One Culture in a Global Organisation - Zoological Society of London with Gbonju Akintola - OrgDev Episode 38

In this episode of the Org Dev Podcast, we're joined by Gbonju Akintola,  Senior Organization Development Business Partner at the Zoological Society of London (ZSL), an organisation best known for its two zoos  - London Zoo and Whipsnade Zoo -   but also a science-driven conservation charity, creating a future where wildlife can thrive . 

Bonju shares her journey, from transitioning into OD from L&D roles and shares what it is like to work in truly global organisation - from Thames Estuary to West Africa. Nepal, Indian ocean  and Mauritius where she supports diverse teams, from zookeepers to international policy teams.

Listeners will gain insights into how Bonju applies OD principles, such as systems thinking and cultural change, in an organisation that combines the complexities of scientific research, policy, and conservation. She discusses the challenges and successes of embedding leadership development and fostering a "one ZSL" culture across global teams. The episode dives into the importance of humanizing organisations, balancing tradition with innovation, and finding creative solutions in resource-limited environments.

Tune in to learn how Bonju's experiences highlight the power of building relationships, understanding organizational culture, and driving meaningful change through OD.

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💼 About our Guest

Gbonju Akintola
https://www.linkedin.com/in/gbonjuakintola/

Thanks for listening!

Distinction is an evidence-based Organisation Development & Design Consultancy designed to support modern, progressive organisations to bring out the best in their people and their teams through training, consulting, and coaching.

Our professional and highly skilled consultants focus on delivering engaging, results-focused and flexible solutions that help our clients achieve their business objectives.

Find out more at https://distinction.live/how-we-can-help/

💡 Stay Connected:
Looking for a consistent source of leadership & OD tips? Subscribe to our weekly newsletter by clicking the link below and receive valuable leadership tips directly in your inbox:
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We'd love to connect with you on Linked In:
linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
https://www.linkedin.com/in/garinrouch/

Transcript

(00:00) hi and welcome to the org Dev podcast so what is it like to practice organization development in a truly Global organization from the temp estri to West Africa to Nepal to the Indian Ocean and even maius we're absolutely delighted to be joined by bonju akintola today now unfortunately bonju wasn't in Marisha for us to conduct this interview because we offered to go meet her so we're actually doing it from our own offices today but we're actually delighted to have bonju join us she has seen organization development business
(00:32) partner at the Zoological Society of London it's an absolutely fascinating organization which is a science-driven conservation charity really focus on creating a future where Wildlife can Thrive now you probably know of the zsl as if it's effectually known for its two zoos London Zoo and whip snade as well it's also one of the UK's leading conservation organizations really interestingly science underpins all of its efforts with researching forward not just its conservation work but also helps governments around the world set
(01:02) National and Multinational targets to adapt their policies accordingly and they're also at the Forefront of research into zuntic diseases that spread from Wildlife to animals as well as animal specific diseases now bonju is a wide range of skills but describes herself as a performance and Leadership coach OD practitioner and she's passionate about supporting individuals and organizations to excel part of her role is working with senior Executives to crystallize their organization culture and Ensure that is evidence in
(01:31) the lived experience to their many employees and customers as well bonju has lots of experience in L &d and prior to this she worked at the House of Commons where she moved from L&D and transition to our wonderful profession organization development and she's a a very welcome member of the community as well she's backed by extensive professional and academic qualification she holds an MSC in people and organization development from Ry Park so welcome bonu it's great to have you on [Music]
(02:00) so it's really lovely to have you with us so just to get us started just tell us a bit about your role what does your role involve I work as a senior organization development U business partner as Gina said but along with it comes as a small organization the training department is also part of it my role involves so many things I could be called into EDI and work with EDI groups I have an opportunity to work both on the global level um organizational white projects but also support individuals and teams across L&D
(02:30) OD and all in very interesting I find a way of bringing OD into all looking through whatever work I'm giving through an OD lens so interest excited and very varied so how does OD inform you say you use the OD lens to look at the work that you do how does that inform the work you do and the approach you take one of the main thing especially is is having that system thinking heart on and looking at things systemically especially in an organization like zsl that um we do s varied and different things within the
(03:03) small organization so we've got we've got an instit Institute of zoology which is Affiliated to UCL has his own complexity made up of researchers Professor up to Professor level then we've got another team called the conservation policy team uh and they deal with government relationship policy um passing policies and they have all the um offices International offices we have two zoos we've got the London Zoo and we've got the whips Zoo zookeepers we've got curators we've got um vets
(03:38) we've got hospital so having all together is about seeing the link and how do we stay as one organization the chief exec uses the term one zsl and so with that in my head what does that look like what does that mean looking at UD looking at as a system as one system for seeing how do we ensure the connectivity how do we have one culture how do we reduce asyo working and be able to um and able to work together towards that Vision we all have and passion which is a world where Wildlife thrives what do people get wrong when they think about
(04:13) your organization when they think about zsl what might surprised them the same thing that surprised me when I got the job when I applied for the job because all I had in my head was London Zoo not in my wildest did I think in a day we having a chat with HR managers in Thailand and and trying to figure out the training needs in Nepal about and you know and then working with professors who like oh my God so it's the same thing people assume that you come when you come of Z all you think is about the zoo but it's got so many
(04:47) fascinating bits about it that except you get in or you're interested in conservation you wouldn't know about the different things that we do so it sounds like there's no shortage of challenges things to get your teeth yeah yeah days a new thing and how do you prioritize where you where you focus your energies with kind of with so much to to look at your my personal Drive which is I want to help everybody I want all of them are interesting all of them are exciting all of them are juicy for for for for change
(05:15) when you want to do and to look at the fact that you have limited resources so sometimes is to look at the time frame or the impact will have that itself is not even easy but I have a wonderful direct my director of hat people on culture that I report to is a very good sounding board so sometimes we sit with and say all these are coming to me all are coming at me and to decide but this is what I think is priority and be able to uh you know see what can using the metric what's important what's important
(05:47) what's urgent but also to work with somebody and find what can wait but while waiting what can I waiting not making them see as if I've ignore them or I don't think the child is important what do small you know like small uh Solutions I put in place what could be an email I could check what could be something to hold the space and hold the interest and respect while I while I get others so while I go into more challenging things so yeah so sometimes it might be what is more I will focus it might not be an
(06:20) organizational white thing but it might be challenging a team that has a tendency of of blowing out of proportion or getting into deeper problem so yeah I have to weigh which one has the greatest impact per time something that Danny and I were talking about with another couple of Cs we got is where you've got an organization where you've got people that have very different professional identities that they come together Under One Roof so you know as you're describing there you've got scientists
(06:45) you've got vets you've got administrative stuff they all come together and I guess what you're describing as a really great thing there's a there's a higher context that binds us together but we still have to get on operationally what what is the role of OD in helping those different kind of uh professions get on together and helping them communicate one good example is so we just I just launched a six months leadership program um even though for now we're doing the UK and then next year we're going to extend it to the
(07:16) directors um in the international office and the orientation so is six months model but this this first which was this month the orientation one of the things we're encouraging which is new was so uncomfortable as for people to drop their title and and and come as me and so we did a lifeline and and they did their lifelines and they had to discuss their Lifeline a professor discussing his Lifeline with the head of commercial and feedback I'm hearing from the directors that they were saying what was that because that wasn't what they
(07:50) thought they were coming for a training and that's one of the way to help people to say that preaching you know that the organization is human rather than and looking as a machine is one of the uh metaphor I keep trying to build into people's thinking because everyone is passionate about what to do and everyone assumes what to do is more important or more urgent or more linked to you know the the vision than the other so the first thing about looking at us as humans and and also helping us understand our culture what is do
(08:23) culture mean how we do things here and so how can we do things in such a way that we leave our values and and and still retain our passions and our desire but see each other as humans and be able to work together I found that orientation really fascinating to watch people break it was difficult to remove themselves from their titles and and their jobs so that's one of the ways we're trying to cheaper that that that that way way of thinking of that's been cultural for a long time zsl is 2 200 years next year
(08:55) we've done things the same way for a long time which is a whole other range of things there's so much tradition in there is we do things the way we do is that something that Z and the OD function is particularly trying to do which is like what are the Traditions that have make us strong and how do we keep up need to update our ways of working it's hard and sometimes doesn't work one of the things I enjoy about this is that agency I have to to be able to try things out and use the wisdom to know when to pull back and say this
(09:22) we're not ready for this yet so last year we have an annual conference St conference um every January and I thought wow it would be a good time for me to do an an action research and I thought let's do something about we are an organization this is the place where and I wanted people to finish the sentence and you know action research is more like research learning and you know and then moving on and that's one of the way I was trying to help us start to visual what is our culture and and and but it
(09:54) didn't work because we weren't ready to move around to the learning bit about it and then iterated another that okay we moved move move forward so that's what I believe the OD function I've not been there too long so it's it's it's working progress obviously you've come in from is the House of Commons was your previous organization you've gone into the ZL how how do you begin like how do you begin the role like understanding what needs to be done and in what order and to sequence it or even just to get
(10:22) to the bottom of what's actually happening here for you you've got relationship building I mean that that's just it I don't know no clue it was very different world but before I got to the House of Commons I was coming from Ford Motors it was also a different world but if there's one thing I think I'm good and I enjoy is is getting to know people so it was about it's selling and then because I've run my own business for a while I think I've gotten I think I've mastered the fact that no matter what
(10:49) it's selling I we a small organization I produce everything my newsletter my I produce everything myself so going back to your question is about talking to the different team talking to individuals find out but with that mind about your Gatherings is more like Gathering the data needed for you to know to start recommending the needed changes or areas you know of of change the first thing I was noticed was that we were still using doing the PDL was the you know the oldfashioned PD once a year and I could say oh wow this
(11:22) is an opportunity for us to this is the area I was the first that was the first project I did was how do I turn it around into you know the quarterly conversations the quarterly um um um appraisal rather than end of year and that was to just testing water and to around to people and see what do they think of it and then got to my director let's R and pilot pilot with zookeepers get from each team one from each department one team to take part because a pilot is an experiment isn't it like you're going into an
(11:57) organization you're just learning how it works and so rather going right everyone's PDR once a year is going to change we're going to new policy as from first of April your a pilot allows you to learn so much data how how open would the organization to running things like a pilot I think they are because they're scientists so they're researchers because they're mostly researcher I think they're used to those kind of trial and error to get things so I think that makes it easier to know that yeah
(12:24) and and but this but it's different if the pilot is something you're not really interested in or you're scared of or you're suspicious of that what what what do we have to change this especially when you think it will add more work because they had to have month they came with monthly onetoone conversations checkings that we weren't culturally used to you know the designing the uh the structure in such a way that monthly checkins and quarterly conversations which then are the PD that you that's
(12:54) where the assessment takes place but interestingly the pilot worked well and have um catch- up sessions with all the pilot for feedback what's working what's not working and the excitement was just am amazing amazing with even the the team of some of the teams you think are are traditionally not going to engage like the ground team you know who you you say well my objec is always the same you know I just money the ground and getting the managers and team leaders to start to have conversation with them and they
(13:27) took it and became so creative with them that because um the first feedback was they they actually changed they say not to have the meetings in the office so they had meetings over coffee so the checkin was over coffee or the walk you know they're walking on the grounds but that because I told them look it doesn't have to be formal and not everyone has not everything has to be written and the the had the excitement at the first Gathering of the the pilot to get feedback was oh B during the conversation they found out that there
(13:58) was a grounds man who had a degree in Zoology worked with this guy for several years and didn't know that personal information about him but because there were three questions how are you how are you doing how can I help was The Guiding guidance question for any check-ins then they went to so the line and these are those team leaders they're not even senior managers decided to go to the vet team and say we have a zoology graduate who's interested in just shattering you guys can he come in free time and said
(14:29) yes and this guy's excitement as watching the first autopsy you know and how it impacted his work on the ground whereby the the passion you know and and the managers the line managers of team they looking at the fact that I enabled this and that's the kind of thing you start to see the shift happening and then people calling on you now to now start looking at things all right you won't call it OG but whatever area they need things to shift to change and they not calling the OG you team into that to
(15:00) hey can we talk about this and stuff and when you do a pilot who are the best pilot participants in your perspective is it bringing in people to participate in it that are just really Pro kind of new change you know they're going to be the people on board is it to bring in the people that are likely to be most reluctant but might be skeptical or is it a blend of them or you know does it depend I guess just in interest to hear your view it's a blend it's a blend because you need encouragement of the
(15:28) people who you already know that they run with it no matter what because they believe in it and if you're going to make an organizational wide intervention or change you better bring along the people who you already are skeptical and that was I was talking about those teams who normally wouldn't do things that because then you can foresee what's going to happen with other um potentially um challenging teams were not engaged with it but also start to use these ones who you now have brought over to the engaging side as the stories
(15:57) I tell the at every launch the new way of doing things organizational why using these stories to engage people bringing these people to talk at some of my of my of my briefings you know asking them you mind me mentioning names and stuff so you need both sides of those who will encourage you and be easy that run with the vision and reduce the workload on you on their side while you focus on those that might be more challenging we really love to ask this question what was your journey into OD I've unconsciously always been interested in
(16:29) understanding how people learn and helping people learn and so after University back in I'm Nigerian so went to my first degree was in Nigeria and I can't remember it was because I didn't have a job I I have a first degree in English and and so I I going to private primary schools with a dictionary and sell my skills and like hey can I work with your teachers and I focus with a dictionary because um we've got mother tongue interference I don't know if you've ever had the term mother tongue
(16:58) interference whereby you because we have different dialect you can hear in my langu my accent and I'm not British and but there's some words that are completely can't be pronounced because of the sound different the same way you can't call bonu the way I call bonju because GB does not exist in the phonetics of English so the same way about some English words or phonetic that do not exist in Nigerian languages and help the teachers in these private expensive private schools um explore possibility of practicing using
(17:30) phonetics you know the transcription we call it um and then going with them also and then extending you to storytelling about working with them or how could it be more engaging engaging storytelling skills and stuff so that's how I start I started I didn't I didn't call it training then because I didn't know what it was and then well life went on I said getting to career and and then my first training job was with the St citizen advice Bureau um and I became going into training found about cipd did
(18:06) my the first level I think they used to call C CTP certificate training practice um and then moved to Cambridge assist cab as a training manager and but there was always a curiosity curiosity about why do people go and training courses especially when it comes to customer service all those but they come back and there's not change and I was always curious about what was what was what was missing in all this training we keep chunning out sending people and or or you do team bonding people go and they do all those
(18:40) spaghetti and and and and marshmallow things and they come back to the office they're still not talking to each other and you spend thousands of pounds taking them on that and then I I exploring coaching because obviously coaching has always been mentioned as one of the training methods and decided to explore coaching more and then went to again my qualification in performance coaching and then leadership coaching um I said NDC became my coaching supp at some at some point and and and so that helps trying to see that it starts with
(19:14) mindsets it start with self it starts with self-reflection it starts with having accountability and that was what coaching could help bring that change um and behavior and knowing that it wasn't just the training um in training we talk about 70 2010 you know that olden day principle that that really mattered um and then as I started read reading ST going to webinars I started hearing about system thinking and working with complexity and that was like oh that that's even deeper because but I could always see the human angle
(19:50) that yeah that that relates to how people work with chain or how people work out relate out work and demonstrate Behavior so and I I wanted so I'm I I'm always going for one I like learning and then I but I wanted to get the best of the best so I found out about ruy Park and then I yeah so I went for my MSC in ruy park in and then go the MS in people in Udi so throughout I found out I've been working with this principle but not knowing it so it was more to like really understand it better um I like working
(20:23) with culture and exploring when is how we do things here what does that matter living the values that we true to ourselves to values understanding where there's a this this this alignment between individual values and organization of values and helping organizations realize that just writing your values down put it on the wall will not bring the the engagement of the buying and also wanting to know people might not run with it because it's counter to what my personal values is or are so there that's how I started
(20:56) getting into this and I not my work history so it's been from L&D and and and then into into coaching to OD um so you mentioned Ry park there so Ry is quite an important place for some people in the OD Community um how did you find that experience how did that shape your practice um it I mean I still have people I work with now are calling to to who are maybe that that we did the course together who have got groups of um because their um approach to learning then was is self man learning I think that was one of the things I led the
(21:31) most about it that you could go anywhere you wanted to go you had guiding principles but then it wasn't modeles about modules and modes you just wrote your paper and it was also peir learning so the fact that you're in a group of five six um um um peer peer support and you have to assess each other's paper I think all those things it made me look at education differently and learning differently um and I enjoyed it I enjoyed it because the only things that yeah there are areas of AD I'm not OD
(22:04) I'm not that skilled in because I didn't explore it but I think it at least gave me an opener to the wide what we call the map of OD but I like the idea that could I could find a niche I wanted to go into I saw people going into complexity and they're really good at it now and so when I'm working I have like a like the leadership program I'm running Abra someone I know because I worked with that for two years and I know she's ha this SC to come in to work in that area with the leaders and and
(22:34) Lead that particular model mod module for of the course so yeah very different but but I think it made it more real the only challenge the only sad thing was and then because it was International people came from I mean my set in my learning set there was somebody from Hong Kong and then there was somebody working in in um Saudi Arabia we had a French person and then people from across the the UK so having that open your mou even to see the cross culture cross culture awareness people from France that were using words um we call
(23:10) derogatory here and and in all innocence just used it as a normal word I was shocked to hear that no you can't say that about black people you know and that in using that to build that that people not everybody came out comes out intending to be rude but because they're just different so make understand that so the same way me as as an immigrant can look at the can think about me not being rude but just being me I start to think about other people but it was nice to have that variety of people but covid
(23:41) happened and sadly we didn't get to see each other as we thought world when we do Masters we put so much work into our dissertation but then no the world never hears about it and I thought what was yours on yeah so mine was um I had an opportunity or twice I've had an opportunity to talk about it at the at a podcast but I was I was the research question is how do we create a culture of belonging for blacks in the workplace so it was not too long after the the killing of George Floyd in America so it
(24:11) was quite fresh and so there was a lot of material so I had such it was a wide read but it was eye opening to me some of it very sad but at least for a spoiler alert what were your findings what how do you create a sense of a community belonging ah it's about inclusion but also is about difference ID appreciating differences understanding that just every black person was still differ um the Caribbean is different from the African um same with Asian whether well as I said M was based focused on blacks the findings we we've moveed we've come
(24:49) a long way but the the belonging happens with you accepting me as I am uh but that also had his own interesting twist because as I said it happened during Co and hearing people who would tell me I don't put my camera on then you know we all win him because I don't have the the person the L I had in the office and I don't want them to see me any any differently and that's because the wig I wear in the office I don't want to wear it at home so I'm taking off my wig I don't wear my makeup so I've got my hair
(25:23) now you put the camera on to talk to me because you see me as one but you will not put the camera on official setting because they already see your BL your long straight hair and yet I would tell I can tell the wig others can't tell the we so because of that you won't put your camera on so when you're talking about creating a sense of belonging it also was are we also putting are we also the barrier ourselves are we also putting those barriers ourselves so that was one of the things I was reflecting on but
(25:54) it's about having that inclusion but what does inclusion look like inclusion means not long permit together inclusion means creating that safe place for me to be me um I had people say that um they came to work wearing African patent um dress and they were called aside by their sen man this was a project manager and said a sen manager comes after meeting and says if you want to go higher in this you better not come like this to work again um and then people saying that right we talk about Ally ship which is one of the one of the if
(26:30) you want to create that belonging that allyship that mentorship that um but allyship doesn't mean it means if you're going to Mentor me and and and you want you're talking of representation of more black people in Senor positions then when I come to a meeting and you take me along to a meeting don't let me sit at the seat behind because as long as I'm sitting behind I always been seen as the hand and this person talked about the opportunity her her director who was mentoring her will bring her to sit on
(27:03) the conference table and ask her what you think of that and that's how you Empower people with the confidence and there they're saying you can be you deserve to be on this table and so when the jobs kept coming she could not apply because she's tested the water she's tested it and and she I don't always speak rubbish i' actually have ideas so yeah this I'm not open in a long while but those are the few things that come to mind now and and a lot of the things would be uh potentially interpreted in different
(27:35) ways like you know we'll often you'll probably see this like managers thinking our teams never put their cameras on and so they attach a different story to it all but but people aren't having those conversations where they feel safe enough to to to explain why and to find a new way of being isn't it as well so I'm so glad we asked that so thank you it sounds fascinating on so one of the questions we like to ask all our guests is what does a typical day or typical week look like for you for me because of
(28:01) as I say I'm like everything is chocked into my role which sometimes can be frustrating some sometimes also as I said it's juicy and very depending on how much time I'm not sure there's a typical I have a like a typical day so like a week so I mean I can start a Monday and it'll be like maybe I'm have running a leadership Workshop or some training Workshop of A Sort and then on Tuesday I could be sitting with conservationist and looking at our Deon ization policy or work because one of
(28:31) the things lell is skin on is decolonization of science which literally saying we're changing the narrative from what's always been that we're the I don't know if you heard about the white seral mentality and then we're going to do to these people who don't know left from right and that's a that's not the best summary of of the colonization and then we've so we've created what's called a fairer framework with the conservation is H and what does that look like so Tuesday I could be
(29:01) with the staring group looking at what does de colonization look like what do Farah look like when we're in the field working in the field but also when in the zoos what does it mean to be fair which is linked to one of our our values which is inclusion I could by Tuesday and Wednesday I could be working with zookeepers about the PDR system or process that's so new about how can they have conversation how can you make it not too formal what what because they haven't got time you haven't got time
(29:28) we've got to feed the animals someone comes in if someone's sick that means less of us to do the job and helping them find creative way of having this conversation whereby it's not a chore um on Thursday I could be meeting with all the HL um managers across Thailand Philippines looking at their learning needs that they've identifying their team and and then on Friday I could be coaching a director of one of the international offices or someone local do you thrive on on variety a thriving writer I cannot stand bordedom I can't
(30:02) stand bordedom but sometimes yeah and also I I thrive on it because I think it also in increases your skills skills and and strength so there I've talked about the lovely ones and the exciting on there's some others that you are when there's a data you have to create the data of mandatory training I mean you can imagine how many man train we have to go from laders or using hand tools to to even firearms training because you know we have in case an Animal Escape you have to have trained firearm Pap and
(30:38) you have to get the stats you have to send to EXO to see you know the attendance rate that fine boring but it it has to be done you know and you have meeting with the health and safety manager who's saying when still won't pass uh you know we're no compliant we have to get more people varied so I can't I don't have a TP what do you enjoy most about OD being able to to watch things turn around we can actually make make help people make sense of things and make change happen but make change happen not because not you know
(31:15) when we talk of transaction and transformational that's that's what I always trying to help people to see the difference is that perhaps you've been manag people in a transactional way and that's why is do this and and that won't bring the change so I want to find some juice is helping people make sense of things for change getting the reason behind why something is failing or as suddenly say succeeding is I find that's what I find most useful working with people so whether it's coaching or or
(31:42) working with people on on on a chain program like the PDR we just done is about sitting with people helping them see them actually engage this new way of thinking and getting the emails back wow when did this actually make more sense I'm not as stressed as the end of year when I have to write this sell myself on the paper you know but now it's quarterly I just look at this in chunks you know and then bite you know we talk of agile and that's what I call about being juicy so being able to say yes you
(32:12) see you see this is what I trying to tell you that if you do it and break it down in bite sizes is easier to understand so so that's what excited me about OG looking at things when you talk about looking at things of complexity is about helping people see that um joining things together so like when when I'm working with managers and saying looking at um challenges um they face and or orever I use the law I think it's Steven KY that talks about the circle of influence and the circle of um of concern and that's one thing I think is
(32:45) also part of the OD lens to say look what is within your circle of concern that you can help and then which one Falls in that circle of influence and when we work with a circle of influence we do what we can do you know I'm working looking at that and looking at the that chunk of you know thing the kind digest is hard to understand hard to get on with and being able to to decide which ones that's within my um my control and and influence so those are the kind of things I find once you see that you know that shift in people's
(33:18) mind and light bul moments that that I think OD OD brings um skills brings a life rather than just training and development or learning what do you find most challenging in your work oh I think we talk about emergent we talk about planned we talk about the fact of giv having people giving space for people to make sense of things and you know we talk of um inaction on action we talk it's about the time that's not available for people to do that and so you end up not careful joining a transactional way
(33:53) of doing things and it's about organization the structures it's about um rolling out policies and stuff like that especially when you sit in HR I'm trying to say look let's let's hold on can we try this a bit can we can we see if this works or not that we haven't got a time so that that itself um is I find frustrating and knowing that most of these things so we say it's it's a marathon not a Sprint but most request is expected in as a Sprint when you look back at your career so far what would
(34:28) you say some of the biggest lessons you've learned I think the first thing is you trust the process I mean there's so many times you you know you're you're scared you things don't look as if they're working on paper um you go into coaching conversation or coaching relationship and just like this is I don't know where this go you know and then at the end when you reflect on it you like wasn't that bad or the feedback he get you know shows that he actually was more impact the so trust the process
(35:00) if you got the skills and you never be complete you know so um trust the process relationship building is vital so we talk about stakeholder stakeholder engagement but is vital especially for me when I came to an organization that don't UD it differently and having people who are so skilled technically I mean professors doctors the zookeepers knowledge is impeccable you know about their species and their specialist in Hedgehog and specialist in this so relationship building is is whether it's planned or emergent intervention you
(35:40) want to put in place is is vital is necessary to avoid OD jagon that itself can be a barrier so how do you how do you sound normal yeah especially when you're working with scientist and and research and you're using um Frameworks and and and models and then they ask question that you're like where's that question coming from but that's because of what you're reading or what they interpreted the word you thought nobody has ever picked up with picked up on Learning and Development you know you've invested in
(36:15) your own you've done your MSE what are you how are you investing in your own Learning and Development now what does that look like for you I I said I do a lot of I like reading and so doing research I belong to quite a number of community of practices and and networks and I have no problem investing in my both time and energy in my development um last year I joined a six weeks six weeks course at Stanford University in America it was 1: amm to 3:00 a.m.
(36:46) our time that's you are dedicated every time I turned up the other class like you made it again for the six for the six weeks was on organizational cult and and you know but it's an area interest me if I'm interested I don't I don't mind I don't care so it was that's one is an extreme B yeah um I'll go to bed 10 put my alarm on and and alarm on and I'm up and one to three did all the exercise exercises the only thing when you have coffee breaks I'll have to have water otherwise you're not go much to
(37:22) sleep are you so I can't mind you're having coffee at 2 a.m. in the morning yeah yeah so yeah and I have quite a number of mentors in the field I have no problem asking questions or approaching people for help how do you find a good Mentor people have worked with um I think the people which is why it's difficult to get a coach because you know you there's so many coaches out there so it's the same thing as Mentor I know that we've got we've got um organization that do mental and mentee
(37:51) um paring and stuff but it's also in trust B can I can your question is Trust of people have worked with people I look up to people have read up to I've read about I mean there's somebody of his name is just gone off my head now is in is one of I think he the chair of the odn OD America or something and I I don't know I ran into something he he wrote and I just linked him up on Linked In thinking oh this kind of people never return um you know a message and he did and I said hey I'm working on this then I was in
(38:28) the House of Commons and working on this project I ran into this but it wasn't complete your paper I found wasn't complete he emailed me his whole he's he a PD lecturer his whole lecture notes his whole you know the deck of his his his presentation day everything hundreds of pages so which I still have so yeah um a lot of more approachable than you think they'll be so a little bit of Courage a little bit assertiveness yeah find a really good Mentor you mentioned you really like reading is there a particular book that stands out
(39:04) that you've read um as part of your OD Journey that You' like to recommend to other people uh an OD Journey this this particular one is not from the old Journey or he is and that's you know that Seven Habits of Highly Effective People is old I think I read as a teenager but it's something that's still stuck in my mind because all the principles still relate sa from how how do you get win-win you know is a major thing I still use one of the managers um program discussion I had recently with some managers who talked
(39:37) about well but yeah when you get people um we all specialists in our areas and this is within one team specialist one is a marine bi marine biologist one is perhaps into some other form and they're all value driven they're all Um passion driven and so when it comes to strategy and things like that everybody wants a voice and that came to my head I'm like the word is win-win what does it mean to have a um a team charter that we work with in order to us to say this is how we're going to talk to each other and
(40:14) and we can agree to disagree so back to your question some of these books are were not originally written for ODI but you can get as as as as same uh um um results from them and then last question and we really want to ask this because we want to inspire the next generation of OD practitioners whether they're in-house or Consultants or whatever but what advice would you give who someone's who's just starting out of the career or is just taking their first steps to be clear about what you want out of OD
(40:44) because OD is one discipline if I might call it that that is different things to different people I've appli I've been interested in jobs I've seen advertis as UD but when you go into the job description is O design or even P HR Mas as OD so I think being clear about what you want out of OD if you want that kind of generalist look or if you want to really go deep into what do you know complexity and all those things which is particularly organizational development and also Mentor I think a mentor I I
(41:21) find mentorship helpful because you learn you learn from mentors but also finding networks networks is a a good place to learn from so whether it's an odn Network or cipd OD OD and D Network within the cipd but networks help because I I see a safe place for people to develop skills I've seen people come and say I'm not actually in od I just I've just heard about this network and join and so when you have the breakout sessions is a good place to test things out test ideas out listen to people ask
(41:57) ask questions I I don't necessarily think you need a qualification AUD to be able to do AUD well I think it's more like finding framework finding Frameworks finding people who done it before just trying things out well I just want to say a huge thank you bonju um it's been a really fascinating discussion what you described it in a really articulate and really accessible way as well and when I take my six-year-old round London Zoo I will never look at it in the same way again because now I know all the magic that
(42:28) happens behind the scenes as well so um a huge thank you for being really generous with all your insights and expertise um Danny what are you taking away from today's conversation I scrubble down lots of things as I was going but I think couple of things I'm taking back to the thing you said right at the beginning about organizations being human and not a machine and the importance of kind of seeing each other as humans as kind of a a fundamental principle of what we do I love what you said about variety being an enabler of
(42:51) skills and strength and really helping us do that the the importance of holding space for to make sure we're just not focused on being transactional and just holding the space to enable us to think more more clearly and trusting the process as well I think we've all been in that situation where we're just impatient to see see change and is not working and then you kind of reflect back a month later or six months later and go no there was change happening you just need to trust the process so so impatient aren't they um really yeah for
(43:20) me like ditto on the humanizing taking time to do that detaching ourselves from our titles and particularly in environment where you know these people have worked really hard to become a doctor it's it's part of their identity isn't it and it's it whether it comes stator so tending to that as well um I love what you said about Marathon versus Sprint the fact that it is a marathon but everything is presented you as a Sprint so it's a very seductive invitation saying please join the the hamster wheel of madness here and and a
(43:50) message really encouraging everyone to take away who's watching it today no matter where you are in your journey in od is just the importance of being bold and being courageous and asking people to be mentors the OD profession is is really generous and people do pay it forward because we've all been there asking for help ourselves to get us through so I think it's been a really timely reminder of the importance of that and I love what you're saying about networks as well so so thank you bon you
(44:17) you join our our wonderful and growing portfolio of brilliant guests depending on when you're watching this episode uh you're now the 39th expert from around the world we we've interviewed and you're a very very welcome addition to the collection um if this is if this is the first time you're watching this podcast we do put podcasts out almost every single week either in audio or on video so please do support the channel press like if you've enjoyed it please comment we'd love to hear your feedback
(44:43) and mostly if you can subscribe as well so then you kept up to date with all the latest videos and interviews and then you can get perspectives from people like bju creating meaningful and significant change in incredibly interesting organizations and context as well so so thank you everyone very much for joining us everyone and Boni just a a huge heartfelt thank you thank you for making time on a Friday afternoon thank you I've enjoyed this it's been really lovely thank you fabulous thank you [Music]
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