Navigating Complexity with Dr. Eliat Aram - OrgDev Episode 56

How much of what happens in teams is shaped by forces we can’t see?
In this bonus episode, we sit down with Dr. Eliat Aram, CEO of the Tavistock Institute of Human Relations, to explore the hidden dynamics that influence leadership, teamwork, and organisational performance. Dr. Aram unpacks the role of the unconscious in shaping team interactions, introduce the BART model (Boundary, Authority, Role, Task) as a framework for understanding team dynamics, and shed light on what might be happening beneath the surface in group settings.

For over 75 years, the Tavistock Institute has been at the forefront of research and practice in systems thinking, group dynamics, and organisational development. In this conversation, Dr. Aram helps leaders and teams build self-awareness, decode organisational challenges, and apply practical strategies to navigate complexity more effectively.

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Transcript

Transcript:
(00:00) hi and welcome to this special episode of the org Dev podcast now we're bringing you something different and packed full of fascinating Insight it's a conversation from an exclusive session I recently delivered in my role as chair of cipd London OD and network featuring the brilliant Dr Elliot Aram CEO of the Tavo Institute of human relations Dr Aram is a leading thinker and practitioner in system psychodynamics and organizational change with a deep expertise in the unconscious processes that shap leadership teams and
(00:33) transformation now tabex Talk's influence on the field of organization development is found in our discussion we explore how organizations navigate complexity the hidden Dynamics the impact leadership and what it really takes to create adaptive human centered workplaces so we really hope you enjoy this session you get loads of alue from it and feel free to share your insights in the comments and we feel this is something that would be valuable for others to learn about in terms of the world of group dynamics then please
(00:59) fulfill share this video with [Music] others Institute as you have just said has been around for a long time and we combine deep psychological insight with a system thinking approach to help organizations navigate that complexity which we will talk about more we walk beneath the surface we explore the Unseen Dynamics those of individual group and systemic and our work is not about quick fixes but enabling sustainable change through reflective practice as well as action research so we have an array of organization
(01:45) development practice professional development programs and quite a substantial Port portfolio of research brilliant and when when you say working beneath the surface I think that's probably what an important thing is it because we we in HR in particular we we see lots of events don't we but really this is about look as looking what is going beneath the surface what might be driving that is that right yeah that's right it's to do with that concept known as the unconscious which we will talk about more when we talk about the group
(02:16) dynamics and how to understand them for example we do quite a lot of work with energist leadership there and one of the aspects of that has been to uncover unconscious resistance to organizational change which I will also come back to later we do work with the European Union on social policies that also explore systemic impacts on employment and Welfare and we also do a lot of work in Social cohesion and migration will explore how Community self organized in response to external pressure so one of the aspects of
(02:55) analyzing group dynamics and the tensions between inclusion and exclusion the projects help to shape more effective policies and interventions so this is something about how our crosses disciplines if you and practices so what key principles should OD practitioners keep in mind so um a lot of the people joining us on the gr today will be seeing uncertainty around them even just from a geopolitical perspective and an economy perspective what key principles should OD practitioners keep in mind with navigating uncertainty yeah so in
(03:28) principle this would be the the five if you like points so stay with uncertainty rather than rush to solution requires what beond called Ry which is a state of openness without memory or desire allowing for deep listening and emergent thinking and consultant need to resist in our mind in our methodology the urge to impose certainty where actually no certainty or very little certainty exists the second has to do with acknowledging and working with resistance it's important because even when organizations want to change or
(04:06) people say that they want to change actually unconscious forces often pull them back to the familiar in a way if you like better the devil we know so that can feel safer than what is unknown even though we consciously and rationally aspire to improve and to be better so the role of the a consultant is not just to propose the chains but also help the organization sck with the discomfort and work for the blockages and then the third is adopt The Stance of an anthropologies which I can say more about that later but in overall it's
(04:46) rather than judging or fixing an organization it's about observing and working with what is so the suggestion is to enter the system with curiosity rather than with PR conceptions to a tune like an anthropologist would to the rituals the stories the underlying patterns and to believe the change emerges not by imposing external Solutions but by engaging with a system and the way it actually functions not the way we think it might function or we think it should function the fourth element has to do with embracing Paradox and emergence
(05:31) and again complexity Theory here teaches us that multiple and seemingly contradictory forces lack stability and change control and creativity exist intention for the most transformative shift they often emerge not through the rigid plans but from within the group itself the OD practitioner will trust the group process will allow patterns and insight to emerge organically and will really avoid presenting Solutions which is often very very difficult because the organization forth is very much to look to the practitioner the external
(06:14) practitioner as an expert and finally to cultivate negative capability which is a rather difficult concept to convey what does that mean it actually comes from Ki the poet who wrote who wrote in a letter to his sons very many years ago and he talks about negative capability and beon that's W beon is one of the founding members of the tblop way of working talked about that and effect essentially it is about the ability to tolerate doubt and ambiguity and not knowing without grasping to various premature answers so what is implicit in
(06:55) that it's a stance which takes a lot of learning and practice but it's a stance which implicitly suggests humility and the idea that we are here to explore a long s side to accompany our clients in their journey in the unknown so if you like we are experts in Walking In unknown terrain we're not experts in finding the route through the terrain we're all practitioners in organizations up with and organizations really value certainty don't they they value the right answer they they bar been able to
(07:30) give accurate timings to things but a lot of change what you're saying there is therefore it's unknown we don't know what it's going to do and we don't know what's going to happen but so therefore we need to turn up a little bit differently exactly it's really fascinating it's a real sort of change of mind isn't it to a lot sort traditional change management as well and one of the things that the ter does a lot of is looking at things like the unconscious and that's just something
(07:53) that's really worth exploring what is the unconscious in organization what role does it play okay and the conscious is a concept that first was developed by Roy in his in his model of conscious subconscious he spoke about which is another way we speak about it in a is the linous space and the unconscious the unconscious is those aspects that we are completely unaware of and if you like what personality is to the individual culture is to the organization so the way we can see unconscious Dynamics in organizations is
(08:31) often through conflict it seems irrational resistance to change in in a sense or in places where actually we might be surprised because we were invited into the organization to change so why the resistance and sometimes by patterns of scapegoating or on the other side of that idealizations so this forces they shape the team culture they shape performance and they often um more than they shape those more than the former structures and the strategies so not paying attention to them means missing a crucial part of this organizational
(09:10) puzzle and I get because we do see things like lots of conflict in organizations and and scapegoating so it's often It's Not What It Seems there's something going on beneath the surface that we need to explore to understand it what I it's not what it seems or or it might be a repetitive or it might be contrary to watch if the spoken so those levels are all the levels that we are we need to think on enough bit and be able to navigate including what was going on for us so I would stay bit more about that latery
(09:43) please yeah and you've got an example there a senior leader have again it's an example from our beloved NHS it's an occasion where senior leader was unconsciously positioned as the hero which means that and often leaders are expected to solve all all conflict to um to make all the decisions to know everything H in in coaching I think there are a lot of people who do coaching in our audience today and they have probably found that from their own experience of this Dynamic can lead to and also to unspoken feelings of Shame
(10:22) as the leader struggles with what is an impossible expectation to be all knowing meanwhile other team members feel disempowered they might feel withdrawn or kind of forgetting about their own accountability and Authority so what we then often do is develop spaces for group Reflections and facilitate sessions where the team can begin to explore what are the projections to recognize the emotional undercurrents that are at play and importantly we need to find ways to bring passion into the process so everybody can recognize also
(11:03) the vulnerability in the leadership of the leadership and shift towards a more shared model where effectively we go back to the point about embracing uncertainty and developing understanding the interdependencies and therefore developing resilience and crucially finding ways to move from a blame culture to a place where learning is possible by accepting mistakes well that's fascinating and I I think probably people can identify with a lot of these things that people share I think so yeah it happens so easily and
(11:37) just for the audience if you do have questions about anything that we're talking about here or maybe even your own examples please feel free to add them in the chat or feel free to put your hand up at any time as well so please go on it's it's really fascinating I think I think a deep reflection is like a habit it's like a muscle that needs to be developed and it's often the main roote to facilitating lasting change I would say we're not working with magic wands or as my um friend and colleague Steve ham
(12:11) recently published in his book there no Silver Bullet is very much it's very much the way that the tavist St stance has always been active you know it takes time it takes a lot of interaction and communication and then we can help teams bring hidden patterns to light work through emotional undercurrent and pattern and shift for shift into the organization into a culture which can sustain itself by a process of ongoing learning for learning in know the capacity to learn is key not to say that generally in the world we're very good
(12:49) at that I think we aspire to that and that's a good SP yeah you tou on really important point there is is that often we're sort of projected into the bone of are ourselves aren't we like fix this we you HR coming and be the silver bullet and trying to fix this but it's not as simple as that is it and sometimes we have to sort of decline that invitation and find a do it it's very tempting though because the alternative is all to be ourselves in touch with feelings of helplessness or even hopelessness
(13:22) depending on the context where we were brilliant and and when you talk about reflection like how much should that be woven into our work is it something that you do quarterly how often should should you be doing it as part of your natural practice all the time whether you do it via working with your peers whether it's through supervision whether it's through working with the client and here all the time and you talk about creating spaces for open dialogue reflection and shared leadership can you just say a little bit
(13:53) more about that what does that look like looks like exactly exactly that the about it's about finding obviously you're negotiating with the client and obviously you need to take the parts of the organization in terms of what's possible when and how but essentially it's about finding ideally let's say a rhythm which is a certain place where these conversations can take place over time over a certain period of time per frequent intervals but not too frequent intervals allow for other things to bubble in between in
(14:35) spaces yeah I guess that's one of the most important things that OD can do is actually just opening that space up because that space often doesn't exist Does it so it is about bringing people together and facilitating that in a really carefully designed way yes then often H it might exist but then especially if you work in the public sector and possibly in the voluntary sector where there isn't a lot of funding these kind of spaces are often sadly the first to go rather than those that stay so it does depend on how how
(15:06) the organization or the leadership of the oranization understand what is required brilliant so just we've got a quick pause there so if anybody has any questions or if anybody's got any observations or even sort of personal experiences with it maybe see of people projected into the bowl of hereo maybe the example resonating with it please do feel free to uh raise your hand or just put something in the chat as well so as say we'll keep things moving because we're going to talk about um in a few
(15:33) moments we're going to talk about um boundaries as well because that's a really important part of the um the practice is it within organization yeah it's a very very key concept bound um I start with my favorite way of understanding and explaining boundaries which is drawing attention to us when we were born and reminding everyone or or telling everyone depending on where you come from that the very first boundary that we come to know when we are born which is pre verbal is that of our skin and the skin is the largest and
(16:07) most vital organ in our body by the way and without it we will not know any well we will basically um disintegrate without our skin our skin is the first way that we learn to distinguish what's me from what's not me so our skin other point point to say about it it is a semi permeable system in its own right it protects us it differentiates us as I said but it also allows exchange without which we will also not survive so a good example is um being in sun which we all hope will come our way soon so we can
(16:52) one day one day in the in the near future and uh the St you know gives us the vitamin that we need so it keeps us healthy but it can also with Too much exposure can hurt us and B us even so the purpose of the skin is to be this filter which helps us adapt to the change that is a foot and also to continue to to maintain a health hands and of our of our body which of course in certain perspective is also so more more holistic than that so in a similar way you can think about boundaries in or deep practice and in organizations
(17:39) generally the boundaries create structures and containment there also if you like a good way to think about them um is to think about them as interfaces they provide spaces for the interaction for the negotiation and for learning so what what we constantly do in our organizations in our team as individuals in our wider systems we navigate across boundaries what does that mean we navigate between roles identities different authorities and importantly Tas task in itself is also a boundary in the sense that we need to
(18:22) understand its purpose our role in relation to it so that a boundary what is expected of us that's another direction that the boundary goes up and therefore the AIT practice is is really not about removing boundaries or enforcing them but about understanding and working with them bringing them to the surface consciously so that we can move within that pattern of relations called organization without losing our coherence shall I carry on all all what so questions you this is so fascinating because I think it's
(19:02) probably resonate with organizations are full ofies even like the way the organization is designed into functions means that you're constantly able to transcend it but those relationships don't happen by accident and you really got to work them to make them to work productively they're also intention you know they're intention with each other so for example if you asked me in our prep what happens when baries are unclear or violated and and I had a little bit of a reaction to the world violated because the common fear around
(19:34) this this idea of violating boundaries is that it can sometimes lead to avoidance and to silence and to shutting down real conversations in the name of safety but actually and what we do at the tavist stop when I say that we create safe spaces for difficult conversations is that real psychological safety is not about an ABS sense of tension it's about the opposite it's about the ability to engage with difference to engage with Challenge and with a discomfort when the boundaries are too rigid we cannot talk about
(20:12) things basically and and when they're too weak then everything can collap into confusion so neither are safe or supportive so when you when we walk with bound at a deeper level we need to recognize that these are the space where we encounter the difference we explore the differences we negotiate them and then we can hold the working through across them so there's a there's saying about let's agree to disagree which is the least dialogical thing one could say really it's a kind of an eliminating of
(20:52) difference or on the other hand what people might say well meaning people might say we all the same we are all humans we are all the same no we're not that either we actually different and it's very curious to understand and discover more about how we different and the more we can discover about ourselves the more we can understand the other and vice versa so to walk across differences and across boundaries can be really engaging and meaningful and exciting and lead to lead to much more substantial and profound and Lasting change and
(21:32) transformation and development and growth yeah that's really powerful isn't it so it's it's not that boundaries are a bad thing and the difference is it's it's about making sure that we explore those things in detail so your skin analogy has gone down really well in the chat okay so people are really resonating with that as well so that sounds a and of of course they can't be beused as well and they can't be used as exertion of power and they can be po criticized or we colonized then likewise
(22:02) since the skin analogy is going down well likewise is the skin of course we know a lot about a lot about that in our practice and in our understanding of diversity and difference how the skin can be also weaponized just made B's point so B made a really interesting com she said there're also cultural issues related to skin can be seen discriminatory In some cultures very similar to work cultures as well a tribal mentality brilliant thank you a really nice point and thank you so much for everyone jumping into the comments
(22:31) as well some really insightful things being shared and this is a really open session so please feel free just to share your observations because the group really benefits from that as well shall I should I move on yes boundary work not about balance yes just a few know I I I don't want to start too solution driven and you know how to do things but it's probably important when you practice as as an a CH just to hold a few more Concept in mind and for me concept from complexity Theory are very important
(23:04) because boundary work is not about balancing and all about harmonizing for me and in the way that I am view the world of practice and the world of theory it's about holding what is apparently contradictory in Creative tension um yeah like I said here what partly could be contradict iory structure versus flexibility autonomy versus accountability belonging versus difference there actually work develops our understanding of self and other and group and organization develops when we hold this with with if you like the crystal
(23:49) concept of figure and ground they're always coming in and out of site at the same time we don't want only one or the other we want want them always to be alive and and and visic and work with and never resolve in a way never resolve that's the way we want to keep going means we never resolve this there's always another question there's always another step there's always another terrain to work in and um yeah these are the sour for growth for learning again which is really how I understand
(24:28) organization and development it's about learning the tr's really hotting up here so Deborah Dre just made a lovely comment she said basically acceptable boundaries change from person to person and we see um we are seeing major tensions these days with the cultural shifts and changes in expectations about what is normal behavior especially intergenerational tensions the problem is a lack of open-mindedness to Alternative viewpoints we have an environment of council culture and fear I guess is there any sort of there that
(24:58) sort of resonate with in terms of like even just except boundaries change from person to person yes and course and and also the the the comment about the intergenerational is a very important boundary in organization how work across the different Generations that exist in organization and uh that's very alive for me Paul made a video but he said so not necessarily polarities but contradictions instead so because you took kind of talk about polar he's to opposite what's your thoughts on that well I think polarity is
(25:34) a is for suggesting contradictions is the word instead of polarities that's yeah that's fine and and if you like if you hold the polarities at the two ends but you put them back together you know that's where they meet and they can live in this creative tension yes so it's holding if you like both and and also H we like at the Tav St the model of the third the third is always the one that um helps us and not flatten the line if you like brilliant I'm learning so this is this is I'm happy here this is we
(26:13) move on to group dynamics and roles and again if anyone has any questions please feel free um to be greedy and ask the questions that you'd like as well because it's really adding value to the conversation so we asked you about group dynamics and you also talked about someone called Wilfred beop who was a part of the tab stock as well so some people may not be familiar with this word but it's it's fascinating field isn't it group dynamic yes it is so the group the group dynamic in the T model
(26:37) are not just a collection of individuals they function as living systems and they are shaped by both the conscious and the unconscious forces and people take up roles sometimes deliberately but sometimes unconsciously they form alliances conflict emerge and also unspoken Norms govern those behavor AV and in B's model I will try to say very very briefly so he was quite optimistic in terms of his attitude to the capacity of groups to work and and this possibly because he was actually a military psychiatrist so
(27:16) he worked a lot with the application of of O power if you lack of group's capacity to heal and of the group's capacity to to work work was you know work to the task was very important but as a psychoanalyst he was also very aware of anxieties and he suggested that at any time at any time the group can fall out of if you like and it's focused on its task because the anxiety has gone up too much and then he had a few propositions of what that might look like but I don't think I would go into that right now but what um I also want
(28:00) you to link into this idea of group dynamics is that they exist and you can see them at any level so when I'm preparing for this SE I I hope I'm not going to be um gaining some enemies right now but I live near the Arsenal football stadium and in the background the Arsenal Man City match was happening and what I always noticed but I don't go but SCH M for my heart I don't go to actual mat but I hear the crowd and I always I have learned to recognize and the sound of the crowd you know in terms of when it's a goal when
(28:41) it's the opponent goal when it's a when it's a save and so on and what you become very conscious of if you watch know the or or listen to the football is that even without words these thousands of people move react and respond in in some un undecided but self organized synchronicity and what I would like to say is that the crowd develop its own Rhythm you know it could be Joy it could be frustration it could be anticipation and in teams and organizations if we go you know if we narrow down the level again from the big
(29:20) crowd to the organization all the way to the interpersonal all of these are also at play and we can listen to them we can listen out for them in and and then see them in unspoken loyalties silent tensions shared aspirations and a lot of group emotions which often are either defenses against all expressions of feelings of exclusion as opposed to belonging competition that competition or even rivalry which is more destructive and jealousy or Envy which is again more dis disruptive than of course the power and the politics and if
(30:04) we listen to them then we can get a sense of what shapes the collective behavior and and then we need to find a way back to the individual and help the individual find their own sense of self and Authority within them and I'll just say that that links to another very important concept of beon which was the concept of veency the veeny in simple T is the buttons that can get pressed in us and they get pressed mostly unconsciously because they actually those behaviors have served us very well in our lives so for
(30:44) example the class Joker you know when tensions are high in the classroom you can guarantee there there the kid that quacks the jaw makes everyone laugh and diffuses the situation they probably landed back in their family or home setting where they became the the funny person who helped when anxieties or tensions in the family in whatever constellation were too high and then one day they're now in the 40s or in the 50s there a senior manager in an organization and they go to coaching and they say you know I'm always the one who
(31:26) CS the job but recently people started to tell me that it's tiring that it's unhelpful that it's out of s with my RO as a leader and I don't quite know what's going on so then a cisto coach would have the opportunity to draw some connection between the veency IE the tendency of the person deal through a a rather you know quick and and um brief some time sense of humor by cracking a joke to diffuse a situation but when they s there as a manager of a team it's not necessarily the most appropriate
(32:08) reaction anymore so that's when you can help the leader discover that what has sted them very well throughout their lives that's the compassionate STS may be no longer helpful and by bringing that into awareness they might now they might now have the opportunity they they can still choose not to but they have the opportunity to choose differently the way that they respond to a situation and work with it but that's in short the concept of veency and te do use things like humor a lot don't they to sort of
(32:45) work through difficult moments and it's understanding what it's about I'm desperate to get to the next slide it's about interventions and stances for this as well so you talk about group dynamics and and some of the potential interventions that we can do whether we're internal external as well that way so the cut of the line so practical intervention will stand still definitely the first one is the organization development consultant as an anthropologist and what I mean by that is working with what is rather than
(33:15) what we assume or desire things to be it means that we approach the organizational life with curiosity rather than judgment being attuned to the unspoken Norms to the rituals to the emotional undercurrent as I said previously it is also about seeing ourselves not as only as a participant but also an as an observer but not only as an observer also as a participant which means that in our practice everything that we require of the other we require of ourselves first so using developing capacity to use ourselves as
(33:55) the tool is a very important aspect of the way we work and in psychoanalytic terms I will be talking about transference and counter transference but it's essentially what I've just said is about and recognizing the space of our own reactions to the situation and bringing that into the learning space the other one is understanding systems as factors wherever the intervention is located and whether it's at the small or largest scale or location it can have an impact on the entire organization or system so whether you
(34:34) work with the board or you work with them one of the Departments you're likely to find the same pattern reemerging in a slightly different way but in a s similar way similar enough but it gives you the clues and then know and the know how to work with it now it doesn't mean that what the intervention is is necessarily going to have the impact in the way that you um planned for or wanted it to be but it will have an impact and then it's about how you navigate between them and of course Very Much key to the work of the tab is
(35:18) having a space for the resistance understanding it letting yourself go into it if you like the model of and letting go to letting B and um and then the idea is that the when you work with it and let your sell and the system go into it it is more likely that people will find their way out and change it in a paradoxical way so basically sucessful interventions will require both the observing of the system and the willingness to experiment with in like how C we used to say in order to understand the system you do need to experiment with need to
(36:05) reflect on it and then know how to take your next step with it gosh this is fascinating if you if you are seeing this for the first time this just so much incredible Insight coming out here and we've got a couple of questions that come up in the chat so Krishan has asked a question thank you Kristian in the current world of speed and change to survive approach how do you look at the time taken for OD initiatives like so they cont St they like we we're really got a break nit speed but OT initiatives take time to
(36:36) identify the patterns and then start to make some change in engagement as well yeah I think that's a that's the key challenge really for all practitioners who want to work with the stop methodology it's a key challenge for us I can say that of organizations py a lot of quick fixes Solutions or off the sh processes and over time they discover that this don't work they don't last because they haven't dealt with the persistent problems which emerge in different ways which are under the surface So
(37:14) eventually they called tabis Institute and but I I don't even have a simple answer to that I think it's a it again requires a a negotiation if if competition wants to work in a particular way it's the only SE on us to explain why this way of working is eventually more sustainable one of the things we say sometimes is our job is to make ourselves redundant which is also a double Ed S because if we're successful then that's exactly what it is we're no longer required in the longer term so it's also
(37:55) about the practitioner being a being able to take the risk that you know we might be out of the job for one and of course if this is our only thought of income then that tension for us as individuals as well which is why we are often tempted who work in other ways Debbie just had a a question just the terms up in order to break lifelong habits do you think that time constrained coaching interventions are useful as opposed to something that's more intense and ongoing to break those habits I I think for me personally
(38:31) shortterm work be in coaching or in therapy which is my other identity is always a little bit of a challenge I'm I'm much more comfortable with Meandering for a while and and being able to have that space But it is a positive Challenge and I and I like to take it on every now and again and I'm not I don't like to have clients for years either I don't think that's particularly helpful so I think I think everything has the space that's the that's the that's the thing I in in a
(39:06) perfect world we would be able to change from one way of working to another but I also have had if we talk about coaching I have also had over the years many people will complete one cycle and then I don't hear from them for months or years and then they come back for another reason to do another shortterm piece of work focused work talk about something that bothers them so over a long period of time I'm seeing them in in the longer term or accompanying them as they change their careers and and move and navigate in their world so
(39:43) that's you know that's a great privilege if you can be that person to them as well appre great question great question I think it resonate with a lot of people so just in the last five minutes ellot can we just look at systems thinking in organization I won interrup you I just let you share with we' like to share I think the key indicators to to for us to noce or to have you know the light B me a lot that we're dealing with whole system issues could be things like could be things I think I said it before that
(40:15) persist despite perhaps our conscious effort to move on from them so this could be things like high turnover stos recurring conflict and because that seem to be un shiftable it could mean to us that there's something going on under the stresses that needs addressing I would give you a very quick example from a work that I did it's also published in a book so you can get hold of it my colleague man share and I did work with a lithography R&D company called asml and this the one of the structures that
(40:53) we noticed there is that the company had two presidents the St o who was very diplomatic and outward facing and the C who was the chief technology officer who was genius technologically but very tless so their partnership often looked like the one saying something which was offending to some provider or in the wider context of The Wider ecosystem and then the CEO fixing that for the and his capacity but what we have and in order to um obviously together in that kind of a PIR intention they sustain the huge success of the organization huge
(41:38) success however what we noticed over time as we walked around the system is that this kind of fight interdependent confront caring existed in many different pockets in the organization so for example the Engineers versus the physes were in in great apparent tension around their collaboration or pulling in different direction which of course has a an impact to the lower level practitioners of the organization so then we began to understand and that's where the stral idea of system thinking become becomes very relevant then you can working with
(42:22) that means that whether we we could we couldn't really work with the presidents they were not in justed so we work at other levels of the organization brought that Dynamic into awareness with the people themselves shifted that and then slowly slowly it dissipated actually and walked through that way so you don't always have to work with a c to the question about the shortterm of course that's why it's useful if you can't get access to the top and the top is really open to look also at their own cont
(42:57) ution to the dysfunctionality in the organization then it's a win-win because you can obviously because of their authority over the organization change can be quicker but more often than not the top likes to believe that the problem is outside of them the board hardly ever wants to acknowledge the itself in the problem in the relationship they like to see in the wider system so then yeah by all means if you get the mandate to work in the wider system go for it because you will have sustainable change at the
(43:36) end of that so when when you think about systems perspective you want to think about organization not in terms of linear cause and effect thinking pay attention to the interdependencies and the heed Dynamics and then with an aspiration to move for a blame and quick fix cult to to curiosity and longlasting learning so this is my kind of work of the year and also why you can call me a doctor so I think working with shame is really really key in a transformative change and my phis my thinking is that shame is not about a
(44:21) paralyzing effect which of course it can be but walking with shame as a transformative aect though unlike guilt which I can say a lot more about which focuses on the individual wrongdoing is relational and it can help us to reveal where the organization is stuck exposed or uncertain when stuff is then held with compassion shame can become a getaway to growth allowing organizations to engage with their vulnerabilities rather than defensively repeating all patterns the I will just read what what I put on the slide by fostering spaces called
(45:02) reflection psychological safety and exploratory thinking all the practitioners help organizations stay with a discomfort often shame of course leads to Great discomfort long enough for Meaningful change to emerge rather than retreating into defensive routines I really want you to say something about chain it's so important isn't it because it's often so suppressed organizations isn't it we just try not to stay away from it yet that's where the change can potentially come from isn't it yes I would just say
(45:34) rather than repeat myself I will just say on the very end uh bullet point is that shame is our friend in our work to know and to have empathy for our own shame to put ourselves in a learning place and by that I would encourage everyone to come and do some work with us at the D Institute you can also then learn to work with others sharing and then lead to paying lasting transformation well thank you so much you've just condensed so much into 50 minutes I just want to say a huge thank you we've had so many people engaged in
(46:13) the process and the questions we haven't got to so agie was asking a question about the role of midle management in locking change as well so everyone will receive a copy of the slid if people want to follow your work and they want to engage with you or just learn a little bit more about the t a St what's the best way for people to do this so I embedded a link here to our professional development page and I think at the beginning of the slide IED a general link to the douet Institute and I think this is the best way know right to us
(46:43) join our newsletter follow us talk to us H do are one of our programs many of our program well thank you so much and there's loads of lovely comments coming through the chat this takes a lot of preparation to do a session like this as well so we really appreciate the time we thought you put into it [Music] [Music]