Hidden Forces that Drive Group Behaviour with Rachel Kelly, Tavistock Institute of Human Relations - OrgDev Episode 37

How does leadership, followership, authority, structures emerge in groups? Where do leaders, change agents, group and system practitioners, go to get the very best development on how to deepen their capacity to survive - and thrive in difficult systems. Where do they go to hone the craft of acting in the face of uncertainty, directly from their own experience. They go to the Tavistock Institute of Human Relations! Since 1947, the Tavi has been one of the worlds pioneering organisations exploring how group dynamics and relations form.  We've invited Rachel Kelly, principal  from the Tavistock Institute of Human Relations to share her insights and experiences

💼 About our Guest
Rachel Kelly
Principal, Organisation Development & Change & Group Relations Consultant, Alexander Technique practitioner

Connect with Rachel here:

  / rachel-kelly-71b7278 

Rachel Kelly is a Principal at the Tavistock Institute of Human Relations, where she specializes in Organisation Development, Change, and Group Relations Consultancy. With a deep commitment to fostering dialogue around innovative theories and methodologies, Rachel's work focuses on enhancing organisational and cultural life. She promotes life-long learning, professional development, and embodies these principles through her consultancy and practice.

In addition to her role at the Tavistock Institute, Rachel is an experienced Alexander Technique practitioner, helping individuals rediscover their psycho-physical balance through conscious awareness. She has led the Leicester conference's Yoga Event and continues to teach yoga at the Institute, integrating ancient wisdom into her practice.

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Transcript

(00:00) hi and welcome to the or Dev podcast so how does leadership followership Authority and structures emerging groups where do leaders change agents and group and assistance practitioners go to get the very best development on how to deepen their capacity to survive and thrive in difficult systems and where do they go to hone the craft of acting in the face of uncertainty well will many of them actually go to the Tavo Institute of human relations which for many people is the spiritual home of organization development since 1947 the
(00:31) Tavis it's affectionately known has been one of the world's pioneering organizations exploring how group dynamics and relations formed so we're absolutely delighted to have Rachel Kelly join us today she's principal and trustee from the Tavo and she official titled is organization development and change consultant and also a group relations consultant Rachel's been at the Tav stock for 20 years and holding a number of roles and is the veteran of facilitating 17 Leicester conferences was as we start to explore what Lester
(01:02) conferences as well you'll start to understand what amazing experience that she has and has facilitated other group relations conferences around the world in fact she just recently returned from delivering it in Shanghai is that right Rachel yeah well it wasn't a group relations conference but um it was about being a group relations consultant so we have a Tavo Institute China um and they have a program training people so I went for module two with my colleague and it was a great experience and we'll explore
(01:32) the cultural differences in a moment as well so the Leicester conference and Rachel give us a much better definition is is a 14-day experiential where a temporary organization is set up and all the members and staff co-create the culture and practice of the organization and all types of emotions emerge from fighting to learning from working to questioning getting stuck and unstuck crying laughing and everything in between and that's the official copy of the event official Rael has a very diverse background and she also practices the
(02:03) Alexander technique which is an indirect Zen practice for enhancing movement and being which we explore in more detail as we go through the session as well so we're all set up for a fascinating discussion as we explore the world of group relations so so welcome [Music] Rachel thanks very much it's great to be here so just to get started just tell us a bit about your role what you do what does what does being a group relations consultant mean that just one of my hats I do all sorts of things so being a
(02:33) group relations consultant means you go on staff at group relations conferences which as Garen was saying they're kind of a very discreet thing they can vary from two or even less to 14 days and the Leicester conference which is from the Tavo Institute is like the mothership it's the original it started in 1957 and it involves well the members of the conference they arri from all over the world usually between 25 and to 30 different nationalities and they get into groups so there are some set groups
(03:09) so there's a small group that uh a member would be in and then there's the large group which is all the members and then you consult as a consultant you would consult say to a small group or you might consult to the large group and you're really um exploring really hypothesizing about what you think might be happening in the group under under the surface so it's all about the unconscious impact well the impact of the unconscious on the group and the group's Behavior so it's a way of learning it's kind of
(03:41) experiential so it's very viseral you kind of feel it that uh and you feel all sorts of things in fact and you're working out learning about how people behave in groups basically So It ultimately it's about teamwork it's about leadership it's about followership Authority taking up your own personal Authority in fact which again is a kind of embodied visceral thing you can kind of feel it when you when you're taking up your Authority you feel it yeah so it's endlessly fascinating uh and I love
(04:18) it so that's one part of your role what do the other bits of your your role look like that's Monday yeah so there's all sorts of things so basically recently so uh yesterday today we just started a new Co cohort of our reading seminars so Manny Sher who's pretty famous in the field and David Lawler also famous in the field wrote three books about system psychodynamics so we've doing these seminars and we're just studying starting on book three yesterday with a new cohort so book three is our
(04:52) interviews with famous OD people in the field like beon uh Bridger Isabel Ming's live I mean there's I think there's 26 different interviews so we just started it yesterday so I was working with Manny on that one I'm also helping to organize something called Bel girati it's a a meeting held every three years for group relations practitioners so if you've been on staff at a group relations conference then you come and meet all your peers and colleagues it's actually in Portugal and have a great time over
(05:29) three uh 3 days so there's like presentations and um lectures keynote lectures but also there's a bit of the experiential as well because we can't not do our experiences so uh and then we're also I think next week we're expecting some students from China so we're going to give them a little taser of group relations and we've also got um art exhibitions in our office which kind of Ro rotate and change so they'll have a tour of the-art exhibition and then I'm going to be the associate director
(06:03) at the Leicester conference in August so I've been thinking about that with the rest of the directorate I also um directing the there's like a subgroup within the conference of more advanced people you could call them the deepening practice tra practice training group so I've been thinking about them um and how it's going to be uh staff deployment and all that and then again in the Leicester conference is something called the bod which is the bear or Dare event so there's uh the visual theme of the
(06:39) brochure is a polar bear so that's where we've got that from so I've been thinking about its structure and how to introduce it so the Bode is about co-creating using Innovative holistic practices so not your normal talking to explore leadership in different ways so this links to the Alexander technique in fact so it's less about talking more about moving the embodiment of leadership um so this Bode thing is going to be about finding your inner bear bearing yourself and your vulnerabilities daring take to take
(07:11) risks and I'm very fond of uh Pooh bear so I'll be talking about the da of Pooh as well it sounds fascinating There's real Variety in the role isn't there yeah absolutely yeah that's what I like about it yes completely there's loads of different stuff you never know what's going to be coming up and there's something about being challenge so it's quite it's not easy work so it can be anxiety provoking so one of my main things over the years has been about managing my anxiety and being able to
(07:42) contain other people's anxiety so that's like an ongoing thing and group relations and the Alexander Tech technique help with that so the Alexander technique is used in um drama schools music schools because it's really about how you take up a role I mean there's the kind of practical thing where you know people when they're going on stage they get stage fright and you know it's kind of feels terrible so Alexander technique helps with that it kind of it's difficult to explain really
(08:14) but it's a it's about not getting stuck in your habits basically so it's about releasing habits habits of tension but it's not just a physical thing it's a psychophysical thing so you're doing it with your mind as it was for people who don't know the Tavo Institute tell us can you just tell us a bit more about it how does it differ to to other organizations out there and other people in the same field uh the Tavo Institute it's quite small but it's got a very large reach so it's uh very
(08:45) International so our work can be in all sorts of places we do basically research consultancy evaluation and professional development so we have a variety of professional development programs and and we have the L to conference and then we'll we'll go and do consultancy in various all kinds of different organ organizations recently over the last five years we've brought in an arts and organization strand so that's about bringing creativity into your work um and I've benefited for that from this
(09:19) really because while I was on on the fac faculty of um program so a PD program we've got the deepening creative practice in organizations program and out of that I we'd been thinking about moving home offices for ages and uh we haven't done anything about it but I kind of got it going and then when we'd found the place I designed the interior which I never would have thought I would be able to do but I kind of went ahead and did it and it's you know it's really nice it's a lovely interior we uh help
(09:54) people help organizations to work more efficiently to think about and understand why they're doing what they're doing and you know giving them the space if they want to if they want to change in the same way we also to a certain extent apply that to ourselves so we're always kind of looking at what we're doing why we're doing it creating uh spaces to think and reflect and in you know this hectic world you know lots of organizations don't don't do that and to their detriment and we can also you
(10:27) know talk about our feelings as well that's much more uh open I suppose than the average organization in that sense I just question for you so you said there that you you're able to take risks have a stock yeah a lot we talked to a lot of organizations who who want their teams and their people to take risks but their people just don't or they haven't created the conditions for it what is it about the conditions you're working in that make it comfortable and safe to take a risk I think you're allowed to
(10:51) make mistakes I think that's a big thing so it's not the end of the world you're you're allowed to learn from the mistakes rather than go into Shame about them I suppose that's like a big thing I think the culture to a great extent is created by the uh CEO so that's eliat RAM and she's a very skilled uh expert group relations practitioner you know she's known throughout the world for it so she's she's running the organization not completely because that would be impractical but you know there are
(11:26) there's these Echoes and resonances around how how group relations Works in a particular in a the laboratory of the conference and then the organization is kind of kind of uh absorbed into the organization somehow those kind of ideas and uh ways of doing things and being and what has been your journey into the profession what were sort the steps that led you to be associate director of conferences and what were even your first experience of of being in some of these conferences so I kind of fell into it really I started started my career
(12:01) well I was nine years in an art book publisher so I was there for quite a long time then I uh worked for forensic psychiatrist and then a um uh I worked at the school of Oriental and African studies at in the near and Middle East department and then I worked for a neurobiologist at UCL I kind of felt like you know these rule kind of building up to yeah I was temping and um at The Institute and they offered me a job so I took it even though I'd been offered other jobs and I hadn't taken them and it made no sense
(12:40) for me to take this one so it was a bit odd episode but anyway I did and I started working for Manny share as his PA and that was administrating the Leicester conference so I went to the Leicester conference as the administrator I had no idea about anything about group relations um it was quite shocking yeah I didn't know what was going on people were talking in a particular way I was kind of kind of understood it but I didn't understand it so I was kind of trying to work it out but I could tell there was something in it it felt like
(13:14) it was real it was about how organizations are I think that was it that kind of kept me interested and kind of uh otherwise i' probably wouldn't have because it was kind of difficult so I don't think these conferences are for everybody it's for those people who like you know to kind of uh explore and experiment and take risks I guess yeah so then I just carried on and it kind of got easier as I was doing it and then I took on oh yeah I remember um walking with Elliot to going get some lunch and
(13:46) she said she was going to take over the yoga event the leadership of the yoga event in the Leicester conference and I thought I can do a better job than you I kind of uh have done you know I'm doing the Alexander technique and I didn't say that I said uh you know I can do the uh I can perhaps do that instead of you and she said okay yeah kind of thing I think she was quite glad but then I thought oh no what have I said so that was quite scary I don't know what's gonna happen so but yeah uh I did it and uh I kind of
(14:18) made it my own through using the Alexander technique so that was a an experience in itself and it's kind of the yoga event became the embodying role event now it's the bir mood so it kind of has different incarnations in the in the conference itself did you start with the Alexander technique when I was working for the UCL professor of neurobiology I had a back problem had a slip disc and he got me an operation and then I remember talking to the finance guy and he said oh uh he'd had two slip this and he was doing the Alexander
(14:55) technique so I didn't kind of pay much attention to it but then somehow how it kind of stuck somehow so then I started having lessons and then when I came to the Institute uh the first guy I was working for he semi-retired so I started training at that point so I've been learning the Alexander technique and the group relations kind of simultaneously so they're kind of within me I can't really separate them out in some ways the group conference feels like it's a really big part of your what's the
(15:24) premise behind it like how do you get people to engage in the process like what what's the set up to get people engaged for you like you know anything between like three and 14 days yeah well basically people get stuck they're not sure what's going on um they're wanting to find out what's going on in their team so part of the conference is about application so working out from your learning so far how you might work with stuff that's actually happening to you back in your uh office it's very
(15:59) practical in a lot of ways um so it can although it's not a kind of thing you know I can't say to you this is what you should do we would never say that you're given uh just ideas to think about so people basically they're working it out for themselves you could say that they're empowering themselves I suppose to be able to uh work in their own way with what's going on for them so it's kind of fits everything because ultimately you're kind of working it out for yourself that's I suppose that's the
(16:30) beauty of it in some ways so it's not a you know a pat thing this is what you should do to resolve or solve this you're kind of uh the members each have their own Journey basically so they each find something uh or loads of things usually from the conference which they can use in their um in their work and like the uh the ripples from the conference the resonances kind of stay with with you like um for years basically they carry on kind of BU up as aha moments kind I think oh and when you bring like 24 25 people to random people
(17:07) together and you 50 to 60 sorry 50 to 60 more so when you bring 50 to 60 people together what kind of patterns do you often see emerging because these are people that aren't haven't met before they they're now having to sort of share a space together you say sort of leadership and followership and structure emerges like what kind of patterns do you often see and does it sort of follow things often emerge at similar times throughout the process it's not so easy to see patterns like that there are certain ways in group uh
(17:37) in which groups behave so they um beond called it group isness um so rather than getting on with their task the group will start doing something else so basically mainly because of anxiety um and the anxiety might be because well they've just met so that's very anxiety provoking any kind of transition stage is anxiety provoking or there's lots of different nationalities so people are worried about difference or maybe there's a Russian a Chinese and an American in the group they're in so you have these
(18:19) superpowers is anxiety provoking so then the group gets distracted and starts doing doing other things there's various things that Beyond uh and others have um described as group isness so a classic one might be fight or fight or flight proba you heard of that one yeah so people argue everyone's looking at the two that are arguing so they're just being entertained in in effect if you like or someone gets up and does something with the blinds or something they kind of flying off they're trying to avoid what's going on
(18:55) that kind of stuff and so the the inter is it the right like is it like an intervention or just a sort of a noticing by it's a yeah we call it a hypothesis so we're saying maybe this is going on we don't actually know what's going on in the unconscious definitively but uh from my experience this is what I think might be happening so you're you're bringing it to the group and then they can work with it or not as they choose like person a reaches for the Blind and it could be a number of things like to sort of exert some
(19:26) control or to just distract or something like that so they're kind of learning about how they turn up in a group setting are they and and like what what might be some of the Insight they receive from that um though I would never as a consultant I would never speak to an individual about the individual I would only ever talk about what's happening in the group so the individual is obviously in the group and the individual is trying to work out how to be in the group uh without losing their individuality and without
(19:59) being uh rejected by the group so they're always in a state of tension um I'm not sure uh uh I can really give apart from in the moment I can't really say what I would say if you see what I mean because it all all depends on the context than what else is going on so it's a bit that's a bit tricky I can't really say exactly what I would say but I guess it's it's a fascinating thing that you're picking out there isn't it which is all of the things that are going on for an individual when they're
(20:28) trying to find their place isn't it that I love that blend you're talking about the balance between being an individual but being a member of the group for example all these things that are going on individually and collectively in the moment um that are people finding so does that mean that people have sort of quite big breakthrough moments in there or sort of quite provocative moments yeah I think so yeah definitely breakthrough and provocative so it can be a bit of a roller coaster uh the experience I remember particularly at
(20:57) the beginning it was really like a roller poster system psychodynamics I suppose is the Paradigm which kind of the umbrella where group relations group dynamics and stuff kind of falls into so it's like a huge field and it's multidisiplinary and transdisciplinary so you know you can you can always bring your whole self as well which about being authentic at work so less hiding less less masking although I'm not saying that I don't mask obviously everybody does but it's freeing it's freeing that's what it is certainly I
(21:32) had this aha moment which I couldn't kind of believe so like about quite early on maybe my third conference one of the other staff gave me a poem to type out and as I was typing I was thinking oh this poem is about me uh this is my you know what I've been experiencing but you know it can't be about me because how can he be in inside my head how is he how does he know what's going on in my head and then I realized that actually you know he was kind of working with the unconscious of the groups and different parts of the
(22:06) system mirror other parts um so my feelings which I thought were just my feelings and experiences actually were in other people as well and it was really uh P I had a really powerful experience of like not being alone it was really I'm affected by it now actually yeah that's the real power of experiential work though isn't it like you can you can have it in a training room but actually to I us to say use the word visceral didn't you like you can it's almost like you get the recall afterwards you can still feel it
(22:38) sometimes can't you wow fascinating and and what do you enjoy most about your role you've got huge Variety in it what kind of things do you enjoy the most I like the fact that it's well I like the variety so you know understanding more about different organizations so when we're doing projects working with my colleagues so we usually work in pairs if we're going into consultancy so you're always with someone else who you can kind of talk to about what's going on which I think is really valuable I'm
(23:07) encouraged to study and to write do a lot of travel although there is the ecological side of that now which we're kind of addressing at the moment so our work basically is much more effective in person but so we're developing the online online presence as I was talking about so with these courses so I've really enjoyed even though I'm really ultimately about the inperson I I kind of enjoy doing the online stuff so I really like doing that there's something about the Poetry in words that's you
(23:39) know we use metaphor and so it's kind of really rich the way uh well I'm not sure about me but other people who are talking about the ideas it's kind of always really fascinating and Rich um and as I was saying the creativity I'm encouraged to be creative in it's like there's all if I I can bring my whole self to work so you know when I was you know the beginning near the beginning when you know uh I was just learning the Alexander technique uh I was being encouraged then to bring that but I
(24:15) wasn't able to kind of um articulate it at that point but as you can tell I'm not necessarily that good at articulating it now because it's a bit kind of it's a bit like the way if you like so I don't know if you know the D to the tow which is like a a path to uh a universal way of being like an indirect path but you can't really talk about it directly it's always indirect the Alexander technique is is like that so I'm really now I'm really getting into the uh the Dow and Leadership and
(24:48) wanting to um basically working out what kind of qualities that I need to to be more Dow if you like um finding my inner poo that's how I describe it poo with PO with an H on the it sounds like it's a real Learning Journey being a consultant isn't it it doesn't sound as if like you're you're projecting yourself into the role of expert it's how how does that work that kind of Learning Journey that you're on I suppose even in these group relations conferences the staff are there to
(25:23) provide learning opportunities for the members that's the main thing however it just so happens that actually you're learning as being a staff member at the same time so you're and if you think of yourself as the expert as the one that knows that could be problematic in that you're not in a learning mode and it's partly about modeling the learning mode for the members so that they can see you doing that you don't have to know everything and the this the idea of hypothesizing you're not saying this is
(25:57) how it is you're saying perhaps perhaps something is going on like this which I yeah I like that and I am always well not always I guess but I would like to be always in a learning mode really well it's about curiosity developing your curiosity I think when you think about the work you do what's what do you find most challenging well I mentioned before about the anxiety that is probably the most challenging thing in the group setting does that do people sort project their emotions onto you is that there's
(26:27) a constant feeling of that yeah so there's all sorts of projections so you're the uh authority figure as it were in the uh in the group and they look to you to lead it but of course you don't lead it so then they get really annoyed uh because you're not leading it you're Consulting to it um it can be a bit confusing it's about staying in your role being clear about your role as far as possible although you know you're developing the world the more you do it you know you have different ideas about
(26:56) it as you go along again that's something that's the kind of interesting part of it because it doesn't kind of you never kind of know it there's always more stuff to kind of find out that's why I like a lot it challenging wise I suppose I keep on testing myself really so kind of in the taking risks doing things that I I don't know that I'm going to be able to do I think that's the kind of challenging thing so experimenting and uh saying I'll do that this is what I keep doing I'll say I'm
(27:28) going to do do something and then then I have to do it leads to an interesting work life doesn't it from your perspective what are some of the biggest lessons you've learned along the way in this journey I suppose I've really mentioned them already so taking risks to to realize your potential that I'm not alone um with my feelings I'm not just an individual having my feelings that these we're all we're all in groups even if we're in a group in our heads we're in lots of different groups and
(27:59) our feelings are I mean they are our own but they're also other people's too I suppose uh one big thing is people pushing their anxiety onto me so projecting their anxiety onto me this was at very much at the beginning so that's a kind of classic not having to accept projections they don't have to accept them that's a good one and very hard fought lessons they are as well because it's almost like we they also got know do that sort of self as instrument isn't it and it's understanding your part of it and and
(28:31) when you're in a group setting it's that that power because the invitation to become the lead or to be is so seductive and strong isn't it they they come from a system that that's where that's how things are that kind of learned helplessness isn't it yeah how do you notice it in the moment do do you have supervision as well so in the conference we have like staff meetings so we have lots of staff meetings so they go on to well I have been in ones that went on to like one in the morning or something
(28:59) they don't do that anymore let's say 11:30 or something like that so you're you're meeting in the Stu so that's like the way you know talking about what's going on talking not so much about the members but about the themes what's going on how we're finding it that kind of stuff so it's like a debrief that happens at the end of the day yeah and in the middle bit bits in the middle and and and sometimes you know for a few minutes after particular events so always kind to checking in and what you talked about
(29:29) taking some of your learning online so using that platform to try test out online learning for teamwork what have you learned along the way so far in kind of doing that because it's quite a different way of working and and interacting yeah so it's quite worried you know how are we going to translate some of our work so it's easy to understand by the average person so there was that making it into something that people would be interested in doing I think we've managed to do that but there is this without the
(30:00) experiential aspect to it you know it's a little it's you know it's not the same it's they're they're doing a it is just like a course basically although they're encouraged to journal to think about what's happening compare thinking about the course the ideas in the course and then thinking about their work so they're encouraged to kind of yeah apply what they're learning and also there's like social learning so they've got their Co Learners so lots of them have
(30:30) been writing stuff underneath each of the steps so it's kind of broken down into small chunks of steps journaling is such a powerful tool isn't it we're always trying to get um people that we work with to journal what is the power of journaling from your perspective what does it do the main thing I guess it's giving you a chance to reflect so it's like a space for yourself to think about what's going on and just giving yourself that space means all sorts of other things come out and you make connections
(31:01) between different things uh which you may not have done um otherwise without without the journal it's like a you know a precious space to write or record and it's kind of honoring yourself I think when people Journal I think that's the important thing as well you don't have to write very much you can write as little or as much as you like I think yeah it shouldn't be a chore it you know it should be something that's kind of really uh makes more of what you're learning can kind of really um I think
(31:33) have a profound effect on what you're on what you're learning so is is there a resource that you've been inspired by or that's or a book that you've particularly enjoyed it could be a podcast that you know something that you've you've actually read in your journey or recently just thinking yeah that's that's really developed my thinking I suppose the da of Pooh there's something called a widening field that's written by an Alexander teacher and a dancer which is a it's
(32:04) really um you can just dip into it it's really nice I think it anyway a widening field is the name of the book it's like Journeys into the imagination I really like that book that's great got pictures and then it's got uh poems and writs kind of all sorts of different things it's really great I'm really enjoying the third book by Manny and David that I was talking about about system psychodynamics so interview well all three books I think are really good but the third one like the interviews with
(32:33) the people you kind of get to know the people from the past it's great you know where where they were coming from when they were kind of working it out right and and Manny's great because was it Manny that I met at the book launch I met you and I got free advice we had a particular senior manager we were working with and I was stuck and so I talked to him and he said maybe you should think about the fact that he's splitting and I was like oh yeah now I see it thank you Manny brings Manny's great he brings um
(33:03) so he's in the hospital he's in having dialysis and he actually brought our kind of has kind of brought this research group together in the hospital with other people about home dialysis so he's kind of literally doing his work while he's doing that the Tav and obviously Echo you know when I went in there it didn't look how I thought it would do it does look like little zones that you can do different things and it's but it must be quite an inspiring place because there's there's a lot of
(33:30) very insightful people around there you must constantly bump the conversations in the corridors must be absolutely fascinating them wasn't they yeah yeah well I suppose I don't really think about it but it's true yes although you know in in in many ways it's very ordinary as well so it's not like a kind of Ivory Tower everyone's kind of super in Al a lot of them are super intellectual actually I can't deny it but you can just have cup te and a gossip every once in and then just one more question to
(34:02) wrap us up so if somebody was thinking of kind of entering this space starting to work in this kind of the field of group relations or the work that you do what advice would you give them I'd say go for it I mean it's endlessly fascinating so you know human behavior and group Behavior it's like uh you know you never get tired of it and it also it has meaning in it in that you know you're helping people to to work out how they can make their lives better so it's yeah it's very satisfying you know that
(34:36) you're helping people avoiding you know pain and heartache that you you know when you're at work and you know it's really difficult it's really horrible isn't it you know affects your whole life so you know being able to help people to get out of that situation or giving the the space to get out of it and if people are to taking their first steps into group relation like where is a good place is it to to get like an accredited some kind of certification or like how do people get those initial
(35:04) bits of experience or is it just to just immerse yourself in the field and real read be Wilford beon and and whoever else so I would recommend experiencing it first then reading about it and then when you're reading you think ah yeah that's what was happening then kind of thing they're getting so there's group relations conferences around the world so there's quite a few to choose from and then also the best well obviously I'm going to say it is the best one because it's you know the longest the
(35:32) deepest immersion you learn the most H yeah I recommend coming to the Leicester conference brilant I think Danny we're gonna have to check our training budget here to see if we can put our ourselves both on it well you know you know if you really want to come we you know there's a burer you get early not now though it's too late for this year but you know there's early birds and uh discounts and beries so yeah we like if somebody really wants to come we like to be able to help them to come if if at all all
(35:58) possible well thank you so much Rachel it's been a really really fascinating conversation you've really opened our eyes to a whole range of different areas and really given a lot of people of areas to focus on and to read more into and just the the field of group relation sounds absolutely fascinating um three things that I'm taking away from the conversation today obviously just the importance of projection it's it's it's such a thing and noticing when it's happening and and how it impacts you as
(36:22) well and separating what's people stuff and and your own personal things as well um you introduced the idea of grouping by beond which I thought was a fascinating concept you know what is it that people do and being aware of it oh yeah so the thing you were talking about in terms of when you're feeling something individually it's very likely that the group are also feeling the same thing as well so actually that's potentially data that people need to be aware of too Danny how about you what your what you taking away I was going to
(36:48) reflect some of that but I think for me the importance of having a hypothesis and holding it very lightly and never being enforcing your your views and certainty on others I love what you said about the staff being there to provide learning opportunities for participants I think if we have that as our our frame then we're not going to go far wrong and then just the very last Almost the last thing you said about experience first then read and that's probably me because I need to I'm I'm I'm inclined to do it
(37:09) the other way around to read and then then experience so that's kind of my own that's my own stuff well thanks very much I had a really great time I really enjoyed it I wasn't expecting to you know because it's a podcast oops but yeah kind of enjoyed it wonderful and if everybody wants to connect you based on today's conversation or or follow your work what's the best way for people to reach out to you or even the Tav stock as well uh I can send you a website and give my email address I'm happy for people to uh
(37:36) brought me an email depends what they want really but I'm happy to have a chat conversations with people about whatever you know interests and so that's that's the main thing well I I think our audience be really interested to learn it and we'll also what we'll do is We'll add it in the show notes like your LinkedIn profile and we'll put links to the Tav stock and the Leicester conference as well because I think there's lots of fascinating and we may even sprinkle a few of your book
(37:58) references in there and two I I know that and I definitely going to read them too yeah I've got another one body learning by um this great he's American but he there stuff about leadership at the back of it it's about the Alexander technique body learning by what's his name we love a good book reference add it to my pile Michael Gelb well well thank you so much Rachel really appreciate your time thanks for seeing us as soon as you've come back from China so we're really appreciative of
(38:26) your time and thanks for sharing little bit of the mystery about what happens at the Tav stck and the big impact that it makes as well so so thank you so much thank you thanks so much thank you [Music]