Agile Transformation at Jaguar Land Rover with Jag Johal - OrgDev Episode 16

Our latest episode of the OrgDev podcast is with Jag Johal.  Jag is responsible for driving organisational change and developing a culture of agility across Jaguar Land Rover. He is an experienced leader specialising in people and digital transformation and is leading an extensive programme to deploy an agile model and process across the Engineering division and beyond.

We both very much enjoyed chatting with Jag and understanding more about what agile transformation really means in practice and how an OD mindset has helped him with the challenge.  We would love to hear what you think of the conversation!

Thanks for listening!

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Transcript

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Hi and welcome to the Aug Dev podcast. We're absolutely delighted to

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be joined by Jag Johal today. JAG has a fascinating

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role in a fascinating organization. He is HR director

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of Agile transformation at Jaguar Land Rover. He's been at Jaguar Land

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Rover over 20 years now and in that time he's had roles

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of all different parts of the business, including engineering,

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product distribution, sales and marketing,

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and has extensive experience both UK and globally.

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He's been HR director of Agile transformation for the last three and a half

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years. And his connection to podcast is he actually met Danny at Roffey

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park. Is that right, Danny? Yes. Good, good for you. Is back.

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We're both on the organization development practitioners programme for nine

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intense days, which I'm sure we'll talk about at

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some point because Rothey park is a connection between lots of OD practitioners as well.

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So Jack, thank you so much for joining us and thanks so much for making

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time for us today. No problem. Lovely to be here and be speaking to you

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both. Likewise. Welcome. So we're just going to kick off with an

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easy question, so just tell us a bit about your role. So tell us a

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bit more about being HR director of Agile transformation. What does that involve?

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Wide and varied role, probably fair to say. We've spent

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a lot of our time over the last few years, really, I guess since the

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start of the program in terms of mobilization and education.

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So I think I've been quite open with lots of people that

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I find myself in this position. But at the start of this I

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could spell the word agile and I knew what scrum was on a rugby pitch

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and that was kind of where my starting place was. But similarly,

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while we have pockets of expertise in our organization,

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for lots of people, this was a brand new journey as well. So a lot

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of what we've been doing is coaching people,

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educating people, engaging people in

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the journey that we're trying to take and really kind of

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building their knowledge up of how do you work in this kind

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of construct? What are the kind of practices, the ceremonies,

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things to watch out for, the anti patterns

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that kind of occur. But we are talking about a

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really significant scale sort of when we started,

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probably upwards of 8000, we're probably somewhere close to about 12,000,

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13,000, I think, people who are working in this system now. So it's

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a big old undertaking to be able to do that.

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A lot of change, lot of comms in there in

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terms of supporting people through that journey.

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That in itself has been an interesting approach and probably something we might

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touch upon during the course of the rest of this conversation about how well

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we have done that or how well we haven't done it in some places and

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what we could have done better. But it underlies

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the importance of genuine, proper, good change management

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to support people through a, through a journey.

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And while we still doing continuing mobilization, education,

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building maturity of people's understanding of this approach,

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a lot of actually what we're starting to do now is seeing where this

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all integrates itself into the broader program delivery system,

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or where it doesn't. And so when we first started this,

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I was kind of told that one of the things you'll end up doing,

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Jack, is kind of identifying all of the rub points and

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the tension points that exist in this organization,

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it probably be fair to say we found them, certainly a lot of them,

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and we're still discovering as we go through. And part of our job now is

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kind of trying to really distill them and figure out which ones are the ones

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that are causing us the biggest pain. How do we go about resolving them?

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And that of course, may not be my direct team, that resolving them,

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because we don't own that particular process or system or

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tooling infrastructure, but it is about trying to integrate

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things so that actually we are making the lives of our people as

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productive as possible and we can make agile as a system work. So knitting

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all of that together is sort of a big part of the challenge at the

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moment. And what was the driver behind bringing in that agile transformation?

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What were you trying to achieve?

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Fundamentally, we need to recorrect our

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delivery of our vehicles on time to cost equality,

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and not just in that context. We also know that the competition is

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moving faster and faster. So we've been

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able to stay relevant in this industry is important. The barriers to competition

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have probably come down a little over the last few years.

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And it's not just traditional competitors that we're going

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up against. There are new ones coming up all the time, particularly in electric

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vehicles. So this was very much about how

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do we ensure that we are a genuinely competitive,

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sustainable business going into the future? And obviously,

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products and in this instance, vehicles are our life blood. Lovely. Thank you.

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So how does OD, how has Od helped you do that

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role? So it's not, you've not got organization development in the title,

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but how have you applied the mindset to the approach you take?

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I think the thing that really struck me, probably six to nine months

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after I was kind of working in this space, is I guess

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I realized I've always been doing agile. I just

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didn't know it in terms of the language or

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some of the tools or processes or ways

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of working. So because a lot of, I suppose

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what I've done during my career are things like all design type projects,

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you know, ranging from reduction of workforce

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type stuff that we have to do through to actually designing

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and setting up new organization constructs.

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But within that, how do sort of systems come together?

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Where have you got blockages in the, in the way things are working? Where have

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you got waste? How do you optimize yourselves

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for delivering whatever product system that you are trying to deliver,

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which in essence is a lot of what agile is actually all about? Have you

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set your teams up to be as optimal as possible,

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taking things out of their way, maximising their time to do delivery

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work, et cetera. So it's been

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a learning curve, no doubt about it, in terms of some of the more technical

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aspects of agile, for one of the better phrase. But I think what has really

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helped me is that OD lens, I guess

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I've always carried and been improving hopefully

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over the years, very relevant in what we're doing today,

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both in terms of not just the way things are organized from

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a system perspective, but also a big part of agile.

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And successful adoption of agile is all about mindset. So you

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can have all of the best set scrum ceremonies that you like,

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or Kanban or Jira boards or whatever it is.

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But actually a big premise of all of this is have you got people,

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not just leadership, but people in the place where they're

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willing to embrace change, they're willing to embrace a different way of

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working, challenging known ways, challenging status quo,

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challenging each other up, down, sidewards,

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and fundamentally at the base of it, have you got an environment that is going

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to encourage people to experiment, have a go,

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learn from doing, because if you

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haven't, some of the principles that agile is built on just

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won't flourish. So yeah, it was that kind of realization of ah,

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this is really interesting. I have a language set, something I think I've

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spent quite a bit of my career actually doing so, and that's

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kind of where a few things fell into place for me in terms of how

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I can genuinely add value into this space, which I'll be honest,

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I was struggling with from time to time because I don't have that deep

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agile background, or at least I didn't think I had until

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I started joining some dots together. So it sounds like a huge role you

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stepped into in a huge transformation project. How did you know where to start?

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Very good question. I suppose at the very, very beginning we

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were guided by another organisation who

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gave us expertise and direction in the space. And I think in those

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days it was very much learning and it was very much being as part of

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the conversation, observing a lot. But I think

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the bit for me that really started to boil this down to was actually work

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at the team level, because that's where this kind

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of really starts. There are so many associated themes

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and things to go after that. Knowing where to start can be

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really difficult. But if you haven't got your team set up at

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the very base of the system, you have no fundamental

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foundations. So a lot of where we really started

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was some quite basic places of have

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we got the team set up? Do they have required roles that

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is a scrum master, a product owner, where they don't,

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how are we supporting to go get them with the right capability and

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introducing them to the business and inducting them into the way we're working,

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alignment on the ceremony, cadence, are people following

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it? And if they're not, how are we helping them to understand?

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So there were some real basics. To be brutally honest, there wasn't necessarily

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anything particularly novel or new.

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Lots of other organizations have done this, but if those foundational

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play, those foundational elements at the team level are not in place,

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you're really going to struggle, I think, elsewhere.

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That being said, I think one of the things that was a huge benefit

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of ours was we had the

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direction that came from the very top.

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So that gave us permission to go do a lot of stuff

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in a lot of ways. So that what we had, I think, at that

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point was a nice blend of prioritization at a senior level,

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but this is really important. And we also had

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mobilization at the team level,

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which allowed us to get traction quite quickly,

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actually, which was a big part of what

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we were trying to do. That's really interesting, and there's so many questions.

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It's really fascinating that the similarities you're noticing between agile

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and OD. How do you get a manufacturing organization

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where everything is about certainty, to move to an approach

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which is more about iteration? How does that happen? Obviously, it sounds

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like senior management played a significant role in this.

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Yes. Yeah, I think it would be fair to say we're still on that journey

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and it is a part of our challenge at

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the moment. As you move further right through our

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development system and move into more of a manufacturing space, which is

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a live bit of work we've gone on at the moment, you do end up

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ultimately moving into a more lean based environment

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where things are actually more repetitive and it isn't about continuous iteration

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and redesign and redevelopment. And so that journey is

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what we've been trying to chart as we've been going through. So,

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but it's one of the really interesting things, I think,

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that I've certainly learned a lot about over the course of

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the last few years, that there is a bit of a fallacy, I think,

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or certainly I've observed in some places and instances that

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agile is almost a bit of a well, go do what you want type of

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thing because you're empowered and you your best place

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to know what you want to do. And actually when you do it really well,

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what it really drives is genuine

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alignment and prioritization. So actually it's

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not so much about empowering teams

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per se, but it is enabling them to be self

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managing, which I think is a really important distinction.

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So, because the premise of what a vehicle is isn't for

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individual teams to create because,

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well, I'm not quite sure what would appear at the end. A lot of that

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has to be done upfront and aligned before you

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get teams starting to really get into the details of executing it. The real trick

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is how do you get the right people with the right skill set

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who are much more knowledgeable to actually design what

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is being asked and test it and deal with the problems and be

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the experts who know everything there is to know about body

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systems or software systems or whatever it might be.

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And the biggest challenge is how do you unify a

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vast group of people and synchronize all of the activity?

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That's actually one, that's one of the biggest things in what is fundamentally a very

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complex product in a car, doable.

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But I think we're still a few

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years on, still working our way through some of our core

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foundational frameworks and how

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do they support, but in some instances, how do they maybe not support,

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and are there any changes we need to make in

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terms of that iterative release of value

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as you kind of go through? So interesting, isn't it? And I think you said,

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which is like doing agile properly, and it's almost like

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strategy agile to many organizations kind of lost its meaning. It's been

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twisted and turned to suit the context. We've been in organizations where

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they said we're, and they're actually hot desking,

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they've just taken everyone's. That's not agile. There is a

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way of doing it in the discipline behind it as well.

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What was your journey into OD then? It sounds like you've had sort

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of a fascinating career too. Now how did you find OD or did OD find

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you? Probably a bit of both, I guess.

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Like I said, I think from a very early stage how

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things fit together was always sort of in,

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in my sort of thinking, I suppose. So it

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wasn't ever just about there is this particular problem in the organization.

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I suppose intuitively I always went to look behind the curtains to go,

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well is that the actual problem or is that just the symptom? And therefore if

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that's the symptom, there's got to be a root cause somewhere. And how do I

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go poke around to go find out about what the root cause is? And I

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guess just a natural curiosity of wanting to find

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out more about how

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do you solve the underlying problem as opposed to just the symptom that's

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presenting itself and a bit to the agile point, I suppose. And it

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goes back to something Danny referenced in terms of when we first met at

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Rothey Park. I suppose that's the bit where od found me, a bit where I

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was fortunate enough through our organisation to go on that practitioner's course.

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And again that kind of gave a bit of a structure to

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something I think I'd been practicing for a while, again probably without

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really knowing it. And that probably

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lit a bit of a fire in terms of, ah,

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there's more to this I think, than just poking around and asking

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some questions. There's a structure, there's a framework, there's different ways of

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addressing problems, there are different schools of thought, some of

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which don't align and have very different views on

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how to go about doing it. And then ultimately, you know, a few

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fast forward a few years later, I'd actually go one step further and then

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ended up doing my masters at Roffey park,

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which again was brilliant because that further embedded

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some of the learning I think I'd put in place.

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Great cohort of people,

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great environment to learn,

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and that environment nurtures that kind

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of thinking about how do systems

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come together, but with a very strong, um, humanistic lens.

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And I guess that's the bit that's kind of always blended with me, which this

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isn't ever just about mechanics of a system. A system only works

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as well as the people in it. And certainly, you know, when I put my

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hr hat on, the one thing I've learned, or learned very quickly and

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continue to learn, is people are complicated. And I'm

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always minded of something someone said to me at the very start of my career.

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Jake, your job is actually easy. It just becomes complicated the

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moment people enter it. And that's just

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the nature of people, isn't it? We all come at things with very different lenses,

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different beliefs, different views, and it's a double

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edged sword of embracing all of that to create a

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truly inclusive, diverse conclusion of some

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degree of description versus sometimes it'd be a lot easier if everyone just thought the

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same and we could just get something done and tick it off.

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And that's that. I guess that's the tussle that I've always recognized in OD,

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that there is no easy way

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through it. And again, I'm still minded of a couple of early interactions

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at Rothey park, where actually even the term OD was being discussed

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and referred to as something that does exist or

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doesn't exist. Is it something that sort of the OD field have created for the

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purposes of themselves? Does it mean anything to the organizations that you're

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working in, et cetera? Some of that was great to explore as well,

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and that's why I think I found a bit of a landing

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spot between both, where driven through me

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is quite a strong operational lens of going to get stuff done. There are some

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big projects and programs we've had to deliver against certain timescales. And at the

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same point, how do you use OD as a way of a

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bit, something you was question you asked earlier, Danny, in terms of

16:55.182 --> 16:58.518
where do you start, how do you use something that allows you to

16:58.606 --> 17:02.620
pinpoint oh, heres the question thats actually being asked or the problem that is

17:02.652 --> 17:05.908
actually being solutionised for now. How do

17:05.916 --> 17:09.092
you build an approach out for there? So it started to give for me the

17:09.108 --> 17:12.380
bit that I sort of took to it most is it started to build

17:12.412 --> 17:16.060
a bit of a scaffold that allowed you to investigate problems

17:16.212 --> 17:19.604
in a more structured way, rather than necessarily

17:19.644 --> 17:24.028
just diving around and having a bit of a route and asking some questions

17:24.196 --> 17:27.504
in the spirit of solving genuine business problems

17:27.544 --> 17:31.104
as opposed to an OD practitioner having a nice time and asking some interesting

17:31.144 --> 17:34.288
questions. I think the outcomes bit has always been

17:34.296 --> 17:37.352
the really important bit to me. There's the so what question that sits at the

17:37.368 --> 17:40.408
back of it. Yeah. Being really grounded in reality, the operational

17:40.456 --> 17:44.272
reality and the business, what the business is trying to achieve. Brilliant. So one

17:44.288 --> 17:47.536
thing we like to ask everybody comes on because we're trying to demystify kind of

17:47.560 --> 17:50.472
roles a bit. What does the typical week look like? We used to ask what

17:50.488 --> 17:53.752
a typical day looked like, but that's. We gave up on that. We gave up

17:53.768 --> 17:56.976
on that. What does the typical week look like for you? In terms of what

17:57.000 --> 18:00.884
you're actually doing. I'm not sure I can even answer that one, if I'm honest,

18:01.384 --> 18:04.576
because I think a bit of that, a bit tongue in cheek, but is the

18:04.600 --> 18:09.456
nature of what we do in terms of being in a transformational background

18:09.520 --> 18:12.920
that I guess, quite honestly, no one week

18:12.952 --> 18:16.824
is ever quite the same. But I guess the typical

18:16.864 --> 18:20.632
type of activities is a lot of time spent with

18:20.648 --> 18:24.004
the team to try and create genuine alignment on what we're trying to do.

18:24.864 --> 18:27.840
That in itself has been a journey to be able to get done properly.

18:27.872 --> 18:31.224
And I think I've learned a huge amount about myself in terms of ability

18:31.304 --> 18:34.720
to do that in a big, complex program,

18:34.912 --> 18:38.912
a lot of time with stakeholders to get their alignment and

18:39.088 --> 18:42.816
how we again, pull that together. Increasingly, what I'm trying to do

18:42.840 --> 18:47.138
is actually dedicate a bit of time to generally do some thinking before

18:47.186 --> 18:50.602
just lurching from one thing to the next, which I have done

18:50.738 --> 18:54.650
before. And ultimately,

18:54.682 --> 18:58.242
I think there is also space during the week where literally problem

18:58.298 --> 19:01.818
solving. So this is the latest thing that's come up.

19:01.946 --> 19:06.322
How do we deal with that latest question, issue, et cetera? So that inevitably

19:06.378 --> 19:09.818
takes quite a bit of time up because they're not straightforward answers

19:09.986 --> 19:13.970
in most cases. And unfortunately, in a lot of instances, people ask me

19:14.002 --> 19:17.748
questions and I don't know the answer. So the job is going out

19:17.876 --> 19:21.292
and finding others who do and help engage in that conversation

19:21.348 --> 19:25.504
to at least create a route forward. And that's a really important thing,

19:26.244 --> 19:29.332
having time to think, because in that thinking time,

19:29.468 --> 19:33.604
I guess you're trying to anticipate problems, trying to

19:33.684 --> 19:37.596
think through different approaches and whatnot as well. But sometimes

19:37.780 --> 19:40.956
we think of it as a little bit indulgent to have that time or having

19:40.980 --> 19:44.510
the discipline of like, saying, look, you know, Thursday afternoons

19:44.542 --> 19:48.270
between two and five. Don't interrupt me. I'm going to be thinking,

19:48.462 --> 19:51.782
how easy is it to find that space in your diary to do and what

19:51.798 --> 19:54.742
do you call it so no one disturbs you? Well, I just block it out

19:54.758 --> 19:58.318
and put private so no one can actually see what's in it, I guess

19:58.406 --> 20:02.434
is a very tactic I probably shouldn't have actually said out loud,

20:03.254 --> 20:06.718
but it's literally as brutal as that because I agree with

20:06.726 --> 20:10.134
you. Actually, I had a reflection just a few weeks ago where for one

20:10.174 --> 20:13.936
reason or another, my entire day emptied out. So I had this whole day

20:13.960 --> 20:17.928
to myself, which as a largely

20:17.976 --> 20:20.644
introverted character, I couldn't have asked for anything more,

20:21.024 --> 20:25.200
which is brilliant. And I did get to probably about lunchtime and

20:25.392 --> 20:28.872
I questioned myself about what value have I added over the course of the

20:28.888 --> 20:32.924
morning? Because this paper I'm trying to write, I've written two paragraphs.

20:33.544 --> 20:37.560
So in terms of genuine output, but what I'd given myself is time to

20:37.632 --> 20:40.826
actually thumb through a few books or articles that have

20:40.850 --> 20:43.674
always been there that I kind of want to refer back to. You know,

20:43.714 --> 20:47.034
I started paragraphs several times and rewrote them. But it's

20:47.074 --> 20:50.634
interesting reflection in my own patterns of behaviour to say that

20:50.714 --> 20:54.026
because I haven't been super busy answering issues, going from meeting to

20:54.050 --> 20:58.082
meeting, answering calls, et cetera, that therefore am

20:58.098 --> 21:01.466
I working hard, which I thought was an

21:01.490 --> 21:04.774
interesting reflection on myself. But what I

21:04.894 --> 21:08.794
simply. What I do try to do is block out at least typically 3 hours

21:09.774 --> 21:12.782
at some point during the week and I've started to get a bit of a

21:12.798 --> 21:15.958
standard pattern behind it and put myself in

21:15.966 --> 21:20.074
a quiet place. So typically, mainly probably at home,

21:20.374 --> 21:23.766
which tends to work, but I'm always minded and again, it's one

21:23.790 --> 21:27.110
thing that I've been trying to practice more and more of myself is

21:27.142 --> 21:30.834
even then you can get distracted. So teams messages pop

21:30.874 --> 21:34.146
in, your phone rings, whatever. So that

21:34.170 --> 21:37.610
again is a practice I'm trying to improve on about trying to

21:37.642 --> 21:41.218
block out that time because I do get real value

21:41.266 --> 21:45.138
from it and more importantly it's value

21:45.226 --> 21:48.290
created for others to enable that clarity

21:48.322 --> 21:51.530
and alignment which like I said has been one of the biggest

21:51.562 --> 21:54.906
challenges in what we have been doing and we're going to send a copy of

21:54.930 --> 21:58.194
that to so many people. So important.

21:58.354 --> 22:02.574
Just don't tell them about the blocks. No anticipate.

22:03.514 --> 22:07.202
But it is that kind of how do I create value? And particularly

22:07.218 --> 22:10.770
when you come from the operation where it is, where there's kind of action

22:10.842 --> 22:14.634
based cycle, aren't we? Whereas this is like the value that you're creating.

22:14.674 --> 22:18.194
Like rarely does a team give itself a high five when they prevented something from

22:18.234 --> 22:22.778
never happening. It's. It's a different kind of feeling of adding,

22:22.946 --> 22:26.362
making things better, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what

22:26.378 --> 22:29.776
do you enjoy most about your role? I think the

22:29.800 --> 22:34.080
biggest thing I would say was I'd go back to the team and

22:34.112 --> 22:37.944
when I watch people learn and grow

22:38.104 --> 22:40.044
and flourish for themselves,

22:41.864 --> 22:45.444
that's very much a moment to stand back and go look what they're doing.

22:46.664 --> 22:50.224
And I wouldn't say that's out of

22:50.384 --> 22:53.568
intensive coaching through myself. It's a bit

22:53.576 --> 22:56.966
of nudge and nurdling, it's a bit of creating the environment and then watching people

22:57.030 --> 23:00.990
take the opportunity and be able to deliver some great stuff is brilliant

23:01.102 --> 23:04.246
and we have some magnificent people and I'm lucky enough to work in my group

23:04.270 --> 23:07.434
with some fab people, some fab stakeholders, et cetera.

23:08.134 --> 23:11.558
And we go back to that outcome piece, not just do great work,

23:11.606 --> 23:14.822
but actually land great outcomes in the business.

23:14.958 --> 23:18.806
And I hear and I see the feedback from the business about that's

23:18.830 --> 23:23.170
a difference that this personal persons have made is

23:23.202 --> 23:27.202
probably the thing that drives me the most, but that's in

23:27.218 --> 23:30.410
the context of are we making the business better?

23:30.602 --> 23:33.934
So like I said, we are still on a journey.

23:34.954 --> 23:38.178
Horrible phrase maybe, but we definitely are. And we still have

23:38.186 --> 23:41.674
a long way to go. But where you see bits of it coming together

23:41.754 --> 23:45.522
and you see things starting to work and you hear

23:45.698 --> 23:49.296
comments around levels of collaboration that people just

23:49.320 --> 23:50.524
have never seen before,

23:52.464 --> 23:55.784
or problem solving at an earlier stage of a program than

23:55.864 --> 23:59.632
we've ever seen before, that's the kind of stuff which says, I know

23:59.648 --> 24:03.272
we're onto the right thing. It's still a long way to go. Actually. This is

24:03.288 --> 24:07.424
a really hard slog and you have loads of nagging self doubt questions

24:07.464 --> 24:09.864
about are we doing the right thing, am I the right person to be doing

24:09.904 --> 24:13.696
this job given my background? And, and, and, but those little bits kind

24:13.720 --> 24:17.596
of keep you going. And I suppose it comes back to

24:17.620 --> 24:20.940
that comment I made earlier. That's a very humanistic way of

24:20.972 --> 24:24.236
looking at things, which I suppose is a bit of my outlook around.

24:24.420 --> 24:28.364
Fundamentally it's all about the people. If the people are getting on and the people

24:28.404 --> 24:32.304
are delivering somewhere, somehow the system will knit itself together.

24:33.524 --> 24:37.396
But watching people grow and knowing you've had even a small

24:37.460 --> 24:41.086
part of it is probably the, the best

24:41.110 --> 24:44.470
thing I would ever take out of a job like this sounds really satisfying.

24:44.622 --> 24:48.398
And I guess there's comparisons between sort of implementing

24:48.446 --> 24:51.394
agile at scale and actually just creating culture change.

24:51.894 --> 24:55.582
What is the role of the managers like? Sort of not necessarily the

24:55.598 --> 24:59.342
senior managers but middle managers in making agile work in this. And how have

24:59.358 --> 25:02.518
you had to engage them to get them on board? Because these are busy people

25:02.566 --> 25:05.734
with a lot of BAU that you're adding more stuff

25:05.774 --> 25:08.794
on top, aren't you? What part do they play?

25:09.254 --> 25:12.590
Huge. You know, there is a real danger that

25:12.622 --> 25:16.462
you missed that population out. And I would probably say

25:16.558 --> 25:20.270
that is one of the things I look back on, on areas

25:20.342 --> 25:23.934
that I think we could improve on how we

25:24.054 --> 25:28.286
have gone about it. You know, there are, to your point,

25:28.430 --> 25:32.118
Gary, elements of weve put stuff on top of managers

25:32.166 --> 25:35.642
and whether weve made it easier or not, im still bit of work in progress.

25:35.738 --> 25:39.274
I think, and not unsurprisingly, we've got feedback from them

25:39.314 --> 25:42.802
to say that they are critical though, because the bulk

25:42.818 --> 25:45.906
of the, you know, the squads and the teams

25:45.970 --> 25:49.954
report up through to these people. So, you know, their influence is

25:50.074 --> 25:53.934
big. They have big teams in some instances,

25:54.474 --> 25:58.338
large reporting numbers and

25:58.466 --> 26:01.962
a lot of responsibility in terms of delivery of some of the components

26:02.018 --> 26:05.322
or the systems that sit within our product. So I

26:05.338 --> 26:09.026
think we've, I would say we've got more work to do on

26:09.090 --> 26:13.642
how we really galvanize that group, how we engage

26:13.698 --> 26:17.538
and entertain a conversation that really kind of

26:17.586 --> 26:20.802
distills where they are and what we

26:20.818 --> 26:23.962
need to do to continue to improve. Because I think I would always come back

26:23.978 --> 26:27.490
to the point that agile also isn't magic. It doesn't solve every single

26:27.522 --> 26:30.762
problem and in some instances creates other problems.

26:30.938 --> 26:34.488
And again, I think that's a little bit of a fallacy that just sprinkle a

26:34.496 --> 26:37.160
bit of agile on an organization and it will be brilliant.

26:37.312 --> 26:41.408
I go again back to the fact that unfortunately people aren't that simple

26:41.536 --> 26:45.432
and some instantly take to it, some don't. Some are sat

26:45.448 --> 26:47.512
on the fence and wanting to find a bit more and have a bit of

26:47.528 --> 26:50.960
social proof to demonstrate and that is compounded

26:50.992 --> 26:54.680
by such a big population. Putting your arms around it

26:54.792 --> 26:58.000
is difficult. And that has definitely meant that I don't

26:58.032 --> 27:01.416
think we have serviced a lot of needs, but I don't think we've

27:01.440 --> 27:05.634
serviced all of the needs which

27:06.414 --> 27:09.902
I know about and I can hear in the organization when we go around talking

27:09.918 --> 27:13.182
to people. So I think that is the space we've

27:13.198 --> 27:16.230
got more work to do. So you talked

27:16.262 --> 27:20.006
about it as a journey and you've been working on this agile transformation for three

27:20.030 --> 27:23.814
and a half years now. And you see there's more to come.

27:23.974 --> 27:27.582
How have you managed expectations internally about how long this is taking to do?

27:27.638 --> 27:31.490
Because often you get kind of organizations and senior leadership impatient

27:31.522 --> 27:34.890
to get things moving. How have you, how have you managed expectations

27:34.962 --> 27:38.642
around that? I suppose partly I've got one slide that

27:38.658 --> 27:41.774
I keep showing to everyone to the extent that they're probably a bit bored,

27:42.514 --> 27:46.034
which is our overall a very high level pathway that I talk

27:46.074 --> 27:48.574
about. So three big phases of work,

27:49.114 --> 27:52.894
the mobilisation phase that I spoke about at the start. How'd you get people started?

27:53.514 --> 27:56.098
The improved stage, which is what I think we're in now,

27:56.226 --> 27:59.402
we've mobilized the masses, we've still got a bit of work to do and we

27:59.418 --> 28:02.530
need to think about how do you turn that into a business as usual process

28:02.602 --> 28:05.186
as new people join graduates, apprentices,

28:05.370 --> 28:08.786
etcetera. But that's all in the spirit

28:08.810 --> 28:11.094
of we've got to get to an accelerate phase,

28:12.034 --> 28:14.974
but to accelerate we've got to improve our base systems,

28:15.274 --> 28:19.234
approaches, et cetera. So that's very much where we are. The axis

28:19.274 --> 28:23.490
that runs across the bottom is one of time, and my

28:23.562 --> 28:27.436
axis runs out to five years, and that's the slide I show

28:27.500 --> 28:31.660
everyone to get to acceleration. It will probably take

28:31.692 --> 28:35.524
us about five years to get there. That doesn't mean I don't get challenged

28:35.564 --> 28:39.356
on sooner. Faster, quicker. And I think that's fair

28:39.500 --> 28:42.064
in terms of that challenge into the system.

28:42.924 --> 28:45.984
But I guess there's a bit of a consistency of message around,

28:47.044 --> 28:50.868
and saying the same thing in multiple places,

28:50.916 --> 28:53.434
I think is helps.

28:54.374 --> 28:57.822
Do I think we could try and go even quicker in

28:57.838 --> 29:01.754
terms of that maturity? Yeah, we need to think about how we would do it

29:02.134 --> 29:06.126
in a more focused approach. But as ever,

29:06.310 --> 29:09.646
any business quite rightly, will be looking for a return on investment

29:09.830 --> 29:13.950
and were no different. So the longer you talk about

29:13.982 --> 29:17.198
that investment being returned, the heart of that conversation

29:17.246 --> 29:20.874
becomes internally. Yes, it's sort

29:21.374 --> 29:25.234
of exponential growth in systems. It just starts like that. Then it's that acceleration phase,

29:25.274 --> 29:28.282
isn't it? But it's having the patience to stay to there as well.

29:28.338 --> 29:31.834
Brilliant. What does it take to get people

29:31.914 --> 29:35.690
working from different functions and different disciplines that

29:35.722 --> 29:39.218
see the world so differently? They may even be located

29:39.266 --> 29:42.054
in different geographies and different generations?

29:42.474 --> 29:45.746
How do you bring them together to work in the service of.

29:45.770 --> 29:48.594
This is a big question, but I guess, like, when you think about that,

29:48.674 --> 29:51.642
what have been some of the lessons you've taken away? There's probably two bits to

29:51.658 --> 29:55.354
that. I think the first is I was also very fortunate

29:55.394 --> 29:58.586
enough to, at the same time as we were kind of

29:58.610 --> 30:01.658
embarking on this journey, there's also been

30:01.746 --> 30:05.642
a big journey about our behaviors,

30:05.778 --> 30:09.410
our culture, how do we show up as an organization?

30:09.602 --> 30:13.410
And again, I go back to what I said earlier, that's as much as agile

30:13.482 --> 30:17.884
as ceremonies and cadence,

30:18.384 --> 30:22.280
scrum, kanban, etcetera. And that's really helped

30:22.312 --> 30:26.072
us because people have, have taken to that, actually,

30:26.168 --> 30:29.376
and there is a noticeable shift, and the team that have been involved in it

30:29.400 --> 30:34.704
have done just an amazing job, really landing a

30:34.744 --> 30:38.720
new creator's code as we talk about it, a behavioral

30:38.832 --> 30:42.480
landscape. And that in itself has encouraged people to share

30:42.552 --> 30:46.544
and collaborate in a way that historically I haven't

30:46.584 --> 30:49.864
seen as much of over the years. So I think that gave a great

30:49.904 --> 30:53.328
foundation what I've always, I suppose, spoken a lot about

30:53.376 --> 30:57.032
then is then when you overlay that with some of the ceremonies

30:57.088 --> 31:00.040
that we put in place, things like, you know,

31:00.072 --> 31:03.208
sprint planning, sprint reviews, the showcases is a great one,

31:03.336 --> 31:06.896
which has really allowed us to. For people to

31:07.080 --> 31:10.384
show what they have achieved and celebrate it in a way we've

31:10.424 --> 31:14.800
never really done before that allows those behaviors

31:14.912 --> 31:17.728
to be anchored in something and make them live.

31:17.896 --> 31:21.392
So it takes a great conversation out of a conference room

31:21.448 --> 31:24.604
or a workshop. And in the workplace,

31:25.144 --> 31:27.364
this is how they live and they breathe.

31:28.704 --> 31:32.376
Managers and senior managers taking a step back and allowing teams to

31:32.400 --> 31:35.752
actually talk about their successes or talk about their problems in a way that we've

31:35.768 --> 31:39.280
never been able to do before. And that's where these two things,

31:39.312 --> 31:42.918
I think, fall together, you know? Yeah, there's a huge behavioral aspect of it.

31:42.926 --> 31:46.654
And like I said, I was a parallel program running and still running,

31:46.734 --> 31:50.542
which I think has been a massive enabler for us from an agile perspective.

31:50.638 --> 31:54.394
And enabling and creating a system that allows those

31:55.174 --> 31:57.894
behaviors to live, breathe, and be anchored in,

31:58.054 --> 32:00.734
I think, is a bit, we are starting to see,

32:00.894 --> 32:02.874
like I said, much more work to do.

32:03.734 --> 32:08.012
But I firmly believe that's how you make things

32:08.188 --> 32:11.812
live and sustain, and I think we're on a pathway to be

32:11.828 --> 32:14.684
able to get there. We've talked about what you enjoy. What do you find most

32:14.724 --> 32:18.756
challenging about the role that you're doing? I think the

32:18.780 --> 32:21.684
ambiguity is probably a bit of a double edged sword. So on one hand,

32:21.724 --> 32:25.612
I guess there's the curious want to

32:25.628 --> 32:29.164
go find out more person that loves it, and there's also a bit about,

32:29.324 --> 32:31.956
it would just be really nice if we could just be really clear about what

32:31.980 --> 32:35.100
we want to do by Friday and get it done and actually feel like we've

32:35.132 --> 32:39.396
done something, as opposed to drift around in space and explore

32:39.460 --> 32:43.196
and be not quite sure. We stop and we start, which I think

32:43.220 --> 32:47.116
has been a little bit of a challenge sometimes. And again, I talk back

32:47.140 --> 32:51.332
to the piece I've referenced a couple of times about the

32:51.348 --> 32:55.316
learning curve I've been through in terms of genuinely creating alignment

32:55.420 --> 32:58.932
to allow people to know what they're doing and

32:58.988 --> 33:02.024
for them to plan and to deliver that work.

33:02.734 --> 33:06.606
Um, yeah, sometimes clarity is a lovely thing

33:06.710 --> 33:10.134
that would. Would be brilliant to just sometimes

33:10.174 --> 33:12.462
make it. You know, this is what we're going to do, and we're heading in

33:12.478 --> 33:16.238
that direction, and we may find out in time. Actually, that direction wasn't

33:16.286 --> 33:19.966
quite the right direction, and we'll pivot. But I think sometimes you

33:19.990 --> 33:23.470
end up in a bit of a self contained circle, and you.

33:23.542 --> 33:26.950
You don't quite know which way you've ended up facing. And the challenge is

33:26.982 --> 33:29.670
you've got others looking at you to go, which direction are we going in Jag?

33:29.702 --> 33:33.502
And you're like, I'm not entirely sure which way I'm facing. So. And that feels

33:33.518 --> 33:37.366
very uncomfortable when people are looking to you for some level of direction and

33:37.390 --> 33:40.950
guidance, and that in itself causes frustration in

33:40.982 --> 33:44.422
them. So, yeah, navigating that ambiguity is

33:44.478 --> 33:47.646
probably the biggest challenge. So when you think about success in your

33:47.670 --> 33:50.086
role, how do you measure success? How do you know you've done a good job

33:50.110 --> 33:53.154
or you're doing a good job? Still standing at the end of the week?

33:53.894 --> 33:56.514
Always good. Sometimes that's an achievement. Yeah,

33:58.334 --> 34:01.474
I think there's, again, you know,

34:02.134 --> 34:05.374
that's probably a slightly boring narrative, I guess, through the context

34:05.414 --> 34:08.414
of this conversation about we're on a journey.

34:08.454 --> 34:12.134
And literally, the call I was just on before I joined this was about

34:12.254 --> 34:15.918
metrics and measurement. And I think in

34:15.926 --> 34:19.554
the early days, a lot of our measurement was around adoption,

34:20.054 --> 34:23.622
and it was quite some, it was, I guess, very rudimentary to some degree,

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you know, so we said we were going to mobilise x hundreds,

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thousands of people by these certain dates. Have we done it? Yes or no?

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I guess quite an easy way of measuring something. And then we started to move

34:34.964 --> 34:38.948
into a space about how well are people

34:39.076 --> 34:42.588
adopting the way of working, and have we got some of the basics

34:42.636 --> 34:46.140
in place. So are the basic ceremonies there are

34:46.172 --> 34:49.708
people using Jira, and are they using it to map their stories in

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the most appropriate way, et cetera? So again,

34:54.125 --> 34:57.637
it was very much in the space of the measure that was required

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at that point in time, because we weren't mature enough to measure anything more.

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Now there's a very real conversation, as we have now collectively

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learned a lot in terms of everyone involved in this,

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how do we really now start to know where delivering

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at speed we need to be able to deliver at? So you will hit some

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of the agile metrics in terms of predictability or

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velocity. And again, in the industry, there's a whole debate about whether you

35:23.798 --> 35:27.102
should use them, shouldn't use them, they can be gamified, et cetera.

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And I think we're trying to, and I recognize some of those conversations.

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I think we're just trying to chart our way through in terms of what makes

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sense for us. But we go back

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to the return on investment piece. How do we know we are actually now

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better, whatever that looks like in terms of speed

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of delivery or the achievement of value at more iterative phases,

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and it's those kind of measures we're really trying to get embedded now,

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utilizing the scrum master population that we built and using their collective

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knowledge to help drive some of that. But again, doing it in

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the right way. So this is a really important thing for me, isn't a top

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down edict that then the measures are used

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for corrective purposes in terms of you haven't

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done it right, and it's very much a stick, actually. And this is,

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you know, go back to, I guess, you know, other running theme from a

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cultural perspective, how do you use those matrix to help learn and improve?

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So it's now showing up this bit of the system isn't working well.

36:24.474 --> 36:27.770
Okay, so I'll go back to, again, something I've said.

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Why? What's happening? You know, is it a process? Is it

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the people, is it the system? Is it the tooling?

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You know, what, what is it that would allow us to make an improvement and

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when we make an intervention, again, allow us to measure it,

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to know that because of that intervention, we have done something better?

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Um, we're still, that's the place we're really on the cusp

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of now, trying to get, um, in place so that we, we can try

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and get our arms around a measure across the whole system. But again, I go

36:54.062 --> 36:56.910
back to such a vast system is quite, quite a challenge.

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Um, and as ever, your data out is

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only ever as good as your data in. Um. And like any,

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you know, we're no different to lots of other big organizations. Our size and scale.

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Managing data is an interesting

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journey, but critical. We can't, you know, at the very heart of it.

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Again, if there's a couple of things I've learned out of this, the requirement to

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be empirical and demonstrate return of value

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is foundational. And if we can't do that, it's a much, much more difficult

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story to tell. We've got some great qualitative feedback, like I said earlier about,

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you know, greater levels of collaboration, how people are feeling at work.

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Our emps scores are on a upward

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trajectory, sort of really positive, so people

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are feeling happier and the data is telling us in the main,

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we stopped, like I said, have our challenges. Now we've got to move on to

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that next level of empiricism to really demonstrate are

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we moving in the right direction, and can I demonstrate to our

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stakeholders that we're moving in the right direction and that this is definitely a

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path to still stay the course on? I guess just one question.

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So not everyone be in the situation where they can actually

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go all in on agile. They may be just leading

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a team or leading a function or an area. And you've

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referenced some of the classic agile tools, retrospective ceremony,

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sprints. What are those standalone tools,

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have you found? Yeah, they are so good. If I wasn't working in an agile

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organization, I would really get my teams to implement them because they really

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do make a difference. Probably a couple. So one is one,

38:31.458 --> 38:35.174
you just mentioned the retrospective. So I think again, I look back across

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large parts of my career and

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lessons learned and then you sort of really question whether we have learned that lesson

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or not. And so the ability to stand

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back and actually reflect what worked, what didn't, what would we do

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differently next time? And most importantly, use that

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for future work for me is brilliant.

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And it's one of those things I think almost

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becomes, it feels in some instances like a nice

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add on, but for me has become foundational. But both in terms of

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the work we do, but also from a personal level, to be able to sit

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back and go, that was really good. Yeah, that wasn't so

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good. Jag really, was it? If I really look at it, at the cold lighting

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day and the feedback I've got from others would tell me

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that that wasn't particularly good. So whether

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you call it a retrospective reflection, lessons learned,

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the essence is the same. So that is definitely one. But the other

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one I think, which is again, something I've got an increasing level of passion

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about, is the whole concept of planning,

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which I think is an undervalued skill in

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lots of organizations. And again, you know what I

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referenced earlier, that there is a slight fallacy in

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the agile world that it's all turn up on a Monday. Decide what you're going

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to do this week because you're adding value. You know, you're innovative

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and you're sort of on fire,

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but having the ability to really articulate

40:04.060 --> 40:06.948
what are we trying to go for? When are we trying to go for it?

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How will we know we get there and what's it going to take to get

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there? I think are skills that will

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mark the difference between organizations in the future that will go on

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and be hugely seller successful and those that may

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not because that allows you to organize your people

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and resources in a way that is at its most efficient.

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And you can see a lot of that happening at the moment in terms of

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just some of the challenges. Economically, we've slipped into recession, et cetera.

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No surprise lots of organizations are just scaling back investment and funding,

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et cetera, and are now looking for said efficiencies and

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I think a lot of it is within organizations grasps already if they,

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if they could get their arms around what genuine planning meant and

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then ultimately allowing teams to plan

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for themselves. And that for me is the holy grail of how this whole

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thing can work. So again, whether you use an agile cadence or not,

41:01.932 --> 41:05.500
actually isn't necessarily important. But being visual in your

41:05.532 --> 41:09.484
work, transparent about where you are, highlighting your problems,

41:09.564 --> 41:12.758
knowing there are opportunities to ask for help when you're blocked,

41:12.916 --> 41:16.706
those are all the fundamental elements I think that are part of

41:16.730 --> 41:20.134
it. But the planning bit I think is actually,

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I generally increasingly think it's an undervalued skill,

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but for me could well be the marker between good and great.

41:28.154 --> 41:31.298
So just a couple more questions for you. So you mentioned Rothley park at the

41:31.306 --> 41:34.650
beginning, so you've done some learning there. How do you invest in your own learning

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and development now? What does that look like for you? I try to read quite

41:38.978 --> 41:42.084
a lot. I do have a bit of a problem that I tend to start

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about four books at the same time and then get confused

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between them. But I think that's

41:49.420 --> 41:53.572
been a biggest source for me. Just literally working my way through lots of books,

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blogs, but going out to meet people in the industry,

41:57.332 --> 42:00.956
people who've done it, different organizations to us,

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their lessons, what have I learned? If I were you, Jake,

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this is the thing I would never do. Interestingly enough, still went and did them.

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So that's again been an interesting process.

42:11.634 --> 42:15.026
To the reflection point earlier, I'm not quite as disciplined as I like

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to be in terms of getting my thoughts down onto paper and journaling,

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but I do tend to do that on a fairly frequent basis because

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me, there is a point about getting stuff out of

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my brain through my arm, into a pen, on a piece of paper, and then

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seeing what's there and then reflecting back on it,

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but leaning into lots of other people and leaning on their experience.

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So, like, again, you know, danger of repeating

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myself on various fronts, but leaning on people who

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have got a deeper agile background and can talk much more well

42:46.958 --> 42:50.446
and articulate how to do estimation properly

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or how to write a story in Jira. You know, I'm not sat

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here pretending I've got that sort of real depth of knowledge,

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but just listening to people like that and observing things and

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noticing what could I do that would help me do

43:06.120 --> 43:09.088
my job a bit better and more broadly,

43:09.176 --> 43:12.960
just generally be an all round good person, I suppose,

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both in terms of the great concept. I read earlier this

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week, actually, about the concept of the portfolio life replacing the

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whole concept of work life balance, which I thought was really interesting.

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And I think it is broadly in that perspective, without necessarily getting into the

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weeds of the technicalities of it, it's now all

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very much intermingled and blurred, I suppose.

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So I try to look at things as holistically as possible, and when I

43:37.318 --> 43:40.726
do read, sometimes it isn't. They're not just books on agile, for example, but they're

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broader books on spirituality or

43:44.518 --> 43:48.374
philosophy or history to some degree or degree

43:48.414 --> 43:51.504
description. So I kind of go broad. I need to actually start finishing some of

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the books I start, though, is probably the biggest thing. We really want to inspire

43:54.584 --> 43:58.144
the next generation of OD practitioners coming through. So they

43:58.184 --> 44:01.480
may or may not have OD in the title. They may be working internally,

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they may be working externally. But what advice would you give

44:04.736 --> 44:08.136
someone who's starting out in OD now? I think first and

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foremost, just be curious, that's the biggest thing. And apply

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quite a critical thinking lens. You know, always ask the question,

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why? Or what is this there to serve?

44:19.918 --> 44:23.774
Never be satisfied with the answer you get first time around, because inevitably

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there's an answer that goes behind it. And just

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follow your nose in some instances, and follow your instincts, because I

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think a bit to the agile space. There are different schools

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of thought in the OD world, and some you will lean to

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more than others. That's not to say the others are wrong by any stretch.

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That's just a position people take.

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But again, from a, you know, curiosity perspective, I think there was something that

44:50.902 --> 44:53.974
definitely resonated when I started, I guess,

44:54.014 --> 44:57.526
particularly masters at Roffey park of different schools

44:57.550 --> 45:00.982
of thinking, which just opens your eyes up to different

45:01.038 --> 45:04.862
constructs and then challenging those constructs, because just because

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someone's written about them doesn't mean they're right, per se. And I

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think all in the context of, you know, if people are interested in

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creating great working environments that

45:15.840 --> 45:19.504
offer real value for people in terms of how they

45:19.544 --> 45:22.728
see themselves fitting into an organization, how do you create

45:22.776 --> 45:26.000
optimal organizations that allow those people to fit in

45:26.032 --> 45:30.016
them, then? I think whether OD is formally in your title or

45:30.040 --> 45:33.600
not doesn't necessarily matter, because a bit, like I said, I think I was doing

45:33.632 --> 45:36.752
that stuff and didn't know until someone told me that

45:36.768 --> 45:40.536
there's this field called organization development, and I wouldn't

45:40.560 --> 45:43.368
let that prohibit you. I think it's, you know, be,

45:43.496 --> 45:47.096
just be curious first and foremost. And it's

45:47.160 --> 45:50.360
amazing where just asking some questions can sometimes lead

45:50.392 --> 45:53.920
you. Jack, I want to say a huge thank you. I've really enjoyed

45:53.952 --> 45:57.432
this. Thank you for answering all our questions with real precision

45:57.488 --> 46:00.688
and care as well. I think people watching this will have got so much value

46:00.736 --> 46:03.320
from it. I think some of the things I'm going to take away from it

46:03.352 --> 46:06.914
is like your job is easy until people enter the equation,

46:07.614 --> 46:11.334
dedicating time to do the thinking. You know, the importance of blocking good

46:11.374 --> 46:15.046
quality timeout two 3 hours and making sure that you're

46:15.070 --> 46:18.398
aware that you're actually creating value while you're doing that. Away from the operational aspect

46:18.446 --> 46:22.230
of it, the importance of middle managers in change and engaging

46:22.262 --> 46:25.902
them in the process and empathizing with their challenges,

46:26.078 --> 46:29.798
and also finding measures that record impact that allow people

46:29.846 --> 46:32.702
to steer the job and steer the system, rather than it being a sort of

46:32.718 --> 46:36.792
a top down measure as well. Also, the importance of retrospective perspectives and

46:36.848 --> 46:40.056
planning is planning is an undervalued tool that we

46:40.080 --> 46:43.856
bring to organizations. And I love these last things. Be visual in

46:43.880 --> 46:46.720
your work, be transparent with where you are,

46:46.912 --> 46:50.728
be curious, follow your nose and follow your instincts. So I think people will got

46:50.776 --> 46:53.648
taken so much from this. So thank you, Jake. No, it's not a problem at

46:53.656 --> 46:57.248
all. Really enjoyed it. First podcast. So yeah, no,

46:57.296 --> 47:00.936
it's a great experience. I have a feeling this another way for me to learn.

47:01.080 --> 47:03.458
I was going to say, I think that might be the first of many.

47:03.586 --> 47:05.514
It has been a fab conversation, so thank you.