Equipping Managers to Create Culture Change with Nate Price Whittle, KPMG - OrgDev Episode 18

Our latest episode of the OrgDev podcast is with the brilliant Nate Price Whittle. Nate is a leader with a remarkable track record of driving culture change. As someone who has spearheaded transformative initiatives in one of the largest healthcare systems globally, Nate offers invaluable insights into how to equip managers to lead culture change effectively. 

We had lots of fun chatting with Nate delving into his journey, from his impactful work in the NHS to his new role at KPMG, where he continues to drive meaningful change and empower leaders to create thriving organisational cultures.  He shared so many great insights and we'd love to hear what you think of the episode.

💼 About our Guest

Nate Price Whittle
Associate Director - Workforce Practice, People Consulting, KPMG
  / nate-p-ab707735 

Nate has 17 years in the people profession, excelling in HR leadership with a focus on culture and organizational development. His credentials include a Distinction in Masters of Occupational Psychology accredited by the British Psychological Society and the Association of Business Psychologists. Currently pursuing a doctorate at Birkbeck, University of London, Nate is enrolled in the pioneering Professional Doctorate in Evidence Based Human Resource Management. Notably, he champions positive LGBTQ+ experiences, having served as Deputy Director of People and Culture at Europe's largest Pride event, Pride in London, and now contributing to the KPMG UK LGBT+ Network Exec Team.

Thanks for listening!

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Our professional and highly skilled consultants focus on delivering engaging, results-focused and flexible solutions that help our clients achieve their business objectives.

Find out more at https://distinction.live/how-we-can-help/

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Transcript

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Hi and welcome to the Aug Dev podcast. We're really delighted

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to have Nate price Whittle join us today. Nate is associate director

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of the workforce practice in the people consulting area of KPMG.

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Nate has had a really successful career to date that's had the NHS

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at the heart of it throughout. So prior to being at KPMG,

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Nate was at King's College Hospital NHS Foundation Trust and he was deputy

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director of workforce and director of OD.

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Now, I first met Nate when he was head of organisational development and

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wellbeing at Imperial College, and I think he was probably one of the

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most busiest people I knew at the time. He had five portfolios of is it

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leadership, engagement, od recognition and wellbeing.

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So he's had a really interesting career

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and it's just been constantly about making significant and meaningful change in

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the organizations in which he works. He also is

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studying somehow for a doctorate in evidence based

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practice at Burkbeck College, and prior to that he had an MSc in

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business and occupational psychology as well. So in amongst all that incredibly

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busy career relaxation, if he calls relaxation, he has a volunteering

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role as deputy people and culture director for Pride in London,

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which is such an important event and is getting more and more important

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as time goes by. And last year he trained over 200 people on

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the day, volunteers for Pride Day to make sure it worked well and it

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was safe. And if that wasn't enough, there's so

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much stuff in here and there's so much stuff that's going to come out during

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a conversation. He's also recently added a new addition to

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his family with a new puppy called Oriel, which we're told may make an

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appearance to our conversation today. Is that right, Nate? He may

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do. He's by my feet at the moment, asleep, but I can't guarantee I'll have

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that for the full length of time. So if he does make an appearance,

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I'll bring him on screen. It'll be our first episode, it'll be the standout,

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it'll be the highlight of the episode. I promise he'll have

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an agent by the time he's finished.

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Well, welcome and thank you so much for joining us. No, thank you for having

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me.

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Welcome, Nate. It's lovely to have you with us. Like, this is your life at

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the beginning, isn't it? Do you know, people say it does feel a bit like

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that when they do these podcasts of reliving their careers.

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But we went easy. There's a few things we've edited

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out, like it's just the phenomenal

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amount of output that you do is quite something. And we want to understand a

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little bit more about how you manage it, don't we, Danny? We do, yeah.

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So just to kick us off, just start with an easy one. Just tell us

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a bit about your role. What does your role involve? I'm at KPMG and

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I've been at KPMG now for coming up to a year. It's absolutely flown

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past and made the leap out of being in an in

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kind of service role, internal role in an organization

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into consulting. So I now have the

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real privilege of working with a bunch of kind of

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very inspiring people, some who have

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been at KPMG for quite a while and others who have had

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a health and industry background to kind of work with clients

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in really meaningful ways, particularly around the people agenda.

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Be that some of the harder end things relating to workforce

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around kind of pay and terms and conditions and

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design, through to culture, well being,

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organizational development and all the whole span of the kind of the people profession

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and what you'd expect from a workforce practice. So very lucky to

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kind of work with a range of different clients and

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yeah, kind of really do interesting,

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meaningful work to help support organizations with

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their needs relating to workforce and people agenda. So really,

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really enjoying it. It's been a really interesting transition, as you'd expect.

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But yeah, lots of really great things that we get to do,

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which is really exciting, brilliant. And are your clients healthcare or kind of

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a mix of sectors? The bulk are within healthcare,

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which has been a kind of lovely home away from home to kind of

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continue working and supporting healthcare organisations in

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the NHS in particular, but also a couple of other parts

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of different sectors, including finance, other government bodies.

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So a kind of nice mix, but in the main, still very

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much part of the health family, really. So, yeah,

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mostly health. And you talked about that transition from kind of

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working in the NHS to now being at KPMG. How's that been for you?

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What have been the biggest kind of insights or challenges?

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You know, we've had this thing in the

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NHS where you can never find a spoon to kind of stir

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your drink, kind of using the end of a pen or something to kind of

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stir your drink, and you can't ever find any of those things. So one of

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the things that has been the biggest change in going to something like KPMG

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is these big corporate offices where you've kind of got, you know, your tea

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and your coffee and all those sorts of things that you just don't get when

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you're working in a hospital where you're just trying to find, you know, somewhere to

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have a drink, somewhere to, you know, to do that. And that

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actually has been quite a big transition to move from victorian

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hospital building. Aircon is another

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thing that exists, windows that don't open properly, and all of

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those things into moving to kind of quite a different canary wharf

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last building environment. It's been quite odd to not

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be in a hospital and not be around patients in that context.

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There are lots of lovely things that come with moving in

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that way. But the biggest thing that surprised me is

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actually how culturally aligned,

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I would say the team in particular at KPMG are with

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the NHS and with our health clients. That has been

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much less of a shock than I'd expected. So KPMG

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talks a lot about its values and I think when I first joined,

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I probably thought it was probably lip service or perhaps it's not

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really stuck up on the wall and all those sorts of things,

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but actually it's taken very, very seriously and

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there's lots of really important discussions that are happening around our values

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at KPMG, which is what I experienced working in the NHS. And that kind

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of desire to want to do work that matters,

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to do work that supports people, has been

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much less of kind of cultural shock than I'd expected, and people just being really

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generous with their time and supportive and onboarding you and all of that stuff.

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So I think the NHS, if you've been in

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it for a long time, stays with you. If you probably

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cut me in half, you probably still see the NHS running through me a stick

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of rock. But I think the transition from

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a kind of culture and ways working perspective has been kind of much

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softer and, yeah, much, much more supportive than perhaps

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I'd expected. Going into consulting originally, how has it been

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sort of switching from owning the internal change agenda

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to actually supporting the organizations, actually achieving the agenda? How has that

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been in terms of a transition? I think it's

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really opened my eyes to the importance of kind of objectivity

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and the importance of kind of how you work really well with stakeholders

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to kind of navigate those difficult situations or those complex situations

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you find yourself in. I think it's very easy when you're internal

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to think, I've got kind of this one way of doing this or

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my way of doing it. And actually you get to really

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generate new ways of thinking and doing things by putting in lots of

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different voices to kind of navigate those changes. And that's certainly something

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that going. If I was to make the shift back into an internal role

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that I would certainly be much more considered and considerate

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around the kind of the stakeholder engagement piece and making sure that we've got lots

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of voices around dealing with change, dealing with

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difficult issues in the work environment. So that's

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certainly been one of the key things that I've noticed for

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sure. That's fascinating. Yeah, we're going to ask you a lot more questions about that.

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And I guess just for everyone that's watching today, obviously we've just touched upon your

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career highlights. But what has been the thread that's been

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through your journey into OD or has been a thread? Is it just like sort

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of lots of interesting opportunities? So I

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think this is where I've had certainly some influential people

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who have kind of really led me

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into the world of OD, having seen the work that they do and just being

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truly inspired by it. So, you know, started out a

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kind of generalist HR role as one of those odd people that went

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to university thinking, I'd like to do HR, which I don't think many

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people, many people do,

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and thought I'm probably really into originally some of the recruitment

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side of things, employer funding side of things, and then did a bit of time

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in employee relations and then sort of found this thing

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sort of over there that was OD, where people were

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kind of really wanting to make improvements to the experience

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of staff in the organization, how things worked, improvements through

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people. And I met some really great heads of OD

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in the NHS, and there was a national

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network there still is in the NHS called Doodle.

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I remember in 2013, going to their first conference and just thinking,

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oh, this is, I think, what I want to do with the rest of my

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career. I want to be in this space of really

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making sure that we are creating great environments for people to work in and

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also making sure that across all the spectrum of HR, we've all got a role

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to play in that. And I suppose I'm a believer that in

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the people profession, I suppose I tend to use that terminology.

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HR, Nid, I think should go hand in hand.

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They're all parts of how we make the besties of our people,

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support our people, to be really effective in our organizations.

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So it kind of saw it over there and I think it needs

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to come much more closely with the wider kind

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of workforce remits and portfolio.

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So I think I've been very lucky to have some really

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good mentors who also, I think,

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in OD play a really important role just to help you

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navigate some of the language, the terminology that's used. I remember

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starting not really understanding this kind of magical

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thing that seemed to be OD, kind of what was it that people were doing?

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What were the tools they were using, the approaches they were using, what is diagnostic

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dialogic and all of those sorts of terminology that I was just thinking, this is

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like magical dark hearts, but breaking that down and just

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ultimately a really great definition that a friend uses.

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OD is business improvement through people.

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That's it ultimately. And you're looking at ways to help organizations be

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better through their people. So I think mentorship has been

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one of the key things that's helped me kind of enter and navigate

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a career in OD. Wow. God, I wish

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I'd met you when I was coming through with OD, because it's true. It feels

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like sometimes one of the drivers behind this podcast is to sort

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of unveil the black box that is OD. And it's actually,

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it's beautifully elegant and simple in terms of what it's trying to do.

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But there's just like this whole world of glossary of language,

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isn't there? Yeah. So how did you actually go find your mentors? Like,

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what was the, or did you, were these formal mentoring relationships that you had

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or just people that you sort of were drawn to and wanted to work alongside?

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I think people that, yeah, absolutely was drawn to

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kind of a really clear around their, the passion

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and the commitment that they had for working with people,

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supporting people, and also just being really attuned

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to what was going on in the organization. And I think that's always so

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important to kind of have a really good understanding of what

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the strategic priorities of the organization are and how

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do we, through people, help those things to be delivered.

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And so actually felt that really important balance of being

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about people, but also equally about the organization and support

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of making sure the organization is successful. And that sort of balance between

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the hard and soft sides of all of those things.

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And I don't think, actually reflecting upon it, that I've probably told those individuals

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how kind of influential they were in my career,

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which is actually something that just off this podcast

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I will certainly go and do and tell those people the impact that they had,

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because I don't think that I've ever kind of, I've told them

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that or really reflected that back to them and I see them still continuing

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to do that and still be really inspiring in the work that they do and

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always wanting to, despite the

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challenges that might come working in the NHS, be that kind of funding,

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political change, patient need a pandemic

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always wanting to strive to do things in

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a better way for staff and for patients. Yeah,

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that's something that I. That kind of recognition and thanks to those individuals is

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something that, yeah, I need to. Need to go and

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do. Brilliant. So you, you were in HR,

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then you kind of sort of got immersed in the world and dood

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the work. Is it Karen domain and Paul Taylor?

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Remarkable work, and that's still going strong today.

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How did you sort of make that transition into OD? What was your sort of

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first roles and how did you sort of cut your teeth on OD projects?

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Yeah, so I went for a role that

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was a fixed term contract as a kind of,

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sort of leadership and od consultant. I remember

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when I sort of saw that word consultant thinking,

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what am I consulting on? I haven't got. I don't. Who am

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I to be consulting people on anything? And I sort of realized at that point

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that actually a lot of what I was then doing was kind of convening

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spaces for people to kind of talk about and develop ideas

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together. And that's kind of, you know, what kind of got me really interested in

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that kind of consulting space. So one of the first things I was doing for

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the Kent, Surrey and Sussex region in the NHS was setting up an

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OD network to actually bring OD practitioners together to

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kind of share ideas, support each other. It can be quite lonely, particularly if you

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are the one OD person in an organization or you've got

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OD in your job title, but no sort of resource to deliver an

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OD function. No, no, indeed. Absolutely,

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absolutely. Bringing those people together to

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share ideas, to collaborate. Where you've got individuals that are perhaps skilled in a

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particular intervention, how can they be deployed to help support people in

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other organizations? And I just remember being surrounded by

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these individuals thinking, oh, God, these are all really great

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and talented and experienced individuals. What am I doing

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here? Well, actually, what I was doing was creating a space to

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help that kind of happen and that sharing of information.

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And I think that's kind of where I got really into kind

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of networks and communities of practice and the kind

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of impacts and support that, that they can bring.

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Coaching then, you know, became something that was,

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I could see the benefits in others of coaching. And I was very lucky

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to be supported to do a coaching qualification earlier

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on in my career. And it's really interesting as part of that process,

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had to coach. When you're doing your kind of practice,

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coaching a chair of an organization

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and feeling quite intimidated by that.

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And at the end of the process, I sort of opened up and said,

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oh, I was really nervous coaching you, thinking, oh, he's going to think,

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who's this guy that's doing this with me? And she said, it's really interesting

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that you say that. How do you think that makes me feel as

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a chair of an organization? Being told that just by being the chair of an

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organization, that's quite intimidating and people are nervous about

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that and people don't know how to approach me. And actually,

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she sort of reflects that. She hadn't really considered that just that sort

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of status automatically creates a kind of barrier to how open people

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would be with her, how they might communicate with her. But then also

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she said, just, I'm just, you know, I'm a human being. I'm a human being

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doing a role. I'm a nice person and I want to, you know,

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talk to people and speak openly with people. So it was a really interesting moment

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where I thought about some of the pressures that perhaps leaders face,

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some of the things that, the barriers that they face and kind of being open

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and visible and what does that all look like while also coming over

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your own kind of impostor syndrome of supporting

16:15.282 --> 16:18.810
individuals who are far more experienced and far more senior than

16:18.842 --> 16:22.730
you are? Yeah. Some of those initial things, particularly around leadership, particularly around

16:22.762 --> 16:26.174
coaching, particularly around communities of practice, is kind of where I started

16:26.634 --> 16:29.974
in the world of OD. And I think,

16:30.914 --> 16:34.522
on reflection, I probably didn't realize at the time that in some of those

16:34.578 --> 16:38.386
more other parts of the workforce portfolio I was

16:38.410 --> 16:42.098
in, perhaps around business partnering and within employee relations, I hadn't

16:42.146 --> 16:46.266
realized actually, that they're all aspects of OD, you know, getting our

16:46.370 --> 16:49.506
kind of policies and processes and practices right and boarding people in the right

16:49.530 --> 16:53.266
way is all part of a kind of OD spectrum

16:53.290 --> 16:56.474
or continuum. Sorry, both those words are quite cringe. But you know what I mean,

16:56.554 --> 17:00.258
kind of that sort of remit of OD, and I

17:00.266 --> 17:03.642
probably hadn't realized it at first. I don't think many people realize that they

17:03.658 --> 17:07.266
probably are doing OD in a range of different ways. It's just perhaps

17:07.330 --> 17:10.754
not in a kind of formal kind of OD bracket, really.

17:10.874 --> 17:14.480
So, yeah, that's kind of how I moved into it. Brilliant.

17:14.672 --> 17:18.280
And then you've sort of taken on more and more leadership

17:18.312 --> 17:22.360
roles within OD as well. What was your first leadership role

17:22.512 --> 17:25.632
and how did you get. We're always interested about how people get started. Like when

17:25.648 --> 17:28.952
you move into a role, how do you begin, how do you contract, how do

17:28.968 --> 17:32.564
you understand what the task is and how do you engage with

17:33.624 --> 17:37.488
your stakeholders or your clients. My first transition into

17:37.536 --> 17:40.970
a kind of leadership role was when I joined

17:41.162 --> 17:44.734
an NHS organization that

17:45.474 --> 17:49.290
was going through a lot of kind of difficult change and shift.

17:49.362 --> 17:53.250
And it was a kind of head of learning and development role,

17:53.322 --> 17:57.226
having been, I guess, a standalone practitioner to going into managing a

17:57.250 --> 18:01.210
team. And I won't sugarcoat

18:01.242 --> 18:04.530
it, it was hard, really hard.

18:04.602 --> 18:08.466
And on my first day, it was not a typical first

18:08.530 --> 18:12.310
day, but arrived in the organization and there was

18:12.342 --> 18:15.782
sort of no one there to kind of greet me. I sort

18:15.798 --> 18:18.262
of knew roughly where I was going to be working, where my office was.

18:18.358 --> 18:21.182
And it turns out all this build up, all this, oh my God, what's it

18:21.198 --> 18:24.874
going to be like? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And on other day,

18:26.294 --> 18:29.358
a member of the team, sadly, had been taken very unwell and was actually in

18:29.366 --> 18:32.526
the hospital as a patient. So people were, as you can imagine, quite rightly dealing

18:32.550 --> 18:36.318
with all of that. And then 11:00 in

18:36.326 --> 18:40.078
the morning that my boss came in and said,

18:40.126 --> 18:43.542
oh, now you're here. I should probably let you know that

18:43.678 --> 18:46.742
I'm retiring and actually I'm going to be leaving at the end of the week.

18:46.798 --> 18:49.074
I just kind of had to stay on until you were here.

18:50.334 --> 18:55.030
And so I was, and I was relatively

18:55.062 --> 18:59.054
young at the time. I think I was 26 or 27 kind of

18:59.174 --> 19:02.714
now heading up an important function in an organization

19:03.094 --> 19:06.630
with sort of no real senior leadership support, a team that was

19:06.702 --> 19:10.278
going through quite a difficult time. And I do remember looking out

19:10.286 --> 19:12.794
the window on the Friday of my first week thinking,

19:13.374 --> 19:16.274
oh, what have I done? What have I done?

19:16.694 --> 19:18.714
I've not made the right decision here.

19:19.294 --> 19:22.782
And ultimately, what I kind of

19:22.918 --> 19:26.534
started to do then was just meet with all of the

19:26.574 --> 19:29.638
team individually and just start to understand the background,

19:29.686 --> 19:32.662
the history. There's a lot they felt they needed to tell me, a lot of

19:32.678 --> 19:35.686
kind of historical stuff that they needed to kind of get off their chest and

19:35.750 --> 19:39.152
talk to me about that. And I kind of really wanted to make space for

19:39.168 --> 19:41.824
that. There've been a lot of kind of churn and managers that hadn't been around

19:41.864 --> 19:45.000
for a while and just thinking, okay, I think a big

19:45.032 --> 19:49.000
part of my role here is actually not about doing the technical work

19:49.112 --> 19:52.064
of, you know, what we need to do as an organization, learning and development.

19:52.144 --> 19:55.560
It made me realize very quickly that actually the

19:55.592 --> 19:58.832
head of bit of my role is probably more important. I've got

19:58.848 --> 20:02.324
a team that I now need to support to manage,

20:03.344 --> 20:07.124
to help me deliver the work that we need to do as an organization.

20:07.784 --> 20:11.152
And my priorities changed from being okay, what we need

20:11.168 --> 20:14.072
to do in the first 100 days is sort out induction. We need to make

20:14.088 --> 20:17.552
sure that our stat man training is we're all compliant with what we

20:17.568 --> 20:20.896
need to do. We need to do a learning needs analysis for the organization.

20:21.080 --> 20:24.136
First thing I need to do is just understand the roles and remits of the

20:24.160 --> 20:27.472
team that I've got. What support do they need

20:27.608 --> 20:31.248
so that we can be effective? And how do I blend those two together?

20:31.336 --> 20:33.872
Because there was a lot of work that we needed to do in the team

20:33.968 --> 20:37.504
while making sure the team could function. And I think I sort of

20:37.544 --> 20:41.048
realized then that you're sort of then having

20:41.096 --> 20:45.032
to do OD within your own kind of

20:45.128 --> 20:48.968
team, really, and it helps support them and navigate them through the

20:49.056 --> 20:52.872
significant change that we're going to be going through. So I think I realized

20:52.928 --> 20:56.256
quite quickly that when you're in a leadership role, both in a sort

20:56.280 --> 20:59.336
of as a subject matter expert or in a team that's

20:59.360 --> 21:03.128
got a particular, actually, as much of it is clearly just

21:03.176 --> 21:05.990
about how you are as a leader and how you act in that role,

21:06.022 --> 21:09.526
as well as the kind of the technical competence that you've got in the profession

21:09.550 --> 21:13.710
that you're in. And learning that quite quickly, I think was

21:13.742 --> 21:17.902
really important and helped me, I think, be a much more effective manager

21:18.078 --> 21:21.670
and leader as a result of that. And also, I think, equipped me

21:21.702 --> 21:24.838
really well for joining new organizations and just

21:24.886 --> 21:28.606
thinking, okay, so what are some of the things that can go wrong quite quickly?

21:28.630 --> 21:31.230
What are some of the issues that you face and how do you deal with

21:31.262 --> 21:34.958
that in a way that's sort of resilient but prepares you for

21:35.126 --> 21:38.590
where things, things don't go as smoothly as you might hope

21:38.622 --> 21:42.366
they might do going into the role. It's fascinating.

21:42.470 --> 21:45.054
And you're kind of touching on something which is a bit of an endemic issue

21:45.094 --> 21:48.622
within organizations, which is subject matter expert that find themselves

21:48.678 --> 21:52.398
in management roles. And it sounds like in that moment you're almost

21:52.446 --> 21:55.902
acting intuitively, which is like no one's said you need

21:55.918 --> 21:59.454
to triage the team. You could have easily got focused on the 100

21:59.494 --> 22:02.602
day commitment you've made to actually get the role. But a lot

22:02.618 --> 22:05.866
of subject matter experts, they don't know what to do.

22:05.970 --> 22:09.194
And it therefore compounds the issue almost, isn't it?

22:09.354 --> 22:13.134
Organizations sometimes don't support their managers enough, do they?

22:13.954 --> 22:17.402
I mean, you're absolutely, you're absolutely right. And I

22:17.418 --> 22:20.842
think that probably made me realize, and I suppose a lot of

22:20.978 --> 22:24.570
work that I've gone on to do since in organizations has really been about

22:24.722 --> 22:28.266
championing and supporting the line manager who fundamentally sits in

22:28.290 --> 22:31.504
this often incredibly difficult position,

22:31.624 --> 22:35.164
navigating what's below them and what's above them and how all of that comes together.

22:35.704 --> 22:39.312
And actually, I just remember sitting in my office, door closed, thinking,

22:39.488 --> 22:42.272
I don't know how I'm going to do this, and actually there will be loads

22:42.288 --> 22:45.616
of managers thinking about that and what support are we

22:45.640 --> 22:49.384
giving them and how are we equipping them to do that and manage

22:49.424 --> 22:52.880
that effectively? Yeah, I totally hit on something there

22:52.912 --> 22:56.080
and certainly makes me think about those sort of lonely moments where you're

22:56.112 --> 22:59.494
thinking, I feel very much on my own here,

23:00.474 --> 23:03.322
where can I get support? And how can I be honest? I've just joined a

23:03.338 --> 23:06.614
new organization and I'm struggling.

23:07.194 --> 23:10.682
How can I be honest about that without people thinking, oh, God, that was a

23:10.698 --> 23:14.306
mishire, wasn't it? And this isn't going to work out very well, and sort of

23:14.330 --> 23:17.850
having to kind of, yeah, put a face on that when you're

23:17.922 --> 23:21.178
really thinking. I was going to say, there's a huge amount of pressure, isn't it,

23:21.186 --> 23:23.522
when you start a new role that, you know, you feel like you need to

23:23.538 --> 23:27.226
prove yourself? Yeah. So, yeah, really, really challenging.

23:27.410 --> 23:30.694
Yeah. We had Doctor Hayley Lewis on last week,

23:31.234 --> 23:35.122
you'll know her through Birkbeck, and she was talking very

23:35.138 --> 23:38.894
gravely about her own experiences, wasn't she? Being in that bunker moment when

23:39.434 --> 23:42.522
it feels like the world is closing in and how do you

23:42.578 --> 23:46.210
get that support through it as well? And how you need your

23:46.242 --> 23:50.114
support network. It's not just you alone, isn't it? And that support network is

23:50.194 --> 23:53.026
not necessarily a team and it's not necessarily a line manager. It's a whole group

23:53.050 --> 23:56.316
of people to pull you through it, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely.

23:56.460 --> 23:59.660
And I think in that scenario,

23:59.692 --> 24:03.076
I was lucky to have a new manager that

24:03.100 --> 24:07.852
came in who certainly was a

24:07.868 --> 24:11.556
very supportive individual, but also just, we played

24:11.620 --> 24:14.924
together on our skill sets of her helping to kind of

24:14.964 --> 24:18.644
manage the political pressure in the organization around the work that we needed to do

24:18.684 --> 24:22.448
while we got things on track and got things moving,

24:22.636 --> 24:25.848
so that at least we're sort of combining our efforts

24:25.896 --> 24:29.304
in managing both what the organization needs, what the team needs, and how we navigate

24:29.344 --> 24:33.288
that to get to a really positive outcome, which we did,

24:33.416 --> 24:36.144
which was, I look back at that experience now,

24:36.184 --> 24:40.044
and for all of the times, it was very challenging.

24:40.944 --> 24:44.232
It was really foundational in terms of the experience that I had

24:44.248 --> 24:47.896
of both being a manager and also working in an organization and supporting them

24:47.920 --> 24:51.390
through their OD challenges. Now, we decided

24:51.422 --> 24:55.110
that we wanted to have you as a guest on ages and ages ago,

24:55.302 --> 24:58.670
just thinking the right moment. And one of those moments is because you started

24:58.702 --> 25:02.398
at King's College Hospital and you could almost sort of

25:02.446 --> 25:06.126
see how you were sort of setting a

25:06.150 --> 25:09.982
strategy to do the things that you needed to do to build the fundamentals,

25:10.158 --> 25:13.634
to sort of build the capability in the organization to move it forward.

25:14.054 --> 25:17.382
How is that sort of starting there? Because it's for those people that don't know

25:17.398 --> 25:20.966
what, you know, what is the sort of size and scale of King's College hospital?

25:21.150 --> 25:25.182
Yeah. Yeah. So King's is a 1 billion pound turnover

25:25.238 --> 25:29.454
organization. It's 14,000 staff across

25:29.574 --> 25:33.246
five major hospitals in south central London.

25:33.310 --> 25:36.606
So, you know, it's funny when

25:36.630 --> 25:40.734
you sort of see people talk about, you know, jobs outside of the NHS,

25:40.774 --> 25:44.326
they talk about, you know, complexity that that's pretty complex. And to

25:44.350 --> 25:48.534
navigate an OD and learning kind of offer and team across

25:48.574 --> 25:52.546
an organization that is, has been in difficult

25:52.610 --> 25:56.534
financial special measures from a regulatory perspective,

25:57.754 --> 26:01.850
has been difficulty at times, and staff survey results that are not

26:02.002 --> 26:06.002
always glowing in all areas. To navigate that

26:06.178 --> 26:09.574
and to kind of think about how we respond to that

26:10.194 --> 26:13.946
is not straightforward. I was very lucky to have a chief people officer that

26:13.970 --> 26:17.614
gave me a lot of kind of autonomy

26:17.654 --> 26:21.110
and freedom to kind of, you know, think that through and navigate that.

26:21.142 --> 26:24.934
And one thing that was immediately clear was that we were just not doing enough

26:24.974 --> 26:28.606
of a good job in articulating what we were doing in the organization,

26:28.710 --> 26:31.950
because actually there's so many things that were,

26:32.062 --> 26:35.790
you know, in place, available to staff, particularly from a learning development perspective,

26:35.822 --> 26:39.702
that we were just not communicating well, be that via our, you know,

26:39.758 --> 26:43.234
LMS and how accessible and easy was that to find

26:43.714 --> 26:47.374
the way that we were delivering training? It's a lot of kind of in person,

26:48.034 --> 26:51.690
in the classroom events that were happening. She kind of wears

26:51.722 --> 26:55.394
our kind of online, just in time offering there what's our OD consultancy

26:55.434 --> 26:59.642
service and kind of all of that stuff. And we

26:59.778 --> 27:03.602
created something called King's Kaleidoscope, which was kind of

27:03.618 --> 27:07.610
when I sort of realized the importance of articulating and

27:07.642 --> 27:11.106
offered staff in the organization, helping them really understand at

27:11.130 --> 27:14.706
particular moments in their career, where can they access the support that

27:14.730 --> 27:18.202
they need, and what does that look like? And how is that kind

27:18.218 --> 27:21.778
of multimodal and all of those sorts of things? And it can be,

27:21.946 --> 27:26.042
you want to offer as much as you can and everything that you can,

27:26.218 --> 27:29.946
but you sort of really need to sense check and kind of curate what's

27:30.010 --> 27:34.034
working well in the organization where you've got gaps and

27:34.074 --> 27:37.410
also where things are going really, really well and what you want to major on

27:37.442 --> 27:40.874
and focus on as a trust. So it was

27:40.994 --> 27:44.106
a big kind of leap into that role because I also

27:44.170 --> 27:47.664
then moved into kind of being in a senior workforce team,

27:47.704 --> 27:51.112
having much more exposure to the exec and other kind of senior issues that

27:51.128 --> 27:55.000
were going on in the organization. And, like I said, was lucky

27:55.032 --> 27:58.400
to have a good workforce team of

27:58.432 --> 28:01.888
colleagues around me and also have three really

28:01.936 --> 28:05.496
good individuals leading the team underneath me.

28:05.640 --> 28:09.160
That kind of made me look good and did

28:09.192 --> 28:12.736
a really incredible job navigating all the things that they had to

28:12.760 --> 28:16.440
do in support of the work that we wanted to undertake at King.

28:16.632 --> 28:19.760
Big, big leap, but really positive experience, I think,

28:19.792 --> 28:23.272
for curating, articulating what we were doing for staff. One thing I

28:23.288 --> 28:26.648
wanted to ask, so when you're working anywhere, there's only limited

28:26.696 --> 28:30.688
OD resources, you've only got a limited team, but the demand and need

28:30.736 --> 28:34.104
for OD is infinite. How do you manage that tension?

28:34.144 --> 28:37.720
What do you do to deploy your resources, people, as effectively

28:37.752 --> 28:42.056
as you can? So this makes me smile because I think of the

28:42.080 --> 28:46.248
conversations that I would have with members of the OD team who,

28:46.376 --> 28:49.704
you know, really wanted to be out in the organization,

28:49.824 --> 28:53.736
supporting wherever and whenever they could, and getting lots of different requests

28:53.840 --> 28:57.480
for things that, you know, for support that was needed, and kind of drew that

28:57.512 --> 29:01.456
right back to thinking. We need to have an evidence base for the

29:01.480 --> 29:05.008
work that we're going to do in OD. And one of the things that

29:05.016 --> 29:08.784
the NHS does, it has an annual staff survey and

29:08.864 --> 29:12.472
that provides a really rich insight into helping us think through areas

29:12.528 --> 29:16.208
that need particular support and challenge. It's so easy

29:16.256 --> 29:20.032
for there to be lots of corridor commissioning of please

29:20.168 --> 29:23.520
help my team out. And we'd really love just this one

29:23.552 --> 29:26.840
thing. And in various. Never just this one thing, you uncover a whole bunch of

29:26.872 --> 29:30.408
things and it's hard to step away from that offer of support once you've given

29:30.456 --> 29:33.764
it. And so I guess from an OD perspective,

29:34.344 --> 29:37.488
we just started to be kind of really disciplined

29:37.536 --> 29:40.816
around where we get asked for support.

29:41.000 --> 29:44.672
We probably need to establish a bit of a framework that just sense checks.

29:44.808 --> 29:47.520
Where are they in the staff survey? Where are they? Some of their other indicators

29:47.592 --> 29:51.512
around sickness, around turnover. What's the data we've got that suggests

29:51.608 --> 29:55.688
this is an area that needs priority support? And what

29:55.736 --> 29:58.568
are the kind of levels that we have to support that? So there was a

29:58.576 --> 30:02.808
bit of on the shelf. Here's a team diagnostic,

30:02.856 --> 30:05.992
here's a way of running a meeting. Here's if you want to

30:06.008 --> 30:09.080
have a way day to think through what your priorities are, here are some

30:09.112 --> 30:12.040
tools to do that. Give us a ring, we'll talk to you about it for

30:12.112 --> 30:15.370
1015 minutes and then off you go. Let us know how you get

30:15.402 --> 30:19.138
on. Then youve got that kind of more of an intervention,

30:19.186 --> 30:22.978
which is probably something thats contracted around a few different

30:23.026 --> 30:27.026
interventions, conversations with staff, probably putting

30:27.050 --> 30:30.682
in colleagues from health and wellbeing, equality, diversity and

30:30.698 --> 30:34.138
inclusion to kind of create more of a bespoke od offer.

30:34.266 --> 30:37.946
And then theres that. What do we actually need some long term investment in where

30:37.970 --> 30:42.014
we know weve got some particular challenges and being

30:42.054 --> 30:45.286
in a position to go to go to the exec and go to

30:45.310 --> 30:48.942
senior leaders and say this is the need that's out there,

30:49.078 --> 30:52.566
this is what we're being asked to do and

30:52.590 --> 30:56.342
actually having to be able to start to say no

30:56.398 --> 31:00.006
to people we can't help,

31:00.190 --> 31:03.734
not because we desperately don't want to, not because we can't, but just because

31:03.854 --> 31:07.634
physically and with the resource that we've got available to us,

31:08.204 --> 31:11.764
never an easy position because I think invariably od

31:11.804 --> 31:15.104
people want to want to help, want to support,

31:15.804 --> 31:19.300
but I think having that multi kind of mixed

31:19.332 --> 31:22.668
levels of kind of getting access to help and support, but also us being in

31:22.676 --> 31:25.948
a position when the team is saying we haven't got the resource that we need,

31:25.996 --> 31:29.260
we need to be able to articulate the requests that we've got

31:29.292 --> 31:32.692
coming in and just being much more disciplined around all of that and not

31:32.708 --> 31:35.436
just saying, oh, I had a chat, I got an email,

31:35.580 --> 31:38.982
we need to now do this id intervention. Actually. What sits behind all of that

31:38.998 --> 31:42.582
and what's the resource that we need to do it effectively, both in support of

31:42.598 --> 31:46.110
the team and in support of the organization that need our help about resourcing

31:46.142 --> 31:49.254
people to do their own OD, in effect, isn't it, and getting them used to

31:49.414 --> 31:53.310
being more independent but with support in the background. Yeah. How do people respond

31:53.342 --> 31:56.742
to that? Did it take time for them to get the confidence to do the

31:56.758 --> 32:00.966
things using the tools so. Absolutely. And I think

32:01.150 --> 32:04.716
what we started to do is look at

32:04.780 --> 32:08.372
how we, so we developed something called our values ambassadors,

32:08.428 --> 32:11.636
which were individuals within the organization that really cared

32:11.700 --> 32:15.004
about the culture of kings,

32:15.164 --> 32:18.036
embedding our values of kind, respectful team.

32:18.180 --> 32:21.852
And so we identified those individuals and we took them through a

32:22.028 --> 32:26.068
kind of train the trainer session where we started to give

32:26.116 --> 32:30.104
them some tools that they could then apply within their teams,

32:30.994 --> 32:34.610
things that were kind of safe to do, things that were, you know,

32:34.802 --> 32:38.570
aligned to the priorities of what the team was looking for help and support with.

32:38.602 --> 32:41.826
It wasn't something that was left field or people that wasn't surprising to

32:41.850 --> 32:45.250
people. And then kind of building that community of individuals

32:45.282 --> 32:48.714
that can help and sense check with each other and they also feel invested

32:48.754 --> 32:52.018
in. And I think that's kind of where I would have, if I

32:52.026 --> 32:54.978
was still at King's, we would have kind of continued on that journey,

32:55.026 --> 32:58.740
which is to kind of build OD capacity within teams

32:58.812 --> 33:02.524
with managers, working in partnership with them, and just kind of building that capability

33:02.604 --> 33:06.356
across the organization. And I know the OD team at King's continues

33:06.380 --> 33:09.948
to go from strength to strength, and I think is now in

33:09.956 --> 33:14.028
a really kind of robust position with that framework in mind to deliver

33:14.116 --> 33:17.316
the work really effectively, but in a way that's safe and

33:17.380 --> 33:20.876
healthy to do so. As I say, that supports the team and the organization,

33:21.020 --> 33:24.732
because you can achieve some amazing results, can't you? Because in

33:24.748 --> 33:28.108
its essence, often about organization development, it's about looking

33:28.156 --> 33:31.604
up and looking around and seeing things on an enterprise

33:31.644 --> 33:36.012
scale almost. And people are often just doing so.

33:36.188 --> 33:39.700
They're implementing a process or they're finishing

33:39.732 --> 33:44.036
a task and then metaphorically thrown over the wall to

33:44.060 --> 33:47.612
the next team or whatever. When people

33:47.668 --> 33:50.196
do actually start to embed a little bit of an OD mindset in their day

33:50.220 --> 33:53.892
to day work, remarkable things can often happen, can't they? Absolutely.

33:53.948 --> 33:57.400
And I think one of the things that we've noticed,

33:57.432 --> 34:01.648
apart from the sort of improvement in kind

34:01.656 --> 34:05.408
of staff experience and kind of how things are working,

34:05.456 --> 34:09.248
is also just the freedom and innovation

34:09.296 --> 34:12.760
that kind of comes from being able to kind of actually say, look up and

34:12.792 --> 34:15.960
out, start to really think through. What are the art of the possible?

34:16.032 --> 34:18.776
What could we be doing in this service? What could we be doing to help

34:18.800 --> 34:22.096
support our patients to new in different ways? So we know we've got

34:22.120 --> 34:25.352
this organizational strategy. We feel much more equipped as a team to

34:25.488 --> 34:28.592
respond to that proactively and think through. What does

34:28.608 --> 34:31.624
that mean for us and how are we going to deliver that? It all feels

34:31.664 --> 34:35.504
much more kind of inspired, innovative and forward thinking,

34:35.544 --> 34:39.120
which really leaves you thinking that

34:39.152 --> 34:42.224
you've made the biggest impact, because not only there

34:42.264 --> 34:46.248
are you then supporting the team and the individuals, but the organization's

34:46.336 --> 34:49.656
now much more effective and able to deliver what it needs to. And particularly

34:49.680 --> 34:53.137
when you're working in healthcare and you're, you know, primary,

34:53.225 --> 34:56.809
primary reason is to support patients in the best

34:56.841 --> 35:00.377
possible way. And when you start to see that shift in patient

35:00.425 --> 35:04.457
experience and how the service is thinking about its patients,

35:04.505 --> 35:07.905
which it can do far more effectively when the team's much more

35:07.929 --> 35:11.329
effective, it's unbelievably powerful

35:11.441 --> 35:14.681
and rewarding to see that and be part of that in some way. So when

35:14.697 --> 35:18.017
you think about success in your role, how do you measure it? What are

35:18.025 --> 35:21.694
the measures of success for you? Oh, that's a brilliant question.

35:22.554 --> 35:26.594
I think for me, in the role that I'm in

35:26.754 --> 35:30.090
now, obviously it's

35:30.122 --> 35:33.490
really important that we get really good kind of feedback on the work that we're

35:33.522 --> 35:37.330
doing. And I think when we start to see the

35:37.362 --> 35:41.114
shift, particularly for the client, in asking

35:41.154 --> 35:44.514
themselves the questions that we might be asking them, when we start to see that

35:44.554 --> 35:48.140
shift in the pace of the work that

35:48.332 --> 35:52.344
they're doing, the way they're thinking about things, how they start to

35:52.644 --> 35:55.772
think about the art of the possible and perhaps be more creative and innovative about

35:55.788 --> 35:59.404
the work that they do, that's obviously really important and incredibly

35:59.444 --> 36:02.984
rewarding. There are, of course, some tangible things around

36:03.484 --> 36:07.492
winning work and all of that, the kind of stuff that you might expect in

36:07.508 --> 36:10.876
this sort of role. But in the roles I was in previously in the

36:10.900 --> 36:13.844
NHS, I think a key measure of success,

36:14.304 --> 36:17.664
there's some tangible things there around staff results

36:17.704 --> 36:20.524
and what are people saying about their experience of working in the organization?

36:21.264 --> 36:24.368
But when you do

36:24.496 --> 36:28.584
really good work with a team and you sort of can

36:28.624 --> 36:31.944
leave them, in a way, what you want is for them to no longer

36:31.984 --> 36:35.564
need you. I suppose you eventually want to be made redundant by

36:35.864 --> 36:39.272
either equipping the team or working with them to overcome some of the challenges that

36:39.288 --> 36:42.752
they're facing. And I think for some of our care groups

36:42.768 --> 36:46.512
or directorates or teams that we've worked with, with, there have been times when

36:46.688 --> 36:48.724
we've started work with them and thought,

36:49.584 --> 36:52.784
this is going to be long, this is going to be challenging, but 18 months

36:52.824 --> 36:55.464
later, thinking, stepping away and saying,

36:55.544 --> 36:58.944
oh, they're thriving, they're kind of living

36:58.984 --> 37:02.056
their best life, as it were, and don't need us

37:02.080 --> 37:05.304
anymore. That's a really important measure of success for

37:05.344 --> 37:08.904
us. And then just that ongoing relationship and checking in how

37:08.944 --> 37:12.128
things going and just continuing to be

37:12.136 --> 37:15.924
that partner by their side. But I think ultimately, when people no longer need you,

37:16.234 --> 37:19.450
and then I think finally, just on kind of that

37:19.482 --> 37:23.346
point where you start to see organizations take OD

37:23.410 --> 37:27.594
seriously. So when I think about at kings, we weren't

37:27.714 --> 37:31.082
externally commissioning things anymore, we were the

37:31.098 --> 37:34.850
OD team, was running the exec away days, was running

37:34.882 --> 37:37.986
coaching sessions, was doing the doing of OD and

37:38.010 --> 37:41.782
being trusted to do that, I think, is the sort

37:41.798 --> 37:45.030
of biggest measure of success when people are saying, actually we don't need to

37:45.142 --> 37:49.342
commission outside anymore. We've got an OD team and we

37:49.358 --> 37:53.046
know that they're capable and confident and able to do the work,

37:53.230 --> 37:56.510
but they've got capacity too. So let's make the most of our,

37:56.542 --> 38:00.230
of our resource. That's. And certainly at imperial and certainly at

38:00.262 --> 38:03.326
King's, that's certainly where, you know, where things were. And of course,

38:03.350 --> 38:06.670
there are times when external support is entirely appropriate and right for a whole

38:06.702 --> 38:10.102
host of reasons. But actually, when first and foremost people want

38:10.118 --> 38:13.672
to speak to OD, talk to OD and get support, that's a

38:13.688 --> 38:17.312
massive measure of success for me. Well, I've got three questions

38:17.328 --> 38:21.688
on the back of that. So question one

38:21.816 --> 38:24.936
is, because you've got a unique view that not

38:24.960 --> 38:27.244
many people have, you've seen both sides.

38:27.824 --> 38:31.536
So what are the ingredients of a really effective

38:31.640 --> 38:35.232
sort of client consulting relationship? What is that sort of

38:35.408 --> 38:37.844
spark that helps it work really well?

38:38.644 --> 38:42.436
I think being able to be really open and honest with

38:42.460 --> 38:46.068
each other and being able to build relationships

38:46.156 --> 38:49.340
quickly is really important. If I think about some of the engagements that I'm on

38:49.372 --> 38:53.172
now, where you genuinely feel part of the team in

38:53.188 --> 38:57.276
a really important way, so you are able to speak openly,

38:57.300 --> 39:00.572
honestly, challenge around pace, challenge around the work

39:00.628 --> 39:04.420
that's happening. Being able to work

39:04.452 --> 39:08.032
with them in a really kind of constructive way, I think is the most

39:08.088 --> 39:12.404
important thing. Helping them draw out in themselves

39:12.704 --> 39:15.952
what they already know and making

39:16.008 --> 39:19.616
sure that you're adding value, not doing work that you know they can

39:19.640 --> 39:23.144
do or they just need some, some guidance and support on. But I think ultimately

39:23.184 --> 39:27.304
having that underpinning relationship where you can be

39:27.464 --> 39:31.168
open and honest about the things you're seeing, what you're experiencing

39:31.256 --> 39:34.840
and ways that you can support them and having kind of frank conversations around that

39:34.872 --> 39:38.814
is where is sort of where the magic happens, because I suppose that's where you're

39:38.854 --> 39:42.430
able to really drive things more quickly or

39:42.622 --> 39:45.782
be more transformational in the work that you

39:45.798 --> 39:49.614
need to do. So certainly having a really good, strong relationship

39:49.774 --> 39:53.246
is crucial, brilliant, and then just some quick

39:53.270 --> 39:56.526
fire questions for you. So no one very rarely picks up the phone goes,

39:56.550 --> 40:00.022
right, I need some OD. Like, how do you educate

40:00.078 --> 40:03.354
clients so they actually, they know what to ask for almost,

40:04.094 --> 40:08.252
rather than I need innate conversation. So one

40:08.268 --> 40:12.308
of the things that we did at Imperial

40:12.396 --> 40:15.692
and what we wanted to do was just bring

40:15.748 --> 40:19.476
managers awareness to the fact that they have such a major role in

40:19.500 --> 40:23.052
people's experience. And I'm

40:23.068 --> 40:26.684
a big fan of Eurovision, so we did

40:26.724 --> 40:30.204
this thing called engager vision, I couldn't help myself,

40:30.364 --> 40:33.908
where basically we brought managers into the room as part

40:33.916 --> 40:37.316
of a session that we were doing and we kind of made them decide from

40:37.380 --> 40:40.772
Nilpoix Douce pas, what are the reasons why people were

40:40.788 --> 40:43.932
leaving this organization? Kind of, yeah, you know, London calling and all of

40:43.948 --> 40:47.212
that stuff, kind of. You can just imagine it,

40:47.228 --> 40:51.172
can you? So, and ultimately the twelve points, the main reason

40:51.188 --> 40:54.732
why people leaving the organization is because of their relationship with

40:54.748 --> 40:58.476
their line manager, and that's what we're seeing through, you know, our ex interviews and

40:58.580 --> 41:02.380
after them having given the twelve points to pay or working conditions,

41:02.452 --> 41:05.904
actually, it's about. It's about you and

41:06.634 --> 41:09.730
what we're trying to do there is just bring back

41:09.762 --> 41:13.202
to my kind of original earlier point around when I entered that role and

41:13.218 --> 41:16.714
I realized how important my line management capability and role was,

41:16.754 --> 41:20.122
as well as the technical work that I'm doing, particularly if you're a clinician and

41:20.138 --> 41:23.562
that's how you've progressed in your career as a clinician and now you're a

41:23.578 --> 41:26.818
manager and a leader, making sure that they're thinking

41:26.866 --> 41:30.258
through the decisions, when they're making decisions, when they're,

41:30.306 --> 41:33.612
you know, delivering their role, what is their impact

41:33.668 --> 41:37.316
on other people? Just getting that to be part of what they're thinking about,

41:37.500 --> 41:41.172
that doesn't mean they need to start doing OD or coming to

41:41.188 --> 41:44.796
talk to us, but they're just aware of the role that they

41:44.820 --> 41:48.228
play in people's experience and how the team's delivering and how effective they are

41:48.276 --> 41:51.780
and just trying to create some new ways to kind of bring that to life

41:51.852 --> 41:55.116
for them using the data and intelligence that we've got through exit interviews

41:55.220 --> 41:59.048
and what people are telling us about the reason for leaving and kind of making

41:59.096 --> 42:02.364
them kind of cognizant of that in the work that they're doing.

42:02.784 --> 42:06.048
Not everyone loves Eurovision, but, yeah, there you go. What a

42:06.056 --> 42:09.352
great metaphor. And then last question I'm going to hand over to Danny because obviously

42:09.368 --> 42:13.056
we're mindful of your time as well. So obviously you've talked about data throughout

42:13.080 --> 42:17.256
the conversation today, but obviously you are doing an evidence based doctorate with Rob

42:17.280 --> 42:20.864
Briner, who a lot of people know for his work there. How's that

42:20.904 --> 42:24.256
informed your work? Because obviously the people profession is

42:24.280 --> 42:27.754
endeavoring to be a more evidence based practice, isn't it?

42:28.494 --> 42:32.126
So I was doing a kind of session with

42:32.230 --> 42:36.006
colleagues in KPMG about this just

42:36.030 --> 42:39.918
a couple of weeks ago, and I think it's made me

42:40.086 --> 42:43.678
really think about the four sources of evidence and actually where

42:43.726 --> 42:47.134
people have got individual preferences and strengths and weaknesses around those,

42:47.174 --> 42:50.830
of course, one of the sources is stakeholders, which I mentioned earlier, the important

42:50.902 --> 42:54.902
role that they play, obviously, your internal expertise and

42:54.918 --> 42:58.302
what you bring as a practitioner. But then also, what's your

42:58.318 --> 43:01.582
organizational data telling you? So I guess from an OD perspective to

43:01.598 --> 43:05.318
that earlier point, what are our priorities? What is our kind of data

43:05.366 --> 43:08.834
around turnover and stuff, survey telling us that we need to do? But then also,

43:09.214 --> 43:12.814
what's the scientific evidence for what we're wanting

43:12.854 --> 43:15.754
to do, what we're saying works?

43:16.494 --> 43:20.206
And one of those things, although it wasn't linked

43:20.230 --> 43:24.208
to OD necessarily, but in the pandemic, you might remember that when

43:24.216 --> 43:27.256
you were going to restaurants and people were kind of taking your temperature to see

43:27.280 --> 43:30.856
if you were well enough to come in, there was no evidence

43:30.960 --> 43:34.392
based that demonstrated that that was an effective way of kind of dealing

43:34.408 --> 43:37.888
with the pandemic. But it felt like the right thing to do.

43:37.936 --> 43:41.208
People felt a sense of safety if they knew their temperature was being checked and

43:41.216 --> 43:44.752
other people's temperature was being checked, and they might be ill, so they're not here.

43:44.888 --> 43:49.056
But actually, that balance between doing stuff that looks

43:49.200 --> 43:52.576
good and when an organization does something and you think, oh, we should

43:52.600 --> 43:56.148
probably be doing that. There's a big issue, particularly in

43:56.156 --> 43:59.748
the NHS at the moment, around violence and aggression, and you'll probably have seen those

43:59.796 --> 44:03.044
posters that go up, particularly on areas like transport

44:03.084 --> 44:07.104
for London. Don't be horrible to my mum, who kind of works

44:07.564 --> 44:11.212
as a train driver or whatever, but actually, there's little evidence,

44:11.348 --> 44:15.356
particularly in the healthcare context, to show that things like those posters work.

44:15.420 --> 44:18.524
But I've seen recently an increasing number of trusts.

44:18.644 --> 44:21.798
Kind of one trust does it, then another trust thinks they should do it.

44:21.916 --> 44:24.574
Actually, what's the evidence based behind what we're doing?

44:25.114 --> 44:28.906
And how confident are we to

44:28.930 --> 44:32.450
challenge what we're doing? And of course, what evidence based

44:32.482 --> 44:36.258
practice is all about, really. It's not about being totally concrete in

44:36.266 --> 44:40.002
the decisions that you're making and the choices that you're making, or being 100%

44:40.058 --> 44:44.106
certain that this will create the right outcome. It's just putting

44:44.130 --> 44:47.434
yourself in a position where you're more likely to be impactful, you're more

44:47.474 --> 44:51.600
likely to get the outcomes that you need, taking a robust evidence base,

44:51.752 --> 44:55.384
and it's much easier to do than you think. Even if you just spent ten

44:55.424 --> 44:58.360
minutes thinking about, what do our stakeholders think?

44:58.392 --> 45:01.736
What's our organizational data saying? What might some recent thinking

45:01.760 --> 45:05.408
on this topic be? You're more likely to come to a better

45:05.456 --> 45:08.880
outcome. So I think a big thing for me

45:08.912 --> 45:12.296
is just trying to get people to think about the four sources of

45:12.320 --> 45:16.216
evidence and even just taking just ten minutes

45:16.280 --> 45:19.032
to think about what they're doing and how they're doing it and is it the

45:19.048 --> 45:22.974
right way. Hopefully we can be more evidence based in our approaches.

45:23.674 --> 45:27.442
Brilliant advice. So just one last question for you, Nate. So, learning and

45:27.458 --> 45:30.294
development, you've obviously done your doctorate, you've done an MSc.

45:30.874 --> 45:33.842
What does investing in your own learning and development look like for you? What do

45:33.858 --> 45:38.082
you do day to day, week to week? So one

45:38.098 --> 45:41.894
of the things that I really try and do is

45:42.354 --> 45:45.634
follow great people on social media that post

45:45.794 --> 45:48.806
lots of really accessible information, be that information graphics,

45:48.870 --> 45:52.430
be that sketches, and I'm constantly screenshotting and putting into a

45:52.462 --> 45:55.902
kind of folder in my phone, stealing basically great things that

45:55.918 --> 45:59.194
people are putting particularly on kind of social media.

45:59.654 --> 46:02.846
And again, kind of park my evidence based hat there

46:02.870 --> 46:06.806
for a second, because not all of that is going to be have

46:06.830 --> 46:10.718
a robust evidence base behind it. But I like to, given that

46:10.726 --> 46:14.294
I spend a lot of time at the moment reading journals and things

46:14.334 --> 46:18.022
like that, just some of those quick infographic visual things kind

46:18.038 --> 46:23.814
of really speak to me. And increasingly,

46:24.154 --> 46:27.690
I'm not just saying this because I'm doing this now, but podcasts, hearing people's

46:27.722 --> 46:31.362
conversations around their experiences and kind of what they've lived

46:31.378 --> 46:34.578
through and what they bring to bear, I think is just such a powerful way

46:34.586 --> 46:38.466
of helping me reflect on how I would act in a situation or what

46:38.490 --> 46:41.614
I would do. So I think anything that makes

46:43.074 --> 46:46.098
wherever you're getting your kind of content or information from,

46:46.186 --> 46:49.846
if it's supporting you and giving you what you need, there should never be any

46:49.870 --> 46:53.374
kind of judgment around what people are doing or how they're doing it.

46:53.494 --> 46:56.998
I'm not a big book reader. People think sometimes feel pressured to

46:57.006 --> 47:00.994
say I'm reading unseen books. You've both got wonderful bookshelves behind you,

47:01.454 --> 47:04.638
as I say that to people who clearly enjoy books.

47:04.686 --> 47:07.990
But I think there sometimes can be a bit of a judgment around where people

47:08.022 --> 47:11.354
are getting their CPD in learning and development and actually

47:11.934 --> 47:14.562
getting what you need and getting what's right for you in any format is.

47:14.638 --> 47:18.282
It's what matters, really. Absolutely. It's what works for you, isn't it? There's no point

47:18.378 --> 47:21.858
reading books or trying to read books if that's not what sparks interest. It's going

47:21.866 --> 47:23.654
to excite you. Find the thing.

47:24.474 --> 47:27.914
Yeah. Brilliant. Well, Nate, just want to say huge

47:27.954 --> 47:31.610
thank you literally everything you've shared has been so, so useful and

47:31.642 --> 47:35.050
particularly for our audience. There's just so much learning guides

47:35.202 --> 47:38.266
and such an interesting story as well. And it feels like it's only kind of

47:38.290 --> 47:42.034
half written so far. So looking forward to hearing what happens

47:42.074 --> 47:45.306
next. And your amazing use of Eurovision as a metaphor is something that

47:45.330 --> 47:48.914
we might as well. Anything I can do to champion

47:48.954 --> 47:52.034
Eurovision, I love it. Yeah. Which is very timely because it's coming soon,

47:52.074 --> 47:55.014
isn't it? It is indeed. Loving our entry this year.

47:55.514 --> 47:59.842
Yeah. Some of the things I'm going to take away from the

47:59.858 --> 48:03.386
conversation, and I'm sure you're taking things as well, Danny. So just the importance

48:03.410 --> 48:06.914
of just creating a space, often it just creates so

48:06.954 --> 48:10.574
much value, such a simple thing. But it's about what Od does, isn't it?

48:11.274 --> 48:14.650
Through simple things, great things happen. Just the importance of mentors

48:14.762 --> 48:17.986
informally, formally, and also the generosity of people as well,

48:18.010 --> 48:21.098
that they're very happy, happy to give their time. So be bold and be brave

48:21.146 --> 48:24.970
and don't be shy when you ask for that as well. And the

48:25.042 --> 48:28.626
critical role of managers has just come through this and how organizations

48:28.650 --> 48:31.538
often don't support them enough, but they have such an impact, as you sort of

48:31.546 --> 48:33.946
say, on people's engagement, their wellbeing,

48:34.010 --> 48:37.802
their organization's performance, and really loved what

48:37.818 --> 48:40.562
you've said about the importance of being very clear on what the OD offer is

48:40.578 --> 48:43.786
to an organization and the importance of. It's as important about what you say no

48:43.810 --> 48:47.274
to is what you say yes to and how you can use that to use

48:47.314 --> 48:50.174
organization development at scale and embed it in the.

48:50.514 --> 48:54.354
The roles of people. And then just the final part is just the critical role

48:54.394 --> 48:58.714
of data and scientific data to actually challenge some of maybe the shonky

48:58.754 --> 49:02.234
myths or unusual traditions that we just

49:02.314 --> 49:05.746
abide by but never question but understand. And I don't think I

49:05.770 --> 49:09.426
blocked out the temperature bit until you told us that. You remember,

49:09.610 --> 49:12.454
what were we doing? Yeah, exactly.

49:13.234 --> 49:16.482
Danny, what stood out for you? Yeah, I think you've covered so much of it,

49:16.498 --> 49:18.912
but I think the other. The only other thing I think you said that I

49:18.928 --> 49:22.448
would highlight is that getting comfortable with OD

49:22.496 --> 49:25.976
being temporary scaffolding and we're there to kind of help people go on

49:26.000 --> 49:29.264
and be their own advocates for what use OD in their own practice.

49:29.384 --> 49:32.872
Brilliant. Well, thank you so much, Nate. We really appreciate all your having me.

49:32.888 --> 49:36.728
It's gone ridiculously quickly, so. Yeah, thank you for making such a lovely conversation.

49:36.896 --> 49:38.424
Thank you. Thank you. Take care.