Equipping Your Leaders for Turbulent TImes with Dr Arlene Egan CEO Roffey Park - OrgDev Episode 41

What does it take to elevate leadership to truly impact not just a leader’s own performance but also that of their team, stakeholders, and entire organization? In this episode, we talk with Dr. Arlene Egan, CEO of Roffey Park, a global center of excellence in leadership and organization development.

For over 75 years, Roffey Park has been at the forefront of equipping leaders with the skills to navigate complex organizational challenges. Dr. Egan shares powerful insights into transforming leadership behaviours and mindsets, including how to foster critical thinking, build resilience, and drive meaningful change that resonates across an organization.

👉How to challenge and expand the way leaders think, behave, and act
👉Practical strategies for aligning leader performance with organizational impact
👉Key techniques for enhancing team dynamics and stakeholder relationships
👉Roffey Park’s latest approaches to developing resilient, high-impact leaders

💼 About our Guest
Dr. Arlene Egan, CEO, Roffey Park Institute
Connect with Arlene here:
  / drarleneegan 

Visit the Roffey Park website
https://www.roffeypark.com/

Dr. Arlene Egan, Chief Executive of Roffey Park, brings over 25 years of expertise in leadership and management development across sectors like executive education, higher education, sports, and local government. With a PhD in Psychology from University College Dublin, Arlene’s research on enhancing critical thinking gives her a unique perspective on the link between focused thinking and high performance.

Thanks for listening!

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Our professional and highly skilled consultants focus on delivering engaging, results-focused and flexible solutions that help our clients achieve their business objectives.

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Transcript

(00:00) hi and welcome to the org Dev podcast so how do you challenge and strengthen the way that leaders think behave and act not only to benefit their own performers but also of their team their stakeholders and ultimately their organization Roffey Park is a world renowned Center of Excellence for leadership and organization development and for over 75 years it's been at the Forefront of research and equipping managers and practitioners for the challenges and opportunities that organization life brings so who better to invite onto the
(00:29) or Dev podcast than Dr Arlene Eagan the CEO of Ry Park herself Arlene brings a wealth of experience to Ry park with 25 years experience working in consultancy od Leadership Learning and management development and she's got a passion for learning leadership and transformation her extensive experience delivering development ex Excellence spans Executive Education higher education Sport and local government sectors both in Ireland and internationally I believe she's she's off at catle very shortly as
(00:58) well she advises on organizational performance and culture and identifies the right learning environment to promote engagement and development within organizations her extensive work experience is underpinned with a PhD from University College London in Psychology for her work in designing implementing and evaluating initiatives to enhance critical thinking which is going to be a part of our conversation today her PhD was built on top of her Masters in sports psychology which gives her a unique perspective on the link
(01:25) between thinking and performance and how the application of support psychology can happen in our organ organizations now she also has a book called confidence in critical thinking Danny's modeling the book that she's absolutely devoured and is on a mission to make sure that all of our clients understand this really clearly and just some of the big learning points in it as well so so arene it's a real pleasure to have you join us on a Friday afternoon thank you for making [Music] time thank you very much and just one
(01:58) point of correction on that amazing introduction um which I am glad is recorded uh so I can play play that back University College Dublin lot London my um my Dublin colleagues will uh be so quick to come in and fix that I I it says Dublin don't I have London on my mind but this is BR I think it's just because I'm there so often I'm practically a native so uh thank you it's great to have you join us thank you it's wonderful to have you with us thank you just to to start us off just tell us a bit about your
(02:31) role at Ry what does being CEO involve how does that keep you keeps it keeps me busy for sure so I took up the role of CEO uh over two years ago but I had been with rafy park for about three years before that and really my role is to bring rafy Park Institute through its current journey of transformation and you know I think that's the sweet irony of the work that we do at rafy Park because we help so many other organizations through their own journeys of transformation that you know it's good to step back and realize that you
(03:02) know organizations such as rafy Park we also have to go through this change and evolution you know so H we to say that we can identify with our clients in terms of the the pain of change and challenge you know we're we're absolutely at one with clients but really in my role it's you know about bringing to you know I suppose different client groups the news about rafy Park to tell more people what we do as an organiz iation um and of course you know in in my leadership piece it's to to set the direction of the organization for
(03:36) the next number of years so our our three fiveyear strategy um as we're just setting at the moment and so my road is wonderful it's diverse I get to work internally um on you know the the really the really cool strategic um ideas and setting that direction but I also get to work directly with clients uh who you know we we really value and and hold in great esteem our clients are all around the world um and I guess to to work with them H sometimes we have a team obviously that that work with them more
(04:10) regularly but every so often um I'm allowed out I'm allowed into the rooms with them too and and that yeah that's great for me because that's you know ultimately where I came from Ry does so much but for for a lot of the OD Community it holds quite a special place in the hearts of the OD Community for for a lot what makes it so special why do people have that kind of affinity with it yeah well you know the heritage of Coffee Park is so strong so you know um as you mentioned it's over 75 years
(04:35) old um started back in 1940 the 1940s um the idea started a little earlier than the actual um organization itself you know but ultimately the the need was identified after uh World War II when the soldiers came back from the war uh that these individuals needed help you know many of them weren't professional soldiers they were business men they were farmers they were Factory workers and they were sent to war um the trauma of war the disruption that the War caused obviously changed workplaces and changed life at
(05:13) systemic levels and the idea that rafie Park was based on was you know how do we get these leaders and managers back into the workplace how do we rehabilitate them after the trauma of war and help them to see um and understand the new world as it exists and their part in that and you know so this was you know a massive organizational development project you know way back in the 1940s and rafy park Institute was you know synonymous with trialing and experimenting with many different kinds of approaches that can help both
(05:51) individuals and organizations to adapt and to change um and to assimilate into the world as it as it was presenting itself um and so the OD piece is you know it's that experimental piece it's you know it's the the vision to be bold it's the vision to ask questions about the workplace and to challenge um aspects of the workplace as well as appropriate but it's you know it's it's it's that real um idea that we're not going to settle with something that's just not working for people or that's
(06:22) toxic or you know that's not effective and we're going to really look at the impact that different kinds of workplaces have on those individuals that work within them and so it it flipped if you like the Paradigm of organizations kind of on its head in a way and obviously from this very strong rote and very strong Heritage you know we have been the home of OD for for decades you know if we we run a flagship Masters program and OD in people um that attracts an amazing cohort of international students every year and
(06:56) you know it's really important to us that that e pass is very important to us because we still today believe in you know really delivering what matters to organizations depending on on where they find themselves and do you see a common theme in the organizations that are coming you to work with you the challenges they're working yeah absolutely you know I mean I'm talking about the 1940s and the trauma in the world and you know we think about 2024 and the trauma in the world you know it's our work unfortunately it's it's
(07:26) very cyclical so we can't change those bigger fundamental challenges that the world keeps having to face in terms of trauma and disruption um at at a very human level you know um but this impacts businesses you know so what we are seeing is you know we have the pandemic we have War we are seeing organizations really have to work out who they are what they're evolving into who are they serving what kind of people um you know are they trying to attract in terms of talent and retain also and um an eye to
(07:59) the Future f as well so it's a very very complex time for organizations we know that it's a very unstable economic situation as well we're seeing big Brands Clos every week you know those massive Brands um having to close their doors or shed their workforces so the biggest Trends we're actually having is this you know it's it's the the Quest for organizations to get some stability in but you know helping them through through the change process so that they can understand how to become more stable
(08:31) or how to become just a little bit more predictable because yeah the big lesson is that change is not coming to an end right now you know we we are in constant um state of evolution and it's really helping organizations to manage that and bring their people with them as well and obviously an eye to leadership too to make sure that the right leadership is there to guide this process obviously one of the things about Ry Park is it is a beautiful residence like it's on its own grounds and it's one of the things
(08:57) that people really enjoy but obviously and and I imagine that's part of the rehabilitation of taking people away and giving them a different kind of environment to work in as well and and and Danny you've actually studied at Roy Park and really enjoyed the experience yeah I love I've I've been there a couple of times on different programs and adored my experience yeah how how has Ry Park sort of evolved in how it delivers its services and how it actually engages people because I imagine that online is now an element of
(09:22) how you deliver things and also in country because you're also an international organization aren't you yeah yeah so I I always remember the I wasn't the CEO I was a member of the senior team and it was a couple of years back I wasn't that long in rafy park at the time and the CEO at the time uh sat us all down in the room and said right we're going to do something digital so Arlene I want a digital strategy we have to deliver something online and you'll have five years to get this sorted out
(09:52) now I was like five years are you nuts there's no way that we can possibly get you know what we do Rocky with very you know very deep personal work you know how do you how do you move this online so I thought he was Da in five years wasn't long enough for this I think we had about three months before the pandemic hit and we had three weeks to work this out you know and the sometimes a burning platform is an amazing way to mobilize people into action and actually really understand the capability and the willing this
(10:30) within an organization obviously it's not something we want as a sustainable thing we don't always want to be fighting fires but you know when I think about that time and how the the level of experimentation the level of innovation the level of collaboration that we had across the organization because we just had to stay 15 minutes ahead of our clients we were hanging up on people you we couldn't share a screen know and you know you're trying to be slick and sophisticated this was so new to us and
(10:57) yet our clients were going okay thank God Roy parner we were like 10 minutes ahead of our clients at that stage you know um but you know it's all in your execution in terms of your confidence of delivery um what that has done for us though is it has meant that rafie park has been able to get into two other regions you know I I remember one of the richest stories at the time that we were getting a little bit better yeah we we're quick Learners we're getting a little bit better and we started to offer programs for free online because
(11:27) we wanted to help you know everyone in Co right or organizations those wanted to help people and we wanted to help so we put out these um webinar type um type programs which we started calling Navigator you know to help you to navigate your way through this um and uh you know we were able to see people from around the world that we would never have been able to to get in touch with before you know under under normal circumstances they weren't part of our client base and we were about to start running a program it was an afternoon
(11:59) session and it was probably something on you know communication on teams in a virtual world you it was those kinds of topics and we got an email in from um one of the registered participants to say can you hang on we are waiting for a few more people from our village before we can turn on the computer you know and it turned out that this was a village in India where people had gathered around the one computer and you know to fire this up was a bit of a process but they all wanted to sit and learn you know and
(12:34) now you're thinking wow you know without this with without having you know thought like this or the need to think differently about how we deliver what we do we would never have even thought that these communities existed and even cared about what Ry Park was talking about you know so it was amazing how this again really unfortunate burning platform meant that we actually a way to be able to reach and help more people through that and ultimately influence our business model I don't see us going back
(13:07) we're never going to turn off the virtual side obviously we're we're hybrid now but you know that's never going away um and so so the the the business model changed we have participants now from parts of the world that we would have only dreamt to be able to to talk to participants from and the value of this of course is you we get to understand more about organizations and their needs in different areas so you know it's it's been quite an amazing journey for us but one that started off with a very planned
(13:40) approach you know which I had no idea how to solve to right this is the problem go fix you know and uh like many other organizations we found a way through and there's something about helping bringing people with that you mentioned at the beginning bringing people along and helping people feel like a sense of agency and that that fast change and the complexity rather than just the head down going this is too complicated this is too hard so what what do you do to kind of help people have sense of agency when fa yeah well
(14:07) it yeah it's a great question um Danny and you know it's it's funny because we asked that question in the backdrop of what we call change fatigue which I'm sure all of your ODI um people will will be aware of you know this idea of not more change you know and it's a balance between helping people to understand why the change is necessary and and leaders are notoriously bad for going at such speed and having the logical plan in their heads that they kind of assume that well if I'm saying this you you should know
(14:41) I've taught this true so just come on people you know while they're sitting there going but I don't understand and the further you know removed you are from that leadership team the less likely you are to have any clue about what the logic is in terms of the actions that we have you know and so this sense of agency is enhanced when people know what's going on know why we're doing what we're doing and have a little bit of say or input into creating this in the first place and I'm not
(15:10) saying everything has to be by consensus absolutely not but for bigger change initiatives sometimes though the the influencers in the organization are not the leadership team they are champions across the organization who get what's happening and actually they can bring more people with them than the leadership team ever could so so that's you know part of that piece around agency and Leadership and change but people are are quite tired of it too and you know understandably so yeah because I think you see with a lot of leaders
(15:40) they sit with the problem for so long don't they they sit with it for three six 12 18 months and then it's then you share it with people and there's an assumption that you will quickly get it in a town hall meeting if the town hall meeting is presented well but there is a process that people go through in order to sort of challenge those because you you're doing that kind of transformation there's fundamental Med mental models how people perceive the world and their version of reality is being complete and
(16:03) that takes time doesn't it yeah it does and you know the thing where especially your senior leadership or your CEO their job is to have that view you know they have to be able to look across and out and down you know and and so you know they people often talk about CEO very lonely CEO will spend quite a lot of time in their heads they probably don't get the luxury to spend that much time as they would have let's say pre pandemic mic or you know where where the economy is threatening the business they
(16:34) have to move quicker but it's that place because you're trying to connect the dots and if I change this here what's the implication here and that is your job as as the CEO you know you are the one who's tasked with having that view but you're also the one that's tasked with bringing the team with you to help make whatever changes need to happen so you know the hero CEO it's not a useful piece you know it's just not because you find the CEO you know riding off into battle you know probably on a
(17:07) three-legged horse because they couldn't you know pause to get one that actually was fit and healthy for this and you know you've got this people behind you go where where are they doing like you know so you've got to start bringing people with you on this change journey and there's a couple of things you know this is this is the critical thinking aspect this is what leaders need to be better at why am I doing what I'm doing can I you know is there a good reason for this yes I might not have all the
(17:33) answers but if I take this step you know what is it going to do sometimes a Leader's job is to make a decision that's it you know we could never look into the crystal ball you know and go yeah okay magic a ball should I should I not you know we don't have those tools it's often in high ins sight that we look back but understanding the data that I have right now in this minute what's it telling me having people um for for a CEO having people uh around you that you trust to be honest with you
(18:05) you know if you're if you open your mouth and everybody else to stop talking they're not a useful team for you they're not the people that can advise you because they're either scared of you or they don't respect you in some ways or there's something else happening you need people to go I'm not sure about that or have you considered that or yes that sounds fine however d d du but having a silent team around you that you know you've got got to question what's going on there so this is where the
(18:32) critical the critical thinking part comes in what can happen in times of Crisis is that we can default to our quick strategies that we might use to solve simple problems whereas actually we could be trying to tackle a complex problem and that requires us to think in a different way so you know will CEO get it right half the time you know no more than anyone else but what level of thinking and what data are we paying attention to along the way and how willing are we to Pivot and change along that Journey at those points that can
(19:07) help us to get further down the road this is all part of the critical thinking mindset that the CEO has to develop and get confident with so is that what drove you to kind of your inspiration for the book then is that what kind of LED you down that road yeah a little bit um it was interesting because what when I wrote that book I was um actually in in Academia which where I spent a a good number of years and what I realized listening to students who you know are getting prepared for the world of work and this
(19:36) you know doesn't really matter what education system we're talking about but the context was in the Irish context and I would I was queuing for something some service and there was a student beside me and a first year and they were at a desk and the question they asked was about five minutes long without an actual questioning it and I was stand there going this person needs help but they don't even know what they need or how to communicate what they need and I was sitting there thinking to myself
(20:06) standing there thinking to myself how how does this work and here we are trying to prep these guys for the world of work and they're they've come to us at the age of 18 or 19 and they can't ask a question to help them get something that they need something is wrong here and so when I started to think about this um and I was also doing some work around this in my PhD this idea of no how to ask questions and not being afraid to ask questions you know this is actually a really human skill that we don't value enough you know I I
(20:39) I think I report in the book but you know one of the interest most interesting statistics my favorite statistics in the book is that like four-year-old girls ask the most questions H Western girls you know they are the most curious people and they'll just ask you why until somebody goes because I said so you know um and then that shuts it down you know um that Natural Curiosity goes away as we get older you know for many reasons and then we go okay well these people are going into the world of work and we wonder why
(21:12) they can't you know be productive or where's their confidence or you know how are they developing themselves how are they thinking about this I can't ask a question to get something that I need for my University how am I going to ask a boss about my performance or can I do something different or I have a way of doing this task what about this you know there's it's it's not disconnected you know these are key skills and so that was a lot of the inspiration for the book it was you know let's just create a
(21:42) book that people can go through pick up some tools that if they just tweak and again you know you mentioned my sports psychology background when we talk about thinking and we talk about performance it's always simple things if I did one thing this little bit better it could make a massive difference you know and I don't have to think too hard about it so that was really the inspiration for the book how can we just make life a little bit easier for people make better decisions have better conversations and
(22:07) think about themselves in more different way as the father of two girls under six I can can validate that data that is absolutely correct well enjoy it because then it goes away so I was gonna say where where would you suggest people start so if you've got a leader looking at their team thinking you know we're not great at critical thinking we need to build on that where would you get people to start yeah so I suppose by start by really understanding what critical thinking means and you know there's that beautiful um Miss
(22:35) definition uh of critical thinking as being the person that is just going to you know contradict anything that's said or nitpick you know that's not what critical thinking is critical thinking is actually using the right thinking for the situation you find yourself in and and that's an important definition because it comes back to when we're stressed stretched or challenged it's likely that we use the short work puts in life you know as humans we're built for efficiency so we do as it might not
(23:05) feel that it works what we do is little as possible to move ourselves along in this world that's how we operate um so in those situations where we're dealing with complex problems a simple process that that we use to solve easy that's not going to be the best thing for us you know so understanding how we make our decisions how we eval valuate our data you know what do we look for that's important you know the definition of Madness you know they're doing the same thing and expecting different results
(23:38) this is a direct uh result of not actually applying critical thinking because there's an assumption that well if you know let's try it one more time and we'll just see um I see this with many organizations you know we we've been doing this for years and it hasn't been working okay so let's think about that shall we it's asking questions one of the most like in terms of successful organizations and and and what I would say about their makeup organizations where questions are welcome at every
(24:12) level they are the organizations that can actually have an edge so whether that's in competition whether that's in market analysis whether that's in your leadership uh skills and capabilities but that culture that supports um a question and and if somebody in your organization is saying why are we doing that it's because you haven't told them so they don't know so it's actually a really good question now if they agree with you or disagree with you that's a whole other issue okay that's that's
(24:42) something else but organizations that actually encourage and respond in a meaningful way to questions that's key if your senior team aren't asking questions we have a problem you know if they take everything as given there's a problem so it's much more around evaluating the kinds of questions that we're asking the kinds of data that we're using for decision making how often are we reviewing performance do we look back and actually go that worked well if we were doing this again I might
(25:13) change my process I might do something a little bit differently how are we evolving and how are we continuing to learn and that's what I'd say from an organizational perspective from a leadership perspective if a leader isn't carving out time and and I mean this know managers as well I know sometimes the terms can be different but if you're if you are if you have a responsibility to people process H and you're not taking a little bit of time out in your week to go how am I doing you're not
(25:43) engaging the practice critical thinking you know that and and this is where it starts it starts with me it starts with my practice um and it goes out that way so you know there's many things that we could do again easy things that can just help us make a qualitative difference to our yeah and when we actually practice it generally people are quite capable at it it's the developing the discipline isn't it um there a really interesting research by Derek cabrer and he was talking about that people don't
(26:09) naturally take perspectives yeah but when they do they actually can take perspectives really really well so how do you sort of create that environment where people are more likely to be explicit in critical thinking where it is actually kind of encouraged yeah so there's a few things things that can be done and you know even in rfy park you know I'll do this with the the team if I feel that we're stuck you know like that you're going headlong and you're in a you're you're in some kind of a tunnel
(26:38) I'll bring in somebody outside that will challenge us you know that'll get us to lift our heads up and go okay but why are you thinking like that what else could be going on what might those people say what might that stakeholder group say because all of a sudden you start to look around again you shake yourself off and you go yeah now if you come to the same conclusion you go okay we're pretty confident you know let's keep going but if something else tweaks you can kind of go ah okay so in terms
(27:07) of perspective you know and again stress stretch or challenge we can find it very hard to take the risk to ask the questions if we're in the right direction because God forbid we have to now turn right we have to go a different way however isn't it better to find that out earlier and make the alteration rather than just persisting to the end with every odds yeah all the odds stacked against you so you know being able to have um your and we talk about this quite a lot not only at Ry Park but I'm definitely seeing it as one of the
(27:40) key trends for organizations this year your network you know your community H those people that you can talk to and go this is what I'm thinking am I right you know what am I missing in this and the best thing you can do for that person is to start asking them questions you know it's to help them it's nearly like that coach culture we talk about it's to use coaching questions to help to see or to check whether their perception and their perspective is in the right place or if they're missing something so again
(28:10) simple to use a couple of really powerful questions can trigger something that's going to make all the difference in people so if you're not able to do this yourself with confidence then who is it that's in your success team that you can have that cup of coffee with and go this is where I am this is where I'm thinking talk to me about my own head and ask me a couple of questions so I can check and just see if there's something that that I'm missing but even with the students and in the book um and
(28:38) from my own research looking for Alternatives the effort it takes for people to go is there another way you know it's nearly like you know do I have to look for another way because I'm pretty convinced that I'm right you know H that is the one aspect of critical thinking that takes the most effort because we don't really like to do it we like to skip over that bit and go okay I have a plan I've thought it through I know what my conclusion should be I'm on that Journey it's to pause and go okay I
(29:07) think I have a plan am I missing something can I just check over here is there a better way so we don't always have that luxury but it's a really really important question you know it's from a business is looking at your competitors you know what are they doing what are they saying the people that will not buy from me why won't they buy from me what would we have to do to get those customers in the staff that are leaving why are they going you know it's that kind of Nitty Gritty stuff that
(29:36) data can really really help to change the quag and I think you encapsulate really nicely in the book because you you talk one of the things you talk about is counterargument identification saying think past the first idea I think if we had that as a motto for for so many of the organizations and teams that we see think past the first idea would really stick for me brilliant and you've had such an interesting career today so what has been your journey because obviously you hold multiple roles CEO author researcher practitioner what has
(30:04) what has been your journey to this point yeah well it's been um I I think the term that the OD Community now use is squiggly Lon career H I think that is so certainly at the age of 14 I did not ever say when I grow up I would like to be a CEO of BR Institute I was going to be something much more glamorous and adventurous than that back then I'm quite sure um so here we are today so yeah the the journey was the journey was trick was um was tricky was was interesting I guess I I was an athlete as I was growing up I
(30:38) was very much into sports um but actually I F I fell ill when I was a a teenager and that really talk about perspective shifts you know um the the eldest that I had it actually forced me into a wheelchair for two years and things like that when you're in this situation where you've gone from being able to to do everything for yourself to actually being confined in some way shape or form you have to think around your world you have to um flex and adapt and find a way that's going to have you achieve different kinds of goals in
(31:14) different kinds of ways so I was young enough um to be able to to manage that uh and for for a few years I really really got interested um as nerdy as this sounds I got interested in how how the mind does this you know rather than me just giving up or quitting or you know going off to the corner that wasn't going to solve my problem so you know this and I suppose this was what introduced me I wouldn't have known the term at the time but it introduced me into this mindset piece you know um and this this Dynamic kind of realization
(31:49) around you know actually we have agency Even in our darkest moments we have agency and how do you mobilize that at times when you actually just don't want to do anything you know so part of part of that experience you know really got me into the sport psychology because again you know I was was a an athlete played number of Sports at very high level that when that gets taken away from you you know you just get curious you know and and I think that this is where the critical thinking started as well I also was very blessed
(32:24) very fortunate to have group of friends that were high per very high performing athletes and I got to start to see them in a new light and see how they taught um you know some of these attended Olympic Games and you know you're like God you know I I find that interesting the way you solve that problem and I find it interesting the way you think about your performance in that way so I was really captivated by this topic of thinking and performance and so very fortunate to be able to get into a UCD to study uh sports psychology then to go
(32:57) on to develop a framework for critical thinking because I was able to put these two pieces together and you go you know how does your thinking affect your performance and how do we get in our own way and that's always fascinating to me um and then I moved into the world of I started my own business for a while got to make work with amazing clients in that space H got into the world of L&D uh working with different kinds of communities of Learners so you everything for me every day and I think that's why I really love the role that I
(33:27) have I'm all the roles I've ever held I learn something every day I mean I come out smarter than when I woke up that morning you know that's amazing not everybody gets to feel that but I do because everyone I get to meet teaches me something you know it Sparks something in me and so you know being I I started a Learning and Development function in an international Animation studio and that was just phenomenal because those um that th that staff Community they learn a completely different way than somebody's in a bank
(34:00) you know you've got to flex you've got to again you've got to think critically about how do I deliver the best for these people um and how am I doing in this world and so you know finding my way into the exact education space and the consultancy pieces uh again you get you get to to do deep Dives with clients and you learn so much and ultimately it got me to where I am today which I'm very grateful for brilliant and I just one question that I think is probably really useful because a lot of practitioners watch this and a lot of
(34:35) those practitioners are supporting senior leaders and you occupy you know you have a foot in both worlds um obviously moving having all that insight and knowledge but then moving into the seat itself what what what do practitioners need to know or you know what do they get wrong about supporting senior leaders what did they get wrong oh that's an interesting question um it's funny I actually think that the practitioners um I think they know a lot about the senior leaders that the senior leaders think they're not leaking okay
(35:09) it's it's a big thing that senior lead leaders have that they're not leaking anything negative you know people will know that people will see that I'm in control people will see that I'm healthy and I'm honest you know and yes you know they can see the baggies and the the coffee cups you know it's like you're you're leaking um so I think leaders and you know one thing is about those practitioners that are really effective is that they give the leaders again that time and space to kind of go I could do
(35:37) with a little bit of help here you know um the concept of leadership has changed but not all leaders have embraced the freedom that the New Concept of leadership has given which is you know the pandemic has shown us leaders don't need to know the answer to everything okay that's what the pandemic said they said there is some kind of a solution here go and see if you can find out what will work for your organization um leaders had to rely on other people they had to look outside their organizations they have to take help from other
(36:07) sources where they may have been used to doing it for themselves so watch OD practitioners you know it is about offering the right support to leaders depending on where they are in their Journey whether that's psychologically you know I mean leaders all have bad days right I mean you know um people will argue about the concept of of imposter syndrome you know but sometimes leaders will get overwhelmed by challenge they they might not have a clear view you know when a leader can't see away they will panic because that's
(36:40) as we said that's their job you know they have that view and if they can't see through the through the fog or the clouds that is when you know uh somebody the skills to go let's just sit down and think critically about this you know this this is the best form of help we can get or that idea of just sit down and talk to me you know just tell me what's going on because the leader will be really selective in terms of who they are confiding in who they trust H who they want to let Peak behind that
(37:12) curtain you know um and they should be they should be H careful about that but uh they do need to vent because until the robots come in and take over the leadership positions we still have humans there and we do need to to be very mindful that leaders no more than anyone else need holistic support you know so if a leader can lead well um across all of the domains of life you're going to have a better Workforce you're going to have a healthy sustainable Workforce if they are not looking after themselves in in a domain I mean you
(37:45) could be you could be an amazing um strategist but you could be really bad at relationships you know it's not going to help you in your will you know so how can you help leaders to think in that more holistic way that's becoming a very important role for OD practitioners when you look back at your your career so far what are some of the biggest lessons you've learned biggest lessons I have learned the biggest one is to be able to I don't mean laugh at myself but I can certainly giggle uh at things that I do
(38:12) you know um some of the mistakes I have they they've never been I don't work in a life with that situation so it's never been that but you know sometimes just the things you you you do if you cannot giggle at yourself in this role you are missing a trick because you'll do something bizarre every day and learning how to do that and we talked about perspective you again is one of our critical thinking skills you know um I remember when I started my role and um being publicly facing and and I used to
(38:49) lecture to students um I like the stomach pains the cramps i' be bent or you know I can't get through this like I was unbelievable baset case don't ask me to speak don't put me in front of a group and now you know now I'm able to go into a group and I can crack a joke with them I can put them at ease I can you know I can be very human I can trip over you know a step no more than anyone else can and get myself up just often and we keep going things are going to happen very human things are going to
(39:23) happen that I used to punish myself for back in the day that you're now like oh guess what I did today you know and it's it's not it's not a a being clumsy or deliberate it's actually just recognizing the human in me and going yep that was funny I hope it doesn't happen again it's okay and so being able to bring that sense of likeness to your leadership that is something that was you know that I have learned over the years and and just to not take everything as being you know so so
(39:54) dramatic in terms of of things and you also I also learned and this has been a more recent one and I'm sure you're all very aware and your your audience be all very aware of the statistics but it's the realization that if you look at Zoom or teams and you look at the statistics that say people spend most time looking at themselves on these things okay yeah you extrapolate that out you know I could give compelling arguments and speeches you know who's listening right I mean who's actually listening to this
(40:28) and again I used to beat myself up because I'd have forgotten a line or I'd have fluffed something and it was so serious they're not even listening to me yeah maybe dipping in and out you know so being able to put yourself in perspective you know H in terms of the roow that's been been really really useful in terms of the big lessons My Success team which which I know might be a corny term but I couldn't survive that My Success team and My Success team compris a combination of key people
(41:00) family like even as we speak today I am doing this uh podcast from my parents' house don't live with them just I don't have my but I do love to come down because they bring me in a cup of tea and they give me little treats and you know it just helps on those days when you feel low it's just lovely to feel that sense of care um so I've got you know very a very good network of family and friends but I also have a really really great business Mentor team around me who do this out of the goodness of their hearts
(41:33) to help me um and in return I B I will Mentor uh other people but that success team and it's key as a leader saying I need to keep evolving and keep learning that has been one of the biggest lessons you know I took up the CE well I'd never been a CE before can imagine day when it was quite a day what what what does one do here you know but I had a team all already prepped around me you know that just kind of helped me to think things through get myself get myself going and they are the ones who challenge me
(42:13) regular you know so don't get comfortable in your RS always think about what is next for me how can I improve the big lesson I learned was you can only control that which is within your own hula hoop right which is just you you that is what I have control over me so my performance my mood the way I show it the work I do the contribution I give and so you know it's to check that regularly um you know it's it's nice when you hear somebody else come back and go oh you know I was there and I thought this was great you said this
(42:49) this was lovely that that means so much because you know that you're reaching people and ultimately you know that's what I'm in this role or I want to be able to make a difference in the lives of others and that's great and again for me it's to be clear on why I'm doing what I'm doing uh what is it that's actually meaningful for me and I think as I get older you know that becomes a little bit clearer and it becomes more important you know am I in the road where I can do my best work here uh
(43:21) which is to inspire and make a difference in the lives of others you know that's that's why I think I'm here and to be able to check check in on that so certainly my top three lessons are don't take myself toly rely on the wisdom of others to help me get better and to make sure that I am being true to the purpose that I believe in for myself one question we like to ask everybody is how do you invest in your own learning development what does that look like for you currently yeah so I am I take that
(43:51) very seriously actually and I do sad I do a little bit of needs analysis on me every so often so I get I'm very fortunate in the organization that with Rocky Park I get feedback from all levels uh of your organization regularly I have strong relationships with my teams um and they know when I say what do you think or tell me what I need to do or how can I help you more they will tell me and I really really value that because that's what makes us all better so I and and that's a brave thing to do as a
(44:33) leader you've got to get over that if you ask a question you've got to be grown up enough to get the answer okay so that's something that that I do um I also am very conscious of my Evolution so regularly I will check in with and whether it's online courses like I have a few platforms that I just love to to spend time on um so so and it it helps those programs just kind of help me to make sure again as we were talking about purpose or maybe there's something new in terms of thinking or you know I'm
(45:08) very interested as well in the the entrepreneurial mindset because I think that as businesses evolve and and change that having that agility of mind that entrepreneurship often um has you know so I like to be able to see leadership from multiple perspectives so I spend time whether it's reading or whether it's learning you know I'm very keen that every week There's a portion of time that is just about me being better so I can do better right not for me so I can do better for the for for the road
(45:41) and again for for those that that I need um and then I have my mentors and my mentors I have you know that are working with me again blessed to have them very grateful for their time and their and the gifts but they they cover different things so some will cover you know business others will cover brand others will cover confidence you know they they they're they're talking to me about specific things because you know it is to treat the whole person so you know I have an amazing Network um and I'm
(46:13) always trying to grow it not just for me for my benefit to I love to to be able to connect it to new people but also to find Opportunities if I can help I'm always happy to to do that as well if if somebody said you have something that could benefit me you know I'm really really happy to do that too and often you learn more helping someone else you know you get to think about yourself in a different way so you know I've never met a leader who's arrived they I think they have but they haven't I've never
(46:45) met that person and so I really believe that as a leader you're evolving until the day you decide I'm not going to be a former leader anymore you have you have growth to do H and I do take that very Ser as CEO of Wy par you seem like the right person to ask this question of but what advice would you give someone start considering starting a career in organization development or just taking their first steps and these people could either be in HR and frustrated with the way things are happening in their
(47:13) organizations they could be in the operation and going and there must be another way what what advice would you give to people to give that first possible start yeah that's it's a great question um and it's funny because I've met so many people that are actually doing OD work but they don't have the frame or the language to understand that that's what they're doing you know um and so for you know obviously if if you ask any practitioner they'll tell you what they love most and the challenges
(47:45) that they have but it's really around understanding how organization development can make a difference you know and if you if you are aligned to that purpose you know and and that that's always the starting point because if you're going to find the work interesting if you believe in the ultimate OB objetive of um organizational development then you're are more likely to find your way through you know every every job has bits that you're going to really enjoy and bits that you you might not feel so confident
(48:14) in but it's ultimately it's that end goal isn't it it's about you know or developing organizations so that the people in there can flourish so that the clients can get a better service you know if this is what you're interested it in then it's worth exploring but again you know maybe you're doing some of this stuff maybe you know you you already have a little bit of this under your adult and you just need to think in a different way about this formal practice because then you'll have the
(48:43) language or you'll have the Frameworks or you'll have the models and you'll you'll have a different way of thinking about it in a different context and reference point but you know if you are passionate passion is important uh if you are passionate about how you can influence organizations truly better then it's you know start having a conversation with someone in the field best way to do it is to hear live stories you know from other practitioners join networks listen to podcasts like this get a sense of it
(49:14) from people who are there and go can you see yourself doing this work does this resonate with you and you know that's the first step is that Curiosity piece you know that is the first step is to become curious well Al I want to say say a huge thank you you've been incredibly engaging articulate you've really given us a look into the different worlds in which you inhibit and hopefully it's giving people lots of thoughts in terms of critical thinking and the way in which wy's Park can support your career
(49:42) I guess what Danny for you what's one thing that you're going to take away from the conversation today I know we've got many but what would one thing many many many things but I think the thing that stood out for me is the importance of um qu create a culture where questions are welcome at every level of the organization I think if you can start there and make that happen that that's really going to do something quite magical I think for me there there's so much as well but I said the importance of humor the amount of times
(50:03) I've actually worked with aspiring senior leaders they're not quite sure what to do because the organization has said but they they all assume that they should be serious now because they're senior but that is the thing that it hasn't got them there so it's so important isn't it and it gives you resilience to deal with whatever comes your way doesn't it absolutely yeah yeah completely and you know you're you're going to make mistakes you're going to make mistakes and you know it's it's the
(50:27) lightness and if you can do that for yourself if you can be forgiving and compassionate with the mistakes you make you will be like that with other people because other people in your organization are going to make mistakes you know and again we're not talking life and death here talking everyday stuff that impacts the culture in most s when people can feel that they have the freedom to go I tried something and it didn't work I am sorry however this is what I've learned you know and for a leader to go right I take your lessons
(50:56) and we move on you know it's it's important to be able to to do that so it's the likeness of leadership i' call really we we had some feedback on the podcast every day so they want us to do long form like really long interviews with people I feel that we could do a very long interview with you in terms of like all the different things that you're doing um if people want to follow your work if they want to access your book and we'll provide a link to all of these things in in the um in the show
(51:19) notes as well but how can people follow working and if they're interested and curious about how Wy Park can support them in their development as a practitioner or as a leader um where would you sign post them to yeah absolutely so please reach out to me on LinkedIn I am active on LinkedIn and I uh I really welcome um followers and more than happy to have discussions as well so that's kind of the easiest point it's very easy to contact me is that a good thing or a bad thing as in you know even on even on the website like you
(51:50) know direct contact details are already are readily available um you know visit the rafy park uh it's it's Roy park.com H visit the website you'll get to see the different kinds of services that we have and obviously through if there's something specific you'll be put in touch with the right people there um but we you know if we have free events every uh second month for people to come along to that you know are OD focused we just we we just love meeting people we are people business anything that you like
(52:22) we are more than happy to talk about uh with you especially um whether it's to do with your practice or the organization works that you're doing at the moment brilant and we we're in 54 countries you're an international organization so you don't have to be in the UK to contact you you can be further a fielded can't you absolutely yes absolutely yeah brilliant well thank you so much AR it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on thank you so much we know you're extremely busy you
(52:46) just flown back yesterday so thank you for coming on you you're now a very welcome addition to our brilliant portfolio of practitioners from around the world um it's an absolutely Delight um if you have enjoyed this what we'd love you to do is if just leave a like and even subscribe to the channel if you feel it's been useful and if you got any ideas about potential guests or potential areas you'd like to us explore then please do let us know but first and foremost thank you so much Ary it's been
(53:09) absolutely brilliant we've really loved the conversation and thank you so much for joining us thank you for having me [Music]