Talent, Change and Organisation Development with Dr. Eerika Hedman-Phillips - OrgDev Episode 27

This week's OrgDev Podcast features Dr. Eerika Hedman-Phillips, an accomplished Organisational Development and leadership development professional with over 15 years of experience in leadership development, coaching, change management, and research. 

As the talent management lead for an international sports media company, Eerika brings a wealth of knowledge in fostering inclusive leadership and collaborative practices. Her expertise in human relationships and interaction, coupled with her dedication to creating fulfilling employee experiences, makes her insights invaluable for leaders and HR professionals. Join us as we explore her innovative approaches to organisational dynamics and the Coordinated Management of Meaning (CMM) theory, which helps navigate and enhance complex workplace interactions.

Dr. Eerika Hedman-Phillips
  / eerikahedman  

Dr. Eerika Hedman-Phillips is an accomplished Organizational Development (OD) and leadership development professional with over 15 years of experience in leadership development, coaching, change management, and research. Dr. Hedman-Phillips's core expertise lies in human relationships and interaction, fostering inclusive leadership and collaborative practices. She is dedicated to creating a fulfilling employee experience and helping individuals thrive within their organizations.

Thriving in environments where human-centric approaches are prioritized, Dr. Hedman-Phillips excels in settings where employees have the autonomy to perform at their best, embrace their unique selves, and continuously innovate, challenge norms, and be creative. With a pragmatic approach grounded in an academic background, she applies systemic thinking to her work.

Dr. Eerika holds a PhD in leadership and organization development and is a published author. Her research focused on executive-level leadership development, enhancing working relationships, and improving teamwork within senior leadership teams through team interventions and individual coaching. She recently contributed a chapter titled “Co-creating Cosmopolitan Organizations” to t

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Transcript

Transcript:
(00:00) hi and welcome to the org Dev podcast we're absolutely delighted to have Dr Erica Hedman Phillips join us today now Erica is talent management lead for an international sports media and Broadcasting Company and in a long illustrious history which has stands back 15 years she's also been group Talent capability inclusion and research lead for belron belron is an enormous company operating in 37 countries across six continents and home to around 29,000 employees who serve 15 million customers so it's a real example of scale so Erica
(00:34) is a fascinating guest and we're absolutely delighted that she's agreed to be on our podcast today so just a little bit of background about her so she's an experienced OD and leadership development professional with years of experience in leadership development coaching change and research and she's got a deep core expertise that lies in human relations interaction and really fostering inclusive ways of leading and collaborating she's really passionate about creating fulfilling employee experience and helping people thrive and
(01:03) you'll also notice of she's a Doctor by profession she's pragmatic with an academic background and apply systemic thinking in her approach now I actually met Erica when I was doing my Master's dissertation on a particular and I was applying a particular Theory called CMM the coordinated management of meaning and this is something that Erica has really specialized in as well and has actually taken on leadership roles within the CMM Institute as well she has a PHD degree in leadership and organization development and it was on a
(01:30) fascinating subject and she's research is focused on things like leadership development at the executive level improving working relationships and teamwork particularly on scene leadership and she's a published author and has contributed chapters to co-creating Cosmopolitan organizations which is a really important thing for Global organizations as well so so thank you so much for joining us Erica we're absolutely delighted to have you join us what an introduction very pleased to be here it's brilliant to have you here so Erica
(02:03) it great if you could just tell us a bit about your role what does it involve what you what do you get up to so um if I talk broadly more in sort of in talent management so what you would normally expect to see in that space so really kind of your building the capability in the business for future so you would probably see kind of your typical competencies behavioral Frameworks kind of developing them um assessing Talent review in kind of your typical kind of performance potential those kind of things as well as then leading kind of
(02:36) how we listen our organizations so developing that employee experience kind of a full full spectrum and and and journey on that and that space and obviously dni forming forming part of that I think that's probably covering most aspects of of my work but there always little things here in there that will pop up and I get involved in and it's a really interesting thing isn't it because I guess one of the things organizations often over Overlook is that they develop the strategy but they don't necessarily understand or consider
(03:04) the the capabilities that are required not only what they need to have but where they are now is is that part of your key role sort of helping identifying those capabilities yeah so we've done a big exercise of identifying kind of what's needed now and what's needed in the future so I guess that is a continuous conversation that just needs to be aligned in businesses so kind of that we don't find ourselves that oh there's a new new technology coming and we have no one in the lers who can who can do that so it's just
(03:33) kind of trying to be a bit ahead of the game but I don't necessarily know the answers so it's more of how do we facilitate those conversations and being constantly kind of checking and seeing kind of how how to anticipate but also what we do from a Learning and Development perspective for example is then also responding to some of the needs to develop those skills and how far out are you looking when you're looking at kind of long future needs oh I don't know how far you can look at these days things change so
(04:03) quickly is probably kind of immediate and then shortterm kind of three to two to three years maybe it's really hard to predict anything beyond that I find yeah I think you're right the world's changing so quickly isn't it it's you know how do we know what the world's going to look like is exactly so how do you go about doing your work like how do you go about um being sort of the talent management lead what what does that actually entail navigating lots of messy and complex things as as I'm sure you
(04:32) know so I think it's kind of different approaches so and I find having also spent kind of a good 10 years as an external consultant coming in I find their kind of external internal Dynamic is a bit different because you are fully in the system and swimming into in the culture and the patterns and the Dynamics and all of that so there is a bit of that sort of planning project management that kind of hat but then using some of the OD and consultative mindset and skills alongside and sometimes is coaching so I think it's a
(05:06) various different ways all kind of yeah different approaches that work obviously your work is sort of underpinned by certain ways things one of the things we talked about was was CMM coordinating management of me which I think I've got um a book on my shelf here which I think nearly broke me my brilliant bar it P day one of my masters that was G I got a copy of this and I was like what have I got myself into and it's it's it's it's it's an amazingly elegant Theory but it and it really shapes the way in which you see
(05:44) the world what could you just give us a bit of a brief description in terms of how it is and how it works for for Lay people that might be sort of seeing it the first time oh gosh um there's so much to unpack and I think obviously I think as a OD consultant or kind of being internal I think it's too always too dangerous to get involved and too Loft in a in a theory or a practice but I think the benefit of CMM or coordinated management of meaning is that it doesn't really fix you into it help gives you the tools to kind of see
(06:14) and perceive the world and then do something about it so in a way I see is a very practical broad kind of theory so just to give a bit of background so it's is class as a interpersonal communication Theory probably kind of the beginnings in the late' 70s early 80s and as a response to the more traditional communication model so what you may kind of recall as a transmission model of communication so kind of the assumption that if someone is speaking very clearly and someone listening listening very attentively we get a
(06:50) perfectly uh clear communication without any misunderstandings and and and so forth and we know that's not really true so it worth kind of leaning into the messiness and complexity of what actually happens between people when we come together we try to make sense of what's happening around us we bring a lot of our personal sort of different contexts our understanding of the relationships our identity and all of that into the mix of things and then we try just try to navigate it together with other people and somehow end up in
(07:22) a some form of clarity or kind of cohesive relationship so that's really kind of the basis of the the theory and helping you to explain kind of what happens in that situation but then also asking the questions like what is it that we're actually doing together that makes this thing that is this or what happens here so one of the key I would say the key uh principles is is a thing called reflexivity which I also kind of tapped on in my own research is like how do we create those reflexive patterns of communication which means that I'm
(08:00) responsible for the social cre realities that I'm part of creating so often times in in in uh organizations when you get into topics like culture and and things like that it's it's easy sort of to be in a place of helplessness and being victim of it so like I'm doing this because the culture is like that or the culture is like this or the team is like that or the boss is like that therefore I'm behaving in this way and part of that is because our behavior is situated in a system and it's kind of born in the
(08:36) system but at the same time we're part of creating the pattern so we are actually responding to something that we've been part creating and I think that's the kind of the reflexive sort of relationship in our communication that you know it's and it's looking into that and understanding that kind of relationship that how am I bringing what I'm bringing into this relationship which I'm responding honestly I that's one of the best definitions of coordinated management of me know I've
(09:05) ever heard and for a Friday afternoon when we're recording this is even more impressive as well I guess one of the things that we really like about it is the fact that it gives people a sense of agency so even when you're feeling power under and you know you're you know you're floating along with the tide of the culture you still have responsibility for how you respond to things exactly and when people invite you into being either passive or other kinds of invitations you actually have much more choice and understanding the
(09:32) implications as well yeah and I think it's broadening the perspective of you know I'm not limited by the various story there's multiple stories I'm telling about the situation whether it's from a perspective of what do I think about myself do I come from a context of you know I'm a professional or I'm a you know a family member or whatever that is that I bring into and then there's the other context of how I'm perceiving and making sense of the relationship sh and the conversation that is happening in
(10:01) front of me and then there's the kind of the common situation the context that might be somehow shared but most often not so I think it's just understanding that people come with multiple stories into a situation and some of those stories may play more more of a critical part in the way they respond to things this kind of enriching our kind of understanding I suppose from conversations human relationships and then how we might might change the story that we tell about that in order to change our own experience it's really
(10:35) interesting because um obviously a a lot of the audience here are people that are aspiring to go into organization development or design and and there's often a bit about self as instrument isn't it as understanding how you show up and and that as well and obviously this is not about me sort of showing but for me this was the tool that helped me understand self as instrument and uh the discombobulation that we all have to go through as OD Consultants this was the thing that did me wow yeah because it
(11:01) really does get you to look at the stories you tell yourself and things and particularly when you are an assistant creating change you always try to unpack what's the system stuff and what's my stuff as well and this gives you a really precise lens to look at things doesn't it yeah and I guess kind of when I was more of an external consultant it was going like what's the frame of reference I'm going into the situation so how the way I'm influencing something or intervening into a system whether
(11:29) it's a team or a bigger a wider group in an organization or an individual so it's kind of that reflective practice again like so what is it that I'm telling about it is influenced the way I'm intervening it and how did you use the model with the leaders that you work with and the teams that you work with in your organization now there's it's probably I don't like to be very Theory L yeah so I don't tend to go like this is a CMM Theory and this is how you use it so it might might be wrapped into
(12:01) subtle ways of you know how do you enhance your practice when you go into a conversation how does it look like what is your intention so it is more of a reflective questions to help leaders to reflect kind of what is it that they bring what's the what's the idea they have about leadership and how they're using it in their conversations how that idea is driving some of the work that they're doing and how conscious they are yeah cuz we often talk about leadership as a is a thing a kind of singular
(12:31) easily defined thing but pretty much everybody you talk to got their own version of it and their own their own interpretation so yeah just asking that question I guess can be really powerful and I think there is still kind of I think still a lot of the work that we do if I if I think about leadership development it's very much still a leader development Focus so and then I feel like he kind of as much as you can bring that system in and that thinking of how you influence and you work in in The Wider relationships the better
(13:00) but I'm still Keen to find different ways how you actually work with the relational Dynamics and bring the whole and work with that material because that's I found leadership develop it's very much still very traditional you start saying it's applying the power of questions to challenge people's thinking or to think about things in a slightly different way so would you say one of sort of the primary tools of someone who's practicing things like CMM is is questioning would you say I think if I
(13:25) go back to sort of the foundations of systemic thinking and all of that I think there's there's sort of principles of leading with curiosity and inquiry and and questions is very much sort of important part of being a great OD consultant or OD pra practitioner even internally so so yeah trying to live by it as much as possible but also kind of include that in the in the interventions and programs that I'm running so one question we like to ask all our podcast guests is how did you end up in this
(13:58) role what was your journey into organization development because nobody comes out of school and says that that's what I want to do yeah I did actually did you you the first gu the firstest yeah I was thinking about it and it's like there's probably part of me that actually went knowing that I want to do something in this space quite early on so and I tell everyone who I meet and like I'm a I'm a proper geek and there was this weird curiosity and uh puzzlement about humans quite early on so I was about 10 years old when I
(14:35) went to a charity job and bought like some very old psychology books to do personality assessments and on myself apply to myself but I think there was something some Curiosities quite early on uh in my life and I think probably a couple of things that I was always sort of curious so the first one's kind of understanding myself a bit more cuz is I didn't think I was the most competent of communicators I always felt there's some clunkiness in in the way I was and then the other bit was kind of understanding
(15:10) or perceiving and observing these kind of weird games happening around me when a group of girls all of a sudden was like actually we decided to be your friend today but not tomorrow and it was just kind of what's going on why why these things happen so I think that kind of let me into really un trying to understand the psychological side of things quite early on and then when it wasn't my career path by I thought always thought I would be an artist and become an art teacher or something something in that field but I had
(15:45) psychology in the back pocket all the time kind continuously and when it came the time to decide a university and what studies I will go and do there was this wonderful New Field called interpersonal Communication in my Hometown in YULA Finland and that was somehow described the mixture of understanding human interaction and how people communicate with one another and so forth and I was like this is great I'm I'm going for it um so quite early on I think I went through the whole journey was very interested in leadership interpersonal
(16:22) communication as such did the full kind of study route did my Master's um around trust in leadership and all of that so I've been kind of in that space and then when it came to leave time to leave the uni and and sort of see like what what next I I already I want to go to consulting company and do some stuff around this so and then that's when I went and started I had a comm's rooll to start with a very traditional comm's role but at least I had my leg in there through the door and I could kind of
(16:56) slowly move into Consulting role which was kind of interesting I 25 straight from uni trying to be a seriously taken consultant in organizational development which wasn't a the most um easiest of Journeys I would say and then you've done a doctorate as well so you've got your PhD how did that come about and tell us a bit more about it yeah so probably continuing from that story um as a young sort of consultant young female consultant I find there were a lot of uh expectations when you go and meet with clients and all of a sudden I
(17:29) was in in a place that well I'm working with others that have 20 plus years more experience than I have which is great because I was learning a lot it was a big learning curve but then to sell myself to potential clients it's like I can't just make up of 20 years of experience so how do I do that how do I position myself that feels credible and that's the only thing I can think of is one was using my artistic skills so I did some in kind of working that route in terms of graphic facilitation so
(18:04) forth and the second was like I'll go and get a more qualified degree in this space So at the end of the day I can maybe get some credibility uh in that sense and it's really interesting because one of the things about OD one of the crystal level deser is is elitist that there are sort of perceived barriers to entry or you know that many of the people sort of sort of are positioned as accomplished often are of an age and so how was that for you being that sort of 25y old consultant with all of the ability and you know you probably
(18:38) done just as much study if not more than a lot of your peers because you start started so young what was it and how did you find that sort of actually out in the Consulting field it was tough it wasn't the easiest because I felt I was questioned quite a lot but at the same time I got really strong support from all of my colleagues so I'm forever grateful for for the colleagues and and the kind of more experienced Consultants I ever worked with for giving me so much trust responsibility and yeah just kind
(19:10) of really appreciating valuing what I was bringing so and I think one of the key thing was that we always worked in pairs that is something that I would just say like especially as a younger member um or younger person entering this field it's is always valuable to work in partnership with someone so you can start to sort of take ownership of some of the aspect of if it's a program or you know facilitating change conversation so that at least you get the exposure and it's it's so important isn't it when you're in the room there
(19:41) is so much going on OB Dan and I co- facilitate pretty much everything don't we and you just it just helps so much doesn't it because there's you're managing process and content at the same time aren't you if you are trying to create transformational changes there sometimes can be some extraordinary things going on in the room they have to sort of notice facilitate manage whatever it is yeah absolutely and sometimes it depends kind of what role you are but sometimes taking a bit of the back seat just
(20:11) observing and kind of seeing what happens in the room was very useful because then you are in that reflective space not really taking a stage or anything to then lead the process but you had that sort of space to just observe and see going oh how they responding that and what's happening there and what's that group having a conversation about over that corner over there so you kind of observe and learning in that way very well and I think the other bit that I was was a big learning is that being very comfortable
(20:43) and becoming comfortable with just going the flow and going with their Dynamics and not really knowing what's going to happen next or that you don't need to have all of the answers you just if you just ask a question that's that's good enough um so I think that was one of the early learnings for me so when I would go and like what's the plan what's happening we do 15 minutes of this and then 20 minutes of that and you know what what are we doing and then lots of my colleagues would just like rip off
(21:10) the paper like I don't have a plan I have a bit of a mind map here but let's just go they would be working on their flip charts and sometimes just change the course of action I was just like I have no clue what's going on now and what's going next and there is no plan and and just becoming quite comfortable with that early on was very helpful for me and a big learning I would say and one thing we like to ask everybody is just we're trying to demystify OD a bit so what's a typical week look like for
(21:39) you oh gosh um let's see probably depends the work um that is a priority at that that moment but there for me there elements of you know thinking about the team and sort of like actually what is it that we need to prioritize this week so there's there's kind of element of more management of the resources that you have at hand and what's coming in the week and what's what would be important to do and accomplish this week so I think that's more of a your planning and management of that um but then it would be liasing
(22:16) with other stakeholders colleagues HR team kind of what's coming up do they need any assistance with anything you have talent reviews coming or you know things like that it would involve looking at some of the data points and so and one of the things I've just recent years learned that data is becoming more and more important um so just kind of looking at kind of what do we know about this team or this situation and if if there's a way that we can we can utilize that better so those would be some of things planning
(22:48) creating plans for a program um communication drafting some how do we want to launch it who needs to be involved how do we want to go and how do we want to invite people uh what are the right methods and mediums to do that so liasing then with our internal comms teams and um making sure that everything is kind of aligned if there any sort of further data like surveys that we've conducted is kind of pulling that together making sure that whatever we present is done in a in a you know that there's some sort of outcomes of it so
(23:25) it really varies on different or looking at our Learning and Development calendar what's coming up how we've communicated it do we have a clear portfolio so what kind of data would you be sort of looking on what might be some of the indicators that tell you about the health of a team or like what might be some of those early warning signs that you'd be watching for oh that's such a good question and I mean I probably have a bit of a weird relationship with data um because I think that there's that kind of
(23:56) relational sort of softer side of it that often gets missed um but if we kind of look at more of a hardcore numeric quantitative data um I think you would be looking at kind of how do you want to you know what's the fitness of the organization so are there like areas where there lots of levers um how is performance related to that so you would be looking at sort of performance ratings or any valuations that you can find in the system um any Talent data succession plans are there certain gaps in in different areas
(24:35) hiring you might do some of the hiring aspect of like how many roles and vacancies we have are they going to be filled soon or not does that pose any risks um and things like that and then you have all the engagement side of things so what's the feedback we're getting from the business um are there certain Pockets or themes that we can look are are there in pockets in different teams or are there some sort of consistent team themes across the across the business and how all of that kind of marries up together if it does
(25:07) so we we had a bit of a preat about this because uh and one of the things that you talked about is that's really important organizations and and as you're sort of describing your week um is the power of moments so things just kind of happen and there's an opportunity that's that lays in that moment where you could continue on your current path keep into recurring patterns or there might be new ways what's some of your thinking around that at the moment why why does that sort of resonate so strongly with you I think
(25:37) and it probably comes from a bit from the CMM background as well that when we are in in a conversation or whether it's a meeting or or yeah just in a in a conversation in general dialogue with someone they can be critical moment in term in terms of sort of describing how we go on after that and I think there's the idea that you know some com moments can be more critical so when there's an important decision to be made is kind of how we how we decide on that and then what happens after us because it's
(26:13) almost like when it's done it's done it there's an afterlife and then you manage the consequences of of whatever kind of whatever you ended up in your conversation so I think that is important just to keep in mind and especially if there are those critical stakeholders are things when you feel like actually there's something there or feel that there's something important going on here it's useful to stop there and pause and sort of like what is it that we're actually creating here and
(26:42) where we are going with it and what's the impact of that so I guess the question is always that what is it that we're creating with this decision so if we do this what's the purpose of it what is it that we're creating as a result of that and does it matter if we want to create you know more inclusive culture is this conversation helping and working towards that and in what way so I guess it's kind of trying to marry like the big and the small moments in a in a sense so what happens in the micro
(27:11) actually is reflective of what's happening in the macro and and vice versa as well yes yes and I think they're always connected and that's why I think like the change is it's not just a work with individuals or just with teams or just an organization you you kind of cut through all of the layers and have to work in multiple layers at the same time so that's why sometimes the smallest conversations can make a big impact somewhere somehow which which reminds me a little bit of your PhD so you did a a really interesting uh study
(27:44) and some of the things that stood out for me is that you work with like a senior team over a protracted period of time um you did such things as like have a 360 camera in the middle of the leadership room and you could actually sort of um video what people's responses were and what was happening in the moment can you just tell us a little bit more about this I'm sure people find it absolutely fascinating and that sort of talks to the power of moments doesn't it because you're actually coaching people
(28:06) live in the moment you would pause and go right we're doing a thing right now so it starts so kind of the my PhD kind of the premise of that was how do you facilitate competent communication because we know those senior teams in an organization so this was a team with a CEO and sort of he's closest sort of your typical kind of HR director and you know kind kind of the the roles that you would normally see in a in a team like that um so it was really kind of trying to understand and unpack the kind of the
(28:38) patterns the relationships the the way they talk to one another because ultimately they're there together making decisions and the way they talk to one another will have an impact on the quality of those decisions I think that's the that's the sort of the thinking behind it but the way it was done and and I think my premise was rather than take them offsite somewhere and train for them for competent communication for two days it was done in their actual meetings so then it felt a bit more real that they're actually doing the doing
(29:14) they're talking about the stuff that they would normally talk about like you know their business and and so forth and they would relate to one another like they would normally do in those meetings so it I felt hugely privileged to be part of that and so for nine months period I sat every month two days they had a big senior leadership team meeting and I sat there with them those two days I had a 360 camera rolling out taking record uh for two full days and then I would go and analyze it but in the meetings and in the kind of during the
(29:51) meetings I would have certain slots where I would sort of go like actually what happened here can you can you kind of explain or did you notice that and and so forth so it was kind of bringing the whole notion of working in the moment and the actual conversations and the impact of that in in the conversation as as we were working because senior leadership level when you're around the table there is so much going on isn't there so much going on and it's not even just the people around the table are because behind them sort
(30:23) of invisibly are all their teams going do not make a decision on this or do do not commit to this so it's it's a real complex interplay and language games and everything going on as well isn't it but on the surface it looks perfectly logical so that must be like I said it must be an incredibly uh incredible feeling to actually be in there and watching it and be able to help people pause what were some of the the the the breakthroughs or sort of insights that you managed to sort of tease out well I
(30:52) did um sometimes it was the pattern as well so kind of who and it sounds very structural but you know who starts first and then how it Cascades through and and they had a pattern that you know this CEO often started the meeting with a half an hour monologue about how bad things are and how bad the team is it's just changing that pattern like can you just kind of ask a question how everyone is and maybe everyone has a turn and they will equally share what's going on for them and maybe some positive notion
(31:27) about what they appreciate what's gone well in the last month and even just small change like that just meant that later in the meeting you could see much more participation from the others whereas it was very much sort of presentation mode um at least to begin with um so there were some of those kind of changes and and then it started to happen naturally and people started to sort of appreciate and kind of give good feedback on the in the moments whereas I think in the beginning you had to tease it out a little bit part of the human
(31:59) condition to to fall into patterns even if the pattern is deeply no one wants to start a meeting here at half an hour of how bad we're doing but it's our pattern and that's what we do um yeah and we have it every day in and out and I think I I find patterns very fascinating um because we can get stuck in them quite easily and sometimes we're stuck in them and we know we're stuck in them and still we can't change um because it's it's that kind of compelling for pulled into them and and
(32:31) I think at some point our brains are so the pathway has been so well walked that is hard to get away from it so so yeah I find them really fascinating what are the little things that you can start to do just to change it a little bit I was goingon to say what what advice would you give to somebody who who's conscious they're in a pattern in their workplace where would you suggest they start if they feel like they're stuck yeah well I would always probably go back to sort of what's your story about the pattern what
(32:59) are you telling yourself about the situation is there something that you can change so you know the the great saying like be the change you want to see in the world um kind of like is there something that you can start to do differently and you would respond differently so there's always that choice and doing something that is a bit different even if it feels a bit unnatural or clunky at first CU because often people's episodes start so much earlier don't they so if if two people had a conflict and it wasn't resolved to
(33:32) one person's satisfaction every single thing that that other person does from then on either feeds into that narrative that they've got about them and it just compounds doesn't it so sometimes CMM can be quite useful to storyboard and just to say so where did this all begin and unpack it that that could be quite useful can't it yeah absolutely and sometimes it is acknowledging that our response is a third response not the second so often you would mind well I had to say this because you did that but
(34:05) what they did was already a response to something else so is kind of understanding that there's a there's a Continuum there's a history and pre context to situation so you're not just responding to something you are responding to something that you've been creating and which was already a response to something that was there before um so I guess it's kind of seeing Beyond their their immediate behavior and and kind of almost trying to understand where did it come from and what happened before that made that
(34:37) thing happen now so it just kind of enriches our story of the situation and gives a bit more understanding of of why someone behaves in a in in a certain way or how they might respond to a situation on a certain way yeah it's really fascinating because we've had times where we've um done this with teams and if you look at it like sometimes when people start to see how much they because people like to simplify and say well it's their fault all their fault and don't dilute my version of this
(35:05) because it's easier to hold it this way but when you do play it back sometimes it can then release emotions of sometimes guilt sometimes a little bit shame and all that kind of stuff as well so it's a it's the skill of being able to bring that out hold it manage it and help them move on isn't it yeah yeah I think there's that kind of you you kind of framed it sort of holding the space for people to be able to explore and I would say it is exploring it's not you know judgmental in a way or assuming
(35:34) like well you did that because of XY and Z is is exploring together and I think that's also the kind of the the the nice thing about having a proper dialogue as well because it is paying attention to also what happens in the moment and both having the responsibility oneself but also understanding why people might be responding the way they are and and it's it's just a different framing in for a conversation yeah what do you enjoy most about your role and the the field you work in oh gosh um I I like
(36:11) creativity I like being in a space when you have all the options and opportunities in front of you and then you start designing and shaping something that can make a big difference so I like being in that space um so that's probably probably kind of in in in a different roles when I feel that it's a bit of a blank canvas that I can work with that's that's enjoyable for me um I've previously in some previous roles had to run certain like very set programs and I get bored very quickly um because it's
(36:46) kind of you're repeating whereas I'm a bit more like let's change that a little bit or so I like working with people in the moment where it's that flexibility and kind of you can just go with where the energy is and you have that freedom to do that rather than like oh no we need to run this section because we said it's in the program and we have a 1 hour slot of that and we have to do it so let's forget all of the conversation important things that you've just said because we have a
(37:17) program to follow so I'm probably not as good with that I I guess that's the challenge of where L & D meets OD though isn't it um yeah that's that's attention to be managed I guess isn't it what what are your I'm not going to say there's an answer because there is no answer but what are your Reflections on that um I think there's uh so because having been in L &d roles as well previously and then running courses and trainings and and sort of bite-size sessions so
(37:47) there's always a bit of a plan and a structure like you know if someone would learn something about this what would that be and what are the kind of Essentials that we would we would include um in this but then I think there's a flexibility of just rip the plan and focus what's kind of emerges in the moment and what seems to be an important conversation or a need or you know something that happens in real life and they would be much more valuable to spend time on that so I guess it's kind of that balancing act like what's the
(38:20) point of I guess that it goes back to the question like what's the purpose I'm serving so if if it's if it's sort of like if the purpose of the L&D and of course I'm I'm increasing their capability or making making them grow or develop in certain areas then you can do that in various different ways if the purpose is like I have this content which I need to go through that's a very different take which can then direct the kind of the session in different different ways yes it's a judgment call
(38:52) isn't it you kind of almost is is is the trade-off of talking about this thing now for more time yeah more important than than not talking about something else a bit later on so yeah but in the moment and what do you find most challenging so we've talked about what you love what what's the what are the most challenging bits of the work you do the most challenging that that um oh gosh there's probably I think there's always that kind of the the internal Dynamics and navigating through the
(39:21) various different things and sometimes I I like action so sometimes spending the time doing your kind of stakeholder engagement involvement um is kind of balancing that frustration some like oh why can't we just get on with this and just do it so so but that's my kind of personal drive and then trying to sort actually we need to have those conversations we need to kind of make sure everyone is aligned and you know we can then launch it more successfully um but that's probably one of the things and then sometimes looking
(39:54) very longterm in terms of you know on on a journey that we might be in in some plan two years time and having that in mind when you plan something and I think I have a personal urge always things could have happen a bit earlier um and bit quicker and and you work extensively globally particularly in in Bon as well how's that kind of sort of shaped your work because sometimes sometimes what we see in organizations is you yes it is a global organization but it has a head office and it often could become quite
(40:25) asymmetrical if in terms of like it it all flows from there and I guess so so how does your U how do you have to flex your ball to make sure that it is an inclusive environment for for for different parts of the organization yeah I think it's an interesting one especially I've gone through both when from a very decentralized module to a centralized and going through that shift as well so you have like I think the pain points with a very decentralized is like you think like you're doing this all this wonderful work but no one is
(40:57) taking it or it it happens in isolation or someone is running a great program in Germany or somewhere else but no one else is implementing it so I think that's the challenge with when you have lots of freedom and everyone can kind of choose what they want really um so I think then it's like what are the forums and practices where you can come to share learning and then see kind of what works in which environment with their more centralized it's I found it becomes more of we design the approach the the
(41:31) toolkit the frames and which is probably typical sort of Center of Excellence type of you have your team kind of uh designing all of the all of the things templates packets and so for and then handing over and off you go and you implement it and that sometimes can be quite difficult because and I find it quite difficult because then I'm not part necessarily part of the implementation journey and see kind of how is actually Landing and making sure the feedback loop then comes back so I think those those are
(42:03) some of the challenging Dynamics and one we always like to ask is what's the biggest lesson you think you've learned if you look back over your career so far what what's the biggest lesson or two that you you've learned I would probably go back to that early career that I was talking about sort of being comfortable with the not knowing and I think I'm very grateful that I had that very early on and before I got too stuck in my ways um so I think that has definitely served or been a big benefit for me uh
(42:36) throughout my career um and I think the other bit and a big learning is when I've moved from external to internal and that transition and how it looks like has been quite interesting and sort of like looking at the nuances and the differences of what it is and what it means and I think one of the the first and it it might sound a bit silly but you know it's an external it was always like when booking dates with clients and it was always like it's very simple like just put some dates in the diary and you know off we go and then
(43:09) trying to do that from an internal perspective is like oh my it takes a lot of time and effort to even get a date in a diary and it's just like is kind of it sounds very silly but it's it's those kind of things that I didn't probably appreciate being external but then learn to appreciate being internal um as well as kind of seeing more of the how things then land and continue throughout the organization and so it it's been kind of interesting to and appreciating kind of the work to different sides I would say
(43:45) it's a really interesting thing you're saying there isn't it because uh Danny and I were talking about this the other day there was a a really good podcast by the ready and they talk about traditional consultancies working with organizations and that when you're a consultant going into an organization you create this new kind of power Dynamic so you have access you get meetings and those are the massive payoffs as an Insider you get access to lots of other conversations that you don't get as an external B and as a as
(44:13) an external consultant you're creating a temporary structure to do your work and therefore when the challeng is that you you leave it's making sure that it's not relyant on you being able to work in that way and that the organization can continue to function in this effective way do do you feel that you kind of have one foot in each world now um and that that's affording you a new luxury yes I think I think probably I mean there are always challenges being internal I found sometimes external especially after
(44:39) doing my PhD was like you know rock up and you you're convincing and whatever you say is is almost taking like oh yeah yeah that's that's that's that's great whereas I get a lot more questioning I feel as an internal like okay what you know and and I think there's a credibility there so I find that Dynamic interesting that there are still people and sometimes not in my current and but also previous like when you get external speakers in it seems much more valuable um and more like oh
(45:13) we got this one and it's like sometimes well I could have talked the same thing but it doesn't land as well which is interesting well you you have to sort of say you've loosened them up so when they hear it from the external person like oh a great idea you've done the work though haven't you yeah exactly how do you invest in your own Learning and Development now what does that look like for you um I mentioned I'm a proper geek um so I always have books on the go so some have come from this podcast
(45:42) recommendations so um I have I've always a book to go I've loads in my own Library so I tend to go back to some of the classics um like in the CMM so I think kind of revisiting some of the some of of books that I've read many years ago is always valuable as well um so that's probably my main thing I try to listen to I think it's probably consuming content and ideas and thoughts at the moment which is which is kind of key part and I can sort of manage that on a day-to-day basis the one thing I am
(46:19) missing or what would be more important I want to invest more time is is being in networks and sort of being going back to my Origins being part of the OD sort of networks um meeting with people because there's always valuable things in kind of sharing practice but also kind of stimulating intellectually kind of yeah what are you doing in that world and and how you're doing it so I think that there's valuable bits in there so those probably are two things that I'm I'm thinking at the moment um and then the
(46:52) final question we we finish every conversation with is um because obviously are people that are respond in od practitioners we want to inspire the Next Generation coming through but they come from all sorts of different places and I think that's probably the the the wonderful richness of OD what advice would you give to someone who's just starting their career or just considering uh the first steps into organization development oh gosh um yeah there's so many different RS I would I I would start with a good old
(47:22) self-reflection and I think and and you know kind of the idea of the use of self and that you as an instrument what it is what is that instrument what is it that you bring and you know want to do and you know where you want to make a difference um what's your take on things those are kind of the important things I would and what's what's kind of what ticks you what what are the things that you get out of it as well and being kind of clear kind of what is the purpose of you're serving when you go into a client
(47:54) system or whether you are going internally sort of what what are the some of the things that you would want to get out of it and clarifying that for yourself I think that's that's where I would I would start the tools and techniques will come being kind of working with yourself first I think is always always important in leader in leadership it's it's a step that it's easy to miss but it's fundamental isn't it yes yes and it's a never ending I mean like I'm probably still you know
(48:22) doing a good old reflection it's it's always there and it's hard work but it's so worth it because I think the clearer you are yourself about why you're doing what you're doing and what is this thing that you are doing it's it's just easy and I I find it always saying you know there's tools and techniques but the way you use them depends on who you are and what you think what's your idea what's your belief and so forth amazing well I want to just say a huge thank you Erica from
(48:54) Danny and I we um we've been looking for this conversation it's been really really enjoyable really insightful and it's it's been really nice me because they kind of reconnected me back with CMM um just the just the rich well I'm taking away loads of things and I'm sure you are Danny as well um if I had to sort of condense it into three I guess it's kind of just going back to what you're saying about that comfortable with not knowing it's like particularly when you're getting started or feeling
(49:17) that you're in the people put you in the role of expert it's that you feel like you should know you often you just don't know and it's better to no no clue no idea but it's reassuring you can't you can't though either can you um you know no yeah no and I think there's that kind of like and and going back to the communication that whatever we do can be limiting or kind of you you create affordances and you create constraints at the same time so so I think there's that kind of dynamic and responsibility
(49:52) of like what is it I'm creating with my if I ask a question I know it will take it to a different direction and that's the responsibility of when you're doing an inquir that you do a mindful question but also knowing that by doing that I am closing some options but opening some options yeah and that's a mindset isn't it to carry with you um the other thing second thing was the power of moments just that these are wonderful bation points where you know sometimes it can take enormous amount of courage or
(50:25) bravery to actually step in and challenge that status quo and that and ask what is going on here or you know just make people be aware that they are making choices or and and that kind of lead the third one which is just being really mindful of the patterns that we're making and patterns are everywhere and that humans love patterns and so just really just taking a step back and being reflexive and things so which are the patterns that I'm participating in which ones are healthy and which ones are pathologizing as well so that's been
(50:50) fascinating for me how about how about you Danny yeah I think the things I'd add to that would be the point you made about being really clear on the frame of reference you're going into a system with um so you do that before you go into the systems you're clear on that and the import reflective pract reflexive practice I was going to pick up the point you already made about the importance of asking that question what are we creating with this decision or this decision not to do anything really understanding that and then the point of
(51:14) real dialogue is about holding space and creating space for exploration so they were the three things I'd summarize and you can hold a space whether you're 55 or 25 that's the big thing just you're holding the space aren you yes yes and there's a benefit of that as well kind of because it's also you're bringing something that is different as well so brilliant well I know that everyone who's going to watch is going to be really interested and and and I guess if people want to follow your work Erica or
(51:44) you know if they have a question C can they reach out to you of course of course I'm always happy to have a conversation brilliant and you're quite active on is LinkedIn a good place to to reach out LinkedIn is probably the best way to connect yeah I'm quite quite active there really well thank you for being so generous with your time we know you're extremely busy so thank you for giving up your Friday afternoon to talk with Danny and I have a great weekend thank you and you thank you it's been a
(52:07) pleasure thanks Erica [Music]