Organisation Culture: Strategies for Positive Change with Dr Martin Egan NDC - OrgDev Episode 30

How do you unlock the full potential of your workforce through effective culture change? We dive deep into the world of culture change and its vital role in organizational success. Discover how to systematically identify and refine your company's culture to boost productivity and profitability. We explore the importance of understanding your existing culture, patterns of behaviour, how it impacts organizational effectiveness, and practical strategies for aligning culture with business goals. Learn from real-world examples and gain valuable insights into the transformative power of culture change in building thriving, future-ready organizations. 

💼 About our Guest
Dr. Martin Egan
Co-founder, NDC
https://www.ndculture.com/

Follow NDC here:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-...

Connect with Dr. Martin or follow his work here:
  / martinegan 

Dr. Martin Egan, co-founder of NDC, is a distinguished business psychologist and development consultant with a profound expertise in transforming organizational cultures to enhance business performance. His career is dedicated to systematically identifying and refining company cultures to support and drive organizational effectiveness, productivity, and profitability. Dr. Egan's approach centers on the belief that employees often adopt existing company

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Transcript

Transcript:
(00:00) hi and welcome to the org Dev podcast so how do you create culture change how do you use Executive coaching to transform senior leadership thinking even in the most pressurized of situations we're absolutely delighted to be joined by Dr Martin Egan today Dr Martin is joining us he has a fascinating background that combines things such as being a chemist interesting experiences in psychosynthesis Psychotherapy and culture change as well he's got extensive experience working globally with leading organizations now full
(00:31) disclosure I've actually worked with Martin Martin and I go back quite a way and we actually worked together in the Middle East last year which was an amazing experience but it was really great to actually work alongside Martin and and Martin has the ability to actually hold a room and and that's one of the most important things about organization is to be able to hold a space and in that space to create opportunities to transform even the most stuck of teams in his past he's worked with some really interesting leaders in
(00:58) their field such as Carolyn Taylor and Richard Barett I'm sure we'll find out more about as we go through the session today so he works and leads an organization called NDC which he founded with Matthew berock and this organization combines commercial scientific and psychological expertise they help organizations in many ways such as culture change building leadership capability aligning an organization around a strategy or transforming the effectiveness of teams at any level so obviously Martin's
(01:25) experience is underpinned by an extensive amount of academic experience he's a visiting Master's lecture in organizational Psychiatry and psychology he holds a doctorate in bi analytical science he's our first doctor of chemistry which is amazing intered to hear how that shaped his thinking he has a masters in Psychotherapy and he's also a certified supervisor in psychosynthesis and when he's not doing all this extensive glow trotting and work um he's also a very keen horse rider and actually has a few horses as
(01:51) well so uh so Martin so welcome and thank you so much for joining us great to be here and thank you for uh such a lovely integrated introduction some bits there that I feel humbled by when you describe them brilliant welcome it's Fab to have you there we'll kick off with an easy question maybe tell us just tell us a bit more about your role and what you do and your organization so as as Garen has said forming a company 10 years this year uh with Matthew beroch it's it's an Ever evolving role
(02:23) and I find that I'm maturing into what is it that we're really about and what is our work all about and when we boil it down it's really about identifying and uncovering patterns of behavior in organizations and helping them to sustain and map the right patterns of behavior that are going to give them sustainable success be able to deliver their strategies and and stuff like that my time is divided between internal managing a company that's beginning to have substantial internal culture of its
(02:51) own and dynamics of its own and I really feel in our role because we should walk the talk ourselves or as the metaphor says the shoemakers children often have the poest shoes we really want to make sure that we walk the talk on what we're doing ourselves and that's quite humbling for me because the area that I'm not strong in is systems and processes and procedures and Performance Management and uh repeatability of I'm more comfortable in the unfolding conversation and the creative ideas and
(03:20) the work that we do so in our company now as my as it's CEO it's my responsibility to ensure that I delegate what I'm not good at and and trusted and let it happen in fact I remember gar a moment you were pointing out to me how many hats I was wearing in a certain project when we worked together and that's not sustainable so hopefully Danny I'm able to say that I'm trying to wear the CEO and the lead partner in in steering and delivering projects but that a lot of other stuff is happening
(03:48) out from me fabulous and when you think about the work you do at NDC how does that differ to the work that other organizations in a s in the kind of same space do well what our clients tell us is that there's something they're not able to put their finger on uh that Garen alluded to in that holding of a room there's something that they talk about feeling feeling seen feeling experienced feeling understood and many many times we're told that you we feel like you're with us like that you're on
(04:17) our side and and there's something um that that has come actually not just from us that has come out of a tradition it it was feedback when I worked with Fred Kaufman on The conscious business work it was feedback that was often heard then as well that there was something about staying so present and being real and being connected and being able to be comfortable in our own skin and with the discomfort clients will have so that's a differentiator and the the the principles of of Richard Barrett's work is all about unfolding
(04:48) and about values and about becoming whole and growth and development I think we we foreground that in our work but that's not to say that we're doing that in isolation it's done in service of their Endeavor and what they need to do and what do your clients T is there a typical client that comes to you and says I I need I need you to help us with this or is there a particular thing they come to you with the honest answer is over the past 10 years no it's the whole gambus you know they'll come with
(05:13) everything but the more clients get to know what we can do they tend to want to come with something they're stuck with at the whole system level that they know that they've tried all the component parts and they've done good leadership pieces they've done values pieces they've done performance they've done various kinds of training and upskilling but still they're not getting the full benefit that they wanted to realize so they'll come with helping the group CEO and that's that's just in my head from
(05:42) this morning let's say the CEO to bring together the key players they need to have around them and to ensure that they've locked arms and are pulling together and know what they're doing and that they're all on the same so that's the biggest request these days to come and start at that level getting all people on the same page as we yeah and I I think obviously you haven't seen how you work firsthand I think it's it's not just about the day itself though is that there's so much work that
(06:07) goes in to create an environment where these they've had lots of interventions from different organizations and yet they're still stuck and it's the ability to do the work beforehand so the people feel that this work is going to benefit them it's going to benefit the organization so that kind of building a relationship and and even just before you're going into the room it's still connecting with them and making sure that they feel comfortable and with what's going to happen on the day so
(06:32) that they there's that real trust in you isn't there there is you you're reminding me of something that I probably ended up doing unconsciously Garen and when we worked together you highlighted some of it for me there's a preparing of the ground to help people make the most of the time and the opportunity so so as we know if you gather say for a a workshop with a group of senior people it could take an hour for them to get the day job out of their system and begin to focus and arrive and what are we here for well we found that
(07:02) there's a whole lead into that and and and separate conversations have to happen with different stakeholders to help prepare them to make the most of it what was your journey into this you've had a really interesting care sort of founded in chemistry and its move from there so what was your journey I'll try to give a short answer but it's a really really long one the shortest answer I can give is that I started out in analytical chemistry and the exposure there that I interested was was it was a
(07:30) lab technician after say a three-year training in analytical chemistry but it was a lab technician in an environment where they were producing shampoos soaps skincare products medicated skincare products and I got to see the whole system from the raw materials coming into that plant to the finished product packaging you know at pharmaceutical grade going out and the full quality assurance lab of both finished products and raw materials so that was meant to be my role you know in a lab just working on raw materials which is the
(08:03) Bottom Rung of the ladder when you start in in science coming in with stuff like that but what I was really probably in hindsight a bit of a busy body I I learned more by being on the factory floor really curious about about what was going on with all these boxes that were coming in where were they coming from why are they in those in that format barrels of stuff what's in the barrels where are they going and then in the production area you know it was all men at the time men in overalls just making thousands of gallons of shampoo
(08:34) those people knew more about what can go wrong with the making of This shampoo than any scientist back up in the lab but the the the hierarchy of things would be you know it's the lead scientist for formulation that's going to know those things so I think with a big interest that I had at the time in in in spirituality and growth and personal development and family and Pastoral Care Ministry they would have called it in in Catholic circles that interest with the science and the environment I was in you know a large
(09:03) production plant that started something in how systems operate and how people and patterns of behavior and systems are at play so that's really the starting point I went on to to do more in the science field and all the while in that I was able in order to pay the bills when I was in London I I also worked in the sector uh St Mongol which is a big homeless charity in London and I worked as a locom for for three years you know emergency winter hostiles you name it so I was always seeing the raw side of life
(09:35) as well as the privileged side that I was fortunate to have through science and research and and institutions like Q Gardens so I went and after making it to management level in science roles uh by the last science appointment I had I was actually specifically recruited because it was a dysfunctional team and I was really wondering reading between the lines what's this really saying about me as a scientist they just kind of had a look at the CV no more questions the the I was recruited because this was a
(10:05) really really fragmented broken not working team in a in a high throughput uh drug Discovery environment where there was a lot at stake and it really need so I was being hired really to do what I I kind of might do now even though I was also hired for a scientific role on paper and at that time I had already begun training as a psychotherapist part-time uh I did a two-year training which was condensed it was every Monday evening and one weekend a month and at the end of that by 2004 I had fully left the lab and gone into the
(10:38) NHS in fact it was a duel role with children schools and families in Merton and child adolescent mental health in in the um Southwest London St George's Mental Health Trust so again I was getting to see what's the dynamic even between local Authority and NHS and there I was fortunate enough to get a systemic training I got a training in Family Therapy systemic foundations and put that together with the depth work of analytical psychology and the Practical work of working with head teachers failing schools what I was able to
(11:11) discover when you're thinking about education and children especially in pupil referral units who are excluded from school and the work is all going on to work with the so-called Problem Child and you discover hold on a moment we've got problem teachers as well and we've got problem schools and problem community I don't think about it in problem terms anymore but that would have been the language of the day and because definition is really useful for people so systemic family therapy what what is that exactly systemic family
(11:39) therapy seeks to say that the solution of this family or this group of people lies somewhere among themselves to be uncovered not that there's an expert going to come in and diagnose and fix something in any one person the the problem located let's say a school refusing child you know they they're 14 years of age they're School refusing they're locked in their room they're they're becoming reclusive and they're not going to go to school so one approach would be well we're going to
(12:06) have therapy or some form of intervention with the child another might do a little intervention with the parent what a systemic approach does is tries to work with everyone in that system and I give a quick example the boy returns to school say three four months later and the thing that unlocked it was trapped grief in the family where the mother is actually still not resolved her loss of her mother and the boy is there unconsciously trying to protect the mother because he's worried about her now you don't he doesn't tell
(12:38) you that on the first couple of coaching sessions or therapy sessions and he never will tell you that but you unlock that through understanding together what's going on here so it's it's quite deep work isn't it and not necessarily taking the presenting symptoms as the as the thing to work on it's kind of having a curiosity isn't it it is so that's how I got into the work I do now that same principle is the I often say it even with with the executive teams we're working with it's
(13:04) the same thing it's a family system of an executive team that's playing out its own story not able to see itself but when you can help it start to see itself and see the role each is able to play and the impact each is having on each other and on The Wider business and everything that CES that they touch that's that's what systemic thinking is about and and during your career particularly at the beginning you had some quite formative experiences with very sort of inspirational people in their fields like Carolyn Taylor Fred
(13:32) Koffman and Richard Barrett as well didn't you I did you know I I I'm beginning to feel old because I look back in psychology as well I was working very closely with a guy called John Ron who's described as the father of humanistic psychology in the UK and I worked with him right up into his 90s you know had him as a supervisor and went to him and stuff Fred Kaufman was recruiting Fred and Carol and Taylor were both recruiting in 2007 to build a European conscious business Consulting team and I went through I remember being
(14:04) anxious and nervous as I can be on on the occasion will like make it it was a full uh series of virtual interviews followed by a whole weekend together with uh I think 30 people or 15 30 were recruited 15 people in in in the day that I was on and only I think out of 130 I think they went on to pick 10 and that was when I met Fred kofman and Carolyn Taylor Carolyn actually was in the recruitment select piece Carolyn quickly saw in me the background that was able to she was a specialist in corporate culture and diagnosing what's
(14:38) happening what's what's really driving the culture here what's the untold story in this system that's sustaining the culture you have and she recognized uh an aptitude I had to to tell the story that's written between the lines when you look at interview scripts or you look at all the information we have what's the story that's not told here so immediately Carolyn put me on on culture projects and what was the sort of approach to sort of culture change then like when you start working on a culture project
(15:07) what what typically is the the process that you'd follow well I'll fast forward a little bit because the recession came in in early 2009 late 2008 and that full-time role with with working with Fred uh became a part-time associate freelance let's see how we'll cope role and then at that time Carolyn and Christina ngira founded their own company walking the talk and they appointed me as as head of Assessments and so we built the whole Diagnostics of how can we make it more uh less labor intensive and more
(15:43) inclusive and more involved so we invented a system to use focus groups forensic focus groups to understand what's really going on and this is where the academic past came back I drew on something from burbeck actually H called interpretive phenomenological analysis an interpretive phenomenological analysis is a fancy way of saying how can we involve the bias and the subjectivity of the interviewer in making sense of what's going on because in in pure science that would be excluded you know you're not allowed in
(16:16) you're what you're experiencing has nothing got to do with the objectivity of what we're trying to find out but in this kind of work the subjectivity what you're experiencing might have everything to do with what we're trying to find out because as they say self is instrument in in in the theory about this so we we formulated that into a process where we were able to understand and analyze and really present back which is the the gold the pure goal for the executive team particularly the CEO
(16:42) really present back a picture of showing this is how the patterns of behavior in your organization are playing out this is what is sustaining them we believe it's a strong working hypothesis evidenced by this this and this and and already we have begun a dialogue of beginning to make sense of it because we've met enough of your people who are able to talk and understand about this so let's continue the conversation that would be our stance on culture work in a nutshell I think oh culture is such an
(17:11) interesting subject I was G to say what how do you define culture it's kind of that perennial question isn't it what's your personal definition I I use a definition that uh Carolyn Taylor came across from a a book called switch points written about the Canadian Railway system and in switch points there's a line where Ned Morse says that it's the patterns of behavior that are encouraged or discouraged by people and systems over time and we've played with that definition a little by adding the
(17:40) word tolerated to it when you add the word what's tolerated to it you really have a lot more my definition is definitely that the patterns of behavior are guiding every single decision how people are interacting how systems are interacting people with systems systems with people that's all the territory of culture and just a little bit of a followup question as well because again you're the first person that has particular specialism in culture I think it's really good to help people get grounding on it and we're talking about
(18:07) sort of patterns of behavior so what might be a sort of a a classic pattern of behavior that you might see in an organization either a healthy organization or or a dysfunctional one I'll go for a healthy one first even though my mind good we're always drawn to the deficit in our business AR we a healthy pattern is where the something that someone else is not okay with let's say at any level of the organization is able to be addressed openly and honestly And Timely so that would be a pattern and an organization even a newcomer
(18:40) coming into that organization quickly starts to catch on that we don't go off and talk about our problems behind people's back or in the corridor or somewhere else we actually in this company have a pattern of addressing it openly because that's what we do uh and and and addressing it in the moment being able to sit around the table and say I I have a concern I'm I'm not sure about what we're really saying here and what we're doing and here might be implications the courage to to address
(19:07) that and not sit on it for too long easy to do but it takes confidence it takes courage it takes self-awareness and it takes somebody in leadership who's able to be brave enough to trust that we can have that level of frankness and that level of openness respectfully so that would be a pattern do you want a negative one go on there I think a negative pattern would be where people don't realize what they're caught in so there's a there's a habit of coming into all of the meetings with a a sort of a frantic energy an
(19:44) urgency uh must please the CEO he wants this that she wants this they need this we need this playing to some agenda that's that they're unconsciously caught in or maybe consciously caught in sometimes what I think in the pattern that needs to be noticed is when is that unconscious when is it not a choice and when it becomes a choice because they know they're doing it and they can see that the the tide of the system the system forces of that organization are so compelling like a magnetic field that
(20:12) even a newcomer who wouldn't be so caught by that within weeks is actually swimming in the same floor to bring awareness to that that's catching out what the patterns are when you think about the work you do how how do you know whether the organization or the leadership team is ready to the work I don't know if I fully can know to be honest until it's too late as something happen of you about about 11:00 on the first morning you'll start to know um but having said that I'm getting even in
(20:43) the last couple of years if I have reflective practice and conversations you and I would have Garen as peers over the years as well helps us continue to fine tune what are the conditions of Readiness um the ultimate real Readiness would be shown when they have the courage to really realize that that what they might need to do is going to be uncomfortable for them sometimes and that they will have to be prepared to look in the mirror and be prepared to for things to change they must have to change and reflect and see their part
(21:14) and see how they're contributing now we don't always get that level of of receptivity from the outset I guess enough of Rapport and enough of Contracting in trust to say we we have a guideline we know what we're doing we know where we're taking you but we will find things that we cannot predict for how will we navigate them when we meet them and what will be the thing that will keep us uh on track I guess the challenge is always it's everyone's on their own individual Journey so if you take a a leadership
(21:44) team of 78 n strong-minded individuals all running very busy areas of their own organization some may have a stake in how it is at the moment because it allows them to do what they need to do so I guess the challenge is like who who is to Define that it's ready and this is the right thing to do that's a huge challenge um only today I I I heard from from someone that that person X wasn't really keen on us doing this work person y who used to not be Keen now thinks we need to do it straight away and where it
(22:19) depends on what's what's in on their agenda and what they're experiencing yeah so you work a lot with senior leadership teams what particular challenges does that bring I should think carefully before I answer that question the first thing that was on the tip of my tongue was egos I think the challenge that I realized maybe six or seven years ago was that when they're already at the top if they're already very very senior their openness and willingness to develop and grow and get to the next level has has plateaued and
(22:53) because it is plateaued there's a kind of a a sense of of being a bit of an noall that can come in and breaking the mold of being a noall is the biggest challenge I find and even when people are more open and humble to present as not being kind of arrogant or coming across as fixed or expert or stuck in what they're talking about or or what their position is on something it's still there and and and they've been promoted and rewarded by having that there so to get humility and openness and a willing to experiment and stay
(23:29) with not knowing that's the hugest challenge yeah and and the ego plays a role doesn't it Wonder to hear is it Rodney Evans from the ready said the ego is the bouncer that stops people coming in and going into the identity It's like because it does play a role and and to be honest like an ego at that level because there's so much critique you're so visible aren't you um you can't do right for doing wrong and and the ego is there is is a sort of a protective measure as much as anything isn't it so
(23:56) how how can you work with that and that's been the the biggest barrier I was going to expand Danny as well on your question to think that you know what's happening when it's not got enough of conditions to make that work what's the minimum viable conditions to make it work and where it gets really stuck is where the ego is threatened and they don't realize that it's threatened and then I have to skillfully uh navigate that which sometimes involved saying you know I don't think we're able to help you right
(24:27) now at this time you'd like somebody who can come in and give you the answer and it must be the answer you wanted so there are people who will give you that and it's not us and that's quite courageous to do that isn't it with the client to say is sometimes I need a glass of wine I need a glass of wine before that conversation we have had those conversations though and we've everybody has benefited by having them because it does a thing doesn't it even just having that conversation it
(24:53) provokes something and it does it brings peace at the end because uh one of the things I've been prone to is working too hard for a client and I hope that in my next phase of my career I'll have the wisdom to identify and recognize that earlier because there's no point I know this well from working as a therapist or working as a coach it's the client that has to do the work not the practitioner uh but it's it's easy to want to help at least I have that disposition and many of the people that are drawn to this
(25:21) work have the same disposition as well yeah and I guess the other thing as well with senior leaders particularly you know the ones that have very sort high in dominance is that they often listen in hindsight so they kind of walk away afterwards and aesthetically the interaction that you've just had doesn't look pretty but it's what they do afterwards it really matters isn't it and this is where the followup the intuition to know when is the right time to follow up with a gentle touch or a just following on that's the art of
(25:49) supporting and it's why when I think of some senior leaders who are un comfortable accepting coaching which if you look at the psychology of that in Hogan psychometrics for example example High adjustment tends to be feedback resistant at some level and in the worst cases uncoachable so what I found for in terms of working with uh people who find that more difficult calling that a reflective conversation calling that um a chat even though it's a very meaningful chat it's a very reflective chat about them about their work but
(26:23) it's in service and support of them so ultimately I have to remind myself when I'm frustrated in those scenarios that compassion is probably going to be the best solution for myself and for them in in that work and I'm going to ask a question I'm not quite sure where this question is going but it's it's it's just that for people that are watching this um a lot of it is about we use the word transformation it's kind of lost its meaning but but when you're with a room and you've done the groundwork and
(26:51) people are incredibly stuck and you've designed a carefully curated day and you know they they're just coming they're getting to the point where you just need to push a little bit more how do you know like it's a really difficult because it's a very tacit knowledge kind of thing but there's a sense isn't there because you there's always that kind of thing Do no harm yeah but there's but you've got to create enough tension to create change haven't you how do you know when it's
(27:18) time to push that a little bit further I love that question uh and this is where years of practicing as a practicing as a therapist has helped me I think I'm asking myself Where is the will available so where is the collective will even if it's I remember doing this once courageously in a room with 40 people in a two big divisions of a a multinational telecoms organization and it was like Trade union negotiations it was a pretty tough stuck situation and I had a super colleague with me but when you're working with a great colleague in
(27:51) those moments as well either one of us don't really know what to do either in the moment but we have to have enough of trust and faith in each other to think that whatever either of us do is going to be good enough or the right thing for now and I remember walking into this wall of very very senior Global kind of two divisions pretty fixed we'd already done you know four hours and it's pretty all the right things are being said but there's nothing moving and I just sometimes I use I use my mood I kind of
(28:22) can get very assertive very cross show my frustration show my emotion so a mix of getting the right balance of that and then asking with clear clear openness where is the will trapped here and then shut up and that unlocked the whole room so there's something around allowing silence to do this sort of heavy lift allowing the silence to do that and and I remember the the moment that that that comes after that question you never know what it'll be it'll usually be something very depressed and unspoken that wasn't able to come out
(28:53) before that's blocking the elephant in the room is the kind of easy language what I'm talking here about something more than an elephant in the room sometimes nobody in that room knows everybody in that room may have really wished with all the will in the world for this to be better and for to move in the right direction but it was stuck so I'm I'm Guided by a picking up on the well sorry to use technical language what would be called strong counter transference in my own body you know am I feeling tight am I feeling stiff am I
(29:22) feeling fear am I anxious what's going on and two questions is is it mine or is it from them from them from the system more often than not in those cases it's not mine at least mostly not I have my own too uh and using that information that's like inner information to guide a question to to give a clue about the tone that's needed in the question the energy that's needed in the question or where it might go so that's the best I can offer in terms of unpacking the great question what do you do and how do
(29:55) you know what to do yeah but but but I I think it's a it's it's a really important question to ask isn't it and I guess sort of that's preceded by really doing because the thing is like doing the work on yourself in advance isn't it like really knowing yourself and how you might respond to situations like that and understanding what's at stake for you because that can have an influence can't in terms of how you feel and then that allows you in the moment to think about the counter transference isn't it
(30:19) but it happens so quickly doesn't it so you almost need like muscle memory don't to go okay this is the thing and it feels like a feeling then doesn't it so the muscle memory is key in my view for having our own Center that that in in no matter how tense or or how much into crisis that work can go both in a longer term project that can be kind of sustain crisis in a project or in in in a workshop scenario or even a coaching scenario there can be crisis stuckness as well um where is my composure coming
(30:49) from how do I reenter and that's what in in the Executive coaching work we do a lot is try to help people find their own core find their own Center that they're their place to come back to and a lot of the work that's done on mindfulness I think is has the capacity to go there to cultivate that but I don't think it takes that next step it does the mindfulness work but it doesn't go the next step of saying you're practicing being mindful in order to have access to composure and objectivity when you need
(31:20) it that's the step so you work a lot internationally so you talked earlier about you and Garen had worked in the Middle East how much do you have to adapt your approach in in different different International contexts hugely hugely we wrote A Blog recently myself and John our colleague John crosson uh about our trip to Georgia and my first time going there and and and and we're still working there and I think we will go on a journey of learning about a the psyche of the the local group and the particular organization Dynamics as well
(31:50) but at the local level we were we were thrown by an assertiveness and a politeness and a welcome coming that didn't were in congruent for us coming from from England or from from this part of the world and trying to learn and navigate so therefore I had to learn to up the assertiveness with respect and hold the assertiveness much more strongly and firmly than I would have to hold it in Europe for example the Middle East is a whole other story where I believe that my irishness and understanding the kind of gregariousness of the Irish psyche
(32:26) has been an advantage in getting into the gregariousness of of other cultures sometimes when to be playful and frivolous uh when to stay chatting at Small Talk level for long enough and and you know I'd be fired in in some organization I did as much or as frivolous and how to use humor and stay with it and trusted and realize that this invitation for really silly humor sometimes and and banter that's maybe questionable is essential to them coming to ease and it's a signal from them that you're included and you're you're
(33:02) trusted so I don't think that's in a textbook anywhere it's it's stuff I've picked up from working I could go on country by country and and come with all my biases I am I know even across the various countries in Europe there are huge stretches of of style needed in in my interactions with with um with Dutch in particular I have to not take personally what I might take taken a front to uh 20 years ago I would have taken a front to some of the stuff that I now flow with quite easily and just
(33:35) building on that as well so again so in the room you're trying to you're identifying a pattern of behavior that everyone has agreed is not what we want to do we're not what we want to have and you know often cultures it's about face it's like you know extending face to someone so that you can they can maintain respect in front of their people how can you respectfully challenge that behavior like what what are the sort of different things at your disposal to potentially call that behavior because if you allow that
(34:02) behavior to exist in this room then it's a challenge then isn't it for for the Integrity of the program I think psycho education is a starting point respectfully assuming positive intent and then having methods of uncovering that the fact that intention and impact are of course not always aligned unpacking that and making people aware that how how how a become aware of where what's really happening for them which many people who have never been trained have to go there at all but have permission to do that without being
(34:36) intrusive and at the same time uh hold enough of awareness to be be bothered or care about how it is landed with the other person or the impact on the business are you getting what you want really one of the things that I think helps the most is is doing what Barry ashri calls a time out of time to to really get up on the balcony and say what's really happening here you all want the same thing actually but you're going about it in so many different ways what'll be a smart way of optimizing this together so language that's used is
(35:08) key if you when I use the word optimizing there I've gone for a performance scientific rational language in another setting that language would be the wrong language the language of creativity or growth or learning or development would have been the right language so I think the the art of this work is to match mindset worldview and language as much as possible appropriately and appeal to uh the next evolution of what that might be able to become so just shifting gears slightly when you look at everything you get to
(35:41) do what do you enjoy most what you get excited about doing my favorite is is getting an intact group an intact team so there are hopefully no more than 10 people say six to 10 people in staying in a conversation long enough to have a breakthrough about what it is is that they're prepared to lock arms together and I mean really energetically and emotionally lock arms and stand shoulder-to-shoulder together on executing that and I don't mean just executing a kind of a tangible ambition though that can sometimes be the the
(36:12) thing I'm also meaning the how are we going to and how are we going to stay stay on track and stay honest and stay in it that's what I love doing because it's an art and a science uh it's not something I ever do alone anymore I may have done that alone uh up to five years ago but for the past five years I will not do it to myself to leave myself alone in that setting that's why we work together Garen I reached out to a a peer I I respect that could stand shoulder-to-shoulder with me to do that
(36:43) kind of work that's my favorite and you talked about getting stay getting people to stay with it long enough to get that breakthrough and that that can be a real challenge can't it when we're working with with groups of leaders kind of wanting to short circuit and go and come and do it in an hour and do the thing in you know always the request in the current environment uh I have a higher number of clients than ever before who now want less with more and an urgency and time and not able to give permission or space for for
(37:13) something to take its course uh I think that must be just coming from from the the general climate globally at the moment because I often would have some who had that tendency but others who wouldn't and now I'm noticing that's becoming a little bit more contagious so we tried a contract for expectation management that you know this offsite today or one day is not going to be the Magic Bullet can we make sure we have at least a followup half day uh in a month from now uh so that you can the work in
(37:42) between in fact in the Psychotherapy world there's a lot of research done and a lot of reflection and a lot of literature on the space between and they're meaning the space between each session because is the work actually happening in the coaching sessions themselves or is the work Happ in the space between the coaching sessions themselves and I think it's it's both and my preference is to get a good Prov provoke enough happening in the space between the sessions or workshops or meetings or coachings um how often
(38:14) though more however very frequently it's only happening in the session and then they go off to the firefight the rest of their lives yeah because I guess the big moment is isn't it like you know you you have the the Breakthrough moment in the and again sort describing that after the Breakthrough is always a really incredible moment isn't it when the team have the Breakthrough and sometimes some someone who's unexpected says an unexpected thing and then the air changes doesn't it well please you tell
(38:42) us like changes now I I used to live for those moments I've become a little bit more cynical about them in recent years in that I'm even questioning my work to say is it worth even getting to that moment if we don't have the ground prepared enough for what they're going to do with that afterwards so if the conditions aren't right for for the Breakthrough to be able to follow through I would prefer to slow down and not push to the Breakthrough and this is very recent you know this is in the last
(39:14) 18 months that that that that's moved into my thinking however what I'd love to be able to unlock is when you've had a break through how do you ensure you put a continuity path to keep the momentum of it keep the spirit of it and to keep the activity from it alive I have a lovely example at the moment where and it's it's work you you're familiar with Garen I think where what has been sticky has been an unlocking of relationships so so the interpersonal relationships of of all the people
(39:46) involved has been sticky that has sustained before let's say there was fragmentation now there's real strong individual relationships and that's all working but the piece that it isn't is when they're all together so that's the next stage and that's why this work takes two years three years sometimes because there's growth and and and evolution all the time and hopefully positive business impact and risk mitigate and drisk the negative business impact and sadly can't always uh
(40:17) sometimes it takes a bit of negative business impact to get the the appetite up for the next stage or the next push and if you look back over your career so far what what would you say some of the biggest lessons you've learned are that you'd like to share I think we might have touched on one earlier in this conversation where how critical it is to gauge the Readiness of the sponsor and to understand the work that we will be asking of them and how they may need to change and stay the course to really get
(40:43) the benefit we're asking for my my learning is to get sharper and clearer about articulating that from the outset that's been a big learning the other learning I alluded to as well when we spoke was I won't do this work on my own anymore this work takes a very big toll at least in my experience uh psychically I have learned to ensure that I have a mentor supervisor for for my role of running a company and a psychological supervisor for my sanity and and pay close attention to that I've started to
(41:21) need to pay and maybe age is playing a factor here as well I needed to pay greater attention to nutrition to sleep to family life balance uh Gary mentioned the horses which play a huge role and I've been finding great excitement from joining up some of those a little bit not to take horses to work but I trained two years ago in in organizational Echo and assisted learning and was blown away by how horses can actually play a role in an organizational constellation and tell us a hell of a lot um so these are
(41:57) things that sustain me and my learning has been that I've got to have a balance of being able to sustain myself in these ways and the peer connections I have I've been very lonely in this work at times I've mentioned great people like Carolyn and Fred and Richard Barrett and Barry ashrey and other great people that I've been fortunate enough to work closely with they I don't have access to every day but I need a peer group around me who are the next generation of people carrying on this work and uh I'm proud
(42:23) to be in this conversation which I regard as one of those peer groups brilliant and then how do you invest in your own Lear Learning and Development what does that look like for you at the moment so I really miss the the lack of reading time that I have these days so I I get to listen to a podcast probably twice a month so that that's one of the outlets I make sure that I go and have conversations outside of work that are more dream conversations in the field H and that can include anything that's happening in the field of of psychology
(42:55) and and Learning and Development Psychotherapy and bring that into my own thinking our main learning is then happening through application the way we would do an after action review and really sometimes we take a half a day an after action review after a bigger project but after each Workshop we're taking an hour of proper after action review this is the biggest impact on learning I think yeah I think I remember being involved in a retrospective after the work that we did as well and is actually it's a good way isn't it a I've
(43:24) absolutely taken the lessons learned because obviously there's there's lessons to be learned from everything but it's also kind way of detaching from the work itself isn't it and then moving on to the next chapter it is it is and the the the trick then I've discovered because we've been doing this for a while is how do we ensure that those learnings that we did capture in these retrospectives are really carried forward and not just like oh yeah I remember learning that before let's do
(43:45) it again everyone should be doing retrospectives they're just the most powerful kind of meeting um and then last question and this is because this we want this podcast to really Inspire the next generation of organization development practitioners so whether they're internal or external whether they're doing a hybrid role whether they're just beginning in their career or even just exploring they're they're working in a chemistry lab somewhere near Q Gardens and they're thinking about this organization development
(44:12) thing what advice would you give to someone who's just considering or starting out start with as much as you can to develop your own identity and your own sense of self and really getting to understand yourself and then begin to build onto that understanding how are you in other contexts what are you like in in a hierarchical relationship what are you like in in a team relationship become aware of the role you you play which to get really psychological about this becoming interested in the role you played in
(44:43) your family of origin and how is that role you played in your family of origin beginning to play itself out in the role you now play yourself in at work are you the one who replicates and helps and keeps everybody happy or are you the one who is happy to cause trouble or be the Rebel or whatever it might be that you find yourself en roles on um that's two stages I guess of of beginning to grow awareness and development the the third stage in this becomes a lifelong job is noticing then where do you find yourself
(45:14) in the wider system what roles are you playing there and what roles are others playing there and we spoken during this dialogue about uh the system forces that can sway you and take you to really discover when is that happening you and how are you caught in it and what you need to do to become detached and step back again I mean that's Master practitioner level stuff but is if someone early on is aware of that those phenomena exist and can start to become curious about them identify them and then do anything that it'll take to
(45:48) develop learning even I remember joining Toast Masters years ago that was a super thing I remember having a voice coach which I thought gosh that's ridiculous it was why would I have that that was pre-joining uh Fred and Carol and I think maybe might have helped get get the job so do whatever it takes to self-develop but not in isolation in the context of of everything else around us wonderful well thank you so much for your time Martin I don't know about you Dan I'm feeling very grounded now to go
(46:17) do some to do some work um there's so many takeaways Danny and I always limited to three each so I've got five but I'm going to go for three here I I guess so some of the takeaways I'm taking away is just that kind of building to the Breakthrough Moment Like if that is the right thing that the team needs at the time like what do you do how do you notice when it's happening understanding things like counter transference and and how you are to to know when to push as well so that was that was really something I'm really
(46:45) taken away the importance of sort of looking after yourself in multiple ways because the you know it does take a toll it's this is tiring work it's absolutely utterly absorbing isn't it in that moment there is nothing on Earth that would distract you from where you are but bear in mind that it does so you have to have a really good team around you don't you and I think that's really nice the commercial support pastoral support and you know um professional support as well and then just to sort
(47:12) pick I can't quite word it but you talked about culture earlier which is the story between or is just trying to understand in culture what's going on there as well so that's something that really resonates to me Danny how about you there could be loads of things but just three I think one's around the importance of preparing the ground to make the most of the work we do we do with clients so just making sure the ground is is really set to do the the good work that we need to do I love what you said about supporting senior leaders
(47:36) being an art so I think a lot of what we do is it's not a science it's an art isn't it and really being able to flex and kind of respond and just work out what's needed in the moment and then lastly I would say there's something about curiosity I think I was struck even when you were talking about your very early career the fact that you you were so curious about kind of what's going on outside the kind of narrow role that you had and looking at how the rest of the organization was working and and
(48:00) kind of hanging on to that Curiosity I guess through all the work that we do being nausey being nosy yeah is is is a good term nosiness is good brilliant well thank you so much Martin um if anybody's watching this either they're a frustrated HR person looking at their team going oh my God what am I going to do with my team or if someone wants to follow your work what's the best way for people to reach out to you I would say go to our website which is uh ND culture.
(48:27) com and keep an eye on LinkedIn as well on on some of the blog series that come out there was a recent one on Executive facilitation that described more of the art perhaps of of what you might benefit from having real executive facilitation at that level and and reach out to any of us I I should say give thanks to the team here at NTC I wouldn't be sitting here today being able to have this conversation if it wasn't for the great team around me right so people welcome to reach out to your LinkedIn if they if
(48:53) they've like to have a conversation with you abolutely brilliant well Martin thank you so much your time we really appreciate it I hope people watching this have actually found like loads of value we've kind of start to demystify what happens in those kind of breakthrough moments in the room as well Martin goes into the collection with the rest of the brilliant portfolio of guests that we've got that have brilliant perspectives and are sharing their experience as well so um if you found this really useful we're regularly
(49:15) posting these videos at the moment and we're posting them generally providing the companies that we're working with give us permission they're going out on Mondays Google we we're working our way through them and it's also going out on audio every Friday as well so just subscribe to either Buzz Sprout and you'll be notified or to the YouTube channel as well you'll be notified whenever the next video comes out as well so thank you so much for watching thank you again Martin for your time and
(49:38) sharing and being so generous with your expertise and your insights as well so thank you you're very welcome and I have to say that what you're doing is a huge contribution to the profession so thank you for what you do thank you that means a lot Cheers byebye Cheers thank you [Music] he [Music]