Leadership Culture and the Bias Trap - OrgDev Podcast Episode 60

Bias isn’t just an ethical issue – it’s a business issue. In this episode, we explore how recognising and addressing bias can transform both your organisation’s bottom line and the daily experiences of your people.

Our guest, Chris Garrison, brings deep expertise in workplace culture, behavioural science, and inclusion. She shares practical insights on how organisations can move beyond good intentions to create fairer, more inclusive workplaces where everyone thrives.

Bias costs businesses billions in lost productivity and turnover each year – but its impact runs deeper. From hiring and promotions to everyday team interactions, unchecked bias lowers morale, reduces engagement, and stifles innovation. So, how can organisations tackle it effectively?

Join us for a thought-provoking conversation that goes beyond the basics of unconscious bias training to explore real strategies that drive meaningful change.

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live

We'd love to connect with you on Linked In:
linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
https://www.linkedin.com/in/garinrouch

Transcript

(00:00) hi welcome to the org Dev podcast bias costs businesses billions in Lost productivity and turnover every year but it's impact is just as damaging on an organization and individual level from unfair decisions in hiring and promotions to Everyday team interactions unchecked bias can lower morale reduce engagement and limit innovation in this episode we explore how recognizing and addressing bias can transform not only your organization's bottom line but also the daily experiences of your people join us as we invite the very compelling
(00:32) and insightful Chris Garrison to share her expertise on how to create fairer more inclusive workplaces where everyone thrives now Chris is the founder and director of culture genen an organizational consultancy that helps create high performance workplaces Chris works with clients to identify cultural challenges that are impacting individual and business performance and provid solutions based on theories of change and other evidence-based methodologies now Danny you first came across Chris when she was director and chief Problem
(01:01) Solver for APS intelligence didn't you I did absolutely so APS is a psychological and strategic consultancy we worked alongside the remarkable founder John amichi didn't you I'm privileged to call um a very dear friend as well so brilliant and well we look forward to really exploring your work there as well and from the first time that Danny saw Chris she was really impressed with the way she came across and a really engaging insights and Chris's fascinating career which is involved working on Wall Street as a
(01:29) salesperson and a consultant turned marketeer retail and consumer educator public speaker and now organizational consultant means she brings a richest to a work which spes her brilliant guest for the org Dev podcast so welcome Chris it's lovely to have you join us my pleasure to be here with both of [Music] you so just to kick us off just tell us a bit more about the work that you're doing so the uh the elevator pitch answer to that question is that I look at the kinds of behaviors that people are experiencing in the workplace
(02:06) and how that impacts their ability to perform well at their jobs and I typically focus on people in the most senior leadership positions only because they have a disproportionate responsibility in sort of creating the the tone and the understanding of what an organization's culture is but ultimately everything that I do has a Cascade effect it it could apply equally to the most Junior person in an organization as well as to a board chair or a CEO or anybody in the SE Suite but ultimately it's you know what are the
(02:38) barriers that get in the way of people being able to perform at their best and what can we do to change those behaviors so that people are just able to have a more optimal workplace experience are there particular kind of types of organization sizes sectors you work in or is it a good mix the good news is that what I do is pretty industry agnostic there isn't um there isn't one area that what I do excuse me works for and that's mostly because behaviors are Universal experiences if somebody is experiencing a behavior in Southeast
(03:10) Asia that is causing them to not perform as well as they'd like to it's likely that the exact same behavior is being experienced by somebody in another region in North America or in Europe and it's having the exact same impact so I don't have to be an expert in any one specific industry sector in order to do what I do because my expertise is in the stuff that is impacting people in their day-to-day lives at work and are there common themes that you see in the organizations you're working with common
(03:36) behaviors that are kind of so many yeah um where to start I'd say the biggest ones are that there is still a significant disconnect in the minds of a lot of senior leaders in terms of what is the lived experience that people are having in an organization and so they they rely pretty heavily on things like engagement surveys or surveys to illuminate for them what that experience is but unfortunately they tend to focus on the positive outcomes of those surveys and for me the interesting story is in who's answering in the negative if
(04:13) 30% of your people are saying that they're feeling disengaged why who are they where are they what is it that's creating that sense of disengagement for them and what I think is happening is that there are still a lot of leaders who who are sort of um bolstered by 70% of our people are saying that they're having a great time and then so they they sort of ignore what's happening with the 30% and that's pretty consistent in most organizations that I work in where they just and and it's it
(04:39) isn't because they're bad people and they're not paying attention it's it's more a function of the more senior you become the more disconnected you become from the largest number of people within the organization and so you're relying on other channels of information to help you understand what that experience is because you're not immersed in it yourself at the same time that's a really easy Gap to close what it requires is effort on the part of people in senior leader leadership positions to
(05:06) really understand what that Gap is and what's driving it and then they have to be the ones who are the most vocal about changing the experience for everybody in the organization so that's kind of the first consistency that I see the second consistency that I see is that many many people in management positions get promoted into those roles because of their technical skill and capability and that is commendable and there's lots of people who are amazing and technically skilled at their jobs that is not the
(05:34) same thing as leadership and so they get thrust into these positions where now they're given these responsibilities over people and they have a team of direct reports but they're not really people who have come through any kind of leadership development training or even had the basic amount of help about what what do I do to shift from being this technical expert to now all of a sudden being responsible for managing a team and as a result of that it's where a lot of performance suffers because people
(06:04) wind up reporting to somebody who was just their peer yesterday and now all of a sudden this person is overseeing me but I know because they were my peer that they've never done any leadership development stuff and so it it erods a lot of the good things that that often are created in teams that have good collaboration because you have this absence of people leadership capability especially in firsttime managers or middle managers and when you look at data in things like those engagement surveys that I mentioned earlier a lot of times you're
(06:36) going to see that there is an insufficiency in that leadership capability in people and management positions that is causing that sense of disengagement to happen in the first place and again that is a pretty if if I'm doing a cultural assessment where I'm I'm actually assessing the lived experience of people it's a guarantee and I will tell whoever my my stakeholders are one of the things that's going to emerge from this data is that there is an insufficient leadership capability within management populations
(07:06) happens every single time and then I think the third consistency is there's just not enough psychological safety in workplaces and this perhaps should have been the first thing that I said but you know I didn't write a script for myself for this so just kind of riffing here um psychological safety as as an academic concept has been around since the 1990s so we've known about it for a really long time but it's it's kind of only starting to get some Traction in organizations um and of course what's
(07:33) happening politically in the US means that who knows what's going to happen with that traction it might just grind to a halt but the problem is that there's still a fundamental misunderstanding of what psychological safety is and people think because it has the word psychology in it that it's about mental well-being or something along those lines and it isn't that it is entirely about the kind of environment that exists in an organization and the behavior avors that that are expected and the behaviors that
(08:02) are not tolerated and all of this is for the purpose of driving performance and Innovation and growth and complex problem solving and every other metric that you want to have as a successful business but because there's this misunderstanding of what it means it means it's not embedded in an organization the way that it should be and so people aren't experiencing the value that psychological safety brings in terms of their performance there's there is a defined set of behaviors that exist in psychologically safe
(08:33) organizations we have a standard way of measuring the presence or absence of psychological safety in an organization and yet it only exists in Pockets when it's supposed to mean that if you work in a large organization that has multiple locations and you travel from the London office to an office in Berlin that you should automatically know that the moment that you set foot in that office that you are walking into the same psychologically safe and environment as the office that you came from in London and that doesn't mean
(09:04) that you aren't going to experience challenge or difficulty or have setbacks or be held accountable for things and so this this part of this element of not having enough psychological safety or understanding what psychological safety is is that it's allowed a number of myths to crop up about what it actually means like you can't give me challenging feedback because that makes me feel psychologically unsafe it means that there's an absence of accountability it means that there are no standards it
(09:33) means that we can't have difficult conversations and you can see from that short list of myths that if people believe that that's what it is how that actually can hinder the performance of teams and individuals and organizations as a whole so I think those are the three big consistencies that I see there there's others but I think in every organization that I go into those are those are the three that I almost not almost I always come across those three elements in some degree or another and the good news is that all of them are
(10:03) fairly easy to overcome if the ambition is there which is perhaps the fourth consistency which is there isn't always that ambition which yeah which is a question I was going to ask so psychologically say psychological safety may be a Cy that's more new I it's a relative newer concept for some but things like the quality of leadership and you know your team's being engaged and having POS those things have been around forever they've been perennial issues yeah what is it why AR why aren't
(10:29) organizations getting it what why are they still lagging and not investing and doing the work I think it's a difference between rhetoric and action I think it's easy for people to say we want to have engaged employees and that's you know they often call them employees instead of colleagues and so even the language that we use when we talk about these things can have an impact and again I think it goes back to what I said earlier about when we do an engagement survey more than likely the majority of
(10:55) people in an organization are going to say that they are experiencing some degree of Engagement but there's a difference between being engaged and thriving you can you can feel a sense of engagement at work you know and and some of that could be intrinsic motivation it's because you really like the job that you are doing but that doesn't mean that you're thriving at work because if if you have a manager who every time somebody makes a mistake they just unleash Hellfire on on the team then that means that there's going to be an
(11:26) element of fear that exists that's going to have an impact on your ability to Thrive you can still be engaged because you can put your head down but are you really thriving and so I think when when people look historically at yes we want to have people who are engaged we want to have high performance and teams it's it you still have to look at a granular level to find those leaders that were really creating the kind of stuff that from an academic perspective we didn't put a name on until years or decades
(11:54) later we didn't really understand the mechanisms of bias until Daniel Conan and Amos tersi did their their research starting in the like 60s and early 70s and and then the publication of thinking fast and slow was really groundbreaking and in helping us understand how bias works but it's always existed and so we've always had these things around us when you think about things from an organizational psychology or a sociology standpoint it it we didn't have a way to understand or to name the kinds of
(12:24) experiences that people were having and so we just said we want people to feel engaged but didn't necessarily have the understanding of what is required in order for that engagement to happen what is required to help people feel belonging and then how does that actually translate into their ability to be great at their jobs and of course we've come from I think one of the big challenges is is completely unrelated to what you've asked um in terms of the direct question but I think there's there's a link here which is that when
(12:53) you look at people who are my age I'm in my early 50s now and and and people who are older so people the most senior leaders in organizations from an age demographic perspective they came through leadership that was very very different to what people expect of leaders in organizations today and so they didn't have the best role models to understand the kinds of behaviors that were helping them or hindering them from from being great and because they didn't have these Role Models I what I think is
(13:25) interesting about this this cohort of leaders is that they're in in this position now where they don't have a frame of reference for the behaviors that people wanted but everybody who's more Junior than them is saying we want inclusive leaders we want leaders who create the kind of culture where we can Thrive we want to enable Innovation we want to have collaboration we want to have creative outlets for our work and they're like whoa uh H how do you do that because every boss I ever had skewed towards authoritarianism and
(13:59) wasn't allowed to make mistakes and I just had to keep my head down and I just had to push through it and I had to be resilient which is a totally dysfunctional use of the term resilience by the way um and so they they're the ones that are trying to create this environment that is expected but at the same time all they've ever heard was you better get this right or else oh and by the way we want you to feel engaged at the same time so you're right that all this has been around that none like none
(14:25) of none of the stuff that I talk about in terms of well that behavior is going to helps it's going to enable somebody and that behavior is going to hold somebody back that has always existed as long as we've had bosses and workplaces and teams of people I think the advantage that we have now is that we have a much better understanding of why does engagement matter why does a sense of belonging in matter why does inclusion matter why is cognitive diversity absolutely essential for coming up with new solutions to complex
(14:56) problems um and at the same time we still have this layer of weaponized ignorance where people are like you gotta you got to sell me on this you got to tell me why this stuff matters which absolutely does my head in weaponized ignorance iance in the in the orev dictionary okay brilliant terms with her that's in the top five without a doubt um there's so many things you've just raised there so just just get my knife and fork get stuck into lot I'm really sorry yeah this is all really compelling
(15:27) stuff I guess just just to roll back to one of the first things you said which is when now things like the engagement surveys are done and the engagement survey isn't an end in itself as it yet often it's seen as as that and an example that we had recently where you know they shared their engagement data with this sort of a quite wellknown body and the data just spoke for itself it was shocking it was you know if you had that many customers that they that unhappy people's heads would start to roll and yet this team sort of convinced
(15:59) them between themselves that it was okay and wen't willing to do it obviously there's a role of bias that happens in here so what what what are some of those things that happen that we're all kind of looking at the data but we're choosing to be willfully blind about these things so there's 186 documented kinds of bias that we know about and so many of them come down to some sort sort of core ideas and and one of those core ideas is that anything that is in front of us that that presents us with the
(16:29) idea that somehow we might be wrong or we might be bad people or we might not be doing it right automatically throws up a defense system which we most commonly associate with the fight ORF flight response and it's it is it is that it's just not the kind that makes us feel like we have to run away from something it's the kind that makes us feel like we have to self-preservative getting it all wrong and that I'm a horrible person that I'm a bad leader that only then can you really start to
(17:04) look at what is the story that the data is telling if your interpretation of that data is O Let's just ignore the bad stuff over here and focus on the good stuff it's probably because this bias the sense of self-preservation is kicking in that makes you want to ignore anything that you see as a personal threat and in this case the personal threat that we're talking about is some aspect of your identity or your sense of self and sense of accomplishment so I I can absolutely see how people would just be
(17:34) like ah let's just here's the carpet let's just shove that right under there and pretend it doesn't exist and if we're lucky those people those people will go away um and so there's this this dissonance right so that's that's exactly what cognitive dissonance is it's the understanding that there is a discomfort but a complete willingness to overlook that discomfort his two completely opposing ideas there is trouble happening here that we need to fix I'm the one most responsible for
(18:02) fixing it but it makes me uncomfortable to think about what is required or how it got that way so I'm just going to ignore it and pretend everything is okay um and so that's you know cognitive dissonance is a specific bias but but ultimately it's any one of a number of different things that all come down to the same principle which is I've got to protect myself and the perception that people have of me and in this case my intellectual capability and my leadership it it's a challenging thing
(18:28) to present almost isn't it and making and often uh things like engagement surveys sit with HR and HR are the ones that have to present it how do you sort of make it I you can never make things completely make it safe enough to present data like that where people can actually feel safe enough to start looking into it and maybe understanding that their their ego and their identity isn't at stake here yeah when I do it I just simply say that I say listen I'm I have to present some hard truths to you
(18:55) before I do that it's really important that you understand that this is not condemnation of you as a person or everything that you have done in your role in this organization but I believe that you are people who are committed to improving the experience we're having and the only way we can do that is to understand the experience that they're having now and here's what's in it for you and the moment that you couch things in terms of how are you going to benefit from whatever it is that I'm going to
(19:23) tell you then suddenly it makes the the pill the difficult pill slightly easier to swallow but the worst possible thing is to is to try and sugarcoat it you you just can't you have you the only way pass this through is one of those phrases that applies in this in this situation and at the same time I mentioned earlier that one of the consistencies that I see is is about the ambition piece and and the one the organizations that I that I think are absolutely crushing it when it comes to delivering on their cultural ambition
(19:56) are the ones that are willing to sit there and push through the pain of the data that is presenting this picture that some people are having an unfair experience in an organization and the ones who are the least interested in making any of those changes are the ones who are the most resistant I I actually you know I did a when I was working with John we did a big assessment for a very large well-known organization on a global scale and the chief people officer wanted to argue with me about this statistical validity of the data
(20:31) itself to the point where he even said you know I've got a team of data scientists here if you hand over the raw data I bet we we would come up with very different results and I'm like uh no number one we're not handing you the raw data and number two shouldn't you be more upset about the experience that we're telling you than the statistical reliability of the data itself which we've already shown you to be incredibly statistically reliable and so that you know that one conversation said
(21:00) everything that I needed to know and that came from the chief people officer so that was his defense mechanism throwing up because he's the one who's probably under the most pressure to create an organizational culture that people can thrive in and here I am presenting him with this evidence that suggests that there is a significant number of people in the business who are you know within six months of trying to find another job because that's how miserable they are and so he didn't like hearing that and it's it's not that went
(21:29) in guns blazing and said you're doing a terrible job it's here's the picture that the data is telling us so far and that picture is that you've got pockets of really great things happening but this particular group of people is having a real difficult time and I can tell you lots of things about who they are where they work what role they're in how senior they are how many times they've gone for a promotion how many times they've been promoted what their experience is with their manager and any
(21:53) one of a number of different variables and all he wanted to do was argue with me about the reliability of the I think something really interesting what you said also about the fact that the chief people officer in that scenario the pressure he was feeling culture for the organization's culture and so often we'll talk to HR professionals who feel like the culture sits with them um which is flawed in in my view you know it it's not the responsibility of the HR team even if it's called people and culture
(22:18) team that's a function of the weaponized ignorance in my mind though because if I am the CEO of an organization then I I have the most visible profile and I have huge amounts of pressure you know I'm the face of the company and if if I say we're committed to this we're committed to creating a culture where people can perform at their best because we know how vital that is for our performance as an organization but then turns around and says okay HR it's over to you I just said that on National
(22:51) Television um go and they separate themselves from driving that then it has limited chance of success it's not that it can't succeed but you one of the things that I know I've learned so many important things from John M but one of them was if you have people in the most senior positions in an organization who are willing to hand off responsibility for driving organizational culture to somebody else then that sends a massive dog whistle that who we say we are here does not align with the lived experience
(23:26) that we actually want people to have and the moment you have that disconnect between who we say we are here and how people actually experience the business that is the thing that leads to all the stuff that we heard about the great resignation which is more accurately described as the great rejection um then the number of people who will come into an organization and not stay through their probation period because they're like well this is not the picture that was created for me when I interviewed you know churn and and and it's a
(23:55) mistake for people to think that the only ones who are leaving organization are younger people or more Junior people or low performers they're not there's incredibly capable talented high potential individuals who are looking at a to find a place that aligns with their personal values and doesn't expect them to just turn into an automaton and and have no feelings and no empathy and and you know that's the pathway to burnout uh and we have really good science behind what causes burnout and and it's
(24:28) it's a lot right now there's so many people experiencing it it's it's an alarming uh situation and we we touched on your career in in the introduction but also you sort of made mention of your work with John am Mei what what was your journey into to your role as founder of culture J this might ruin my credibility um so I wanted to be a pediatrician that's specialized in pediatric sports medicine because I played Sports uh most of my life and and found that there was a gap in the market and this happened when I was I don't
(24:58) know maybe 11 or 12 years old cuz I had a pediatrician but I was playing sports I had sports injuries and there was nobody that specialized in pediatric sports injuries and so that was how I started right that I was going to do that and graduated from University and was pretty burned out on the the the just the intensity of of being a Premed major in University so I in I wanted to defer going to medical school and so I went to work at a law firm that specialized in medical malpractice and I was doing medical research um on
(25:30) malpractice cases which was nice and then I wound up at City Bank because you can see the clearly linear track that that put me on uh because I still was not quite ready to go to medical school and and then basically through one of those uh life-changing end severe end to a relationship I wound up having to go back to the east coast of the US where I was from and basically start my life over and wound up in working in uh in a bike store cuz I was really into riding my bike um and that store it was in Princeton New Jersey which was very near
(26:06) to the one of the offices of Bloomberg and so a lot of the customers in the store were people that worked at Bloomberg and somebody said what why don't you why don't you interview there I'm like well I I have a science background not a financial background like no we we hire people from all walks and so I did that and I wound up um becoming an energy Market reporter which sort of I work progressed pretty quickly U Bloomberg was a great Organization for training you to know what you need to know uh and I basically went through a
(26:36) compressed MBA course in in about three months so that I could then become an expert in the energy markets and then I left that stupidly when I was in my early 20s because I really loved riding my bike still and so then I went to work for a cycling company and it was at that time that I met John and John's pathway and mine had a had had a it wasn't quite a VIN diagram but it was as bad as close as two circles could get without overlapping because he went to University at Penn State and I was in high school in northeastern Pennsylvania
(27:11) and it's a small rural mountain Community um and so you pay very close attention to the sports at Penn State because it's kind of like another professional set of sports to follow and so I knew about John he was a year ahead of me in school um I knew about him when he was at Penn State and then followed him in the NBA didn't really have any connection to him other than that until the Olympics in 2012 where he was doing commentary um on one of the basketball games for the BBC and he made I wasn't even paying attention to who
(27:41) was talking all I heard was I don't know how you realize that the entire Spanish team is behind you and it it just caught my attention because it was hysterical you had to see a play for it to make sense and I was like oh my gosh that's Joni um and then I was like that's right he's British I looked him up and I started following him on on Twitter and this is where our stories diverge because in his his version of the story he says I was stalking him not true um but because I was working at this Bike
(28:11) Company he was doing a um a charity bike ride that followed the Olympic uh cycling Road road race route and he was making some very troubling um comments on Twitter about where he was going to get his equipment and he he was threatening to buy cycling clothes on eBay and I was like I've got to stop this and so because I'm a science fiction nerd I posted a message to him using a picture of uh how 9000 from 2001 Space Odyssey just a picture of the red computer eye and I just put under that I can't let
(28:46) you do that John only you know a pretty dieh hard sci-fi nerd would understand that reference and of course he is a dieh hard sci-fi nerd so he did understand the reference and um he got in touch and long story short I helped him out to get some gear for that ride and as a thank you he uh invited me to come down to the uh the NBA game they used to play an NBA game once a year here in London and so I actually met him there for the first time and I don't remember much about that except that we spent like three hours in the same spot
(29:18) and and he would have to go off to do like a photo with somebody or something and then we would just come back and so we just it it was almost like instant friendship at that point um and then my career at the bike company started to become rather disenfranchising and uh so he was going to help me get a job with the NBA which was an absolute dream and then at one point just said you know actually I've changed my mind I think that you should just come work with me and I was like and and you know he had been we'v been
(29:46) soundboarding stuff that he was trying to develop for a while before that happened so it's not like he didn't have some idea of what I could do but the best part about that story is that it is so relevant for what I do now now and I think it's the thing that sort of helped me unlock what my purpose is because in every job that I had in every industry that I had before I would I would have these experiences with people some of which were great and some of which just kept making me scratch my head and like
(30:17) I can't understand um and all that ever did was create questions in my mind about why is this happening how how do I make it change what else can I do to prove myself here why am I not getting a seat at the table why is this person this manager only applying one manager managerial style and not flexing to the different knes of the people I only ever had questions so I had like three decades worth of questions and the best thing about John was that he helped me find the answers to those questions and so what I sort of Spun that into is that
(30:53) you know the reason why I do what I do now is because I don't want people to have answered questions about the the things that they're experiencing in workplaces CU I've been there and I know what it's like to have great leaders and I know what it's like to have leaders that just that make you feel like this is the I I am hurting myself from a well-being standpoint by continuing to expose myself to this environment and now I know what to do about it and so I don't want anybody else to have to
(31:19) experience that if they don't have to and so that was perhaps the the greatest gift that I got from John was that he helped me take what I an absence of understanding like I don't know what I'm good at to helping me understand that my superpower is being able to read an organizational environment like I read a book and I can see the people that are being impacted in good ways and bad ways by the the behaviors that they're experiencing from people and through being a exposed to John and and understanding the evidence-based
(31:51) methodology that he uses I now know how to help people correct those behavioral incivilities that happen and augment ones that we need to amplify I don't know if there was an answer to your question in there oh yeah oh yeah yeah I I guess just pick it up on a couple of strs there so um there's so many people that may have had sort of really challenged careers and they don't know what good looks like and they don't know what a constructive environment looks like what are the kind of cues that you
(32:18) look for that gives you a tell straight away when you read the room and go yeah this is a constructive place to be or this isn't somewhere that you know performance or or individuals can thrive in any meeting setting there's always the same two or three people that talk all the time and you have other people that probably say very little that's one of the biggest Ts for me um and and that it can be a big indicator that there is something impacting the psychological safety of of the the team itself and
(32:47) don't get me wrong this is not about seniority this happens if I'm doing a team session with a seite group you know 8 to 15 of the of the most senior people in organiz a the same thing happens there when you ask Executives to rank their own sense of psychological safety even the most senior people in the room will say that they're they're not feeling optimally psychologically safe so H how who was talking and how frequently they're talking is one of the big Ts that I will look for uh another
(33:19) one is how do more Junior people in the team carry themselves if if they're in the team environment and and this one is you know this one's quite subtle because I I'm really introverted but I'm highly social so I I present myself in a way that I think comes across as being pretty confident plus I'm 6 feet tall which you can't tell here but I I kind of cast a long Shadow if if you know what I mean um and so on the on the outside it can look like I'm quite confident but when I'm interacting with
(33:48) people there will be something about I will augment myself in some way I will edit myself in some way this is a a common concept called code switching um that many black and brown people who might be listening will be like yep I know exactly what that is we will alter ourselves in some way to make the other person feel more comfortable with our presence this is something that disproportionately impacts people in traditionally marginalized communities and so there are very subtle ways that you will see somebody doing that like I
(34:18) will I will shrink myself a little bit if if I'm the tallest person in the room if I go into a meeting room one of the first things I'm doing is checking to see if there's any other women in there and if there aren't then it means I'm probably not going to speak up as much or I'm going to I'm instead of making statements I'm going to ask questions in order to help other people think that it's their genuine idea um and so if I see people doing any of these things that says a lot to me how somebody is
(34:49) addressed when a mistake happens is another big one so if we weaponize mistakes rather than turning them into learning opportunities that is a huge red flag uh and it has far-reaching implications I bet if I asked each of you to tell me a time when uh when somebody really came down harded you on a mistake it probably wasn't something that happened yesterday but you can probably remember something that happened 10 or 15 years ago and you can instantly put yourself back in that moment that is because the way somebody
(35:19) handles a mistake can have absolutely crushing longlasting implications on us and it's it's a straight line to impostor Syndrome from there um and and other forms of self- sabotage so there are things that you can sort of observe and a lot of it is another basic one that maybe not so much now but with this constant ridiculous press to get people back in the office 5 days a week it's we're probably going to start seeing this again who are the people that can't leave until that senior person over
(35:49) there does because if I am seeing to be leaving before that senior person is then somehow I'm not trying hard enough ridiculous I know but this is the whole driver behind getting people back in work is really not about productivity and performance because of the data it's really about the ego of the people who are saying we should get people back into in the office five days a week which is terrible so those are some of the common things that I see and and a lot of it is just what are the you know how are people talking about their
(36:17) experience at work you know what what what is the undertone of the way that they're describing their experience and if I'm doing an assessment then I'll say you know tell me what kinds of things are working well for you here and then I'll say what would make your experience even better and I could have probably written three phds on the answers to that one question alone because the moment you give people an opportunity to say this is what would make my my work life better it just unleashes all of
(36:43) these things and from that there are some very common themes that come out of it one of which I've already mentioned which is I just wish my B my manager had better leadership skills we live in such a rich Daya environment don't we but so many people live on autopilot in organization don't they so often when external people going in you just pick on these things straight away as an external person don't you it's almost like how do you encourage people to take a step outside themselves within their
(37:07) own work environments to understand what is good and what is what what is acceptable what's not that's tough um if I could rephrase the question ever so slightly I can probably give you a better answer and the and I'll explain why so if if we place the burden on the individual to adjust to the environment that they're in then we're getting it wrong so if somebody is going to work and just kind of going through the motions and they're you know they're not sort of stepping outside to to seek ways
(37:36) to collaborate with people they're you know their head down headphones on all the time a lot of that could just be because like me they're an introvert and you know they they they think internally they don't think out loud but if that's happening because they're just trying to get by then we should never place the burden on that individual to adapt to the environment when the problem is the environment itself and so the rephrasing of the question that I might suggest is what do what do we need to understand about the
(38:05) environment that is creating that experience for somebody and that's a probably an easier question to answer because i' I've touched on a lot of it it's you know I would want to understand from them is this just a function of you you know you just work better in isolation um and you'll come with great ideas when we when the time comes or are you suppressing your yourself in some kind of a social way you really would like to get to know your colleagues better but there's something around you
(38:37) that is making you change who you are uh in order to fit in with the environment and this is something that a lot of women will understand anybody who happens to be a black or Asian Heritage colleague probably understands the same idea but so does a a white guy who doesn't like footb football when the the conversation on a Monday morning is is all about football and this is a guy who doesn't watch football how is he supposed to interact in that environment so he's probably the one that's got his
(39:10) head down right and and this is why when we talk about inclusion we we are not just talking about people with protected characteristics inclusion benefits everybody um and for the record I would be the one I would be the woman in the conversation about football which also really throws people off in in lots of ways so yeah I'm always is really cautious about you know what does a what does a person need to do to get through this when the problem is that we shouldn't try and fix the person we should try to fix the environment that
(39:39) being said until the environment gets fixed there has to be some way for somebody to just kind of survive and I suppose the you know there's no perfect way to help somebody do that there's no checklist that you can hand over to somebody but at a minimum what you can do is if if you're experiencing you know fear and anxiety because of behavior try and identify specifically what Behavior it is that is causing that fear and anxiety because you may not be able to stop it but at least you can expect it
(40:10) and that helps to reduce the fight ORF flight response in our brain that makes us feel that fear and anxiety and on the other side we probably all have at least one or two people that we work with that that are sort of the in the Inner Circle of trust if you will you know you there's there's great comfort in being able to share your experiences good and bad with the people who are in that inner circle of trust so continue to rely on them to talk about the experience that you're having because it
(40:36) can feel quite powerless when you're experiencing non-inclusive behaviors and and you just feel like there's nothing that you can do about it um and and there are things that you can do about it if if you don't feel safe enough to have the conversation with the person who is doing that behavior then sometimes Coalition of people is there safety and numbers but also is there somebody at peer level that you do have a better relationship that you can talk to about that but again these are just like short-term fixes when the real
(41:04) problem is how is that behavior acceptable in the first place who is who is enabling that why are we tolerating it and that is never the job of the individual to try and to answer it's it's the job of the organization uh especially people in senior leadership positions what do you enjoy most about the work you do what what brings you real Joy this is weirdly it's when I know that I'm talking to an organization that really wants to do something as John would say it's not just about doing something it's about doing something
(41:33) effective so that to me just means that I number one it gives me a little bit of License to say things that I know are not easy for people to hear because the person on the other side of the conversation is is there with me so the starting point that we're we're we're at is the same um and and that is hugely satisfying for me because you know it's it's it's like you're talk you're talking to the choir essentially and you know that they are really receptive to the ideas that you bring forward to them
(42:07) um they really care about the perspective that you have they rely on the the fact that you are coming at this from an evidence-based position you know my job in that scenario is is to create a psychologically safe engagement for them so that they they can tell me the things that they need to tell me in order for me to do the best job I can for them so that um brings me a huge amount of of Joy the other thing that I I really love about my job is um is really just hearing the experiences that people are having and then being able to
(42:37) say you know if I'm doing an assessment I have to go into a list of questions and I have to be as sort of agnostic about it as I possibly can you know in order to maintain the Integrity of the the data collection you you you have to sort of set your empathy aside in a lot of ways but the moment that that process is finished the look of relief on somebody's face when I say to them listen just so you know you're not the only one experiencing this you you are not in a vacuum here I've Heard lots of
(43:06) similar things from your colleagues and I just want you to know that you know I can guarantee that something's going to change but you may think that this is happening to you and it it is it is something that a lot of people are experiencing that even just that even though I'm kind of delivering bad news in a way it can serve as a bit of a stress reliever for somebody who thinks am I the only one that sees this when they're not and then of course when I when I get feedback about some sort of intervention I've designed where it has
(43:37) really moved the needle for people it has really had the impact that I believe that it was capable of having and it has it has opened up doors for people that is that is the ultimate satisfaction because you want your work to mean something and when I work with when when all the factors are there that contribute to that it just means that I can produce things that I know are going to work and they're going to work because the organization is going to make sure that they do um so that's hugely relieving the problem with our
(44:06) work is it's often it can be very deficit focused can't it because that you're kind of drawn to it so we have to remember it's the process that we find joy in isn't it and it's the winds along the way yeah I mean if it was always just about the outcomes I think I would probably be in a much darker place um and sometimes it is just I really enjoy working with this individual person who's trying to spearhead all this in the organization I have just the most amazing clients with just incredibly
(44:31) talented and capable people who are facing the same kind of frustrations and we we can talk about that together and and even just knowing that they exist and are doing the best they can is is really rewarding but you're absolutely right it's we we sometimes we you know we live in the bad data that's you know I I I want to make sure that I know what's happening to people that's creating the bad stuff and as you know the best line of Pretty Woman is the bad stuff is easier to believe um but it's
(44:58) also where you can make the most difference for people at the same time so one of the questions we wanted to ask is because you know even from the first moment you started working in City Bank like that is a very fast moving organization isn't it and many others the ones you work with in Wall Street whatever people it's very much action orientated to do this work do you need to slow things down for people and if so how do you sort of slow things down to create the space to do this type of work so one of the things I'm not very good
(45:27) at is slowing slowing myself down and and especially when somebody gives me a really good idea I love chasing rabbits down rabbit holes and and and so I will you know I will immediately go thousand miles an hour to try and come up with an answer and you know I've been coached I am a coach and so I see this happening in other people and and I'm able to recognize it in myself as a result and and the lesson that I take away from that is you really do have to meet people and organizations where they are
(45:58) which is not always satisfying right because in our work you know I don't know if you experienced this but I certainly do like the answer is just completely obvious and I know it in the first briefing conversation that I have oh I clearly see what it is that you're trying to achieve here and I have all the answers and then you know you think okay this is going to be easy it just isn't it it's not just you and the other person on the other end of the phone call it is a it's layers of people and
(46:26) you have to sell to the to people who are still trying to do the weaponized ignorance thing and and the ones who need to be convinced why we should be doing this and why should we should be investing in it you you have to come up with all of these things that you know only serve as as additional challenges even though the answer is completely obvious um and that's you know that's been a really really hard lesson for me to learn and one that I probably still struggle to put into practice is meet people where they are so so they're not
(46:57) where they they know they they don't have a good set of organizational values like H how are you act with Integrity how do you even test that right at a minimum they're they're there because they want to do something right they want to improve make make an improvement and they're coming to you because they think that you're the person that is able to help them with that and so that is has helped me to slow down a little bit and and it mean and I that's the more direct answer to your question is I
(47:23) really don't ever have to tell a client to slow down I'm the one that has to slow down because that they're they have so many layers of things a lot of it is bureaucratic layers you know internal politics and things that mean that they can't go fast and they probably have this absolutely terrible narrative about how progress is really slow and we're a super tanker and it takes a long time to and I wish that people stop believing that because we know that change can happen really quickly if people want it
(47:50) to and we've seen lots and lots of examples of how quickly we will make change that has a positive impact overnight but it takes some sort of catalyst event in order to create the motivation and the ambition to do it and so it's for me it's it's about slowing me down it's not about slowing the client down that being said what I find myself having to do more often is trying to be diplomatic about swaying people from a path that they're going down that I know won't work and helping them
(48:24) understand what will so an easy example of that uh is reverse mentoring I uh do not like the idea of reverse mentoring at all because it in most cases it winds up having uh there's more of um an emotional burden on the person who is doing the mentoring who is the more Junior person often the person from from a marginalized community that like they are the ones that are doing most of the heavy lifting and the more senior person is who's supposed to be sponsoring that person and helping them to develop and
(48:57) providing opportunities often doesn't and so it's an imbalanced relationship that I don't think works well and yet I there's a lot of organizations that still are pursuing reverse mentoring programs and I'm not saying that 100% of the time they don't work they just have to be structured in very specific ways you know mentoring and coaching is a contractual relationship um and a lot of times that it is they're not implemented in ways that that maintain the Integrity of that contractual relationship and so
(49:26) I find myself having to do more of that saying I I see what you're trying to achieve here's what I think you should know about that kind of program and from an evidence-based position this is the thing that is much more effective because it's based on actual Behavior change techniques and not satisfying some group of people that says we just need to get some more women up in here if you look back at your career what would some of the kind of two two of the biggest lessons two or three of the biggest lessons you've learned so far
(49:52) that you kind of carry with you and inform the work you do I think the first one is that it would be so much better if when you you come out of school and you get your first job you you're you're tunnel visioned into this is my this is my job and if you happen to be working in in an organization of any particular size there isn't enough that teaches you how to what's the lay of the land what are the unwritten rules how do people get noticed here what kinds of characteristics do people look for when
(50:25) it comes to progression and make no mistake a lot of these things are dysfunctional right because again if you operated in a psychologically safe environment then on day one your manager would be saying here's what you need to know this is a psychologically safe environment here's what that means here's what it doesn't mean we need you to speak up in order to help us come up with whatever it is that we're trying to achieve here and that doesn't happen enough but then also what doesn't happen
(50:51) is here's how pay banding Works here's how you can get access to mentorship opportunities here's how you can get access to coaching or sponsorship here's how you can identify ways that you might want to get into a stretch assignment it's just here's your job description here's this box that you live in and all this other stuff exists in the organization and not enough is done to tell you about those things the good things and the bad things so I think that's one of the biggest lessons that I
(51:19) took away is that you don't learn about that stuff until it's way later in your career um and in fact with one of my clients we're we're developing developing a program where we match them with a senior leader and one of their responsibilities as a senior leader is to say hey do you know how pay banding Works do you know what your pay band is and you know what the next one is above it and so it's it's you know there's there's onboarding processes but then there's onboarding processes are like
(51:43) compliance stuff right it's health and safety it's here's our code of conduct um here's here's what you do if you have have a grievance that you need to file you're going to get paid at the end of every month or the be that's what onboarding is in organiz ations and and none of the onboarding stuff that I've come across does any of that factor in what you need to understand about the organization's culture and I think that would have been such a game Cher for me personally when I was first starting out
(52:11) like if somebody had when I went to work at at Bloomberg if somebody had said to me hey this place is has got all kind you're going to get all the free food that you want you're probably going to gain 15 pounds in the first year that you work here because there's so there's food everywhere and that's amazing but here's what you need to know about how the culture of this organization works and and how you can find your place in it you know if somebody had said that to me I might have stayed for a lot longer
(52:37) than I did so that's one lesson the other lesson is this is another thing that I uh realized after I got to know John a little bit since we both had this this team sports background and believe me I'm not putting myself on the same playing field as John right he was a pro but we both grew up in this in the narrative that look what team sports can teach you and like him I've been on really amazing teams both in in sporting environments and also in workplace environments and you can still be incredibly disappointed in those
(53:12) environments because of the behaviors that you experience so it's it's less about the the participation that is that teaches you the lesson and more about who is creating that environment in which you are participating and so if you if you a great coach like I my eighth grade basketball coach was terrible she hated me because I moved into the area there were three people on the team that were family members of hers I was The Outsider I was six feet tall and I also happened to be pretty good and you'd think that that'd be a
(53:46) good thing right she did not like me um and in US schools set up you know you you you go to junior high school and then you go go to high school after that at at the age of 133 or 14 and the middle school that I was in was next to the high school across the car park so the high school coach would come over and watch the eth grade games because that was the team that he was inheriting the next year and I he came up to me one after one game where I had I had scored you know a lot of points she was on me like the whole game talk about
(54:17) weaponizing mistakes no matter how many points I scored anything that I did wrong that it was just an exponentially larger response to her from her to that and he came up to me after this game and he said listen I just want you to know that I see everything that's happening to you here and you're going to have a very different experience when you come across the parking lot next year I was 13 years old and I remember everything about that interaction I can tell you where my parents were standing I can
(54:44) tell you where he was standing I can tell you how he was standing and I remember the words that he said and that's a number of years ago that I don't really want to admit but let's just say it's several decades ago and so that that it's it's about those individual experiences that you have and sometimes we don't pay enough attention to those good relationships and that means that the bad relationships in those settings often have a disproportionate impact on us and can last a really long time because I
(55:17) remember what my eighth grade coach did to me but as I started to think about that story and how it applies to what I do now I remember remember way more about coach coslet and what he said to me than I did about the name of my eighth grade coach I don't even remember but for a lot of people it's the other way around and so I suppose that I'm not sure that there is a real lesson in that other than pay attention to the relationships that are that are making you feel positive things about the environment that you're in and really
(55:51) pay attention to the relationships that are making you feel the negative things because the more you can understand about why those behaviors are impacting you the more agency you might have over your own response that was a really long second lesson a very worthy lesson as well we'll take that it's so important it's it's also the power of moments as well isn't it and how they can shape lives and even if something really bad happens there's always something that a leader can do to help the person get
(56:19) through that particular experience that they've had as well how do you invest in your own Learning and Development you come across someone who's really well read and really across the the evidence-based and understanding how organizations were how do you keep that learning moving and progressing for you I'm I'm just a nerd I am really curious about everything and I I just get really cranky that I don't have enough time to learn everything about everything um but at the same time I I want to be good at
(56:48) my job I want to be exceptional at my job and so there there comes with that a responsibility to pay attention to what's happening in contemporary Behavioral Science and to really understand what the evidence is telling us and to be able to turn you know really academic sounding language into accessible ideas that people can relate to and and can make sense of and I think that that's probably the thing that that drives my own education about this is that I want to be able to take ideas that people should know but you nobody
(57:23) wants to read a 35 page mic publication on you know the the the minutia of of how a specific behavior impacts one specific aspect of performance I want to read that but I want to read it because I'm guessing that there's something in there that's going to provide value to the person that I am talking to and so I want to be the translator I want to say ah well what all I need you to understand is that I am doing the work of looking at the evidence but I'm doing that so that I can present the information to you in a way that makes
(57:56) sense and that really is a big motivator for me in terms of how I continue to to learn stuff and like my dad I probably you know when I read it's it's mostly non-fiction and so I kind of it's It's not that it's fun sometimes it is like reading Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Conan was not fun I mean that is a that is a labor intensive they quite D Spooks by Daniel conman on that and let me tell you I've done both the book and the audio book and the audio book is not better it is not better I think I have it half
(58:28) listened to on my like my iPhone and now I find that it's great to fall asleep to but there's so much gold in there yeah that if more people knew about it the the world literally would be a better place um and and so I I I use that as sort of the driver behind why I spend time reading more non-fiction instead of diving into the complete collection of murakami because I really like muracami books and all science fiction obviously that's how I that's how I keep myself motivated I think because it's I I see
(59:02) it as a responsibility of my job but but then I I like to learn about stuff that is completely outside of my field like all of my friends know I'm I'm a bird nerd to the point where one of them even got me a t-shirt that says bird nerd and I'm not I'm not a I'm not a twitcher you know I don't I don't have I don't even have a set of binoculars I don't go out into the countryside and Marvel at oh the wagtail but uh because I live in central London but I do have bird feeders that are right outside of
(59:31) this window and the whole time we have been talking here I've had uh Indian ring neck parrots and gold finches and uh at least one blue tit and and so you know I I have this this curiosity that makes me go and learn about stuff that doesn't really apply to to anything and and I think there's a there's a lesson in that too which is that anybody who is a fan of Ted lasso one of the absolute best scenes of what was an incredibly amazing show was the scene where he's playing darts with rert um and he talks
(1:00:05) about the dangers of incuriosity and if only somebody had bothered to ask he would realize that he doesn't he's not actually left-handed and he switches to his right hand and a very similar moment in The Princess Bride by the way um so I I I think that incuriosity has created so many problems that we are now to deal with not just organizationally but also socially uh and I just don't want to be that person I don't ever want to be in Curious maybe a difficult question is there a particular book or podcast you
(1:00:37) recommend is there one that you find yourself recommending to people I'm a really big fan of the pivot podcast which is Caris swier and Scott Galloway um they kind of they kind of come at it from they both have Tech backgrounds uh but they also what they talk about crosses over a lot into the stuff I do because they they will look at you know Mark Zuckerberg's latest behavior and they will talk about the implications that that has on people that work at meta and of course Beyond because of the size of the platform that
(1:01:08) meta has so even though they tend to focus a lot on topics related to technology they they don't limit their conversation to just the the sort of nerdy techy part of it they they will wind up crossing over a lot into um how what are the application of this on on individual people and on organizations so I really like that one there's a guy called W Cal Bell who's based in the US he's got a couple of different kinds of podcasts he's a really great um educator he he talks a lot about the black
(1:01:40) perspective which I really value as well and other than that I don't listen to a lot of podcasts you know a friend put me on to one uh that's Financial because I I need to really get serious about my retirement and so uh I've been listening to that one but yeah I I have to say I want to be person that just consumes podcasts like they're going out of style and I just am not that person and that bothers me you've had such an interesting career today what advice would you give someone who's considering
(1:02:08) or is just beginning a career or an organization development in the field dive into the science Behavioral Science is real there's there's so much to learn about it it helps you understand how you walk through the world in in both a personal and a professional capacity and at the same time comes with a lot of Occupational hazards for example the moment that you start to learn about bias you see it everywhere and it's infuriating um but it's also learning about something like bias just helps make so much sense of things and at
(1:02:46) least I think when you get into the Behavioral Science it it actually almost makes makes it easier for you to manage the array of behaviors that you will see for people it never really produces the sting of bad behavior but at least you can see it for what it is uh and and I think that's again a thing that nobody nobody teaches you about when you first start your professional career is you know if you experience behavior that makes you feel a kind of way and and your Spider Sense starts to tingle don't
(1:03:13) ignore that so I think for anybody that wants to get into this business you've got to you've got to go into it from a Behavioral Science perspective um there are lots of people who label themselves as life coaches and and I'm just not sure I'm just not sure I'm sure that there are there are amazing well-educated evidence grounded life coaches that are out there but I've not met one yet and and having gone through a coaching qualification I know exactly how difficult it is to become a coach
(1:03:45) that and what that involves um and it's all because of the science bit so this is this is a tremendously wonderful profession to be in it is not without its frustration and its pitfalls it is not without its sense that sometimes you're just not being listened to but the things that it can unlock for us as individuals when we learn about these things is you know it's it can be life-changing in terms of your awareness of the world and how to process the world that you live in but then especially when you get when you
(1:04:17) have somebody who values that information to try and make their own workplace better it's hugely hugely rewarding so yeah Behavioral Science and and I mean I've got some I'm a disciple of Susan Miki at UCL she's the she's the the the the woman of Behavioral Science when it comes to behavior change techniques she has a wonderful app that um has all of her categorized Behavior change techniques in it um Amy Edmonson at Harvard Business School is is our our contemporary leader when it comes to
(1:04:47) understanding psychological safety particularly as it applies to workplace settings Adam Grant is pretty much good at whatever he talks about and then of course Daniel Conan is is who I my my absolute go-to for anything relating to bias and then there's a a couple of other people one is Dr Claude steel who wrote a book called whistling Baldi which is all about stereotype bias and stereotype threat which I think should be required reading in schools it's that good it's that accessible and it's that
(1:05:17) profound when you read it and then um his research opened up a lot of doors one of whom was a was another professor by the name of Dr darald Wing Sue who is at Columbia who is the person who has really expanded our understanding of microaggressions and broadened the the array of microaggressions that we know exist in the world um if you if you look up any of those people and that that's an incomplete list of course but that's a really good starting point for anybody that has any interest in doing this this
(1:05:47) sort of organizational consultancy or organizational psychology or wants to have a focus on leadership and leadership development and how organizational cultures work if you if you focused on that list of available resources I think you'd be pretty far on the way to having a good grounding for this line of work brilliant well I just want to say a huge thank you Chris at the beginning I promised that you would be compelling and insightful and you've absolutely fulfilled that promise so thank you um it's been a really really
(1:06:16) engaging conversation um and there's just so much value so much experience you shared and some brilliant references for people to go and pursue as well Danny what's stood out from you from this conversation be a long time but I think going right back to what you said at the beginning about really understanding the difference people being engaged and thriving and you know there's a real differential between that I think you gave some really practical advice particularly about kind of delivering difficult news to leaders and
(1:06:38) how to pitch that and then I think the importance of meeting people in organizations where they are so important in the work that we do one thing that I forgot to mention and I don't know if you can edit this in or something but have you have either of you ever read Gallup state of the global workplace report they produce it every year and it is devast stating I mean it's incredibly beneficial for anybody who is in in the line of organizational consultancy but it is a it is a comprehensive report that is broken down
(1:07:06) region by region and it shows effectively the level of Despair that exists in workplaces around the world it is an it is a rich and comprehensive body of evidence that really showcases just how much work there is to be done to improve the experience that people are having in organizations I I I probably refer to it once a week at least and have only just scratched you know there's so much data in there that you could spend a good two or three days trying to absorb it all but it's incredibly relevant and also shows the
(1:07:39) magnitude of the problem so that's another resource I would recommend gallup's state of the global workplace report it's free Gallup they do lots of really amazing research but that one is every time it comes out I'm just like oh man here we go oh yeah nothing has changed or oh yeah gotten worse and Brilliant and if people want to follow your work or if they they're really curious about the work that you do and they'd like to engage you and discuss the work that you do and potentially
(1:08:08) explore working with you as well what is the best way for people to follow you I've got a shiny website that you can find at culture gen.com um culture genen is an actual word uh it's CU l t r g n doesn't have an e in after culture it's actually a fascinating word so culture jen.
(1:08:29) com is a good place to start so you can sort of see what my portfolio of services are I'm available on LinkedIn I'm not good at it but I at least check for messages or you can just email me on Chris culture.com if you want to have conversation about stuff tell me what you need I'll tell you if I can help if I can't help I'll try and figure out who can brilliant and all of those links and and contact details that Chris has shared are going to be in the show notes whether you're looking watching this on YouTube or whether you're on spr one of
(1:08:56) the audio platforms that'll all be there for you as well Chris I want to say huge thank you it's been really really good it's been such an interesting conversation and I know we've got so much out of it if you're watching this and you know someone who regularly deploys weaponized ignorance in the workplace and you think that they would benefit from learning more about buyers and how they can work with engagement or disengagement with workplace then please share this podcast with them there's no
(1:09:20) better way than actually just delving into it or if you just want to help people understand more about Behavioral Science and everything else that happens in Chris's field please share this um and also if you've liked it please subscribe and like to the channel as well but most importantly thank you so much Chris it's been really really good we've really enjoyed it and we really appreciate all your time as well so thank you loved it thank you for having me thank you [Music] he