Facilitating Breakthrough with Adam Kahane - OrgDev Podcast Episode 26

In this week's episode of the Org Dev podcast,  our guest is Adam Kahane, a Director at Reos Partners and author of 5 books including Collaborating with the Enemy and Facilitating Breakthrough.  Adam shared insights from his extensive experience in fostering collaboration across diverse groups, the essence of transformative facilitation and the importance of the role of facilitators in removing obstacles to enable effective communication and collaboration, rather than directing or manipulating outcomes. 

Drawing from his work in over fifty countries and involvement in significant peacebuilding efforts this was another great conversation to be a part of and we hope you enjoy listening to this week's episode.

Adam Kahane
  / adam-kahane 
Twitter:   / adamkahane 

You can follow Adam here and subscribe to his newsletter:
www.adamkahane.com

Adam Kahane is a Director at Reos Partners, a global social enterprise dedicated to fostering collaboration among businesses, governments, and civil society organizations to tackle complex challenges. As a prominent architect, organizer, and facilitator of collaborative processes, Adam has extensive experience working with a diverse range of stakeholders—including executives, politicians, military leaders, civil servants, trade unionists, cabinet ministers, community activists, clergy, and artists—in over fifty countries worldwide. His work spans critical areas such as education, health, energy, food, environment, security, development, governance, and peace.

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Transcript

Transcript:
(00:00) hi and welcome to the org Dev podcast so how can you create better relationships between people and groups who have disliked each other for years how is it possible to work with people you don't agree with in these increasingly polarized times there's never been a greater need for organizations to bring people together to allow everyone to contribute and to solve our most complex problems and facilitation plays a key part in this so who better to invite then the brilliant Adam kahain To Be Our Guest today to help us explore this Adam
(00:28) is director of Rios Partners is an international social Enterprise that helps people work together to address their most important and intractable problems he's devoted a large part of his career to creating a better definition of facilitation and upgrading the capability of facilitators across the world and trying to codify some of the magic of what happens in a facilitated space he has a remarkable career that's covered 50 countries and his facilitations played a key role in the rebuilding of Nations and
(00:54) relationships after the end of aarth and the Colombian Civil War he's the author of four best-selling books including the brilliantly titled collaborating With the Enemy and this very much loved book of ours uh facilitating breakthrough Danny's got you've got your copy haven't you mine are on the Kindle yes I can't Flash not such a good show is it but the the these are books that have really resonated with us and we use regularly in our career as facilitators as well so Adam thank you so much for joining us we
(01:20) know you're incredibly busy so thank you for joining us on a Friday afternoon it's a pleasure lovely to have you with us Adam thank you so to get us started so just if people aren't familiar with the work with you and the work you do could you just tell us a bit about the work that you did and who you do it with my work and R's Partners is all in the realm of helping people work together to make progress on their most important and difficult challenges so it's in the realm of collaboration and in the realm
(01:51) of helping people collaborate we use the word facilitation for that and our particular speciality or the focus of most of our work is help help in people work together across difference including or often people who are in different organizations or sectors different companies companies governments activists Civil Society from a community or a country or a sector so that's that's our bread and butter working with people within and across organizations including people that don't agree with or like or trust each
(02:27) other fascinating brilliant and you talk about transformative facilitation so how does that differ from the kind of facilitation might people be might be more familiar with well I've been facilitating for years and um and so I've had a lot of chance to uh yeah lots of trial lots of error uh lots of learning and when I reflected on what I had experienced and what I'd seen I realized that there's two commonly used ways of facil itting um which I call vertical and horizontal and I'm using these words in a particular way it's not
(03:07) obvious so I'll explain but the easiest way to remember this is one of the odd things when you're writing a book about groups or teams is in English the word group is both a singular noun and a plural noun it's I didn't realize till I actually sat down to write it but you can say the group is you can also say the group are and and I think that's an important clue so what I call vertical facilitation you say the group is you're focused on what the group or the organization or the team is trying to do
(03:43) as a whole as a whole unit the group is trying to meet its objectives the group is struggling to to figure out how to move forward the group is Happy the group is worried um and in a way that's the most I think the the single most common kind of facilitation how can the singular the group as a singular whole do its job and so you hear in that kind of facilitation you hear people say let's leave our agendas at the door our particular agendas at the door because here we're all about the whole so that I
(04:24) call that vertical facilitation now there's another kind of facilitation which has also become more used uh in the past decades and I call it horizontal facilitation and there the focus is the opposite it's on the group R the group r divided the group R confused the group are trying to get to their objectives plural and here the focus is on what does each person want or where are they coming from or what are they're trying to do and a lot of us including me you know focus a lot on making sure every voice is heard making
(05:06) sure that everybody gets what they need to get achieve their personal or Prof professional objectives so anyhow this is a long way of coming to the answer to your question which is what I realized is that neither of those are satisfactory they both have upsides and down sides but focusing only on the group as a whole or only on the group as singular or only on the group as plural is a bad idea even though most people do only one or the other and what I'm using the word transformative facilitation not to mean in between those two but moving
(05:45) back and forth between them so that's the idea that if you want to help a group move forward in its Singularity and its plurality then what's needed is to keep tacking back and forth tacking like in a sailboat first One Direction then the you know in a sailboat I don't if you ever sailed small boats but you can't go right into the wind you've got to go One Direction then another Direction then another Direction that's how you make your way forward so I'm arguing that the way that the essence of
(06:16) facilitation the essence about moving forward in a group is to move back and forth to tack between vertical facilitation and horizontal facilitation and and that's what I call transformative facilitation and I think as you talked about sailing is you have you have to really pay attention to what's going on it's not a case of we go you know we go left and then we go right and you know requires this facilitator to be more sophisticated and kind of more agile I guess and Nimble in terms of which particular approach they're
(06:45) adopting yes well I grew up sailing small boats and that particular uh what do you call it position of sailing is the most exciting and you have to move back and forth and the key thing is the word you used d which is you have to pay attention uh you have to really be alert to what's happening uh with the wind and with the water and where your weight is if you're not paying attention at least in a small boat you can be caught off guard and literally capsize turn upside down what I argue is that the single
(07:21) most important thing is to facilit in facilitation is to be attentive to what do I need to do next given what's happening right now in the group how do I need to tack and that's the key and you use um in the book you talk about five critical questions that you need to be asking at different times and you look at them vertically and horizontally and the this the skill is basically it's kind of giving you all of the ingredients but it can you you cook them up in different ways depending on the situation is that is that a way of
(07:50) understanding it when I talk about vertical and horizontal that's a the most General description this plays out in five particular ways in facilitation working in helping groups work together to get where they're trying to go we're always dealing with these five questions how do we see our situation how do we define success how do we get from here to there how do we decide who does what and how do we understand our role and that each of these each of these five questions has a vertical move and a
(08:19) horizontal move so five time 2 is 10 there's only 10 things you need to be able to do that's a pretty small number but the but the challenge is how do I know when to make which move that's where the skill the alertness The Experience comes in so yes I provided a not a recipe but a set of 10 ingredients and the answer is put them together as is or use the one needed next that's the recipe I love that and and there's there's something else that you said which is the groups because you are kind
(08:55) of sort of it's the role of facilitator when you're working with them and and you talk about the dangers of as it phul which is a brilliant term where potentially people can tell if you're taking them in a certain way or they're trying to sort of gauge your your motives and your agenda as well so how important is it you talk about the fact that the actual role of facilitation is actually about removing obstacles to allow people to talk do you sort of see that a key factor there's two I want to
(09:22) just answer two parts to your question the first is that lots of people think facilitation is about getting people to do things about manipulating them I had a a mentor named Bill O'Brien an important person in the field of organizational development when he was CEO of Hanover Insurance because one of the first values Le companies very interesting story in Peter sen The Fifth Discipline Bill told me that everybody even the most simple person can tell if you're if you're trying to manipulate them so it doesn't work it never works
(09:57) but my experience is that when you're working with a group well when you're working with anybody but in this context a group for the first time people are watching you very carefully to try to decide what's this person really doing here and they can usually tell I often have the experience that people are watching me to see whose agenda am I aligned with did the boss tell me to do something am I am I aligned with some faction do I have my own my own agenda I tell the story about the first big facilitation I did outside of the
(10:30) organizational context back in 1991 when I first worked in South Africa with a a group of politicians and business people and activists that were thinking about the transition from aarth to democracy and one of the members of the team who I became friends with told me later Adam when we first met you we were certain we were trying to manip you were trying to manipulate us it's only when we realized you actually didn't know anything that we decided to trust you so I'm not saying that not knowing any
(11:00) is knowing nothing is the recipe but the point he was making is that we we were trying to figure out uh what your agenda was and when we realized you didn't have one other than helping us do what we were trying to do that's when we were able to trust you and relax and I was able to do my job so that's part of it but I think there's something more more profound which is that many of us um think about facilitation as getting people to do things even if it's not manipulation getting people do things
(11:34) for their own good and so when I give talks on facilitation 100% of the time somebody will ask in the question and answer period how do you get people to you know how do you get people to go along how do you get people to work together how do you get people to participate it's really a common uh mental model I I use this phrase myself often and when you're having when the facilitators are meeting in the bar their stories are often about this how did you get people to do this how did you get people to do that and
(12:10) I've come to realize it's a fundamental error and the person who taught me this uh was uh a man named Francisco daru he he he's a Colombian he's a a Jesuit priest and he's a very famous Peacemaker he he he's done he did heroic things during the Civil War in very dangerous things to get people to work together and more recently he was the president of the commission for truth reconciliation and non-repetition it's a very important body established in Colombia after the signing of the Peace
(12:46) Accords and in 2017 just after he'd uh been appointed to this role I was facilitating a a workshop uh in a region of Colombia and I was surprised to see him in the group because just been appointed to this big job I didn't know why he'd come to this uh this local meeting I I knew him and I admire him a lot and I asked him why he'd come he said he's he was interested in the methodology he thought it might help him in his new job anyhow we were facilitating this Workshop it was going quite well uh in the end of the first
(13:17) day people were working together you know a workshop of former competant and business people and philanthropists and afro Colombian people and uh indigenous people uh and NOS who have lots of things to fight about and definitely don't agree with or like or trust each other but it was going well and we were we were making progress and Francisco comes running up to me at the end of the first day he says Adam I I see what you're doing and I said well Francisco what am I doing and he said you are removing the obstacles to the expression
(13:50) of the mystery and uh this incident is what motivated or gave me the idea for the book you were holding up Garen which is um I talked to him about it for for some hours afterwards and by mystery of course he didn't mean a Agatha chrisy mystery that you can solve he meant some mystery in a Jesuit sense which it's called a mystery because it's mysterious I above my pay grade I don't can't tell you what the mystery is but I thought what was very practical in what he was saying to me is he was saying removing
(14:25) the obstacles to the expression of the mystery and I found this the more I worked on it and it became the central theme in that book is that actually what we're doing as facilitators is not getting people to do anything we can't at least I can't I can't get anybody do anything not not my not my colleagues not my subordinates not my family I mean really nobody uh and so I really think as a facilitator I have zero capacity to get anybody do anything I mean that but what I can do is I can remove the
(15:01) obstacles that are standing in the way or they're obstructing them from doing what they're trying to do and I found this a very practical orientation that now I can go through a workshop agenda or design and I can really think of every piece of it as what am I doing with the program or the room setup or the preparation or the way I'm doing my work that is a about removing obstacles and then specifically just to go one step further to um removing the obstacles to to connection contribution and Equity so that just is a double
(15:43) click on what are you removing the obstacles too um I think everybody in every group is trying to connect with others to make a contribution be recognized for making a contribution and to be treated fairly and so I think that's all you're doing in facilitation is removing the obstacles to connection contribution and Equity as you were saying that I was thinking about it's it's a lesson that many of the leaders that we work with and organizations could could take because when things get tricky and the teams aren't necessarily
(16:14) doing what they want them to do they double down on being more directive and pushing harder but if they appli that lens of removing the obstacles they might get a different outcome and they might be able to approach the the situations in a different way yeah I think um I'm not not saying being directive is never legitimate or useful but I think it has limits and directing is not the same is really not the same at all as facilitating and so if you're trying to have a group connect and contribute fairly and involve all of
(16:48) their capacities not just well all of their capacities and intelligences not just yours then yes I think the basic task is to remove the obstacles to people doing what they're capable of doing that's one of the things you really enjoy about the book is the fact you've just deconstructed as much as facilitation as you can but there's still that element of Mis you that remains isn't there there's something that unique that happens in every room the other thing you sort of say in the in the book as well is about that
(17:15) facilitation can take a day it can take a week a month or even decades how do you get that permission to keep that process going for as long as it needs because we seem to be living in a Time poor world now where there's a push for results and action as well but but creating things like connection take time don't they yeah so you used how do you get people to again so here you go I'm listening for I was trying so hard uh no I'm I'm I'm being mischievous but I'm I am pointing that this is a
(17:48) this is a deeply held model among facilitators and consultants and and bosses that that this is the our challeng is to get people do things any I won't beat that horse anymore you know some things can be done quickly and should be done quickly and some things can't again it was Bill O'Brien who used to say it takes nine months to make a baby no matter how many people you put on the job so some processes just take time you might want them to go faster but they can't and one there's that's
(18:20) true for many reasons but one of them is the one you mentioned Garen which is that um if the work requires people to connect and relax and open up and have new thoughts and relationships and actions that's something that takes time no matter how many people you put on the job I am by orientation super pragmatic my Approach is what are you trying to achieve and what does it take to achieve that my colleague uh Zed Hassan who wrote a wonderful book called The Social Labs Revolution you used to talk about the world cup problem people
(19:00) would come to him and say you know I'm trying to I'm trying to uh get a a football team uh into the World Cup uh can you help me and he'd say uh yeah I mean they they'd be talking about something equivalent to that not literally that but and he'd say well what have you what are you willing to put into it say well we've got I've got six guys and um and they can meet every second Saturday for an hour his answer is or the point of the story is you can't do it can't you can't uh win the
(19:31) world cup with six guys meeting for an hour every second Saturday just can't be done so for me the question about time is uh what are you trying to achieve and are you willing to do what's necessary to achieve that some things can be done in an hour every second Saturday and some things can't and I think the discernment is which is which uh which are we going to need a generation to do working every day for 25 years and which are the things that one person can do in half an hour and it's done and not to
(20:04) mix those two up and you've had an intensely fascinating career that's taken in sort of organizations like shell um and obviously the formation of real Partners what what has been your journey into this facilitation field well I my academic training is in a way the opposite of facilitation I studied physics at Mcgill and then energy policy at Berkeley my first job s out of University and research institutes and companies and and government agencies were all about being an expert knowing the right answer in fact how to come up
(20:41) with the right answer quickly and assert it that's sort of my thinking about my training and certainly how I was as a as a young man and when I got to Shell uh in the global planning department the scenario Department what I was taught for the first time is that at least the role of that department at that time was not to make plans for the company but to facilitate Executives and managers in different parts of the company for each part to make its own strategy and plan so I learned to become a facilitator I
(21:19) had some expertise in that because I have this background in energy policy but not much and then when I during the time I was still a shell employee I got involved in this project in South Africa I mentioned where shell lent me to this team of South African people from different organizations politicians business people trade unionists activists from left and right opposition and establishment men and women black and white and that's when I really discovered this amazing thing that even people who are very different even
(21:54) people who have literally been in violent conflict it is possible to work together and and this is was an amazing Discovery and and that's how I ended up resigning from Shell and immigrating to South Africa and marrying the project organizer and and then embarking on that kind of work that kind of facilitating multi-stakeholder collaboration full-time and that's that's what led to the founding of Rio's partners and that's that's what we do uh all of us do uh around the world and then if you look
(22:28) at the the full spectrum of the work you're involved in what what brings you most joy and how's that shifted over your career well I think probably a lot of that or a lot of the highlights have been in helping people who really who think that they need to work together they need to work together with others but they are not sure they want to or that they can that they're really torn it's the two senses of the word collaboration uh on the one handoll collaboration simply means to work together with others but it also means
(23:04) as in when you call somebody a collaborator for example in the context the second world war it's it means to betray so it has in a way two opposite meetings and I think that's important because collab all collaboration has the those two dimensions on the one hand I think I need to work with these people whether or not I like them in order to do what I'm trying to do get where I'm trying to go and on the other hand I'm not sure I want to or maybe I even think I might have to betray or give up on
(23:37) something important to me so that's for me not an unusual but a common experience of collaboration I think I need to work with these people but I'm not sure I want to or will be able to so in that context Danny uh for me the wonderful experience is when people discover they can uh which doesn't mean they completely agree with or like or trust the others but they find they can work together and gradually find areas uh where they can agree and and trust and and get along with and do things together this is a
(24:20) immensely rewarding experience and I've had that experience in very high conflict situations where the particip ANS are literally at war with each other Rios has done a lot of work in high conflict contexts but also the same Dynamics I know this will sound odd but the same Dynamics show up in organizations I know that sounds strange but in a way it's harder in organizations because that it's not as important and so you know we can go on for for years or with you know these really small or Petty or
(25:00) egotistical disputes that prevent us from getting things done and from living living a happy life in a way that's in a way it's easier in more extreme settings where people say yes I know these people are difficult but really it's important and uh so I find that that's what I find rewarding and I guess the only point I'm making is that kind of breakthrough can occur in extraordinary settings and oddly enough with greater difficulty in more ordinary settings and where would you advise people start then so if they
(25:36) are in an organization context and they've got kind of people entrenched in views or ideological differences where would you advise them to start I'm uh I'm just finishing a new book we were hoping you would do this because we're hoping going to get some spoilers because we no I'm going to give you a spoiler good uh so so the book is called the book will come out next April and it's called everyday habits for Trans forming systems and so I was writing the conclusion and dannie the conclusion is
(26:04) provides an answer to exactly the question you've asked and so the title of the conclusion is begin anywhere and I found this wonderful quote that I I'd never heard of before from the composer John Cage this avangard composer you might have heard of him and he's he wrote Somewhere he wrote some interesting books that were sort of Diaries or any know unusual books with lots of little things that he was thinking about and one of them one of them has the this sentence there's a temptation to do nothing simply because
(26:38) there's so much to do that one doesn't know where to begin begin anywhere so I don't think that in trying to transform systems or deal with situations whether it's in a nation or a community or a sector or an organization or a department that there's there's any place you always have to begin what I said in facilitating breakthrough is the key is pay attention and I now in this new book go one step further and I say the key is radical engagement so it's a kind of paying attention but paying
(27:17) attention through engaging with others what's going on here what's shifting where's there an opening what can we do next what could we try out and in in that sense it's about begin begin anywhere through engaging with others and radically here not the sense of the word extreme but the sense of the word at the root under the surface on essential matters begin anywhere engage radically you talk about the importance of seeing yourself as part of the problem sometimes it's very tempting as the facilitator for example to sort of
(27:55) see yourself as on the edge looking in um GC that as a key part you know the facilitator doesn't necessarily have to be a professional facilitator the leader can play a facilitator any members of the team can play that role can't they yeah so let me uh deal with that in reverse order because I think one is straightforward and one is quite profound so yes I'm using the word facilitator to mean anybody who helps a group collaborate and that can be a member of the group or an outsider or a coach or a boss or a professional
(28:26) facilitator can be on Zoom it can be in person it can be for 10 minutes or 10 years and what I tried to do in the book facilitating breakthrough is to offer well what I consider to be a a fresh Universal or a a new general theory and practice of facilitation in terms of these 10 moves now the question about the role of the facilitator to me is very is is crucial but not at all straightforward and the normal I think the normal way of thinking about it is that the facilitator is somebody outside who's not involved is not uh the right
(29:10) way of looking at it at all or let me say the not the most powerful way of looking at it now that doesn't mean a facilitator can never be somebody from outside the organization or the system in my work I'm almost always uh playing that role but the key the key is that if you want to really be useful then you have to be aware and conscious and take responsibility for the role that you are playing and to pretend that you're not involved is well I think it's it's irresponsible even an outside
(29:49) facilitator is is involved by by virtue of the role they're playing and the power they have and what they're doing and but it goes further than that how I guess the the short version is what Bill torbert said to me that the old expression if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem is not the most powerful formulation the most powerful formulation is if you're not part of the problem you can't be part of the solution if you can't see how what you're doing or not doing is
(30:20) contributing to things being where they are then your influence will either be very limited or simply dictatorial and so this I just Le leave it as a puzzle because it's not straightforward but a crucial puzzle for any facilitator or any human being is to ask what is my role in this situation in this system and what is my responsibility as a result of that and that's not straightforward at all but it's crucial and uh and it's the last chapter in the book facilitating breakthrough about moving back and forth between
(31:01) being an outsider and an Insider that's one of the five pairs uh and it's the first chapter in my new book and the chapter is called accepting responsibility or acting responsibly and we had a question from one of our regular viewers Julian and he wanted to ask you a question about the early days of dialogic OD at the Shambala Institute he said basically there's some important stories that haven't been heard from there I didn't know if you had any Reflections on that if that comes to mind mind so um there was a wonderful uh
(31:31) summer Institute in Halifax Nova Scotia that was called the Shambala Institute that I went to and taught at for for many years it no longer exists uh but it had a good run and uh what was unusual about the Shambala Institute is it brought together Buddhist practitioners Shambala is a a Buddhist sect and it brought those people very remarkable teachers all students of the founder of that joam truna with uh leadership and OD teachers um mostly not Buddhist including me and but there were I don't know 20 or 30 over the years there were
(32:11) 20 or 30 uh of those OD and Leadership teachers maybe somebody had a something called dialogic OD that phrase I think is associated with Jer is or I had my own module on Multi multi-stakeholder collaboration and facilitation but I think what um so I don't know the specific answer to the question but and I don't know what mysterious or what important thing happened that I wasn't aware of maybe it was in some room I was not invited into but what I do think what I took away from that 10 years was this uh speaking
(32:51) most generally this this attempt at a synthesis between you could say outer work and inner work and the the mobious strip of how working on your internal condition uh impacts what you do in the world and what happens in the world and what happens in the world influences your inner Condition it's not one or the other I certainly don't think it's true that you have to do one or the other or you have to do one first and then the other I think this is nonsense but the idea that they're interconnected is I
(33:27) think is obvious is and important and true and and important if you look back what would you say some of the biggest lessons you've learned so far are that you you'd like to share my way of learning I don't know if everybody learns this way but I think things are one way and I I act I act on the basis of what I think and uh I hit my head very hard and I fall down and I pick myself up and I wonder what happened there so all of my learning is from things not being the way I thought they were and and discovering it the hard way
(34:00) and my books are just long lists of failures I wanted to call one of those books my life is a failure what the publisher uh Nick did but it's true that but 90% of the stories in my books are of things I thought were one way and they're not and what I learned how I understand things now and I could mention many but maybe I'll just mention one line of thinking or one line of learning uh which has gone from my very first attempts to understand this field and my first book solving tough problems all the all the way to now book I
(34:36) mentioned is my sixth book uh and there is a thread through it which is that when I started off what I was most interested in or most focused on or most aware of was this coming together this people who were separated coming together and working together and that's the essence of multi-stakeholder work that's the essence of all facilitations people who are separate come together and do something together and that's the it's simplistic level that's the essence of work in South Africa apartheid the
(35:09) word apartheid in afans just means apartness that what was going on in those workshops is overcoming apartness and the word I use for that drive which I think is crucial is the word love and I'm using the word love in a very particular sense used by the Theologian Paul tiik who say love is the drive the drive to unify the separated so I used to think that was the big thing and my first book was really I look back on it about that about how to unify the separated and that that's and when you asked me what were my big experiences
(35:46) half an hour ago that's what I said it's that that Joy of finding we thought we were separate and we're we we find that we can connect or maybe that in some sense we're we're part of the same hole I now think that's only part of the story and in particular um I think there's another part of this which I call power tiik says power is the drive of everything living to realize itself with increasing intensity and extensity and I've written a lot about this tension between power and love all based
(36:19) on a a sentence of Martin Luther King Junior when he said power without love is reckless and abusive that's why a lot of us got into facilitation we we're aware of how people just asserting what they want and trying to grow and get their job done is reckless and abusive but King went on to say and love without power is sentimental and anemic and this is what I see in our field big danger of focusing only on connection and unity is sentimental and anemic actually sentimental anemic at best and worse cynically reproducing the status quo so
(36:55) I wrote a book about that it's called power and love it's about the the polarity the permanent tension between power and love it's related to the difference between it's closely maps on to vertical and horizontal just to take it one step further I now think there's a third part of this which I've written about partly in the book facilitating breakthrough but I'm continuing to work on it's not clear it's power and love and Justice which has to do with the nature of the relationship between
(37:25) people and whether it's seen as Fair I'm gradually learning my way in by bumping my head uh into how do you work with these three I would call Universal human drive and I think just to come to the punchline that's really the core of facilitation and the core of OD if OD is about helping groups and organizations then I think paying attention to these fundamental human drives the drive to power the drive to love the drive to Justice contribution connection Equity this is as close to the Bedrock as as
(38:02) I've been able to get underneath there is just mystery really powerful way to to describe it and and I guess what's really nice about your books is the refreshing honesty about your journey as well that that's what one of the things that makes the book so engaging we always ask this every guest the same question at the end which is what advice would you give someone who's considering starting a career and facilitation like they're either considering it or they they're seeing an opportunity to to
(38:26) begin it what what would you recommend for them well begin anywhere I think that's the most important thing there's you don't have to wait to have a career as a facilitator to be hired as a facilitator you can start working with uh yeah with any group in your family or Community or organization to help people collaborate that's that's what it is so when I said everything I've learned has been through trial and error I don't think there's any shortcut to just begin anywhere go everywhere get experience
(39:01) under your belt there's so many things to take away from the conversation and thank you so much Adam for your your time I guess Danny for what what are your takeaways from the conversation so many things but I think paying attention the most important thing that facilitated to can do so kind of holding on to that and just paying attention in the moment removing the obstacles I think I I really like that and that we could apply that to so many lessons and then I think the last thing you said about learning your way in by bumping
(39:25) your head you know do your thing bump your head learn from it recalibrate adjust do it differently and then learn it again so they would be the three things for me right yeah say say for me um I love the bit about seeing yourself as part of the B and the importance of that and the fact that Adam mischievously caught me out that you can't get people to do things well maybe you can maybe you I don't know also the cation has two meanings you know and just just the importance of it and it doesn't have to be harmonious
(39:55) you know you can have people that do you know when they find out they can talk they don't agree but you have to find a way as well um if people want to follow your work obviously you got this um fantastic book coming out everyday habits for transforming systems how can people follow work and keep up to date with all your latest thinking you can uh subscribe to the newsletter at Rios Partners reos partners.
(40:16) com I guess you can put in the show notes I'm on Twitter LinkedIn and I I write I I post a lot about my thinking and questions and stuff I'm wrestling with with and so happy to engage with people on those in those three ways thanks very much thank you so much Adam really appreciate thanks for your time thanks Adam okay cheers [Music]