Scaling Without Breaking with Jules Siegel-Hawley - OrgDev Episode 54

What is job architecture? How can it support transformation? How do you help a company grow fast without losing what makes it special? What’s the secret to navigating big changes like merging teams or restructuring? 

💼 Jules Siegel- Hawley, Founder & Principal Consultant
Andes

Andes website:
https://www.andesadvisory.co/

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Jules Siegel-Hawley is the Founder of Andes, a consultancy specialising in scalable, agile people infrastructure for high-growth startups and enterprises undergoing transformation. With deep expertise in organisation design, people strategy, and change leadership, she helps companies navigate complex transitions and rapid scaling while maintaining operational efficiency and a strong company culture.

At Andes, Jules partners with companies at critical inflection points—whether they are scaling rapidly, integrating post-acquisition, or restructuring teams. Taking an embedded approach, she and her team go beyond advising, offering fractional leadership and hands-on support to ensure people operations align with business strategy.

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Transcript

(00:00) hi welcome to the org Dev podcast how do you help a company grow fast without losing what makes it special what's the secret to navigating big changes like merging teams or restructuring today we're absolutely delighted to welcome Jules seagull Hy today who works hands on with organizations to tackle challenges like these and build strong adaptable teams now Jules is founder and Prince consultant at Andy and she's a senior strategic advisory role at medicine San Frontier or Doctors Without Borders jores has a fascinating career
(00:31) leading organizational Transformations for high growth companies and evolving Enterprise focusing on designing scalable people systems her work includes organization design people strategy and postacquisition integration previously she's worked at Tega which is a global Healthcare Consulting and services company as vice president of organization transformation and development and so she has a fascinating background but and even more fascinating is that she started a career in clinical social work in the US where
(01:00) she has a masters of social work from Columbia University and this has given her a unique perspective and approach to her work which we'll explore in more detail today and Jules is a truly Global Cosmopolitan traveler she splits her time between New York and Europe and is currently based in Brussel so thank you so much for making time today Jes we're absolutely delighted that you can join us I'm thrilled to be here and I Lov that introduction thank you so much [Music] brilliant to have you with us we we're
(01:34) really excited about this conversation just kick us off just tell us a bit about the work that you do everything has an organization transformation bent to it I would say and how I really break that down is it's organization design people's strategy and then looking at the change leadership that ties it all together because there's a lot of change that comes with this stuff more recently I've been working in the Learning and Development space at Doctors Without Borders which has been really fascinating I uh support with the design
(02:04) and implementation of the medical and operations trainings for our field staff so that's been kind of a steady a steady focus and constant I also support external clients as part of Andes working with org design and org transformation my bread and butter I like to say is job architecture which is really the fundamental layer of org design it's kind of the nitty-gritty technical part where you're looking at roles core accountabilities compensation strategy Etc once you have that in place you can build and get more Innovative
(02:38) looking at Performance Management Employee Engagement employee on boarding all that other stuff so I think of or design as that job architecture piece and then I think of people strategy as what you're able to build on top of it um and so that's that's something I'm I'm kind of working with quite a few clients at the moment U helping them in various phases of their growth and of their evolution I like to say I think that transformation can sometimes scare people so their evolution yeah it's a
(03:06) big word isn't it transformation it is it is and are the particular type you know when the work with Andes is there a particular type of sector that you work in or types of organizations like you said I got my start in the humanitarian space um and was working internationally I'm obsessed with this concept of implementing or I guess defining and implementing a common Vision across disperate contexts so the humanitarian space was great to do that cuz you have these Global contexts and everything is just so that was really cool I
(03:36) discovered the tech startup space when I was working at teega we were merging about six or seven Tech startups together into one one company and that's where I realized that I had found my people because it actually had there was such symmetry parallel can be drawn between the work at Doctors Without Borders where you're really building something from nothing you're kind of saying F all of this red tape just going to make this thing happen give me a Q-tip and a rock let's go uh and I felt the same energy and the same creativity
(04:08) when I was working with the tech startup um people and so that is what I've been gravitating toward in my Andy's work my brand to really be focusing on those I I say series a series B companies that are are looking to scale quickly and reinforce or build out entirely their people infrastructure brilliant and I love the the parallels between the two contexts which might really different you know you expain so different but like yeah there it's it's sort of it's It's creativity is like at the root of
(04:37) it and sort of a dreamer mindset because you're working with different kind of people in different Tech startup spaces do they you you see like a common theme between them are they facing the same challenges uh yes I mean they're all looking to scale up quickly a lot of times they you know have have been very organic in their growth and so they're they're often really looking for that h that's a dirty word expertise that that people strategy expertise to come in and really help them and reassure them
(05:07) here's what you need to do X Y and Z I think that there's often I would say a theme that I feel is like this angst around angst and then avoidance around the kind of legal aspects the compliance aspects that come with this kind of work and so they they actually just don't bother with it and they don't know how to have these conversations either it just feels very hot but and so that's one of the things that I'm constantly doing I would say no no matter what we're talking about there's there's
(05:36) always I'm kind of reassuring and like providing a template and a road map for how do we get you on the road to compliance how do we how do we make this into a healthy organization where you're not avoiding these conversations and then just letting things grow organically that's literally a Silver Thread or a golden thread through everything so we're we're actually recording this interview in the UK it's business planning season now so the organization should that should have really started a couple of months
(06:05) earlier now starting to get really into it and the one constant about most strategies or business plans what you're looking at is about getting bigger and scaling very few business plans forecast or loss ever what do organizations get wrong about scan because it's such a seductive word isn't it like we want to be bigger and but it like where does it start where does it start to go wrong or where can the companies start to get it right so I would say it's crucial in general but in this as an answer to this
(06:35) question for sure to have a robust strategy that you're going to use as your foundation to then scale from like you're not just scaling to scale and I find that often I come in and they they have maybe a windfall or yeah I mean it's usually they've gotten some some kind of cash infusion they're looking to scale up and they have investors and they they need to demonstrate that they are grow that this is happening so I would say business strategy is really the input that a lot of people are
(07:05) missing but I would also say I would also say it's about the people infrastructure so it's not just about going and hiring a bunch of people and bringing them on board there there really needs to be intentionality behind the thing there needs to be dare I say a journey that that these newcomers are going to are going to be embarking on with you as a company and so for me it really starts at that micro micro level the job architecture making sure that you have have the roles the roles and clear accountabilities in place that
(07:34) your your teams are able to have the conversations around how to onboard how to keep your employees engaged and really make sure that they can tie what every individual is doing back up to that bigger picture strategy you really want to create a cohesive hole and so often what we see is is people kind of stepping out in silos moving fast and breaking stuff which I'm like all for coming from where I come from but actually I'm quite meticulous in that there's a there's a real template that needs to be followed to ensure that that
(08:05) we're doing this in a safe and effective way in the Prem we spoke you talked about often with these new startups they feel like they're stuck and everything feels urgent and it's like where do we go next everything's the world's on fire where do we where do we start 100% well that that comes up all of the time for sure and so it's basically you're you're moving too fast to be able to do things in an intentional way and actually you're just creating more mess and I've
(08:28) seen it again and again and really the big the big thing for me is making sure that there's a really clear business strategy that's what I but like without that you're not tied to anything nothing nothing ties back up to the overall purpose and then people kind of it falls apart the the bottom of the the cake falls through it's like we're we're missing the flower how do you get people to slow down cuz you said moving too fast we see all the time of the work we do and there's almost this resistance to
(08:56) slowing down it's like no we need to keep going we need to go go go go how you get slow down to do the thinking yes that's one of the bigger challenges of the job I would say especially because often the people side of this is seen I don't want to be incendiary but it's a little bit more of an afterthought we need to get our Revenue up we need to we need to you know expand it to Emerging Markets like you know all this kind of jargon comes into play and then I come in as the cool strategic people person
(09:24) not the HR girl and and it's really a conversation where I have to be incredibly thoughtful and clear what the next steps are I have to be really tactical I can't be talking about Journeys let me say that I it has to be like okay in order to do this we need to do that and often it's yeah it's it's a really fine line to walk because they want to move fast and so I try to also and time has helped and experience has helped me to really say okay this is the core of what needs to happen and and
(09:53) here's how I can get you from A to B without everyone crossing the Finish Line bleeding and Bruise but from A to B and this amount of time and so it might even be um it's one of the bigger challenges that I face and I've been playing a lot with different engagement models that could actually like help to um help to get people bought into what I'm selling basically and so and so it's really about coming in and being able to demonstrate value quickly finding out what are the quick wins and then putting
(10:23) together a a detailed yet simple kind of um framework for how we're going to be moving forward and here's what you're going to get at each key Milestone so being super practical super tactical and then also selling kind of the vision behind the thing but I will say it's one of the bigger challenges of of the role that's so interesting and you picked on something which is just a parental issue for HR isn't it and Dan and I were literally talking just before the call with a with a company we just started
(10:49) working with and you know the people strategy has been written for HR to to then go and act rather than sort of engaging you in the process and what you're inviting them to do is quite a change how does an organization know that they need someone like you in there to come in and do a thing because you're you're really going to provide structure you're going to build the chassis for which to do the the work in aren't you yeah usually it's when an organization has gotten into trouble and they that's
(11:17) how you GNA say that like the the compliance piece has reared its ugly head it's also so far been Word of Mouth like people know me they know what I can do they've worked with me in the past like I've made some pretty good networking context just with the diverse people that I've worked with but I'm trying to get the word out more let me just say because it's not top of mind to call me it but I can tell you that if there's been an incident some kind of legal compliance incident that's
(11:44) definitely a trigger and then really by just trying to get with people in the in the tech startup space I've been making connections and people are like oh you should think about this person one of the models that I'm looking at is because I I recognize that what I talk that this stuff is kind of scary for people and it's like again it's talking about transformation and it's like is it transformation is it Evolution I'm trying to sell myself more as like a fractional chro support or like
(12:12) strategic transformation person but coming in as more of a fractional embedded member of their leadership team you get this this expertise for the cost of a of an analyst let's say and we can set really clear timelines that there's flexibility for them they don't feel like they're overc committing to something thing and I'm very flexible like I was saying in my in in what how we structure the engagement so we could do things from okay you want to reinforce your job architecture you want to build a compensation strategy and
(12:41) they want to stand up a corresponding Performance Management program those are three distinct modules we can do them one module over the course of three months we can stop reassess see where we are so I'm really trying to break things down and into digestible chunks for those that really are kind of on the fence or feeling like I don't know I don't want to spend money on something I'm not sure what I'm getting into other other model that I'm really interested in that I was talking about is the
(13:04) fractional Leadership Model and that would be more like an like an annual contract we come in we develop your people strategy for the year and I help execute on that strategy and usually I would be partnering with your people director or your people team that's already in place doing a strategic advisory kind of reinforcing making sure that they're all on track providing Consulting uh coaching support for key leaders things like this it's just it's hard it's it's it's really trying to
(13:31) it's it's definitely a space you sort of have to claw your way into and so I'm trying to figure out what works and what is like the least intimidating for people and so for now I'm just staying super flexible and seeing what strikes people but what sticks cuz we love definition on this because I think there's so many words out there that they don't we don't truly have an agreement about what they mean and for you what does job architecture mean to you like what what does it actually
(13:55) entail yeah so I got into job architecture through c s without orders and I was an implementor of this new job architecture that that they came out with that um corn very came in and supported them in designing for me job architecture is the role with the core accountabilities that falls into a standard leveling framework with a common language to accompany each level so how I would say it with doctors with our borders because I had to explain this a lot was he would have a nurse in Malawi a nurse in Ukraine a nurse in
(14:26) Lebanon a nurse in Chad and they would all be called different things and they would all be at different levels and they would all have different accountabilities or maybe they would have the same accountabilities but they're there wasn't a cohesive common language so that when we talked about a nurse we all knew this is what we're talking about and so the idea was to implement that and so we came up with core role profile for a nurse slotted them into a level five level six on our on our function grid on the like
(14:55) leveling framework and then from there once you have that in place with the role profile given to the person new contract Etc you're able to do so much when it comes to compensation Equity when it comes to Performance Management when it comes to to upskilling and development which ties to the Performance Management and then really when like if you think about it from a strategic um headquarters perspective you can do do so much more in terms of the analytics of workforce planning and making sure that you have the right
(15:25) people in the right places identifying gaps you're you're reporting just like enhances so much overnight because we're all speaking a Common Language so for me it's it's the it's the foundation of what needs to be in place to really have a a compelling org design infrastructure it's it's the it's the foundation so I guess we we're really curious about your journey into your role and I guess one of the things we're really curious about is like your social work background and
(15:52) how that's informed your work as well so so what has been your process today I went to Colombia about I graduated at 12 13 years ago at this point and I actually did clinical social work I was working with patients I was really interested in healthcare so I was working in a hospital setting by my second year really fascinated with well fascinated with the healthc care system and how it impacted individual lives and what I realized through that program was that I was always looking to influence the system that surrounded whatever
(16:25) problem the person that I was meeting with was facing and so I realized that I as much as I loved the micro and that was sort of like a kind of easy for me really I had this fascination with complex systems and how that would impact the micro like like I just said so so when I left Colombia my first job out of school was with Doctors Without Borders which was a dream organization and I will just say I started at the lowest rung of the totem poll ever I was an admin assistant in their travel department so I was like sending people
(16:59) people to Chad to to Jordan to Afghanistan on like I was booking the flights and doing the Visas that was my first role and what is Doctors Without Borders so some people will be familiar with the organization but maybe not fully what the work is that they do uh so Doctors Without Borders is a leading humanitarian organization it operates in 70 plus countries worldwide it was started by a group of French doctors in the 1970s and they're really about getting access to healthcare no matter what wherever you are in the world like
(17:31) that's the that's the overarching mission and so they send doctors from the west but also we've been doing a big push to do more locally hired staff and get them trained up and really drawing from those resources enhancing the capacity of people that are already on the ground so that we have more of a long-term support structure in place rather than these emergency interventions but the idea is is to provide access to Quality Health care wherever you are in the world for people who need it most Sor I didn't mean to
(17:58) just thought it's such a powerful organization I know I mean my mom was like why are you taking this job and I was like because it's it's an in like this is this organization I just had stars in my eyes and I my plan worked let's just put it that way where really I was able to zigzag through the organization there's a lot of different offices around the world and there's a lot of needs but I really discovered the organization design organization development organization transformation space and I
(18:28) would say that my first real role um within that space was this job architecture implementation role um I was called a mobile implementation officer a Mio and I will tell you nobody else applied for the role it was just me and I was all about it I ended up um it it was it was to answer your question so much of that role I realized like I learned all the technical stuff and I was able to simplify the language create create kind of a a really clear description of the common logic of the of the common Vision why are we doing
(19:03) this but so much of it had a clinical social work bent to it because it was a lot of just onetoone conversations explaining things listening really why I got into it is because it's the most sensitive conversation you can possibly have with anybody I think I've said this to you before uh you're talking about money you're talking about power you're talking about status level and you're doing it you're doing it across the across the globe so working in in Congo versus South Sudan like very different
(19:31) contexts very different cultures and how do you have this conversation how do you engage with people in a way that you can implement this safely um and actually make it not a painful experience but an empowering experience and that was something that honestly came naturally to me because of my clinical social work background I was not afraid of those conversations and actually it was like I just came in with a really open and Earnest spirit and was really there to kind of guide people through this every step of the way the critical piece of it
(20:03) I think would be casting that common Vision making sure that they understood why we were doing this and then making sure that I shephered them I shephered them through the H every step of the way and so we ended up rolling out this thing I think I did 12 countries in about a year and a half um and it was it was very successful obviously you talked about the fact because things like salary are the sacred car and organizations um and often when organizations have been through it afterwards it's quite liberating but the
(20:29) it's the thought of going through that and unearthing all the disparity and inequality and maybe all the secret deals that have been made to entice people in or retain them no insight to but but those are the kind of things that are hidden in the past reward AR what can organizations do to lean into that how has that social work or helped so I'll say that wasn't the case in the humanitarian space it was more about not having that common language and so it just like it happened that people would have a different level
(21:00) or a different it's definitely a thing in the private Tech startup space where you have your your friends that come in and the founder definitely it's it's I think it's the most sensitive part of it and actually maybe I should have started by saying this is like basically when you're talking about Job architecture everybody knows that you're talking about money at the end of the day because whatever role you're tied to on the function grid is going to link up to that role on the salary band or on the
(21:26) salary grid they're two different grids distinct but they do meet at the very end um and this is something I've had to explain to a lot of different people I think I think when you can start to articulate what can be accomplished when you have this Equitable structure and what you can do from a compensation strategy perspective that's when you actually get into the ROI for these more U business-minded people like okay here's you know it's not just it's not just throwing spaghetti at the wall
(21:54) anymore we can actually figure out a clear path for making things quable and then you can talk about that with your staff but it's very sensitive and honestly it's different for everybody cuz everybody's going to be in a different place but I would say it's very important that you train up your managers across the board on what this process looks like and equip them with just key talking points because people are going to ask that they're not going to go to HR well they will eventually but they'll start with their manager and
(22:22) what I've seen again and again is the managers do not know how to have the conversation and they'll escalate it up to HR and I I think really a lot of a lot of calm could come from a manager that understands and buys into whatever system or strategy we're we're putting in place and can speak to the key talking points of it because organizations are constantly lurching between centralized and decentralized and it kind of if you're in an organization long enough you'll see the pendulum swing backwards and forwards
(22:51) how do you because you you're in countries where there's like for example like really high inflation and yes people's situations are all different how do you get the right between centralize all those benefits there but still give the the latitude for managers or whatever to make local decisions how does that get baked into it yeah I would say when we're in the humanitarian space that process is definitely more of a centralized process I can I see decisions get made on a local level they'll actually play with the with the
(23:19) function grid and they'll put someone at a higher level or a higher role than maybe they're prepared for which isn't necessarily a bad thing like I'm all for upleveling like is fine and I can also sometimes definitely say like wait a minute you're being sneaky but um I would say in that case honestly the compensation component is more of a more of a central model you do a benchmarking exercise every x amount of years and people wait for that Benchmark I'll tell you that when it was implementing job
(23:49) architecture the countries that we targeted first as our low hanging fruit were those that were in need of a salary increase due to the latest benchmarking results much easier to to communicate to people that you're a driver going from a level four to a level three if we say but really that doesn't mean anything to your salary rection go up in salary that's a much easier conversation to have and that was what the first way really looked like was targeted countries that that needed a salary an optional question for you so you pass on
(24:19) this one so we had someone on from the NHS obviously is are the UK's we always our beloved institution but it's so big it's not like a million employees one of the things that they sort of found was that is that they have bands in there and that where where it's kind of challenged is that the certain bands can do certain things and so certain bands are excluded from certain Meats how can organizations not create a them and us from this process I mean the bands should speak to the market like it
(24:47) should all be completely data driven and it should be the role with the core accountabilities tied basically what it looks like technical nitty-gritty is we would create the job architecture you would say let's go back to the nurse at a level five I'm not going to Benchmark and say hey other organizations in my sector and in my area what do you pay your level fives no the job architecture is an internal tool that leveling framework is internal I would say hey y'all what are you paying your nurses
(25:17) and then we would gather that information and we would come up with sort of what is the 25th percentile versus the 50th we would create a salary bin based on that data so it's entirely data driven and it's entirely connected to what that role is but I think that it's crucial that people understand that there's real datadriven Integrity behind the creation of those bands and where it's it's an objective conversation is that answering your question yeah yeah I guess sometimes it's like with the El
(25:45) it's become almost like the state is actually attached to the banding so certain bands are then invol but obviously that's a cultural I think you know it's an ongoing cultural challenge that they have within there interesting yeah no well so it's interesting because when I was in the US they were there's all of this there's this big push for salary transparency and making sure that that when you publish a new job description you P publish the band and people are getting around it by publishing these insane bands like 0 to
(26:16) $500,000 which is like that's actually I'm just thinking I was oh I should Target those people because they clearly need more job architecture support and compensation strategy support but I would say that the salary ban conversation is definitely a political one and like I said it's really the kind of black heart of the job architecture conversation cuz it's so intrinsically linked to it um and people you have to demonstrate that you have a common Logic for how you're leveling people and
(26:42) that's like common work Dimensions or common criteria that you're considering that you can speak to and that the process of the matching of a person to whatever role they will have within that job architecture has been done with intentionality and is entirely fair then you have to explain that the salary bands that you've created for your salary grid are also following a similar process of datadriven Integrity but that's a lot to explain to people and I will tell you when you mention money people see red and they actually like
(27:15) can't really even engage with you um and so that was that's like my my clinical social work thing like they're not even able to process what I'm saying and so how do we make it so that this is a clear and um simple conversation where we explain all of this in a way that they can understand it really what I found was it was onetoone conversations where I explain the same Concepts in about 20 different ways depending on who I was talking to but that was that was what did it so it's time intensive and I
(27:46) think energy intensive you have to have kind of the right and I will tell you that a lot of people don't have that energy um or like where we all to engage in those kinds of conversations and so they'll just implement it in a very top down way and that's where you aren't into trouble because these are high-risk conversations these are this this is a high-risk exercise you're looking at Social legal and Financial Risk which again is why organizations or startups kind of just avoid it and act like it's
(28:14) not there and so yeah you have to have the right people in the room to facilitate the this process so gu you you skip that your peril don't you if you say I'm not going to bother with one to on we we haven't got time for that right I think honestly the a real Solution that's like not focusing on one person like I was an implementer of this thing so that was my clear role but really you should be training up your managers to understand the process and be able to have these conversations but they'll be nervous about it and I can
(28:43) talk more about how to prepare them but it's definitely like an education exercise and providing them with the right tools and information to be able to to do it well they need to feel confident yeah can imagine it just once it's actually done and and the difficulty and the pain and the int it catapults the organization forward though doesn't it because it's in it's unreal a cleaner and more clarified God everything become so like the the chaos diffuses and the conversations become so much less subjective and it's it becomes
(29:17) like these objective strategic conversations and it because what you're able to do when this is in place let's talk about the the Performance Management now we have poor accountabilities we have a datadriven approach to what you like where you're supposed to what you're supposed to be doing right and then you can attach that to competencies which is another part of job architecture so these are the competencies for this role you should have a level four of this competency you're only at a level two and so it it
(29:45) really informs how managers should be engaging with their teams it helps us to understand hot spots for upskilling it it's the world cracks wide open and it's very exciting and I'm speaking as a nerd with this but it's very exciting uh organizations come together and like start to embody this new infrastructure and like it just takes a huge weight off of things the transparency like it's just you can feel it this like this is a Equitable Fair organization we stand on this infrastructure that we've built and I'll
(30:22) say so much of like that's that's the end product I think that the process of implement it and this might be clear from how I've been talking but the process of implementing it can actually be a unifying one and a healing one something where you're really bringing the people together to build this thing together to cast this Vision together and that's when we're talking about bringing in disperate companies to come one new company this process should not be done behind closed doors with a bunch
(30:48) of Consultants it should be something that the managers and the leaders are actively engaged with because one that helps them to buy into the thing when they're implementing it but it also is that that collaborative process is really usually the first time that they're starting to come together as as colleagues so the process itself I think can be a healing one what do you enjoy most about the work that you do I like the creative thinking that you have to do and I like having to put myself in people's shoes constantly when I think
(31:20) about how am I going to engage with this group of stakeholders versus this group of stakeholders tailoring the message depending on the level that I'm speaking with or the profile that I'm speaking with and then still making it all tie back to that common Vision that really just gets me excited so I I would say that piece and then I also weirdly geek out about the technical stuff but that's not as fun to talk about and what do you find most challenging so I'm an empathetic person I think think I can
(31:46) and I've gotten so much better about this you guys but like I can absorb sometimes the energy and I think that's not a problem when it's it became an issue when I started working with these big WG Tech honchos kind of very high level very Revenue driven and there was just competing priorities and usually I'm like very methodical and like able to sort of say like it's not my job to make a decision here it's my job to facilitate to te up the decisions to bring whatever the the issue is to the
(32:16) steering committee like you know follow the process follow the governance I still can get kind of Jarred by the competing priorities and the sort of energy that that can accompany that at the at the highest level and again that's like a me being quite vulnerable saying that but that has been my biggest challenge and something that I've been working on yeah well I think it's really owerful people that are watching this because know because we we intentionally set the podcast out so that people can
(32:42) say this work is not easy and no matter how accomplished you are in your career there are still things that we find difficult there's still times when I'm like Danny I think I'm struggling with this I don't know what to do but I think there strength in be able to recognize that isn't there rather than just trying I'm fine I'm okay yeah well I mean you know like we said this is like hot button stuff and I will tell you that the most difficult conversations that I've had is negotiating what the
(33:08) difference is between a VP and an SVP in the US that group was no joke those people and because I mean that's when you're really talking it's it's power it's power it's money and yeah again I'm an empathetic person and I you know I I absorb this to an extent you kind of have to but also obviously you keep up boundaries and things like this but it was I was really turned around for a bit around that and I would say that that's been the biggest challenge that I fa faced is like managing those
(33:38) conversations at that level can be quite intimidating you have to really know your stuff yeah and and I guess the thing is as well the organizations are full of band dates so when the organization started there were no senior VPS they were just VPS and they said well correct you can't be CEO and you can't be we can make you a senior and that's great and then all of a sudden that becomes a thing doesn't it and another layer and so it's I guess what you're it's real design isn't it
(34:06) that you're doing like so there was a conversation is this a vp1 versus a vp2 versus an svp1 versus an svp2 and like like literally and like I'm just and it was just it was such a good lesson learned but we probably spent two months the Just Energy being sucked as we're trying to figure this this conversation out and I think that now I would be able to say hey this is what needs to happen and actually I'm not supposed to be in the middle of this and making the decisions this is really for the CEO and the COO to like come
(34:36) together and I put forward a recommendation all of that like I knew and it's it's yeah it's crazy it's it's it was a completely different level of of the conversation that I've been having for over a decade it was like wow this is this is just a whole different ball game basically you're touching on something which is just so fascinating which is because what is our role and people want to invite us into the role of judge or they put they plun us right in the middle and that's not necessarily
(35:06) where we're most useful right and we have to listen to ourselves they go well this doesn't feel right am I in the right place am I am I going to take your invitation to be in the middle and try to sort this out oh my God how do you know when you're not in the right place and you need to S maybe step aside or something there's something wrong about the process yeah I think in this case there wasn't something wrong with the process because the thing is is you put the process C in place you put the
(35:29) governance in place and for me that's I have a very clear visual of what that looks like in this case I can tell you we had our core project team which was like doing the work it was me and a couple of really fantastic right right hands basically like putting this process in place doing the workshops doing the the facilitation we had identified subject matter experts that would be brought into the conversation as needed attending our I think that they were weekly Court team meetings then we had our steering committee where
(35:57) we identified these are are real decision makers and here's the executive sponsor who can like kind of trump everybody else that's how we did it and I knew that my job was never as a decision maker my job was to put a really clear and concise process in place with core Milestones that we're all working toward together and celebrating the success when we've achieved them moving on to the next thing bing bing boom but what I'll say is because these conversations are so intense and so just like loaded and
(36:27) personal for people I I got caught up in the drama of it and that's really easy to do and that imagine having these conversations without the process in place without the governance in place and that's often what people are doing it makes perfect sense while you avoid this like the plague this comes up a lot when you think about Performance Management like managers can't give tough feedback and they sort of like just give them the the pay bum or the like next level up just to you know do it but it's the same sort of thing
(36:55) without the infrastructure and like the Ed ation on how to have these conversations and recognize what your place is and the process you can get turned around so for me my role is never as decision maker it's always as facilitator and expert and my job is to tee up the really sticky Wicked questions and usually say here's option A B maybe sometimes a c if it's really sticky this is what I recommend and I leave it to them and I tell my teams cuz they can get frustrated CU they want to be more powerful and I'm like no no this
(37:28) is actually quite powerful you can really set the stage you can build the world for them and you can put forward your recommendation you're not the first one through the wall that's a blessing you're there as like an advisor right and you really make that clear because you also need the leaders to take ownership of this it's not for you to be the scapegoat which I think by the way also was was happening when I was leading out these conversations in that Forum it's really easy to blame the
(37:54) consultant to blame the external person coming in and so being really clear this is my role and this project sponsor is your role so when you look back at your career so far what would you say some of the biggest lessons you've learned are forward I think I think Clarity is key so you need to provide simple Frameworks for people to follow and because what happens is without the framework without and I'm talking about like a project plan is a framework for it's an example so project management critical it says
(38:26) as important as change management the project management where you provide an infrastructure or a framework for people to operate inside of that is crucial it takes a bit of energy to stand that up you have to know how to do it but once that's in place that's when the real conversations start to happen people aren't going to start griping about not being included in a meeting or not being aware of a certain decision being made or not knowing what's coming next or not that's what usually the drama is around
(38:55) you can contain that and provide that structure for them which is the the how we have the what we have the why here's how we're going to make this transformation or this change happen this Evolution happen then that's where the real Rich conversations start because people can use that as a scapegoat and they can start to say well and I would say that within those infrastructures with within that framework I like to always provide it's the clear governance but clear checkpoints for people to check in so I
(39:24) break down these big Transformations into small digestible bites phases guys like you know but like it's I think of it as little mini implementations clear outputs and deliverables for each phase but what's always really actually helped me get Buy in from leaders that are on the fence is to say you at the end of this at at this decision moment you can actually say I'm not comfortable moving forward we can't move forward and here's why and that has always helped get them on board so so for me it's Clarity it's
(39:53) creating simple Frameworks for people to operate inside of and from there you have the rich sticky conversations where you don't have all of the answers but you're not supposed to you're supposed to facilitate that that discussion and provide your expertise based on on your experience but you're you're not empowering the real decision makers to be leaders and you have such a multifaceted role and you know it look sounds like there's a lifetimes of learning in it as well and that you love
(40:20) to geek out on technical parts of the role as well how do you actually invest in your own Learning and Development I've been I've been better about it this year guys I usually get really wrapped up in the work and I I'll tell you rert Morrison is like been a kind of Guru in my mind he's um the author of a bunch of books one of them being datadriven organization design and his so I I read and I usually read as I'm as I'm doing things so I'm like constantly kind of referencing making sure that I'm tying
(40:49) things back to the latest best practice so yeah reading for sure I've been doing a lot more networking and just connecting with people that are in this field which has been fascinating cuz I always sort of I kind of got into it um on my own it was sort of isolated and I've been ex my my world has opened up recently I've been really making connections with with people in the space and hearing about their experiences and and letting that color um color my own um so so I would say reading and like taking meetings at this
(41:25) point but I think in the New Year I'm looking to do more conferences do more webinars things like this like you're constantly learning and literally every client engagement every project there's you get better and better at it and there's always like a little Nuance or something where you're you're you're absorbing something new and having to work through something new one of the reasons behind the podcast is to inspire the next generation of organization development design practitioners coming
(41:51) through yeah what advice would you give for someone who's actually either just at the foothills of your profession or is exploring your profession what advice would you give you need to have both the technical and the like people like the the hard and the soft so I would say find find the thing that makes you super passionate that's like more on the technical side of things and get really good at that but the through line of everything is that you have to have really really fantastic people skills and understand it's that emotional
(42:21) intelligence piece and I would say that it's the same thing when we look at you can't have project management but without having the change management expertise as well those two things together are what are what actually is going to um going to make you successful it's very similar so don't just focus on the soft you need to have some hard skills to really break in and differentiate differentiate yourself for me just so happen to become job architecture but it can be any number of things and just find the thing that
(42:49) you're most passionate about and learn the ins and outs of it and you will be a commodity Jo want to say huge thank you it's been such a compelling really so interesting conversation and you've just touched on some of the areas that we've really wanted to focus on throughout the seasons that we've been doing this Danny what are you taking away from today's conversation lots of things I think I was drawn to the things you talked about at the beginning about the how you kind of get byy in the importance of
(43:15) demonstrating value quickly and finding those quick wins and kind of being super practical and tactical all of those things are going to kind of get you in I love the definition of job architecture I thought that was really clear and compelling for people and I love the reading results I've got an i as like a book to go in so I've joined that that's all my reading list now there's I would love to actually there's a podcast episode that I listen I've listened to probably four or five times and I
(43:39) recommend it because it shows for me it's Esther Pell's where should we begin I want to say no wrong how's work that's her sites or other podcast and it's this episode I can put it in the link or whatever breaking news has broken us and she does just the most phenomenal job as a clinical therapist navigating this conversation it's during covid it's with a newsroom and everyone has these like different unique problems and she does the most amazing job zooming in pulling back providing the vocabulary for what
(44:10) people are experiencing and so it's I would say Robert Morrison is your like technical Guru when you want to pull back and look more at the at the people piece I'm obsessed with Esther Perell but this episode in particular resonated so strongly with me and I think it's just a really good example of what's possible within our role like how we could do something similar and facilitate a similar kind of conversation so again zoom out zoom in um being able to do both is is crucial yeah and I think the things that sort of
(44:38) stood out for me as all the things that Danny said I think two things so number one is making sure the ownership sits where it should that not taking that seductive invitation take on yourself and say look you need to carry this and you need to take it with you as well and also the fact that you know if you have the courage and the conviction and the skill to lean into what is most difficult then it just releases so much energy back into the system doesn't it and and the fight is worth it but you just need to make sure you got the right
(45:05) people like yourself around to guide you through it but don't let it stop you getting in the way as well if anyone else like us has been absolutely riveted by this conversation and they want to follow your work or they'd love to contact you and learn more about how job architecture or how you could guide through transformation what is the best way for people to reach here so I have an email address Jules at andies advisory.
(45:32) wish I had like a little sign I could hold up maybe we could put it in the chat I don't know how this works but something so show them it's doco not.com because I'm cool and hip brilliant I you active on LinkedIn because that's how we very active on we found your work on there and we found some podcasts we we thought we had got to bring you on so you're active on them people can follow you and connect definitely and please follow Andy's we're we're boobing and shaking we're growing every day well well thank
(45:58) you so much what a brilliant episode um I've thoroughly enjoyed it have you yeah very much so amazing we we made a progress when we started the or podcast where we would just literally bootstrapped the first 50 episodes just to see if there was an audience that wanted to hear it and we've completed 50 episodes now and we've gone zooming past that so this is our we've now updated our technology we're now on Riverside we're now going to be making sure that we're putting Clips out there shorter
(46:23) clips of all the podcasts that we're doing but if you found this podcast useful and you think someone that you know would really benefit from learning more about Job architecture then please share it with them and give them access to it and if you want to keep up today with all the podcasts that we're putting out we're putting them out weekly at the moment both in audio format and video they just subscribe to us on YouTube or on Buzz Sprout Danny that's right isn't it and you'll find us on Amazon Spotify
(46:45) and all the others as well but thank you so much but most importantly thank you so much Jules thank you for making time at the end of a busy week to time I thank you for giving such brilliant explanations to such an important field thank you so much I had a blast excited to stay connected thank you [Music]