Adaptive Organisation Design with Dr. Erika Jacobi, LC GLOBAL® - OrgDev Episode 40

What small, precise changes can organisations make to the way they're designed and the ways in which they working to achieve unparalleled results? However it can feel overwhelming knowing where to start and the different options available to them? Today we're off to New York to meet Dr. Erika Jacobi. Dr. Erika is a scholar and practitioner who has dedicated her career to adaptive organisation design guiding organisations through this maze and helping them achieve their goals

💼 About our Guest
Dr. Erika Jacobi
Executive Director, LC GLOBAL®
Website:
https://www.lc-global.com/

Connect with Erika here:
  / erika-jacobi-ph-d-b5261611 

Follow LC GLOBAL® on LinkedIn here:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/lc-g...

Dr. Erika Jacobi is the Executive Director of LC GLOBAL® and a leading specialist in adaptive organization design, with over 15 years of experience across the U.S., Europe, and the Middle East. She develops scalable systems and dynamic solutions for Fortune 500 companies and growth-driven SMEs, applying principles from behavioral science and change psychology to foster agility, collaboration, and strategic growth.

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Transcript

00:00) hi welcome to the org Dev podcast what small precise changes can organizations make to the way in which they're designed and the ways in which they work together to achieve unparalleled results however it can feel over overwhelming knowing where to start and the different options available to them today we're off to New York to meet Dr Erica jackaby Dr Erica is a scholar and practitioner who has dedicated her career to understanding and guiding organizations through this Maze and helping them achieve their goals Erica is the founder
(00:30) and managing director of LC Global a boutique consulting firm specializing in adaptive organization design and development for growth and people Centric organization she's passionate about co-creating deep Effectiveness and transformation across different Industries with offices in New York and Munich Dr Erica takes a customer-based approach to the behavioral sciences and change psychology designing initiatives and systems to in order to empower people to drive desired change she's worked with a wide range of fast growing
(00:59) startups to Fortune 50 companies including Microsoft IBM Commerce Bank and even members of the United Nations as well Erica's extensive field experience is underpinned with a PhD in organizational development and change and a masters in human and organizational behavior which sounds fascinating she's a certified coach with Master Level certifications in Intercultural communication systems thinking and large scale organizational change she's also the fellow of The Institute of social Innovation and she's
(01:27) also an associate organizational leaders ship professor at Colorado State University and also a five times Forbes contributor so so thank you so much for joining us Erica we're looking forward to a fascinating conversation with [Music] you we're delighted to have you with us Erica so just to kick us off just tell us a bit more about LC Global and what your organization does and the work that you do yes absolutely so LC Global the LC stands for leadership and change and we do believe that we do need this
(02:01) globally so that's where the name comes from it's a boutique consulting firm uh and we specialize in organizational design and development actually we do the two in one we believe that the two uh go together we have conducted transformation projects on three continents Europe the US and the Middle East and yeah we love our work because it's co-creative we pride ourselves on always working in a collaborative way and uh it's systemic and it's also strength based uh that's the most important thing for us we don't want to
(02:41) throw the baby out with a bath water when we go into organizations we want to look at the strength and build from there and we uh specialize in working with growth Centric companies and people Centric companies so you describe what you do as adaptive organization design some people might not be familiar with that that term so can you just explain that a little bit more for for us in the audience absolutely I love talking about adaptive organization design so um I think many people confuse organizational development and organizational design at
(03:15) the moment and then there is that be adaptive organization design so just real quickly organizational development is more like the people development and maybe the culture development organizational design is more the structure and uh that's also where I love bringing my degrees in just from a philosophical perspective human and organizational behavior at the end of the day what we're doing is to create organizations and structures that drive behavior and that drive positive and the best behavior and the and desired
(03:51) Behavior so organization assign is more the structures and the workflows and but those Drive Behavior here an Adaptive organization design specializes on how can we set a company up or a team or a division up so that it can adapt to the market fast and that's of course what we need nowadays um so the name of the game is to stay flexible agile but not in the uh not in the scrum calls kind of sense um but how can we really flexibly react to external changes internal changes uh without becoming frantic uh without becoming uh
(04:34) toxic still staying people Centric and that has a lot to do with information flow and how that's distributed in the organization it sounds like a lot of something a lot of organizations would be seeking to to be the way you described kind of the the aspirations so how would you say your approach to this differs to other organizations and other consultancies out there um I would say the collaborative nature um and I'm I'm struggling with a question a little bit because I'm thinking consulting firms which is a different
(05:08) Beast or also companies a lot of companies have organization design uh as an internal role nowaday and there are especially big companies that see it still a little bit as the how can we structure people out really quickly uh kind of affair and um we're uniquely different uh that's actually why we have it on our flag that we work with growth Centric country uh companies because we don't want to structure people out we want to use every resource for an innovation drive and for resilience so in many many organizations it is
(05:49) understood as let's structure people out or uh workforce planning which is an important part at some point but it's not the same Central focus of our work um and then maybe other consulting firms might not have the same specialization that we have we really exclusively work with uh fast growing either units or companies and that uh has a different Focus right so it it almost ex excludes top down right if you're fast growing then maybe you come from a a less hierarchical uh worldview and then as you're growing
(06:32) very very fast you may want to keep that right so whereas if your midsize or Fortune 50 which we've also worked with um then there is the people that want to sort of fine-tune their hierarchies or the people that want to become more decentralized and that want to have a little bit more of a dynamic drive and we love focusing on the latter yeah maybe that's a differentiation and the collaborative data that throughout the the phases of our projects we always involve people and they drive the change we also build teams within the company
(07:14) so we don't storm in with 100 people or 100 Consultants uh we go in um and build a team within the company so that they have the capability of doing it themselves and so that they learn as they go and so that we can actually do it together so it is a different approach so Erica it sounds fascinating and fast growth organizations are a particular type of Beast aren't they because things change so quickly and often like the structure is struggling to keep up with just the sheer number of people entering the organization and
(07:51) often everything is creaking because it's like we're going so greatly how would an organization know that they would need some some support from an organization like yours what would be some of the the indicators to say look we need some external help to come in and help us look at this in a different way I would say the first indicator is that you're growing right I mean it's very easy let's say you started with uh I don't know 50 people and now you're 500 and it's going to be 5,000 or you're
(08:21) 5,000 and it's going to be 50,000 it's very clear that you need to structure things in a different way because ultimately the minute you grow you will have more task Division and task allocation right um sometimes I I talk to startups and they start in their garage or uh in the backyard somewhere and um with a friend but they come out and have two CEOs where I go like H I can see the WR the writings on the wall that that's not going to uh work very long right so then there's going to be hassles then there's going to be
(08:59) fight and so on and so forth so you see it with two people already that you can allocate the tasks um wrongly or not very beneficially so if you're then fast growing let's say you have 500 people and you really want to go uh much much much further and um you are onboarding people and onboarding people then most people really go toward uh hierarchy right so then all of a sudden uh when we have to split task and think how do we create a team around this how do we structure the work the workflows and so
(09:38) on so all of a sudden um there is that let's do a top down kind of thing you know I was here first so to speak so at the beginning of a company you see it very easily so I would say irrespective of your size if you're fast growing it would always be good to get a second pair of eyeballs on the mat right because the what a lot of companies do is they do trial and error and then it goes wrong and then you have more cultural cracks and uh things don't work that well and at the end of the day everybody just wants for things to work
(10:14) well so that you can develop a great culture uh if things are not working well everybody's going to be unhappy right so I would say the first um the first signpost is you are growing the second signpost is and then is is almost too late um there are cracks uh in the wall and in your culture and there is the atmosphere isn't that great any longer um and if you're bigger and people start leaving you then that's that's the sign right so are your engagement rates still as good as uh you were hoping for are people leaving all
(10:55) of these can be signs in different stages of your company you touched on which is like sometimes organizations go for a quick biix don't they all which is let's let's slap a bit hierarchy in there um it sounds like you're endorsing something which is actually no it's it's not necessarily that's the answer what what kind of challenges do you have when you try to get organization understanding that it's not necessar hierarchies isn't always the answer I mean I want to say decentralization is
(11:20) also not always the answer right so uh for me is I mean we have external pressures right so we're growing fast or the market is changing very rapidly uh we want to stay people Centric or else we wouldn't want to work with you so that is our scenario right um and a hierarchy per se is not bad but what is bad is when that is executed poorly and it's not that anybody is sitting there and they want to do a poor hierarchy you know nobody wants to structure poorly and nobody wants to have a hierarchy for
(11:56) the sake of hierarchy um it's it's just just the thing that sort of it's the almost the natural way of doing things right and um having a form of decentralization is almost the unnatural form right so that's where we have to put some more thinking into which processes we want to have and what I coming back to your question of uh challenges right what I find interesting is that naturally we gravitate towards hierarchies and uh top down but when I start talking about processes everybody goes like we don't like processes but
(12:35) what people are not aware of is that they have processes they might just not flow very well right so what is important to us is that it's Dynamic processes and then you got to do some hardcore thinking and in my eyes you got to do the hardcore thinking together right so then another challenge is that uh typical Behavior also so as well is that the top says you know the other people need to change whatever you're thinking let them do that and we'll just sort of support it and um that will also not work because at the then at the end
(13:13) of the day you need to walk your walk right so if you want something like that and if you want to go into more Dynamic workflows and into more Dynamic structures um then the top needs to be involved and not only involved and the top will have to change as as much as anybody else in the room right or in the company or far away because we also do have remote work and then from there you can already see the many many things it touches upon right so then uh which which policies do we have um but it is all process driven in the end so the
(13:53) challenge is to help people understand that um decentralization and more than modern organization design is not Loosey Goosey everybody can do whatever they want to do you know even if it is self organized it underlies processes but the flip side of it is you have processes it's the question is how do you structure them how do they flow and the answer in many organizations in that um situation is they don't flow very well right so that that's why yes so going for a flat organization or decentralized
(14:29) organization from what you're saying it takes us much thinking about if not more thinking about and planning kind of a hierarchical organization I think sometimes we talk to clients and think oh we're going to have a flat structure it's you know we just and then just hope it it's going to work itself out but it always also often feels like it's like kind of borderline chaos exactly and and that's where I always think uh that's probably the worst rap any structure can get right it's like oh it's going to
(14:56) work itself out I've also I found sometimes come across people uh in projects leaders that think can't can't you know isn't isn't that also that they're they can decide their own processes but that's where I actually think uh either we decide on it together so that everybody also knows how to how to act uh within those parameters uh or the answer is no it's you can't expect from your team or your group and division to to build their own processes and do the job and live with a bad
(15:32) culture and all of these things so these things really want to be thought through right it is um it is as much of an uh intellectual process a thought process as any other process as well right and it's also you can change things rather quickly but then are you going to be happy with it right so in my eyes a little bit of uh co-creative planning does not hurt right because you don't want to get into that uh rut of like okay it didn't work we did something it didn't work now let's do something else
(16:09) and let's do something else and uh then people say like well isn't that the fine-tuning that we've always talked about no it's not it's just going into the Chaos level I would say any change requires some thinking it doesn't whether it's decentralization any type of change we want to um mindfully start requires a mindful thought process so Erica um we're dying to know what was your journey into adaptive organization design did it find you did you find it like how did it come something you to
(16:43) specialize in first of all it's been a long journey it's been a very very very long journey of uh transformation of companies and also myself so I started out I want to say it already happened in my childhood um when I grew up in a very very very entrepreneurial family um pretty big company in place and already as a child I knew that uh it's seasonal business you have to do this and this and that and the other so I literally grew up with it I saw the effects of this can happen this can happen that can happen
(17:23) and it makes you uh think then I founded my first business which was a believe it or not a foreign language school for executives and uh I grew that from a one woman show to over 200 people and then we were uh catering to big businesses in in Germany and uh in one of those businesses uh I always say I should have had a desk or they said I should have had a desk that's how often I was there uh we started talking more and more and more with HR and at some point they said listen we want you for something totally
(17:59) different and I was absolutely flever gasted and thought is this a trap you know do they want us out or whatever else but um from there so but already while I had my own company um and it went through so many growth phases I was getting more Education and Training under my belt in terms of like what do we do now like how do we do this Fest because and literally how do we organize this Fest uh which culture do we want to have all of these things but it was also a very very clearcut how do we organize this madness because we offered a lot of
(18:40) flexibilities uh and so on and then very quickly uh we got some tech in so there was my first mini digital transformation but it really transformed uh my own entire company we did things differently after uh we had a tool that would gear everything and it was more and more self-organized so these were many uh steps on my way to going into organization design from there I went more into organizational development with big companies and uh then frankly it was for me the thought that I always thought um while I think
(19:21) it is you humongously important but for me or development per se didn't go deep enough uh because I had noticed that structure drives Behavior so much and uh from there also more and more companies were calling me in for this kind of work and then I thought I better get another degree my first you know I have there is no shortage of degrees so my first Masters was in languages uh so I decided to get another uh Masters in uh human and organizational behavior systems and development which is exactly this this
(19:59) how do you build systems so that the company and the business the people and the business can benefit from this um and then in my PhD I took it to um organizational change and Innovation right so but at some point the more I got called in it was a little bit fear like uh you know bigger and bigger companies wanted me for this and I thought like I better get some more official knowledge behind it and uh and here I am one of the things we love to ask our guests just to demystify the kind of profession of the field a little bit is
(20:39) what does a typical week look like for you um if there is such a thing I think there is such a thing it's um it's just I'm wearing a lot of hats right so it's a small company so I'm doing anything and that's how I like to start my week right I'm doing anything from Business Development uh trying to make sure that we get new projects in uh then who is going to be on the team U you know keeping the team together uh building relationships designing the project uh all of these things what it week looks
(21:16) like depends a little bit on uh how many projects there are and how they are designed and set up um but the way we work is also actually centralized and decentralized at the same time which I think is a little bit of a winner um but how much am I going to be involved in which project there are projects that I'm leading and there are projects where I would just you know come in and do the work design part and other people go more into the development and so on it's then there is different phases of a project for
(21:53) example at the beginning we always do a data collection it's a collaborative dat collection but you want to design this as well so there is a lot of design work in the um in the project phases as well and usually I do that uh predominantly but of course it's also really the plain cut um Business Development sales and so on you mentioned then the data collection phase and I think that's really interesting how when you do that do you make sure the client feels it's their data and they're not kind of
(22:28) Outsourcing the data collection and the results of that to to the consultant how do you keep them kind of engaged and involved anding that data we had that this morning didn't we we were presenting data and we were like these are your findings this is your research and they started to like say hang on at us and it was like we had to quickly direct them back isn't it because it's it's a very easy trap to fall into that's a very very good question uh we make it clear with our methodology so
(22:53) before we even only go in uh before the ink is dry on the contract we will have set a thousand times that we're doing this together and that we're collecting data uh with the help of the people uh on site uh on various levels of the organization so we don't only do the top level we we do everybody in different uh shapes or forms right so we pointed that right from the beginning when we go into the data collection we point it out again uh they will see it and feel it that we're doing this together and and
(23:29) when we then present the data a I mean we sit over the data and and really think about this right and then it's a matter of uh how to present it in my eyes nobody owns the D data the company also doesn't own the data it's like um and nobody has a bigger voice right so the question is like how many people said this and this and this and this um and all of these voice ches matter right so it's not our data because um it's just isn't but it's also not the CEO's data and it's also not the top
(24:09) Management's data and it's also not the data on of the people uh that are doing the heavy lifting every day it is a collaborative effort and this is what this company looks like this is what the people feel here and this is what the people need here and it's the big art of let's listen let let's listen and let's make sense of it together it's also um that I think when you prepare the data you have to give it an extra uh tender loving care moment to really make sure that it has non-confrontational language
(24:52) um that nobody can be identified but there are certain manner M where people start saying oh that was Joe right so you want to make sure that you get those mannerisms out and make it unidentifiable with that said you want to make sure that it still speaks to people right um and then I think during the facilitation because I think presenting data is not really presenting data I think it is a facilitation process then you will also have to iron out the the mannerisms right so sometimes uh I remember I was once
(25:35) working with a with a company where we did this work and uh someone had said we want to have we need more specific goals and the CEO said we need more specific ambitious goals and I corrected him and said that's not what that person or that team said for you and your voice is in there as well you want ambitious goals and you know across several teams people said they want more precise goals nobody in those team said they want ambitious goals at the end of this one was also that in the end the majority of people
(26:13) stated they were burned out right and then you have to facilitate that conversation so that the top can also see you literally burning your people out with one word because everything you very competitive you're very uh and of course that's what you have to be but it is also shortsighted right so it is in my eyes making sure that you truly use the the data to facilitate a process that then enables learning that's absolutely fascinating I think it's possibly a step that people Overlook is because in a way it's it's probably one
(26:56) of the most critical steps in the process isn't it because we all have our perspective of how things are and or how we would like them to be and the data is a form of speaking truth to power isn't it and there's that great saying isn't it is it Derek Cabrera the truth will set you free but first it will piss you off and the way you're presenting that data like there's no other way it will piss someone off but you've got to get it across so that they can see it it's not coming from an agenda it's just it's
(27:23) just what is there's so much skill of thought that goes into that isn't there absolutely and I also don't know whether we necessarily have to piss people off uh you know there might be a a kick here and there you know that might hurt a little bit but ultimately I think we want to enable learning right that's why I also think um our methodology as I said at the beginning is strength based so I want to always remind people of this is your strength right when you say we need ambitious goals ambitious goals
(27:56) ambitious goals this is your strength and that's a wonderful Powerhouse in your realm but right now it's also another Powerhouse to listen what other people need and they need precise goals and maybe with your ambition it's stop being precise but can we not marry the two or do we have to decide to do something else that's the thought process right so there are really no easy answers uh forgot the author but there is that book leadership without easy answers right um was it hitz or weatley I need to look that up but
(28:37) leadership without easy answers there are no easy answers and orc design should really be without easy answers they would sell so many more books if it was leadership with easy answers would they the one question I just wanted to ask because obviously you spent a lot of time studying and that is a really lovely time is it's immersed in change and organizational behavior and all that what were some of the biggest things that you sort of took away from that learning about change in our organizations work what what is it that
(29:09) sort really stood out from me that process for me it was always you know I I did many of my degrees while I was doing project as well right so it was always that the practice informed the learning the theoretical learning and the theoretical learning informed the practice so that for me was a beautiful beautiful process which I'm still benefiting uh from nowadays right I still read more academic articles than I should um you know for me it's become uh it's become a pillar of how I exist right to read read read read read uh for
(29:50) me what has become absolutely instrumental is really to learn there is so much to learn about what's possible with structures uh and so on what sometimes shocks me a little bit uh in general over maybe over many decades there's always this fad or the other fad they come and go and then we have another thing that we want to jump uh you know another bandwagon we want to jump on but there is really many many different ways of structuring an organization and learning about them doesn't hurt doesn't hurt right so we
(30:29) don't need to settle it's a little bit like if everything uh if the only tool you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail right I think that happens a lot in the industry uh but there is so much to learn about how you can actually do that and then in the co-creative process um we always pride ourselves on creating something new the other thing is really that structure drives Behavior right so there is so much Behavioral knowledge that goes into this as well um which structures Drive which behaviors I
(31:05) think that is just there is such a wealth of of knowledge there that I think that super duper helps when you go in um and sometimes it's a little bit the question what was first the chicken or the egg um you go into an organization and you see a certain type of behavior then you can almost guess what the underlying structure is um and vice versa but there are so many uh names of the game that I really think that is and will always be very very insightful uh to me for me it's it's not about learning one way of doing things
(31:45) it's always trying to learn about the many many many possible ways of doing things and then creating new ways of doing it so I also want to be on the Forefront and create new new names of the game right we talked in the beginning about small changes making big differences and obviously structure driving behavior what what might be some examples of small changes people could make in structure obviously every context different but but that you've seen in the past that has made big differences to behavior I would say the
(32:16) biggest is and that that's going to make a big difference in terms of work Effectiveness and behavior is to look at your data flow what makes a system adaptive adaptive yes or no is the data flow right so um I can give you an example we went to the beach on Long Island uh over the weekend and we were driving and using a navigation system but it was an interactive navigation system and um police car reported ahead and then as a user or driver you can say is it still there yes no right and and then it's a
(32:59) very very simple organization and process but it is an Adaptive process because that information so thousands of people click it's there it's not there the police car and then the system adapts because the next driver will not get it if I click is not there any longer that is the simplest form of an Adaptive system right and it has to do with engaging so that we can um react really promptly uh really fast and really knowledgeably and it has to do with data information slow right the company without the interaction with a user
(33:44) could not be that adaptive it's very very easy right so that is the simplest form of an Adaptive system in my eyes now take that to uh an IT team for example you have a global it team and I mean I worked with a number of global it teams and of course they need a lot of processes and how do we regulate that that work because they have to be on the cyber security team for a while but they also have to be on uh on other teams then they have to do some firefighting here but they also have to secure the system um for the future so there's a
(34:21) lot of things going on and I go in and sometimes uh in number number number number of teams uh and Global teams where they don't work off of the same information system um so then the CIO is scrambling to get more data on how are the projects actually running and so on so uh to dynamically streamline that um is very very helpful also to reduce duplicates right ever so often you come in and people have to insert data in different things um then really making so so making sure that you have a an aligned but Dynamic data flow that
(35:11) drives engagement just like is the police car still there yes no it's also I always get so excited when I see that question I go like I get to do something so it really drives a certain excitement too right uh but is everybody informed about the most most important things all the time that is the big question and you need a structure to get there right everybody on a project team like this or on an IT Global team everybody needs to be informed about the most important aspects of where we are and where we
(35:48) want to be all the time and then we need a feed engagement and then we need to do that so that it doesn't uh create a lot of Outsource work right it shouldn't be it it should be an automatic flow uh then avoiding duplicates because that always creates the biggest chaos ever and I know it's really little and small changes but you would be surprised how many people or organizations still suffer from that uh and the next thing is to really make sure that you use the data for learning right as I said we get
(36:30) the data is the police car still there yes and then double Loop feedback okay then we're yes it's still there we're going to keep it in there okay no let's say we get three no then we're going to take it out and that of course has to happen automatically and we should learn from this and people should also have the power to learn from this right so then the the um the information flow goes into self-organized decision making right so because once we have the data then we can really fly with the data and
(37:08) do an act upon it right and that obviously then also changes the role of the leader right so then it's not the leader that says there's a police C there's a police C there's a police C there's a police car right I mean but let's face it how often does it sound like this in on teams right um but there the information flow will show people there is a police car and that's why we're going to do this and this and we don't need to ask anybody about it what would you say when you
(37:38) look at the kind of totality of role what what do you love most about the work that you do what what brings you real Joy when the light buul goes on and there is some true true true change I love it when with little little changes you can make a big big difference and um I truly also enjoy when people notice sometimes it takes an external perspective um because as Garen said when should someone call you in at the end of the day everybody can do this right if you're inside an organization you can also do this yourself but once
(38:18) you're in an organization you're entangled in the changes and in in the Dynamics and then maybe your decision making is a little bit blurred or worse it's it's um stuck in decision making politics of the organization you know when you call an external in we have that external perspective you know there are different ways of doing things and those different ways will also of course expand um the few cases that we've thought about so far so there is more knowledge where that came from but there
(38:55) is most of all the fresh perspective and what what I enjoy about our work is when the light bulb goes on and we do you know we actually do the we make the little changes and everybody said before but we tried this before and it didn't work and hour I say but we didn't try it this way so and then we try it because a lot of it also has to do like will you create a whole system around it or will it be an isolated change we always do a whole system around it um and with that impact then the small changes really go
(39:34) a long long long way and I love that I love that and I love the energy when people feel like now we can actually work and we can do great great work and people are excited and uh and that's where I always say you know we we did this together this was your work and um keep it going keep it going right so but that exciting M that is Unleashed once we've made the changes right um it's wonderful it's just great great great and then just on the flip side of that what do you find most challenging in
(40:08) your work I used to think the waves of a project you know sometimes emotions fly high sometimes they fly really low um but by now I'm really really enjoying that um I find the most difficult part um that in in the sales process for example that you sometimes don't know what people are expecting uh is it that type of company that actually expects you to come in with a 100 people and do change management and just here um this is how we want to want it done and then do it and of course we try to sort of uh
(40:49) navigate that by with our positioning that we really go like we're doing this this way in a collaborative way so don't even ask uh but that is a challenge that people still have a very different understanding of this type of work other challenges is are another challenge might be that when we're talking about rapid growth and change then there is obviously a lot going on in an organization right so you're uh trying to close the deal and then um yeah but now we have a new Co and now we have this and that and the other so we have
(41:31) to put it on the back burner and then when they come back in it's like now we want it super fast so can't we cut it short and the answer is no you know it it takes as long as it does um but of course as we're dealing with a rapidly growing companies or divisions there is a lot in flux and um and that can be a Crux that you need to uh or it can be a challenge that you need to navigate you've had a really interesting career what are some of the biggest lessons you've learned along the way that you'd
(42:05) want to share with people maybe that reduce the steepness of their learning curve an organization is a is a living organism and it has you know if you will it has a psyche it has a soul it has people and then we have 40,000 souls and psyches um I sometimes say like I feel like the house psychologist sort of going around uh uh balancing things out for a while so maybe the biggest Learning lesson in this type of work for me is to really make sure that you yourself stay balanced um and it is very easy you know at the beginning we're
(42:48) more of the external experts but the longer we stay and of course for us it's also very important to leave again at a at an agree upon point but in between when you know the data and so on you get more and more involved of course and it's important on a daily basis in my eyes uh to stay to try and stay balanced uh self-care uh self-balance and um to also go with the flow and to trust the process um that's what I always say to our clients in the middle of it it sometimes feels like this time it's not going to happen but
(43:30) so far in over uh 10 years it has always happened in between there is a little bit of a will it happen this time uh will it work this time at the end it always does but you literally have to trust the process and lean into change and it is the change that's Auto charmer um the change that wants to emerge that sounds a little bit off but is the change that wants to emerge waiting for what wants to emerge rather than walking in and saying like we have to do it like this right and that also goes back to your question at the beginning uh how to
(44:12) show people that hierarchy is not always the best uh way sometimes it is the best way right so we need to stay open and um and we really need to make sure we stay in Balance so that we can be mindful change agent or transform transformation Catalyst uh but it requires a lot of um you know self self balance that's so interesting what you're saying is the the change that wants to emerge because we we do live in a world of wanting concrete outcomes and outputs isn't it we the client says they want this particular outcome but you
(44:52) know when you are moving 40,000 Souls around and new things will emerge from it won't they so I guess there's something around managing expectations in terms of what it will become absolutely the and that's what I always I mean you have to make that clear in The Proposal already right so um a we're we're never going to move 40,000 Souls around and at the end of the day we're hoping that they will um put themselves in a better position right um or else it is that top down change process uh but I
(45:26) think we're slowly going into that that people can have a different position and want to have that different position right um at the end of the day there will be really really big differences right um so I'm not too concerned about that right so if we say we want to agree on something then we will also get there right so that's why I find it so important uh but I need people to stay open in terms of how we're going to get there right uh and sometimes also preconceptions uh I was working on a
(46:05) project where where someone publicly apologized for for being the person who wanted to block this all along was SE sued and um um said like I'm so sorry I thought this was going to be Kumbaya and now it's the only thing we did here that has ever been effective so um but at the beginning you know the guy with the money in the sea Suite was so against this whole thing that he didn't even want to be involved right so and then later on we got him on board and uh and then he publicly apologized because
(46:40) he said wow this is really getting somewhere right so um it is really getting everybody on board and uh but also not waiting until it's it's a process right sooner or later people uh will will want to be part of this and that this can also be a great indicator that you're going in the right direction right it should always be things people really want to be part of part of the reason we we started this podcast was about inspiring the next generation of um OD organization designer development practitioners so what advice would you
(47:15) give to somebody who was thinking they're interested in entering this field or kind of working in the organization good one I mean I would say at the moment there is so much confusion about what's the difference between orc development and orc design and uh all of a sudden there is a lot of confusion and there is also a lot in flux so my advice would be uh what do you really want think about what you really want if you want to get into this career or maybe the or Development Career uh also in both Fields there is a lot of different
(47:54) U sub fields that you can get into and I wouldn't try this without thinking what do I really want to bring to the table what what fascinates me what uh what fuels my energy what makes me feel passionate um and be specific right because if it's just oh I want to get into orc development or orc design I feel like you're going to be uh devoured by by companies who will s say we're going to do this right and then you're uh all of a sudden the PowerPoint person right so be specific do some soul
(48:36) surging as to where you want to be in your career what it is that you really want to be involved in uh because it's not always that um it's not always as great as it sounds especially not if you're in the wrong field right if you're in or in the wrong subfield and orc development and orc design is just not one thing you know a lot of orc designers are in workforce planning um do you want that then that's fantastic for you then go full steam into workforce planning right or do you want something else right um so there is
(49:21) a lot of soul searching to do um and it's a little bit of a cheap answer but it is an answer brilliant well Eric I want to say a huge thank you um Danny and I have really enjoyed the conversation there's been some really interesting takeaways from it thank you for making time this is our second go having this conversation fortunately Danny got covid us time so we had to go so thank you for your patience in helping B together but it's definitely been worth the way Danny what are you taking away from the
(49:46) conversation with Erica gosh so much um I love I love the kind of the thread around co-creating you know the work with with our clients and and the organizations and starting from a strength based position so so important I was really taken by what you said about that nobody owns the data it needs to be a collaborative collaborative effort it's about facilitating and using that to enable learning and the point you made towards the end around self-care and staying grounded um and balanced as a a practitioner in this
(50:14) field but I could have drao hundreds of other things but I'll go with those for now brilliant you still want a coup of mine there because but there's some really good ones in there so I I I've really been stuck with the you know the change that wants to emerge will emerge you know we get so fixed on what it's going to be but you know who knows it's the changes and emerging property of all the different things that we do isn't it I love what you said in terms of like the whole you said about data and what
(50:36) you go through as a process to help present it and really importantly facilitate it and yeah what Danny saiding like nobody owns the data and using that strength-based approach to make sure that people don't feel defensive they just understand what is as well so some some brilliant takeaways in that as well um we found you were try to do us you have a brilliant LinkedIn profile there some great articles on all sorts of different things including things like engagement how can people follow your work or if they want to uh
(51:04) reach out to you they've got questions about adaptive organization design what's the best way people to reach out to you Erica I would say my LinkedIn um I'm sure you have the link and also uh lc- global.com uh there are plenty of ways of getting a hold of me and us so it would be wonderful to hear from people and to have a conversation I'm always open well well thank you so much your interview joins our other what is it now 39 different podcast interviews from people from around the world our last
(51:37) interview was someone from harabi now we've jetted all the way over to New York and I think next week we're back in London so the less exotic but just as interesting place um but we're building a brilliant portfolio of fantastic interviews with practitioners and Scholars like Erica out in the field making really meaningful and significant change so if you've enjoyed this we'd really appreciate it if you'd hit the like button because the algorithm Gods love it and it means it gets spread to
(52:03) even more people and we've genuinely believe that the OD profession no matter where you are on your journey is stronger together and we can share the knowledge on our insights about how we do our practice then we just we can only be better as a profession and also feel free to subscribe so whether you're listen to on audio or listening to on video um we'd love it if you subscribed it and yeah drop us a line if you if you think there's a particular field that you'd like us to interview someone on
(52:26) then please do let us know we're really open but Eric I just want to say a huge thank you again you've been a brilliant guest really insightful and you've definitely challenged and opened our thingy so I'm Absol assume you do the same for the audience as well [Music]