Polarity Intelligence with Tracy Christopherson and Michelle Troseth | Leadership - OrgDev Podcast 50

In this OrgDev episode, we explore the transformative power of polarity intelligence with Michelle Troseth and Dr. Tracy Christopherson, co-founders of MissingLogic, LLC, and pioneers in applying polarity thinking to healthcare and beyond.

How can we balance the needs of employees with the demands of the organisation? How do we navigate the tension between short-term wins and long-term sustainability? And how do we embrace innovative approaches for the future while respecting traditional, tried-and-tested methods?

In a world that often defaults to either/or thinking, we risk missing the opportunities hidden within the interplay of opposites. What if, instead of viewing these opposing forces as conflicts to resolve, we saw them as dynamic tensions to leverage? Polarity thinking offers a fresh perspective—one that helps us move beyond quick fixes and binary solutions to unlock untapped potential and achieve sustainable, productive outcomes.

💼 About our Guests
Michelle Troseth & Dr. Tracy Christopherson

Missing Logic
https://www.missinglogic.com/

Get Your Copy of their Book here:
https://www.polarityintelligence.com/

Thanks for listening!

Distinction is an evidence-based Organisation Development & Design Consultancy designed to support modern, progressive organisations to bring out the best in their people and their teams through training, consulting, and coaching.

Our professional and highly skilled consultants focus on delivering engaging, results-focused and flexible solutions that help our clients achieve their business objectives.

Find out more at https://distinction.live/how-we-can-help/

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Transcript

(00:00) hi and welcome to the org Dev podcast so how can we balance the needs of employees with the demands of the organization how do we navigate the tension between short-term wins and long-term sustainability and how do we balance tried and tested ways of doing things while embracing Innovative approaches for the Future these are just some of the few polarities that we face every day in our personal and professional lives instead of seeing these as opposing forces as conflicts to resolve what if we viewed these as
(00:29) Dynamic tensions to leverage in a world that often pushes us towards either or thinking we miss the opportunities hidden within the interplay of opposites So today we're exploring the field of polarity intelligence and how to move Beyond quick fixes that fail and binary Solutions and instead achieve much more productive outcomes now plout thinking or plow intelligence something that Danny and I have wanted to cover since the start of the orev podcast but we have been searching for the perfect guests to talk about it because this is
(00:57) an important way in which we need to support leaders in or organizations then I came across a brilliantly written book called poity intelligence the missing logic and Leadership by Dr Tracy Christopherson and Michel Troth so Tracy and Michelle met over 30 years ago and have been collaborative colleagues in Dynamic co-leaders ever since together they co-found in missing logic to bring together polarity intelligence Now Tracy is a respiratory therapist she earned a PhD in interprofessional healthc care studies and has helped thousands of
(01:27) individuals and leaders apply polarity intelligence in their question to create healthy healing collaborative work cultures and environments and Michelle is a ner and a recognized Global thought leader and the past president of the nationaly of practice and a fellow in the American Academy of nursing now Tracy Michelle Works consultants and coaches in the healthc care field which is such a fascinating area they are Master dialogue facilitators experts in organizational and Inter professional Council infrastructures they both live
(01:57) in Michigan as best friends they share a love of travel Golf and special especially the eepic and I can't pronounce this ukra matches with their husband's Jing theame is it really does it involve money no that's why you're Stills we and Danny and I are really excited because we know that by the end of this session you're G to be really introduced to the idea of polarity intelligence but with a real joy and war that only Tracy and Michelle can bring so so welcome so much to the podcast [Music]
(02:37) we're really excited to have you with us so thank you for joining us so just to kick us off just tell us a little bit about polarity intelligence and polarity thinking kind of Define it for the audience who who might not have come across here as a as a concept first polarity intelligence has really three components to it one is the polarity mindset piece another is healthy relationships and the other is Meaningful dialogue so it's really the three together that enable leaders to Leverage The prorities in their you know in all
(03:05) aspects of their lives personally professionally uh in their organizations in their communities wherever we're leaders now parities uh let's just start there right parities are interdependent pairs of perspectives points of view or values they appear to be opposite or contradictory to each other but they have this interdependent relationship and they need each other to get to a greater purpose so the example of that that's easiest for everybody to understand that we use all the time is inhaling and exhaling of course this is
(03:36) near and dear my heart is a respiratory therapist right so my favorite example but you know when you inhale there's a benefit to that right you receive oxygen and when you exhale there's a benefit to that in removing the carbon dioxide from your body and your body has to do both right in Harmony and in synchrony in order to reach the greater purpose of sustaining life and all other polarities are just like that right there's benefits to each pole and you need the benefits of those poles to get to the greater purpose and
(04:09) if you overemphasize one and you neglect the other there's always going to be a negative consequence the thing is most people don't even know these polarities exist right they don't they experience the tension between the two poles but they don't understand the nature of the energy that binds these two components together and so they fight against it and they use kind of their go-to uh methodology which is problem solving right we grow up learning how to solve problems from the time we're young in
(04:39) school and then as we're leaders right the more problems the bigger the problems we solve the more accolades we get the higher we climb in the organization and it really is our go-to so prority mindsets understanding what a Pity is and how it works and then differentiating those from the problems that we can solve it's that sitting in that tension U because they appear to be contradictory to each other that can cause challenges for people so that's why we've coupled that with healthy relationships and meaningful dialogue
(05:07) and I'll let Michelle talk a little bit about those two components we recognize you could know about polarities but you can't stop there because what do you do when you're sitting in that tension and so it's really important to recognize the importance of really fostering healthy relationships with other people and really being intentional and how we connect with the people that we live with the people we work with the people in our community and establish that shared purpose why does the relationship
(05:33) exist in the first place and recognizing that we all have a equal responsibility in that and together we can explore these tensions together and um and and really tap the human capacity in each and every person in the organization and we also in that healthy relationships too a really important aspect is balancing yourself in that relationship it's another almost mini poity but if you're going to have a health healthy relationship you have to find that dynamic balance between you and others that you work with or that
(06:05) you live with and then and then that all of that sits and creates trust and you have to have a strong foundation and relationships to really build upon to deepen your understanding of of polarities and then Tracy and I we studied dialogue for years um we created dialogue experiences dialogue circles and so we realize if we're really going to create polarity intelligence leaders have to be skilled at dialogue and this is a lot different than learning about communication your business class or this is going deeper to really
(06:38) understand um and again being intentional with people creating a container of psychological safety so that you can explore the tensions that are always there maybe the ones that are most prominent that you really need to um address as well and then also listening that is the biggest skill set that we see missing in leaders is really listening to understand another person's perspective and then ask being curious right if we have tensions tell me why you think that way how did you come to have that particular preference of that
(07:13) poll as an example and being CED and diplomatic with each other create uh changing the way we do have conversations together and really inviting reflection so that we can learn together both at at a personal level but also collectively as a group so we recognize polarities are everywhere they're never going to go away but leaders also need the skill set to navigate them and to really kind of raise above them so that you really can create these really good workplaces and and so that's those are the three that's
(07:45) the triactor and has polarity thinking and polarity intelligence does it take a more significance the more complicated and comp complex the world we're kind of operating in do you think it's more relevant today than it ever has been yes yeah yeah and I think you know we're we're we just keep experiencing the same challenges over and over because they're polarities yeah right they're not problems to solve but we keep coming at them from that problem solving lens and try to trying to find the solution right
(08:14) what is the solution to this challenge yeah and I mean we just face this in the states right with our election and I we've got such polarization it's so deep and what that why that happens is because these are values they're deeply held values that are so meaningful for us and what people don't understand is you don't have to give up what you value to be open and receptive to the other value because we have to have them both but most people hang on tightly because they feel like they have to give theirs
(08:46) up to accept or be open to the other but when you know it's a polarity then you know it's both in it's never about either or it's always about both and so and one pull is not more important than the other but but because we don't understand this concept and how all polarities work we continue to fight against it and it just gets more and more complex and there are a multitude of play they're everywhere everywhere right and uh and so the more complex our world gets the more the more polarities
(09:16) there are at play that are not being addressed they're not being leveraged where the leaders start if if leaders kind of a hearing is talking about polarities how do they start the process of starting to work with polarities rather than problems where how do you set them off on Paul well I would say they start at the personal level we always start leaders at the personal level so because that's closest to home and it's easiest to manage because you're managing you're leveraging your own actions your own polarities right
(09:44) they they sit with you so as an example for most leaders per professional life and personal life is a primary polarity that they face every single day right they give a lot to their profession to their career right as a leader and um and yet they want to have a thriving personal life at the same time that's equally important to them so we start them with really mapping out what is it that I truly want in my career and my professional life and what matters most to me in my personal life and really understanding what those are what those
(10:17) elements are what are the benefits I get when I give attention to both of these and what's at risk if I work too hard in my career developing my career and I neglect my personal life what is at risk right and what's at risk if I give too to much attention to my personal life and then what are the strategies so they create their own action plan right it's a blueprint strategy for having this balance between both and being able to recognize the warning signs of when they are over focusing so when they can
(10:44) leverage that at a personal level they get a deep understanding not only of what a polarity is but how they work what it takes to leverage one and then they feel more confident in themselves in their ability to talk to others about polarities and and it also helps them deepen their relationships because you don't live in that polarity alone you got a family you got people team members you're working with right you got a lot of other people that are impacted and most of the time they're the ones that
(11:11) can tell you you know what your warning signs are they know when you're stressed out they know when you're overemphasizing they it's great you know so it's it's the exercise of also who else can support me in leveraging this and what what kind of relationship do I need with that person how can I deepen my relationship and how can I communicate my needs what I'm trying to do and have a deeper understanding about it's not just about me it's about the ripple effect this has on others right
(11:36) and that shared purpose of support so we always find it's helpful to start at the personal level and then Danny I would add to that that's why we wrote the book too how do I how do I how do I learn more about this and there's been a lot of books written on polarities that are like theoretical they're hard to apply so Our intention with writing this book was to create like a guide book for any leader it's written in a very simplistic way it gives you key reflection questions it gives you actual tips
(12:08) there's case studies in it and um because we really want to get it in the hands as many leaders as we can so it was written in a very specific way and then we also created a website polarity intelligence.com where When leaders read the book and we refer them to the website they can download tools and resources because we want people to start thinking how can I apply this how can I learn this so that was a big reason behind our book and it's not enough just to know it a lot of people have written books on polarities and
(12:40) polarity thinking but it's about the application obviously you know seeing the polarity is only half the work isn't it but it's a significant piece isn't it because once you see one see them everywhere don't you and you talk about the importance of being able to engage others in in and you talk about meaningful dialogue which is really important and it is an underappreciated thing in this world particularly for leaders and but you talk about one of the things that are really important is
(13:05) that you develop the importance of developing a shared commitment to a greater purpose so when two people are talking what what what did you mean by that concept and how can people apply that again because we can be so polarized to our preference poll we we we we often find though that we all want the same thing so coming together to really identify what that shared purpose is and that happens through dialogue it happens through listening to each other it happens when you can feel safe to even express your perspective sometimes
(13:35) people don't even know why they came to believe something that they believe it's they've been indoctrinated by other people or other things and so it's really creating that space where we can come together and identify the shared purpose and when what we have found pretty consistently then we can actually see the benefits the positive outcomes of the other perspective and work together to to really have action to support both of those so we can achieve that higher purpose so you have to have
(14:06) dialogue skills to to get there one of the things that I think we've done is help people to see they can create a space like it's stepping out of the dayto day you know we get in these meetings it's rapid fire we're problem Focus what's the solution what's the next step how is it working what it's not working what's the next thing we can try and dialogue is about stepping away it's about slowing the conversation down it's about being present with each other it's about not it's not about finding a
(14:37) solution it's about it's like having a you know a fire in the center of a circle and everybody is contributing a log to the fire right so everybody contributes from their perspective you know here's my experience I've had with this we did this with a large group of leaders and just exploring what do I know about you know engaging in like engaging with people that have diverse perspectives that's just a topic what what have I learned about that what do I know about that and everybody has had
(15:07) different experiences but it's through everybody sharing those experiences that we get a deeper meaning we get a deeper understanding we start to open up right we we we relate to each other differently we relate to the topic that we're talking about differently so it's really just that safe space to share and to learn from each other so that you're kind of always moving up towards oh oh well this is what we all want we've had different experiences but this is what this really means and coming to that
(15:36) Collective understanding that deeper understanding but it's not about solving anything we tend to get in right I just notic you've got ying yang earrings on you are living your truth aren you oh yeah pretty much every day that's one of the biggest polarities there is because you're fighting the brains naturally instincts aren't you because we are so naturally disposed to them and us and you know the fact that we're kind of sort of saying you know we we want facts that are going to prove our Point
(16:10) are true you're with the same must we get called into lots of conflicts and obviously from our view it all makes sense and they are fighting over the same thing but they lose their way in the conflict don't they and it becomes literally a point of my Pro my point will prevail so I guess you're trying to introduce a different type of space and slow things down yeah yeah and just to be present with each other right and and I think the thing is to recognize the preferences so I'm glad you know we kind
(16:36) of talked a little bit about that but we all have preference and most of the time it's based on the experiences that we've had right and and so it's it's just really important to know when you have a play and you have a preference for a poll you're going to lean that way and that's where that's what you're going to kind of hang on to a little bit more and often times it's just the awareness of that that I need to I need to open myself a little bit more to the other side so as an example we're talking
(17:02) about yin and yang right one of the energies is masculine and feminine now I have a higher masculine energy right I'm a doer right achiever like that and Michelle is more the feminine energy so she's more in the relationships and the connection and doesn't mean I don't appreciate those things but I tend to lean this way she tends to lean that way that right and so it's just important to know and understand that when we get into situations so that we can have a good balance of both because both are
(17:33) essential in leadership in you know in everything right like it's a it's an energy that you need to leverage and manage but you just have to know what your preferences are because it drives how you see things how you interpret things you know and how what you you know where you put your emphasis and so as a leader if you have a preference poll everybody you lead can live in the downside of that preference if I have a preference for Direct ctive decision making then that's what I'm doing right
(18:02) and everybody that lives underneath me in the organization is going to live underneath my preference pole if I don't balance that with participative decision making we're going to all end up in the downside of that right there's going to be a negative consequence but because I'm the leader and that's my preference if I just sit in that pole I can drive us into that downside if it's not balanced well with participative decision- making as an example mhm so you talked about people often confusing
(18:32) problems with polari so they'll they'll think they've got a problem to fix rather than looking at what are the signs that you might be working with a polarity rather than a problem are there things we can look out for that might point us in the direction well problems to have end points so you have maybe one or two or three possible solutions that you can apply you choose one you apply it problem solved it's done in a polarity there's the the solutions or the Alternatives that you have have an
(18:59) interdependent relationship to them you can't choose one or the other and the clarity is always ongoing so it never ends it always is going to continue and um and that's that's a sign that you have a Clarity when you have what you think is a problem that comes back over and over and over then you know that this is not a problem this is a polarity because it keeps repeating itself we whatever it doesn't matter what we apply we never solve it that's how you know you have a you know a polarity it's
(19:33) because it's ongoing all the time a lot of what you're introducing to organizations is kind of for many organizations it's countercultural isn't it because it's kind of winwin it's you know there's a lot of emphasis particularly in some organizations about individual achievement and one of the things that you know you talk about is the fact that you're trying to see the upsides in both how do you create that safety or that different type of space where people can engage in that type of
(19:57) conversation what are are some of the building blocks you need to do to enable people to engage in the dialogue that's required to to be able to even discuss these things I think you have to prioritize creating that space and sometimes that can be a challenge in organizations that are quick fix mentality focused but it's really critical that you do that and so that's why Trac and I also like to work with leaders because leaders are the ones they're the Lynch pins of the organization so if they don't understand
(20:24) how important this is then the people on the front line aren't going to have a chance right so we try we how we're doing it is obviously teaching people about it but also we um after the book came out we did a two-day foundations program where we actually took two days brought leaders from different organizations Industries in and gave them the experience of how to create that space how to H what it was like to be in a dialogue and then that's when the light bulbs go off and so then organizations
(20:53) start to prioritize if they have are committed to become polarity intelligent leaders themselves or they're like I want to create this type of culture in my organization then we need to we need to take that time to step back to come together and to have dialogue and so that can really appreciate other people's differing perspectives and we also do a I think it's also even important to create the space to identify where your team's preference polls are out that's enlightening in and of itself because if you if you take any
(21:25) polarity and one that Tracy and I frequently help people with and learning about it is stability and change in the world today and what's your preference poll and you can learn a lot about a group very quickly about where they stand if they prefer change or they prefer stability and but you have to take time to create space or you might be in the middle of a of a a meeting you know there's tension practice calling it out um and then take the time to identify what what are we dealing with here and then to have conversation about
(21:58) it it's I think the first is just recognizing how important it is that we do slow down and we have these conversations and and we take the time to identify and talk through what polarities we might be dealing with yeah I think there's a couple of things I think I think it's about commitment and I think it it it does start with a leadership like Michelle said but it's a commitment that you know what these exist they're everywhere they're working on us number one recognize that and embrace it and then identify where is it
(22:27) showing up for us the the most because you know there's a lot of polarities it can get really overwhelming to think that we're going to manage all of these at the same time but you know the first place they start out it is really in the Strategic plan because if we're unipolar in our thinking right then we're going to end up what we're doing is not going to be a sustainable outcome if we don't have both values represented in our strategic plans in our vision for our organization right in our mission so we
(22:55) have to think about it starts right at the top with you know kind of the found of the organization and then to recognize you know we need leaders that can lead this so we work with organizations to create resource teams we don't want people to be dependent on us we want them to be self-sufficient in this so it's really about get a team get let's get the team together that can kind of hold this container and move the organization forward in the learning and the development of the skill and start with
(23:21) the leaders and then Ripple it out to everybody because everybody should understand what a Clarity is how it's showing up because understanding that gives them a Common Language oh this isn't a problem this is a polarity and we love it when that happens right and people people will ping us and go oh my gosh I was in this meeting the other day and I thought this is a polarity right just it's one of the most cathartic tools we we we like people make sense they go like oh go oh okay yeah yeah so once you have
(23:57) that awareness it's really just making the commitment this isn't I think you know this isn't one of our biggest frustrations is this isn't nice to know folks this isn't just nice to know this is a universal law it's a principle it impacts every aspect of your life and every element that you engage in in your communities your nation doesn't matter right your organization your leadership teams your groups it's not a nice to know it it's happening around you it's working on you so if you don't
(24:28) understand how to work with it it's going to work you and your organization right and the most successful organizations recognize and leverage the key prorities in their organization and so it's a key competency for every leader and we're all leaders we're all leaders right in some way shape or form some of us have formal leadership positions and others of us don't but we're leading we're always leading people are always watching and observing you and so that's why we wrote this
(24:57) really kind of for any leader and any way um in your community or your organization doesn't matter right where you're leading in your family there there were two things I just wanted to pick up we're going to just ask you about like how you came across this and I know that's G to be a fascinating story but just two things I want to pull out you talked about strategy and it's really interesting so like this morning we were talking to an organization that's embarking on a huge strategic
(25:18) process and we sort of went through it and it became all of a sudden that they they're trying to get their managers to achieve two polarities but without being explicit so they want them to be Innovative and efficient and those are two big very different things to do but they're not necessarily Mak it explicit on and how they're going to do it is that something that you see where they organizations are getting there organ to do very contradictory things yeah or they're emphasizing The Innovation or
(25:45) they just overemphasize the Innovation and they don't pay attention to the tradition what is the core of who we are how we operate like who we want to be what we want to contribute yeah they get like they get in the downside maybe that's not going so well right and right then they overemphasize The Innovation yeah and they neglect to maintain the core that's right a lot of companies have you know um gone under because they went you know they either held on to the core and didn't innovate or they went
(26:12) too far in the Innovation and lost the core same thing with efficiency another common polarity in organizations is they over focus on the efficiency and the productivity but they're not paying attention to the relationships and the connections within the organization another 100% predictable failure they don't leverage those two things actually looking at strategic plans is fun because if you understand polarities you can Pi where the spots the blind spots are well and the values the core values of an organization yeah yeah Johnson
(26:43) talks about that a lot doesn't they sort the values of your organization and do you have pairs in there as well that's what really drives the organization and so even Michelle and I like you know we have our core values and we have some that are polarities you know that we have to that we have to be vigilant about leveraging and managing as a as a company those are a couple of things to really pay attention to as you're moving forward and I think that it makes a big difference and you talk about um dynamic
(27:11) balance which is just such a fascinating element there what is dynamic balance and and how should a leader be trying to seek this out well that's one of the gifts of polarities once you understand how they all work you realize that it is a tension that exists between two different what appear to be opposite Valu or or um poles but it's it's really the energy that sits between them that binds them together and that is where the dynamic the dynamic balance occurs there's always going to be times in um
(27:42) our personal lives and in our companies where we may have to over focus on one pole more than the other one but what polarities teach you is it's it's got to be you have to continuously move you have to keep in motion and you can't drop the other pole um you know 100% And great example is covid when covid happened at um you know like from a health care perspective but all businesses the essential workers you had to focus and you had to be very directive and say this is what we're going to do in this crisis situation and
(28:13) so that was where we leaned but then we can't stay there eventually we have to lean back over into participation again and engaging the workforce again and that's kind of where we're at right now and it's really interesting to even see what's happening around the world with that that even with some of the outputs of covid you know with the in in office work or hybrid AO office work you know so it's it teaches you you always got to be dynamic though you can't be it's not an either or it's an and in both yeah I
(28:45) I think it's about paying attention to where you're being drawn life is dynamic yeah it's just the nature of life right so it is about doing that dance and it's not it's not going so far that you overfocused to the point that you neglect the other but that you give the attention that you need to give while you're maintaining doing whatever you can to maintain as much of the positive benefit of the other pool as you possibly so you know when we work with people and they create a blueprint
(29:18) strategy for how they're going to leverage us they have a number the only poity managed for us is inhaling and exhaling that our body takes care of that we don't have to worry about it thank goodness right now would you want to walk around going inhale I think i' forget we don't want that thank goodness we got an automatic system here right and when it when it fails we know and uh and then that's when I come in no but but all other polarities we have to be vigilant and we have to have action strategies to get those benefits
(29:46) the benefits aren't just going to happen but we may have four or five strategies listed out to get the benefit of that and if I have to give my attention to my professional career big project coming up covid like right I got to focus here I might not be able to do all the strategies to support my personal life but I can choose one or two that will give me the most positive outcome possible so that I'm still getting benefit from that I'm still receiving positive attributes of that part and then when this loosens up and I
(30:21) can give more attention to the other side then I get it more equal right but it's never 50/50 it's always a transition right you never know week to week it's a balance some weeks are heavier in your personal life especially if you have kids or activities or right like things like that but then you know like the next week might be a heavy professional kind of a a component same thing in organization sometimes we need to lean into the team and other times we need to tap into the individual strengths that that individuals have in
(30:51) the organization right so but it's about just kind of knowing when we're doing that and being vigilant and mindful to maintain the actions that will get us the biggest benefits like Innovation and tradition right when we really need to be Innovative let's M do what do we got to do to maintain the core while we innovate it's such a fascinating fi how did you how did you arrive here how did what was your journey into the polarity field how did you get here well we actually were very blessed in our work
(31:19) in healthc care you know for many many years and Healthcare is a very complex system and we were trying to do transformational changes and we started Ed out with a model of we want to move from institutional practice to professional practice we want to move from you know one discipline to multidisciplin like we were always doing the from to concept and that we were met with a lot of resistance over and over again and then somewhere along the way in our work we had a couple of people ask us have you ever heard of Barry
(31:49) Johnson and his work on polarity management and he had written that book in the early 90s and finally we're like you know what we're going to pick up the phone and find guy well ended up he lived 30 minutes from our office it was like and so we we actually met face to face with Barry and then he worked with our team in the field for a number of years un covering common polarities in and health care and then and so that's how we got started and we really applied it in the field it shifted the way that
(32:20) we helped organizations transform and then when Tracy and I eventually over time that work grew but we also grew in different organizations in the work we were doing and eventually it got to be more about other things and not about the culture work and the polarity work that we were so passionate about and so in 2017 we decided to leave our corporate roles and kind of do our last stand on what we wanted to do and when we really sat back and thought about it it was like gosh of all the things we've done polarities are still
(32:55) not known and even then how you work with them is even further from known and that's really when we started missing logic yeah yeah we we were really blessed and the work the work that we were doing in healthc Care organizations was really around healthy cultures and that's where the dialogue and relationship components came in because we were creating infrastructures inside organizations to bring people together to increase uh staff engagement to create a culture that would permeate the whole organization and then we were
(33:27) working with organizations all across North America to do that as well you know our where we worked was the lab everything was tested and tried where we worked and lead and um and it was really engaging in those elements that had the biggest difference in the culture and then recognizing the challenges that we were facing were these polarities that you know when you work with with hundreds of organizations you can see the patterns right and we had that benefit of engaging with leaders from all across North America and we saw
(33:58) pattern that some of these things are not problems we can solve right and that's where Barry really helped us to say yeah these are polarities and then that became a fundamental component of the framework that we used and implemented in organizations all across the country and and it was the one thing that we still see like when we left corporate and started to engage an organizations you could see the same problems coming up over and over and over and leaders like and we would look at each other go oh my God you know and
(34:27) right now this is a class case so we were doing work culture work over 30 years ago and work cultures and healthy work environments are still an issue today and one of the things you're particularly driven by is sort of well-being in the health care sector as well that's a perennial is this persistent and enduring issue there why is it an issue in the profession and how can polari support that well it's because we we look at everything we look at things again as a problem and U burnout is a huge issue in healthcare
(34:57) and it's a it's a huge issue in a lot of Industries is what we're really uncovering and it's looked at as a problem so the pattern that we see is you can't deny it there's been tons of reports it's it's validated over and over again in the literature and the pattern that we see now is people want to fix the system or the organization so again it goes back to like well this if we fix this then will fix burnout but really wellbeing is is such a great example of a polarity that both have to
(35:28) own it the organization has to own it but also at the personal level we have to all be resilient and and pay attention to our own well-being as well so that's a big part of our work especially when covid hit and we recognize leaders um we're going to need a lot of help as we just turned virtually started working with leaders on how to have thriving resilient Unstoppable or true be a true leader and it all started with helping them to really recognize how to leverage their those personal polarities you know Tracy
(36:01) talked about professional life and personal life and there's so many others hearing for self caring for others activity and rest there's so many polarities at a personal level that leaders have to learn how to leverage and so that's been and then there's such a connection again there's just that connection between leaders being resilient and the organization being resilient so you have to do both and I would say I what I'd add to that is in healthc care I think it's really prominent in healthcare because they are
(36:31) service oriented it's always about the patient or about the team or and so they sacrifice themselves for others and it is you're it's almost indoctrinated in you with as a as a health professional as a leader and so I think that's why it's so prominent in health care um because they're caregivers they are there to serve and they overemphasize the service component so when it comes to caring for yourself and caring for others it's always about caring for others it's never about caring for me
(37:04) and so again right they end up in the downside of that and then what we've uncovered in working with leaders just from any area right is they tend to do that as well but there's these leadership Norms that we operate by the beliefs that we hold as Leaders right you got to work hard to be successful La got to be the last man out the door last man off the field every team first right organization first you know some of those kinds of norms that we are indoctrinated with as we move up we watch others we observe how others are
(37:38) right and we follow that pattern we don't even know we believe this but we're living it every single day so we overemphasize again the sacrifice for the professional life and think about it you know we we have that either or I can't have both I don't believe work life balance is possible because we don't understand what it takes to have balance to have that it's not about 50/50 it is dynamic and um and you know like I don't know about you but you know I I mean when you you know it's either
(38:08) have a career or have a family go to school or backpack well for us in the states it's go to Europe and backpack or right or go to school right so I mean think about it like you know when you reach that point after you get through your highight school years it's there's a choice a point that you have to choose and often we look at it as either or it's the same thing as you move into your professional career it's either I have this or I have that it's hard to have both so you don't have that bothan
(38:36) mindset what is it about your work that you find most fulfilling which B really excite you well I think I think what's so exciting and it has been for the last 30 years certainly the last seven years is when the light bulbs go on it's really exciting to be with a group of people that have never even been introduced to these Concepts and when you and when they are it's like oh my gosh I never even knew this was even possible Tracy and I just did a keynote a few months ago to 250 leaders and as we were walking off the stage
(39:06) leaders were literally at tables going like this to us that the mindblowing sign the little emoji and that's fulfilling because you know what you we have all been through organizational development leadership development Concepts but it's time for a new one and I really feel this is the time for polarity intelligence and when you see people really grasp it um even more now like I was such a great question you asked ear earlier even more now than 10 years ago 15 year 20 years ago um that's very very very fulfilling
(39:39) when you see people it resonate with people and then having them want to learn more and apply it and is the same for you Tracy well yeah I well yeah and and I like the individual work we do like we coach individual leaders and we have a mastermind we have some coaching programs but what I find really fulfilling is when somebody turns their life inside out totally change like we have we had a leader we were working with it was really you know had covid long-term Co was burnt out was at the end of their rope over over over
(40:08) emphasizing their professional life never doing anything for themselves they were hardly even sleeping you know and to grasp this concept that this is a both and that I that you know improving and developing my personal life will actually help me be more effective and successful in my professional life and a total turn their life around it it just is amazing to see the impact and it really at the core of that was the parities understanding claries understanding the tensions that they experience understanding that you know I
(40:41) both of these are equally important to me having the highest quality of life and to see them really step into that and develop that high quality of life I mean to go from sleeping two hours to seven hours a night to never going on vacation to taking vacations to going on retreats to traveling to you know and getting a new you know new offers new opportunities to see both aspects of their life just Blossom and to see them really Thrive it's just undescribable how exciting it it's very fulfilling it is so fulfilling it's just like a and
(41:15) you just want every person to have that opportunity you know that's all we just wanna we want people to not just know polarities exist but just to apply the polarity intelligence in the place where it matters most of them and some for some people that is in their personal life and for others it is in their organizations right it is in how they lead and we just want to give them the tools and the opportunities the knowledge and the ability to apply it so that they can have this transformational uh results and
(41:45) sustainable results because that's the thing polarities are about sustainability sustainable results that don't have to take a lot of energy right once you understand what you're doing it's just maintenance M it's vigilance and maintenance it's not a a heavy lift all the time of redoing things right refocusing so on the flip side what are the most challenging bits about the work that you do well I think the most challenging is people thinking this is just a nice to know great concept oh
(42:15) that's really interesting yeah I think that's the biggest challenge for us because it isn't just interesting it is essential and everybody really will have a much better life we'll have better communities we'll have more you know connection engagement more Harmony in our lives if we can Embrace this understand it and work with it collectively and individually um and I think that's that's the thing that is a little bit more frustrating for me it so it's really just kind of trying to help
(42:45) people to see it in their lives so that they grasp that it is more than just a because once you see it you can't unsee it can you on exactly yeah yeah but it doesn't do any good to just see it you know so what right you're still gonna get run over by the bus exactly you're G experience you're still G to experience all those downsides right so what would you rather have would you rather have all the benefits and the joy and the ener the positive energy right that that when you just put a little bit
(43:17) of effort towards it you can kind of create this space be the creator of your life be the creator of your outcomes and have them over and over and over because it really is about creating that virtuous cycle that's just taking you toward that greater purpose that thing that you truly want and desire and and most of us would rather stay in that but you just have to do a little bit of effort to get to that when you look back over your careers what would you say are some of the biggest lessons or the the biggest lesson you've learned so far
(43:44) well I would say one of the biggest lessons we've had over the last few years is really about being in partnership with somebody so Michelle and I have been friends for almost 30 years right we've been working together for numerous years collaborated on a lot of things but we never owned a business together we never were business partners together and even though we know about polarities really it was really about understanding how those polarities show up in that in the dynamic of who we are as people and individuals on almost
(44:15) every polarity we hold the opposite poll as a preference and so you know there were times there's been times over the last few years where we've had we've experienced a lot of tension and recognizing oh my gosh right we're sitting in this polarity and we're both like you know being our natural selves emphasizing the polls that are our preference poles where our strengths are I mean they're strengths right as well they're not just values their strengths and it's not that we don't value the other but because it's
(44:47) our strength we lean so far into it that we're not embodying the other and so it's just really been how we can do that so it doesn't matter if you're partner even with our spouses right we have to learn we've had to learn how to do this yeah but with each other you know and we have a friendship and a business relationship that we have to manage right both so we have to give equal attention to both of those but even for leadership diets leadership teams right where you're working closely with
(45:16) another person you know co-leaders and a and a project we got to really understand not only what your strengths are but what are your preferences and what polarities are going to be at play and just being more Vigilant about okay we're going to be moving into this new effort what are the parities that are going to come up between our strengths and how can we leverage that make sure we're proactively thinking about that right and leveraging that so that's one of them and I would add to it taking the
(45:45) dialogue Tracy and I have with each other and our relationship to even a deeper level the other thing just to is from a prority perspective is um is that you really have to have the foundation of the relationships and the meaningful dialogue you it's you're you know you can see the polarities but to actually live in the tension with a within a team or within a group you really have to have that Foundation develop that Foundation of relationship and and leverage those tools of meaningful dialogue to um because that tension
(46:20) going to keep showing up right and to leverage it and manage it and to keep that eye on the greater purpose it's just ESS it's not it is not enough to just know that a polarity exists or that we have polarities to manage them you got to do that work and and historically that's been the soft stuff right like right you don't want to spend a lot of time investing in relationships and communication right let's get the productivity pieces done right so but it's equally important in in all aspects
(46:50) of our and another way I just want to say another way that that that shows up to what what Tracy says so important is it can't just be a token team building day you know what I mean you have to bake that relationship and dialogue into your organization just like you do the awareness of polarities um that's what we know will make the biggest difference it's got to be woven into the fabric because I think when you do talk about this and it's an key element of your work polarities therefore you end up
(47:19) holding yourself to a higher standard don't you so when there is an issue you feel there's a sense of responsibility to work it through isn't it and you know it'll often appear in all sorts of unusual places but you have to make the space to work through it don't you yeah you do and you have to invite it you know you have to invite it and sometimes I think you know oftentimes we're driven by fears and polarities are so much about that right we hang on to our preference poll because we're afraid
(47:45) we're going to lose the value of what we highly you know of our preference or what is a a significant value for us we hang on to it so tightly because we're afraid we're going to lose it if the other pole is given attention and that's where the resistance comes from it's really fear and maybe we've had an experience where we lived in the downside of that other pole and we not going there again I'm not going back there you're not making me do that right and so you just hang on and hang on and
(48:14) hang on and but it's not about I have to let go of this it's about how do I complement this with the other how can we have both and that's why it's so important to have the dialogue is to understand help people to see where their fears are coming from and that it's not either or but either or is all we tend to know and that's what drives those fears so really having that space to let's all just talk about you know what are you most concerned about and often times when you're working with a
(48:44) poity it's going to that place first it's not about your pull and what you believe it's about understanding the other person what's important to you what what are you most concerned about you know and just really understanding and recogn izing and accepting the value the positives of the poll they hold most dearest it's not about pushing your perspective it's about understanding theirs and that's where the dialogue really helps and the relationships help and and you have to invite the other
(49:11) poll even if it's not your preference poll obviously you are very accomplished in your in your careers how do you invest in your own Learning and Development well one way is we have our own podcast right the true leader podcast and I think one of the great great benefits of that is inviting other people on right and reading their books you know so we invite somebody on like you know we we get exposed to people and we're like oh my gosh look at this incredible book well you know we read their books we do our homework
(49:42) right and then we learn so much from them um and you know so I think that's just been like phenomenal for us you know we have learned a lot about boundaries from Dr Sasha shut she was on our podcast we've learned about Grit we've learned about even improv leveraging improv right improv is really there's a lot a lot of U strong relationship between polarities and improv yes and and I think the other way is really we've always known this but I think we've really put it on steroids now recognizing how important it is that
(50:15) each of us individually go through personal development we're all here to evolve we're all here to grow and just because Tracy I've been friends for a long time we came together to start a business it doesn't mean we have to stop our own personal development and just you know even thinking about your podcast you guys organizational development the other poll is personal development so how we grow and evolve is we're always okay what what's showing up for me that might be uncomfortable that I've got to
(50:44) walk through I have to continue personally develop and we do that individually but we also do it in our partnership as well so just the commitment for that continuous evolution of who we are as people yeah and we we we coach and we are coached we have a number of coaches yes so that's another way that we kind of grow continue to grow and evolve is to be a part of masterminds groups of people that are being coached um and then to have our own individual what advice would you give to somebody who's just starting out
(51:14) and thinking they want to kind of introduce polarities into the work they're doing call us read the read the you know yeah seriously do reach out uh we have our website missing logic.com um and also on our podcast we're very intentional in our podcast whether we have guests or Tracy and I do a lot of solo episodes we talk a lot about the concepts of poity intelligence in a lot of different light so that people can really continue to understand it at a deeper deeper level yeah that's what I would say yeah and I would say start
(51:52) with the book because the book is very simple it's very comprehensive and then take the tools go to the polarity intelligence website and get the tools and do the work don't just read the book start to do the work this is my soap box right do the work use the tools and again start with yourself just start with work and home start with your professional life your personal life or whatever it is that you're feeling the big that will give you the biggest outcome right now at this point in your life maybe that's caring for your
(52:27) yourself and caring for others maybe that's activity and rest whichever It Whatever It Is do the work of starting to move through that creating your own you know map around that your own blueprint around that do your own work think about where am I in my relationships like how healthy are my relationships where do I engage in meaningful dialogue where can I do that more and I think just starting with yourself and then always the one of the other ways is just to keep ask asking the question is this a problem or is it
(52:59) a polarity and if you use that as a fundamental question every time that you run into a challenge you will start to develop that muscle of identifying and differentiating between problems and polarities and I think that that's one of the cornerstones right and then use yourself as a practice field until you begin to feel like you can talk to others and then start with a group that you have psychological safety with yeah that you AR afraid to maybe make a couple mistakes in how you're saying or not say it you know explicitly you know
(53:33) but so just practice the saying of it talking about what they are trying to math them out get a group that you feel psychologically safe with that you can practice with once you feel comfortable with what you're doing and it is such a good book it's I think of all the books on my it's the most read by me and and you can just keep picking up and going back into little bits of it as well and every time you read it there's more tactics that just go oh my and I think if I'm think about things I'm taking
(53:59) away from the conversation and things that I've used quite a lot is helping people have the tools to explore other people's perspectives we just make so many assumptions so much don't we and there's one thing you said there which is taking the time to understand why does someone have that preference just asking questions like that changes the game completely doesn't it it helps you understand them in much more detail but it also really encourage you to talk much more clearer and then when the
(54:25) question comes back to you it just breaks down those barriers that we have between people as well yeah and just holding that bothan mindset right just holding fact that if this and not every conflict or every challenge is a polarity right but when when you know there's an interdependency then it's always both hands so it's it's about complimentary it's not about either or and just holding that mindset I think is really helpful when you're but it's like the gym you got to do the Reps you've
(54:52) got to keep practicing there's no shortcuts there is no short cut to that but you know the more and the more you do it right the stronger the muscle the more readily you're able to see it but if you don't practice that then you know you can't just do it up here you got to just you got to start to verbalize it and you got to start to kind of map things out and I think the book is a great place to start with all of the references that Michelle and Tracy have shared with us today so podcast which is
(55:17) brilliant I've listened to it in the gym many times I do associate you with pain yeah because I listen to it so much I think you should associate us with activity and then some rest and the game the pain and the the game and the game yeah sorry yes it is really good the podcast is brilliant the book is really just a fantastic resource and the website as well there's loads of resources so all of that is in the show notes today Danny what are you taking away from today's conversation oh lots and lots of things I think I love what
(55:48) you said about knowing your own preference polls and kind of being kind of articulating those of your your own and your teams I think if teams kind of articulated that that so so powerful just to have that in the foreground of whatever you're doing um prioritizing space for dialogue overemphasize how important that is and then just always be kind of active strategies for getting the balance right and all the the polls that we're working with well thank you so much Michelle and Tracy in the 20 years I've been working with polarities
(56:13) you have given the most crisp definition I've seen as well so thank you so much and thanks for making time as well particularly just before Christmas is when we're recording it um if you've enjoyed this podcast we'd love it if you hit the like button we'd love it if you go over to the missing logic podcast as well and please do follow that And subscribe to it as well if you've enjoyed this please subscribe it and also share this podcast with other people you think that might find it useful as well there are so many people
(56:35) in the field that might want to be introduced to the idea of polarity intelligence and that will start them on the journey with Michelle and Tracy as well Michelle and Tracy join our brilliant collection of practitioners from across the world but you are first is it a michigian what are you for you from Michigan michigander michiganian so so welcome thank you for that we've loved it it's been brilliant it's such a a great way to end the year for us as well so thank you thank you for making time for us as well and we
(57:00) just just so much luck with your brilliant Venture and helping transform the world one organization at a time thank you this has been such a pleasure wonderful such joyful great way to end our week and our year as well yes thank you [Music]