Leading in Complexity with Dr Graham Curtis - OrgDev Episode 31

What is great leadership built on? Our guest Dr Graham Curtis believes that great leadership is founded on developing our flexibility in response to the situations we find ourselves in and  growing our curiosity, and our capability to reflect. Graham’s focus is on supporting people and organisations to be the best they can possibly be through maximising their potential.
 
He has designed and led the delivery of global leadership and management development programmes in the UK, Nigeria, Kenya and Columbia aimed at supporting and challenging participants to reflect on their practice and their relationships with their teams.

💼 About our Guest
Dr. Graham Curtis Chartered FCIPD MSc.
  / dr-graham-curtis-6b931911 

Connect with Dr. graham here: 
graham-curtis@virginmedia.com

Dr Graham Curtis is an accomplished complexity and relational consultant. A leader in his field. Born and raised in Sunderland, he initially entered the workforce after leaving school. He later decided to further his education and completed his A levels.

Graham began his professional career as an Immigration Officer at Heathrow Airport, eventually becoming a Senior Manager in the Immigration Department of the Home Office. He pursued an MSc in People and Organisational Development at Roffey Park, which led to his role as Head of Organisational Development at the UK Border Agency.

He earned a Doctorate of Management from the University of Hertfordshire in 2018. In 2020, Graham joined Roffey Park Institute as an associate, contributing to the MSc programme, and later became the MSc Programme Director and Director of Roffey Park Academy.

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Transcript

Transcript:
(00:00) hi and welcome to the org Dev podcast so what is great leadership built on our guest Dr Graham Curtis believes that great leadership is founded on developing our flexibility in response to the situations we find ourselves in and growing our curiosity and our capability to reflect Graham's focus is on supporting people and organizations to be the best that they could possibly be through maximizing their potential so starting out from his Beginnings in sundland grahe has over 25 years of experience working in the UK and
(00:31) internationally most recently is director of Learning and Development at Ry Park Institute his early career in operational and Leadership Management in the UK border Force helped shape his perspective on the organizations and he went on to hold numerous senior roles including leading organization development and human resource functions as well in fascinating organizations he's designed and led and delivered Global leadership and management development programs in the UK Nigeria Kenya and even Colombia aimed at
(00:59) supporting and challenging participants to reflect on their practice and their relationships with their teams he's also LED Global transformation programs and he completed his doctor Management program at the University of hartf which was a fascinating place to do it working alongside leading thinkers like Ralph Stacy which we're fascinated about he's also completed his msse in people and organizational development and is a chartered um fellow of the cipd that's a lot of qualifications gr thank you well thank
(01:27) you so much for joining us gr we're really pleased to have you on on the podcast car today that's quite an introduction when you hear someone read all of that out you think wow yeah I really am old yes we we've actually that's significantly edited day isn't it it is yeah that that was the one minute synopsis we could have gone on for about five so we really want to explore that today no wor brilliant welcome gra lovely to have you on so you describe yourself as a collaborative and relational consultant so just tell us a
(01:55) bit more about that what what is the work that you do I'm still working that out to be honest Dan and I hope to be working that out for the rest of my life what what I think I mean is I think it's it's related to leadership as well I think we often think very individualistic about our work indiv individualistically and I think a lot of the processes in organizations lead us down that path you know when we're when we're having our performance managed in any Performance Management framework
(02:21) it's a very individual assessment and yet actually none of us can get anything done without other people helping us or supporting us or working with us or sometimes competing with us and fighting with us because that's also part of organizational life but if nothing happens unless there are other people so actually relationships and and relatedness is key and exploring those relationships and I think uh that means we have to collaborate together we have to work together to get stuff done so collaborative and relationships are the
(02:51) key to getting stuff done in organizations and often we we find ourselves in situations when our relationships are not supporting us uh in in getting what we need to get done done and it's really difficult sometimes to find ways to talk about that which was kind of at the heart of my thesis at at harer but I consider my role to be supporting people to find ways to talk about the things they can't talk about or even that they're aware that they can't talk about because sometimes it's outside of our awareness and we don't
(03:22) know what's going on but we know that person irritates us or I'm constantly fighting with that person or that person never pays any attention to what I see all of those things that go on in our heads in meetings while we're smiling and chatting uh and we never see in the meeting we'll see it in the gossip or in the uh you know in in the tea room or something um uh and finding ways to uh successfully talk about those things in our relationships in those conversations in leadership teams or in other teams uh
(03:53) to you find the language to safely talk about this so that no one risks getting excluded or no one risks kind of exploding or finding ways to discuss that that's kind of what I think I'm best at okay and how would you say the way that you were differs to maybe some other traditional Consultants oh that's a good question because I you know I only know how I really work I don't necessarily know how others work I know how I how I think about what I do I think perhaps differs I wrote a chapter uh fairly recently A couple of years ago
(04:24) for a book on uh facilitation and I think one how I think about facilitation is is that we're a temporary participant in a group so I think one of the things a lot of the books about facilitation tend to think of it as a facility acting upon a group like they're outside of it and they are doing uh tips and tricks and tools and as if that group is a thing over there that they can meddle with and get to be better like a car or something or you know or even if you want to use a natural metaphor like sprinkling some fertilizer on the
(04:57) flowers or something you know it's it's over there it's whereas I think I fundamentally think when we are engaging with the group we become part of the Dynamics of that group however temporarily and as we work with a group we are forming that group and that group is forming us at the same time is a kind of paradoxical relationship there both individual and social at the same time so we can't escape the fact that we're having an impact on a group and we can't escape the fact that that group's having
(05:25) an impact on us and and noticing that reflexively engaging with not the s that that forming process and being formed by and being able to talk about it comfortably and confidently is is the work and I think sometimes we get wrapped up in and the I mean there are any number and I know you've had Steve hear some on your podcast recently hav you so there's any number and Steve would have I'm sure talked about any number of people offering the tool or the trick or the program or the method that successfully gets team works
(06:00) together and I Steve and I both think in common I think that that's just not possible because it's so contextual uh so I'm not into tips tricks models tools or methods necessarily although they can be helpful to to abstract us from the problem conversation so that we have feel more comfortable to talk about it but essentially it's what's going on in the room at that time with those people that most important we we were really hoping you to give us five simple steps to organization going have to change the of
(06:30) the you know what you know what gar I might make a lot more money if I wrote that book but I'm sly it's not in me those are the books to sell right because they people are desperate for a as he calls a sell a bullet people want an answer that works in every context and I'm sadly I just don't think there is one no I think that's really it really resonates for me the idea that the minute we're having a conversation with somebody in the system in the in the client organization we're doing
(06:55) something whether we mean to or not we're we're kind of changing the system so being conscious that really matters and what sort of organizations and sectors do you work in is it is it really varied anywhere that's interesting really I think one of the things that's interesting is there's a kind of dual argument about whether you can work across sectors or whether you need need to have sector experience I think in leadership terms I think you really need to know the context you're in and you really need to know what goes
(07:20) on at the front line of whatever organization you're leading I think is a consultant you do need to spend some time finding out about that stuff so doing some due diligence making sure that you've had the conversations ahead of time about how things work what gets done being able is it kind of taking a actually in organization development terms I think it's it's not a common practice but I think taking a kind of ethnographic or anthropological approach to our work so when we're entering into
(07:46) an organization we're paying attention to the way people talk to each other what are the symbols what are the what's on the walls what what color is everything how is the office arranged what does that tell us about how people work here so that can start to gather that information and use it and and think about it and introduce it into our conversations and we're doing our work so for me uh sector is not that important I do have a kind of and most of my life I've either worked in public service or I've worked in the third
(08:15) sector so I do like to work with organizations that have a real purpose in the world to make the world a better place I think as an AUD practitioner I take the values of organizational development really seriously so you know about democratizing about improving the workplace for people who work there because we spend an awful lot of time at work don't we you know probably more than anywhere else in our lives we spend time at work with the people we work with and to make that a a fun healthy place to be I think is probably one of
(08:47) the most important what the most important work we can do and and just you said something at the beginning um I just really want to just ask a question about actuallyy which is you talked about organizations being being healthy but you said you know a a lot of the workers around making sure that teams or leadership teams or whatever are able to have the conversations and not taking place in the the t- room or in the corridor because often that is the challenge isn't it because there's something around the human condition
(09:14) that makes us want to have a conversation that may uh aesthetically look like a good conversation but then we really want to make sense of it with our peer group or our tribe afterwards what is it about the human condition that really gets in the way there because often those conver pathologize the problem don't they they do and actually I don't want to dismiss gossip either because I think gossip is a really important part of organization say uh Nobert Elias write writes quite a lot about this and he recognizes
(09:43) actually the importance of how building relationships through gossip the part gossip plays in organization shouldn't be dismissed and it'll always happen however and you're right I think being able to find ways to talk authentically with each other to really share how we're feeling in in the spaces where we really need to with the people we were is really key I think there's two things that hold us back from that and there's two things that there's a number I've just introduced a number a generalized
(10:12) number good Lord there are two things that human beings generally really uh fear uh and it's exclusion uh the the idea of not belonging to another group you know there's something Primal about that fear of of exclusion and and actually if we're not really with other people our on sense of who we are degrades because we are being formed by other people all the time uh so exclusions one and uncertainty is another so not knowing what's going to happen next terrifies the life out of us and we spend most of our lives in
(10:43) organizations avoiding that by making plans and budgets and strategies and one of the best examples I remember Ralph CI talked about this when we were when I was doing my doctorate and he he was talking about the banking crisis in 2007 2008 and he said I bet you in the 10-year plans that all of those Banks had none them none of them foresaw a worldwide collapse in banking uh and I think he's absolutely right you know what I mean all of their plans would have had growth plans you know there would have been exponential growth over
(11:15) the 10 years and that's just not the way the world is but but if we give ourselves these plans and these strategies it gives us that sense of security it also gives us intentions well so they're important I'm not saying we shouldn't do those things as we have to and they give us a sense of intention and Direction and they might also give us a false sense of security uh so we really need to be paying attention to what's going on in the context of working in and the dangers we might be floting towards by the actions we're
(11:44) taking so I think the banking crisis is a great example where somebody somewhere decided it' be a great idea to package up all of their toxic debt and make it sellable and they would have gone you know I'm imagining they'd have gone to their board or their management team and gone I've got this great idea we can take all of this stuff that's worthless and a risk we can package it up put a nice ball on the top and we can sell it to another bank as a as a salable item and somebody in the board went that's a
(12:13) fantastic idea we can get a real competitive Advantage here let's do it at that point somebody with a sense of ethics and morality or some sense of thinking about what this where this might take us in the future would have said yeah but what have other people do that and sell it to us and what if they what if we sell it to somebody else we get into a Murry go round of having to sell each other worthless stuff that we all know is worthless but the minute anyone stops selling it or tells anybody that's worthless it all collapses and we
(12:43) end up in a really bad place it could have been foreen but because we those competitive uh strategies mean that we're trying to get one over our competitors we never talk to each other about what might end up in the future and I think those are the kind of conversations where we can find those more where we're maybe floting down a route that's not great for us we can we can spot them and try and avoid them interestingly at the beginning anywhere or you know during that crisis Lloyd's Bank was the only conservative bank that
(13:12) took the cous approach to debt and and they survived that because they didn't have exposure so somebody there was making cautious decisions about what was going on and really interestingly even they didn't Escape did they because they were they were kind of el elbowed into buying Halifax and and they ended end up in a financial crisis situation because of everything else that was going on around it's it's fascinating because I I was working and banking in 2008 and we were working with a um a very well-known
(13:40) World Bank and I do I do remember we were working with a really challenging team and we were just beginning the work and I remember the the senior manager getting um really congratulated because he just sold an enormous amount of debt to Bear Sterns and obviously be Sterns was one of the first ones to go but it just shows those internal mechanics the individualistic approach to organization how it happens but it's it's what goes on within our organizations that can actually you know create the problem
(14:04) isn't it so it's shortterm success rather than longterm health that that tends to work in the in the kind of p buer a French philosopher if I might bring a little bit of idea of theory and he has this idea of habitus and it's what we live it's what we're born into uh he he talks about it's shaping us he he refers to it he uses a metaphor of the tattooing process of us becoming Who We Are through our experience of relationships within a habitus which is I guess what what some of us might call
(14:36) a system I wouldn't really but you know within a a set pattern of relationships that is reiterating we get shaped through it uh and I think that goes on in the world of work do you know what I mean so we it's really hard to see beyond it because it's part of who we are so that guy getting congratulated by shelling Stu to be STS he absolutely 100% thought he was doing the right thing and so did everyone around him and no one thought to think hang on a minute have we got have we bought any of that
(15:07) stuff or will we what what's go you know that's those reflexive questions are hard to ask as no one wants to hear them because essentially you're spoiling the party aren't you and you go hang on a minute is this are we the baddies here have you seen that um David um Mitchell and uh Mitchell and web sketch where they they they they've got Nazi uniforms in and they're standing in the trench and they're all proud and they're all shining and there and one of them turns you this is are we the baddies are been
(15:37) having to think and he said what do you mean are we the bu say well we got a skull and crossbones on our hat what's going on and as this conversation goes on you know what I mean I love that example of we can't see beyond our own habitats because we saw believer because everyone around us does so where do we start if we're in an organization what's the starting point how do we kind of disrupt that dialogue is everything and dialogue isn't just what people see it it's how they see it it's the words they
(16:03) use it's the words that get used repetitively it's paying attention to when someone says something in a particular way using particular words that gets a response from others and paying attention to that response so George Herbert me another name um is was an American pragmatist philosopher colleague friend I think of of lein um and he's he had had this idea of what he called the the gesture and response and he said that the meaning of the gesture is in the response so as we like we're doing now we're having a conversation
(16:41) that's constrained by the technology nevertheless though I I'm paying attention to to your almost unconsciously paying attention to your your responses to my gestures and as you respond to my gesture it changes the meaning of my original gesture which is an ongoing process of us trying to make sense of what's going on here and I want to make you smile I want to make you respond you want to do the same with me and so we get into this process of engaging with each other to try and have a pleasing healthy conversation which is
(17:13) absolutely natural and and the meaning keeps changing that's the point the meaning of what we're doing keeps changing so paying attention to the patterns of meaning in teams groups organizations or people that we're working with to see where the pattern starts to reiterate what is common that keeps coming around here because those are the things that are the loops that tell you something about what this organization values what it responds to where it gets rewarded all of those things or where it doesn't get rewarded
(17:46) if somebody says something and it's like a you know the the stuff's rolling down the Western kind of um thing um those are the moments I think we need to be paying attention to because those tell us something about what can and can't be said around here which is what culture is really a famous person once said it's the way we do things about around here but actually I think it's the way we talk to each other around here the patterns of our conversations and our relationships is the culture and just to
(18:11) get super pragmatic here so you know that and and we kind of know that looking in how do you get consent from the client or the space with the client to start talking in those ways because you you've mentioned with dialogue and most go yeah how do you how do you enter their grammar to start talking in and get them noticing these things it's a really great question Garen I think and this is where you know I kind the phrase in my thesis functional collusion and uh the collusion is the way we talk to each
(18:45) other the kind of assumptions we all make and agree with even if we don't agree with them we have to agree with them in an organization to be able to function and get on and that that's a function right so smooth running of organizations requires us to collude with assumptions and beliefs and ideas that like this fiveyear plan is going to happen we all have to just buy that even if most of us got it's not going to happen yeah every five year plan get ticked off at the end yeah exactly and evaluated no uh so
(19:15) um uh you know we all have to kind of buy into that stuff because it it creates the function of us being able to get on and know what to do next right creates the idea of predictability I think it's a fallacy to see that as consultants we can just want into an organization go to the CEO and go I'm just going to have a chat right and and I'm going to have a chat with your team and then we're going to have a chat together I might chat to some other people I might not don't quite know what's going to happen is that all right
(19:39) would you mind ping me a couple of grand a day to do that is that okay uh no that's not going to happen because the habitus in organizations requires a plan requires deliverables requires you to commit to outcomes because those are the things we value in organizations even if we know they're not really going to happen um I've had situations where I've worked with the lead where we both knew what we were doing there was bit more conspiracy than collusion really because we were talking about it you know we
(20:05) kind of went we know the planners and the um the people who who govern what we buy here in terms of consultancy and not going to buy us just chatting to people right so he says you do a plan I'll agree with it we'll sell it to them and then we'll change it as we go along because then it keeps everyone happy it keeps all smooth and we can we'll not worry about the outcomes that we've committed to because we'll change as we go along and and that's all fine and I've done that you know and that's a
(20:33) collusion right so but it has a real function in getting the space to work but coming back to the end part of your question Garen I think the how do we pick it up I think it's really really paying attention to how someone's talking to you and have either of you ever done NLP neurol linguistic programming a little bit I am a practitioner and a master practitioner but I don't like it very much so so I think some of it can be manipulative and some of it is just plain crazy however there are some things in it I think that
(21:06) are really useful and one of those things I think is is being able to mirror back to our the people we're working with how they talk to us the words they use the language that gets used not in a manipulate the way but in a way where to show them I've really listen to you I've paid attention to what you say and I'm going to reflect back to you what I've heard in a way that I hope you understand so and that's in a gesture response process so I'm paying attention to the response in the
(21:35) micro as someone is responding to what I've just said and adjusting as I go because I'm looking for the response I'm looking for and I'm trying to find a way to to get that Rapport that that feeling of resonance in in a conversation where we can feel safe enough together to really see what we need to see and I think that can be practiced we can get better at that the more we do if we're paying attention to it so that's I think what we do and I think it's remarkable how good you can become with that and
(22:08) then you also have to always think ethically about how am I using it uh am I manipulating here or am I doing it for the good of all that's the big question human beings are fascinating aren't they it's it's it's a life's work and what was your journey into OD we haven't got all day so I'll give you the poted version um I I was working as a a relatively senior Le I was running the Northwest and Northern Ireland operational part of the bard of Border agency at the time uh I wasn't very
(22:40) happy I wasn't very good at it because I'd been promoted quite quickly and I was I wasn't ready for this big job really massive budget 450 people really tricky work you know what I mean because we were you know arrest teams were working and we were had like three four airports to to to wol City to lead I didn't really know what I was doing I didn't know that at the time because I was um a bit less aware of myself perhaps you we see it at that time uh but I got a coach and he and he I found
(23:11) his process really fascinating and I just just lit up a kind of curiosity for me and I then thought well what is this leadership stuff what how do we learn it and I went to Rie park for the first time ever to to work with a company called Olivia myad drama and it's Lawrence Olivia's son Richard Olivia runs this company and they do uh leadership programs drawing on Shakespearean text now when I was a kid and I did my a levels in English and drama so I was fascinated I was going to be an actor when I was
(23:45) 18 um I wasn't going to be an actor but anyway that was my dream so to find this thing that was using Shakespeare I love Shakespeare and I was a big fan of Lawrence Olivier I loved his work so to work with his son for three years so I'm because I was senior enough I kind of managed to Salt away a little bit of budget for my own development and pay for this really ridiculously expensive 3D program at Ry Park uh and and part of that was a real examination of purpose of me who am I to lead because we were
(24:16) using the text of MC Beth and thinking about authentic leaders leadership and it completely threw me I was kind of I went home I said I can't do this job anymore I'm going to have to I'm going to go and be a teacher uh and my wife quite rightly said actually G we've got two kids in a mortgage so let's have a think and so ultimately I moved into change management and then I persuaded the Border agency and my boss to use half the training budget appear for me to do the Masters at Ry because I'd been
(24:43) to Ry I'd seen the leaflet those leaflets do work sometimes miraculously and i' uh I managed to persuade them to let me on the Masters even though I had two really rubbish a levels in English and drama it took me a while there's a guy called Andy Smith he's still around still working Ry as an associate who who I had to persuade quite hard to let me on the Masters and then I did two years on the Masters at Rie and I loved it and it changed my view of everything got me really interested in complexity Theory and the
(25:13) complexity schill at har vure I met Ralph while I was doing that Masters and I I didn't want to do any PhD or doctorate I wanted to do that one because that one was the really fascinating thing for me so I I was lucky enough to be able to do that later in life um so that's what got me in and from then on I only ever worked in or do in HR spaces really and I I've never looked back since I because I remember reading a few of the books that were coming out of heart fure at the time and they were talking about things like
(25:40) power and complexity and it was it was like my my they're actually articulating some of the things that we're seeing and it's quite challenging kind of text as well isn't it yes yeah what when what was the light bulb moment for you in terms of complexity because it's again complexity Falls in alongside agile and strategy words that have kind of lost their meaning over time haven't they what was it about complexity that really lit a light bulb inside you I want to tell tell two little stories here if I
(26:06) might to illustrate this when I first started the um Masters my learning set advisor we work in small sets all the way through and you have an advisor someone who's experienced to support you it's a chap called Steve tpy who's now a really good friend of mine but I was quite um as I say I might not have been hugely aware of myself when I started it and I was kind of uh I was challenging everything saying well that's rubbish and that's rubbish and that doesn't work and he said um we started the Masters uh
(26:35) saying this is all Lord of all rubbish and you spent the last 12 years trying to prove it and that's probably not a bad analogy and the reason complexity speaks to me is the we the the people that hure and there's you know there's 70 or so graduates from that Doctrine the way they describe their experience in organizations has a Resonance of reality with me it's not offering some Nirvana kind of this where we can all hug and kiss each other and everything's wonderful because I just don't believe it and I've never really
(27:08) believed it because my experience I mean you I don't know whether you can even imagine what work life is like in the immigration department and the Border agency it's not Nana and everyone hugging and kissing each other I can tell you that so my experience was not that and I also was hugely um dubious about anyone describing any process that was going to get us there and I think what the har complex and what complexity Theory tells us is you know especially complex responsive process of relating which is is a kind of branch of
(27:39) complexity Theory which is what Ralph uh Ralph I'm going to name check all three of them just so that we because Ralph St is the one we all heard of but Doug Griffin was hugely influential on Ralph sty and I'm I was lucky enough to work with Doug before he died really really impressive mind and Patricia sure all three of them together arguing with each other actually and really arguing with each other uh came up with moved on to this complex process perspective and uh and I think that tells us the reality of
(28:13) our world and without prescription to how to fix it you know the prescription is in our own hands we have to work that out in the context of working and that speaks to me too so I think that's the future is fundamentally unpredictable and yet there are some things predictable about it which is slightly paradoxical and working together to create the future together and arguing and fighting and competing with each other and all of those things that that that help us emerge into a future which is unknown is is something that I find
(28:45) terrifying but really exciting you imagine a world where we actually knew what was going to happen in 10 years time how boring would that be I think someone might put a bet on it if they well let's not talk about during the election period given the reading the news at the moment how much should a a modern manager know about complexity to lead well I don't think you need to know or he or she or they don't need to know anything about complexity I don't think it's the theory isn't that
(29:16) relevant for me it helps me understand why I'm talking about what I'm talking but I think there are what I've been working on recently is I think there are three things I would there's another number this is not a prescription I promise um attitudes I call them so they're not skills they are ways of approaching our relationships with others I think and ourselves because we're always in relationship with ourselves that's kind of how we understand who we are I think and I think the first one I would say and this
(29:47) is this is not new everyone talks about it all the time but deep curiosity deep curiosity about who we are how we respond to others and how they respond to us the effect and impact we're having on others the effect and impact they're having on us that's really important starting point if we haven't got curiosity we're never going to learn anything and we're never going to change anything that happens or what we do the next one I think is is a bit trickier because it's harder because it
(30:13) introduces the potential for shame as a as a process is we have to be able to doubt ourselves and what we think we know and if we can't do that again the curiosity is not going anywhere because we're only going to be curious about things that confirm that we're right so we have to be able to hold the idea that we've got it wrong you know I I talk I spent four years working on my thesis published my thesis got my doctorate if someone come along tomorrow with a really convincing argument that I got it
(30:42) all wrong I have to be able to hold that lightly enough to listen pay attention and learn from it even though it were challenged the four years work I did it's that kind of stuff I think and and really challenging who we are and what we do so curiosity and doubt working together for us to start that learning process and then real learning comes when the third thing is being willing to be transformed in our interactions with others and that means being up for changing uh and Sh reshaping in response to that who we are you know the
(31:17) psychologists will tell us that essentially to be a healthy human being you need to have a stable psychology a kind of free a kind of setting who you are that is stable and that's true and that's important it's changeable but it's hard work and that's the kind of transformation I mean we can change the kind of dat de stuff that the the habits but even that takes a long time right we all know how hard it is to change our habits uh but really being up for being reshipped in terms of what we
(31:47) believe is true that's a tougher job but I think it's one we have to be up for and it doesn't happen overnight there's no light bulbs it takes months years to work on it and I think that happened for me over the doctor which is how I now think about so I moved from a kind of the world I was steeped in was full of metaphors and systems and things uh the the the academic word is reification we rify things to create things of them so they'll stand still long enough for us to have a look at them right and we
(32:15) create metaphors to try and understand them moving from that to a process orientation and a process orientation starts to recognize actually systems and organizations are imaginative Concepts that are useful but they're not real things what is real is the relation the ongoing patterns of relationship that that we find ourselves in that we're experiencing every day and the useful thing to think about from complexity perspective is that those local patterns of relationship form the global patterns of relationship so the things that
(32:47) everybody starts to believe and and work with and they then start reshaping the local because those those constrain what we think is possible in our local relationship ship and so there's this process going on of forming and being formed by the local and the global all the time which is a bit of gobbley group from complexity but pointing to the fact that this is an ongoing process of formation of people and relationships all the time and that's what we pay attention to just like to go back to something you mentioned very briefly
(33:16) there the role of Shame and how that get in the way I was going to ask a question of that's really resonated with me yeah I think we we see it all the time in the organizations and teams and leaders that we work with and the avoidance of it does a lot I think I think that's what what our drive to collude with others is shim is an interest I would I would describe shim as an individually experienced social process now I'll try and explain what that means so we experience it as if it is only us we the
(33:49) shame feeling is one of feeling we are wrong we are the wrong person in a wrong situation and we exclude we feel excluded it's the exclusion thing that happens to us from the group the important thing is to recognize the group are feeling too and so we might think it's only us but actually it's being formed in this gesture and response process in the group and and how to respond to that in the moment when we're absolutely terrified or feeling really horrible and want to run away want to go and hide uh being able
(34:23) to sit with that painful experience and find a way to see it something about it to the group in the moment is is the find trying to find a way to talk about it to you I'm I'm feeling this I'm absolutely terrified I'm I'm feel like I want to run away what's going on for us that that means that I feel that way because I'm not creating it from within me it's going on in the social process of interaction with us so what is that about and what are we protecting by perhaps shaming another individual or
(34:55) perhaps allowing someone to fail shame and get excluded what is it in the group that we're protecting in order to do that because there's something the thought in the group that doesn't want to explore what someone has just said or what someone's just done or they've got it wrong I've wrote in my thesis about an experience I had with a charity I was working as in the global change I was what was I I was uh Global head of corporate change still don't understand what any of that means but that's my job
(35:25) that was my title U I wasn't very successful um depending on how you measure success I didn't really know what I was doing for about two years which is probably not a bad thing but it didn't feel very nice um and I was presenting to the board and my job was to get them to think about how to shift it's kind of what organizations talk about now in terms of decolonialization but we didn't talk in that way then that word hadn't been invented yet so we were talking about the similar thing how to
(35:50) shift the power dynamics in the organization to be more Global um and that was my job and so I was invited to spend an hour with the the board who are you know there's Bishops there's very senior people from organizations the board chair is a former Archbishop of Canterbury do you know what I mean this is like a people steeped in history and tradition do you know what I mean and I wandered in there and thought I know I'll invite them to talk about the power relationships in this organization what
(36:18) they think about them did no prep didn't pay attention to the fact that that's not what they do in their board meetings they have a genda they have a structure they have an indication of what they're expected to think and do and respond to and it's all very tight and cleared out and I wandering and say let's have a chat about power I went no we won't be doing that Grim uh and the V various things were like don't quite know what you want us to do Grim what is it you want from o grim and I just started to
(36:47) shrink back and feel enormous shim now I had some choices there and my first response was to blame them for not being being willing to talk about power uh but actually it was it was constructed between us because yes it's true they didn't want to talk about the power dynamic in the organization and I hadn't prepared in any way for them to do so I hadn't paid attention to their habitus their patterns their habits their relationships and I should have done that before I did that and as a result
(37:15) of that session I wanted to run away I had to stay the the night and have dinner with them and it was excruciating so I had an early dinner and went to bed uh what I I stayed with the organization for for quite a while afterwards and that was a real learning point for me about shim and the impact it has on us and the power dynamics involved in the emergence of sh in a group so um I think what we spend a lot of time doing is being nice to each other to avoid that happening to anyone and us and that's what I mean by the collusion and the
(37:48) function of it is to avoid shame to avoid exclusion to avoid uncertainty because if we do what we've always done no matter how rubbish it is at least you know what's going to happen next right I know I really understand for me that really helps me understand why people in abusive relationships they in them because at least they know them at least they know what's going to happen tomorrow or next week it might be really horrible but at least they know because to leave an abusive relationship is to
(38:17) fundamentally not know what's where I'm going to be what's going to happen next I feel really unse so yeah um that's I think what shim is doing is that was that did that make any sense at all it it did yeah and it's really interesting it's a really powerful story and it articulates it really clearly and I think you know most people that have had those kind of interventions have had those moments haven't they it's just like okay this has just happened I've got choices they're not good ones but I
(38:43) have choices but um there's that tool isn't there the perceived weirdness index where if you are too similar to what they used to you won't even like create a ripple but if you go so far over on the weirdness index like the group's just going reject you where would you have put that on the weirdness index do you feel for this so I I was I probably you know I didn't turn up in a clown suit so I wasn't completely over on the weel thing because I did turn up with a certain tie which I rarely wear
(39:11) unless I'm in that kind of context but so I was down on the we I was kind of inviting them to do stuff that was a bit weird I I sometimes use the weirdness index in presentations when I'm talking about functional Collision because it has a relationship but I think the problem I have with the weirdness index it sits in that world of us as separate from the group and being an individual acting upon a group it still has that flavor to it it has that tool feel to it whereas I think you know I think we have choices about
(39:41) whether to clude or not but we don't know what they are until they're right in front of us until we're in the the relationships and the gestures and responses we can feel them coming up bodily uh and and we can experience them mentally and I think not them noticing our response to them and being able to work with it in the moment is is really the the capability we're trying to develop through those three things I talked about earlier now there's a there's a I can't remember who it is but
(40:13) there's an a really well-known a writer that talks about reflecting on action and reflecting in action and I guess what I'm talking about is reflecting in action but again I think that reflexively responded in our relationship with is a bit more complex than just reflecting in action but it's in it's in it's the time perspective that in the working in the living present as Doug Griffin used this here so shifting gears a little what do you enjoy most about your role in working in od uh I just love I know if I was to
(40:48) ascribe to uh the mbti um uh yian idea of archetypes and which I don't but it's it's it's a language we can use right so um I'm I am an extrovert I get energy from being with other people that's true of me I recognize that uh so even if it's being with people on a screen I I can feel myself energized in a conversation like this that I don't get anywhere else um so having these kind of conversations with people having learning conversations where we're engaging with people in organizations in
(41:22) conversation in relationship is where I get my kicks so that's where it it is and if I'm honest uh the actor in me from being 18y old also loves the performance you and I I think we all you know there's again a book that was about the performance of s and or the yeah the performance of Self in Everyday Life so we're all performing all the time in different ways in different contexts and and I think I kind of En enjoy that kind of feeling of performance as I kind I was always really attracted to
(41:53) improvisational theater uh when I was uh studying Mike Lee I don't know whether you've ever heard of Mike Lee he said he he writes he does films and plays and he writes them using the actors who embed themselves in a character and they improvise the script there is a script in the end and they perform it but they improvise through their characterizations the script so it emerges from their interactions I was always hugely interested in that which actually tells me why I coton on so much complexity Theory and the ideas and that
(42:24) later in life so you know I got enjoy the performance and what do you find more challenging what are the bits of the the work that we do that you think that's that's that's that's hard that's challenging I I would say there's two these sponsors where I I struggle and I'm still learning is when someone is deeply defended like they give you nothing back I mean their defense is up and and you try lots and lots of ways to get them to engage with you or open up or tell them something about yourself tell you
(42:54) something about themselves and you can't get at it that is really I find that really hard to work with because I don't understand it because I'm usually oversharing personally you know what I mean so I when someone doesn't it's hard to work with because there's just no response to your gesture that you can understand so that's one and also um uh I really for lots of reasons from my childhood I think I struggle with uh anger and um you know real anger where someone's really angry because when I
(43:27) grew up there was quite a lot of violence I grew up in a council state in Sunderland and I went to a sink um well it's terrible because it was actually quite a good school but it was the school where people got sent to when they get kicked out of other schools do you know what I mean I I remember I was sitting in English class once and there was a chap chap who'd been expelled from another school and he turned up and I knew he was coming and he sat right next to me a proper like uh really kind of hard violent guy uh and was definitely
(43:59) uh and he sat wrecked me in English and and I thought I don't even know what to say to this guy he's completely alien to me but that the school was full of people like that so it wasn't it wasn't violence was almost a kind of weekly occurrence you would see it regularly proper violence and and at home and in the street and that kind of thing so I've I tend to and I'm getting better at it but I tend to equit a lot of anger with the potential for violence and I connect those things together and
(44:27) actually when someone's angry at a response that you can work with so I I need to get better at working with that and I have done a lot better over the years uh I'm not as fearful of the potential for violence that I might have been when I was younger but those are the two things that I struggle with because I guess they're extreme the two extreme ends aren't they of if you imagine that as in terms of response the two extreme ends of potential responders either nothing at all or extreme kind of
(44:55) anger um and those two struggle with but on the hall I work hard to be curious about what it is that's making someone angry and try and find a way to talk to them how do you sort of measure success in your role like how do we sort of show to an organization or to our commissioning person that we've we've delivered X or you know there's actually been success like how can OD interventions demonstrate sort of value for money or impact not in a traditional way I wouldn't say it so I think one of
(45:27) the one of the tricks of evaluation is to assume you know what's going to happen before you start why would you do the work if you knew what was going to happen before you start it doesn't make any sense to me it's mad um however I think there has to be an intention so I think we can hold an intention in mind even if we don't know whether we'll get there or the route will take we there's a there's a valid ethical moral objective in mind what we want to do and so starting with that in mind and and um
(46:00) I think George Herbert meet and certainly Doug Griffin talked about um uh bringing the intention into the living present so as we're working together we don't quite know what's going to happen we don't know what's going to emerge we have an intention together and we keep checking in on the ethics and the morality of that intention draing all kinds of um other authors too but so if we're reflecting constantly on Our intention and the impact is having in the living present then I think we can be longer term even
(46:30) if it's not a planned longer term we have a we have a I'm not going to call it a destination because that then brings us back into the reification and the metaphor I'll call it an intention but we can understand that is a destination I guess it's a it's a very seductive invitation isn't it to sort of say this work will do these things how do you sort of ensure that you get that permission to do the work that they because and some sometimes you I think you have to this work will do these
(46:58) things and you have to try and find the best possible ethic and ethical and moral way of seeing that uh even if you say you know our intention is that this work will do these things and our starting point is we think we'll do them this way so using your language to make sure that you're not over promising stuff but actually to using the language that works in the context is really important you can't you you can't walk into a room full of French people and expect to talk English to them and get
(47:24) what you need it's the same thing when you enter an they've got a way of talking to each other as we've just talked about pay attention to what that is use that language but use that language in a way that starts to introduce your own set of understandings and ethical standpoints so that you're not completely colluding but you're colluding enough or if you like you're being weird enough to uh to uh to get them to engage with you and work with you and then hopefully you're moving all
(47:51) the time and be prepared to move yourself that's the point so the what keeps it away from manipulation is you are part of the process of being changed in it uh that's why I think I'm I'm quite critical of a lot of the coaching texts that kind of give you the idea that coaching is a process that you're you're almost a catalyst in you're unmoved you know I mean you're unaffected and if anyone's I don't know whether either of you ever coached anyone but I'm deeply affected and
(48:20) shaped by a lot of the relationships I've had with coaches over the years I did coaching in a women's prison life called I was part of a charity that was doing life coaching in a women's prison and one of my one of the Coes I've most been affected by was a young woman 23 found herself in prison made some poor choices had two kids outside being looked after by her mother and uh I was deeply affected by our relationship together and how she was thinking about the world and how she was reshaping what
(48:50) she was thinking and it really made me think about my life as and then who I am too so I think in whatever we're doing being up for paying attention and being transformed by what we're doing yeah and I guess that that that does that provoke a need for supervision then the fact that you are in likely to be influenced or to project be projected upon and and all sorts of dynamics that happening where you're in that sort of coaching space I I was doing and continue to work with uh a couple of Ry Associates Ry are
(49:21) doing some um Research into Supervision in AUD practice and what does it look like like um I'm not going to prejudge the outcome of the uh the research but a chap I don't know whether you know chap called alist Wy was one of the aliser Wy was is one of the Consultants that were're working with but anyway de have and aliser uh we were having a alist did some um desk research some kind of uh uh review of the literature and what's really interesting you can see how supervision has emerged from the kind of
(49:54) clinical processes and the coaching supervision that that does a onetoone supervision there's quite a lot of that going on and actually I think that starts to view or D process is an individualistic uh proceed and I think that's all wrong I think that where we get the best possible supervision I've been doing a a Foundation program with the Institute to group analysis for the last year because I think groups are where we learn about groups and all day practice is all about groups and our participation in them and what shows up
(50:26) in a group is our habits of how we respond to others and being able to explore them in the in the real time so I think I think a supervision is enormously important if we're going to practice ethically I think there not nowhere near enough of it around and I see some really dodgy ay practice I think uh where people are able to think that they're somehow outside of these things and they don't need to think ethically about what they're doing to other people I see that a lot in AAR practice as well by the way
(50:55) I'm sure we all do but I think in groups where we're fced with having to steer with our impact on others and their impact on us is where we can learn most about ourselves and our practice and talk about it in a way where we'll be properly challenged and supported what are some of the biggest lessons you've learned so far if you look back over your your career lessons that you take forward one of the biggest lessons I've learned and I'm still learning in a fairly major way is uh to care for
(51:21) others one has to care for oneself um and that sometimes can feel a bit selfish if you're not used to doing that but it's really important and I've always really admired people who understand what their needs are and are able to to to see them really clearly uh so I think that's something I've been learning all my life and still am and I think being able to do that means you can really be in great relationships with people and pay attention to uh having their best interests in mind but recognizing the
(51:53) process of relationship that's going on because that's where we get lost I think is when we we lose ourselves in the needs of others or in the needs of ourselves one or the other I that's really important and this so this is I was having the conversation with a couple of people recently and they were been really pessimistic about the world and global warming and all of that stuff and I think one of the great things complexity dings to us because the future is fundamentally unnormal is we can always hope we can hope that through
(52:22) this adversity someone will find a way and a group of people will find a way and we might get involved in a way to shift the world in our local relating that somehow has an impact on those global patterns so none of us are are helpless we can all do something to try and affect the global patterns that are emerging that might shift things to a better future and we can always have hope Chris Ms who now runs the doctorate in in har talks about the the com the complexity of Hope and um it offers us opportunity to work together and believe
(52:59) that there is hope and we can change you obviously spent a lot of time doing research and kind of how do you how are you investing in your own learning development what's what's kind of particularly interesting you at the moment I've been doing the instiute group analysis work I don't think I'll go in it tends to be um appro for people who work in clinical settings and mental health so I'm work in my group there's a lot of people doing mental health work so it's I don't really want to go down
(53:23) that road much further I don't know the answer to that I really thought about what the next I'm I'm you know I'm not one of these that says my formal learning is done I have my doctorate and therefore I know I I'm always open to something that might come along or things that people might be doing that I can participate in I think most of my learning in the future is going to be paying attention to what's going on I've got a trip to Australia in a couple of weeks I've never been there and so I'm
(53:49) fascinated how we might be separated by a common language in in our different cultures um and I think that's going to be fascinating and I'm going to spend some time with some a practitioners there I think those kind of opportunities is where my learning will be where I'm working when we did the Masters at Ry it ended up because it was online being really Global people from Africa and Australia and New Zealand and other PES joining the Masters that's the stuff that gets the juices FL and talking to people who see the world
(54:16) completely differently to you spending time with them to try and see the world from their perspective that's Stu prob interesting what advice would you give someone starting now either the beginning of OD or they're in a sort of a a discipline and they're starting to notice OD and how it might make an intervention because obviously OD it's unregulated you know you don't get a license to practice so there's just so many different Pathways and part of it is the richness of the profession but
(54:43) also sometimes can be a challenge to as well so what advice would you give to someone who's actually considering starting a career in od uh you know when all people tell you that you have to have some experience first and it really irritates you when you're in your 20s I'm kind of I'm trying to find another way to see that that's not not quite as irritating but I I think you do you know do something else first I think you find a way to work in organizations that doesn't start with you steeping yourself
(55:12) in or because I think if you do that then you get locked into a kind of we of thinking about what you do that feels like a profession uh and and you end up being part of a club other professional you know I mean and and with the Mark Brothers guy who said you know any club that wants me as a member is probably not worth being a member of do you know what I mean to pretend I'm not I'm not a great one for being a member of anything but I I genuinely think there's a danger in starting off without having a decent
(55:43) amount of life experience in organizations before you move into the world of world D I genuinely think that whether you choose to go into Learning and Development or HR or another related field I think those are all valid ways in spending some time in organizations doing a job in an organization is is I think the best way and be learning about OD at the same time but getting into OD practice I think you do need to have some of that embedding of organizational experience before you can really get the grips of the otherwise you've skipped a
(56:17) step I think yeah I was gonna say there's nothing like is there being part of a a team or a group or seeing it seeing it in action and being a to really relate to it it's also it's it's the lived experience when you feel that sense of helplessness or agency in a system that you can actually it makes you better practitioner most does that well if you're not careful you can be surrounded by people who make it not your fault it's the fault of the client or it's the fault of the Coe or it's you
(56:42) know I mean and everyone around you will agree say yeah they didn't understand what you were doing or they didn't get it right and I think we can end up in a little group of professionals who just reinforce each other and that's really dangerous I see a bit of that happening in here are you know I think it's become really aifi as a profession and and I think cibd so do some fantastic work and I'm a big fan of what they do and a childhood fellow without actually doing all the work to get there just to be
(57:09) clear about that I did that kind of experience entry point you know so I you know I and I think the people who do all of that work and the HR professionals who really understand the law and the implications for policy and how that policy is operationalized I think that is an enormous skill and capability that all organizations really need and often don't really value enough and I think through the process of uh becoming a kind of Club where you have to pass exams to get into what um ludig Fleck called the thought Collective uh you end
(57:44) up having to demonstrate the thought style which becomes who you are and you often struggle to think outside of it I love the fact that OD is doesn't have boundaries and doesn't doesn't lost in its own Echo ch and we're constantly at our best when we're looking outside for new things to challenge us I guess with OD there's always a difficult a challenge that it might disappear up his own bottom at some point though yeah I think that's true of any thought Collective we think we're great because
(58:12) we're better than everyone else yeah um gra I want to say huge thank you it's been a really rich and expansive conversation it feels like we're only just scratching the surface of your different perspectives and experiences and insights as well but I can't speak for but I've really enjoyed it I've really enjoyed it and I definitely think there's a part to in this if you're willing to if you're willing to anytime I I can talk about this stuff uh at length as you've already recognized but if you think it's
(58:39) interesting and you think your listeners and viewers will think it's interesting I'm really happy to come back anytime I've really enjoyed meeting you both I think you've got a fantastic podcast here I think all power to you for inviting people to to offer a bit of challenge into the world of OD and to to to give some you know give something gives a niche for people to scratch a bit you know what I mean so that we are thinking a bit more and if I've done a little bit of that to the end then I'm
(59:04) delighted and if and I can do it again and you want me to I'd be delighted to do that too brilliant thank you um and if people want to follow your work if they want to uh either reach out to you or just to follow your thoughts or even understand where you might be sort of appearing whether it's in in Australia or where else what's the best way people to to follow your work find me on LinkedIn that's the first way so you'll find me on LinkedIn and I'm open to connect Ing and and chatting with
(59:28) anybody who wants to is it all right if I give my email address of course yep if you're happy go the show notes as well yeah sure it's it's Graham DC courtis virgin media.com brilliant I want to say a huge thank you for your time it's been a really brilliant conversation and thank you so much really it's been a great conversation thank you been a pleasure thank you enjoy the rest of your day and all power to your podcast but really it's goes off into the stratosphere because it's good stuff
(59:55) thanks Gra [Music] [Music]