Why Your OD Network is a Game-Changer - with Mark Emdin - OrgDev Podcast 57

Leadership is a constant learning journey, and one of the most powerful ways to grow is by being part of a network that both supports and challenges you.

This week on the OrgDev Podcast, we speak with Mark Emdin, board member of ODN Europe and Experienced Organisation Change & Development consultant, about the role professional networks play in shaping how we lead, think, and navigate change.

If you’ve ever found yourself solving tough challenges in isolation then this is definitely worth a watch. 

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That’s why each week in our Next Step to Better newsletter, we’re sharing From Pod to Practice – a 2-page visual summary of each episode designed to help you take the learning from the podcast and into your work.

You’ll get:
■ Key insights from the episode
■ A reflection prompt
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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live

We'd love to connect with you on Linked In:
linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
https://www.linkedin.com/in/garinrouch

Transcript

(00:00) hi and welcome to the org Dev podcast so how do you keep learning and evolving your approach to organization development and change so learning isn't just about courses or reading it happens through conversation shared experiences and being part of a peer Community but both supports and challenges you in this episode we explore the power of professional networks and the critical role they play in our development now we've invited the extremely engaging Mark emden board member of odn Europe to discuss how professional networks shape
(00:29) our thinking deepen our practice and help us navigate the challenges of leading change it's going to be a fascinating conversation because Mark is an accomplished International OD practitioner in his own right so alongside talking about professional networks we'll be deling into his career his approach to OD and what he's learned along the way so Mark along with being a leader of OD and Europe is principal consultant of nexi coaching and consultant he's an OD and leadership team performance specialist and in fact
(00:55) Mark and I first met on the advanced practitioner program for six conditions of an effective team back in 2019 he's worked with senior teams across a diverse range of global companies and enjoyed a long and distinguished career at Shell 19 years I believe in od and org effectiv roles which is fascinating environment his International career starting in Australia and is now based in Europe and has work with teams and in projects across Asia Africa and Central Europe and is's leading the design of the odn Europe conference for 2025 which
(01:24) has just been launched on sale now and is the proud owner of a very cute dog called Sasha so welcome mark thank you so much for making time to us today we're really glad to have you join us Danny Garen thank you so much I'm really delighted to be here and um yeah it's it's always quite I don't know humbling or embarrassing when you hear someone kind of read out your bio think did I really do all of that so thank you for making me sound and look [Music] good it's lovely to have you with us
(01:56) before we get into the odne stuff just tell us a bit about the work you do and your role and your approach to OD um so as you said Garen I had a a long career at Shell it was a bit more than 19 years once I left decided to set up my own practice um focusing on organization development it's primarily around OD um more than the coaching and I find that my work these days is really dominated by a few things so the first is or design there's a lot of change going on transformation going on which needs to
(02:28) be supported by quality or design work um and we can touch on that a bit later team Effectiveness and the two do go together and you know there's a distinction between team building and creating team Effectiveness so the design and Dynamics around uh creating and sustaining High performing teams and then the third is focuses on what I would say is The Human Side of organizations um and I know you've had many speakers on that and kind of trying to trying to Di that up in my work as as well you know there's there's this
(03:03) systems approach we talk about the technical aspect of our work but there's a very strong need for dialogue and Dynamics and that human interaction and try to bring the two of those together in basically everything that I do and do you work with particular types of sectors or size of organizations no across the board CU I I find that the work is industry agnostic I actually sometimes find and if I know too much about an industry or a company it gets in the way of what I'm being brought in or asked to do so I'm not I'm not there
(03:40) to be a subject matter expert I I'm not there to help them Define their strategy it is much more around good OD processes and practices that bring to life or help them have the conversations the dialogue go through the process that will activate and bring that to life I enjoy work the spectrum between kind of large stable organizations and then Dynamic chaotic startups and we can touch on that as well maybe a bit later uh because they are very different and their needs are very different and so one of the challenges is also how do we
(04:14) as OD practitioners serve both and are we equipped to serve both one has lots of money the other one doesn't one needs to move very fast in a pace the other one can afford to perhaps go a little bit more slowly so there's a whole tension there also to be EXP so I tend to work across a range of Industries different Siz companies and it's more about enjoying stepping into different systems that I find fascinating I'd Echo that it's the kind of variety you never quite know what you're going to get and
(04:43) I think the question I think is interesting is is what's the commission so when organizations bring you in what's the starting point because that's always I think really interesting from an OD perspective how do they describe what they want you to do why they're bringing you in is there a kind of consistency across that yeah great question I think if you ask that to different people you'll probably get different answers because I think the reason why they bring someone in or or an organization
(05:08) in is based on the reputation that that individual or organization has so for me it has been very much around leaders or former colleagues who have now moved on into other organizations have approached me because they're experiencing challenges in that team Dynamic space that's kind of what I was known for and I have a strong connection as you mentioned Garen with 16 conditions I know you had Christ on the show a while ago I know Christa really well I know Ruth it very well so that's kind of what I am and have been known
(05:41) for and so I think you that kind of triggers off the commissioning and then it's through the through the inquiry and spending time with individuals that you get a sense of well actually that's a symptom of something else that's going on so let's have a look at that and I think there's also just a piece that goes with running your own business or running your own cons consultancy that ongoing Business Development continuing to have the conversations and reaching out and staying in touch and just
(06:09) finding out from your network what's going on what's keeping them awake at night and there might be something there where you know we can offer either solution help or a referral to someone else who um might be able to uh to fix that problem so that's that's kind of how it I find that it's emerging so you mentioned teams there has been so much research done on teams there's so much we know about performance but still teams although the the major units of getting the work done there still often
(06:38) a cause of so much friction and difficulty in organizations and you talk about one thing there which is like the difference between team building and team design and often the commissioner say oh we need team building yes what why is it that organizations just don't seem to be getting teams right what what are some of the sort of fundamental recurring problems that you see yeah so there there's a couple of things in that let's track back to so when when you ask people about teams and examples of how
(07:05) many high performing teams have you really been on I do this quite a lot at conferences and events when I speak and most people will put their hand up and it'll be five digits or less so very few of us have actually experienced what is it to be on a high performing team so our frame of reference is actually quite weak secondly when you then have people describe give me examples of teams they tend to be sporting teams and orchestras and the like and then if you think about it those teams spend more time actually
(07:37) practicing being teams than performing they spend more time on the soccer pitch practicing playing the game they spend more time in the rehearsal Hall practicing the piece of music more time in the pit changing the tires than they do actually performing and yet in organizations it's completely the other way around we're so focused on performance and delivery that the notion of team and practicing and working on being a team comes second third in order and so we're not only do we have this where individuals are not really clear
(08:11) or don't have a good frame of reference of what good looks like we're not creating the space and the conditions for that success to actually be defined and emerge and there's a third element which is around leadership so we come from a history and tradition of training leaders to be emergent leaders climb through the organization be effective through networking through Charisma and so forth but what isn't necessarily covered in leadership development programs is that notion of what is it to be an effective team leader and shifting
(08:45) that notion of leadership or effective leadership to be my success as a leader is based on the performance of the team that I'm leading and that's what I get rewarded for and so there's a whole lot of things there at the very front end that get in the way of teams then you ask the question about what create some of the friction in teams a lot of it gar is is is partly around lack of clarity and misunderstanding taking the time to really understand and this is the work of the leader this isn't the work of the
(09:10) team those those fundamental questions do I need a team and if I do why which is different from a group you know all teams are groups but not all groups are teams as Christa often says and so what is the work that requires the interdependency which is that fundamental element that separates teams from groups what is the compelling purpose that comes about through this team is it clear is it consequential am I clear on on the skills and the people that I need on the team and then when I've got my team together have we had
(09:44) really good conversations around how we're going to work together in expectations with each other and unless you've had those conversations created those conditions that Ruth Wagman talks a lot about you do get that friction now that's not to say that will kind of lubricate all the cogs and then there'll be no friction in your team but at least you've created those conditions and then you can start having conversations around elements more of the coaching conversations around so how does
(10:14) personality play out how does the use of language play out and so and so forth and so that's kind of that are we creating the foundation through our understanding of teams our training of team leaders are we creating the conditions by which teams are designed and then are we having the conversations that they need in order that they're effective there's so many different things you just mentioned there one of the things that I was just really curious about and because it is almost like uh counterintuitive you talked
(10:39) about practice so you know for some teams there is that action bias and you know sometimes people may think of it as indulgent but but what does practice look like for a team like what is that is it inexpense to take them away for three days and you know do that kind of thing or how what does it look like in particular the most effective practice is reflection so the research does show that teams with a high degree of reflexivity or reflection for outperformed teams that are as you say very much focused on action or have that
(11:11) action bias so that's one element the second element is having establish some really good work practices consciously as opposed to unconsciously falling into ways of doing stuff because that might not be the most effective way of doing it and so the use of visual management for example or how often do you come together as a team when you do come together what are the things that you're going to engage and talk about so that people aren't frustrated and feeling though this is a waste of my time and so th those are all
(11:42) practices that's all investing in you being a team so those Norms those behaviors those ways of working as well as making sure that you've got the resources and the support from the organization to be effective as a team and I think there's another element as well which is if you zoom out how do the teams connect with each other so working just with one team is I would say enjoyable but it has limited impact on organization change perhaps unless it's really the top team of an organization but if you wanting to make changes
(12:16) across an organization at scale you need to be working on multiple teams or working with multiple teams including how do those teams connect and support each other in that change that you're supporting yeah and again I guess you have to be quite intentional about it because it doesn't happen by accident does it and and often when you sort of see people that the engagement data or people's satisfaction data it's often that they feel quite close and loyal to their team colleagues but as soon as
(12:39) they start reporting on their relationships outside of their team then things start to deteriorate quite quickly does that fall under the responsibility of the manager then does it or the or designer or like where does that sit to help short make those bridges get built yeah great question I I think we probably put too we put too much emphasis on trying to build that bridge because at the end of the day that sense of belonging that notion of belonging primarily as you say sits with the team that I'm a part of whether it's
(13:07) the hybrid team or one that I directly report into but it's kind of that team that's where my belonging happens in organizations and so that's where most of my if you think about it motivation will be driven by it's not the leaders who are three four levels up that's where I would focus effort at the same time there needs to be un an understanding of so how does strategy and messages travel down the organization how do you engage the bottom as well um so there's a very strong role there for you know those
(13:39) middle managers who are sometimes undervalued and underrated in organizations to play and that's kind that's one of the areas that I've started to get much more fascinated in or or curious about is the role of the middle manager or particularly the Strategic role of middle managers in affecting organizational change so you've had a really interesting career today what was your journey into organization development and also s working with teams as well so I started my career in in Australia on the
(14:11) graduate program of shell and had a few roles and one of them happened to be graduate Recruitment and that's where I kind of got my toe in when it comes to the HR function and from there it kind of either snowballed or spread out took in took on different HR roles I did try my hand in a marketing position and found I just couldn't get passionate about half a center liter marketing margin fuel being trucked to the middle of nowhere it really was about people and then over over the years moved into what emerged as kind of organization
(14:45) training and development and uh change roles within shell and then finally when I in my my last few roles we had established a very um solid organization development practice you know shell had a heritage of OD in a way a privileged to work in in that organization and so we had this solid OD practice and there I was able to take on roles as OD manager for um our corporate functions and also for um our projects and Technology organization which is really where I got to play and experiment and develop an understanding for kind of
(15:22) systems and and Dynamics and so forth and it was within shell that the work of Ruth and Richard Hackman was was brought in but I must say I've probably learned more about our craft the three of us or development since I left shell and the reason being is that I've had the time and space to explore experiment connect in the areas that didn't need to fit a corporate agenda so there's something about freedom and flexibility that comes with not being in a system doing systemic work but not being in the
(16:00) system and so it's given me time to do a course at ashridge embark on some coaching training have a pile of Journal articles and red pen them all and go oh yeah but what happens if this and this and I connect these together and that's what I've Loved about it and as I say I think it's really in the last few years I've really deepened my appreciation and understanding of OD more then when I was inside the organization that you kind of it's decided for you to a certain extent what tools what methods what practices
(16:31) you'll use I loved the opportunity to experiment when I was working inside shell had some great colleagues I worked with learned a lot many I'm still connected with and I was able to take that experience you know that Frontline experience and now kind of measure it up against the theory the research that I'm able to immerse myself in so we're going to shift gear site because one of the things we wanted to talk to you about was the odn E organization so just tell us a bit more about it for those the
(16:59) audience who don't know what it is so the organization development Network Europe is the peak OD professional body of of practitioners within Europe it's a spin-off of uh OD Network in the US and it does reflect the broad church that is OD you know we have individuals who are very heavily invested in organization design those who are very much into um team performance and Effectiveness leadership development agile program management and so forth but the thing that it has at its heart is it's about
(17:35) bringing together individuals who have a curiosity and have an interest in the the evidence-base the research new theories and practices and at the same time bring those to impact bring those into organizations who have a curiosity of learning from each other from that sense of community and that's why you know I find OD such a such a powerful organization and I think the other thing is again it can the work we do can sometimes be quite lonely even if you sit inside an organization because there's either not that many of us or
(18:12) very few people really understand what OD is and so it's nice to have a place which is you know independent neutral agnostic that you can connect with individuals and be challenged and explore and maybe grab something and then go away and try it and bring back well how did that go um so I I find it I find it a wonderful um a wonderful organization to be a part of and you're a board member at odne OD I am I joined the board last year say what was the motivation behind that what prompted you to kind of go to that level yeah so
(18:49) primarily it was prompted by two things one was to to give back to the profession and particularly to OD I transitioned out of shell into my own practice just before Co was able to go to one of the conferences before Co and then during Co everything went online and it OD and really was a was a was a wonderful space for people to come together and support each other I guess in a way around how to deal with either everything going online um and how do I how do I do OD online for some people it was a bit more dramatic you know they
(19:24) just saw their work completely disappear and were on hold for 2 years so this was a really regenerative Community to help them and I really valued the diversity of people thought ideas language some of which I still don't understand cuz I'm wrapping my head around some of the language that can get in the way of OD but so I wanted to give back the second reason there's an e at the end of OD NE it has a Heritage from the UK um but me sitting in Amsterdam it didn't have a really big footprint and so one of the
(20:02) things I wanted to do and there's more of us now was grow the European aspect of odne and so I'm very active in getting people connected here in the Benelux region we've recently had an event in Madrid in Spain um we're going to be having one in Bucharest coming up I'm in contact with folks in the nordics to try and grow the the reach of odne and the reason being is that you know you talk about OD it's a very angl language based profession when you talk to people in France or Germany or the duck countries
(20:38) what is that they're doing it but it has a different label but it's also being done in a in a slightly different way so there's a there's a a national and cultural language issue there as well as societal influences around how we do work how we do things that I find fascinating and so that's one of the things that we're wanting to explore explor at OD NE as well is it's OD but it's done differently it's labeled differently and we can learn from each other when we start to kind of piggle
(21:06) away some of those uh layers yeah I was going to say are there any particular differences that people would be that have surprised you as you've done that work it's a great question and there is something about hofstead work around hierarchy and the ability to challenge within cultures and organizations and although all kind of cultures have that in some people it it's felt to be easier than in others Dutch hierarchy is very flat and it's it's the ability to to challenge and the needs to have dialogue
(21:38) and build consensus is in the fabric of the Netherlands very similar to Australia where where I grew up but when you start looking at Germany for example and I don't want to play into stereotypes here but it's when you've got some of those cross-cultural groupings those differences can emerge one of those areas we actually want to do some more research on and explore um and Jesse sagas who's on the board with me that's an area that he's he's been looking into as well and there's also a
(22:09) difference in terms of where people lean so the idea of uh constellations is very well known in the Benelux area kind of some of the group dynamics work might be less so in the nordics so also the flavors can be different depending on which part of Europe you're in as you said earlier kind of OD professionals lots of different context you've got internal roles you external you got Academia Consultants what are some of the challenges bringing those diverse groups together because people have got quite strong perspectives and strong
(22:39) views so how does that work when you're facilitating and kind creating those di spaces for dialogues for the dialogue for the profession and find the tension doesn't happen in the room of a event like the conference because there's a reason why people have come together there's a there's a desire to connect and a curiosity that's there I think the tension Danny sometimes exists outside of that room and it can sometimes be in that relationship for example between the internal and the external OD
(23:11) consultant who find that they need to be working together and the Dynamics and the power dynamics that might play there you know there's politics involve you're from inside the organization you're a guest who's got power and all those sorts of things perhaps sometimes those that are more academically bent struggle to either convey the value in a very practical way that can be applied into an organization I've sometimes seen those who are internal Consultants they've got the pressure of the
(23:43) organization on their shoulders now they're the ones really holding the weight we come in to help but we we don't hold the weight on our shoulders and there's a pressure on them them to be moving at speed Garen you know you said earlier that action bias and so there's that tension between needing to slow things down sometimes and needing to go fast and if you've got those who are trying to describe complex System Dynamics no just give me the answer those tensions can get messy and so forth and and in a way that's what makes
(24:16) makes OD quite exciting in a way when you you start to have those conversations in the small groups and in the breakouts how do you how do you make it happen how do you bring it to life how do you deal with the the challenges and the barriers and what is the value of evidence-based OD when we need to be delivering and turning around our business and I find those fascinating conversations I think internal external thinks really fascinating is that sense of frustration sometimes from internal practitioners but when somebody external
(24:48) comes in they've got more of a mandate or they listened to in a different way and the internal practitioners I've been saying this or I've been talking about this for a long time there's been no no interest no track you bring in somebody outside who says the same thing and it's it lands differently and it gets taken more seriously you're spot on you know and I experienced that and was a recipient of that when I was an internal consultant so it it's real it happens and you've been given the task of
(25:15) actually designing the 2025 conference which is a huge responsibility but I imagine it's quite an exciting thing to do as well what what's been your process in terms of the theme that you wanted to focus on and the outcomes you wanted to achieve and putting together such a because we've looked at the list of speakers that you got and it's a really fascinating list of people that are both internal and external and bring a lot of different disciplines together so we started with um a theme and I was
(25:41) intentional on the theme to kind of shift some of the thinking around OD so from insight to impact now there's the risk when you're a professional body like ours that we focus on the Insight piece what's the new research of the latest book the newest model and Theory but it is actually about the impact that we have in the workplaces that we go in and do our work so uh from insight to impact and you need both and again you you'll see on the speaker list we've got shashana coming to do a wonderful
(26:11) Learning Journey on polarities and talking to her and and when I was listening to Tracy and Michelle just that as a title is a polarity insight and impact and so and then from there it was getting that mix of speakers who are external and internal and can talk about how has OD helped or got in the way of doing the work that's being asked of us in organizations and I must say it's it's been refreshingly surprisingly easy to get speakers because people love talking about what we're working on or what they're
(26:49) researching and have some really good individuals who also see this as a way of kind of giving back to the profession as well so given that we're we're in Brussels May 21st to 23rd I want to make sure that we have you know a good collection of speakers who represent the continent we'll be in the UK every second year you know at the moment that is our heritage but when we are on the continent we want to make sure we're showcasing and and bringing good uh good speakers from uh from the region and for
(27:18) those who are interested all of the details for the odn conference are going to be in the show notes but Mark I'm sure you'll sort of say if people want to reach out to and ask questions about the conference and you're happy to sort of take messages for people absolutely you can connect uh with me via LinkedIn so so just shifting gears um one of the things we love to ask people about are tools or methods that you enjoy using as well one of the things that you just really stand out for is the amount of
(27:42) curiosity you have and the amount you invest in your own personal development as well you have an interest in improvisation now in the in the 57 or 60 episodes we we've never talked to anyone who practices improvisation what part does that play in your your role and and how did you come about it and you know what's the learning involved and what's the impact that it has a lot good it's the simplest way to put it the Danny did I read that you were you were on the board of a scout organization Scout I am I am yeah
(28:15) b a chair of a trustee board for a local Scout group okay answer to your question so Garen for me um improvisation plays plays a huge role and I'll come back to it why in a moment you also asked the question about learning and development and and training the training I did in improvisation has probably been the single most effective training I've had when it comes to needing to engage with a group because at the end of the day you can have a plan but you don't know what's going to happen and so you need
(28:45) to be kind of light on your feet and be able to hold that plan lightly and that's basically what improv is and way back when I was a kid I was involved in scouting and was involved in gang shows and I can't believe I'm sharing this on a on a podcast this is a sharing podcast it's a sharing podcast huge in the UK the gang shows and the world of Ralph R and so it was theater and that's where I got involved in both first of all theater and then improvisation and if you really think about it there is an
(29:13) element of theater to the work that we do that's a bit undervalued and focusing on improv there's a great book by an improviser and an author Robert poon it's called everything's an offer there's many great books on it but and what I like about it is when when he talks about the improvisor mindset it's three things first of all Let Go secondly notice more and thirdly use everything and so if you think about it we need to let go when we step into the room or we're building an intervention
(29:46) of our own biases and preconceived ideas even the plan that we have because we're not sure what's going to happen when we bring this group of individuals together so there's something about letting go notice more really plays to the wisdom is in the room there are things there are artifacts there are dynamics there are systems within systems playing out that if noticed can really help in the work that we're doing and help the group if you shine the light on them and actually make those visible to the group and the
(30:22) last one is to use everything everything that a group generally needs to work through a challenge or an OB I is there within them if they're willing to harness and use those and so having that as a mindset is actually really powerful I wrote a Blog blog post on this where I linked improvisation with psychological safety and Amy Edmonson picked it up and you can see the spike in my visits to my website it's never been the same since but there's something about it because one of the other things about improv is
(30:54) your job is to make your teammates look good and feel fabulous so you don't allow anybody to die on stage unless that's part of the scene and so you step in you support each other um the other thing is we fail and when we fail we fail fabulously and we learn from those mistakes and so that's you know there's a there's a whole raft of ways that I find improv to be incredibly powerful and useful in the work that we do and when I work with groups and teams I quite often share with them that improv
(31:26) mindset let go notice more use everything and have them think about those six words if you were to apply those to the context that we're operating in today or the challenge that has brought you together how might that help you and that really starts to unlock some of the self-imposed barriers that uh that people bring in and I'm also an adrenaline junkie so you know you're stepping on a stage and you got no idea what's going to happen and it's it's wonderful again it's the nature of
(31:55) the work that we do I think that could be a mantra for life couldn't it and and I guess cuz there are it's interesting being a facilitator in a room particularly because you're in the domain of change and transformation and it's the emerging property of what's in that room on that day so you can do one Activity one day with one group and it's just it's just a normal kind of activity and other days things just happen and I love what you're saying in terms of being light on your feet because if you
(32:18) are you do try and plan the day and your timings are tight but you have to have that freedom to move and work with what's in the group and work with your energy is that something that you actually enjoy and sort of noticed okay I think we're going to go off plan here and what might be some of the clues that things are starting to go off plan for you do you feel I do enjoy going off plan but you need to have have you need to have a plan so that you know you're going off it the other thing about improv is it's not chaos so when you do
(32:45) see improv the scene is always within a boundary so there's if it's a game there's a rule there's rules to the game but you just don't know what's going to happen within so it's a bit like the container we have the the container but we don't know what's going to happen in it and so you know to to answer that question it can be I've had instances where an announcement has been made by senior leaders that have a direct impact on the work that that the the team's going to be doing that nobody was aware
(33:17) of or emotions come to the surface and there's an eruption of some sort that needs to be acknowledged and dealt with and worked with now there so there're just two examples of where what can happen I think there's there's one quite more recently where we had asked a team to do some pre-work Danny you asked me at the beginning about the industry industry agnostics so we don't know what's a good activity list for your profession or these roles and as we started to work through these activity
(33:50) lists it became very clear there wasn't a shared understanding of what the activities were within the team and we really couldn't move on until we did that so that meant what was going to take an hour basically took 3/4 of a day but it was fundamental to be able to move forward and so you know it's like every night when you're doing this job you're kind of redesigning for the for the next day and again that's what's uh that's what I love about this craft so big question but when you look back at
(34:19) your career so far what are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned are lessons that I've learned I think trust the process know we we of we're often telling our clients to trust the process we should trust our own processes as well there's also I think there's also something about we've talked about flexibility but being able to flex and I had a bit of an aha moment when I read the work of Laura Hower and she talks about as a facilitator or being in front of the room or working with a client
(34:49) you're needing to shapeshift depending where their needs are so I think one of those lessons is needing to hold lightly where you think you need to be compared to where the group needs you to be becomes important I think it's also something about develop your own practice and style it can be very easy to be in a conference be at an event listen to a podcast and go I want to be like that person but that person's already taken and so who are you when it comes to doing this work and what's the unique special quality that you bring to
(35:24) the work cuz we all do in different ways and again and you know that's where doing this work in partnership with somebody else is very powerful because you bring two different personality skill sets outlooks to the client system and that's something that I've leared to Value more over time and I think there's also something about knowing when to walk away so there's walking away when the job is done and there's also walking away because you're either not the right person for the work or you're stepping
(35:55) into a space which is going to be a mindfield and might be being brought in for the wrong reasons financially it could be great from a business point of view it could be great but but from an ethical or professional point of view it might not be so just that knowing when to walk away is very powerful as well there's so many important lessons in there if you're new to ad just rewind that last three minutes back and play it forward again so that's really powerful isn't it so you've got a lifelong career
(36:25) of learning constantly throwing yourself into new ways of work working and new context and whatnot as well how do you invest in your own Learning and Development clearly you've got a thirst for it haven't you but what what methods do you use I read a lot I have a pile of books that I haven't read yet which is causing me anxiety CU I know there's good stuff in there and I need to find the time to read it podcasts you mentioned my dog it's a great way to listen to podcasts cuz I need to take
(36:49) her out for a walk uh a couple of times a day connecting with others so whether that's through odne or other channels the conversations that I have with other people I find really Illuminating and and quite challenging um either just in conversation they'll just drop something in I had one recently where colleague mentioned Morgan's metaphors for organizations I'm not going to explain it look it up the title is enticing but it's think oh that's interesting and go away and and and find out about it so
(37:22) there's some of that you know kind of what's the word I'm looking for just in the moment learning ideas Sparks of curiosity and then some formal things so I did the program around on executive team coaching at ashridge I did the foundations and the intermediate program of horse coaching the relational systemic coaching and I have on my two do list and now I'm about to make it public I guess I have to do it is the uh the Leicester conference at Tavy and I know you had I know you had a podcast on
(37:52) the Leicester conference but there's something about that that group dynamics and really immersing myself in it that I've finding both exciting and scary at the same time wow you are you going the full 10 days are you is it 10 or 14 14 oh my good gosh 14 we can't wait to hear how that goes but I I do remember from the podcast I listened to uh Name Escapes me and I I apologized for that said you know you either either love it or you resist it so um we'll see which Camp I fall in yeah so you've given us
(38:24) several book recommendations which I've scribbled down cuz I'm I'm an Avid Reader I love a book are there any particular books or podcasts you recommend to kind of aspiring OD practitioners yes s's Fifth Discipline field handbook I think is a wonderful even for experienced practitioners it's always great to dip back into and I've got a copy on my bookshelf that's well thumbed me too I think the book on senior senior leader of teams by Ruth Wagman and Richard Hackman's a great
(38:50) book I listen to the Curious Advantage podcast which is a really good one as Simon Brown and Gareth Jones I think um and one other author the book's really good as well and I use toen a lot in my work and so the science of Personality podcast I find interesting and entertaining and the guys who who do it are really good and and I find with podcasts they you kind of they kind of come and go as well so you know you you listen to one and for a couple of episodes and then there only so many hours in the day and so then another one
(39:21) comes along and another one comes along and the have a good collection of Journal articles that I kind of weighed through brilliant and and one of the re reasons why we started the podcast was to inspire the next generation of people that were either about to embark on an organization Development Career or at the just the early stage what advice would you give to someone who's just starting out connect a network I think that's one of the things I regret I didn't do enough of when I started this journey certainly as an internal
(39:52) practitioner and I think many of us do start as internal practitioners so connect and work um outside of your own organization is really important experiment I do like the work of Amy Edmonson and her encouragement for experimentation and and you kind of learn from those failures and I've had some spectacular ones in my time but on reflection you they they're really great learning moment so take those calculated risks and experiment I think there's also something about taking time out to reflect and that's where supervision can
(40:27) be very powerful even with a little s it doesn't have to be big formal but if you've got colleagues who are doing OD work have lunch together and just simply talk about what's the work you're doing and how's it going and and what are you struggling with I think there's also something about if you want to use tools and methods and Frameworks be selective on what you choose and you know I think the three of us support evidence-based methodologies and tools and Frameworks and get to know them really well immerse
(40:56) yourself in them pull them apart pull them back together really understand what's behind them so this is one of those cases where few is more don't become a tool collector I don't think that helps it's really interesting because there's so many tools that are used by people if but if you actually dig a little bit deeper beneath the service they're more of a heuristic there's not a massive evidence base behind them but know you have to do your research don't you to check them out you
(41:21) do and um I know you've had him on the on the show previously you know David Wilkinson from the Oxford review I'm I'm a fan of his work and I'm a member of the Oxford review it's a great place to get that grounded evidence-based OD work same with odne I should mention um and and I said it already I think there is something about tread your own path much used line but become the OD consultant that you want to become not that you think is needed or that somebody else is cuz then I think you become much more
(41:53) authentic much more comfortable and can really bring yourself to CR CFT and have more impact well I want to say a huge thank you Mark it's been a really engaging insightful precise thought through podcast and you given us such brilliant insights and so I think wherever you are in your career there's just so many valuable things that you've share today so thank you if people want to follow your work if they want to learn more about the conference that's coming up or they want to join the thriving community that is the odne
(42:23) network what's the best way for them to to reach out and follow up them this you can find me on LinkedIn and uh you'll put you'll put the link there if you do want to connect with me good to let me know that it's through the podcast so you're not just some random stranger so happy to connect that way and uh or contact me through my odne email again we'll put those in the show notes but more importantly uh it would be wonderful to see those who are in Europe at the conference find me say hello I'll
(42:51) be up the front somewhere easy to find Brilliant thank you there's so many takeaways Danny what are you taking away from today's conv thoroughly enjoyed today's conversation so I think I loved what you said at the beginning about the the fact that we don't spend enough time as teams practicing and working on being a team rather than just performing I was really interested in the kind of the idea there's different flavors of Zod across Europe and kind of understanding more about that and kind of using that as
(43:13) something to be curious about and The Improv side of things um I want to explore more of that I think there were lots of lessons in there that that really really apply to but yeah absolutely and I think you could have done a mic drop when you did the the teams don't practice enough because because that is such a fundamental truth and it's I think sometimes it's when something is then when you hear it it's so obvious that you know there's Real Genius behind that thought as well again other things that stood out for me is
(43:37) like just being aware of the anglo-american lens that we look through things and broaden your field and engageing the European Network and Beyond as well and again I loved what you said about the improvisation so staying light on your feet don't rigidly hold on to the plan you know work with what's in the room work with the energy and apply that sort of wisdom that's in the room as well and also just what you're saiding about models have some depth to it don't just throw models on because you find them quite interesting
(44:02) know the models know the evidence based behind and apply as well so so thank you so much Mark it's been a brilliant brilliant episode we brought you on board to talk about odne but we've got even more value from talking about about your career as well so thank you it's been really really good really enjoyed having you on so thank you it's been my absolute pleasure and uh thank you so much for the invitations thank you [Music] he [Music]