're not being disturbed. Um, and make sure it's something that you, you know, you can do.
(43:08) So, I think flow has to be something that you you've got a goal, you're capable of achieving it, but it's, you know, it's it's slightly challenging. Um, and that's when you really get into flow, but you know, the you have to stop the distraction, but work out when is your time of day that you're most likely to get into that flow.
(43:24) And I think you were sort of saying because there was one thing you was for example there's a a myth that the elderly's memory produces quite a lot and you were sort of saying that experiments that they were doing the experiments about memory in the afternoon which isn't conducive for peak memory experience whereas the students that were doing it sorry can you tell that story much better than I can so I mean it is true that as you get older your brain definitely changes and your memory is not quite as agile as it
(43:51) was when you were younger. However, um a lot of memory research, a lot of research happens at universities and you know it's it's undergraduates doing research. So undergraduates on the whole, younger people tend to prefer their day to start later and end later too.
(44:11) Older people as you get older you tend to wake up earlier and go to bed earlier. And so you know students were setting up experiments and comparing students and older people but they were doing the experiments in the afternoon. So in the afternoon the older people were just you know just about ready for a little nap.
(44:26) So they weren't performing as well as they might have done whereas the students you know they just had a good long lay in they were fresh and lively. So somebody realized that this was a a pattern and she said okay well let's see what happens if we run these same experiments you know in the morning when these older people are feeling bright and alert and you know they've just been for a walk and feeling great and yes there is still a difference but it's not the kind of the the enormous gap that it appeared to be and I think
(44:51) that's another you know that's just another example of context really that you know what's the context in which you're measuring these things what's the context in which you're exploring these ideas and looking at that and ch And you know that's a really good piece of sort of scientific observation that this particular lady lady had.
(45:09) I've got a question. You mentioned measuring and that made me think. So one of the the challenges that L & D professionals, OD professionals, HR are continually finding is how do we measure the impact that the learning and the development activity we're doing or investing in for our people has? Is there anything neuroscience can tell us about that or any ideas? I'm not sure it's neuroscience.
(45:30) I think it's it's genuine data science and it's it's thinking about what do we want to measure and it's it's starting with the end in mind and the end of training should be that we have you know a group of people who know or can do x y or zed because this is what the business you know we're talking about business training I'm not talking about learning for the sake of just because you love learning but business business learning you know we have to get these people to move from where they are now to where they need to
(45:57) be there's a change a change happening. So what do we want? So we want ex people to have this skill. What does that skill look, sound and feel like? How will they express that skill? What are the behaviors we expect to see? And start with that. So if you know what behaviors you expect to see, then you can assess.
(46:15) So who's already got those behaviors? We don't need to train them. Who hasn't got those behaviors? Are they capable of learning those behaviors? And if they are, then we have to go about, you know, working out how to do it. So it starts for me with, you know, what's your business need? What are the behaviors you're looking for? And we we call those transfer objectives.
(46:35) So what's the objective of of the skills or the knowledge you're trying to transfer? What's the objective? And only then when you've got those really clear and they're really formulated and they're formulated in a really concrete way that everybody can see them. So you can create rubrics so that you know managers can see that, oh yeah, I can see that Danny can do whatever it is I've asked her to do. I can see that.
(46:56) and these are the things I'm expecting to see as she's doing that. So, you know, people say it's hard to measure and it's not necessarily easy and you're looking for data from different data points, but that's that's what you have to have at the beginning. And then if you've got that, then you say, okay, so now we can start to build a a learning journey or an intervention or something that will help us get there.
(47:18) And you know, at what level do we want these people to have these skills? And we're not expect, you know, we can't expect them to have mastery of the skills within two weeks or a month or poss potentially even a year depending on what it is. So, you know, gauging the level you want people to be at and then start measuring it and start assessing all the way along.
(47:36) So, don't just wait until the end and then say, can they do it? But keep assessing all the way along. You know, have they moved from A to B? Have they moved from step one to step two? and use data from different data points because you know we have so much data available to us now and especially you know now that we've got AI you know built into it is being built into everything that can start to track you know we can start to um do sentiment assessments so do people feel conf you know confidence is really
(48:03) important when people are learning skills can we track assess the confidence of how people feel that they're doing with these things so it's about bringing all these different data points together and then you can get to the end and you're never going to be able to say oh yes that was absolutely 100% down to this amazing training course but if you can say well look we can see progress we can see change then and and you know maybe maybe also the CEO changed or a process changed at the same time but at least we can see there
(48:31) has been some progress and we're not just measuring you know did people like it who cares and you know did they complete it who cares which is liberating is it because it doesn't have to be aesthetically pretty for people to learn does Is it? No. And it doesn't need Yeah.
(48:48) It doesn't need You don't You're not trying to get 100% You're not trying to get 100% of people to be all 100% of the same thing. What you're looking for is progress and progress is motivating. So, if you can show learners, look, you've moved, you know, along these steps, then that makes them think, oh, okay, that's good.
(49:03) So, you know, measurement isn't just for the organization. Measurement can really help the learner, too. From your perspective, what can you see that is new in L & D at the moment? So if you're a learning and development manager and you feel that your programs are a little bit stagnant, a little bit stuck, what's coming up over the horizon that could potentially be a gamecher or something that's going to, you know, motivate learners in a new way or new medias? Well, I'm going to say the completely
(49:25) obvious thing which is AI because it's affecting everybody, isn't it? And it's certainly affecting um L & D too. And I think it, you know, it just, you hear people saying we could just throw everything out we've ever done and start from scratch. Now, that's never going to happen, but how can we start to use AI to really support the things that we want people to do? But if you're going to use AI, you've got to be doing the right things in the f the right in the first place. So, if you're really stuck
(49:53) in that knowledge trap and you're just using AI to create more content, you're just you're just making it worse. you're not helping. But if you start to use AI to help you with assess, you know, who who needs to go on this journey, how far do they need to go through this that journey, which bits of the journey they need to do, which bits they not need to do.
(50:15) If you can use the AI to so I said earlier on, I think that I was doing a roleplay recently with AI. It was fantastic. It was really good. I was asking it to help me with listening skills. You know, I told it, you are an listening skills expert. Help me improve my listening skills. Roleplay it with me. It was fabulous. It was really clever and I didn't have to disturb a colleague to do it or anything like that.
(50:36) You know, I think I think there's some real value there in terms of the application bit, the applying it in the workplace. You know, you can use AI to nudge people to remember this is what you're supposed to be doing. Remember, here are the three steps to help you complete this process or the three steps to help you have that conversation.
(50:52) And because we all carry our phones with us all the time, you know, it can it can be really use and it's certainly useful in terms of things like space repetition. So when I first started in training, I I knew about space repetition. I always thought it was really important. So I used to literally at the end of every training program, I would create a set of questions and then I would email them to people at kind of spaced intervals, which I thought was really good, but I had no idea whether they were answering
(51:16) them, whether, you know, I couldn't I couldn't track back. Um, and then when we we got a platform, then it could send them and it could track them, but I was still having to invent the questions. Now you can just say to AI, look, here's the the content from this program. You create the questions and it and it can do it and they're good.
(51:36) Okay, you've got to validate them. You've got to check they're okay, but you know, and you can ask it to create different sorts of question, you know, create scenarios. It's it's fantastic. So I think what we can use AI for is all the bits that a that L & D have found kind of a bit more challenging to do because they're they're not the bits that are in the classroom or the e-learning.
(51:55) They're the bits in the organization, but I think we can really use it to help with those bits. Nothing creates more anxiety in a training room. They're saying to the participants, "Now we'll do a role play." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Horrible, horrible, horrible. Yeah. Yeah. Never say that. No. Um, and just sort of come full circle, you mentioned at the beginning you do like learning audits like what what are those and how do they work and and what's the the benefit for organizations when you go through it? So, it's
(52:21) basically an opportunity to kind of look at what you're currently doing in your with your you know with your learning culture or perhaps with particular programs. Sometimes we we address it from a top level kind of let's have a look at the learning culture and it's basically going in and starting to ask people what do you think about training? what do you you know how do you feel about the learning opportunities you're given and starting to ask them impact questions.
(52:44) So after you did this particular sort of training you know how much of it are you currently actively using? What helped you to actively so you're beginning to tap into you know questions as to what helped you're beginning to get data on are managers supporting or are managers not supporting. you're beginning to get information and data on is the training program itself, how much of that was useful and is actually used and how much of it was just fluff that somebody thought would be useful and and isn't used. And then we're also looking at
(53:12) kind of, you know, the data that's in the organization already. How can we use that to help you to help you start to look at these these transfer objectives? And I think for a lot of organizations just beginning to understand about transfer objectives is a bit of a gamecher in the first place. and then looking at, you know, we we sometimes look at their tech, you know, is the tech supporting supporting an evidence-based approach or is the tech literally just overwhelming you with more content. And so there's lots of
(53:38) it's lots and lots of questions. Um, in terms of impact, it's what organizations do afterwards. And all the ones we've ever worked with have always said, you know, we we've shifted our they haven't shifted their culture immediately, but what we always offer is, you know, here's some first, you know, easy easy quick things you can do that will make a difference.
(54:00) And, you know, that's often things like instead of doing a happy sheet, you can still do the happy sheet if you want. If you just want to get that kind of immediate feedback, it's not a bad thing. But, you know, do a a one month and a two month impact audit questionnaire. Simple, easy. you won't get all the answers back from everybody, but you will get sufficient to tell you whether that course was being helpful.
(54:19) Um, and then we we, you know, we offer kind of longerterm recommendations to actually start to think about, you know, what do you need to do with your learning strategy and we're always trying to shift them towards using a more evidence-based approach. They don't necessarily need to use our gear model, but just start to think about things from a more evidence-based perspective.
(54:37) Clearly, you know, you give so much to others in terms of sharing your expertise and your insights. How do you invest in your own learning? That's a really good question. I was thinking about that earlier on. I do sometimes join learning courses. So, I did a really great uh transfer course with Ena Weinbar Hidel and the Transfer Institute I think they're called a couple of years ago. That was really good.
(54:57) Um this week I started on a AI for women course online course. I do a lot of I do a lot of reading. So I do a huge amount of reading. I go to conferences and things and you always learn new things there. I talk to a lot of people and and I I guess I listen to a lot of people and I think one of the best ways to learn and it's one of the things I suggested you know if you're wanting to help managers is if you have to train something you really have to learn how to do it and how to how to help other people to do it. So I think one of the best ways I've
(55:29) learned is is through training other people. Yeah. Um, one one thing we like to ask, is there a particular resource, a book or a podcast or something else that's had a real impact on you that you'd recommend that others kind of have a look at? There's lots. How many do you want? Well, you can recommend your own book for starters, but Okay. Well, yeah.
(55:47) All right. I'll recommend my book. I think the one that I'm I'm going to choose at the moment because it's super practical and it's this one. Um, what makes training really work? And I just mentioned it, Ena Wineb Hidel. um it's 12 levers of transfer effectiveness and it's just it's again very practical.
(56:03) It's very easy to read. It's very practical and it's and it's evidence-based. It's research based. So I think you know any anybody could read that and I think that helps from a an OD level and an L & D approach. Last question and it's a question we ask all of our guests.
(56:19) What advice would you give someone who's considering a career or venturing into neuroscience? I would say get an evidence base behind you. begin to understand enough of the science of learning, enough of the science of change, of behavior change that you can initiate, that you can challenge, and that you can innovate knowing that, you know, you've got a good evidence base behind you.
(56:43) It doesn't mean you'll get absolutely everything right, but it means that you you're more likely to have the impact that you want to have. Well, I just want to say a huge thank you, Stella. It's been just really insightful. It's been a really lovely conversation. It's there's so many different takeaways um from this as well and I think you've sort of shed a light on a huge area and it would have got people really excited and really hungry to learn more as well.
(57:07) Particularly a really exciting time in the development of both neuroscience and learning and development as well. Um Danny, what do you like to take away from the conversation? Gosh, so much. Um normally I scribble things down as I'm going through that I'm going to mention at the end, but I was so captivated by the conversation.
(57:23) can't do it but but I think things like you know the context being so important and the you know really amplifying the role of manager in ter of helping that learning transfer and I think the gear model I think if people can start looking at that when they're thinking about you know interventions and solutions then that's going to add so much more value if you can you can think about the whole the whole piece rather than just a training course or you know an online learning module um just seeing it in the context of that gear model right yeah and and
(57:48) and all those things that Danny said I One of the things I'm sort of taken away is the need for learning and development teams to really develop the courage to look at their own practice and sort of remove the ego away or how you you know if you're feeling insecure is that we we have to do the right thing for our learners and our organizations and therefore we have a professional duty to take a step back and look at our practice and think about how we can optimize it and people like you Stella are here to guide people on
(58:18) that journey. doesn't have to be scary, does it? It is scary and it's about taking small steps. So yes, you know, you just suggested look at the gear model. That doesn't mean you have to implement every possible thing on that. But if you just to take some steps to to stretch it then you know so so yeah it's about taking small steps.
(58:39) I mean big ambitions but you know take small steps. Thank you. So there's so many things that you're doing that people can sort of follow your work on. Where would you like to sign postpost people because I know the people watching this will have a real thirst to to follow up and read and watch and maybe even contact you as well.
(58:55) What's the best thing for people to do? So, LinkedIn is usually the best place to to find me and I'm Stella Collins on LinkedIn. I'm quite easy to find. So, that's that's easy. Um, I have just started a new uh little website that's more for the um the keynote stuff uh but also the learning impact audits. So, I can send you the link the link for that.
(59:15) Um so yeah those two places are the places to contact me or I'm you know I'm at conferences so I'll be at learning technologies um come and talk to me there. Great. And as part of the research I've watched a lot of your keynotes and they are very very good. So if you do want a compelling speaker please do consider bringing along and it's not just the quality of the keynote it's the the answering of the questions that people are because people have so many personal questions as you can tell from ours we asking for a friend today.
(59:42) It's that you could it's really the ability to really sort of take people's individual context questions as well. So which is really important. So so thank you St. we really appreciate this has really added value to our brilliant portfolio of of guests from around the world as well. So thank you.
(59:56) If you are watching this podcast and you're watching it and you're thinking I really know someone that would really get value from this then please share it with them. We always get amazing stats every week of people sharing this with others. So share it widely to L & D people to neuroscience students to uh learners to managers.
(1:00:15) People will find this really really useful as well. So thank you. But most of all thank you Stella. It's been brilliant. We've loved it. It's been great and we're really happy. So thank you. Thank you both. It's been a real a really lovely afternoon. [Music]