Africa's Change Maker with Dr Justine Chinoperekweyi - OrgDev Podcast 39

In this episode, we explore African OD, how to create change and how to develop the next generation of leaders with Dr. Justine Chinoperekweyi. Justine is a pioneering scholar-practitioner, author, and leadership and governance trainer, joining us from Harare, Zimbabwe. Dr. Justine has led groundbreaking work in defining African OD, a critical contribution to a field that has historically been rooted in Western thinking.

Dr. Justine explores what happens when Kurt Lewin's theories on change meet the African philosophy of Ubuntu. He explains how amplifying African indigenous knowledge and wisdom enhances Organisation Development practices globally, offering a more holistic, whole-system approach to change and transformation.

We also discuss the fundamental values of OD and how they should guide the way we work, as well as Dr. Justine’s experience in supporting leaders, work groups, and organizations to embrace system-wide change across Asia, the Middle East and Africa. His pioneering work challenges traditional Western-centric perspectives and introduces a fresh lens on the future of OD.

💼 About our Guest
Dr. Justine Chinoperekweyi, Ph.D., RODC, COLDC
CEO & President
Centre for Organization Leadership & Development (COLD)

Connect with Justine here:
  / justine-chinoperekweyi-ph-d-rodc-coldc-10b... 

Follow Centre for Organization Leadership & Development here:
  / centre-for-organization-leadership-develop...  

Thanks for listening!

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Transcript

Transcript:
(00:00) hi welcome to the org Dev podcast so being an organization development practitioner can mean you end up operating in some interesting organizations and systems but what are the fundamental values of OD and how should they guide how we work these questions and many more have been worked through by Dr Justin Chino peric way who's our esteemed guest who's joined us today all the way from Harari in Zimbabwe we're absolutely delighted to be joined by a pioneering prolific and multi-award win practitioner Dr Justin
(00:32) is the CEO and president of the center for organization leadership and development in Zimbabwe and also organization leadership and development Network he describes himself as an OD scholar practitioner author and Leadership and governance Trader and he supports leaders work groups and organizations to embrace and manifest whole systems change and transformation his OD is informed by Leading sustainable strategic change and facilitating continuous Improvement while improving The Human Condition and he works with institutions including
(01:05) academic and Vocational systems in Africa Asia and France he's also LED groundbreaking work in defining African OD and this is really critical work much of OD has its roots in Western thinking so imagine what happens when you combine K Leen thinking with Ubuntu and is also multi-award-winning practitioner and has been awarded things such as the organization development Journal reviewer of the year as well so it's so welcome Dr Justin we're absolutely delighted to have you join us [Music] today to kick us off just tell us a bit
(01:39) about the work that you do and what your role roles entail thank you thank you so much uh I'm remain involved in advancing the science the theory and the practice of organization Development Across Africa and and globally and that led me to establish these two institutions the same Center for organization leadership and development and the organization leadership and development Network the whole idea being to democratize system change through embedding and embracing organization development uh principles
(02:16) and practices so my roles therefore include being a consultant and a facilitator where we support quite a number of organizations in Zimbabwe across the African continent and in the Middle East particularly in Saudi Arabia where we are helping organizations in designing OD interventions and currently we are really preoccupied with female leadership development where we are embedding an OD process in uh the facilitation of our female leadership development program I am also involved as a coach and a mentor where I actually
(02:59) facilitate every week uh coaching and mentorship program which is our signature program in organization development and uh we are targeting to have about 100 odd practitioners under this certification program by 2025 we are falling short I think we get about 83 but we are quite happy with the people who have come through the program and the impact that they are really pushing in their different organizations so I'm also involved in research organization development research uh as a scholar practitioner trying to amplify
(03:38) the AUD tools the a techniques and approaches and how they can actually facilitate uh systems change whole systems change as it is so I I consider myself to have a mission of supporting individuals work groups and organizations to embrace whole system change and transformation and that's what I do almost every day so how does OD shape the way you approach all of those things yeah it's that's where my my passion and love for OD actually emanated from the whole idea of elevating humanity and bringing presence
(04:17) to human systems how do we ensure human flourishing how do we ensure organizational Effectiveness so when I then look at organization development in shaping and rehap shaping uh my Approach I look at the premises of a the spirit of inquiry and defective engagement at whatever level starting from my home with my kids going into my social groupings at church and practicing in organizations and making contributions at National level and globally so in everything that I do I have to ensure that it's premised on that Spirit of
(05:01) informed and intelligent inquiry asking questions critical questions opening up the space for good conversations or generative dialogues and effectively engaging people so that we co-create interventions together and that shift from uh me being an expert when people look at that profile that g read they will say oh here comes an a consultant you know and he's going to come and give us solutions to to our challenges and I get in there and I suspend the expert mindset and engage with peace people so all helping me and rewiring my
(05:44) approaches in terms of valuing people treating people as human beings and ensuring that we always co-create interventions with everybody without actually judging people and putting myself uh giving myself of any pride of place so that understanding of human beings the human dynamics and understanding Contex is very critical in in the work I do and my approaches to doing things and thumbs up to O it's all because of my interaction with all folks and uh the research that I'm doing it sounds like you have a really
(06:24) accomplished approach to organization development just have interest like how established is or oranization development in the regions that you work so you work in like Zimbabwe and Namibia places like that like how established is OD is OD um because for example in the UK od's been around for 70 years but it's still on the periphery a little bit it's still not something that you would find in every organization I I would say it's it's in in the context of Africa and speaking of Africa at large OD is
(06:53) not yet really appreciated uh most people when I get into platforms and I say I mean know practitioner people would say oh you are an HR person and um I have to sit them down to say no no no this is not HR uh this is totally different from HR and then explain that there is the HR o which is the organizational development uh which Chris Wally then advocated to say uh let's remove the AL out of so that we Center on whole system thinking and we manifest whole Sy system thinking so in most of our organizations
(07:33) in this context people really don't appreciate OD and we are doing quite a lot of work around publicizing OD and making the implemental OD more visible and we're quite happy that we are now interacting with CEOs and directors and boards to really bring OD to the mainstream of our organization transformation initiatives most people think OD is about change management as well which uh we really try by all means to support people to understand that OD is not all about change management and it's not only about for-profit
(08:11) organizations so my mission when I then look at advancing the science and the theory of OD in the African context is to amplify real OD and get leaders in organizations to appreciate real OD and the complimentary role that real OD plays to HR to strategy to change management and the management Consultants as well I've done a bit of working in Afghanistan and um some organizations in Afghanistan just before the Taliban take over they really have an appreciation of a from my research I think it's thumbs up to Susan ziv May so
(08:53) rest in peace and the work that she had done in Afghanistan around amplifying organization development so we've been supporting the ministry of Justice the Attorney General office team there and they have an appreciation of what real OD is in the Middle East some organizations that we are working with we still have a long way to go in terms of helping supporting people to appreciate real OD and that OD is distinct from HR distinct from uh change management and the uniqueness and value or need really to to to manifest in
(09:33) different settings so I would say we still have a lot of work to do and most of our programs are therefore centered on uh helping people to appreciate this real OD and what it can do to organizations and societies because it can be a real shift can't it for organizations or a CEO bringing in somebody to work with them as you say they're expecting you to be the expert and you're putting that to one side and saying I'm not the expert how do you help them move through that Chang their kind of expectations and mindsets yeah
(10:03) that has been a real challenge because you know when people hear about a consultant they think of a solution provider and here comes Justin and Justin is telling you that I don't have answers to your challenges and leaders will be like so why do we need you here he's a he's a doctor in everything picks me Dr Justin yes then I'll be like no here is a doctor who doesn't know anything but who wants to walk with you and be with you on a journey of really understanding what needs to be done so it's a total
(10:33) shift of reframing mindsets and supporting leaders to to understand an OD process and that whole process of supporting leaders to understand an a process is a challenge because they are used to expert Consulting they are used to people coming and providing Solutions so we go through the OD map um as uh published by in terms of starting with that exploratory dialogue and in that exploratory dialogue we build a social contract that says this is my approach to doing things I put value on the process owners I put value on people in
(11:16) your organization and I'm not the primary change agent because I've been in situations where Consultants will say it's because of me that this organization is where it is and I'm like wait a minute you as an individ ual can't really support an organization through transformation organizations are so complex to be supported by an individual no matter how many phds or research papers you have published but if you leverage on the process owners and you co-create interventions with people in the system we get to manifest
(11:48) more value so I always tell the colleagues that I work with to say our role is to support senior leaders to engage their stakeholders in meaningful inquiries not for us to provide Solutions so we start from that social contract of agreeing with the leaders to say this is the approach that we are going to use and we're going to be leveraging on people in your system our role is a facilitative role and we need solutions from your people and it has worked amazingly well in the institutions that we've worked with and
(12:24) even when you're doing short facilitation programs that understanding critical so that is a shift that we are really pushing in organizations um that we are working with to say a consultant is not an expert a consultant does not come with Solutions Solutions are within your system and let's co-create let's create safe spaces and brave spaces for people to manifest their value and eventually I'll be sitting at the back and your team will be doing the work and you have to pay me for that one of the
(12:56) things and we really do want to sign post people to your example your LinkedIn profile because you can see just the extensive research and Publications that you've produced and obviously one of the things that sort of C rri when we're looking is the work you're looking at in terms of sort of defining OD in Africa and you do some really interesting work in terms of sessions and the fact that OD has predominantly come from Western Society so it has a western at looking at things and you're encouraging people to think
(13:23) about how do you melt that with African wisdom and Indigenous knowledge and that as well and you and you talk about Ubuntu how does that work and can you even Define some of those things for us just to help help us sort of understand what the OD is is potentially being developed here it's an interesting project that U we we recently started around democratizing systems change through an or lens and through amplifying indigenous knowledge systems because every society has some predominant knowledge pillar
(14:00) or philosophies that inform how people operate how people behave and in an African context across the African continent the Ubuntu philosophy is a Cornerstone concept and looking at the principles of Ubuntu you can see that it actually amplifies the missionary of fundamental values of organization development but if you read literature in you rarely find a lot of indigenous African practices and how they actually mirror or and there are researches that actually say Ubuntu or African practices indigenous practices are not favorable
(14:46) for OD but when you look at the African indigenous knowledge systems we value communal practice we value social justice we value ecological uh balance we value all these fundamental values in day so we are now trying to bring these African indigenous knowledge systems and showcas how they support OD work leveraging on the work by K loen because we believe K Len's field theory is a Cornerstone of or but when we look at field Theory and we look at the Ubuntu philosophy and the many indigenous knowledge system in Africa you can
(15:31) actually see that we amplify the uniqueness of our day and also we are also leveraging on Eastern philosophy taism and Confucianism and say if we bring this together and manifest the inclusive value of a will be able to enrich the field and practice of organization development but what we've seen of late is that predominance of Western a and we are now using the term decolonizing or D and allow me to put decolonizing in court because the whole idea of what we are doing there is to say let's open up the conversations and
(16:12) embrace indigenous paradigms in different context amplify them and see how we can actually enrich the practice of a Africa has a rich oral tradition growing up would sit in a round Hut and start sharing stories at night before sleeping everybody sits down and starts sharing Stories the folk tales and fairy tales that's a rich oral tradition in Africa which speaks to storytelling but there is nowhere in a lot of OD literature where we amplify that African indigenous paradigms and how they inform all so I believe the effectiveness of OD
(16:55) should be customized to a specific context we can't fit an organization or a context into an already prescribed model or philosophy hence advocating for let's Embrace these indigenous epistemologies and enrich the practice of a and it's quite interesting what we are finding out in terms of um how the indigenous African paradigms in form OD and we are happy that in in in China there's a lot of work around Eastern philosophy taism and confusion ISM and how it's actually supporting or work there's a lot of research by Dr Tang
(17:39) there which we actually leveraging on to make a case of African a so people then say are you defining a new a when we say African a and they have said no we are not defining a new o we are just amplifying indigenous paradigms in Africa and how they supp support k l field Theory and all the theories that we have in in W it does demonstrate that even a profession that prid itself on its openness and inclusivity can have a real reality bias in terms of like looking for for predominant lens as well I I guess it also really reinforces the
(18:19) importance of of OD practitioners or people that practicing to do it in an international context because then you start to see the world through a lot of different lenses I I remember I worked extensively in China and the way in which organizations and relationships are actually is just so different and it just brings such a new way of thinking about organizations and how communication happens again is that something that you advocate in your students to get International experience and mixed with other cultures definitely
(18:47) if you look at the structure of our our certification program it's made up of people from different uh contexts mainly within Africa and some outside of Africa and that enriches our conversations and you see a lot of similarities in terms of how we should practice and I'm glad that even the international organizations in O they are also pushing for that International perspective I I sit in the board of the international Society for o and change and uh we really have a strong uh International Affiliates where we meet and uh just
(19:25) yesterday we were on a board meeting to say we need to start webinars that speak SS to these different contexts I also work closely with the organization development Network and our recent publication on the organization development review was looking at uh the foundations of K Lin's Theory and they reached out to say we need an African perspective to it and last year we also published leadership and I brought in the African perspective to it and the publication that is coming in China is also saying let's bring Western
(19:58) philosophy Eastern philosophy and African indigenous paradigms together and see what emerges so there's that movement from where I stand of internationalizing uh our our practice and uh manifesting the value of inclusivity n by now embracing especially the African indigenous paradigms is something that I'm really pushing and I'm glad that we have a lot of colleagues who are also advocating for the same to say we need to see indigenous paradigms in Africa in being taught at universities in the US being taught at universities in the
(20:34) in China just as we are teaching Western OD in our universities in Africa and O need to manifest that and that's where we are now bringing that whole issue of decolonizing the practice and manifesting fundamental values of O of which inclusivity is a key value to to that so yes we continue to push for that International perspective and uh it's really working and we're glad that all the institutions in O are pushing that narrative great and can I just ask one geek question if that's okay because
(21:09) obviously I think definition is is really important there people that tune into us in I think we're 54 countries now Danny which is wonderful but everyone is at different stages in their career you talked about the fact that how it meets Kurt leen's Fields Theory could you just Define a little bit about what what you mean by leen's field Theory me just to help people understand what that is no that's fine K Lou field theory is the Cornerstone of a and it I like the view that behavior is a function of the person and the
(21:40) environment as a key part of K L's Theory and we see that in the African continent with 54 countries in Africa all different different contexts and I always give that illustration to the people I I interact with on our mentorship program to say if you take me out of Zimbabwe today and put me in Morocco and visit me after four or five weeks I'll be acting like uh somebody who was born and bred in Morocco what has happened there the environment has actually influenced my behavior and the same is happening in organization the
(22:20) way people behave I always say is a result of the environment that the organization has actually created and designed so so rather than changing a person's Behavior through the carot and stick method as used to be done in the Scientific Management era we need to change the environment but we see most of our organizations they try to force people to change their behavior we have even our governments on the African continent they try to change people's behavior without changing the environment in which people are living
(22:52) and as such we have a whole lot of issues on the African continent because leaders think the best way to lead people is to force them to change their behavior they come up with policies they come up with instruments that try to say Justin change your behavior but the environment is not condusive so we then look at it and when we look at the African or narrative and theun philosophy which then says we are one you are because I am I am because you are so let's sit together let's dialogue and see how best we can move forward as
(23:28) a collective so that's where we really borrow from K lufield Theory and how it is a Cornerstone to O at large and now we are bringing in that to perspective you you're clearly a very Mission driven person you're trying to create change in so many different ways what was your journey into OD how do you find yourself now like how did you discover OD and and how has that formed part of your journey it's it's quite interesting I I started my career as a banker in the banking sector let me not call myself a banker
(24:03) because I got a Bachelor's degree I got a Bachelor's degree in banking and I started working in the bank I I I wouldn't say I'm a banker and I worked in the bank for about eight years and during that time I I was really an ambitious young man wanted to sit with the CEO write emails to the CEO can I have coffee with you can I come to your office I would always love to talk to my managers to my supervisors and my CEOs not because I wanted a promotion but just that desire to speak to people who are way ahead of me and funny enough the
(24:43) doors were not opening for the whole eight years I knocked on many doors of leaders just to say let's have a conversation I need to learn I'm a young man working as a cler in the bank treasury cler in the bank and to me was like he's a nobody what can we discuss with him so seeing and experiencing that leadership led me to enroll for a leadership and management course at Master's level and I was still working in the bank and the leadership and management program at Master's level enlightened me of this new leadership
(25:21) Consciousness that values people this new leadership narrative that says people are in the center and you need to Value even the Leist in your organization and I started looking around and said I need to actually be a PhD so that I would be able to sit with these people who call themselves CEOs and have a conversation with them so my enrolling for a PhD at an very early age was to try and push and get into these boardrooms sit with CEOs and start conversations and pushing this new leadership narrative then I enrolled for
(25:59) a PhD in governance and Leadership with a focus on organization leadership and development and that was a wow moment for me when I started doing research and reaching out to OD people and I'm glad that most of the OD folks that I reached out to renowned distinguished people in od like Robert masach David Jamon Joan Preston Roland Livingstone Peter senson Tera just by an email or a LinkedIn message they would respond and they gave me an here so I started falling in love with OD people even more and I always
(26:42) challenge the people I mentor to see to say if you see someone who says organization development and is practicing real send them a LinkedIn message and you are rest assured that in two weeks they going to schedule a meeting with you and to date we have really gotten that positive response so that led me to love OD people to love the field of OD and to start interacting more with with OD work and now creating the space to be where leaders are and um invite them to this new leadership Consciousness that values people that is a human centered
(27:23) and a such manifest value that we want to see so it was my lived experience IES that attracted me to the field and practice of O and that's why I I work 247 in in od creating space opening doors for people and uh I don't know how many Zoom calls I can facilitate on a day different people and because I used not to get that opportunity when I was reaching out to people I looked up to they would close their doors so when I try to close someone's door I feel like I'm missing out at an opportunity and
(28:01) growing somebody who really need my help so thumbs up to all folks a lot of supported our program to date a lot of guest lectures from people from all over the world and quite a number are willing to continue to support our programs I think we we are growing because of the support and the manifestation of OD values by the people in in od yeah I think you you've hit on something the OD Community is very generous with its time and um wanting to share its knowledge and it experience with with other members uh people within the community
(28:32) and not so you're president of the organization leadership and development Network so what do you really value about most about those types of networks and those communities yeah for for me uh we then established what we call generative dialogues on the organization leadership and development networks which is a platform for knowledge exchange and sharing of experiences and that's one thing that we're really benefiting from this internation networks and the people who even attend our International conferences the
(29:03) sharing of experiences exchanging notes and um just having that space where people talk and share openly without fear or or favor so I I enjoy these International conferences I enjoy these networks because of that supportive role in terms of knowledge exchange research collaborations I think I've collaborated Within number of guys from these networks Cherry Yang uh we worked on another project of the OD Network Patrick tra in Canada David Jamison and all this is as a result of these networks so we see these networks as
(29:44) tools or or platforms rather to amplify our work research and exchange meaningful ideas around what needs to be done so on the first day of our certification program I always share uh with colleagues on the program all the international networks that are that I know of and some of them I've have not even spoke to those in in in the Philippines in Malaysia I just know that there's a Malaysia OD Network sagawa Institute in Malaysia I just tell people to reach out learn what they are doing see what they doing so and I think I've
(30:23) written to quite a number of these other communities and collaborated with them in a lot of uh initiatives I'm actually an advocate for all the institutions so there's no so many facets to the work that you do what what do you enjoy most what brings you real Joy it's it's it's that generosity and uh the availability of uh o practitioners to to support and to amplify the the field because every profession requires that attention so if you are in a profession where people are really doing a lot of work research and
(30:59) and amplifying the work it shows that there's a future of that profession and that's what we see if you look at all the OD conferences that are happening there are two that are happening this month it's all about sustaining the future of a and amplifying the future of OD and to me that gives me Comfort to say I'm in the right place because we are going somewhere with this field it's not just um a field which I'm there for the money but actually for the transformation that that images out of
(31:30) it so OD is a practice profession that's number two a practice profession centered on manifesting real value and real transformation in people's lives so when we are designing interventions we're working with clients our eyes are on the real transformation and sustainable regeneration uh as well so that to me is something that is so interesting because I always have stories to share about the interventions work that we are doing and the transformation that is happening in people's lives and you get into all
(32:06) communities you hear a lot of those stories and case studies which really is is a plus to me I guess one thing I'm sort of fascinate because one of the the many roles that you do you're a supervisor at University for for people doing their different thesis and their dissertations and whatnot and part of this podcast is about inspiring the Next Generation what kind of emerging Trends are you sort of seeing in terms of what people's research is looking at you know are there sort of particular tools or
(32:33) subjects that or is it just it's just a very broad kind of uh range of things that you're you're seeing people come through in terms of what's taken their research interest yeah uh of late thinking of the the current work that I'm doing with students that I'm supervising we are working on Innovation and design thinking and I think it's it's a hype on on on this part of the world issues around design thinking and uh embracing uh that modality that methodology in strategic planning in
(33:05) organization transformation and uh in in Zimbabwe we are pushing the industrialization agenda and the question is how do we really for that uh industrialization using some of these U uh tools and methodologies there's also a lot of interest around for side tools based on the understanding that we are operating in a Dynamic environment and uh the question I'm always asked is how can we plan for 5 years from now and then we see a lot of uh uh postgraduate students working on forite tools and what forsight tools can we use for
(33:44) speculative scanning uh to come up with 20e strategic plans uh is a way of really dealing with this deep uncertainty that that we are living in and uh have a who is also working on a Purpose Driven organization and in this part of the world there has been on an over emphasis on profit making organization so much such that organizations can actually manipulate the market abuse their positions in the market and now we are saying a lot of our organizations on the African continent they are not existing for more than 100 years 10 20 30 years
(34:26) the organization collapses and now we seeing a lot of interest around Purpose Driven organizations and with a bias to the work that I'm doing is the issue around human centered leadership and how do we really manifest that that human humanistic approach in in leadership because I think if you read Around leadership on the African continent there's so much of pushing the self ambition this selfish kind of leadership corruption and African continent and a lot of these issues that that are happening when it comes to our
(35:03) leadership so interest is there now to say how do we cultivate human centered leadership in spite of having a lot organizations are spending millions and billions of dollars on leadership programs but we don't see the leaders actually and I have a colleague Patrick who always asks where are the leaders as much as we are spending all this money on leadership we don't see them so a new narrative around leadership development so the universities I work with mainly they they push leadership governance uh
(35:37) programs and those are some of the areas that the emerging Scholars are really looking into we've got a Bonus question for you you can opt in or opt out of this question you talked about tools there and foresight tools do you have like a favorite tool or technique that you just really find works for you or can work in a range of different C circumstances I I would say the through co-creation we get a lot of foresight because we are bringing different perspectives diverent convergent perspectives to an issue so without
(36:12) going to theoretical tools I will Lage more on co-creation and Theory youu by Oto shama will then come in handy if we really want to dream big if we want to lead from that Imaging future so I would go for co-creation let's sit down let's brainstorm let's have meaningful generative dialogue where do we want to go how can we get there then I I like a lot from the future School uh they they have what they call the natural foresight too which brings in issues around scenario planning back casting design thinking and strategic foresight
(36:51) it's an interesting read and uh I I use a lot of their their their content when it comes to these foresight uh methodologies and tools so co-creation strategic foresight liing on that natural foresight too from the future school I think would uh helps a lot and I was teaching that to post graduate students a few weeks ago whatever we have that asked that question our listeners are pens poised going what's really good out there that sounds like a fascinating and also sh has done some great work as well on the flip side of
(37:26) Danny's question what do you find one most challenging about your work the most challenging about uh our work as a practitioners is I would say that process of U reframing people's mindsets to appreciate the uniqueness and value of an process why because uh people want to hold on to what they know and getting people to rewire and reframe and reform their mindsets it's a challenge and I think it comes also from the perspective that people want to deal with the people that they know and here comes a Justin
(38:08) who's coming with an OD process which people don't really appreciate they kind of pack you somewhere so we are we are really struggling but winning in in in in huge ways when it comes to reframing leadership mindsets and heart sets to appreci at the values of the uniqueness of an a process and where we win people's HS we have managed to get massive wins in terms of the implementation of the the the interventions and manifesting the value that is required so for me it's it's all about reframing that's that's the
(38:50) greatest Challenge and it is so hard isn't it because you know often these are people that you know can be quite mature in their career everything around them tells them that they're successful they have a big salary and the rewards and trimmings that come with it they have the position and maybe the flow of information is to dat is not necessarily Shone a light on maybe that their practices aren't as good as they can be and all of a sudden like the OD mindset is going well actually do you know this
(39:16) way that you're doing it is actually it's not working that that is a real challenge is it what are some of the ways you get that message through yeah it's it's it's that ego to Eco p perspective shift and and in in Africa I think it's it's it's more pronounced I've worked with also colleagues in the Middle East and and and the the Western world but the shift from ego to Eco is is a challenge and that's to me is a true test of leadership if a leader can actually embrace that
(39:50) ecosystemic perspective and do away with their egos you go into organizations and you see these leaders with shiny shoes pin stried suits expensive perfumes and they want to be treated like many gods and everybody else is is not a human being so and we call those people leaders in in in most context but to me that that shift from the egoistic Tendencies and orientations to an ecosystemic perspective is a true test of leadership and we have a few of of such leaders and uh for those who practice real OD it's a test of amplifying and
(40:33) leaving the fundamental OD values if you can actually shift facilitate that shift so it's a challenge and uh I think a lot of leadership models Imaging leadership models are really trying to address that but it's proving to be a real challenge to shift leaders mindsets from egoistic orientations to an ecosystemic perspective what would you say are the key attributes of an effective OD practitioner key attributes of an OD practitioner I I would go to the I use the pillars of OD to to Define that number one is someone who really Prides
(41:10) in action research and action inquir amazing yourself in a client context or in a systems context and eventually co-creating interventions with them number two someone who prides in Behavioral Science knowledge understanding human dynamics and making decisions based on that understanding of human Dynamic we also look at someone who is good at whole system thinking or who ples in whole system thinking creates the space for whole system thinking and when you have that attribute it means you're are breeding
(41:44) everybody to the table you value all the stakeholders or the constituencies in a system and also priz in organizational learning ensuring that the organizations or the systems are fully developed such that the system is actually talking to itself about itself and H it can self renew so if someone has that capacity to create a space where organizations learn and self renew and become fully developed then I would say that person has those attributes and in in an N showell this is a person who is capable of creating self spaces for people to
(42:26) engage in meaningful dialogue and co-create forget about the certificates forget about your o titles and post nominals anyone even a community leader who is the capacity to sit people down discuss dialogue and agree on regenerative interventions that's an amazing AUD practitioner why I say so is because we have a lot of these so-called OD practitioners we have certificates phds and all these certifications that you can get but are not living in manifesting orival yet we have people who have never I think it's
(43:07) from Susan Ziva who have never attended an OD course who don't even know about our terminologies in a but are actually amazing a practitioners and I've interacted with quite a number of them and I wish they could actually teach AUD programs at some of our top universities in the world but they don't have the certificates they don't have the names they don't have the vocabulary of OD so anyone who can actually bring people together dialogue meaningfully co-create interventions that support everyone in
(43:39) the system and develops the system to be at Optimal Performance he's an EP practitioner to me if you look back at your career what would are some of the most important lessons you've learned from the work that you've done that you share with others important lessons in in in my career number one is embrace the journey and see the bigger picture no matter where you are at at any given point in time and I I I highlight that because at one point in my career it was like I'm not going anywhere but that
(44:11) that courage to then embrace the journey embrace the challenges uh the resistant forces and and dreaming uh of of U an idea of future is is very critical number two is the power of network and creating a strong social system to lean on and um it STS up to a lot of Institutions organizations globally uh who have actually uh opened their doors to me as an individual and supported the work that that we are doing and thumbs up to you as well for inviting me on this podcast uh it's it's part of the journey so embracing and and creating
(44:55) strong Networks support system and number three is the need for consistency consistency in the work that you do just like you started this OGD Dev podcast you might have dropped it three months after starting it I was not supposed to be here if that had happened but consistency builds courage and it gives you that thought to continue moving and to see things from a different perspective that's why as you visit my my LinkedIn profiles it's been like that since around 2014 and my social media Pages it's that
(45:40) consistency that has helped me to build this profile and actually the accountability to do things right and the networks also reinforcing that so that consistency is um is key bringing your family to the work that do uh is the last thing that I've really learned and that has really helped me my wife is an OD practitioner my kids are o practitioners everybody who lives with me is an practitioner so so I think that is become a very supportive system uh where where they know that all this Justin does is O and we just have to to support
(46:22) so the Family Support has has been amazing even during the down times of um of my career uh that family support the spousal support has been really amazing and it's it's something that we really need to cherish uh and I cherish greatly so important isn't it and obviously there's lots of books on the shelf behind you and you are steeped in Academia and you do you are a trainer of others how do you invest in your own learning development what does it look like for you I engage with a lot of institutions
(46:57) where I sit and Lear in terms of professional development so there are institutions where which offers short programs particularly around Consulting processes training and development Learning and Development in that area because that's where my strength is so whenever I get an opportunity for these short programs I sit in I learn and also attending these conferences yes we organize conferences but I also attend some conferences even outside of the work that we do in a and that has been very critical peer learning has
(47:37) been very amazing to the work that I do I sit with a lot of mentors I make mention of Patrick tra because we would meet every Wednesday for two hours for about three years and we've missed maybe five or six Wednesdays in two three years and every Wednesday we just sit and discuss or D and his practice because of his 41 plus years experience just being under his mentorship has really been amazing and uh this whole connection with u o distinguished Scholars and practitioners provides that mentorship uh for me and
(48:18) most importantly it gives me a sense of accountability to do more in the field and to actually live and manifest or divine everywhere I find myself so mentors have been a great help some short programs that I attend and also the PE learning from the colleagues that I interact what advice would you give to someone who's considering a career in od or organization development oh I'll be biased to to I'll be biased of that question being an OD practitioner but uh OD is a noble profession it's a profession that actually changes you as
(48:56) an individual and a profession that facilitates real transformative change because it's an it's a practice profession and if you are committed to the pra to the profession it really remodels you and uh ensures that you you relate with people you love people you value relationships and uh I I think relationships relationship is currency when you have these relationships that uh that builds and sustains you you are better off so to to anyone who wishes to join OD I would say OD is a noble profession it's a spiritual profession
(49:39) as well probably because of uh its connection to elevating humanity and of later I've really started reflecting on how spiritual the practice of OD is and it's really a spiritual profession that is transformative and that facilitates regeneration Justin we want to say a huge thank you we said pioneering and prolific I think we we probably should have added the word Powerhouse as well because you've just articulated so many Concepts and it's been a bit of a richness in terms of where do we go with our questions and
(50:16) you know even when we took a slight detour and talked about leen's field Theory you just get such a brilliant account of it as well we've really enjoyed it Danny what are some of the things that you're going to take away from this yeah it's been I've really enjoyed the conversation it's been it's been beautiful so I think I was struck by what you said about the beginning about OD Consultants remembering they're not the change agents they're not they not know come up with Solutions about
(50:36) co-creation with our with our organizations that we're working with I love what you said about the importance of customizing OD to the specific contexts that it finds itself in and I think also the re reinforcing the importance of that capacity of OD practitioners to create safe spaces and really bring people together and see that as a core skill really hard to come up with three so I've got I've got three so I think like first and foremost is it's it's the potential intrinsic biases of OD so being aware of them and just
(51:07) being aware of the importance of looking at other countries and other cultures and how and what they bring and actually it brings so much more richness and complimentarity as well and and the fact that you know a lot of things that OD said is brand new after 70 years has been around I I I now think that OD is an African practice that just happen to get badged as OD so you talked about the power of co-creation you know wherever you are whoever you do it making sure there that sort of shared sense of ownership and
(51:37) how you do it too and also finally just the really empowering piece is that you you don't need to be a PhD although it helps but it you know whether you're a community leader wherever you are just that ability to create a space and ability for people to have dialogue really matters and that's the most pivotal element of OD so it's wonderful I hope everyone who's watching this has got as much value from it as we have I hope it would be a missed Danny we Justin we'd love it to have you back on
(52:04) at some point if you'd be happy to uh to be on here again if that's okay that's that's perfectly fine thank you so much for having me on this I I enjoyed it I Lov it join our wonderful portfolio of other distinguished OD practitioners from around the world and you're very worthy addition to it as well if you are watching this on YouTube and you've enjoyed it we'd love it if you hit the like button and also if you subscribe um we do put these podcast interviews out with brilliant guests like Dr Justin
(52:33) every single week so subscribe to the channel and if you're listening to audio it's available on Apple and Spotify and Amazon and all those wonderful things as well and please feel free to like and comment and the algorithm Gods love it and that means that it even more people can spread out and and hear the word of this as well so thank you again and I just want to say a huge thank you to you Justin it's been really intensely brilliant we've loved the conversation you've really expanded our thinking
(52:57) which is exactly what we set out to do so so thank you so much [Music] [Music]