How to Build OD Capability in your Org with Susanne Sondergaard Gidda from The Cabinet Office - OrgDev episode 48

What does it take to build Organisation Development (OD) capability at the heart of Central Government? In this episode, we’re joined by Dr. Susanne Søndergaard Gidda, the Civil Service Operating Lead in the Cabinet Office, to explore this fascinating question.

With a wealth of experience spanning multiple UK government departments, Susanne brings a unique perspective to the complexities of OD in high-stakes environments.

We delve into what it means to embed OD practices within large, complex organisations, how to nurture OD capability, and the lessons Susanne has learned from her time leading OD initiatives in Central Government. Whether you’re an experienced OD practitioner or just starting your journey, this episode is packed with practical insights and inspiration to elevate OD capability in your own organisation.

💼 About our Guest
Dr. Susanne Søndergaard-Gidda

Connect with Susanne here:
  / susanne-gidda-1939b7 

Dr. Susanne Søndergaard Gidda is a leader in Civil Service Organisation Development and Design capability in her role at the Cabinet Office. With a master’s degree in occupational psychology, a PhD in organisational psychology, and recognition as a Chartered Fellow of CIPD, Susanne brings a wealth of expertise to her work.

Her career spans several UK government departments, where she has honed her skills in organisational development. Susanne has also worked as a knowledge management specialist at Rolls-Royce, leading on communities of practice, and as a senior policy analyst with RAND Europe, further enriching her experience in fostering effective organisational strategies and practices.

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Transcript

(00:00) hi and welcome to the org Dev podcast so what does it take to do organization development in the heart of central government so we're absolutely delighted to be joined by Dr suzan cogal gidder who leads the Civil Service operating lead as part of her current role in this cabinet office she has a master's degree in occupational psychology and a PhD in organizational psychology and is also a chartered fellow of the CPD in addition to experience working in a number of government departments she's previously
(00:28) worked for Rolls-Royce as a knowledge manager M specialist leading on a communities of practice which is fascinating and also as a senior policy analyst with Rand Europe which is a nonprofit Global policy Think Tank and research institute on top of what could already be described an extremely busy and engaging role she consistently makes time to support the OD profession through her work with the cipd and she also regularly conducts fascinating Research Now full disclosure we're big fans of suzan in fact we both presented
(00:58) IM Danny with suzan at the C change management conference and Suzanne gave a fascinating case study about reconsidering management spans of control and how they can be used to improve productivity and performance and it really provoked some great thinking and challenged our assumptions about the role of leaders in supporting people now I was doing some research as well suan I also found some really fascinating Reports online you did a really interesting one on complex decision making as well so so there's lots of
(01:24) interesting things for us to talk about but it really is just such a delight to have such a brilliant generous and engaging gu gu join us today so welcome [Music] suzan so just to kick us off just tell us a bit about the role that you do and what does that involve yeah so i' I've recently picked up a a new role in the cabinet office so in the UK civil service so it's a role sitting as part of the Civil Service strategy unit that looks across what the Civil Service needs to deliver for the future and how
(01:56) we both ensure we've got the right capability the right structure in the organizations to enable that to happen and that's looking across all the different aspects of the Civil Service operating model everything from ensuring the vision strategy is in there but all the way to to culture processes people data infrastructure Etc so how do we make sure that the Civil Service in the UK is set up to deliver it its value for the for the public and what might surprise people about working in the cabinet office what might they not
(02:25) expect oh it depends on what people expect the civil service is so I think depending on if whether or not you take the the negative views that we're a bunch of bureaucrats sitting Talking to Ourselves about things that that don't matter or if we think about really how do we draw on the evidence that's available in and outside government in the private sector from International aspect so so how do we make sure it's a really strong evidence-base that our decisions are made of how do we make sure that the relationship between us
(02:53) the public uh the ministerial team is is is set up in the right way but also that that it's a really passionate organization I think I think there's something about we've got people who are committed to making things work and who are committed to making a difference so I don't know if that answers but it depends on what you think the captain office is doing and whether or not you think the cinet office is or is not doing that so you may be surprised that we are evidence-based or you may say actually I assumed that was the case
(03:22) because you are using public money to to deliver effects for the for the public yeah I think it starts to give people a flavor of what what is like and in terms of organiz development what does that look like in your context what does it involve doing yeah I mean I think all of all of that um so again I know you've on previous podcast we talk about organization design organization development I'd say we're sort of in in in the middle of both of those two things so there are things that we need to develop in the way that the civil
(03:49) service system operates which could be about improving our existing relationships between different functions or it could be about improving relationships in within departments or working with OD and D teams across government to do that uh but it could also be about are we set up in the right way uh and that could include the work that Garen talked about earlier around organizational spans and layers what does that mean in terms of structure on the self but also what's doesn't mean in terms of our our culture and the
(04:17) behaviors and and the values that we P across government and this is a real scale though isn't it so when you're sort of saying we're supporting some other OD teams so some of these might be like the department of work and pensions that's over 75,000 employees multiple locations across the UK and that's just one Department isn't it yeah that's right so so the Civil servic is it's a huge uh system obviously with about half a million people working in the civil service at the moment and each of them
(04:44) so the civil service for those who don't we got delegated authorities so departments can run their organizations in the way that they deem unnecessary to do it there will be links back into what we'd call in the center of government and there'll be um expectations from treasury on how we manage our our public funds um but the perm sex of those departments are responsible for the way that their organizations operate so when we support the teams within those departments um so in my previous role developing their capabilities and
(05:13) supporting uh the kind of challenges supporting them to meet the challenges they've got in their departments we've got the potential impact of half a million people across the civil service and then ultimately what the services that they deliver out to what 65 million people in the UK okay so yes it's it's a it's a huge scale so it's it's a privilege and and it's a I think the only way to approach is with the humility that if I can make one small change in that system for the better um
(05:42) I'd be very happy if I could do that but obviously big Ambitions on how can we make that more long-term sustainable change and why is OD so important to the context you're you're working in why do you why do you feel it's so important I mean I think OD is important in any context so i' I've come from a psych ology background always been fascinating how people people work and we spent a lot of time at work and I think there is a huge potential for that experience to be as positive for those who are
(06:10) operating within because I think it leads to better better work it leads to work being done of a higher quality uh people being more engaged and motivated by having an impact on on hopefully the area that they're working in that they're more skilled to do that but also that the organization has a business sense of saying actually that investment is worth doing because we know that it's going to in the long run make it better so I know we're not a commercial organization but it doesn't mean that we
(06:38) don't cost money so clearly making sure that the way we do things are done to high quality and done with the rest resources we got available so and I think OD can add huge value there and if we think about the way that OD draws on really good Behavioral Science to influence how systems work so I've I've always been fascinating but people at work how we behave how groups interact at work how you can shift things and and I've experienced work environments that have not been good and I've experienced
(07:10) in the work environment they are great and the difference that it has on on me as an individual is huge so what I can do from an OD perspective to make that a consistently positive experience for people at work I think it is fascinating there are other professions and and professionals who can do this and obviously I'd say the OD what to be set apart is be some of our values and the approach that we take to the work you mentioned just about you because you're you're very new into your new role and
(07:35) we'll ask was really curious to see ask questions to me about how do you begin like how do you get the task framed how do you get informed consent from those around you about so the people's expectations are are clear and understood as well I think there's always that experience of being working as a consultant that have been brought in with a particular requirement that that an organization or a unit has has experienced and you come in and are brought into that discussion rather than being um added into a role that's in an
(08:08) existing team so there's something about the team already we're looking at some of these things so a lot of that work on understanding what is what is the requirement for what we do do we understand what the scope is for we don't do we understand where the where the boundaries and and lines are for where we engage and where we don't engage and do we understand the relationships between other parts so we obviously part of a much larger unit that looks at other parts of uh of the Civil Service and and wanting to make
(08:34) sure that we understand what those units are delivering and how we fit into their work and how their work fit into us so I'd say similar to what you might do when you're doing your consultancy work the scoping Discovery phase on where do we fit in what's already been taking place um what's what's already planned that you need to continue or planed that you are thinking ah I think we want to go a different way um and then there is a so that's the starting that would be my my starting point so so where we come
(09:01) from what's the what's the work that's already taking us to where we are today and what are the expectations then on the people that we're working with so for me in this Pro sort of three three four weeks into my role is getting to know the key players in the field and and and making sure I understand where they're coming from so that whatever we do I have got a way on a relationship to work with them and co-design the work that we are we're going to be doing because this is going to be absolutely
(09:26) essential for us to to achieve any any significant long-term impact is that it's a co-creation with a with a wider system which is optimistic when you've got that many people in the system um but how do you decide where you're going to most get most out of engaging and where they are more likely to have that energy to support the work um so getting those relationships and building up that that Network for me and and drawing on the back that that's probably my my starting I've been spending a lot of
(09:55) time reading previous reports where we come from uh what's the earlyer engagement um and set up a working group as well understanding with stakeholders how do we bring everyone together on on this journey your previous role is about sort of capability development and obviously you'll be working with lots of different teams different levels of you know they believe around different lengths of time different levels of maturity and what how do you go about identifying the capabilities that you need to develop is there a process that
(10:21) you follow or like how do you go about doing that tricky so uh in in my previous role there were there were two different elements of it so thinking about do we understand the capability the civil service has in od and in the first instance and do we understand what the capability is that we need and I think for for any leader or or capability lead you you'd always want to keep both those those in in your in your mind as you as you're working through it so if you look at the assessment for how do you assess what capability we've got
(10:50) in od and we actually didn't have a good way of approaching that and and there are not that many I want to say good capability assessment Tools in our space to give us that very clear-cut understanding of it so we we drew on some of the work that cipd had been doing on some of the expectations for an HR in the HR Community or people profession that you would you would draw on to be an OD and practitioner or different levels of expertise um and we drew on some of the work that Dr M Chung judge did on developing H app on on
(11:18) those different specialist areas to see where where does that fit and we then had um colleagues in from a consultany to do a piece of work on uh how do we map out the the capabilities that's that's required to be effective and some of the bits there around what are some of the challenges that we are working on at the moment and which capabilities are most suited to meet those challenges so we could prioritize those in the immediate one and then the next bit would be what do we think is coming around the corner and what capabilities
(11:45) do we need uh to get there so there were some assumptions we had to make around what does it mean to be good and what's and what does it mean to really uh stretch our ambition in in the OD and space in terms of developing that capability our approach was was doing it at different different levels so clearly there's something for what do we do for individuals so how do we make sure that individuals have got access well in the first instance have awareness that there is such thing as OD and and that it's
(12:13) something worth investing in so how do we create that awareness across a wider Community um so it's not a it's not an accident whether or not you find OD and d uh and it's not limited to a very small exclusive group but there is a more uh broader ACC inclusive access to uh OD and and knowing the difference it would make and how it might fit into career's path then it was around making sure that appropriate L&D were available to Learning and Development for those individuals could be accessed through
(12:40) our government uh learning Frameworks the second bit was around how do we ensure that we then continue that that growth and we knew that some of our uh more experienced practitioners or expert practitioners really preferred a more individualized support so that they could pick and choose when they're able to engage or disengage with with learning opportunities so putting in place a number of sort of diverse approach to to Learning and Development and that went everything from a monthly book club discussion could be a podcast
(13:09) could be um articles or or or movies or anything else that had an odian angle into it how do we make sure that we draw that in to people's capability development and that was based on people's interest in having peers to discuss with on OD and and finding that during their normal day I don't know if you recognize this as well there's not always time to just pick up and read that extra journal or pick up that extra book that you've been lying on your on your desk for a long time so but if we
(13:36) had a meeting set in place for it where we could talk through a number of themes that came out of it actually a lot more people would be coming in and saying actually I took up that article I read it and I found that a lot of people even if they couldn't make the actual discussing would still be be picking up the the learning but that was being want to engage if when and then a wider uh community base also on action learning set so how do you have conversations with with peers around OD and challenges and how we bring them forward um we put
(14:06) in place a piece of work looking at supervision and the role of supervision so how do we support uh and and supervise both from a sort of formative but also normative uh approach the the work that we did in od and so that we can ensure that we have people who continue to develop so with OD and D I find that there's always the next step I always find so humble that there is so many things I don't know and the more I read there are more things I don't know about um in the OD and space so how do we make sure we continue on that Jone
(14:36) that we don't just stop and and and grow stagnant in the OD and space so yeah we we try to do different things putting in the formalized learning but also putting in things that supported PE and individual learning and and in groups this many organization development people at scale these are autonomous smart people who very busy must feel like hurting cats as well they are brilliant they're absolutely brilliant abely but but you're right and again some departments would have a lot of that work done
(15:07) within their own departments um because they would be big enough to do it but a lot of departments the odm practitioner might also be the cultural lead and might also be the reward lead in that particular organization there'd only be one so what we could do from a central perspective was provide the opportunity for colleagues across government to come together on a on a common purpose as in I'm really interested in developing my OD and capability and I guess sort segue because we want to ask a question about
(15:34) what was your journey into ad and I imagine like your your work at Rolls-Royce devel communities practice would have been really instrumental in helping you sort of bring that together what was your journey into OD so I studied to be a psychologist um when when uh when I lived in in Denmark and um I in my masters I studied on cognitive science and um and Social Psychology so those two different aspects on on on people operating as a social be but also the internal operation and how we think and and and do things and I did my practical
(16:03) training at a neuro psychology clinic at a hospital where doing lots of you know brain damage uh Rehabilitation and assessment and at the neuros psychology uh hospital I really found much more interesting the relationship between the medical staff and the physiotherapists and the speech therapists and the neuropsychologists and the patients and that whole system around the hospital so I was fascinated on how can you bring that that whole Community around the patient and focus on what does this particular patient need because it
(16:35) wasn't always the same thing that that they needed and that led me to take go to the UK for what was then my intent to stay 12 month for a master's degree in occupational psychology at The Institute of work psychology up in Sheffield where I could for a year go into all the aspects on how toes psychology apply to work in from everything from how does it apply in human factors in sort of industrial settings to to uh training and development to uh recruitment to all aspects of being at work health and
(17:05) wellbeing Etc so that's probably started my interest in how do you apply good Behavioral Science uh psychology to the life at work um I then went out and uh joined uh Ro choice and and worked with communities practice which is really also about how do you improve the organizations how do you improve uh the the sharing of knowledge which was my my interest in my PhD on how how does a big an organization Shar knowledge between different parts of of itself and how do you make sure you bring that back to the
(17:35) way you operate as a as a as a company and and since since then I've I've been in in in roles that were more related to the HR uh space so really keen on understanding on how we work with HR issues so that's in leadership and engagement and more broadly on how how do you apply some of these things in in the HR space to improve the the way that we work and the experience of being at work which I think are two essential parts to do in I then had a stin out and and went to to Rand Europe to work on
(18:07) policy uh which made a lot of sense uh and and for me it's it was a great move uh for really deepening my knowledge of how polic is made how do you best analyze it and how do you apply it but also how do you engage with clients because a lot of that work was leading projects and and working with clients in in the government nonprofit sector uh to deliver projects in as you found your you found research on on decision- making for General Medical Council but also more wi in how do you build cyber security capability in in Europe so lots
(18:39) of different aspects of that and coming back into the Civil Service heightening up my leadership journey within the Civil Service while last year actually going on the ntl certificate program in od to again remind me of some of the things I need to develop um but also continue to deepen my own development and and use of s which we use a lot in the in the OD space and the and the NL program is a really interesting program isn't it I think we talked sort of last year or this year when you were on it and it was a you were finding it really
(19:10) fascinating what kind of things did you take away from it hu just a real desire to do more of the group dynamic work so how how patterns are showing up in groups but also how sometimes you see them show up in in whole systems and how you can then intervene at different levels of that system I think it's it's just brilliant and I think that opportunity to take that time to understand your own role in the Wier system so I think all of us probably think about it when we work in the systems but the the privileg and and and
(19:43) being able to step back and look at it with with new eyes and go actually yeah I need I need to know more about this area to go into this space we also talked a lot about politics and power a lot about privilege and lots of different things where you think think the OD space because of our values we need to be able to work at at and with diversity and inclusion in addition to all the other things we do and just that final question about the group thing because we had someone on for the Tav stck recently and that was they do sort
(20:13) of a 10-day immersion program where it's just the whole group experience and T groups that how do like ntl sort of bring the group thing to life and and what was your experience of it they do uh obviously their theoretical parts of of discussion about groups and then they do te groups training groups as well which is an in series of group interventions and interactions which is like the fight club you don't talk about what happens in the in Te group I I tried five times now to get this out of East you're doing really well to the
(20:42) code your turn next any K so one of the things we like to do on the podcast is just try and demystify OD a little bit for for people so some of the people will see as a bit of a dark art or not really sure what it involves so a question we like to ask is what's a typical day or a week look like for you I think going back to your question about uh demystifying the cabinet office I don't think there is a typical weak sometimes in the role it is not a pure OD role so I wouldn't say I do OD all the time so I think there there is a
(21:14) difference between the work where I think here I'm really developing and working with the organization and then there are bits where I'm a leader leading and managing resources and taking taking things from it you know doing management doing engagement writing writing notes papers I think the the bit where the OD comes in is where I'm intentionally making an intervention for a difference um and sometimes I do that quite visibly um and with if it's with the team I do it quite visibly and explain how I'm doing it and ask them
(21:48) also to do the same because I think there's something about us collectively grow our OD expertise at the same time I don't think there is a I don't think there is a typical week I'm not sure trying to demystify OD so anything that has to do with understanding the organization and understanding the impact that you can have on the organization either directly or through different different routs is probably the the way I describe and and and demystify OD and sometimes that means you get to know and and talk to people
(22:16) and and understand what the organization is that you're working with and how they're working and other times around trying to make sense of uh collectively what is it we have seen and and what do we think is happening so I think think it's it's operating at those two levels what do you enjoy most about your Vault or vs gosh any anything that has the potential for positive impact is is is really is really powerful I think that's probably the thing that drives me most in in the work that if there is a way in
(22:44) which I can make a difference in a positive long-term sustainable me that's that really drives me the other bit is the privilege of being able to be part of and engage with so many different parts of government and the privilege of being led into other people's work environments that's and and and just the willing and passion that people have got when they work in od but also those who are asking questions about OD that they really feel that there is something that can be added to their to their work
(23:11) where OD can make a difference I think that that's really powerful and a huge responsibility to try and keep that up yeah and what do you find most challenging part of it is is maintaining the reputation that it every single thing that's done almost has to work and that's not always the case so having to except when the interventions I do and the work I do is not having the intended impact and still keeping the the motivation up for for continuing and not taking that in a personal way but thing actually that's an exper I tried to make
(23:44) that work that didn't work let me try something else and then knowing when to when to give up and when to continue I think there's a there's a huge balance between that in terms of that kind of when to give up and when to continue what do you look for what are the signals that tell you I'm really bad at giving up so I you'd more like likely than not find me sleepless going I wonder how I'm going to crack that um than than giving up um so I probably not the right person to ask I think if it's continued if there's
(24:12) continued no positive reaction at all the system might not be ready for what we're doing and speaking to other colleagues as well and testing and saying is it something that is related to me and my capability that I'm not the right person to do it is it something else going on so I think there's there's something around making the assessment on when is when is the things that's happening or not happening due to what I and the team have been doing and when is it actually related to someone else and
(24:42) something else what's particularly interesting you in the field of OD at the moment what's what's sparking your interest several things um I think when we when we talked about this podcast really around why why do we know all these things about what makes good work and we still hear lots of people not being happy work so I think that that the that really interesting dilemma of you know we know more about what makes good organizations and good work than we probably did 100 years ago and why is it
(25:11) we are still finding that that's not a consistent experience so that's one thing the other bit is really around all the different ways in which you can do OD and the skill sets and capabilities and uh tools and techniques that OT practitioners can draw upon and I think that element of how do we develop and draw on different things so that I don't want to say AI but I am going to sayi AI because and I don't mean AI from the old 50s I'm saying the sort of generative how can we use now the immense computing power that we've
(25:42) got to do things we couldn't do before um how can we use uh different ways of modeling organizations and the impact of model organizations uh and to predict some of the intervention we might do and and that's contradictory to what we are saying in od that we don't we can't predict what's going to happen we can't predict What's happen but how can we run different scenarios through and give us an indications on what some of the potential Futures might look like I think that's really exciting I think
(26:11) bringing some of that Futures work that other fields have been using for a long time into the field of OD I think is is really exciting so I hope there's more more happening in that space brilliant and just going back to you said you know one of the things you're pondering is why we're you know we know so much about what makes organizations work but we're not we're not doing all of it have you got a hypothesis about kind of what's going on it's hard some some of it is hard and sometimes we sometimes we make it more
(26:41) than it is so often people say I want to fix this whole system everything everywhere all the time for everyone and I go well sometimes we have to fix the relationship today here and now um and and that will help the system but there's a little bit of a leap of faith to to know that if I start doing some positive changes will that make the huge difference and and the work so so sometimes you might hold back for doing something because we're not fixing everything everywhere for everyone at the same time I think in civil service
(27:14) we need to think about that we can't shift the civil service for everyone tomorrow that's not going to happen and and we see this with leaders as well outside of the Civil Service you say they might have been working on something for six months and then they show up on on six month plus one and say to the team are we're doing this now and they all like what are we doing and the just go I don't understand why you don't understand this and they go well we haven't had the same time to think about
(27:40) it that you have so for us we need to do the same six month as you have or maybe quicker so I think there's something around we think we have to fix everything at the same time um there is also lots to keep keep track out you there's lots of expectations you have on different fields on how to do it and sometimes just keeping on top of what the latest thinking in this area and what's actually the right way to do something and but sometimes we just need to do something that we think will make a better impact and then be open for the
(28:08) potential that we're doing with with ethical thinking and and with good good intent one of our FR com phrases is next step to better so yeah you can't fix everything but you can certainly kind of take smaller steps that are next step to better we've got a Bonus question for you and you can decide whether to answer this or not so um um one question we' like to ask is you know obviously there's lots of different ways but you're still a practitioner as as well what tools or methods do you really
(28:35) enjoy using so what's you in the suzan kit bag which is like I know it all depends but you just like to go to and go yeah that's a really good tool that I like to use regularly for me it's the this sounds awful but the dialogue and the conversation Collective sens making so when we bring data together rather than going into a dark room and and and you know Shuff out what the data is and then it comes out the other end so how can we collectively use that to make sense making in with the people that we're working with I think that
(29:08) creates both an energy but also a create a a coherence in what we understand about the data but also everyone's been part of the decision around what the data says which sometimes unlocks a few more things rather than going back so I don't understand where that data has come from or and you might say well you told me and I've just interpreted it but there's something about how do you bring that in so that you're using that as an intervention itself another optional question you've got to pass on this one as well um you
(29:39) your name actually came up in a conversation that we were having the other day surprisingly but very respectfully um a lady called Nims was talking about some work that she did with you and she was hugely impressed with like a cultural audit or cultural inventory that you did is just tell us something about that and how that works yeah I mean I can't tell take much credit for that so the team developed that before I I joined in but the idea was to do a cultural cultural Observatory so how do you make sure that
(30:07) you do a apply a methodology across the Civil Service to pick up what kind of cultural patterns are emerging in the system so or rules so how are things done here so that you could collect all of those different um rules so to speak and see if that tells us something about the Civil Service and the idea was obviously that you've got that available and you can see from the central perspective are are the things where we collectively need to intervene so where the pattern might not show in a department but it shows up across the
(30:35) Civil Service there's a there's an opportunity to uh to help shift the system either to maintain uh the the positive behaviors or intervene where where the behaviors might not collectively be be positive so the team developed up a a methodology that we then allowed other departments to use so they could use it and deploy it within their respective teams it kind of helps you identify the implicit and explicit rules that help govern an organization yes I mean there's lots of discussion I'm sure you've got people
(31:02) talking about culture bit but in terms of you know can you even measure tools culture does it even make sense to talk about cultural interventions or or measurements of culture because as soon as you're measuring it you're you're shifting it so I think a lot of bit was how do you create a overall how do you create an environment in which talking about how things have done and making them explicit and transparent makes it more able for that organization to to intervene so even even the process of
(31:30) undertaking the audits internally would shift up and hopefully open up some conversations that they might not have had before so even just asking that question how do we how do do things around here what kind of rules do we apply um if you can do that in a psychological safe way where people don't feel they're going to be um penalized for saying things that are in the negative side and only be encouraged to to apply things inly posture side that gives a that creates some energy in the organization one question that OD
(32:01) can sometimes find challenging is measuring the impact and success and that they have what does that look like for you in the work that you do tough a tough one so how do you know if the Civil Service shifts its operating model is is going to be the challenge for for me um it's around looking for the things that well trying to measure it as many different ways as possible so sometimes the operating model itself is not the one to measure but you can measure VI ly we not the steps you've taken towards it
(32:31) that usually only gives you a process Sense on did I did I do the things I said I was going to do but if you look back at the kind of pain point or the issues and challenges that were experienced that causes you to look at the operating model as a um as an intervention you would look to see if they have disappeared so there are obviously ways in which we have picked up those pain points through engagement stakeholders but we also do the Civil Service people survey as well which is a cross Civil Service survey that runs to
(32:58) to all civil servants every year all the all the results are online so everyone can can go in and see what the results are so there are things we might be able to track in there as well but for me when you go to someone in a department and say how does it feel here if they are shifting their way of responding that's powerful and obviously you want to make sure that you do that in a in a robust way so that you know that it's representative for for what's happening so if we're starting to see some of
(33:24) those Nick points disappearing obviously you can't completely say that's due to the interventions we do here it'll be a multi multi multi stakeholder and uh interventionist approach for shifting it which completely dependent on what happens in local departments outside in the Civil Service as a whole very tricky very very tricky and but I think try and me it as many different ways as you can and see if there are ways that you both do outputs and impacts as well as uh when not you're doing the things you
(33:54) want to do obviously you've invested in your Masters and your doctorate but you also intensely curious so how do you invest in your own Learning and Development gosh I I want to say I I wish sometimes I want to go back to University and do um do something more and because I love uh reading and I don't find I give myself that time to do as much of that um as I used to um I now that I'm no longer responsible for the C development in in in the Civil Service I can actually attend as a as a practitioner as part of so I'm I'm quite
(34:27) excited of of continuing the action learning sets and the book clubs and the intervention that we've got for practitioners across government um that's probably my investment I try and I've got a stack of books on my on my bookshelves which I haven't come to but um I'm I'm trying to go through them and then talking to intering people like yourself on on what happens outside of the civil service so we keep ourselves um both sane but also invested in what's the world look like outside government
(34:54) are there any particular books or resources when you look back at your own development that really stand out for you as having that you'd recommend other people follow up um I'm trying to think of what Peter War's book was called but clearly I think it just called work psychology um and I'd say that's a that gives a landscape and it's a it's an old book but Peter war was one of our professors at um sheffel university so obviously that was one of the textbooks for the occupational psychology Masters
(35:21) what I like about it is takes each of the different areas on work psychology and and goes into what the what the latest thinking is there keybook in the audience Linda HCK and meanong judges spoke on organization development and the latest iterations of that one I'd say as if I were to start from my OD Journey i' probably start with with those two I'm reading at the moment um on organization design not surprisingly on know Stanford's work and and trying to figure out how how do I bring all of
(35:48) that together and look at the systems level so it's not just organizations systems design at at different levels yeah there's so much out there so coming back to your question on how do you make sure that we why is it with all that knowledge that we can't do it but maybe it's because it looks looks big and we just have to start somewhere and get the depth in each of the areas which is what I like with let me ancient judges OD app um that you actually get an opportunity actually what does my profile need to
(36:11) look at this particular time for this particular piece of work and where the strength I need to work on one of the things we want this podcast to do is to inspire the next generation of OD practitioners organizations design practitioners coming through obviously we're finding there's no one path is there but what advice would you give to someone either considering a career or they could be looking into OD or they could be in HR looking at OD like what advice would you give to they get started I'd probably think first on what
(36:40) type of work do you really enjoy doing if the work you really enjoy doing has to do with being with other people and engaging and and working with organizations then that's probably step one if on the other hand that you're not too interested and curious and how organizations work and um the approach you have is probably to to stay away from it I think there's something about your preferences it doesn't mean you can't go into it but there's something about thinking about the work that you
(37:08) enjoy doing and making sure that the work fits your own expectations and then talk to other people who are in the OD space get a sense of what the work is doing listen listen to podcast uh get a sense of what the work might look like and what kind of things might be attractive uh I do the OD app profiling as well and say actually what some of of the things that that I'm good at at the moment that I need to build on and what are some things that might be needed for for a role in od and D that I'm not
(37:35) already developing and then try and get it's always hard because I think sometimes OD we want people to expert before they engage with it because there's so much risk but sometimes see if there are people you can you can join when they when they either talk to clients the first time or observe it or if you don't have time to do that or opportunity to do it just start observing in your organization if if you're already in an organization you can start looking at how team meetings work you can see how leaders are
(38:04) operating you can see how people are engaging you can see about the relationship they're creating and you can start doing pattern spotting uh and seeing what what happens in your organization and that helps you get a tune into what are some of the things I can pay attention to and it also helps practice you observing at different levels which is which is a skill set that you can both hear and see and make sense of in the moment and and that takes that takes training so you might as well start start doing some of that
(38:29) early on but I'd say take that Curiosity with you in into your into your workspace a huge thank you suzan it's been a really fascinating conversation it's also really reassuring to know that there's someone like you working in a way that you do at the heart of government connecting all the dots and and raising standards as well that's it's really great to hear Danny what what are you taking away from our session today uh lots of things just a few to pull out I think your focus on really improving the experience of
(38:56) people being at work and how important that is for our organizations and and for individuals working them really important I loved what you said about understanding you know when we're starting out understanding the work that's already going on the work that's planned and seeing how what we're we're thinking is going to fit into that and the reflection on is the system actually ready for us to to be in there and do the work and kind of balancing that about our against our own kind of capabilities and interests really yeah I
(39:20) guess my sort three takeaways absolutely ex you know is this knowing when the system is ready or not which stood out for me just in a reate the important of a communities practice and how you need to create the support according to the needs of the individual in their circumstances as well and also just like suzan's method for getting started like understanding what is and what's working and what needs to be done and and and where the gaps are was really fascina I just want to say a huge thank you if if
(39:46) people want to reach out to you or if they want to follow your work what's the best way for people to do that Susan um they can reach out on LinkedIn they should be able to find me there pH on S or if they already know me in government then they can obviously fun me in the cabin office and probably coming to a conference near you as well which is really good well thank you so much V we know you're extraordinarily busy it's been brilliant I know that a lot of people are going to get a lot of value
(40:10) from it as well so thank you your your interview now enters our vault of 36 episodes now with other practitioners from across the world who are all create meaningful and significant change in their own organization so so thank you if you're watching this for the first time we'd really appreciate it if you hit the like button uh because the algorithm Gods really like that um and also if you want to be up to date with all the latest episodes we have a new episode that comes out every single Monday on YouTube and on Buzz Sprat and
(40:37) all the major audio platforms is on Danny Fridays if I send the file on time so please subscribe to keep up to date with it as well but thanks again for all your time and thanks again Susan it's been a brilliant conversation thank thank you for hosting this I think these conversation just adds huge value to the OD colleagues across the world so thank you for doing that thank you we really enjoy them [Music]