Culture as a Growth Strategy with Tanja Lopez ReMarkable OrgDev Episode 64

What does it take to scale a company without losing its soul? How can you grow an organization without losing the original ingredients that made it so successful in the first place? Our guest today is Tanya Lopez, VP of Strategic Organizational Development at reMarkable. Tanya and her team have played a pivotal role in supporting reMarkable's growth from 120 to 500 employees, shaping, its culture, and ways of working. They leading on strategic initiatives in organization design, leadership development and capability building.

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We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

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Transcript

(00:00) Hi and welcome to the org dev podcast. So what does it take to scale a company without losing its soul? How can you grow an organization without losing the original ingredients that made it so successful in the first place? Our guest today is Tanya Lopez and Tanya is VP of strategic organizational development at remarkable.
(00:20) Tanya and her team that she's built have played a pivotal role in supporting remarkable growth from 120 to 500 employees, shaping its culture and leading its strategic initiatives in organization design, leadership development, and learning strategy. Now, for the uninitiated, Remarkable is a brilliant piece of innovative technology.
(00:39) It's a digital notebook that helps us move from scribbles to screens, and it's a revolutionary way to take in information and organize it as well. Danny, you are a fully signed up fan of Remarkable, aren't you? a fully signed up fan. I I use it all of the time. I think behind my phone and my laptop, this would be the the next thing on my list I replace if I lost it or it broke.
(00:56) I adore it. So, this isn't an infomercial. Just we we love Remarkable and and we would probably say Remarkable is one of the key reasons why the actions we capture for our clients are so good. Tanya is based in Oslo, Norway. And before Remarkable, Tanya gained extensive international experience working in a variety of senior roles.
(01:13) She was senior manager for strategy and consulting for Accenture in Denmark, Finland, Norway, and Sweden. And she's also worked on lots of fascinating projects while being based in Australia. This has included things like leading on implementation of ERP systems, lean processes, merging organizations, and she's even implemented holography as part of an organization design.
(01:33) Naturally, her professional experience is underpinned by extensive academic qualifications, including an MBA from the Norwegian School of Economics. And she's also our first ever lean six sigma black belt. And Tanya is a woman of many talents as even represented her country at basketball. So, so welcome Tanya.
(01:50) It's so nice for you to join us on a on a sunny Friday morning. [Music] Welcome. It's lovely to have you with us. We're we're very excited to have a chat with you. So, just to kick us off, just tell us a bit more about Remarkable and the work that you do. Garren did a bit of an intro, but just if you can just pad that out and flesh that out for us a bit more.
(02:12) So, I started uh in Remarkable in 2020, which was the year that we launched Remarkable 2, which was the first like real product that we wanted to bring out into into the market because the first that was done was more like a a test to see is this something that is of use and and is is there a market out there? So we kind of created this segment in the market and there's been a lot of copying after that but we're very proud of being the first one with this digital notebook.
(02:42) So when I started we were around 100 uh we were based in in uh like a villa place in in in Oslo and all of a sudden we had to be sent on home offices like like everyone else. So in the beginning it my work was a lot to do with just trying to organizing how are we doing this company that's taking off uh from the launch uh and the uh sales numbers were just really doing well uh and the company was growing how to manage that from home offices uh from a company that's really hands-on thrives working together have
(03:17) production in China so just building up the company as we were flying towards the stars and then from there. It's been really about understanding what type of company do we want to build? Who are we? We have a really strong foundation in our purpose in our values. Uh even before I started in 2020, we had defined values and we're really living according to our values which are generous, curious and dedicated, which is an important one for us to have.
(03:49) Um and that has really been the core of the work that we have done within the organization development as well is really ensuring that the way that we built the company uh on these values and and uh on the purpose of bringing better thinking into the world is really a red thread. It's uh who we are and who we are proud to be.
(04:11) People join our company because they really uh believe in in our mission of creative better thinking through technology. There's a lot of focus on technology being uh the evil uh and and this the source of all the problems that people have with focus and concentration. So we want to be like the the um the balancing point of using technology in a good way and and being able to use it in a brain friendly way.
(04:39) And so I think that has really touched a lot of people both customers but also employees wanting to come and work uh for us. So we have people um relocating from all over the world to come to Norway and work with us which is is big honor and and uh makes it really important that the work that we do for our organization and for our people provides a place where people thrive and and grow and develop and then organization development means different things in different organizations.
(05:08) Um is something we've been unpacking. What does it look like in practice at remarkable? What does what's the remarkable organization development? What does it look like? It really took us some time to figure that out and I came in from like the consultant background going okay here's the strategy this is what we want to do and then the capabilities and then we kind of have a plan and they were like well we have we have these ideas of where we want to go we have an overall strategy but we don't really have that level of
(05:33) of detail because things change and and pivoting and we're just working on u moving quick in the market. So trying to understand how like the typical or in my head like a typical understanding of aligning capabilities and resources and and um system towards the strategy had to be aligned more with where we are.
(05:56) I had to realize where is this company what's going on and what can we do with the attention and the opportunity that we have. So instead of being a more like a strategic alignment, it had to be more on do we need now? How can we best support what are the the the fires that are uh the hottest at the moment? Uh and which ones are it's burning, but we can like we can roast a marshmallow, but it's not taking down the house.
(06:24) So it was a bit of a painful experience to kind of like, okay, we can't we can't fix everything. As a consultant, you want to come in and just fix everything. But it had to do more on understanding the need of the company at the moment uh where they were at. Uh how can we then uh find bite-size areas to deliver on? So for learning, we would have small uh lunch trainings so people could spend some time learning but at the same time feel like they didn't take too much time away from from their work. Um we had to
(07:00) be really clear on what was the value that we're adding in and because we work in phases we do three phases a year uh planning it so we knew the involvement that it required from people to spend time on working with us to understand what is the career and development framework that we need um how do we work with engagement so just really creating small pilots and testing it out uh with a few people and we have luckily very engaged people in our company who wants to be part of the things that we do to make this uh organization better. So
(07:39) there's a lot of engagement. So it's it was just about enabling it in their busy schedule um in a way that they could have their input. We would test it out. We would pile it out and this worked, this didn't work. Let's do a retro on it the next phase so we can improve it. So I guess that's where the lin sigma came in uh for me with this whole thinking about trying to figure out what is actually the root problem of why uh things aren't working in a particular area testing it out uh and changing it
(08:12) but being very close to the people who were feeling feeling the pain or didn't have things in place to do their work. And so you you've scaled from like 120 employees to 500. How big's your team? what sort of size team are you working with to support that? So I have uh and I think that's part of the success as well.
(08:33) I have a very uh um competent and and diverse team. So I have one service designer who brings in a lot on like design thinking uh and uh how to uh gather information and use that for uh solutions. I have a process excellence specialist. I have learning and development uh a leadership development specialist and uh uh one more person who is more like a PMO and project specialist and and very analytical and structured.
(09:04) So we bring in different strengths. So there's four uh in my team uh including myself and then we work very closely with our people advisory team uh that are out into the different or uh departments um and collaborate with us and and we do projects together. So we're getting um that reach out into the organization that way.
(09:26) So Tanya with something like remarkable it's a really it's very fast moving isn't it? Because I remember sort of first seeing Remarkable when it was trying to build demand. It was almost was like a wait list that was put out saying this new technology is coming. It's coming in x period of time.
(09:41) I can imagine behind the scenes people are furiously testing it and developing it and all that kind of stuff. So that's really pressure prompted and then it's just like it's it's a race against the market to keep innovating and you're on remarkable 2 now. Is that right? How does how does that impact the way of working within the organization? That constant sense of renewal and and development. Yeah.
(10:01) So we actually launched now paper pro which is the last one. Uh so that's our third model which uh has color and and uh a lot more uh of the services that people have been asking for. Um so it's obviously that's what we're all here to do uh is deliver great products. Uh and that obviously is the focus of uh everyone here that we uh we know the we still have the lead on on the market but people or companies are catching up.
(10:35) Uh which creates a sense of urgency but also excitement around what else can we do because we know we have lots of great talented people who can bring new exciting things into uh into the market. So for us it's really about um enabling our leaders who have grown in the company from the beginning who have this way of thinking about we're an ambitious company maybe a little bit unnewgian in a way to have outspoken uh dreams and and uh big goals uh and but we've proved we can do it and I was just talking to
(11:12) someone external that came in yesterday uh another Norwegian uh company who were proud proud on our behalf. They were proud to be in Norwegian with the success that we had and and that's uh that's very exciting to hear that um it's not just us but but other people in Norway are proud that we are a Norwegian company being able to do these things.
(11:32) So I think it's for us to be able to provide the opportunity for the people who are really wanting to do amazing things uh and achieve new goals uh and create new products that we are doing everything we can to smooth out the the road for them to run as quick as they can.
(11:54) If that means uh like the changes in the organizational structure so they can work a lot more focused on product development. if it is to support these new leaders who have a lot of expertise but have maybe not been leaders of big teams now that we grow to over 500. uh how can we make sure that they know how to be good leaders and that their new employees have a great experience coming in knowing what they have to do uh and see themselves be part of this journey for a long time and and gain skills they wouldn't have gotten anywhere else. So,
(12:29) we're trying to balancing out the practical just getting people to come in and do their work with keeping them their fire still lit on the purpose why we're doing this. It's um it's challenging. Uh it's demanding but it's a lot of fun and we do have a lot of fun.
(12:51) Uh and we succeed and we achieve things. as you've grown so quickly like there's often significant milestones in organization size like 50 dumbbars number that means we have to sort of reorganize 150 is another size that often organizations start to redesign this when you're at 500 and I'm assuming within so within that 500 you've got different professions so you'll have engineers product engineers software engineers different coders all kind of stuff all under one roof sometimes those sort of professions can be quite tribal
(13:19) can't they so how how do You bring them together in an integrated way because the market doesn't care, does it? It just wants its product. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No one cares if you work like in uh uh software or supply chain and you have different things you need to do. It's all coming together.
(13:34) And I think that's what's so much fun about working with organization development in remarkable because we have everything under the same roof um besides production in China. But there is difference need in supply chain and software and design. Um and we're seeing that now that we have grown so much that naturally microcultures are created.
(14:00) Um which is also how it should be because and we like to use the word micro culture not subcultures because that sounds a bit dark something you would do a little bit hidden. So subversive. Yes. So we uh we don't discourage micro culture. It's more about trying to understand how that fits into the big picture.
(14:20) And now with the number that we're are reaching as you're saying there is a a need to look at this one remarkable and kind of reminding ourselves who we are why we are working together particularly now that we have a different organizational structure with uh functional structure. Uh it's not as natural that there is collaboration uh across unless there are specific projects that go across.
(14:47) Um so we're really working now on a culture and what that means and what are these three values for us now. Um how can we see that people are um doing their work according to our values and living up to our values. So we have planned a um a new event that we're having yearly. We're calling it brain summit um to kind of come together and really focus on core areas of uh who we are and the first one will be on culture uh to kind of bring everyone together around it and from there understanding okay so what culture should our area our department
(15:32) have and what does that look like uh as far as our micro cultures being a part of um and being proud of being a part of one remarkable and knowing where we're going and and everyone's part in it. So, it was really at that point now where we needed to really come together um and uh reinforce what it means to be part of this journey.
(15:56) I had a question just going back to that kind of scaling and you talked earlier about all the fires that are there and and it's something a lot of organizations experience everything feels urgent and everything's important. How do you specifically kind of tease out where you focus your efforts with a with a limited team? Have you got any tips and tactics for other people listening going I've just got so many fires I don't know which one to to start with.
(16:18) What we see is it's not necessarily the one that shouts the loudest which is the most important which is uh often the case again with coming from lean six sigma. You really need to try to understand uh the numbers or the performance or whatever lies uh behind it. Obviously for us we don't really have a lot of things being measured but what we've had from the beginning is our engagement surveys.
(16:41) So we had weekly in the beginning when there were not a lot of people um and then we now have monthly pulse surveys that we use to uh identify areas uh which goes more also into the work that each department does. Uh and then we have our yearly engagement survey where we get like the biggest chunk of information from and that's kind of driving the planning of that year um and the areas that we identified as being important and it also helps us in the communication on why are we not close or um taking out some of some of the files
(17:20) that for some people feels really important. So it's also important around the communication and and explaining why we're choosing to this to do this over another area that's also urgent. Um so we use a lot of uh communication and um direction in uh in the work that we do to ensure that people know that we have plans for it but we just haven't gotten there yet.
(17:49) And then with the close collaboration that we have with our people advisors, they're the the people that are really close to what's going on in the organization and helps us guide uh where we uh where we need to focus and where we need to aim our efforts. So um one of the things you talked about was the values and um you talked about the importance of building.
(18:08) Many organizations have values but when it really comes to it, what are the actual real values? Um, and one value that really stood out for me from the three you shared, you shared dedicated, curious, and and generous. Generous is really interesting. I've never seen that as a value. When you came up with generous as the value, what was the ambition for it? And how does it kind of manifest itself when it's when it's people are actually living that in in the field? Yeah.
(18:35) Yeah. I I and I think it's uh the value that I feel is the strongest uh and is the most important one that we have and one that we are really now wanting to ensure that we keep having a focus on it was the the values were created as part of an uh employer branding uh work that was done. So it was really about talking to the people at that time I think there were around 60 70 uh about what it felt like working in in remarkable and from that that was kind of like summed up uh into uh generous being one of the values for me it's it's really about some of the
(19:14) starting ways of working in remarkable this was something new no one had really done it before none of the people involved in the beginning had done it before so you had to have that generosity of helping each other out. It's like I haven't done it before, but I'm sure we can figure it out.
(19:34) And uh if uh you know and understand a little bit better about what we should do, uh you're welcome to contribute in and and help and support and be part of the solution. So it was a lot about the generosity of of um giving a helping hand to someone who was working on something that we were trying to figure out and everyone was in the same place.
(19:57) So there was no feeling of I should know this or I can't admit to that I don't know how to do this. So that which is a dangerous thing isn't it? Yeah. and and it's about um also paying it forward having that generosity around which is also a motivation of doing something for others um and be able to know that someone else will do something for you when you're in a situation where you don't have all the answers.
(20:25) So I think in the beginning being in that situation just created that foundation for having to be generous with each other. uh and there weren't many people so if something was important everyone had to join around it um so I think out of that the generosity value grew and that has become really part of like the values and the DNA and how we do things and how we treat people um that we are very open and generous and and people feel very included.
(20:59) uh it comes across in in our engagement survey as well that inclusion is a high score. People feel like they're part of this even now that we are 500. So it is that collaboration and and wanting to do something together and standing shoulderto-shoulder and solving the big problems. Yeah. And I guess it gets even more important as you get bigger because people get brought in as an even more of a specialist role.
(21:24) You have like someone who's a specialist in tax in Romania and you're like and and that you know that they're coming in for a specific thing, aren't they? And yet generous means support the network, support the community, pay it forward. How do you keep that going and and so vibrant? Yeah.
(21:42) Uh it's a really good question. It's the one that we are looking into now. Hence the the need to look at the culture. What does this look like now that we are experts leading experts a lot more? you're coming in and you have your uh subject matter your area that you are responsible for. So I think it's a a continuous involvement and I think that's why it's so important and I think that's why this is a place where values isn't just something that you present at like the yearly report or uh in some uh presentation where we want
(22:16) to tell the world who we are but don't really feel it. So this has been part of the life in remarkable and it's a fascinating place we're at now defining what does generous mean now that we are a bigger company and we have experts in all areas and we have companies in or office in the UK and in the US what does that look like and and how do we translate that uh maybe bit more of a Norwegian way of doing things and involving everyone and being a bit more collaborative uh than in other c cultures. I'll I'll let you know once
(22:54) we've more into it. We're we're we want you back anyway, Tanya. Cuz it can be quite challenging, can't it? When you start as a small organization and everybody's kind of got their fingers over everything and they're having to turn their hands to everything and then suddenly you've got experts and people need to step back and go actually I'm not going to I'm not going to get involved in that anymore because that's not my area of expertise.
(23:15) But that can be quite challenging for people to make that shift from being on everything. it has been uh really a collaboration or u where it's quite open to people having opinions on what you do like um if I'm working on something uh in the beginning I I found it a little bit challenging that people would comment into my documents on maybe you should do this and maybe I'm like this is my work and I was like oh it's it's really it's coming from a good place and everyone just wants this to be better but it is um it's a different way
(23:48) of opening up for feedback and and collaboration which is I think now what has worked now that we're bigger and um to understand how to give that like still be open for the the engagement of others using the language around I need 20 I'm on 20% I need 20% level feedback versus I'm at 90% so I just need you to kind of like is this the final touch on it, but you can give me very different feedback when I'm on 20.
(24:24) Then you can come with the ideas of have you thought about this or maybe that's the direction or on 50 it's more okay the messaging here is um is where you should be but have you thought about some other uh areas that are not taking you back to start or square one. So we've created a little bit more language around what type of input uh and help do we want in the work that we're doing which I think it's it's helping uh framing this involvement uh a lot better and and you don't feel like someone's giving you an
(24:59) idea of direction when you're actually just asking about does is there any spelling check. Yeah, you can see Danny and I just written that down. Genius. But but you touched on a really important there because it was that the just the very simple thought process that you went through there and this is where often where organizations fall down isn't it which is misreading someone's intent.
(25:22) So it's very easy when someone is in your area and domain and you know we we often feel sometimes a little protective maybe we feel a little bit insecure or maybe you know we're just finding our way whatever it is it's different for every person but it's how we uh make sense of someone's actions really matters doesn't it? If you've got the culture right, then people will see it with good intent.
(25:42) And then there's things like Hanland's raised where you see negativity in other people's actions. And that's where the walls start to come up, isn't it? So that's why you can never stop working on the culture, can you? We've had someone coming in to talk to us about friendly friction, which is also so uh so important in a a company that needs to be I mean, not just for the product, but the whole company needs to innovate and think new and change quite a lot.
(26:07) you the the most consistent here is change. Things are changing all the time. Um so be able to have that friendly friction and understanding that we are challenging each other because we want to do better. We uh are always striving to do better and it's because we want everyone to be better and grow and develop but takes friction for kind of like the sparks and energy to to create movement.
(26:34) uh and I think that is something that we managed quite well to have the ways of communicating and and and sharing and we have a lot of focus on sharing what we're doing across the whole company and anyone can give input. We had a sustainability night the other day where they showed us what they're doing on sustainability and like if you have any ideas, if you have any thoughts just come, just let us know.
(27:01) So anyone can come and suggest something or ask something and it's really shared openly so that we get that that energy and that movement forward. Hi, we're just pausing this interview for a moment. Have you ever finished an episode of the ordev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points? Us two, so we made one.
(27:23) It's called From Pod to Practice, and each week in our newsletter, we'll share a two-page summary of the latest org dev episode, and it includes key takeaways, a reflection prompt, and one small action you can try. And it's all in a digital format with space at the end to add your own notes and reflections, and it's designed to help you take the learning from the podcast into your day-to-day work.
(27:44) So, to get your copy, just sign up to our next step to better newsletter, the links in the show notes, or you can visit our website at www.distinction.live live to get the latest from pod to practice in your inbox and let us know what you think. We'd love to get your feedback. One question that we're dying to ask because of in the introduction just so many interesting projects you've been involved in and your international experience working in different cultures even now with the market being a melting pot of different people come together.
(28:07) What was your journey into organization development like? What has been sort of the thread through this? Growing up in a consulting environment in in Accenture and being exposed to a lot of different uh industries and and areas, I just loved learning about how things were working in different companies.
(28:29) So uh and that made the move towards uh trying to understand organizations and through lin sigma and that process improvement and then uh it kind of grew more on but how do people actually behave in these changes that we're doing and the new processes and new ways of working. What's the uh motivation and and what's how can we tap into the potential of the people involved in this? uh which then led me to uh pursue coaching uh as um as a profession and through that also getting to know companies that were in the
(29:07) startup area uh and wanted to um make the most out of the the resources they have. Wanted to be be resourceful uh how to do this better, how to build a company, how to get the people to do the right things as they were growing. Um and and for me that's kind of like the definition of organization development is that understanding the improvement of the organizational systems and structure but also connecting it with the human potential and the human growth and and how to make that work and change and improve and just grow. So I think I was
(29:43) doing it for a while but didn't really have the definition of it and then when the opportunity came to kind of really merge my areas of the um uh structural from um consulting the focus on coaching and and human development and the curiosity around how to build a company uh came together in this road and remarkable.
(30:08) It was just like okay now I know why I've been going around just doing all the fun bits because it's actually coming together and it is um organization development as I see it and I as I uh practice it or try to um do the changes uh here in does organization development look different in Norway versus other kind of areas of the world in your view that's a good question uh I would think because Norway is an country is quite quite flat in the organization.
(30:39) I think we have different approach to how to discuss this with top management. I would think like the closeness that we have with the leaders and the mainly the the top leaders might give us more of an opportunity to be heard and and be involved than in more hierarchical and bit more maybe individualist uh countries and and you've spent a lot of formative years at Accenture which is a really fascinating organization doing lots of fascinating projects around the world like no one watches the clock working at Accenture did they like your
(31:18) days go quickly? How has that sort of shaped your approach in terms of sort of how you work and how you approach work and how was that when you started switching from being external to internal as well because that's quite a shift isn't it? I think for me the biggest shift was when after working in Accenture for 12 years and just really loving it.
(31:39) I didn't really have any plans of doing anything else. I learned so much and just the structure the way of of understand going in and understanding a new business uh by asking uh questions and and applying uh methods together with teams that are really good at what they do. I think the shift I had when I was going into coaching was all of a sudden I wasn't expected to have the answers.
(32:04) uh I had to start asking a lot more questions and I couldn't just come into a coaching session with a client and tell him what to do like I had some degree done with um companies and then understanding the importance of the asking questions. So coming into this role bringing in like the good structured way of thinking analytical understanding a business uh understanding how everything works together with the setup in a in a company together with the coaching mindset of asking questions on not just the the personal level but to open up to
(32:43) asking questions on how why do we do things like this in in um in other areas as well. that helped uh when coming across to a um in in-house role. And you had your own sort of coaching practice. It kind of sort of specialized in sort of more of a holistic approach in energy. How how has that informed your practice? Uh being a coach like I said it really understands the the importance of seeing people and understanding that we have different ways of doing things.
(33:16) we have the different strengths that we bring into the work that we do um and that the opportunity for people to develop is so important. So coming into this role with the way that we work uh creating both the understanding and the space for my team to know their strength and use their strength uh and knowing that I will challenge them, I will ask them questions.
(33:47) I will guide them but if they have a way that they think is the right way we would have bit of this friendly friction uh and then agree on okay well this is the right way to go forward and I'll I'll support that but we will kind of get to that through this interaction of of being able to be completely honest and open and have that safety that we can disagree but then challenge each other then to so it's not agree to disagree is like we disagree but we commit so we can't say afterwards well oh I knew that was going to fail
(34:22) just because I kind of okay I just had to agree to disagree so it's more now that okay we disagree we challenged each other but now this is what we're doing so we're all committing to it and moving forward I have a professionally burning question I have to ask um uh obviously we mentioned the fact that you have been involved in hocrisy and you have kind of rolled it out a lot of the people watching this um will be curious about new ways of working, but they may not have come across hocrisy, which is a a
(34:47) really defined way of working, but often misunderstood. How did you get involved in that? And what is hilocracy? I'm gave you four questions at the same time here. What is hocray? How on earth did you get involved in it? And what was it like to actually implement it? I really fell in love with the reinventing organization book by Frederick and Yeah.
(35:09) Yeah. French is terrible. Uh, and it was just like it's it was one of those defining moments realizing you can talk about purpose, bringing your whole self like using love in a language around something that had to do with business. For me, it was just like mind-blowing. Uh, coming from a space where you don't talk about feelings or you can't say I feel like this is what we should do.
(35:35) It's like no, you can't say that. Like I know this is what we should do. So it was such a like I needed to do something with all this and that's when um in the work that I did in uh 50 degrees north a tour operating uh company in the um based in Australia but with offices in Norway and in Canada at that point and they'd grown a lot needed to put some structure in place and I had a great boss who was willing to try out new things and and was very open to it.
(36:08) Um and I think the most important thing was he was willing to step aside and let the organization um set this where you're working which act in a way is not having managers. Um it's about creating teams fluid teams based on your uh both your the role that you have but also other things that you bring into uh to work.
(36:37) So there was was a company at that point where we were 35. So it wasn't a big company but we then talked to everyone and figured out some were very interested in writing but were maybe working with accounting or someone was really uh good at taking pictures but were working more on the customer service side.
(36:57) So we managed to see okay maybe then you should have a role in the marketing grip too. I'm doing this because it's all bubbles. It's not like boxes or structures. this old bubbles um where you you kind of fluidly evolve and it fit this organization quite well because they were growing quite a lot but we're were not very strategic in their growth as of we're growing a bit here and then we see we need to grow a bit here.
(37:25) Um so this fluidity of of um of these bubbles in the teams uh works really well. So by that you could have like a role in the marketing team and then you have a role in the sales team. Uh and then you have uh a very good structure around how does a team work together because it's not just about remove the managers and have fun and just uh you it's quite structured around how the teams work.
(37:52) There's a lot of governance isn't there around it like how meetings are done how you know the struct the process that you follow where decisions are made within the organization and how they're made and all that kind of stuff as well is it's quite clear isn't it how it should be done.
(38:07) Yeah, and that was very important like spending time on understanding the governance of it and uh how you would be able to use these structures in a way that didn't eliminate uh just taking away the manager but it gave opportunities to people who maybe didn't naturally want to have be a manager but have like some people are leaders just in the way that they are and that they got an opportunity then to step up and um and show their value in a different way.
(38:37) So, it was a lot of fun uh setting it up and and identifying it and uh structuring. And then I said like it had to be that the CEO had to say like I step away from being a CEO. I'm going to be part of the bubble system and have roles. I'm really good at the product development, so I'll be part of this.
(39:00) So if he hadn't had that uh not being driven by his ego uh being able to step away from his ego and letting this uh form uh or or take form um I don't think it would have uh been successful and I know they've had some challenges with it and I left after we implemented it and it it takes it takes dedication for it to work but I think it's it's uh there's some really good thoughts behind it. Yeah.
(39:26) Because again, it's it's a lot of it's like a shifted mindset, isn't it? Because it's like, you know, the the traditional career ladder disappears, doesn't it? And you grow in your role, don't you? And add more variety and specialize or whatever it is that you do. And that that really has to be clear with um people during the recruitment process, isn't it? Because you have to attract a certain type of person. Yes. Yeah.
(39:45) Because everyone wants freedom, but no one wants responsibility if you put it like very blunt because everyone thinks that. It's true. because everyone thinks it's great. Yeah, I don't have a boss. I can do whatever. But it requires a lot more from you. The self-management, the understanding of who I am and what am I good at and how do I use that out into the organization and how do I lift the team um as I'm part of it. Yeah.
(40:11) Not everyone would fit into that. Uh so it's important as you said knowing what you what you get yourself into. Yes. So you do lots of things. Which which bits of your role do you really enjoy most? Which bits really kind of spark joy with you? Uh, I love being with my team. I love developing my team.
(40:32) I love um being able to find a way for them to do what they want to do and uh grow in their ears. And I think that's the the coaching part of me. That's like uh I get a kick out of personal and and professional development. Uh and I love when we are able to work together on projects because often time we're we're a small team and we have a lot that we want to do.
(40:59) So often times we would work uh a bit separate where I have one who's working on career development framework and another who's working on leadership development and but when we come together and and work on something uh where we can bring all our strengths together uh that's when the magic happen and that's that's the fun of it.
(41:16) When you do have organizations that grow that quickly, remarkable things happen to the people that are there, don't they? You know, because in a way they you don't you don't necessarily have the vision of how much your role is going to grow and how much responsibility. It must be quite a really nice thing to sort of take a step back and see how much the team have grown and the different challenges they've taken on and they become an asset to the organization because they know how things work, don't
(41:39) they, as well? Yeah. Yeah. And I think in the beginning and I mean still we hire people uh with a potential to be part of something and having that motivation to want to build something together with others uh obviously with the right skills and and and the background. But it was more about we can't promise that what we wrote in the job description will be exactly what you're going to do. That's strange.
(42:09) Uh so you need to be aware of that. But then on the flip side, you would have them people coming in and having great ideas or finding areas where they would go like why don't we work on this because here I see an opportunity and I can use my and then being in a new organization. There's not a lot of legacy and it's not a lot of this is how we've always done things.
(42:33) It's like good, great idea. Maybe we should do that. Run with it. Come and tell me how you're going to do it. let's make sure that we get the right buying and we get the obviously for us it's a lot to do with getting the CEO and the right stakeholders in place because it affects the whole organization and then it creates a lot of opportunities for people to go and go oh I came up with this and I delivered on it I made it happen and uh I can do it again so I think that's the the the beauty of like it's it's hard sometimes to maybe get to
(43:04) that starting point but then you can really run with it. I've got a bonus question for you. You can opt in or opt out of this one. You've got such a interesting background, six sigma implementation, mergers, um obviously a lot of coaching and that as well. Um but you are in a more strategic role now.
(43:22) So you are a little bit further away from the tools. But are there any tools or methods you just really enjoy using uh that you just like, yeah, that's my go-to tool. I don't use it for everything, but when I do, I really enjoy it. Um I mean it's it's a lot of the basic around just at the organization design uh star uh using that more of of a communication cuz sometimes it's hard to communicate the importance of the work that we do particularly how it goes out into the organization of the changes. Okay, we
(43:53) want to do a change in in the structure. Yes, but we have to look at the people practices and the processes and the rewards and how does this link with our capabilities. Oh, okay. I thought we were just moving boxes. No, it's kind of like if we do that, we will skew the stone.
(44:10) We have to align everything again. So we've used that quite a lot just more in the um explanation out into the organization or to the the the top level of why it is important that we spend time on looking at more than just one part of it and when you say star model do you mean is it the galra model is it or correct yeah thank you for besides that um so I think that's one of the things that we've uh used quite a lot and then we use quite a lot of design thinking and facilitation uh in the work that we do just to get everyone together and and working very
(44:45) efficiently on that. Uh and then we have this tool that we use for team building which is also important for us being uh first the matrix organization and now with the different departments to work together which is uh a tool that's developed by the school that I went to in Norway.
(45:09) Um and it's free online and it's called start smart which is a really good tool and it's in English if anyone wants to go and have a look at it. So NH NH is the school and the tool is start smart and it really just gives you everything you need and it's such um a easy way to have good conversations in teams.
(45:34) I'm so surprised of how many teams do not have clear purpose. Why are we a team and what's the different roles which is like the most basic things you would think everyone has in place but tends to be forgotten and this is a great tool to really get people talking about the the team and how we're going to work together which is very practical and hands-on.
(45:57) So we use that in in our teams and has rolled it out into the company. Brilliant. I think everyone watching this will be incredibly grateful that I asked that question because there some really lovely things and you know things like galra even if you don't use it is a really good way of making sense of what is going on because sometimes we just need to label or categorize things don't we to to help give an account of what we're doing.
(46:16) Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a lot of what we do is really just how we communicate. Like I said with this 20, 50, 90 around the feedback, the communications, the words that we use, how we make the the importance of what we do more clear cuz I think sometimes we get lost a little bit.
(46:36) And I think that's something that I had to learn as well, putting the consultant language to the side and just speaking straight like being very clear. This is what we need and this is why we do it and and just get going on it. Um that was a a good lesson. So this is a a fairly big question, but if you look back at your career so far, what what's the biggest lesson you you've learned so far that you take with you? I think it's really meeting meeting people or organization where they're at.
(47:06) not and by being curious and wanting to understand and not having that pride or ego of I'm the expert to come in and or I should show them that I know what I'm talking about, but really going in trying to understand where they're at and starting from there, building things from there.
(47:28) Even if I maybe wanted to create a huge culture project when I arrived 5 years ago and that didn't happen because we weren't ready and now it is because now we've started to sew uh seeds on uh why we need to work on this and why it's important um because we weren't ready. We had to do things where we were at at that point and and now we're at a different point.
(47:50) So now we can uh uh work on things that are important for us here and now. So yeah, just meeting meeting both the organization and people where they're at. And you've had a career of constantly expanding your skills and putting yourself into new and challenging situations. Um, obviously now you're in an organization where growth is all consuming.
(48:09) Do you still find time to invest in your own learning and development? And if so, what kind of things do you do? I love reading. my uh Kindle is packed with all different books on uh behavioral science and and a lot of self-development as well and uh I try to uh be up to speed on on everything that's new that's happening.
(48:32) Um we have actually monthly uh sessions here in remarkable that we call rethink that we bring in new thinkers on areas that are close to our heart on on brain um brain friendly devices and uh and this friendly friction and so it's I get it through work because we need to stay at the forefront but I um I love taking uh courses online and and try to stay up to date on on everything that's going on as much as I can.
(49:04) And you said you love to read. Bonus question. You cannot answer this. Is there a particular book or podcast or or something that sticks with you has kind of been kind of really important in your your career? Yeah, besides the reinventing organization, which is my favorite and and we even got they have like a comic type book of it that we we bought to the organization and everyone had a uh had a read through.
(49:28) They and I love the Bnee Brown books. Dare to lead is a a good book that I reread from time to time. And I think there was a there was a book that was good as a way to understand given that we work very closely with HR and and it's kind of intertwined with strategic HR our area. There was a book called redefining HR by L Smith which was a really good book for me as a nonHR background to really understand and and bring that into the work that we do together with HR that reaches out into the organization that I've uh gone back to several times. And then last
(50:12) question from us and we ask all of our guests the same question because there's a lot of people watching this that are just taking their first steps into organization development or they're frustrated with how things are in the organization. They're looking for another way.
(50:26) What advice would you give to someone who's just at the beginning of their career or considering a career in organization development? I think there's a lot of ways and a lot of different needs uh in this area. uh being able to understand both an organization and the people in it. Uh there are uh opportunities to work together across the different uh departments I think to to understand how people or what the needs they they have and and how the organization works.
(51:00) But I think trying to get some specific uh knowledge on identifying the problem that you're trying to solve and not just uh delivering on tool or a structure. I think in this area you might get frustrated because you're just being told we need a career and development framework just fix it. But actually being able to ask why do we need that? uh what what is it we're trying to solve for and how can what we're trying to solve for how can I be part of identifying it and and helping you understand that this is what you need to
(51:41) have in place and learning more maybe about problem like structure uh how you structure a problem and and how you set up like a project charter just like being very clear on what's the scope that we're doing and what's the actual problem in this and what's out of scope and just a little bit not necessarily knowing uh how to run a project as a project manager, but knowing at least how to set up the beginning uh and having some tools to be able to identify um the boundaries around what you're
(52:18) asked to do would uh be a good help to make this uh work a lot more fun and interesting and and being able to learn more about the organization you're in than just providing them with a tool or a method or something that they're um uh needing in the organization. I love that.
(52:41) Um I think sometimes it can be frustrating for people that are just dying to get in. How do I get into this organization development thing? But if you look around your organization is a laboratory with a with an infinite number of experiments that you can run to to to actually get organization development run. And organization development is a lot about doing the reps, isn't it? Like the first time you do the exercise or try and facilitate something, it's so different when you've done it like 10 or 20 times as well, isn't it? So, it is just getting out and
(53:07) doing it and giving yourself permission and to ask the question because the world is full of unloved career frameworks and behavior frameworks that just just in a drawer somewhere. Yeah. Brilliant. Well, Tanya, I just want to say a huge thank you. Um, this conversation is just the reason why Denny and I have given so much time to breathing life into this podcast because it's just defined everything that we're trying to do with it, which is someone who is actually out in the field creating change, implementing
(53:37) organization development in an uncertain environment, but learning so much, but also most importantly just so generous with your experience and your insights as well. It's been for me, I can't ask talk for you, Denny, but it's been a brilliant conversation. It has an absolute brilliant conversation.
(53:50) People are going to get so much. I think you've just brought to life what what OD is in practice in in in day-to-day life. So, thank you. I think yeah, some of the highlights I think obviously the feedback I think that idea of telling people where you are in terms of percentage done is just a really lovely way of guiding saying I'm 90% done.
(54:08) We're not going back to first principles. Love that. So, I can see people wanting to adopt that. The idea of friendly, the the importance of friendly friction. Um, and I think the point you made about being really intentional about collaboration as you're scaling and kind of recognizing you are putting functions in place and you do need to be intentional about how you bridge that gap and kind of if you can't just leave it and hope it works itself out. You have to be intentional.
(54:31) So yeah, and I think for me like all of those things I I think we've shared is is intensely practical which I think people get loads of value from. And some of the things I really love as well is you talked about micro cultures versus subcultures. That's okay. That's okay. you know, diversity is great, but it's obviously making sure that there's an overarching culture, and that's where, you know, thinking about values like generous, but you can't leave it at that. You've got to keep doing the
(54:55) culture work as well and and how you're still doing that as you've grown exponentially as well. So, it's been brilliant. I've loved it. It's been great. What a great way to spend a Friday morning. Indeed, Tanya, if people want to follow your work or if they just want to sort of, you know, just because the remarkable journey is remarkable, isn't it? What's the best way for people to to do that? Well, we don't we're a bit like we don't really share a lot.
(55:17) So, I when I I I had to ask for permission to do this podcast as well. So, we don't really broadcast a lot around what we do as internal in that company. So, I'm the only place you can find me is on LinkedIn. Brilliant. Well, we'll keep up to date with your posts and everything that goes with it as well. So, so thank you so much, Tanya.
(55:35) You're intensely busy. So, we've taken so much of your time, but I know that the community will really appreciate that. So, thank you. I'm so happy we were able to make this happen and it was a very pleasant a bit nerve-wracking experience, but I thoroughly enjoyed it and I just have to say again I love the work that you do.
(55:54) Uh it was it was really helpful for me as well listening to the podcast and just trying to and really being okay with all there is so many things and cuz I was thinking like am I doing this right and I was like is there a right because this is how we have to do it in our organization. and I don't think we can ever do it textbook right for us.
(56:16) So, it was it was a relief um listening to your podcast and reading the stuff that you do going, "Okay, oh, it's it's actually it's okay. Uh it's it's good enough the work that we do." Brilliant. Yeah, absolutely. We're we're on episode 67 as we're recording this and that's 67 conversations with OD practitioners around the world and there is no one way. Mhm.
(56:35) which is kind of relieving but also ah was my fivestep process. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much D. It's been brilliant. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Have a lovely Friday. Thank you. [Music]