Personality: A User's Guide with Nikita Mikhailov - OrgDev Podcast Episode 11

We're all born with a particular genetic makeup that shaped by our environment and our life experiences. But we're not born with a manual for how to use that personality in our work, how we make sense of the world, how we create relationships, or how we change things about ourselves as well

So to help us with that we've invited Nikita Mikhailov onto the OrgDev Podcast. Nikita is passionate about studying human beings. He's a psychometrician he's just launched his brand new book personality a user's guide, and this reflects a decade dedicated to the field of psychometrics. In his career, he's worked with Fortune 500 companies and is a lecturer for Hult Business School! 

You can order your copy of Nikita's book here:  https://amzn.eu/d/1tT5XdR

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live

We'd love to connect with you on Linked In:
linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
https://www.linkedin.com/in/garinrouch

Transcript

WEBVTT

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Hi, and welcome to the Aug Dev podcast. Now, we're all

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born with a particular genetic makeup that's shaped by our environment and our

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life experiences. But we're not born with a manual for how to

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use that personality in our work, how we make sense of

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the world, how we create relationships, or how we change things about

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ourselves as well. So to help us with that, we've actually invited Nikita

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Mikailov. And Nikita is passionate about studying human

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beings. He's a psychometrician. He's just launched his

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brand new book, Personality A User's guide. And this reflects

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a decade dedicated to the field of psychometrics.

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In his career, he's worked with Fortune 500 companies, finance,

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banking, transport, construction, aerospace, to name a

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few. That was a good introduction. Thank you. So I'm not even halfway yet.

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We have more positive things to say with the narcissism, why don't you?

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On top of that, he's also a lecturer for halt international business

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school. He's developed assessments. He uses them with individuals,

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couples, which we're absolutely intrigued about,

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teams and also helped people qualify to use them as well.

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As we mentioned, he's just launched his new book as of February 15, which is.com

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with Georgie Jankoff. Yes, we're both, we spent the whole weekend

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devouring this book at speed. I've got little tabs all through it.

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Shows of your personality, Danny. Absolutely. And I just have

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folded over pages. So again, that probably says a lot about me. And already

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it's a number one bestseller on Amazon as it's a user

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guy. So it really combines a nice blend of, of theory and

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input, but real practicality as well. And it sort of really lays

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the foundation about how personality works, the definitions and

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the elements of what it takes to actually help influence your personality

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and develop it too, as well. And actually sort of busts a few myths along

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the way. So absolutely delighted to have Nikita join

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us. One of the really nice quotes that Nikita said in one

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of his webinars is we're all special, we're all messy,

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and we're all unique, and we all share some commonalities as well.

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And I think that's a really nice place to start because really want to understand

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what is personality and why does it matter?

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So welcome, Nikita. Well, thank you so much for such an introduction.

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And at least it's nice to see three books have been sold,

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one to me and two to you to

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answer your questions. What is personality and why does it matter?

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Well, the first one we don't know, and the second one, it depends,

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because at the end of the day, we don't know what personality is.

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That's what makes it very interesting. I mean, in the book, we give five different

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definitions of personality according to the American Psychological

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Association APA, which represents over 100,000 psychology,

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150,000, last time I checked, to different professors,

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to different speakers. All of this, and we can't define it,

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it seems, which is fascinating in itself, because it

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doesn't stop us from using it every day, such as, how often do you hear

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people mention the word personality? Such as, next time you take your earpods

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out and listen to, not that you do, but know, just in passing,

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somebody says, oh, you know, my boss's personality or my cat's personality,

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or, you know, I bought this chair because of personality.

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It had real character, because often it's interchangeable.

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So we still use the psychological construct of personality in everyday language

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without actually having the defined definition for it. And I guess this answers the

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second question, why it matters because people use it. There's something

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we find inherently useful in it. And to me, it goes back

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to the first personality assessment, which is the zodiac is the star signs.

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You get asked one question, well, actually, there might have been before the

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Zodiac. There might be other personality assessments. It just kind of lost track through time.

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But you're asked one question, when were you born? And you get twelve types.

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Popular type models only have 16, so only four more than

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twelve. Took us, like, a thousand years to come up with that. And each

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character, each star sign has its own characteristics, like Leo's.

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Emma. Leo's is clearly the best. So kind of more extroverted,

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dominant, all of this. And, you know, and then the other

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thing is, how do they match with other characters, like virgos?

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And there's this whole kind of whole libraries on this. How different

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stuff? Well, I guess there's libraries, but probably several books,

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but probably typical of a Leo to do hyperbole.

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But the key thing is there's probably several books on how different star signs

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interject. There's also different books on type, how different types

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get together, or the big five, how different traits get together. And to

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me, when we look back at the history of psychometrics and how it evolved

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over literally millennia, people a like to look at the star,

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like to look for patterns. But basically, people love to look for patterns

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to explain individual differences. So before we looked for patterns in the stars,

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now we look for patterns in your Twitter feed and what words you use through

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the natural language processing or data scraping.

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Okay, so people like to look at patterns. They like, to identify

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individual differences. They like to use it to self reflect my star sign,

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but they also like to see, oh, well, this is how I get on,

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because I don't get on with John because he's a Virgo and stuff like that,

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or because he's an InTJ or because he's extroverted or neurotic

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or you name it. The key thing is the language is different,

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the frame, but the need for it seems to be universal.

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Cool. You mentioned there the big five, and that's a kind of a thread throughout

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your book. You talk about the big five. Can you just explain to the audience,

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kind of people listening a bit more about the big five and what that is?

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Because we have quite a broad audience. So some people will be quite accomplished in

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psychometrics, and people, some people will be taking their first steps into it as well.

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So definition is always really useful, isn't it? Absolutely. And I would take any

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excuse to talk about big five, especially cup of tea. And this is a very

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rare time because I've been asked to talk about it rather than just talking

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about it without. The floor is yours, Nikita.

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Anyways, but moving on now to the big five. So basically, there were two

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dudes, Allport and Albert, in 1930s, who very

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interested what the French were doing with intelligence testing,

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which later has become IQ assessments. And so we're like,

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okay, we want to create a personality assessment, but where should we

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start? So they decided to go down the route, which is called psycholexical

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psychology of language, because the idea was, if there's some difference between you

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and I, by now throughout human history, we should have came up with a word

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for it. And they picked up an english dictionary in 1930s

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and identified every word they had to think

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with. Character, personality, individual differences. Any guesses how many

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they picked? No. Can't remember. I'm sure it was in the

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book. I can't remember. Are they going to test this on the book here?

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Twelve. Close 17,908.

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So afterwards, what has started is factor analysis.

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So to look which words came together. So, for example, if you're angry,

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are you also frustrated? Likely to be frustrated? If you're

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sad, are you also likely to be depressed? If you're anxious, are you more likely

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to be worried? If you're exuberant, you might more likely to be, you know,

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whatever exuberant people are. Let me just switch off outlook.

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And so it's just to give

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an understanding what kind of things go together. And there's a huge

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amount of debate, at which point it kind of came up. But basically,

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through data analysis and all of that good stuff, by 1980s,

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we have arrived at those 17,908 words gravitate

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around five factors. So, like, there's five points of gravity.

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So one of them is neuroticism. So what comes to your mind when

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you hear the word neuroticism? Like a nervous disposition?

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Anxious. Nervous disposition, anxious.

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Yep. So basically close. So neuroticism has to do with negative

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emotional affect. So people have neuroticism, but if you score

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higher neuroticism, you're more likely to experience that affect more often.

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So more day to day kind of depression,

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anxiety, vulnerability, self consciousness, all that stuff?

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Well, every no to neurotics are the same. They experience different negative

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emotional effects for different reasons, but they're just more likely to experience more often.

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You're also more likely to worry about, like, things that can go wrong. Now,

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if you're low on neuroticism, doesn't mean you're not neurotic. But there's a colleague of

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mine, Gordon Curfew, says your level of your neuroticism is the length of

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your fuse, so you can put up with more negative stimuli until you have a

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negative emotional reaction to it. Now, if you ask,

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do people want to change their personality? 80% in America when

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that particular sample said that they want to be less neurotic.

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So people don't want to be neurotic. I have rarely had clients who want to

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be more neurotic. Neuroticism has a very strong cultural

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bias. So in some countries, it's more okay to be neurotic than in others.

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Also, people want to be low neuroticism. But the issue,

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if you're low neurotic, if stuff doesn't happen in your life, which causes you

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emotional negative effect, you don't have the coping mechanisms. You don't recognize

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negative emotions, because if a high neurotic feels negative emotions,

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it's like Simon and Garfunkel, hello, darkness, my old friend. Somebody low

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on neuroscience. Negative emotions. Like, what the hell is this?

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And therefore, there's also potentially another

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aspect to this, that when something happens in your social group,

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to a friend that's low in neuroticism, your other friends say, don't worry,

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they'll be fine, but actually, because they see them as more resilient day

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to day. But actually, this is why we need to check in on yellow and

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high neurotics. And, you know, we need to salute also high neuroticism because,

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as Bob Hogan says, are more contempt. Ancestors got eaten.

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There's benefits to high neuroticism. Like what? The worst things that

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can happen are famous last words for a reason. But as this wonderful

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quote on Facebook. So I know it's true that society

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needs pessimist and an optimist. The optimist builds the airplane,

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the pessimist a parachute. And I think with so much focus on,

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like, no glass half full. No, it's like the whole

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glass full, half empty. It's both half full and half empty at the same time.

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It's not in either or. It's an end. And therefore, we need to

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kind of make sure that we value both ends of this. And this is why

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my job title is chief neuroticism officer, because I see so many chief

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happiness officers running about LinkedIn. You're trying to balance

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them out. Somebody needs to fly the flag for negative

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emotional hack. You know, every film starts off with.

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Every disaster movie starts off with a scientist being disregarded.

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That's saying, oh, my God, something's awful is going to happen.

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And halfway through the movies, I realize, oh, crap, the scientist might have been right.

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And I feel that so many in corporates, when I see, like, a big mess

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up, like, you know, be it from putting really dodgy

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advertising to doing really unethical stuff.

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And when they get caught and I go, I wonder, when they

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actually were meeting about this ad, was it somebody high on your rods and

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going, don't you think people might see it this way? It's like, quiet down,

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John. Stop being so negative. They just wonder if I could just see that

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meeting when the event, whatever happened, was green lighted,

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was a neurotic voice being toned down in the room.

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Like, I stopped being so negative. Yeah, because in the book, you talk about the

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importance of yin and yang, don't you? Darkness and light. And it's

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the organization's ability to tolerate that diversity, which is

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critical to its success. Well, it's how you facilitate. It's not

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even yin and Yang. It's how they move together. And there we come to

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extroversion, which is positive emotional effect.

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So people have an extraversion, tend to experience positive effect more. So they

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tend to be more positive and outgoing,

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potentially. And they need this energizer of being sociable to get

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energy from interacting with lots of people. But same as neuroticism has a social

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bias, so does extroversion. Introversion, because we always put the extraversion on the pedestal,

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because remember, that sample of 80% of them wanted to be less neurotic

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and they wanted to be more extroverted so it's a very socially

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desirable trait. A lot of extroverted items

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are like, I'm fun to be around. Well, people probably gonna say

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yes to that. Who people would say, I'm miserable to be around.

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So it's. What's important here is that, again,

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there's a social bias towards one, especially in our culture,

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rather than the other. So, for me, often people say introverts are

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asocial or antisocial. Well, actually, being antisocial

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is psychopathy, which is a bit different.

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Or there's loners, they're unemotional, they don't care.

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And it's like, no, I always say introverts are just extroverts with

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good taste. They're just more selective what

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and who they want to socialize with. So.

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And extroverts often see introverts as rejecting of them,

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because you're presenting and you're so excited about what you're

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presenting about, and you want other people to feel excited, too,

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to validate, like, outwardly. And they're there,

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poker faced, and cross their arms, and you go, they don't like my

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presentation. And then you think, oh, where's this video on YouTube about

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body language? And it said that if they're cross armed, they don't like you.

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So all of a sudden, it escalated. And both of those things might be

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true, but what also might be true is that you're just more introvert and

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they're just listening to you, and they didn't do anything to show this

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to you. You treat this lack of display

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as a presence of something else, but it might be just listening. Same as introverts

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often don't speak up in meeting because the extroverts never shut up.

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Yeah, I really like that tip in your book about, if you're an

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extrovert and you ask any questions, just take that 15

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2nd gap and let you know. Create the space for people, to your

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interest to have a think and go, yeah, actually, I've got a question.

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I really like that. Exactly. It's so simple because

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that's the key thing. As an extrovert, it's so hard to shut up. So whenever

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I see this LinkedIn post, five things it takes no effort to. It's like to

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listen. I'm just like, not if you're a bloody extrovert. You know, it's just like

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you're eager to say something. So the moment that the speaker

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pauses and go, any quack, you go, right, right. Just been waiting five minutes.

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I didn't listen for the last five minutes. I just had my question. So when

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extroverts present, they think it will be the same, that there's

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somebody who's just going to jump immediately, like them at that.

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At that question. But another kind

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of thing you can do, especially if you're facilitating a discussion, I always

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ask people to talk to the person next to them, such as, what were your

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takeaways? What's your questions about the presentation? Or, you know, what would you like to

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know more? Talk to the person next to you and then ask for group participation.

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So they already have run it through with somebody, one to one, and then they're

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more likely to participate. And an interesting

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thing, again, you sort of talk about the book, is obviously you have the big

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five, but they don't stand in isolation. So you've got, like,

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extroversion and agreements. One of the things you talk about, the fact is, if you

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have a leader, and it's like a unique blend of those ingredients, make them

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the person you talk about, like a leader who is emotionally stable,

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high in openness, and extroverted, would be described as

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charismatic. But charismatic doesn't equal effective.

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So there's something around how those five unique blends come together to create you,

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aren't they? Oh, I'm so happy you mentioned that, because it's how they interact.

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So I had a client, high extroversion, openness, and. No, high extraversion,

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low neuroticism. So happy chappie. And I asked him,

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because to me, what's most interesting, especially in leadership, is not your personality.

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It's how you relate to your opposite. And we'll get on to, why is that

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important? But I asked them, how do you relate to more emotionally dynamic colleagues?

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And he immediately said, oh, when they come to me with their emotions, it's also

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always watch out when people use the word their before describing other people's emotional states.

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Don't score that high on empathy, usually. And they go, when they come to me

15:19.296 --> 15:22.392
with their emotions, they tell them two things, and I go, which are because,

15:22.448 --> 15:26.112
one, nobody died. Two, they should grow up. And I

15:26.128 --> 15:29.604
go, what if this doesn't work? He goes, I just want them to hr.

15:30.104 --> 15:33.368
So, as my friend Paul Harry says, it's very hard to define

15:33.416 --> 15:36.824
emotional intelligence, what it is, but it's very clear when people don't have it.

15:36.944 --> 15:40.112
So. And then, of course, we have openness, which is

15:40.128 --> 15:43.552
about creativity, things world differently, agreeableness, how well you relate to others,

15:43.608 --> 15:46.232
and conscientiousness, straight self drive and purpose.

15:46.288 --> 15:49.896
So neuroticism, extroversion, openness agreeableness, conscientiousness.

15:50.000 --> 15:52.192
And again, one of the things that the book that we really enjoyed is because

15:52.208 --> 15:54.764
it's very easy to be very sort of self like,

15:55.104 --> 15:58.520
reflective when it comes to personality. But it is in relation to others.

15:58.552 --> 16:01.904
And that's the critical part, isn't it? And that does shape our personality

16:01.944 --> 16:05.462
and how it develops completely. Because our personality doesn't exist in

16:05.478 --> 16:08.838
a vacuum. We're connected to everything. You know,

16:08.966 --> 16:12.590
your personality, it's a two way street. It's the same as, you know,

16:12.662 --> 16:16.550
nurture versus nature. There was this whole debate, but it becomes much

16:16.582 --> 16:20.702
more interesting when you replace the verses with. And so it's nature and nurture.

16:20.838 --> 16:24.214
It's about your environment and your personalities

16:24.294 --> 16:28.086
that combines into behavior. But your personality influences what environments

16:28.110 --> 16:31.762
you seek out. And the environments you're in influence your personality.

16:31.938 --> 16:35.258
And it's a two way street. And this is

16:35.386 --> 16:39.018
one of the reasons I think we can define personality, because it's so fluid.

16:39.146 --> 16:42.618
We can see sort of layers of personality. Stuff you like, stuff you do,

16:42.666 --> 16:46.738
stuff you do too much. That shows up nicely with Hogan suite.

16:46.786 --> 16:50.762
So the values, then bright side, then dark side. Then you

16:50.778 --> 16:54.706
have other assessments which tap into it like Lumina spark with their underlying everyday

16:54.730 --> 16:58.164
overextended. So you have this theme emerging

16:58.204 --> 17:01.556
in personality assessments, while Hogan has been doing it since the mid eighties,

17:01.700 --> 17:05.684
is that there's layers to it. So we can't quite define what exactly

17:05.724 --> 17:08.796
it is and we can't pin it down, but there seems to be layers to

17:08.820 --> 17:12.372
it. So between your preference, your behavior, your maladaptive response. Yeah. So one

17:12.388 --> 17:14.780
of the things you talk about. So you said just then that lots of people

17:14.812 --> 17:17.972
who are high in neuroticism want to change that, and people want to be

17:17.988 --> 17:21.388
more extroverted. So you talk about kind of changing personality in

17:21.396 --> 17:25.004
the book that it's possible to do. It's not fixed. It is possible to change

17:25.044 --> 17:26.984
personality. It's just hard.

17:28.644 --> 17:31.628
First of all, do you really need to change it? So first of all,

17:31.796 --> 17:34.892
to what extent is cultural biases? Like the 80%

17:35.028 --> 17:37.972
is just general population? We don't know if they're neurotic or not. They just want

17:37.988 --> 17:40.464
it to be less neurotic. To me,

17:41.164 --> 17:44.724
it's also one of the best catches in personality. For example,

17:44.764 --> 17:47.940
neuroticism. Neuroticism basically exists

17:48.012 --> 17:51.484
on three pillars. Well, one is negative emotional cell,

17:51.524 --> 17:54.752
so negative self construction. So all what we explore when we

17:54.768 --> 17:58.400
talk about personality is the self construct, the self narrative, the story you tell

17:58.432 --> 18:02.336
yourself. Because when you work with a psychometric you're not working with a report you

18:02.360 --> 18:05.256
work in with a person and their narrative and the way it shows up,

18:05.280 --> 18:08.672
when they're asked 200 questions about themselves, how it shows up.

18:08.768 --> 18:11.848
But what we're testing is the narrative. That's what we're assessing,

18:11.936 --> 18:15.632
and that's what manifests itself in the report. So to me, whenever I'm

18:15.688 --> 18:18.892
using the psychometric, I would always ask a client, how would you describe yourself?

18:19.008 --> 18:22.604
That's the first step. And then we kind of build how they see themselves.

18:22.684 --> 18:26.252
And the thing with neuroticism, people have a negative attitude towards their

18:26.268 --> 18:30.100
self construct, so they're not happy with who they are. So this is why,

18:30.132 --> 18:33.684
for example, because of confirmation bias. If you tell somebody,

18:33.844 --> 18:37.172
give feedback to a high neurotic, they'll probably remember the negative

18:37.268 --> 18:41.076
words first. They might kind of quickly skim over. They might not

18:41.100 --> 18:44.716
even read the positives. They just go to the areas of development just like

18:44.740 --> 18:47.918
that. And even if they read them, maybe in the days they'll remember

18:48.046 --> 18:51.406
all the negative points, they'll probably add a few. They'll forget half of the

18:51.430 --> 18:54.590
positives. And the weeks they go, what positives? I have so much to work on

18:54.702 --> 18:57.966
because it's more aligned with their self negative attitude

18:57.990 --> 19:01.726
towards the self construct. So when work with a high neurotic colleague, a make

19:01.750 --> 19:04.594
sure that you meet them at the time where they have energy.

19:05.694 --> 19:09.030
So not Friday, 06:00 p.m. when they've been running home coffee

19:09.062 --> 19:12.910
all the time, maybe, you know, have a nice kind of sit down

19:12.982 --> 19:16.776
in the morning or afternoon, nice, chill out and ask

19:16.800 --> 19:19.560
them to play back what they feel. That went well. You know, all of this.

19:19.592 --> 19:22.176
When you give them positive feedback, ask to play it back in their own words.

19:22.280 --> 19:25.672
So you do everything to make sure that it landed. But if you want to

19:25.688 --> 19:28.616
kind of ask them what they can do better or,

19:28.640 --> 19:31.360
you know, stuff like that, they'll probably give you a bigger list than the development

19:31.432 --> 19:34.752
points you have in your review. But the issue is that if you want to

19:34.768 --> 19:38.344
work on neuroticism, first you need to address the negative self

19:38.384 --> 19:41.960
construct. Because if you say, I'm neurotic, I don't like this

19:41.992 --> 19:45.662
about myself, I need to change the first thing you're doing. You're feeding your neuroticism.

19:45.758 --> 19:49.654
You're feeding that negative construct about yourself. But actually, how about first

19:49.694 --> 19:53.630
saying, okay, one has neuroticism? Worked well for me because high neurotics,

19:53.662 --> 19:57.514
if you ask them about the past, especially if they're high on conscientiousness

19:57.934 --> 20:01.790
and openness, does your mind come up with options of, you know, once stuff

20:01.862 --> 20:04.846
happens and, you know, you come back and say, oh, if I've done something differently,

20:04.870 --> 20:08.390
it would have been better. So, well, does your mind ever come up with an

20:08.422 --> 20:11.242
option if you've done something different, couldn't be worse. And go,

20:11.258 --> 20:14.330
oh, I never think of that. It was like, doesn't that sound slightly biased?

20:14.442 --> 20:17.890
So let's explore when that neuroticism kept you out of trouble. Oh,

20:17.922 --> 20:21.378
you know, and where was the benefit of this? Or when your neuroticism

20:21.426 --> 20:25.242
really spikes? Maybe, like, Friday evening because you're so tired and,

20:25.338 --> 20:29.010
you know, and how can we work with this?

20:29.202 --> 20:32.786
And there's this danger of pathologizing, this, like,

20:32.850 --> 20:35.986
imposter syndrome. It's not a syndrome. It's just, it's okay

20:36.010 --> 20:39.292
to have moments of self doubt. Like, you know, who doesn't? You know who has

20:39.388 --> 20:44.244
less self doubt? Psychopath. So if you have strong imposter

20:44.284 --> 20:47.852
syndrome, look at the bright side. At least it's unlikely you're antisocial psychopath.

20:47.988 --> 20:51.540
You know, and I recently asked a forensic psychotherapist

20:51.572 --> 20:54.564
that actually, I was like, is it actually true? And she goes, yeah, you're less

20:54.604 --> 20:57.900
likely to have in a critic an imposter syndrome and stuff

20:57.932 --> 21:01.652
like that. Therefore, we need to look at the bright side of neuroticism.

21:01.708 --> 21:05.588
We need to potentially look at the humorous side and actually talking about humor.

21:05.676 --> 21:09.120
They've actually done the research where it shows there's a correlation between good

21:09.152 --> 21:12.408
performance and stellar performance, between people who score

21:12.456 --> 21:15.840
average on neuroticism have good performance, but people who score of the scale

21:15.872 --> 21:19.764
on neuroticism have stellar performance, and that is stand up comedy.

21:20.504 --> 21:24.008
So I think humor plays a fantastic part in disarming

21:24.056 --> 21:27.664
our neuroticism. Instead of thinking, okay, it's my

21:27.704 --> 21:31.480
imposter syndrome. Does it stop you from doing stuff

21:31.512 --> 21:35.056
you want to do? No. Well, maybe it's okay to have moment of that.

21:35.080 --> 21:38.448
Maybe you're not as reckless. You know, let's think about it. Or, you know,

21:38.536 --> 21:42.440
it's, you know, it's the inner critic. Yeah. It tries

21:42.472 --> 21:46.384
to keep you out of trouble, you know, try to keep you over

21:46.424 --> 21:49.728
committing to stuff, potentially. So let's look at the bright side of this.

21:49.816 --> 21:53.080
The things that was humor. When you can, and you can disarm

21:53.112 --> 21:56.384
it, but if you just want to be less neurotic because you don't

21:56.424 --> 21:59.112
like yourselves, that actually reinforces your neuroticism.

21:59.208 --> 22:03.040
Different sort of scores and different traits are there? Or what's the relationship

22:03.072 --> 22:06.346
between pressure and stress? Well, I'll give you the typical answer.

22:06.370 --> 22:09.706
It depends. So how can you tell that? There's a couple

22:09.730 --> 22:12.938
of tell signs if an article on well

22:12.986 --> 22:16.946
being and stress is written by a person who knows psychology and

22:17.010 --> 22:20.106
person who doesn't. So first thing is takeaway.

22:20.130 --> 22:23.594
The article starts with the words all psychologists agree, or psychologists

22:23.634 --> 22:27.026
agree. Dot, dot, dot. Psychologists never agree on anything. And there's

22:27.050 --> 22:30.270
probably psychologists who never agree that psychologists never agree. Fair enough.

22:30.302 --> 22:33.334
If you're listening to that, I feel you and hear you. But the key thing

22:33.374 --> 22:36.838
here is that. Second, one thing is that when they describe well

22:36.886 --> 22:40.654
being, a psychologist would always put down subjective, subjective well

22:40.694 --> 22:43.894
being, because what's well being can stress for me, is very different

22:43.934 --> 22:47.310
to what's stress for you, etcetera. But stress is this wonderful word that

22:47.342 --> 22:51.094
people think is completely universal. And when you work with teams, it's really

22:51.134 --> 22:54.390
interesting to explore a how stressed are they now, if they write down a little

22:54.502 --> 22:57.610
number on a piece of paper and, you know, and then we hold them up

22:57.742 --> 23:00.706
and some people will be 10% stressed and some people 90,

23:00.850 --> 23:04.210
and they're working in the same team. Yeah, because the reason

23:04.242 --> 23:07.586
we're asking the question, well, with Myers Briggs, there was some work done by

23:07.650 --> 23:10.874
Naomi quink and about being in the grip, for example.

23:10.914 --> 23:14.594
And so there's certain patterns of things, but there's different triggers for every person.

23:14.754 --> 23:18.042
It's about people taking responsibility for their own mental health and obviously the

23:18.058 --> 23:21.666
influence of the environment as well. But what tips do you have for people to

23:21.690 --> 23:25.266
sort of maintain balance? And often when we're having a full stressful moment,

23:25.290 --> 23:29.090
it's almost too late. So how can you apply your awareness to

23:29.202 --> 23:33.234
really support you, to make sure you prevent, rather than have to cure stress

23:33.314 --> 23:36.666
or pressure? First of all, stress, pressure, and our reaction

23:36.690 --> 23:40.162
to it served us well to this point, because there were some circumstances

23:40.218 --> 23:43.938
when reacting to this kind of triggers in this particular way was beneficial,

23:44.066 --> 23:46.946
but that's first thing. So we need to acknowledge that has worked for us.

23:46.970 --> 23:50.498
That's why they're there. It's just the circumstances might have changed.

23:50.666 --> 23:54.330
What worked for you before might not. What works for you now in this particular

23:54.402 --> 23:58.226
company, it can even change between companies. Let's say what's acceptable in

23:58.250 --> 24:00.134
one is not what's acceptable in the other.

24:00.954 --> 24:04.354
But what's really important here is that first, acknowledge that

24:04.474 --> 24:07.570
it's there for a reason. It's not a byproduct, it's not

24:07.602 --> 24:10.754
some toxicity in you, etcetera. It has

24:10.794 --> 24:13.930
worked for you, so it's

24:13.962 --> 24:17.826
great. Second, just know when you're more likely to be stressed and

24:17.850 --> 24:21.738
by what. So, for example, if you're more likely to be stressed by attention

24:21.786 --> 24:25.254
to detail, and when you get a brief,

24:25.374 --> 24:28.126
just go through it and you go, okay, what's going to stress me out the

24:28.150 --> 24:31.022
most here? What's going to take the most energy? What's going to stress me out?

24:31.118 --> 24:34.486
And most people will potentially procrastinate and leave it to the last moment, which is

24:34.510 --> 24:38.430
most likely to stress them out. And though some people might use that stress

24:38.462 --> 24:41.566
to actually kick them into gear and get stuff done. But the key thing

24:41.590 --> 24:43.654
is that when you get the project, and this is where it comes to working

24:43.694 --> 24:47.006
with others, just think, okay, which parts I find most difficult to stress me out.

24:47.030 --> 24:50.118
And look around my team, who I can delegate this to, to. So if attention

24:50.166 --> 24:53.934
to detail stresses you out, you going over your PowerPoint at 02:00 a.m.

24:54.094 --> 24:57.382
before the presentation might not be the best. But buying a coffee at

24:57.398 --> 25:01.006
02:00 p.m. to your colleague and going through the slides together, and they can spot

25:01.070 --> 25:04.726
mistakes without even reading them, which I think is borderline magic.

25:04.830 --> 25:06.914
When people just look at a piece of text and go, here, here, here,

25:06.944 --> 25:09.342
here, and here, I'm just like, you haven't read. It just stands out for me.

25:09.358 --> 25:12.606
Angela. Bloody hell. So, you know, you can work

25:12.630 --> 25:15.998
with them, or, you know, you're going to be particularly stressed by interacting with a

25:16.006 --> 25:19.054
particular stakeholder. Okay, who interacts with the stakeholder? Well,

25:19.094 --> 25:21.782
in your team. Okay, how about have a chat with them as I have a

25:21.798 --> 25:25.710
meeting coming up? What's your tips? You know, it's. It's immediately thinking,

25:25.742 --> 25:29.262
okay, it's not all on me, but how I can facilitate collective intelligence

25:29.318 --> 25:32.494
around me in order to get stuff done in the least stressful way

25:32.534 --> 25:36.086
possible. And then, of course, you know, things like self care, what gives

25:36.110 --> 25:40.278
you energy to make sure it's intertwined in your diary and

25:40.366 --> 25:43.466
all of that stuff. But, yeah, I would suggest, first,

25:43.630 --> 25:46.762
your stress response there for a reason might not work that well in

25:46.778 --> 25:50.394
your current settings, but might work well in the previous ones and

25:50.434 --> 25:54.010
just kind of working with that proactively but also appreciating that it's

25:54.042 --> 25:57.090
there rather than something that you need to get rid of. So,

25:57.122 --> 25:59.826
Nikita, are you saying that I can make a list of tasks to delegate to

25:59.850 --> 26:00.574
Danny?

26:02.794 --> 26:06.614
Yeah, you can, just while we're recording.

26:07.114 --> 26:10.426
Likewise. But, you know,

26:10.450 --> 26:13.530
it's like what the stepper Perel says. And I love her stuff on relationships.

26:13.682 --> 26:16.330
The psychotherapist. She says, you know, in couples,

26:16.522 --> 26:19.706
just every week write down three things you want the other partner to do more

26:19.730 --> 26:22.666
towards you, and they write down three things they would like you to do more

26:22.690 --> 26:26.226
towards them and stick it on your bathroom cabinet. Great. I'm glad we

26:26.250 --> 26:29.698
touched that, because the couple's counselling is a really interesting area.

26:29.746 --> 26:32.962
But, Daniel, I'll let you press on with your question. Yeah. So we've

26:32.978 --> 26:36.770
talked a lot about personality in the workplace. So are there particular aspects of personality

26:36.802 --> 26:40.362
you think are underappreciated in the workplace or aspects that are overplayed

26:40.378 --> 26:43.170
or given more priority than they should?

26:43.362 --> 26:47.482
Well, it depends, again, in what places, like, in what histories

26:47.538 --> 26:51.458
and what environments and what cultures. I was just thinking, generally, in the organizations

26:51.586 --> 26:55.346
you're working in, do you often see that? Certain. I guess maybe

26:55.370 --> 26:58.618
in leadership, particularly as people, we look at

26:58.626 --> 27:01.754
a lot of the leaders that we see. They tend to be extroverted.

27:01.794 --> 27:05.186
They tend to demonstrate that stuff. What's the role

27:05.210 --> 27:08.866
of, for example, introverts as leaders? We don't see as many role models for

27:08.890 --> 27:12.194
that in the workplace. That's a good question. So as far as introversion.

27:12.234 --> 27:15.730
Extroversion, there's a good book by Susan Cain called quiet Confessions

27:15.762 --> 27:19.122
of a passion. No, that's quiet. The power of introverts

27:19.138 --> 27:22.298
in the world that can't stop talking. There's also a good TEDx talk by a

27:22.306 --> 27:25.094
guy called Brian little called confessions of a passionate introvert.

27:25.474 --> 27:28.898
And they kind of. Yeah, they describe this quite well. But what we

27:28.906 --> 27:32.814
know from research is that extroversion is correlated with desire for power.

27:33.154 --> 27:37.066
Extroverts want it more. But as Garen.

27:37.090 --> 27:40.716
Right. You previously mentioned that just because they want it charismatically

27:40.780 --> 27:44.788
and they're charismatic doesn't mean they're effective. And the same with extroverts. There's no correlation

27:44.836 --> 27:48.428
with effectiveness as a leader, but because they want it more, they're more statistically

27:48.476 --> 27:52.604
likely to end up in positions of power, which I think then fuels our stereotypes

27:52.644 --> 27:56.452
of extroverted leaders, which then kind of comes back to

27:56.468 --> 27:59.996
the cycle that we see extroverts more as leaders, they're more likely to become leaders.

28:00.140 --> 28:03.540
And with introverts, they're less likely to draw attention to themselves, necessarily,

28:03.572 --> 28:07.372
and less likely to actually want positions of power. So compared to

28:07.428 --> 28:10.908
extroverts, generally speaking. So the

28:10.956 --> 28:14.660
issue becomes then, that you have more extroverts, former stereotypes

28:14.692 --> 28:18.132
based on that, and you have less introverts. But introverts can bring

28:18.188 --> 28:21.804
a lot to positions of power. Like most of my high leadership

28:21.964 --> 28:25.212
in organizations I work with often don't listen. So they

28:25.228 --> 28:28.412
can be described as? They describe themselves as highly empathetic. But I go,

28:28.508 --> 28:32.252
well, if you don't listen, what are you empathizing to? Or you

28:32.268 --> 28:35.616
often get like, oh, Nikita, can you come in and do a workshop for us?

28:35.640 --> 28:38.512
Because they're all so introverted. They never speak up. My team.

28:38.568 --> 28:42.472
And. And then you attend their meetings and you go, yeah, maybe that's one

28:42.488 --> 28:44.888
of the reasons. But did you notice you never shut up the whole meeting?

28:44.936 --> 28:48.952
So when was it supposed to speak up? And, yeah, I'm really

28:48.968 --> 28:52.496
enjoying the position that you're talking about there. Is it the role of the occupational

28:52.560 --> 28:56.304
psychologist to go in and to question assumptions and to help people

28:56.344 --> 29:00.288
make sense of, like, if you're doing psychometrics to help people really sort

29:00.296 --> 29:04.484
of operationalize their insights. Like, what is the role of an occupational. Occupational psychologist?

29:05.264 --> 29:08.896
Depends on the settings. Occupational psychologists work across a whole plethora

29:08.920 --> 29:12.296
of settings, from human factors, ergonomics, well being, design, all this.

29:12.400 --> 29:16.304
My area of speciality is psychometrics. I'm a psychometrician.

29:16.424 --> 29:19.656
So for me, what's really important here is that if at the beginning of the

29:19.680 --> 29:22.912
workshop, I just say, or any program we're doing, I will say, look, if by

29:22.928 --> 29:27.192
the end of this, we can be a couple percent more curious about ourselves

29:27.248 --> 29:31.004
and others and a couple percent less judgmental about ourselves and others,

29:31.754 --> 29:35.162
it will be a success, because, like, for example, this comes to the point

29:35.218 --> 29:39.066
of, let's say everybody currently likes to bash MBTI,

29:39.210 --> 29:42.938
but MBTI sells more than pretty much all the psychometrics combined.

29:43.066 --> 29:46.498
And I think that a lot of criticism for MBTI is

29:46.626 --> 29:50.234
actually might be a little bit of sexism, maybe because it's

29:50.274 --> 29:53.306
only psychometric. One of the few psychometrics created by

29:53.330 --> 29:56.506
women, mother and daughter, and is still more successful than

29:56.530 --> 29:59.966
anything else. Like, by far, most psychometrics are designed by

29:59.990 --> 30:03.514
bolding man. So I think I'm just about ready to make my own assessment.

30:03.934 --> 30:08.094
But, yeah, also middle aged. So more reasons to create a psychometric,

30:08.134 --> 30:11.638
clearly. But the key thing is that MBTI is, though, people criticize

30:11.686 --> 30:14.710
it and all of this, but it's still useful for what it is. Let's say,

30:14.742 --> 30:17.718
for example, if you score high on extraversion,

30:17.806 --> 30:21.222
if you do your assessment half an hour, if you do a coaching session,

30:21.358 --> 30:24.426
an hour, and if you do a team workshop a day, so, you know,

30:24.450 --> 30:27.674
one and a half days investment like Max, let's be honest.

30:27.794 --> 30:30.970
And then if you're a high extrovert, you realize that just because people

30:31.002 --> 30:34.554
are introverted doesn't mean they reject you. And if you're a high introvert. You realize

30:34.594 --> 30:38.674
that unless you tell an extrovert what you want, they won't ask you necessarily

30:38.794 --> 30:42.290
or listen to you because they're not psychic. So you need to communicate.

30:42.402 --> 30:45.626
Is there just like one thing you take away for the rest of

30:45.650 --> 30:49.124
your life from a 1 hour, one day engagement?

30:49.274 --> 30:53.376
More or less? That's a huge return on investment, because that will make

30:53.400 --> 30:57.848
your life easier going forwards. So from my perspective,

30:57.936 --> 31:01.688
my role is to get people a bit more curious about themselves

31:01.736 --> 31:04.568
and others starting to question their self narrative.

31:04.696 --> 31:08.504
Because, you know, we update software on our phones and laptops and,

31:08.624 --> 31:12.280
you know, printers. So printer

31:12.312 --> 31:15.824
in the corner. Couldn't think of any other devices anyway. Well, probably smart

31:15.864 --> 31:19.016
fridges as well, you know, regularly. But how often do we

31:19.040 --> 31:22.624
update who we think we are? That narrative doesn't get updated very often.

31:22.744 --> 31:26.424
And even when people tell you, like, my partner might go, Nick, you're being argumentative.

31:26.464 --> 31:29.664
And I go, no, I'm not, because we disagree with stuff that doesn't

31:29.704 --> 31:33.056
confirm to our bias. So it's kind of locked in. And it becomes

31:33.080 --> 31:36.664
even more interesting than when you ask people why they manage their personality.

31:36.744 --> 31:39.824
So I might be working with a senior executive in their forties and fifties,

31:39.864 --> 31:42.834
and I say, what do you manage about your personality and work and why?

31:42.944 --> 31:46.198
And say, well, you know, I need to be less emotional at work.

31:46.366 --> 31:49.526
Why? And they go, because my first manager told me I should not be so

31:49.550 --> 31:52.950
emotional at work. When was that? Oh, when I was 20, working in the neighborhood

31:52.982 --> 31:57.214
shop. And I go, and now you, managing director of multinational,

31:57.374 --> 32:01.662
you know, things have changed, but people have been managing their personality

32:01.838 --> 32:05.494
based on that little bit of feedback. So how often you

32:05.534 --> 32:08.966
update this? So, for example, even just questioning somebody, okay, next time somebody

32:08.990 --> 32:11.810
comes to you with a piece of feedback, instead of saying, no, I'm not this,

32:11.942 --> 32:15.002
ask them, when was the last time they seen you do this? Or can

32:15.018 --> 32:17.962
you tell me a couple of times when they interpret your behaviors this way?

32:18.058 --> 32:20.778
Because this was where it becomes fun. If you're in a room of twelve people,

32:20.826 --> 32:24.130
there's twelve versions of you, there's how you see yourself and how eleven

32:24.202 --> 32:28.330
people see you. And each sees you differently because they differently interpret

32:28.362 --> 32:32.186
your behaviors. They see a different time points in time. There's little twelve

32:32.250 --> 32:35.562
versions of you, and you only know one, so wouldn't be fun to go

32:35.578 --> 32:38.682
around. And next time, instead of say, sorry, I disagree, this is not me,

32:38.698 --> 32:41.614
you go, when was the last time I showed this? Like, when did you interpret

32:41.654 --> 32:45.190
this? You know, this is fascinating. And then if and

32:45.222 --> 32:48.558
then if another key thing is that when people immediately want

32:48.566 --> 32:51.982
to change their personality, like that, 80%. So people say, how can I

32:51.998 --> 32:55.110
be this? How can be that? But the beauty is that we often work with

32:55.142 --> 32:58.446
people who are very different to us, and your life can

32:58.470 --> 33:01.686
be so much easier than if you don't obsess about how you can be more

33:01.710 --> 33:04.886
of this or that. Doesn't matter what. Like, more vulnerable?

33:04.950 --> 33:08.128
Well, is that really a good thing? Because to me, like, when people say,

33:08.246 --> 33:11.628
you need to be more vulnerable, it implies there's a threat you're vulnerable to.

33:11.756 --> 33:15.148
So maybe we should address the threat first before encouraging

33:15.196 --> 33:18.748
people to be vulnerable. Just saying. Or, you know, when people need to

33:18.756 --> 33:22.460
be more empathetic, like, really. Maybe they're already really empathetic,

33:22.532 --> 33:25.636
or they should be more trusting. Well, what if they're already trusting? Because,

33:25.700 --> 33:29.140
BoJack Horseman, it's very funny. When you look at people with rose tinted

33:29.172 --> 33:32.580
glasses, all the red flags appear like ordinary flags. Maybe they shouldn't be more

33:32.612 --> 33:36.132
trusting. Or maybe when people should be tougher. Well, maybe already some people see

33:36.148 --> 33:39.502
them as, so maybe they shouldn't be more tough. All of this kind of

33:39.558 --> 33:43.550
advice on personality is what you should do more as a leader.

33:43.662 --> 33:47.374
It's just what's in vogue right now. And usually rust goes

33:47.414 --> 33:50.942
for about two years, and then it kind of comes back again. Gross mindset is

33:50.958 --> 33:54.542
a good example. Hot five years ago, and it was hot again.

33:54.678 --> 33:58.086
There's no more evidence to support this. There's actually pretty much almost no

33:58.110 --> 34:01.946
evidence to show it has any connection with anything of importance.

34:02.110 --> 34:06.026
And so, and there's meta studies which shown this, but it

34:06.050 --> 34:09.522
still comes back because people find it useful. It's, to me,

34:09.658 --> 34:13.266
growth mindset, fixed mindsets. Again, yin and yang, same stuff,

34:13.370 --> 34:16.858
different package. Or, as in personality, we have plasticity,

34:16.906 --> 34:20.130
stability. It's just with yin and yangs, there's appreciation of

34:20.162 --> 34:23.202
both. With growth and fixed mindset, it's one sided.

34:23.338 --> 34:26.738
And, you know, gross mindset is correlated well.

34:26.826 --> 34:30.719
It's mappable to what's called plasticity of personality.

34:30.751 --> 34:34.519
It's extroversion and openness. What we want to give more ammunition for extroverts to talk

34:34.551 --> 34:38.287
about themselves, like, oh, you should just get the gross

34:38.335 --> 34:41.363
mindset. No, this is a risk analysis. You know, we need one,

34:42.063 --> 34:45.359
being so fixed mindset right now. Let's see how far that

34:45.391 --> 34:48.975
gets you. So, and to me, what's really important is that we

34:48.999 --> 34:52.167
value both. And same as in teams and organizations,

34:52.215 --> 34:55.996
we value both sides of the coin. So whether we talk about growth and

34:56.020 --> 35:00.012
fixed mindsets. I was like, okay, you can have growth, which is about innovation,

35:00.148 --> 35:03.044
but what we talk about fixed, I often call it nurturing.

35:03.204 --> 35:06.620
You nurture ideas and relationships, so I call it implementation.

35:06.692 --> 35:10.100
And you also get stuff done, and you need innovation and implementation to

35:10.132 --> 35:13.972
have manifestation. And it's a cycle. Implementation drives innovation.

35:14.028 --> 35:17.004
Innovation drives implementation. So we're back to yin and yang.

35:17.164 --> 35:20.326
So it's a dynamic between the two that counts.

35:20.380 --> 35:23.746
And for that dynamic to work, you need to respect both sides. So if your

35:23.770 --> 35:27.210
culture on, like, one of my favorite things is to put people to write down

35:27.242 --> 35:30.362
or stand on the quality, if I'm using the map, stand the quality which you

35:30.378 --> 35:34.074
feel this organization encourages you the most to be, and then stand the quality

35:34.114 --> 35:37.962
of the ones you appreciate and others the most. So sometimes organizations,

35:38.058 --> 35:41.186
we need to be this, this, and this. It's really fun. Like, when you work

35:41.210 --> 35:43.826
with this, what you like, what you do, what you do too much, you so

35:43.850 --> 35:46.666
often find people who like to be creative, but don't get the chance to be

35:46.690 --> 35:49.790
every day because they work in logistics and the management's

35:49.822 --> 35:52.886
decision, oh, they're still not creative. We just need to get the creative person in

35:52.910 --> 35:55.558
there. But is it really going to work or is it just going to become

35:55.606 --> 35:58.702
like them or quit? And maybe we can change some of the cultures and the

35:58.718 --> 36:01.878
job descriptions of the team, give that more creativity

36:01.926 --> 36:05.470
a space. And we did actually have a question from a viewer

36:05.542 --> 36:09.126
who actually wanted to ask a specific question about that, didn't we, Danny? We did,

36:09.150 --> 36:12.462
yes, Sarah, because we posted on LinkedIn that we're going to be talking to

36:12.478 --> 36:14.446
you. And she came up with a couple of questions, and one of them was

36:14.470 --> 36:17.942
about which personality traits are most strongly associated with the kind

36:17.958 --> 36:21.806
of growth mindset. It's very hard to

36:21.830 --> 36:24.998
measure constructs like growth mindset, fixed mindsets,

36:25.126 --> 36:28.374
because it depends. But to me, when we look at this

36:28.534 --> 36:32.350
research, we know there's plasticity of personality, which is extroversion, and openness and

36:32.382 --> 36:36.006
stability. It's called the meta factors, or alpha and beta. And stability is low

36:36.030 --> 36:40.046
neuroticism, agreeableness and conscientiousness. So, and both sides,

36:40.070 --> 36:43.102
and most of us are a mix of both. As Garen previously mentioned,

36:43.158 --> 36:46.686
none of us exist in isolation. But some people with very strong extroversion

36:46.710 --> 36:50.042
and openness will be always talking about their ideas, and they're always going to be

36:50.058 --> 36:53.834
very excitable by them because it has to do, potentially, with the dopaminergic system.

36:53.954 --> 36:57.442
So people who score on this trait when they get a promise of

36:57.458 --> 37:00.426
a reward. So if you put people into an fMRI tube to look at the

37:00.450 --> 37:04.890
activity of your brain and people who score high instability plasticity,

37:04.922 --> 37:08.690
people want to go, you're going to get a reward, and they get a reward.

37:08.802 --> 37:12.562
So they have activation. Both groups have activation in

37:12.578 --> 37:16.172
the brain areas we associate with reward. But what's really fun is

37:16.188 --> 37:19.516
that people high on plasticity will get activation at the promise of the

37:19.540 --> 37:22.956
reward. And potentially it has to do with dopaminergic activation as

37:22.980 --> 37:26.300
well. And dopamine doesn't make you feel good. Dopamine makes you feel on edge.

37:26.412 --> 37:30.084
So this kind of jumping up and down. And often introverts will see

37:30.124 --> 37:33.476
extroverts as labradors. You know, they're just so excitable. You know,

37:33.500 --> 37:36.836
they're just, oh, that's, you know, this, this request for proposal comes in,

37:36.860 --> 37:39.212
I'm gonna win that, and then it's gonna lead to more work, and then I'm

37:39.228 --> 37:42.720
gonna take over the world. You know, it escalates quickly. As an anchorman,

37:42.752 --> 37:46.568
it was said, but the key thing is that you're more people.

37:46.616 --> 37:50.136
High instability. Go. We haven't even submitted the proposal. We haven't even won it.

37:50.160 --> 37:54.056
Why are you so excited? We haven't delivered it yet. And so

37:54.120 --> 37:57.968
there's this misconception. And so, to me,

37:58.016 --> 38:01.776
growth mindset in practical work, I think, is associated highly

38:01.800 --> 38:05.384
with plasticity. But what's associated with what people call fixed mindset

38:05.464 --> 38:08.808
is stability. It's about relationships. It's about getting stuff

38:08.856 --> 38:12.134
done. It's about delivery, you know, and it's about

38:12.254 --> 38:15.654
also doing stuff in a predictable way. And I think what's really

38:15.694 --> 38:18.734
important here is that, you know, we say that, okay,

38:18.814 --> 38:22.878
growth has a good part, which is all about creativity,

38:23.006 --> 38:26.914
ideas going into ambiguity, coming up with ideas in ambiguous situations.

38:27.414 --> 38:30.614
But so the stability, which is about delivery and relationships,

38:30.774 --> 38:33.942
and so, and both can be overplayed.

38:34.078 --> 38:37.726
If you have growth which is uncontrolled, you have chaos.

38:37.870 --> 38:41.430
If stability is not innovated, you have fixed. But same

38:41.462 --> 38:45.502
as you can overplay yin and yang when we look at that framework.

38:45.638 --> 38:49.222
So I have no idea what I'm talking about beyond the vicar PD entry at

38:49.238 --> 38:52.606
this point. No, no, no. It's not about

38:52.630 --> 38:55.814
not demonizing either the kind of either or is it about,

38:55.934 --> 38:59.566
as you said before, it's not either or is. And it's blending. It's blending the

38:59.590 --> 39:02.790
two. The irony, if you make it more positive on one

39:02.822 --> 39:06.270
side than the other, it's more likely to be less productive. Because if you have

39:06.302 --> 39:09.938
your friends, let's just say, okay, growth mindset is fantastic.

39:09.986 --> 39:13.738
You know what all those growth mindset extroverts will do? Because extroversion is also correlated

39:13.786 --> 39:16.914
with narcissism, isn't it, Bernard?

39:16.954 --> 39:20.058
I knew I was right. Joanna. You just have a fixed mindset. When you

39:20.066 --> 39:24.306
were asking me all those nitpicky questions about budgeting for Nigeria or.

39:24.330 --> 39:27.802
Now some people talk about infinite mindset, like, that's not freaking dangerous.

39:27.858 --> 39:31.810
Infinite mindset on a finite planet. Yeah, we're focusing on

39:31.842 --> 39:35.768
mining, gastrointestinal anyways, but. And circular

39:35.816 --> 39:39.440
economy. And that's great, but instead of actually looking

39:39.512 --> 39:42.952
back and thinking, okay, if I value

39:43.008 --> 39:46.192
this, how can I value the other more? How can I

39:46.208 --> 39:49.320
go to my people with fixed mindsets and say, what do you need more from

39:49.352 --> 39:52.488
me to play to your strengths instead of putting gross

39:52.536 --> 39:55.976
mindset on a big flag and starting to wave it around everywhere?

39:56.120 --> 39:59.424
And I think that if we don't come

39:59.464 --> 40:03.146
in with a. To me, whenever I use any psychology model in

40:03.170 --> 40:06.970
practice, it has to have the depends because a classical psychologist joke,

40:07.002 --> 40:10.498
you know, what's a psychologist answer to every question? It depends.

40:10.626 --> 40:13.522
And the longer you're in the profession, you realize it's true because it depends on

40:13.538 --> 40:16.626
a lot of variables. You cannot make a decision.

40:16.730 --> 40:20.210
You cannot say something is good, something is bad. So whichever model I

40:20.242 --> 40:24.042
use within the corporate, it always, it's usually bimodal and

40:24.058 --> 40:27.876
it usually says both sides are good and both sides can be overplayed.

40:27.940 --> 40:31.540
And it depends when. So never use a test of assessment

40:31.572 --> 40:35.304
of something that's called a bright side or a dark side of personality.

40:35.684 --> 40:39.268
Like, you know, what's emotional intelligence, what's not, what's working

40:39.316 --> 40:42.588
for you, what's not. We cannot tell that from a

40:42.596 --> 40:46.196
typical psychometric what's working and what's not. So I would

40:46.220 --> 40:49.636
never come into a company using a model which says one is good, one is

40:49.660 --> 40:53.776
bad, because then I might be inadvertently increasing

40:53.920 --> 40:58.136
stereotypes and biases within the company which might not do that organization any

40:58.160 --> 41:01.904
favors. You argue really strongly in the book about the importance of diversity.

41:02.064 --> 41:05.544
Managers will often recruit in their own, like, even when you put checks and balances

41:05.624 --> 41:08.568
in place, you know, when they're interviewing, they'll often say,

41:08.656 --> 41:11.952
there's just something about that candidate that just is really appealing about them.

41:12.008 --> 41:15.944
And often it's because they're like them. How do you start to integrate

41:15.984 --> 41:19.352
diversity into an organization and whose responsibility is it? You know,

41:19.368 --> 41:22.572
if you start to invite people in that have got a different approach,

41:22.708 --> 41:27.224
different sort of personality traits or whatever, we often have a response,

41:27.644 --> 41:30.924
how can we start to create that diversity in our organizations?

41:31.044 --> 41:34.740
Well, first I would suggest that the diversity might be already there.

41:34.932 --> 41:37.584
It's just culture doesn't allow it to come out.

41:38.004 --> 41:41.404
So maybe first we need to address through culture so you can even

41:41.444 --> 41:44.596
look at your personality profiles that you have done before and do a little

41:44.620 --> 41:47.880
bit of data mining. So you can say to the companies

41:47.952 --> 41:51.072
that use the psychometrics, use, can we do some data mining? You know,

41:51.088 --> 41:54.872
we gave you all that money for the profiles. Can we just understand,

41:55.048 --> 41:58.856
is there particular traits which are more prevalent in particular departments

41:58.880 --> 42:01.912
or across the company? And then you'll find that, you know, we get lots

42:01.928 --> 42:05.272
of extroverts. Then you can look at, you get a pool of people

42:05.328 --> 42:08.400
who just went through your selection process and ask them how was it?

42:08.592 --> 42:11.832
And also get their personality. So, oh my God, we recruited a lot

42:11.848 --> 42:15.176
of extroverts. Then you can go, I found the job description to be

42:15.200 --> 42:17.284
really appealing. It said, fun environment,

42:19.344 --> 42:22.604
have high pace and you must have a good sense of humor.

42:23.984 --> 42:27.504
And then you can go, okay, where did we advertise this? Oh, you know,

42:27.544 --> 42:31.200
we advertised it in a website. Has to do with vacancies

42:31.232 --> 42:33.964
in sport. I don't know, or, you know,

42:34.664 --> 42:37.808
but it's actually who gets to see those job

42:37.856 --> 42:41.236
descriptions. Are those job descriptions attracting particular kinds of

42:41.260 --> 42:44.972
personalities or demographics as well? And, you know, how is the selection

42:45.028 --> 42:48.516
process structured? Does it require a person to come into central

42:48.580 --> 42:51.700
London for a day of activities and fun? And then we all go out drinking

42:51.732 --> 42:54.860
and that's where the real selection begins. And, you know,

42:54.972 --> 42:58.348
so people who wanted a quiet night immediately get selected out.

42:58.476 --> 43:02.396
So it's just, the thing is that it's very important that

43:02.420 --> 43:05.564
we. That was hyperbole, by the way. I'm not saying companies actually select

43:05.604 --> 43:08.852
based on that, but on drinking and pubs, I don't know,

43:08.868 --> 43:11.356
maybe some people do, I don't know. We do some work in the city,

43:11.460 --> 43:13.944
so that's still okay there, actually.

43:14.924 --> 43:18.236
But yeah, it's just really important here is that you look

43:18.260 --> 43:21.932
through the whole selection process, starting with where's the job is advertised,

43:21.988 --> 43:25.812
job description, selection process. And also, then you also look

43:25.828 --> 43:29.996
at particular culture. Let's say if you have short term bonuses which

43:30.020 --> 43:33.492
are based on your individual performance, don't expect a lot of empathy

43:33.508 --> 43:36.956
and vulnerability in that environment. Or if,

43:36.980 --> 43:40.686
you know, you're very, in a very heavy regulated

43:40.750 --> 43:45.030
environment, there's only so much creativity you can have. After all, creative accountancy

43:45.062 --> 43:48.714
has a very different connotations with that word creativity.

43:49.214 --> 43:53.462
So it's looking through kind of more systemic,

43:53.518 --> 43:56.874
I guess that's, that's a cool word, systemic to use for this case.

43:57.614 --> 44:01.326
But first, look at the culture. Ask people done anonymous survey,

44:01.350 --> 44:05.038
you know, what aspects of your personality consciously manage at work. For example, see if

44:05.046 --> 44:08.566
there's any common themes. Maybe some of the assessments you already use in

44:08.590 --> 44:12.894
your company can give you an indication of that. Choose carefully.

44:12.974 --> 44:17.870
Take your time and always haggle. So choose

44:17.902 --> 44:21.270
carefully. There is different models out there, and the issue is that

44:21.302 --> 44:25.286
most providers only sell you one. So the consultant you're talking to

44:25.310 --> 44:28.438
will just sell you one assessment because that's what they're trained for,

44:28.486 --> 44:31.732
that's what they get commissioned for. So it's very hard to get,

44:31.788 --> 44:35.356
like, actual opinion about this assessment. So you

44:35.380 --> 44:38.972
need to gather it yourself. So one way to do it,

44:39.148 --> 44:42.964
talk with an occupational psychologist. Specialize in psychometrics who doesn't have affiliation

44:43.004 --> 44:46.224
with any particular publisher. Say, what are the assessments?

44:46.724 --> 44:50.044
Also try to find in your network people who already use that

44:50.084 --> 44:53.588
assessment and ask them how they find it. Not only how they find use

44:53.636 --> 44:57.750
assessment, but also what support they get from the publisher, what can be,

44:57.942 --> 45:01.326
how proactive the publisher is in supporting them. And do they get value for

45:01.350 --> 45:04.982
money? And just ask them what are the problems with the publisher as well.

45:05.118 --> 45:08.662
If you're going to be using assessments for selection, always look for the name of

45:08.678 --> 45:11.434
that assessment and the word tribunal in Google,

45:12.334 --> 45:15.526
because a lot of tribunals are

45:15.550 --> 45:19.294
public right now. There was even a report on Sky News about one which

45:19.334 --> 45:22.714
that publisher doesn't use anymore, so not that applicable,

45:22.754 --> 45:26.850
but it's a good learning experience. Also, you can

45:27.002 --> 45:30.538
approach the british psychological societies. They do reviews of assessments, so you

45:30.546 --> 45:33.050
can source them for 30 quid. You can get like a review of a particular

45:33.122 --> 45:36.546
assessment just from an independent body. So you can do

45:36.570 --> 45:39.858
also that. But mainly, I would say, ask around your network,

45:39.986 --> 45:43.442
talk with the publisher as well, what support they can provide, what's the limitations

45:43.498 --> 45:46.962
of the tool, etcetera. Talk about things like neurodiversity

45:47.018 --> 45:50.834
and assessment, how it might be impacted. Talk about best

45:50.874 --> 45:54.322
practice, what they can do to ensure you good service and yada,

45:54.338 --> 45:57.578
yada, yada. And then have a. So if

45:57.586 --> 46:00.666
you're going to be using it for development of your senior leadership group, after you've

46:00.690 --> 46:04.322
selected maybe one or two assessments, ask the publishers to support you,

46:04.338 --> 46:07.914
was given a pilot within the company, so get the senior leadership group,

46:07.954 --> 46:11.402
let's say in this case, to complete one, two, three assessments and

46:11.418 --> 46:14.682
then ask them what they thought about it, of course. Also complete it yourself

46:14.738 --> 46:18.312
and ask somebody to debrief you. I forget that step. So. And when you

46:18.328 --> 46:21.808
complete it, always look at the items which you're completing

46:21.936 --> 46:25.640
because this is what your clients will see as well. And make a note like,

46:25.672 --> 46:29.216
okay, this item, which I'm asked this question doesn't make sense to

46:29.240 --> 46:32.512
me. Make a note of it. So next time you talk to the publisher,

46:32.528 --> 46:35.920
you say, sorry, what does this item exactly measure? Because if it didn't make sense

46:35.952 --> 46:39.656
to you, it might not make sense to your clients. There's some weird, freaky items

46:39.680 --> 46:43.682
out there, let me tell you. And. And then

46:43.818 --> 46:46.650
have a debrief with a consultant. If you enjoyed this tool,

46:46.722 --> 46:50.346
make a list of three. Two. Send it to your demographic, get them to complete,

46:50.370 --> 46:54.210
get their feedback, what works best, what they found most useful, and only

46:54.282 --> 46:58.218
after this, sign up with one particular tool. But at that point,

46:58.266 --> 47:02.362
haggle for the price. If you're a corporate, if you think you

47:02.378 --> 47:06.154
already can, roll it out, okay, we're going to buy 500 portraits

47:06.274 --> 47:09.266
or reports. What is the best price you can give us to qualify? Five of

47:09.290 --> 47:12.972
us. I thought of your question. Danny, this is Sarah again, who asked another

47:13.028 --> 47:16.260
great question, wasn't it? So Sarah had one more question, which was, how can understanding

47:16.292 --> 47:19.904
personality inform our leadership development programmes and coaching?

47:20.564 --> 47:23.588
Well, it's back to the subjectivity, because with personality,

47:23.636 --> 47:27.292
you realize that if you're doing leadership development with personality, psychology is

47:27.308 --> 47:31.132
that everybody is different. So everybody sees leadership differently. So one of

47:31.148 --> 47:34.276
my favorite things to do when you do a leadership workshop is if you couldn't

47:34.300 --> 47:37.750
use the word leadership, what word would you use? And most

47:37.782 --> 47:40.574
people will have different ones. Some people use mentoring, some people use,

47:40.654 --> 47:44.070
you know, drive. Some people say, motivation all their jazz,

47:44.102 --> 47:47.942
because everybody has a different idea what leadership is. And there's no academic

47:48.078 --> 47:52.154
definition of leadership, is there? Researchers don't agree on it so

47:52.654 --> 47:56.718
good. But the key thing is that it's,

47:56.806 --> 48:00.142
again, it's subjective. It's leadership. Going back to

48:00.158 --> 48:03.750
the word stress, people think are so wonderfully objective. So what stress

48:03.782 --> 48:06.462
for me is what's stress to you? What leadership for me is? What's leadership to

48:06.478 --> 48:09.766
you? And best of all, what leadership is for me is the same to the

48:09.790 --> 48:12.114
people I lead. That's where it gets interest.

48:14.294 --> 48:17.494
I think what's also really important is that a lot of leadership

48:17.534 --> 48:21.278
development is using frameworks without asking the delegates,

48:21.326 --> 48:24.646
what's it useful for? So how often companies spend hundreds

48:24.670 --> 48:28.038
of thousands on leadership program, but when the leaders turn up to the program

48:28.086 --> 48:30.782
to go, what the hell is this? What is this? Why am I here?

48:30.918 --> 48:34.300
And when you go to HR. HR says no, but we told their managers

48:34.332 --> 48:38.028
to tell them about this exciting program that they're on and how special

48:38.076 --> 48:40.904
it is. Like, their managers have the freaking time, honestly,

48:41.564 --> 48:44.620
you ask their managers to tell them how awesome the program is instead

48:44.652 --> 48:47.732
of actually working on a psychological contract, let's say,

48:47.828 --> 48:50.676
with each individual on the leadership development program.

48:50.820 --> 48:54.212
So I would always want to run the leadership development program. I always have one

48:54.228 --> 48:57.660
to ones first to walk them through their psychometric profiles of 360,

48:57.732 --> 49:00.880
what have you. But what's really important here is that you ask

49:00.912 --> 49:04.432
them to then talk to their manager or a couple of their colleagues or look

49:04.448 --> 49:08.112
at their performance reviews over the last couple of years and highlight ones in positives

49:08.128 --> 49:11.976
in one color development areas and other. They can triangulate between the

49:12.000 --> 49:15.896
feedback they get from others and their performance review and say, and the only question

49:15.920 --> 49:19.080
I want you to ask is, you're on this leadership development program for three months.

49:19.192 --> 49:22.160
There's one quality as a leader you'd most benefit from developing.

49:22.192 --> 49:25.176
What would it be? So you can ask your colleagues, you can ask your manager

49:25.200 --> 49:28.894
if you're in a good relationship with them. It's important you have your own motivation,

49:29.014 --> 49:33.054
and the personality assessment can help you triangulate. Like, you know, like going

49:33.094 --> 49:36.634
back then, you mentioned high extroverts. Leaders will count to 15,

49:37.094 --> 49:40.278
you know, or be class. Just. Just for the giggles. Let's see.

49:40.326 --> 49:44.070
Banham meeting changes. You know, just go wild, you know,

49:44.102 --> 49:47.134
or if you want to really push the boat out after somebody finished talking,

49:47.174 --> 49:50.846
can you listen to them? Wow. Say if there's anything else they'd like to add,

49:50.950 --> 49:54.466
but that's kind of a big push there. Already listened to them for like

49:54.490 --> 49:58.450
ten minutes, so. But the key thing is that

49:58.522 --> 50:01.986
is just so you have your own motivation, what you want to take away from

50:02.010 --> 50:05.370
the leadership development program. And then I think the key thing

50:05.442 --> 50:09.210
is facilitating collective intelligence. I have seen so

50:09.242 --> 50:12.334
many presentations, which is death by models and PowerPoint.

50:13.034 --> 50:16.634
It's incredible. Some people try to jump in ten separate

50:16.674 --> 50:19.720
psychology models into one presentation.

50:19.882 --> 50:23.492
Jesus Christ. I didn't have this at any lectures in psychology. I had studied

50:23.548 --> 50:26.972
at master's level. You know, I never went to a lecture on psychology.

50:27.028 --> 50:30.476
Like, you know, kids, we'll do ten models today. We might

50:30.500 --> 50:34.244
have done one, and this. Busy executives are bombarded with ten

50:34.284 --> 50:37.996
models about vulnerability. Gross mindset. Here's a picture of an elephant and a man

50:38.020 --> 50:41.064
on top. This is how consciousness works. Next. Next.

50:42.044 --> 50:45.580
Jesus Christ. You know, I'm obsessed by the field, but even that's

50:45.612 --> 50:46.744
too much for me,

50:49.094 --> 50:52.854
just keep it simple, keep it practical. Every time a

50:52.894 --> 50:56.142
client, every time the group is looking on the PowerPoints, they're not looking at each

50:56.158 --> 50:59.998
other. I have stopped using PowerPoint a long time ago. If I'm using

51:00.126 --> 51:04.006
one model at a time and then people learning from each other,

51:04.110 --> 51:07.550
I don't know how to make openness work in your organizations. But, you know,

51:07.582 --> 51:10.478
Danny here, off the scale, and they're a managing director.

51:10.606 --> 51:14.354
Danny, how did you manage? Yeah, you know,

51:14.734 --> 51:18.566
in this high, you know, Bob there says it's the most

51:18.710 --> 51:21.926
regulated environment he ever works for, is there's no creativity. But look,

51:22.030 --> 51:25.798
Danny, you're managing this. What's your secret? Oh, I don't take credit for anybody's,

51:25.886 --> 51:29.254
for my ideas. Oh, great. So how does that work? You know,

51:29.294 --> 51:32.638
and stuff like that. So we don't know.

51:32.806 --> 51:36.670
And I think this is what's really exciting, because if you work within

51:36.742 --> 51:40.634
a company, let's say you have a team build of people who've been careers

51:40.674 --> 51:44.194
for 20 years in engineering, have no idea how it is to be an engineer.

51:44.274 --> 51:47.554
Zilch. But what's really exciting, I have a room of

51:47.594 --> 51:51.362
ten people with 20 years experience each, roughly speaking. So I have 200 years

51:51.378 --> 51:54.442
of experience. Those people are in their thirties and forties,

51:54.578 --> 51:57.786
so I have in this room three to 400 years

51:57.810 --> 52:01.282
of different self narratives put together. Now, isn't it exciting I get

52:01.298 --> 52:04.650
to work with them for a day? Isn't it exciting we get to explore this

52:04.722 --> 52:07.990
together and the different misconceptions and biases we have

52:08.022 --> 52:11.326
about all things around us. Isn't it fun? We get to challenge this

52:11.350 --> 52:15.190
in a friendly and live manner with appreciation of my favorite

52:15.222 --> 52:19.214
quote from the end of some like it hot. Nobody's perfect. Isn't it interesting

52:19.254 --> 52:22.742
to explore this, how you can make it as an extrovert and as an

52:22.798 --> 52:25.958
engineer, you know, or equally as an introvert.

52:26.006 --> 52:29.822
Can we learn from each other? Can we see how we can work together better?

52:29.918 --> 52:33.332
And most importantly, appreciate? My favorite exercise right now is

52:33.348 --> 52:36.892
that I get. And this can be done online or in person.

52:37.028 --> 52:40.428
And in the team of ten, we'll focus on each person at a time and

52:40.436 --> 52:44.172
we'll say, where do you feel most comfortable? Like extroversion. Outcome. Big picture, you know,

52:44.308 --> 52:48.012
affiliation doesn't matter. You know terminology. If you're most comfortable,

52:48.108 --> 52:51.364
then everybody says what they appreciate, this person brings to the team,

52:51.484 --> 52:54.748
or they type it into slido or mentimeeter and pops up as

52:54.756 --> 52:58.646
a nice word cloud. And then you ask each person to unmute or share

52:58.790 --> 53:02.470
why they wrote it down. In as much detail as possible with

53:02.502 --> 53:06.118
real world examples. And then you ask that person to play back what they hear

53:06.246 --> 53:09.918
and then denominate the next person. Whether it comes to personality

53:09.966 --> 53:13.246
or teamwork, the key thing is we stop is we don't appreciate who we are

53:13.270 --> 53:16.750
already. Humans are wonderfully complex. We're highly

53:16.782 --> 53:20.614
adaptable creatures which can work in teams to freaking achieve

53:20.694 --> 53:24.366
amazing stuff like putting a person on the moon and it's

53:24.390 --> 53:28.072
so amazing, or build the pyramids. It's so amazing that the future

53:28.128 --> 53:31.400
generation can't believe we did it and, you know, they think it was aliens because

53:31.432 --> 53:35.240
we can't actually even come to terms that we can come

53:35.272 --> 53:39.024
together as a species and do amazing stuff together. And same

53:39.064 --> 53:42.240
as, you know, with climate change. Yeah, sure, we caused some of it.

53:42.312 --> 53:45.928
Sure, probably. Yeah. But isn't it amazing that we can also

53:45.976 --> 53:49.776
come together to address this issue, to actually solve this by working together?

53:49.840 --> 53:53.120
You know, if people say, you know, there's not enough meaning in the world,

53:53.272 --> 53:57.032
address climate change, you know, let's stop polluting so much.

53:57.088 --> 54:00.752
Let's address empty consumerism. You know, there's so much meaning there that we

54:00.768 --> 54:04.208
can derive from coming together and working together as a species

54:04.296 --> 54:07.336
on this. And it's amazing what we can do.

54:07.440 --> 54:10.496
And same as it's amazing what we do as individuals, as teams,

54:10.520 --> 54:13.536
as organizations, good and bad. But the key

54:13.560 --> 54:16.888
thing is, and with personality, it got you this one. You know,

54:16.936 --> 54:20.356
it got. And, you know, when people say, you know, well, my mother and dad

54:20.420 --> 54:24.052
messed me up, yeah, likely that therapy for that. But the

54:24.068 --> 54:27.588
key thing is, you know, they at least function well enough to give you

54:27.636 --> 54:30.596
a chance at this life and get you this far.

54:30.700 --> 54:34.172
And the parents before them and parents before them, and you

54:34.188 --> 54:38.052
get the idea. And I feel that so much time with leadership development,

54:38.148 --> 54:41.700
personality development, all of this coach and Kurt Vonnegut,

54:41.732 --> 54:44.700
you know, when things are going nice, just sit back and say, this is not

54:44.732 --> 54:47.806
nice. I don't know what is. And I think so much with teams and our

54:47.830 --> 54:51.286
own personality. We just don't take it like, this is me. It got me

54:51.310 --> 54:55.150
this far. Is there some things I want to tweak? Yeah, maybe. Can I work

54:55.182 --> 54:59.166
more effectively with others first who already have that? Probably. How can

54:59.190 --> 55:02.246
I work with them? And this is one of my favorite quotes by Allport,

55:02.350 --> 55:06.350
that guy who started with Aldberg, who started the statistical analysis

55:06.382 --> 55:09.222
and factor analysis which led to the big five. He says, if I want to

55:09.238 --> 55:12.506
know something about somebody, I ask them so we can go, how can work

55:12.530 --> 55:15.834
together better? How would you like feedback instead of going to Harvard Business

55:15.874 --> 55:18.906
review and say, top ten tips, how to give somebody feedback, just go and sit

55:18.930 --> 55:21.934
down. John, how would you like. John, just curious.

55:23.154 --> 55:26.402
How do you like your feedback? There's so much good stuff in there.

55:26.458 --> 55:29.762
And you quoted Kurt Vonnegut. There was a really nice quote

55:29.778 --> 55:32.722
there that you put in the book as well. We are what we pretend to

55:32.738 --> 55:36.250
be, so we must be careful who we pretend to be as well.

55:36.402 --> 55:40.694
Exactly. So when people, like, behave in different ways in organizations,

55:41.794 --> 55:45.210
ultimately that's how other people interpret you. So if you're highly

55:45.242 --> 55:48.626
introverted and you pretend to be much more extroverted at work because you're tired of

55:48.650 --> 55:52.290
people telling you that, oh, you didn't like my presentation? What are you worried about?

55:52.322 --> 55:55.386
Because you're so poker faced. You start being really accurate

55:55.410 --> 55:58.002
and a bit more exuberant, and then you call and you're exhausted by the end

55:58.018 --> 56:00.738
of the day. But your colleagues are, oh, let's go to the pub. And you

56:00.746 --> 56:03.986
go, how dare you? I'm so stressed by interacting with you all

56:04.010 --> 56:07.466
day. And they go, how dare they ask me? And they think you

56:07.490 --> 56:10.242
might be extroverted and you might actually enjoy going to pub.

56:10.378 --> 56:13.666
So, and this is where it's going back to that point.

56:13.730 --> 56:16.810
If you feel some people describe you in the way you disagree with them,

56:16.922 --> 56:20.346
don't go, that's not me. Ask them, why do

56:20.370 --> 56:24.362
they think you're this way? And that's far more interesting to explore

56:24.498 --> 56:27.826
because to me, personality, you know, going back to the point, we've been talking about

56:27.850 --> 56:30.986
it for thousands of years and we still talk about it,

56:31.010 --> 56:34.394
maybe how often do we use personality in everyday language? How often

56:34.434 --> 56:37.770
people around us use it. We still use it because it's interesting

56:37.802 --> 56:41.282
and it's useful. And personality psychology is just one

56:41.338 --> 56:45.210
kind of manifestation of this right now. And from our

56:45.242 --> 56:48.442
book and its finishes was to be continued in no way. We say it's a

56:48.458 --> 56:51.834
finished article. We wrote it a year ago. Stuff has already changed.

56:51.914 --> 56:55.290
We already made additions coming up for the reprint,

56:55.322 --> 56:58.730
which is hopefully coming as well. But there's already stuff we disagree with,

56:58.762 --> 57:02.386
what we wrote a year ago, because it has already changed. It has

57:02.410 --> 57:05.726
already moved on. And this is what's really kind

57:05.750 --> 57:09.270
of interesting and talking on one last note, just to say

57:09.302 --> 57:12.366
why the book was written, I wrote, it was a wonderful guy,

57:12.390 --> 57:16.366
Georgie, and the reason I met him is that we disagreed

57:16.390 --> 57:19.934
on LinkedIn. And I have a policy. Anybody who I disagree with on

57:19.974 --> 57:23.054
social media, especially work related matters, I have a call with.

57:23.174 --> 57:25.822
Because so often when you disagree you just talk to people who agree with you

57:25.838 --> 57:29.262
and go, you're right, they're wrong. If people would like to reach out to you

57:29.318 --> 57:32.550
and, you know, talk to you about your book or how can people

57:32.582 --> 57:35.646
get hold of you? Well, first, if you want to reach out the book,

57:35.670 --> 57:38.918
it's available on Waterstones and Amazon.

57:39.046 --> 57:42.334
And now also Blackwell for the students out there.

57:42.374 --> 57:45.646
You can pre order it there. Well, now you can order it.

57:45.710 --> 57:49.102
Update for me. Always happy to connect on LinkedIn and

57:49.158 --> 57:52.502
have a chat about personality. A bit obsessed by this stuff, to be honest,

57:52.678 --> 57:56.354
if it's not clear by now. But yeah,

57:56.654 --> 58:00.054
thank you for the opportunity to rattle on about

58:00.094 --> 58:03.670
personality for an hour. Well, we have so many questions we didn't actually get to

58:03.702 --> 58:07.302
as well. So when you do a sequel, we want to invite. Would you

58:07.318 --> 58:10.662
mind if we invite you back again? There's lots of interesting things that

58:10.678 --> 58:14.046
I'm taking away from this, and what's been really nice is just keep

58:14.070 --> 58:17.806
it simple. The importance of appreciating who you are rather than

58:17.830 --> 58:21.134
trying to focus on what's not working. We often draw into the world of deficit,

58:21.174 --> 58:24.886
aren't we? I really liked what you said about the balance of yin and

58:25.070 --> 58:29.156
Yang and the importance of actually appreciating that diversity from

58:29.180 --> 58:32.820
all perspectives. There was a quote in there that I really liked, which is the

58:32.852 --> 58:36.188
diversity is already there. It's just culture doesn't allow it.

58:36.316 --> 58:40.140
And I think that's a really powerful quote which I really enjoyed. And also

58:40.172 --> 58:44.060
just being mindful of just how there's different things in your organization which

58:44.092 --> 58:47.412
will potentially be encouraging different types of behaviours or discouraging it.

58:47.428 --> 58:50.940
So you said, like short term targets, don't expect empathy.

58:51.132 --> 58:54.588
So just be aware of like how the building blocks the organizations.

58:54.716 --> 58:57.996
And if you are evaluating at all, just type in the most tribunal and

58:58.020 --> 59:00.304
assessment. So that's for our HR audience.

59:01.324 --> 59:04.692
I think they'll appreciate that. And I guess the other

59:04.708 --> 59:08.116
thing as well is just having an appreciation that people perceive you in a

59:08.140 --> 59:11.700
different way. So be open and be curious about how people are experiencing

59:11.732 --> 59:15.724
you. It will be surprising and be open to actually asking those questions

59:15.764 --> 59:19.704
too, rather than sort of defending who we are, actually take the time to understand.

59:20.084 --> 59:23.132
Yeah, because other people have the rights to their vision of reality,

59:23.228 --> 59:26.892
and if that's how they perceive you, that's how they perceive you. It's not

59:26.908 --> 59:30.410
saying that you are, that it's how they see you and same

59:30.442 --> 59:33.794
as how you see them. One of my favorite things to ask clients is that

59:33.834 --> 59:37.154
after they, how would you describe yourself? Ask them. What do people get wrong

59:37.194 --> 59:41.026
about your personality? And especially

59:41.090 --> 59:44.482
with remote teams, when they come together as

59:44.498 --> 59:48.418
a team, that's potentially potent because,

59:48.506 --> 59:51.738
you know, now we don't have time for water cooler chats or coffee chats or

59:51.786 --> 59:55.150
anything like that. So, you know, when you finish your team

59:55.182 --> 59:58.182
meetings 15 minutes early, it's like, I'll let you have 15 minutes of your life.

59:58.278 --> 1:00:01.374
Like, go to the bathroom or have a tea or both. 15 minutes is enough

1:00:01.414 --> 1:00:04.974
time. Right. And. But the key thing is that what's really important

1:00:05.054 --> 1:00:08.310
here is that we don't have a lot of input about other

1:00:08.342 --> 1:00:12.486
people's characters, and our mind doesn't mind that. And it's amazing

1:00:12.670 --> 1:00:16.314
how our assumptions work and how little information we can make

1:00:16.854 --> 1:00:20.528
decision about this. And, Garen, you said that about

1:00:20.646 --> 1:00:23.980
hiring managers. Oh, I just like that. And this is when people

1:00:24.012 --> 1:00:28.012
say, oh, we're fully inclusive. We don't use personality assessments as part

1:00:28.028 --> 1:00:31.612
of hiring. We don't use any assessments at all. But just because you're not using

1:00:31.668 --> 1:00:35.572
assessments, your selection panel is still assessing because they

1:00:35.588 --> 1:00:37.972
will be using. Oh, I don't like the way they cross their legs. It shows

1:00:37.988 --> 1:00:41.524
they're uncomfortable across their arms or they scratch their head or they put their arms

1:00:41.564 --> 1:00:44.692
behind their head. When I read this is when the people feel superior. He sounds

1:00:44.708 --> 1:00:48.300
like an ass. And it's like, what? Just put their arms? It's amazing.

1:00:48.372 --> 1:00:52.220
And it's also really fun if you get people with similar personalities

1:00:52.412 --> 1:00:56.428
on the panel selecting the candidate, and if you get different personalities

1:00:56.596 --> 1:01:00.028
on the panel selecting the candidate, and it can be the same interview,

1:01:00.076 --> 1:01:02.924
but the result is completely different like that,

1:01:02.964 --> 1:01:06.428
which can be really interesting. Fascinating. Wow.

1:01:06.476 --> 1:01:09.364
Well, I hope people that are watching this today, it's kind of opened their eyes

1:01:09.404 --> 1:01:13.220
to just the possibilities and place things to explore. And there's

1:01:13.252 --> 1:01:15.676
so much more material in the book for you to read and to enjoy as

1:01:15.700 --> 1:01:19.700
well. And don't even get me started on where people live and what personalities

1:01:19.732 --> 1:01:22.780
are reflected like as well. That's another thing. Oh, Georgie wrote

1:01:22.812 --> 1:01:25.588
that. So for the next one, if you want to dive deeper into this,

1:01:25.636 --> 1:01:28.900
I'll get my co author on it, because I had almost

1:01:28.972 --> 1:01:33.012
no idea beyond what I read in the book. And I was like, interesting as

1:01:33.028 --> 1:01:36.068
an extrovert. I'm off to the beach now to go and live. So that's a

1:01:36.076 --> 1:01:39.404
code for stats. Climate change. I'd rent rather

1:01:39.444 --> 1:01:43.420
than buy, or the sea might come to me. Actually, I think

1:01:43.492 --> 1:01:45.724
I say where I am exactly.

1:01:46.384 --> 1:01:49.968
Brilliant. Thank you so much, Nikita. Really appreciative of your time, and thank you so

1:01:50.016 --> 1:01:52.784
much. Thank you so much. Karen and Danny, thank you very much.