What Organisation Development Can Learn from Learning & Development - OrgDev Episode

In this week’s OrgDev podcast, we explore what Organisation Development can learn from Learning & Development with David Hayden. 

From Formula 1 pit stops to the importance of storytelling, David shares how L&D insights can drive organisational success. We discuss the role of mental models, the power of learning cultures, and how OD practitioners can apply evidence-based approaches to learning and change. If you're looking for fresh ways to connect L&D and OD for greater impact, this is a great episode to watch.

Thanks for listening!

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Transcript

Transcript:
(00:00) hi and welcome to the org Dev podcast so what can organization development learn from Learning and Development how can we transfer insights from high performing individuals and teams in other fields like Formula 1 into our own organizations and how can L&D and OD work together to achieve greater impact today we dive into these questions with leading Learning and Development thinker David Hayden together we'll explore the science of learning and performance and how it can drive organization success and and also understand what OD
(00:32) practitioners might be missing David is an accomplished author of books including adjacent learning and learning in development in the workplace and he also leads consultancy Talent delivers where he works with individuals and companies to Divine their L&D Direction and content David is passionate about the impact and transfer of learning in the workplace and he's had a fascinating career including shaping the learning offer of The chared Institute of personal development to its 150,000 members his extend of experience is
(01:01) underpinned by academic qualifications including two masters one was enough for me and he's a charted fellow of the cipd and he's a man after iron heart with a passion for distance running and this year he completed the London marathon in a really decent time as well so welcome David we're absolutely delighted to have you join us [Music] today so welcome love you to have here with us so just to kick us off just tell us a bit bit about the work you're doing um so yeah as as you heard there I I'm I
(01:34) I work freelance uh with my company Talent delivers um and as we record this it's been a year that I've been in in this world so it's been a it's been quite an interesting year very different finding the Rhythm um of the work but I've been doing a lot of I've been doing a lot of delivery around um organization design and development um so lots of practitioners who are looking to understand more about those two fields who are looking to um looking to uh get into those two two areas so as part of
(02:06) their Career Development or just they're working closer with organization design and development Specialists so they're wanting to know more about uh the colleagues that they're working with so that that's been a that's been a a big part of my year this year uh but I also kind of I'm associate for a couple other companies as well so I get to interact with some amazing individuals see their realities and what I'm really excited about in terms of next year how how this morphs next year um I'm taking up one of
(02:36) the board director posts for the Learning Network um so start a twoyear 10 year on that really excited by that so when we talk about L&D and OD that sometimes there an overlap how do you differentiate suit what's your definition of L &d versus oh so so I think in in in in terms of the way the way I come to terms with it is Learning and Development can tend to have a much narrower Focus so thinking around um thinking around specifics of organization performance so learning development will sit under an umbrella
(03:09) of organization development um so it be a strand of it so it may just concentrate on on a significant part whether that be leadership capability for instance may be a priority for Learning and Development or whether it be the skills agenda which a lot of the research at the minute is saying learning development are really focusing heavy on on the skills agenda so yeah so so it it's it's a much narrower more defined field however that's not to say some learning functions are really kind of starting to expand I know a number of
(03:41) rename themselves learning and organization development so really kind of embrace in that wider field of of of organization development in their offering yeah and what do people get wrong when they think about Learning and Development some people have quite a narrow view of it just kind of training it's just there like a 1980s view isn't there yeah AB absolutely so um yeah so substituting the word training for Learning and still delivering a catalog of training courses that's that's not that's not a Learning and Development
(04:13) function it's it's it's a it's a it's a training function primarily throwing content at people and and hoping that some of that content sticks so I think that that's one of the things where where people get a get a a wrong impression of Learning and Development it is more than delivering training it's looking more holistic at the individuals and the performance needed for the organization the subject of your book adjacent learning positioned over your left shoulder there which is a really
(04:42) good read is is really is really intriguing can you explain what it means and how insights from outside the business world can transform workplace learning as well so some really great examples in there aren't there thank you yes so um the the the premise is really really basic in in in in the fact that as employees we are more than our job description but very very quickly in organizations we become our job description very very quickly so um a lot of decisions are made based on the job description rather than the person
(05:15) but when you when when you get talking to people and hearing their stories there's there's a wealth of things people do outside of the world of work that actually contributes to them as as as as a whole as as as as their being at work so we we we've got we've got in the book about 50 people who Steve and I uh Steve George who co-authored who we who we asked say look you know what is it you do outside of work that makes you a better person at work you bring some of those those things to work and it was a
(05:50) very loose re remit we gave them but we got some amazing Stories back and we got we got stories from people who were who were run directors at Park R and and managing managing different teams of volunteers every week but their job role in their organization was was relatively Junior um you got people who were kind of running um running committees so one of the stories in there Sarah um she she was a a forlift operator uh operative in a warehouse but helped Rong a a a mums and babies mums bumps and babies it was
(06:27) called um community event Forum putting events on and you know things like that to help help new Ms um you had someone else kind of working through uh again a similar thing um working through women with uh going through the menopause and especially um younger women going through the menopause as well so all these all these things people do outside of work you know kind of how we can harness those skills to help Drive the skills Gap within organization so rather than just thinking oh right okay we need to put a
(07:01) training course on this skill what skills have we already got in the organization and so yeah it was an opportunity to to Really explore what what is it what is it we could do so Steve and I we created a framework so what is it we could do to help learning development and individuals to to explore the skills beyond the world of work one of the things um I saw you mention in a video online was about how great Orman Street hospital had sort of Taken tips from Formula 1 teams how to do pit stops about how they can show how
(07:37) does that happen because they a lot of organizations do look externally don't they um the classic example we sort of see is where someone's seing a a design somewhere else it work here you can see principles but it doesn't necessarily mean it will work in your organization you talk about a filter don't you so what is that process and and what was the example about Orman street right so so so yeah absolutely so the the the um so if you the the bitb Formula One is is where the the races is one or loss are
(08:08) things like wheel change and and and and and and fueling those kind of things the pit stop element and and formula one uh for so great AR Street we're looking at right how can we how can we we streamline some of our processes how can we make um how can we make things work fast because we need to make sure that we can we can deliver for our patients faster so it was it was around what what they did was they took a step back and explored not only what they wanted to do but where where could they learn lessons
(08:41) from so so if you think about the coming into the coming into the pit stop if you think about you know the the team working together if you think about um the the everyone's got their own unique role if you think about there's trust in everybody everyone having their the their place so everyone was in Formula One everyone's lined up they're all ready to go um that there's trust in that team there's trust that person next to them can do their job um and so it was breaking down those things so if you
(09:14) think around in in in a theater in a in in in in a in operating theater having that same kind of um ethos and and and belief and and and Thrive for teamwork so it's not like get someone in C can whip someone you know kind of kidneys out very very quickly and then stitch them back up and put them out but it's around that that you know kind of where's the sense of urgency where do we where have we got the gaps and and and and where can we mirror those examples and and apply them here so that the filter the filter stage in in the model
(09:48) is all around taking that step back not looking at a face value but taking a step back and saying what is happening here what what has led to someone being able to do it in 3 seconds someone been able to do it in 7 Seconds what what is the difference in in some of those team so for OD practitioners that are listening today what's one small yet impactful State they can step they can take today to begin applying insights from the outside world given a big part of organization development is um the humanistic element given that it's
(10:18) around um you know there's a big p piece around skills leadership skills employee skills um I think it is that so stories are a again stories are a big part of organization development as well so so taking that stage further and and really kind of going beyond the boundaries of the organization to think around what what stories have people got what what's their experience what is it what is it people um have experienced before so one of one of the challeng I worked for one organization um and they went through a
(10:53) a huge organizational change virtually every year and went on lots of lots of sessions with people who would had organization development job titles um to today and you know I I suck through a number of sessions where I'd be I'd be told about the change I'd be told about the the reasons for the change and I'd be told that you know kind of as an individual I would experience I would experience certain emotions and I would you know saw the kubal Ros Cur so many times in the '90s and and being told I
(11:26) would I weave my way through that and at one point I do remember saying um I'm actually feeling quite energized by this change you know there there's some really good stuff coming out of this so that opportunity to allow people to share their stories share their experience around around organization change not just in the organization they're in but what's gone on beyond that that current piece of employment I think if canar is more stories like that I think more people will feel that they're communicated with as opposed to
(12:05) communicated at and to I think it's a lovely example isn't it just being really aware of our own mental models about stuff so if our mental model is that change is scary and you know to be afraid that's how we might position it to the people that we're talking to if we think change is exciting we do it in a similar way so I think practitioners in either l or OD Absol kind of being aware of that's really important and and especially sort like you know kind the fact that so many of organizations are
(12:30) going through a constant CH so so we get through one one change and then we go to the another and then we go to the another you know it's not like the kind of 5 10 years gap between them um yeah so so employees will be used to um change interventions in organizations and and and so yeah let let let's say their stories and maybe learn from our employees where it might have gone really well in another organization H off is a really good example of those kind of those Frameworks or those models that just kind of stick around and just
(13:03) become kind of what are the other ones that for you kind of in your in your world that keep keep cropping up I'm I'm not I'm not the world's biggest fan of maslo I have have to admit but when I so um when I first came across across it it was like one of those things oh yeah this makes so much sense but then um I did some research on him for for one of my masters and it was like finding out about his childhood and his story and it's like okay so you know I I got some doubts in my mind was was it his
(13:38) research or was it his experience he was he was talking about that and then I found somewhere else he didn't create the pyramid and then heard David Rock talk about um actually you know kind of physical pain and mental pain or kind of the same thing so you know he said basow got it wrong and I I remember shouting at that podcast going yes I thought so you know kind that kind of thing I Mas maslo I'm always intrigued when maslo Pops in a leadership development course and so why why is it there what what are
(14:07) people going to do with that you know is is it there because it's always been there or or is is a facilitator going to allow a conversation around this is how we can practically use maslo you know that that kind of thing so yeah maslo is one that I I can like question I I I have got a favorite go-to one which um been it's been around since since the 40s but I I just love I love it both its Simplicity but also how it changes every with every situation and that's um Lin's force field analysis you know when I
(14:44) when I first came across that I was I was just like whoa this makes so much sense and then I saw it kind of turned around so it's like the the equilibrium bit was was was was sort of like um vertically aligned vertic rather than horizontally and I was like wow this this this makes it even more accessible yeah so like as practitioners we have a responsibility don't we because we're we're shaping people's world like how they see the world so you know it doesn't take much research to look into
(15:16) some of these models to S there's not a lot of empirical evidence that supports it is there yeah we we we we can easily propose them to you know a group of people that don't necessarily think about this kind of world very much so we of the main inputs into their world about how they see a thing yeah and we're not on Solid Ground it's not it's not NE it's more like a heuristic kind of kind of feels right therefore it should be right as well yeah yeah no absolutely and and especially if the
(15:44) person sharing it is is quite charismatic and there's one particular model I'm thinking of and S like really engaging you know kind really kind of sold and really good storing and like years later it's like God that model is just like there's no basis in that model whatsoever you know it's it's that one where we 7% of what we hear 20% of what we speak that that one or is it morabia yeah that that's just yeah yeah yeah I didn't want to say that and but yeah I I can remember I can remember the day I
(16:19) was first introduced to that and who was doing it and where were and and what he drew on the flip chart as well you know it's it's really compelling a really compelling way to get a message across is just not a correct message you've done a lot of the setting up of the L&D inputs for the cipd and the cipd Prides itself on being evidence-based that's a huge responsibility isn't it to be sort of shaping the programs around things like situational leadership and what like what's your process for choosing
(16:46) what goes in and and and because that must be really hard wasn't it so so yes so um I I was responsible for the portfolios around Learning and Development and organization design and development um and it was it the so the people we worked with people we commissioned you been really kind of targeted about who who those people were you know in terms of thinking around their credibility their their research they they done the the kind of the their ongoing um that ongoing uh commitment to their own self-development so where they
(17:24) were sharing where where where they' learned stuff um as as well so so are a few factors around how we identified people to to to to work with um and also kind of the what that meant for you know my own development in terms of keeping up to date reading stuff reading the research yeah kind of looking for you know you read a piece of research and and and you're looking for holes in it all the time you know it's like well is this right how do we know this you know can how do we know that to be true you
(17:56) know where's the data to back this up so yeah so lots answer questions as you were reading things to to make sure and you know you we we we did have to say a few times to to people who we were asking to come on and and and so we we videoed a few people and we we had to say a few times look um I know you're a big fan of this but please don't mention it um yeah that kind of thing and uh yeah I I I remember having yeah one very interesting conversation with someone who's extremely well respected extremely
(18:28) well known it's like you know I really love this piece of work what you're doing and we're really excited about what this could do and love the research around that so can you talk about that and not this and um yeah that was that was quite a quite a moment so one of the things we wanted to talk to you about was kind of the interplay of L&D and OD and how the two kind of fields can work together more cohesively what are your thoughts on that so yeah I I think there's there's lots of scope and lots
(18:53) of opportunity for for data and insights to to to to to cross between the the the two disciplines um so if you think about Learning and Development you've got you've got the traditional learning cycle of of needs analysis design delivery and evaluation as the as the four areas of the circle um and I think there's a there's some elements of that that Learning and Development do where they do it really really well that organization development can can benefit and embrace so from a a a design point
(19:29) interview for instance um there's there's lots of options in in the design element and and this is one of the distinctions I think between a training function and a learning function so a training function will default put a a training course on a learning function we'll look at you know kind of okay there's a need here what are the options we've got um so in the design phase they'll they'll look at you know could we could we do um you know it might be a podcast it might be a it might be an
(19:58) infographic it might be a a small piece of um e-learning or it might actually need a need a a bit more of a formal course wraparound on it and or there might be a blend of those Solutions so I think in terms of where organization development has got to put some interventions on with the employees then you know partnering up with um Learning and Development to find out what options are available the design phase could work really really well and also the the concept of not throwing content at people um but actually thinking around
(20:32) how we can have a meaningful two-way dialogue where where individuals do feel that they're um involved in in the process design is is definitely one um one area where where we can where we can help uh our organization develop colleagues another area is um in the evaluation process so evaluation obviously a big part of organization development as um as kind of reflect on the success or otherwise of any intervention one of the things that I've noticed in my career in learning development as a as as a as a trainer
(21:08) and then as an L&D consultant and then you know undertaking lots of facilitation in a in a training course in a learning event people employees tell you stuff that they tell you their reality they tell you that they can be brutally honest and say this won't work who Dred this up this this will never work in a month as on it or you know all you know kind of like right I was I came in here and I wasn't quite sure but I get it now however I'm worried about x y and Zed there's a the there's a
(21:37) wonderful there's a wonderful lady Dr Ena vinow H highle who's who's done some work on the um impact 12 leevers of of of learning impact so she she talks around in a training event asking the asking the the employees what is the likelihood of them transferring this learning into the workplace and th those insights I think those insights that the honesty that you get from employees is really useful data and and and really useful insights that that can be worked upon in in any kind of organization
(22:14) development program so yeah just how we can harness that not saying you know oh you know bred over there said this and and I over there said that you know none of that but these are the things that are are going on you know in relation to this subject there's also an opportunity to help cocreate the evaluation stage of the O OD intervention so things like um brinkhof success case study so the organizations what use brov success success casely method they can they can really help OD OD practitioners with
(22:51) that and models like Sim M eight levels so going Beyond um so lots of learning development practitioners will say yeah we use Kurt Patrick it's questionable whether they use all of Kurt Patrick but Val Heimer takes Kurt Patrick to another level and and talks around where there's really impactful opportunities to um to to transfer that learning transfer that those skills transfer that behavior back into the workplace so I think there there there's some opportunity and Synergy there what advice have you got
(23:24) so if You' got an organization where L and d and OD are quite siloed and they're not they're not kind of integrated what advice would you give to an organization that wants to integrate them more where would you start both formally and informally yeah so um encourage encourage people to to to talk to each other um encourage people to share experiences yeah i' I'd encourage it both formally and informally so um getting them together in in in in a room or or on screen um and yeah but also encourage the relationship building
(23:57) informally um after all you know they they they they should have a common purpose in in their organization you know in terms of driving you know driving organization performance through its people that there should be that common purpose um so yeah how can we um how can we you know come together to um to deliver what we've got to deliver one of my favorite um one of my favorite themes in a film is um in Apollo 13 so where you got um you've got the bit where they realize the the filter doesn't work it's fitting a square peg
(24:35) into a round hole they get a group of people together and say look we've got to fit this into this with this and then tell them um what it is and you know that it it it's that kind of mentality to to to break down silos you know kind of it's look you know kind of together collectively we've got to do what what we need for the organization with the tools we've got what can we do and in 13 you get someone there saying right we're going to need coffee and puts the coffee on and then he gets someone going oh you
(25:05) know it wasn't meant for this and he's well no it wasn't but this is the reality we're facing today so let's get on with it yeah so that having that kind of a poll of 13 approach let we're all this in in this together let's do something together as make our teams are horribly silid aren't they but the the organization doesn't care you know I mean it's like whether you're paying reward or whether you're the generalists or whatever it's like it's about offering a seamless Service as well yeah
(25:32) absolutely yeah and and just the the other thing i' I'd say to that if you're not if if you're listening to this or watching this and and you are siloed but there isn't anyone you know kind of taking a lead on that then go underground a little bit and start exploring you know start exploring you making those links yourself and you'll be amazed how many people might follow you so with OD often one of the methods of intervention are things like the workshop and because it is a way to convene people together um and OD often
(26:03) opens up a new type of space for people to talk in a different way so it'll be able to transcend hierarchy or laterally bring two different teams together and it's a new type of talk in that particular moment and it's often feels quite cathartic for the people in there because people are able to talk in a new way but then we go back to the baau back to our places and people feel good about what happened but it doesn't operationalize the change and we have to get into the habits and the rituals and
(26:34) the disciplines of that what what what can L & D sort of teach OD because sometimes OD can get caught a little bit on the Showmanship of the the wonderful event but not the really important bit afterwards that that that's a really good question it's th point for for learning development as well I think there's a number of things that that need to happen around it so um where the interventions of one off um and especially if it's done um where people are coming in so you might have a team
(27:07) of you might have a you might be managing a I don't know a team of 10 15 people and you're 10 15 people go to intervention spread over the course of a month say yeah so they're they're not having the information at the same time so they're going back into the routine the the normal and and and that makes it much harder for someone to come back especially if the it's it's hard enough for someone to come come back into a team with their early boun saying hey I've had this really great session it's
(27:41) really good it's going to be amazing you know there's going to be some great stuff and they're faced with a load of people going you are well what do you mean it's going to be great you know convincing I'm not seeing that he's a training yeah that's it yeah's he's a trading you know so if if if you're an extrovert and you're facing es like that imagine what it's like if if you're an introvert and coming back to the team is there's no way I can I can do any of
(28:05) that you know I've got to keep my mouth shut and carry on so I think there's something around how teams are are kind of put through for one of a better phrase put through the interventions are they done collectively and and and how is the how is the manager engaged in that in that in that process as well so very often the manager gets a bad rap you know kind of lots of think oh if only those pesky managers would do this um but actually how do we engage with the managers and that goes back to the leadership and
(28:38) management training we we we we we do with them do we actually give them enough space and time to explore that development side of of of their team or the the the way they can put a comm's message together to to to support the business or the way they can deal with someone who's dissenting for for where the organizations's going what's really catching your attention in the field at the moment what what's exciting you about the future of so I I had a I had a buzzing conversation with with some in
(29:09) my network um last week um he's got a a big project on um working on the skills agenda um looking at kind of the skills within uh within different functions and um he's using artificial intelligence to do a lot of the leg work and and said I mean it's a big project but said it's an incredible amount of time is saved through using AI for that and it's like wow you tell tell me more about this but yeah it's s like using using AI asking asking AI to to to come up with some some templates and Frameworks and and
(29:50) then checking them actually no that's not quite right so here you know here's some more criteria that you need to to to consider AI and then taking that back to his stakeholders the stakeholders going wow this is this is brilant this is what we need how do we do that then using AI to to help populate what would a an ideal scenario look like so the a lot of the leg work in terms of you know interviewing lots of people around specific skills of what they're needed he's just gone straight to AI to do a
(30:22) troll of you know if it's purchasing let's look at the purchasing profession and see what purchasing profession has seen and using AI to troll that to come back to then say you know is this the standard you want to move purchasing forward in in in this organization so yeah so that is that that that can be massively massively exciting for any OD intervention where kind of looking at the range of skills needed for for now and the future how AI can really help with that I think it's fair to say not
(30:51) everybody's excited about AI in this space feel quite threatened yeah yeah absolutely but it's like my view of AI is is look if we can use AI to free up the talent we've got in our organizations to do what we recruited them to do rather than getting bogged down in in in lots of things that we didn't recruit them to do but are necessary to do the job then let's use AI to do that you know kind of let's use AI to you know because because if AI wasn't there what what what what this guy would have had to do was to search
(31:24) through the purchasing you know kind of the all the purchasing um professional bodies look at what are the common standards um and and then start writing them typing them physically doing that but he you know he got AI to do that in in half an hour um so you know freed up the time what's the most important bit of that of the work he was doing there agreeing the standards with the stakeholder so it it got to the stakeholder a lot quicker the conversation had with the stakeholder was was was was a lot more insightful
(31:56) than he said it might have been if just um you know kind of done his own bit of research because he he didn't know what he didn't know so yeah it's got the power to do some amazing things we just need to be confident to experiment with it and not not worry that it's going to take away from us but where can we add to it yeah and sometimes the things that maybe hold us back out because we wouldn't know what to do if we had the time yes that kind of nebulous stuff I I interest to hear your view as well
(32:23) because like over the last 20 years one of the things that's Contin to surprise me like there's loads of examples of good practice but EX I see quite a lot is where you have the organization strategy and then you have the L&D thing kind of over here but not necessarily connected to or informing of and there's often a disconnect between the strategy of the organization where we need to be what capabilities we need to develop and the role of L &d actually saying as is well this is where we are that's fine
(32:52) these are the gaps you got to fill and this is how we're going to do it what what is your hypothesis about why that happens and is it something that you see a lot yeah so there is it it boils down to what what is the philosophical stance of learning in an organization so is it about education or is it about organization performance so in those organizations where it's about education you will see statements in the learning strategy like we want everyone to be the best they can be we have to ask ourselves is that right for the
(33:25) organization performance you know everyone being the best can be is it's it's it's it's on the surface a wonderful ambition but actually first of all can we can we achieve that secondly do people want to be the best they can be you know CU sometimes people are like no do you know what I'm at an age and a stage where I I I I I want to make sure I do enough to get my wage at the end of the month um and I could do more but right now I don't want to do more I haven't got that capacity to to to dive
(34:00) into that whereas we've got a learning Str no you can be so much more than this you can do but actually learning needs to be there to learning development needs to be there to to enable people to perform how the organization needs them and then um you know in in terms of that statement around we want people to be the best they can be very often it'll have things like oh yes an access to external education so but what's the reality that people can access that external education i' I've been luy a
(34:29) few times in my career where i' I've been supported by my employer to do to to do a qualification but there have been periods of my employment where I've not been able to access that and and and you know been told either there's not enough funding or it's not job critical um and I say what it didn't say job critical in the strategy you know in in the policy it said you know kind of you know give us a give us a you know give us a business case why end up giving you a business case you know what do you
(34:59) mean you've run out of mon it doesn't say we've only got 10 grand and that's two cses out the way you know so so so can people actually access the things that are written in the strategy so um yeah I think there's a disconnect but it all boils down to what is the belief system of what Learning and Development is for in an organization really important yeah it's not a conversation that's had kind of or articulated very often because it's it's something that we done for years and years and years
(35:30) and it you know kind of the term learning is something we all do you know we we've done it ever since well at least the day we were born and there's a lot of theory to say we learn before we're born you know so so it's like yeah we all know what learning is um so the there's that little barrier that we've got to you know we've got to try and get across yeah yeah yeah that's learning workplace learning however we need to consider this this and this what do you enjoy most about the work you do what
(35:56) really excites you what really excites me um talking Learning and Development um yeah what really excites me is is um oh so um when you get into uh when you start exploring other people's reality yeah and um then start exploring possibilities from that yeah I I get I I do get a real Buzz from um exploring with with people around where their possibilities could go um and in terms of um whether that be through coaching whether that be through mentoring whether that be through um being asked for advice but yeah just
(36:42) just that sense of where can we go from here I know when we spoke in the preall for this you talked about train the trainer and how that's kind of getting into and in in in terms of a train the trainer kind of love love working on on on any project where where I'm asked to work on help on on train the trainer project that whole you know kind of look in you know beyond that word trainer um uh it kind of help helping people to to see the the Realms of possibility I was um I was I was with with one group of
(37:15) one group of people and talking about um digital opportunities uh for for delivering a message and that there was a couple of people that were sat next to each other and they both sat there arms fold all through the morning and they they did some very practical things you know they did some very very practical things and you know they're say you're telling me that you know kind of you can replace me by putting a piece of e learning on and it's like no no no no no no so so um it's like you know when
(37:48) you're with that person you know so imagine so um imagine it's a set of driving instructors for example this kind of closest I can give without naming the organization but that it's like as a driving instructor is the learner driving the car all the time or are you ped up somewhere talking to the person and explaining some stuff um and the guys went be equ yeah yeah we are so right what it and and what does the employee want most well in the driving instructor example they want to be driving the most yeah right okay what if
(38:24) the time you're with them they could be driving all the time but beforehand you give them an infographic you give them a podcast you give them a maybe a piece of e-learning maybe not but but something so some of that stuff you're constantly talking around can be done there and that frees you up for the other person to be driving all the time and then suddenly you saw their arms unfold and they kind of looked at each other went like that and and so I I love those moments where you can help people see another way through a a problem that
(38:59) they that they've gotten their facing so yeah and and train the trainer is is is one Avenue with that obviously you've had a really a fascinating career working in some really interesting context and helping organizations work out some really difficult challenges what are some of the biggest lessons you've learned along the way oh um so some of the biggest lessons um when someone says don't open that kind of worms um I learned um the hard way um not to say oh okay but to say tell me a bit more about that can worms
(39:36) because actually you know whatever I do if we don't if we don't address that kind of worms um anything you work on is is not going to be a success and you know if your name's attached to it then um yeah you know it's like well you know we could have told you this W work because of this you know it's okay um yeah so when anyone says that phrase or phrases like that yeah don't go down there don't don't go down that cly s it's like no come on tell me a bit more another one was um don't don't don't let
(40:09) other people project their views onto you so um I I used to have quite a commute so I live in Doncaster and when I worked for the cipd my desk was in Wimbledon um and actually there are times where I miss my commute because I could do I could do all sorts of stuff on that commute and I I really you know I really valued that time it it was a bit bit of time for me and actually that commute got me back into running so yeah but loads of people would say oh you must hate it you know oh what how do you get here so early you must get you know
(40:40) go your sleep kind of thing but yeah they would project their views of their commute especially because they were like you know in a in a two Carriage train all the way from Brighton into and then you it was horrendous for them but it wasn't for me so yeah don't don't let other people um project their views on on to you be be up for saying No actually that's not my reality how do you kind of invest in your own Learning and Development what does that look like for you at the moment I I am I am wasn't but I can
(41:09) answer that question where I know some of my peers would be going oh well um um so um there's a few things I I thought I was I thought I was really good at um habit learning habits but um I was on a podcast about 18 months ago with nickel who wrote a book called learning habits and um I was I was blown away by some of the stuff in there it's like oh wow you know I've never thought that never thought that and one of the things she she says that I I I I worked into my rhythm is she said don't start your
(41:43) morning opening your emails so that that just especially if it's like a sense of dread um start your morning learning something so I I've worked really hard to put that into my rhythm so yeah it made me watch in a short video on uh a particular thing in PowerPoint to learn more about PowerPoint for instance it may be listening to a podcast it maybe um reading a a blog post on on on LinkedIn um that kind of thing but I I always do something that has a learning Edge to it before I um before I open my emails so it just got to mind in in in a
(42:23) in a different state um so yeah so so that that that's one habit I've embraced from from being exposed to to to SAR nickel and and learning habits um the other is reflection and and I know this is a big p what I've Loved about working with with all the people I've come across in in organization development is the the strength of reflecting in reflect reflective and reflexive practice and taking that time out to to to reflect I was um did some work with Professor Tony Wall um nearly well over
(42:58) 18 months ago now um and the really great group of um organization development practitioners in the room and I was I was I was really kind of honored and humbled to to to to to be in the room with them but one of the things that someone said there in terms of doing reflection and reflective practice was you know consider how you can hand write your Reflections rather than going straight to typing and and that was a big that that was a big win for me out out out of those few days um yeah just handwriting some of our
(43:30) Reflections which then reinvests oh actually I need to explore this I need to explore this so that that reinvests in the learning so yeah I've done some big big programs as as as you mentioned right in the introductions but also kind of those little regular rhythms to to to make sure that I'm um yeah I can stay up to date and current in a practice do you want to ask the one about recommendation yeah we always like to is there a particular book or a podcast or something else you'd recommend to others
(44:01) there's uh learning development practice the fifth edition coming up uh November 2025 as as well so um yeah so look I I I mentioned Apollo 13 um earlier on so um and and there's lots of examples in in adjacent learning around um around um film and theater what what we can learn what can learn from that so um kind of a couple of things I've mentioned Apollo 13 but so hidden figures so if you think about the Leadership Lessons From both Apollo 13 and um hidden figures there's lots and lots of Leadership Lessons we
(44:37) can take from there you know there's a wonderful quote um by uh the character Jin CR played by Ed Harris who when they're talking around just before the um Ju Ju Ju Just Before Paul 13 comes back into the Earth's atmosphere um someone saying this this could be our biggest disaster and and Jin crant says with all due respect sir I think this could be our finest hour and so that reframing and you using using films to think around how we can reframe things and and and how we can Embrace Leadership Lessons so there's a
(45:10) wonderful scene in Hidden figures where um the the the the the manager says to the character where do you disappear to and she said you know kind of the the the bathroom that I can use is is so far away and he taks a sledgehammer to the white only bathroom side you know just that that sense of um you know kind of leadership in action and and and leading from the front so yeah that those two films there great leadership examples more I I I guess more down to um to the practice of of Learning and Development yeah there I am
(45:45) a massive fan of the Mind TOS podcast they've just done a bit of a cringey Christmas edition uh which um which which is quite funny uh but a little bit cringey but quite funny but what I love about the Mind tools podcast and and and I think this is something we can we can all share wider is they they explore a topic each week um for about 30 minutes on linked to learning and performance but then at the end of it they had this what have I learned this week so they have a regular conversation about stuff they've learned and it can be it can be
(46:21) um work related non-w work related learning related non-learning related although everything is learning uh and I'm I'm a massive advocate of that just let's talk about learning let's talk about what we've learned and if organizations want a learning culture well they've already got a learning culture it just may not be the one they want but if organizations want a positive learning culture then embracing that mind tools question what have I learned this week can work wonders if if we introduce it into team meetings if we
(46:50) if we introduce it into into into you know any session we've got with employees in front of us what if we learned this week and and just really embracing the fact that people have learned not judging what they've leared um you know that's the important thing once you start judging oh you did what you you didn't know that once you start judging that then that's going to turn the culture you want into the opposite direction what advice would you give someone considering a career in organization development so they may be
(47:20) the foothills of their career that maybe consider it as an option there may be an L &d person who's frustrating go there must be another way there must be way yeah yeah um um yeah so there's there's there's three things I would say the the the three things I would say don't don't be put off by the varying definitions and the models out there um and don't go in with that attitude it's all theoretically heavy um find a model that you can connect with and use it as as a starting framework so
(47:56) you know kind of in Terms so yeah there's there is a lot written about urbanization development there there's a huge amount but yet start start small but start somewhere don't be put off by by the vast array of stuff and all the all the different definitions that we've got the this the second thing the second thing and this is where a model really really helped me the Mackenzie 7s model what what really helped me do this is It's the McKenzie 7s model for me allowed me to ask lots of questions
(48:26) against each of those seven essays it allowed me to ask loads of questions um and I was able to answer a lot of those questions as well but it what what I then what what I then um had a conversation with someone and and and and she said how do you know that to be true and that was like oh that was like a big moment for me so anyone you coming into it you know have have that question in your head all the time how do we know this to be true um and and so really kind of keep asking that you because you'll une some wonderful wonderful
(48:59) insights and data just by how do we know this to be true so you use that question and the third thing um the third thing and kind of alluded to it a couple of times in in in the conversation dive into some of the stuff about use of self as instrument of change so thinking about your own your own role the what are the biases and attitudes you bring you know what are the stories you tell about managers about certain groups of employees about how a policy is or isn't adhered to what what stories do you tell
(49:32) around that and then kind of look at use of self as instrument of change and thinking am I positively impacting on this change or am I negatively impacting on on on on this approach um yeah it that's really powerful for for me so yeah that they're the three things brilliant brilliant really practical advice and just want to say a huge thank you it's been a really really fascinating conversation um you can definitely s see the the ways in which l& D can complement the practice of OD and it feels like there's a whole wealth
(50:01) of resources out there as well if people want to follow your work you are an author you are busy writing at the moment we'd love to know more about your secrets how you do it what what's fully work and also just keep up to date with the latest M you do a lot of work for kogan paage don't you who want I sort the made yeah so yeah so I've I've got an author page on kogan page um find me on LinkedIn um currently I'm I'm posting something every day from 1st of December to 24 to December 2024 obviously kind of
(50:29) that will have happened but you can find that on the # LD Advent or David at Talent delivers. co.uk it's been a great conversation Denny what are you taking away from it it's a really long list of things I'm taking away and I've got loads spark loads of ideas which I've been scrolling down but I think some of the key things are being really Discerning about the models and Frameworks we introduce people to and just holding those very lightly and and carefully what you said about seeing people is more than just their roles and
(50:53) really being aware of who people that are working with us are and what they can bring in from outside I love the Apollo 13 approach as well kind of We're In This Together kind of put your put your silos to one side and just focus on the the thing we're trying to sort and work together I think we've been tough on M though I I woke up today been very self [Laughter] actualized I'd gone up through the levels and I was right there d d to all those things actually and there there's there's a couple of things you just said
(51:21) and right at the very end um which has really stuck with me and I think this deserves more explanation which is all organizations have a learning culture it just might not be the one that they want and I think that's really important that's just such an important question to think what is it what are we doing because we just hear you know it's safe to fail that overly tired rhetoric isn't it but is it and do we take the time because we're so busy to actually take the learnings from it or do we just keep
(51:49) rinsing and repeating over and over again as well and the other thing I want to do some more exploration having been someone who's done extensive work with Kirk Patrick and slavishly followed the four levels five depending on your Viewpoint the levels the fact there are other models that that's definitely Des exp and and the importance of co-creating it yes yeah yeah yeah so you so you build the evaluation into the architecture of the intervention that sounds really really valuable there's there's so much value in this and we
(52:17) really recommend you read adjacent learning it's a it's a really good book and it's really readable and accessible as well David thank you so much you've been a really joyful person to bring on you brought so much energy and passion and I hope it's ignited the people that are watching this a passion to go back the first principles of L &d and see how it can actually really guide your OD practice as well so thank you so much it's been a great session um if you've enjoyed this U we'd love it if you hit
(52:42) the like button and we're still trying to grow the channel the channel is growing really nicely at the moment we're big in India now Danny and we're big in Germany Germany who knew um but we'd love it if you subscribe and also if you're watching this you think someone really get some value from hearing Dey talk about Learning and Development and OD and Ai and all those brilliant things that he's covered today then please do feel to share it with them as well we'd love that but most of
(53:07) all thank you so much David we know you're really busy U and this we're recording this literally the last day before Christmas so this will be going out sometime in January have a wonderful Christmas David and happy New Year both thank you very much for me thank you thank you so much thank you he [Music]