Change & Collaboration in Large Systems with Sarah Morgan Chief People Officer NHS -OrgDev Episode 10

Our latest podcast episode is with Sarah Morgan, Chief People Officer of the North Central London - Integrated Care System. We spent an extremely enjoyable and insightful hour with Sarah.

We explored how Sarah leverages her OD expertise to create change across a vast NHS care system that serves over 1.6million people across London. Sarah was a brilliant guest. and shared how she builds partnerships at speed, what have been her biggest lessons along the way, and what type of leadership approach works best in a complex adaptive system.

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That’s why each week in our Next Step to Better newsletter, we’re sharing From Pod to Practice – a 2-page visual summary of each episode designed to help you take the learning from the podcast and into your work.

You’ll get:
■ Key insights from the episode
■ A reflection prompt
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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live

We'd love to connect with you on Linked In:
linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
https://www.linkedin.com/in/garinrouch

Transcript

WEBVTT

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Hi and welcome to the Dev podcast. So, how does

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a chief people officer responsible for one of the largest care systems in

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the UK approach their role in an organizational development way?

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So this week, we're delighted to welcome the brilliant Sarah

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Morgan. Sarah is chief people officer for North Central

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London Integrated Care System. So, north central London Integrated

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Care System is a huge organisation. It consists of twelve

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hospital trusts, five busy London local authorities,

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200 GPA practices, 300 pharmacies.

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It serves a population of 1.6 million people and

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is also home to world renowned medical institutions such as Great

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Ormond Street Hospital, Moorfields Eye Hospital, the Tavistock

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and University College London. Sarah describes herself as

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an NHS manager at heart since 2002,

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and day to day she's resting some of the biggest issues around workforce

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and innovation. In her career, she's done things such as being the national

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lead for the Dalton Review, and the Dalton review was a huge report that was

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done in 2014 that really looked at the way of working for the NHS.

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And we're going to look at how Odie has played a key role

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for her career in terms of her new role now

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as chief people officer and also in her previous roles.

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I actually met Sarah originally when she was organization development

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director at Guy's and St Thomas Hospital, and she shared

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her remarkable experiences during COVID where everything

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and anything was absolutely changing about the way in which services were

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delivered and consumed. So we're absolutely delighted that Sarah's joining

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us and she's going sharing highlights from her career,

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her working approach, and also how she builds really systemic

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partnerships across such a large and complex adaptive system.

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So welcome, Sarah, and thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for

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having me. Welcome, Sarah. Lovely to have you. So, to kick off, we'll just ask

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an easy, potentially not easy question. So what does a chief people officer for the

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north central London integrated care system do? What do your role entail?

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What are your responsibilities? So, my role, I suppose there's

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two parts to my role. So, the integrated care system is,

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as Garen described, as a broad range of health and

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care providers, but it's led by an integrated care board,

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which is an organization in its own right. They used to be called clinical commissioning

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groups, and that changed in July 2022,

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and we had five clinical commissioning groups come together.

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So, the integrated Care board. I'm the chief people officer for the staff

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that work for that organisation, as well as responsible

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for the workforce and people agenda across

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the five boroughs of north central London, including all the providers

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and health and care charities,

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voluntary sector organisations,

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etcetera, to try and support us to have

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a sustainable health and care system for our population.

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Brilliant. That's a really huge role. And I guess

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the question we always ask every OD practitioner that we've is,

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what is your journey into OD? Like, how did. How did you find it?

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Or how did it find you? Well, I'd say it was

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accidental, but actually, when I look back over my career, it was probably

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accidental by design. So I started

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out as a graduate in 2002, as you mentioned,

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in operational management in the NHS, and I found

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that I was always fascinated by the change aspects. Once I changed it,

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I didn't really have as much interest in maintaining the services.

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I always wanted to do different and

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do better, really. And I'd worked in acute

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settings, so hospitals, mental health and also specialist services.

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So genetics was the service that I led across

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Cheshire and Merseyside for a while. And I think

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I'd sort of got to the point where I had a decision

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point whether I wanted to stay in the NHS or do something a bit different.

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And so I chose the different and I went into consulting

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and worked for one of the big four for a number of years, leading big

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programs, and I always was interested in kind of the people

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change elements of it. But what used to frustrate me

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was the NHS would always cross off the OD bit. Oh, that's too

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much money, you know, we don't want to do that. So, although.

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So we used to do it a bit by stealth and I realized that that's

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where my passion was. I did my masters on sense

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making and why the intention of policy is actually

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different to how it's implemented and how social construct,

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particularly in very senior people. So I interviewed chief executives and medical

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consultants, really plays a part, and I've been fascinated

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by that concept ever since, really.

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And then when I came back to the NHS, I was a director with OD

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in my portfolio, but at that point, it's probably what everyone would recognize as

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HR business partners and the learning and development function rebadged.

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So trying to really think about what does Od mean

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in the context of the NHS. And then you mentioned

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the Dalton review, which was a national policy that looked at how

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you could create group models in the NHS,

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and that has really taken off as a policy, actually, there are

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a lot of group models, and that does require organizational

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design and development. And that took me to guys and St Thomas's,

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where I was the director of organisational development for about seven years,

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leading on the design part, as well as the OD

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overall for guys and St Thomas's. Which, when I started,

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had 12,000 people and when I left it had 25,000 people

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working for it. So a really exciting place

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to be and really accepting of OD. So actually

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the senior leadership really embraced all

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sorts of OD interventions, which was. Which is actually

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quite a delight and quite unusual, I would say, in some places.

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So kind of a golden thread, but a little bit accidental as

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well. That's an absolutely fascinating. And we're loving the whole sense making

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because almost like the NHS is the ultimate complex adaptive system, isn't it?

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So sense making and understanding how different people are, making sense of what's going

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on is really important. Obviously, we talked. The fact that I saw

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you when you were actually giving that talk at the CIPD conference about

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your time during COVID there, can you just shed a little bit of light on

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that? What was it like to do Od at a time like that, when everything

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and anything was absolutely upside down, wasn't it?

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Yeah. I mean, I always describe it as an absolute

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privilege because it was such a challenging

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time in the NHS in particular,

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and staff were going through such a difficult time that being

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able to be there to work alongside. So we partnered with our

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psychology team to really support staff.

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So one of the examples I think I shared when I

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was talking was, after the first wave of COVID we

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actually ran reflection sessions for over

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all of the critical care staff that had been involved and we

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ran that over a month because there was about 400 staff that

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had been involved, because guys in St Thomas is a very big organization,

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as you know, they'd also cared for the prime minister during that period

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and that in its was quite a challenging time for

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people. So to be able to bring. To bear the opportunity,

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to be able to hold space, to help people connect to their experience

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in a safe way, obviously, with our psychology team, making sure

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that we didn't do anything we shouldn't be doing,

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but also put on for leaders and managers,

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a lot of support, leadership support circles, as they

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were called, bringing peers together to learn and share.

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We had bite size coaching, so when people had issues, they had really

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quick access things all the way through to running a supermarket, which we

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had to stand up in six days, which was quite epic and

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took me all the way back to my operational management days where, you know,

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I could at least, I know I can still work well in a crisis.

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So, you know, there's all the lovely od bits, but then there's, how do you.

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How do you operationally manage in a crisis?

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So to be able to do all of that work that we

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did with, you know, we were heavily supported by the

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charity for guys and St Thomas'which, was really an important part

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of it, but it was. It was such an experience and

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I have written a blog about it because I really wanted to share

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that experience and we really put humanity and sort of heart

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and love at the heart of everything that we did because we really wanted to

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show the staff that they were valued and that we cared about them

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at a time when, you know, often that it didn't really feel like

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that. With all the issues that are now obviously being reported

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more broadly in the media and humanity seems to be like a thread that's

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kind of gone through your career, isn't it? Like, you're putting it at the heart

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of OD. You've kind of. All those skills have now come together

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in your new role in a chief people officer for this ICS.

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How did you know where to begin? You know, how did you work out who

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to talk to, how to navigate the terrain, how to

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understand the priorities and where to really focus? Because this is a

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huge role, isn't it? Yeah, it's a really good question.

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So it was made relatively easy for me in this role

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because they'd all come together quite well during COVID

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So I kind of inherited, essentially,

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particularly from the NHS side, quite a well established set of relationships.

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The bit that I've really had to work hard on and navigate and have found

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tricky in some ways, because it's just not straightforward, is finding who

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the right people are in local authority partners and other partners,

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because obviously, naturally, the NHS, you can sort of work through who,

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you know, the natural people are, but to work

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with a different, different part of the local authority that isn't around

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the social care side. So it's about economic regeneration

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and our inclusive economy. Colleagues who work with the labour

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markets in their local boroughs, they have employment hubs,

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it's quite a different environment and it was a group of colleagues

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that I'd never worked with and if I'm honest, I didn't really

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know existed, which is fascinating

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when you start realizing what you don't know. So a lot of my job has

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been finding out what I don't know, asking quite a lot of questions

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and then that, slowly but surely leading

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us to kind of new partners,

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new opportunities. And it's been really fascinating.

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I've learned so much in the last 18 months. It's been.

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It's been fascinating. That sounds it. So what does a typical week

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look like? I was going to ask typical day, but I think probably typical week

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might be an easier. I know I started to look through, I started writing

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this down and I thought, wow, I don't know how my brain keeps up with

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this. So it can. It really ranges. So every Monday

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morning I always meet with my senior team and then I meet the executives,

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have a huddle as well. So there's sort of a rhythm to the week where

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certain points of the week we meet and we always have executive team meeting

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on a Thursday morning as well, which is our formal meeting.

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But in and around that, it could be anything ranging from

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challenges to do with the organisational change program. We're currently having

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to reduce the organisation by 30% and we've

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run a whole organizational change program. We're just coming out the other side

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of that, er, cases through to meeting

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health charities and thinking about how we might work together

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differently. Through to. I've just, just launched

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a chair appointment, so we're recruiting

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for a new chair. So that's been quite an interesting,

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new to me kind of approach because it's actually an NHS

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England format. So that that's

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been a massive learning curve in the last two weeks.

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But through to kind of workforce setting our workforce

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priorities for the system, working through

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kind of our business plan and business planning.

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This week for my team and HR and OD, what we're going to do

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for the year, the staff survey results are out, so what does that mean?

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And then I meet the chief people officers every week. We meet the chief execs

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together across the system every week. So it's

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a real eclectic mix. And actually, I'm also out for a director

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at the moment, so I've been having lots and lots of candidate calls this week,

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so it's in, in and around, so interspersed.

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And I am an honorary associate professor at the University of Birmingham

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and I had a conversation about some exciting opportunities. Is there?

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So it is, you know, it's. My brain

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has to flip from one thing to another. Quite a lot. So diverse, so really

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interesting. The other thing in terms of diversity, you know, you've already described a

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bit about the system you're working in and the partners and stuff, so that's

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a really diverse population you're working with, with very different needs and perspectives.

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How do you go about integrating those different perspectives to make. Make stuff

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happen, create alignment? So a lot of it is conversational based

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and building on relationships. I think pretty much these roles,

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there isn't really a hierarchy to it. So though I'm the chief people

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officer for the sector, the chief people officers within the organizations

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don't report to me, there is no line there. So it is

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about a peer relationship where we've all got our roles in

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the system and it's how we come together. So really my only power

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is what is vested in me by colleagues, which is a really interesting

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kind of challenge in and of itself. So how do you lead when you're not

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in charge? Is a really interesting leadership

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challenge. And so a lot of it is co

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creation. Thinking about kind of what

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is it that will benefit the most. So where are the highest impact things

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that we can do? So at the moment, we're just

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scoping some of those out for next year, thinking about kind of

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where do we want to put our energy. One of the key ones that we

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want to look at is how do we track more young people into

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careers in health and social care. There is not the

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pipeline, I suppose, wants a better phrase that we've previously enjoyed

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because people are seeing in the press,

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etc. That if, you know, if you're a nurse, potentially you're

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going to a food bank. That's not been a very good pr

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campaign for us, to be honest. And actually there's 350 careers,

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and particularly for us, healthcare science is

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something that we really want to promote. We want to be talking to young people

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who want careers in science and technology about what the opportunities could

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be. So there are over 50 careers in health

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science alone. So things like nuclear medicine, all sorts of opportunities

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that people just don't realize are there, but can afford a fantastic

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career. So we want to start really getting into

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schools and promoting, promoting ourselves in that way.

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So it's. There's all sorts of. There's all sorts of ways

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we coalesce around particular things. And it's

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fascinating to always be in a different stakeholder group, talking about different things,

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you know, so that's what keeps me interested.

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And I think really seeing the fact that you can have a direct benefit

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on people's lives through good work, being what we describe

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as population health intervention. So if you've got a better

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life chances, your health will be better. If you've got opportunity

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for good work to build careers, that does really improve

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your overall health completely. And it is such

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an important part of what our role is and what we do.

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Brilliant. And I guess one of the questions that we're really curious to understand is,

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obviously there's the CPO role, obviously the way you've defined it, it's unique

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for that organization. How has being an OD

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practitioner shaped the way in which you've approached the role.

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Yeah, that's really interesting.

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So I suppose there's two aspects to it. So in

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the organization itself. So as I mentioned,

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we've had to. We had to restructure our organization, we've had

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to reduce by 30%, putting sort of humanity

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back to that humanity point at the heart. And having an

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OD lens on what is essentially a HR process has been

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incredibly important because we listen to what staff said.

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I mean, this isn't the first organizational change that this staff

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have been through. So we listen to what went well and didn't

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go so well in the last process and we try to build in

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learning and lots of opportunity for staff to engage

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prior to the consultation, which is quite difficult because you can only go so far

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before you trigger a consultation. I think the fact that I'm not actually

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a HR through and through person means that I

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do naturally bring that OD lens to

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it. So we've managed to go through the change programme. We're about

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to stand up our new organization, and I think this is where the OD really

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comes in. How do you stand up a brand new organization? Well, it's not brand

17:04.158 --> 17:07.373
new in terms of the people, etcetera,

17:07.413 --> 17:10.805
but it's new in terms of the structure, the purpose.

17:10.909 --> 17:14.189
What we're there to do is quite different to what clinical commissioning

17:14.221 --> 17:17.861
groups were there to do. So we've built a program that

17:17.877 --> 17:21.685
is high performing teams at the heart of the organization. It's building blocks

17:21.709 --> 17:25.301
of everything that we do. And then we're wrapping

17:25.357 --> 17:29.061
around the senior leaders a leadership development

17:29.157 --> 17:32.997
programme to make sure that they feel equipped to lead in this

17:33.045 --> 17:36.630
new way. And that brings in sort of the elements of self, the elements of

17:36.662 --> 17:39.902
leading a team in an organization and leading in the system.

17:39.998 --> 17:43.382
So back to your how do you lead in a complex adaptive system?

17:43.438 --> 17:46.702
How do you lead when you're not in charge? These are really important things for

17:46.718 --> 17:50.518
our leaders to grapple with and are quite different to

17:50.566 --> 17:54.326
the much more, I suppose, contractual relationship that was

17:54.350 --> 17:57.974
there previously between the providers and the commissioners

17:58.014 --> 18:01.462
when we had the traditional commissioning model. So from an

18:01.478 --> 18:04.980
organisation perspective, we are now really starting to go

18:05.142 --> 18:09.272
with our or, you know, really going rod approach.

18:09.448 --> 18:13.344
We also have made sure that we've done inclusive recruitment practices

18:13.424 --> 18:16.992
all the way through because we could see from our

18:17.048 --> 18:20.584
Eqia, our equality impact assessment of the change program,

18:20.744 --> 18:24.192
that people that were young were more junior

18:24.288 --> 18:27.960
or black asian minority ethnic colleagues could be

18:27.992 --> 18:31.376
disadvantaged in the process. And we had to make sure that we

18:31.400 --> 18:35.102
addressed that. And we have been very open with our staff, so we've tried to

18:35.118 --> 18:39.126
be as open and transparent at every stage that we could be. And then

18:39.150 --> 18:43.022
in the system, that's about how to hold space, how do

18:43.038 --> 18:46.270
you convene, how do you bring people

18:46.342 --> 18:49.566
together to coalesce around particular challenges

18:49.750 --> 18:53.750
and to actually drive things forward? How do you work through as

18:53.782 --> 18:57.358
well as with others? And that. That in itself, I think,

18:57.526 --> 19:01.438
in many ways, being an. It's having an OD mindset, isn't it? You end

19:01.486 --> 19:04.888
up stylistically and your leadership style ends up having

19:04.936 --> 19:08.576
that OD approach to it. But all

19:08.600 --> 19:12.136
of that OD background, I think, has set me up well to

19:12.160 --> 19:15.480
be able to hold those spaces for multiple partners with

19:15.512 --> 19:18.768
multiple perspectives to come together and think about

19:18.816 --> 19:22.216
the big challenges that face us in. In our system.

19:22.360 --> 19:23.884
I have so many questions.

19:25.584 --> 19:29.104
Okay, so I'm going to make sure. Ask both these. So one of

19:29.604 --> 19:32.922
the things you said there was about leadership, and you have

19:32.938 --> 19:35.346
a really good blog, and if you're happy for us to share the link,

19:35.370 --> 19:38.042
we'll put it in the show notes with us as well. Yeah, definitely. One thing

19:38.058 --> 19:41.442
you talk about is when you first entered, you know, the workforce,

19:41.578 --> 19:44.786
the emphasis very much on heroic leadership. You know, they're kind of

19:44.810 --> 19:48.090
like the superhero, iconic big personality.

19:48.242 --> 19:51.882
And your thinking has evolved as well as sort of the education around

19:51.898 --> 19:55.042
it. Where do you sort of stand on what makes an effective leader, particularly in

19:55.058 --> 19:58.530
an environment where you are now? Well, I think you have

19:58.602 --> 20:01.938
different skill sets at different times. So it.

20:02.066 --> 20:05.254
So I think in the environment of the system,

20:05.554 --> 20:08.498
it is about this relationship building,

20:08.586 --> 20:12.658
this, you know, it's collaborative leadership.

20:12.706 --> 20:16.050
I would describe it of. Not necessarily, I was trying to think, is it participative?

20:16.122 --> 20:20.654
But in many ways think it's actually, it's this collaborative leadership approach.

20:21.034 --> 20:24.142
But ultimately, we are. We are still

20:24.278 --> 20:27.678
having to hold to account when things need to be held to account.

20:27.726 --> 20:31.742
So you have to be able to shift your leadership style for the

20:31.838 --> 20:35.154
context. And I think context is king in all of this.

20:36.054 --> 20:39.274
The heroic leadership, even during COVID

20:39.894 --> 20:43.414
I don't think, had a place, because actually, the difference

20:43.454 --> 20:47.590
with COVID was nobody knew what they were doing, so nobody could be the hero.

20:47.742 --> 20:51.308
And actually, when we. When we went sort

20:51.316 --> 20:55.436
of, we did a survey of kind of what people had found during

20:55.500 --> 20:59.076
COVID like, what were their learnings? And actually,

20:59.220 --> 21:02.412
many of the, especially staff in training said what

21:02.428 --> 21:05.508
was great was that they could all contribute because

21:05.556 --> 21:09.644
nobody was the expert and they all felt empowered to have an idea.

21:09.684 --> 21:13.396
And I think that really was very interesting. So you could think, well,

21:13.500 --> 21:17.564
you know, we suddenly went into command and control. Is that heroic leadership?

21:17.684 --> 21:21.552
But even then it was heroic, but humble.

21:21.728 --> 21:25.392
It was heroic because we had to be doing things we were facing

21:25.448 --> 21:28.896
head on, but it was humble in terms of people didn't know

21:28.920 --> 21:32.552
the answers and it was a collective endeavor in

21:32.568 --> 21:36.072
a way that it hadn't been. But ultimately you still have goal command, who has

21:36.088 --> 21:39.224
to make a difficult decision at some point. So that's kind of

21:39.264 --> 21:43.408
where that leadership style comes in. So I think

21:43.456 --> 21:46.560
it's all about the context and how you move. And in the

21:46.592 --> 21:51.002
context of an integrated care system, it is really about the relationships.

21:51.138 --> 21:54.186
And it sounds quite freeing for people not to have to know

21:54.210 --> 21:57.010
the answer and for the leaders not to have to pretend they knew the answers

21:57.042 --> 22:00.574
and for others to be able to. It's hard to break the habit, actually.

22:00.954 --> 22:04.282
It's really hard to break the habit. And a

22:04.298 --> 22:08.330
lot of people grow up being technical experts and

22:08.402 --> 22:12.294
they have quite narrow careers. And I suppose my real,

22:13.354 --> 22:16.900
I suppose my mission in life is to help people think about breadth.

22:16.962 --> 22:20.512
Breadth. I think breadth is a very good thing. And if you can

22:20.608 --> 22:24.376
see, you know, you have experience and you've seen things from different

22:24.440 --> 22:27.944
sides, you have a much more rounded perspective. So, you know,

22:27.984 --> 22:32.104
my career has spanned operational management consultancy,

22:32.264 --> 22:35.096
working at the, in the civil service, you know,

22:35.200 --> 22:38.648
leading, being director in an organization. You know,

22:38.736 --> 22:42.072
it's, it's lots of different perspectives. And now

22:42.128 --> 22:45.352
I'm starting to really start to get the perspective of new partners,

22:45.408 --> 22:48.800
local authorities. What does it mean to be in the voluntary sector?

22:48.912 --> 22:52.136
And these are new perspectives. I think

22:52.160 --> 22:55.768
you're always learning. And it's really fascinating

22:55.896 --> 22:59.368
to sort of see the same problem from multiple angles

22:59.456 --> 23:02.624
and to really be able

23:02.664 --> 23:06.324
to accept other people's point of view often,

23:06.904 --> 23:10.528
and sometimes we can get quite

23:10.576 --> 23:14.264
binary. And I think actually being able to have this broader,

23:14.304 --> 23:18.208
open minded perspective is a really important part of co

23:18.256 --> 23:21.520
creation. So that's the, that's the bit that

23:21.552 --> 23:25.408
we really want to make sure that we build the capability and the confidence,

23:25.496 --> 23:28.536
because you have to be quite confident, say, well, I don't know, let's, let's use

23:28.560 --> 23:31.512
the hive mind to do that.

23:31.648 --> 23:34.880
And often people shy away from it because they feel

23:34.912 --> 23:38.672
that then they're undermining themselves in some way. Yeah. I think

23:38.688 --> 23:41.912
you mentioned when you bring these people together, they have

23:41.928 --> 23:45.244
their different interpretations, their own assumptions, their own biases,

23:45.804 --> 23:49.412
different information gaps and different levels of influence. And it is that melting

23:49.468 --> 23:52.940
pot you're bringing people together in, isn't it? Yeah. And it's,

23:53.052 --> 23:55.624
and I think that is a joy.

23:56.284 --> 23:59.424
It is so interesting. Like, I always learn something.

24:00.204 --> 24:04.020
I learn things from my team every day. I learn things from talking

24:04.052 --> 24:07.132
to other people every day. It is that,

24:07.188 --> 24:10.052
for me, is really. That's what keeps these jobs enjoyable,

24:10.108 --> 24:13.984
because I get very bored very quickly, hence all the change.

24:14.644 --> 24:18.602
But this job is never boring. And it's

24:18.738 --> 24:20.014
also a really.

24:21.714 --> 24:25.186
The chief execs and in the sector and the chief people, officers are such

24:25.210 --> 24:28.546
a great, great group of humans, to be honest,

24:28.650 --> 24:32.250
that it is actually a really good place to come

24:32.282 --> 24:35.762
together and to work together in. Perfect. So you've talked a lot

24:35.778 --> 24:39.186
about partnerships and the importance of those and how you've had to forge new partnerships

24:39.290 --> 24:41.994
as you're in the role. Have you got any hints or tips for how people

24:42.034 --> 24:45.474
can build those partnerships at speed? So you obviously want to get things done quickly

24:45.514 --> 24:48.760
and build up those relationships. How do you go about

24:48.792 --> 24:52.192
that? Yeah, so I think Stephen R Covey

24:52.248 --> 24:56.000
says change is built at the speed of trust, and I think that's so

24:56.072 --> 25:00.040
true. I mean, we did lots of sessions on that when I was at Guys

25:00.072 --> 25:02.848
and Tommies, we used to do that with our leaders.

25:02.976 --> 25:06.544
So I think it is about having open and honest conversations. Lots of

25:06.584 --> 25:09.944
coffees, lots of chats, lots of building, if you can,

25:09.984 --> 25:13.606
coalesce around something. So we've recently put

25:13.630 --> 25:16.958
in a big bid for a Department of Work and pensions

25:17.046 --> 25:20.310
program that came out the spring budget called Workwell,

25:20.422 --> 25:23.806
which is about supporting people with long term conditions, mental health problems,

25:23.830 --> 25:27.166
back into work. And, you know, we've been able to

25:27.190 --> 25:30.366
coalesce around a common purpose with colleagues and

25:30.390 --> 25:33.846
everyone's got really excited and passionate about the

25:33.910 --> 25:37.230
opportunity. And the other program that we had that we've

25:37.302 --> 25:40.798
really brought partners together on is care leavers, so care

25:40.846 --> 25:44.030
experienced young people, so supporting them into roles in

25:44.182 --> 25:47.182
the NHS, specifically, it's an NHS program,

25:47.358 --> 25:50.534
and we were one of ten pilots in the country to do

25:50.574 --> 25:54.270
that. But I could see that it was such

25:54.302 --> 25:58.434
an opportunity to come together with local authorities and the charity sector

25:58.934 --> 26:02.814
in a way that was different, that we could build new relationships,

26:02.854 --> 26:06.646
because this was really about the corporate parent role of

26:06.670 --> 26:10.210
local authorities and also back to the inclusive

26:10.242 --> 26:14.034
economy, urban regeneration, part of the councils,

26:14.074 --> 26:17.930
and their role in employment for local people. So it

26:17.962 --> 26:21.002
gave us a completely new set of relationships. And I think

26:21.058 --> 26:24.506
that's the important bit. It's finding things that you can

26:24.530 --> 26:28.734
have common purpose with, where you can use that as your springboard

26:29.114 --> 26:30.814
and also lots of coffee.

26:32.154 --> 26:35.160
I think the big thing is, though, you do it at speed, that's the big

26:35.192 --> 26:38.888
thing, because sometimes these can be very long, drawn out processes,

26:38.936 --> 26:42.008
building trust. And I think you sort of talk about building a north Star,

26:42.056 --> 26:45.928
but how do you do it at speed? I think there was one thing you

26:45.936 --> 26:49.392
were talking about where you sort of built a partnership with Dartford and Gravesend

26:49.488 --> 26:53.032
and two very different institutions with different catchment areas, different staff,

26:53.088 --> 26:56.936
different challenges, and you managed to bring them together at speed. Like, what is

26:56.960 --> 27:00.124
it? Is it a secret sauce? Is it a dark heart? Or is it.

27:00.604 --> 27:04.060
Is there a way to do it that others can learn from? I think it's

27:04.092 --> 27:06.780
tenacity as well. So it.

27:06.972 --> 27:11.756
So it's completely, you know, so that was really bringing

27:11.780 --> 27:14.948
the exec teams together quickly. I mean, I think I

27:14.956 --> 27:17.212
was meant to be on holiday the day we came in. I was in between,

27:17.268 --> 27:20.572
like a holiday and going to Glastonbury, you know, is that kind of.

27:20.588 --> 27:24.020
It's why it sticks in the mind. And I came in to facilitate this

27:24.052 --> 27:27.364
session between the two exec teams and we could see there was something there,

27:27.484 --> 27:31.080
but then you need to build that momentum and, you know, and again,

27:31.152 --> 27:34.648
that had a goal because we had the. It was the five year forward view

27:34.696 --> 27:38.224
at the time and there was funding to be a vanguard from NHS

27:38.264 --> 27:41.120
England so we could build things quickly because we had,

27:41.152 --> 27:45.176
like, momentum to, you know, get a bid, get relationship,

27:45.240 --> 27:49.152
get some things going. And I think that does help, because if

27:49.168 --> 27:52.384
you're just kind of meeting and having a chat, these things can be a slow

27:52.424 --> 27:55.856
burn. So I do think that common purpose really helps

27:55.880 --> 27:59.354
you build it speed. Something that we want to achieve together

27:59.734 --> 28:03.750
is really. That's. I think that's the secret sauce is

28:03.862 --> 28:07.534
kind of that shared purpose. And don't skip

28:07.574 --> 28:10.198
that step. That's the foundation it's built on.

28:10.246 --> 28:13.654
Yeah, I personally think so. You know, when we did that

28:13.694 --> 28:16.846
session, we came together to say across sort of

28:16.870 --> 28:20.582
strategic financial culture, like, where did we

28:20.598 --> 28:23.790
come? Where were our opportunities and where did we come together? And we thought,

28:23.822 --> 28:26.922
well, there's enough here to at least carry on, let's just build on it and

28:26.938 --> 28:30.378
let's keep going. And it. And it turned into a

28:30.506 --> 28:33.738
four year relationship that really. It lasted

28:33.826 --> 28:37.282
halfway through Covid even, which was quite amazing, given everything

28:37.378 --> 28:40.554
everyone was doing. And really,

28:40.634 --> 28:44.810
we set up the first epilepsy servicing in Kent

28:44.962 --> 28:48.218
for young, for paediatrics, so for

28:48.266 --> 28:51.402
children. Before that, it was children having to go to

28:51.418 --> 28:54.866
a and e. And so that, you know, there's some really proud moments of what

28:54.890 --> 28:58.680
you can achieve when you come together and coalesce around a purpose.

28:58.752 --> 29:02.576
And the purpose there was to bring the best of a teaching hospital to

29:02.600 --> 29:06.096
the local population of Dartford and Gravesham. Fabulous.

29:06.160 --> 29:09.832
So you mentioned there, one of the successes was that epilepsy initiative.

29:09.928 --> 29:12.536
What are the other successes? What are the biggest impacts? When you look back at

29:12.560 --> 29:15.576
your kind of career, what are the big impacts that you see you've done?

29:15.640 --> 29:18.844
Well, I think my biggest impact was

29:19.464 --> 29:23.484
leading the Dalton review, which has been one of the biggest

29:24.444 --> 29:27.548
at the time. It was one of the biggest engagements

29:27.636 --> 29:30.804
that had been done for policymaking, because we not

29:30.844 --> 29:34.652
only engaged with the sector and NHS professionals, etc,

29:34.708 --> 29:38.580
but we actually engaged with the public as well around what it could mean

29:38.612 --> 29:42.620
to create group models. And these are organisations

29:42.692 --> 29:45.972
that come together, so you have a bigger catchment

29:46.028 --> 29:49.332
area in the same organization to create standards,

29:49.388 --> 29:52.872
reduce and warranted variation, and you have certain

29:52.948 --> 29:56.160
less, you know, a big leadership team at the top, rather than

29:56.192 --> 30:00.088
lots of leadership teams. So it's. It's been

30:00.136 --> 30:03.408
adopted quite far and wide across the NHS and I

30:03.416 --> 30:06.768
think has seen some real successes there for

30:06.816 --> 30:10.528
populations, for reducing clinical variation.

30:10.696 --> 30:13.888
So it's hard to point to and say those

30:13.936 --> 30:17.728
absolute things happened, but the fact that it's been widely adopted,

30:17.816 --> 30:21.184
I think is a really important, important point.

30:21.884 --> 30:25.556
The vanguard program that we ran between guys and St Thomas's and Dartford

30:25.620 --> 30:29.036
had some pathway changes in vascular and cardiovascular

30:29.100 --> 30:32.324
and pediatrics. And we,

30:32.444 --> 30:36.380
you know, we did some really great work

30:36.452 --> 30:40.204
between the two organizations. The reason that worked

30:40.244 --> 30:43.596
was because Guy's in St Thomas's was a tertiary centre

30:43.700 --> 30:47.092
for Dartford, so the patient flows were already there,

30:47.228 --> 30:50.384
even though it was in Kent, so in a different region.

30:51.004 --> 30:54.476
So that was really exciting. And I think it's kind

30:54.500 --> 30:58.364
of the little moments as well. So some of the. Some of the

30:58.524 --> 31:01.740
leadership development programme we did at Guy's and St Thomas's, that was

31:01.772 --> 31:05.132
actually team based. So we brought together the clinical

31:05.188 --> 31:09.252
director with their heads of nursing and their general manager,

31:09.428 --> 31:12.436
and we actually put in a team based program that

31:12.460 --> 31:16.468
was all about embodied leadership so completely differently.

31:16.516 --> 31:20.438
And all the directorates went through it and they just finished then Covid hit.

31:20.636 --> 31:24.522
And I like to think that they all bonded during this program that

31:24.538 --> 31:28.274
enabled them to, like, you know, lead well during that

31:28.314 --> 31:32.146
crisis, because we were really trying to move away, as we talked about earlier,

31:32.290 --> 31:36.314
the heroic leadership model we were trying to move towards. This is a team.

31:36.474 --> 31:39.578
When you're. When you're in a clinical setting, the team

31:39.626 --> 31:43.530
is vitally important. And that's what we wanted to

31:43.602 --> 31:46.250
role model in the organization.

31:46.442 --> 31:50.144
And my best moment was seeing some of our clinical directors

31:50.184 --> 31:53.888
meditating as part of this session. Which was an absolute

31:53.936 --> 31:57.124
delight. It must be a sight to behold.

31:57.584 --> 32:01.016
Absolute sight to behold, definitely. What do you find

32:01.040 --> 32:03.968
most challenging about the role that you're doing now?

32:04.096 --> 32:07.296
It's been challenging to walk, you know,

32:07.360 --> 32:10.808
or join an organization, then immediately be given a mandate

32:10.856 --> 32:14.280
to reduce it by 30%. So that was quite

32:14.352 --> 32:18.362
challenging. I mean, we knew we needed to reorganize

32:18.458 --> 32:22.522
anyway. It was, you know, when you've brought. Which ultimately

32:22.538 --> 32:25.570
it was six organizations coming into one, you know,

32:25.602 --> 32:28.734
you have to. You have to redesign that. So it makes sense.

32:29.794 --> 32:33.546
But I'm not sure we would have chosen to reduce by the. By the

32:33.610 --> 32:37.874
amount that we've had to. However, we have

32:37.994 --> 32:41.738
done that as a real zero base of the organization.

32:41.866 --> 32:45.934
As I said, put humanity at the heart of it. And we've tried our best

32:46.434 --> 32:50.014
to make what is an incredibly different, difficult situation

32:50.394 --> 32:54.642
slightly better for colleagues as much as we possibly could.

32:54.818 --> 32:58.226
We didn't get everything 100% right, but the fact that we've managed to stick

32:58.250 --> 33:01.674
to our timetable and we'll be ready to stand

33:01.714 --> 33:05.818
up on the 1 April, I think, is really important. But that has been challenging

33:05.866 --> 33:09.014
at times and just managing everything. It's.

33:09.394 --> 33:12.678
I've sent my chief executive a gif of me juggling

33:12.726 --> 33:15.974
balls this week to say this is

33:16.014 --> 33:19.806
sort of currently how I feel. There's just so much going

33:19.870 --> 33:23.118
on at the moment. We're in what's called operational planning for

33:23.126 --> 33:26.686
the NHS, so we're doing all the plans for next year for the

33:26.750 --> 33:30.270
NHS. That's a huge piece of work. We're trying to

33:30.342 --> 33:33.974
stand up the organization. I've just got so

33:34.014 --> 33:37.334
many different things. I'm trying to recruit my new team so that we can get

33:37.374 --> 33:40.754
going on other things and, yeah, there's just always

33:40.834 --> 33:44.650
something, but in a way that keeps it exciting, it keeps

33:44.682 --> 33:48.506
it fresh and it keeps you sort of. It keeps

33:48.530 --> 33:51.922
your momentum going. Yeah, I guess.

33:51.938 --> 33:55.170
Obviously, you mentioned that relationship between you and the chief executive is

33:55.242 --> 33:58.826
probably one of the most critical relationships in the organization, isn't it? How do

33:58.850 --> 34:02.410
you stay aligned and ensuring that, you know, because obviously that

34:02.442 --> 34:05.722
you have the same priorities, that. And obviously you're accountable to

34:05.738 --> 34:09.224
them. How do they sort of assess that you're on track? Obviously, there's the traditional

34:09.264 --> 34:13.024
measures, but how do you. How do you stay aligned in this fast moving relationship?

34:13.184 --> 34:16.392
Yeah, that's a really interesting question. And I've got a change of chief

34:16.448 --> 34:19.864
executive as well. So my, my chief executive is currently

34:19.904 --> 34:22.964
on a career break for a few months and.

34:23.504 --> 34:27.136
But she and I work really, really closely together. I think that's

34:27.160 --> 34:30.576
the only way that you can do these jobs. You are, you know, as the

34:30.600 --> 34:34.032
chief people officer, it's a challenging role to be on an executive.

34:34.128 --> 34:37.744
And I always said that being a director of OD was a challenging role

34:37.784 --> 34:41.576
because you are yours, the person that is sort of responsible

34:41.640 --> 34:45.536
for what people see. You're not responsible for the culture, but people look

34:45.560 --> 34:48.768
to you and say, you know, culture is your job and obviously it's everybody's job

34:48.896 --> 34:53.120
and in particular the chief executive. But you're

34:53.152 --> 34:56.744
sort of, when you're in these roles, you're a colleague in the executive,

34:56.864 --> 35:00.430
but you're the confident of the chief executive. So sometimes there

35:00.462 --> 35:03.902
is, you know, they can be a tightrope to walk

35:04.038 --> 35:07.246
as the chief people officer, as many listeners on this call will

35:07.270 --> 35:09.594
be ultimately familiar with,

35:10.494 --> 35:14.358
but staying aligned. And I've got a close relationship with my

35:14.406 --> 35:18.070
current chief executive because he is our substantive chief finance

35:18.102 --> 35:21.414
officer. And I've been really fortunate because the belief

35:21.454 --> 35:25.046
of the chief executive and the chief finance officer are the HR and

35:25.070 --> 35:28.712
odd finance are the pillars of

35:28.728 --> 35:32.360
an organisation. So it doesn't really matter what organization you're

35:32.392 --> 35:35.272
in, those are the pillars that make.

35:35.448 --> 35:39.192
Make it work. If you have, you can't have a misaligned

35:39.248 --> 35:42.816
finance and HR and OD function because the

35:42.840 --> 35:46.376
organization will suffer. So we've had that as a

35:46.400 --> 35:50.048
triumvirate, we've had that belief and so I think that's been really important.

35:50.216 --> 35:53.640
How do they hold me to account and know that I'm doing it?

35:53.752 --> 35:59.368
I think they just tell me when I wasn't. So obviously

35:59.416 --> 36:03.096
all the, like you say, all the traditional one to one and appraisal

36:03.160 --> 36:07.280
and all of those things, but I think I felt very

36:07.392 --> 36:10.824
supported. And also HR has been invested in

36:10.864 --> 36:15.404
because it's been really chronically underinvested in previously

36:16.104 --> 36:19.520
and I think that support means that I do go

36:19.552 --> 36:22.398
the extra mile to make sure that it's delivered. So,

36:22.446 --> 36:25.470
Touchwood, I feel that there's nothing,

36:25.542 --> 36:28.918
they've not had anything to worry about. If they're listening, it's all

36:29.006 --> 36:33.118
on track and it's just her regular, it's regular updates and

36:33.206 --> 36:36.822
them feeling confident in what we're doing. Yeah,

36:36.838 --> 36:40.286
it's really interesting. I think one of your quotes that you quoted someone

36:40.350 --> 36:43.278
and it was OD, is the alchemy of good performance.

36:43.406 --> 36:47.078
And so therefore, how do you measure alchemy? Yes,

36:47.166 --> 36:51.118
exactly, because it just works, doesn't it, when things are working? Well, we were

36:51.206 --> 36:55.262
interviewing Doctor Aiden Harney from intel last week and he sort of described

36:55.278 --> 36:58.774
himself as the conductor and so it's like ensuring that things all fit

36:58.814 --> 37:02.414
together, but it's very difficult to measure the role of the conductor almost,

37:02.494 --> 37:06.510
isn't it? Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, you know,

37:06.542 --> 37:10.006
when it's not working. And. And I think the

37:10.030 --> 37:13.958
bit that was really important, though, was coming into

37:14.006 --> 37:17.286
the organization not thinking, oh, I know all this,

37:17.430 --> 37:21.190
and it's back to this social construct. And kind of my caution,

37:21.302 --> 37:24.590
really, that came out of my masters, I think I've held onto now for nearly

37:24.622 --> 37:28.014
20 years, which is because your brain does

37:28.054 --> 37:31.006
shortcuts. Our lizard brain does a shortcut. It says, oh,

37:31.030 --> 37:33.766
I've seen this before, and therefore I know how to sort all of this,

37:33.790 --> 37:37.354
you know, it's fine, nothing's, you know, I'm on it.

37:37.814 --> 37:40.870
I didn't want to come in and think, well, I know exactly how all this

37:40.902 --> 37:44.554
needs to happen because I've been the director of OD in a massive organization,

37:44.854 --> 37:48.486
because, of course not. Because this is a completely different culture with

37:48.550 --> 37:51.974
its own, its own foyer balls. The staff

37:52.014 --> 37:56.232
have been through a different experience. You know, the context

37:56.288 --> 37:59.768
is absolutely king. So part of it was really

37:59.816 --> 38:03.480
getting to understand where the organization really is and meet it where

38:03.512 --> 38:07.520
it is and understand kind of what's important to

38:07.552 --> 38:10.992
people and what's gone well, what's not gone well. And how do

38:11.008 --> 38:14.240
you build on that? Because otherwise, if you come in just thinking,

38:14.272 --> 38:17.544
you know, all the answers, I just think that's destined to

38:17.584 --> 38:20.576
fail. And I think too many people, it's a bit back to the, we've got

38:20.600 --> 38:23.932
to know the answer also, a lot of people have too many toolkits where

38:23.948 --> 38:27.132
they think, well, if I just do this because it worked with my previous organization,

38:27.228 --> 38:30.340
and then they can't understand when it doesn't work, and you think, well,

38:30.372 --> 38:34.052
you've got to really take a moment. You haven't got many of these moments,

38:34.108 --> 38:37.356
but you have to take a bit of a breath and a moment to understand

38:37.500 --> 38:41.364
the context you're in and what's going to work in that context.

38:41.524 --> 38:43.900
So I was going to say, I think that's part of the OD lens,

38:43.932 --> 38:47.188
isn't it, that you believe some of the answers are in the system already and

38:47.196 --> 38:50.436
the people, you know, you bring the people into the process of

38:50.460 --> 38:54.236
coming up with the solutions. And it's been hard to do that lots

38:54.380 --> 38:58.516
before because of it being an.org change program. But the future

38:58.620 --> 39:01.980
is now. We're now on this future trajectory where our

39:02.012 --> 39:05.260
real ambition is to really empower people, you know, autonomy,

39:05.292 --> 39:08.828
mastery, purpose. I mean, that Daniel Pink's work,

39:08.876 --> 39:12.412
I was, you know, I've been really taken with that for many years and I

39:12.428 --> 39:16.220
do think there's a lot in that. How do you get intrinsic motivation?

39:16.332 --> 39:20.744
How do you so support people to progress and feel that

39:20.784 --> 39:24.280
they're making a difference? So that's really important to us as

39:24.312 --> 39:27.672
we move forward. I guess the challenge is, though, on the other side of the

39:27.688 --> 39:31.224
equation is their expectations of a senior hire.

39:31.344 --> 39:35.320
So how big, how long a grace period do you actually get before you're seen

39:35.352 --> 39:37.284
to sort of be delivering value?

39:38.904 --> 39:43.112
You get your first cup of tea and then know exactly that

39:43.248 --> 39:46.856
and, you know, going, this was really the

39:46.880 --> 39:50.200
biggest job I've ever gone for. And the process was in and of itself

39:50.272 --> 39:53.784
terrifying because it's, you know, it's, it was,

39:53.904 --> 39:57.800
it's a really big job and. But I

39:57.832 --> 40:01.312
really believed in kind of what I knew could happen.

40:01.368 --> 40:04.672
And the three promises that I made in my interview,

40:04.728 --> 40:07.640
which is I wanted north central London to be a great place to live and

40:07.672 --> 40:10.888
work. I wanted the ICB to be a great place to work and

40:10.896 --> 40:14.640
I wanted it to be the best place to be a people professional. Those are

40:14.672 --> 40:18.072
still the things that I want to do and,

40:18.168 --> 40:21.616
you know, they're still the things that are in our plans

40:21.640 --> 40:25.176
and driving us forward. And I think that's really important.

40:25.280 --> 40:28.704
You know, I'd really thought about what

40:28.744 --> 40:32.200
is the commitment and what can I bring to this role

40:32.312 --> 40:35.512
for the, you know, to support the greatest success of

40:35.528 --> 40:38.848
the system and so far so good, I think.

40:38.896 --> 40:42.456
Touchwood, brilliant. A question that we always ask

40:42.520 --> 40:46.226
is it should be really interesting for yourself to answer along the way.

40:46.250 --> 40:49.882
What are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned? So I think my real

40:49.978 --> 40:54.698
lesson in just general has

40:54.746 --> 40:58.426
been moving at the speed of the system. I have always,

40:58.610 --> 41:02.294
I'm literally always in front. I'm going, come on, everybody.

41:03.434 --> 41:06.778
And I think actually you've got to, is this kind of, you've got to

41:06.826 --> 41:10.290
meet people, you've got to meet the system where it is and work with it.

41:10.402 --> 41:13.396
And I find that sometimes I forget.

41:13.580 --> 41:17.260
I still forget. It's still always learning the same lesson. I think

41:17.292 --> 41:21.284
Brene Brown says, what lesson is the universe continually teaching

41:21.324 --> 41:24.796
you, as she asked in all her podcasts? And this is my lesson,

41:24.940 --> 41:29.012
you know, you know, I'm always really restlessly ambitious for

41:29.068 --> 41:32.572
wherever I am and whatever we're doing. But I think you've really

41:32.628 --> 41:35.996
got to make sure you take people with you and that's crucial

41:36.140 --> 41:40.066
because then otherwise, you know, you are just being the leader

41:40.130 --> 41:43.762
out the front, aren't you? So how do you, you know, how do you

41:43.818 --> 41:47.242
engender that passion and the, you know,

41:47.298 --> 41:50.818
helping people to want to work towards that North Star or that common

41:50.866 --> 41:54.194
purpose? So that's definitely one. So when I thought

41:54.234 --> 41:58.506
about this, I thought patience. But actually it's broader than patience. It's kind of

41:58.650 --> 42:02.258
tempering myself and keeping people where I am.

42:02.386 --> 42:05.618
What are the lessons? So I'm starting. I've got a new

42:05.666 --> 42:08.386
lesson that I want to learn or new skills that I want to learn,

42:08.410 --> 42:11.494
which is more about being in the political space.

42:11.574 --> 42:14.694
That's something for me. That is my

42:14.734 --> 42:18.678
next kind of real area that I want to focus on

42:18.806 --> 42:22.902
because it's an incredibly important relationship that we have with our political

42:22.998 --> 42:27.070
leaders, and it's something that I haven't

42:27.142 --> 42:31.022
yet really managed to sort of

42:31.078 --> 42:34.390
have in my career. So that is something. Well, apart from the Department of

42:34.422 --> 42:37.470
Health when I was working with the secretary of state, but.

42:37.622 --> 42:39.994
So I just sound like I've done a bit of it, but.

42:41.014 --> 42:44.158
But only for, you know, a short period, only a year.

42:44.246 --> 42:47.862
And this is something that I really want to sort of understand more.

42:47.878 --> 42:51.150
And I think there's a lot to learn from local authority colleagues and

42:51.182 --> 42:53.926
elected members in that space. So that is.

42:53.990 --> 42:57.142
So I think it's always be all be curious,

42:57.318 --> 43:00.582
always be learning. These are the things that I would say are

43:00.598 --> 43:04.562
my lessons. You know, you've always got to be refreshing

43:04.618 --> 43:07.986
yourself and realizing what you need to learn next,

43:08.170 --> 43:11.202
which is quite a nice segue into our next question about your own learning and

43:11.218 --> 43:14.346
development. So you talked about doing a masters. How do you invest in your own

43:14.370 --> 43:18.394
learning and development? Now, what does that look like for you? Yeah, so my

43:18.434 --> 43:22.458
most recent program that I've been on is an anti

43:22.506 --> 43:26.666
racism program, how to lead anti racist organizations.

43:26.850 --> 43:30.194
And that was born out of me feeling

43:30.234 --> 43:33.340
like I didn't. I didn't know what to do in a situation at work.

43:33.372 --> 43:36.052
And I thought, Blimey, I'm the chief people officer. I'm meant to know what to

43:36.068 --> 43:38.864
do. A bit like that heroic leadership. But it was more a.

43:39.444 --> 43:42.716
I've noticed that I've got a gap here in

43:42.740 --> 43:46.660
my own sort of skill set. And so there was a

43:46.692 --> 43:50.764
program that's run by a charity called brap, that is,

43:50.884 --> 43:54.356
was for London. So it was run in London for people, leaders in

43:54.380 --> 43:57.868
London. And I walked in thinking, right, okay, brilliant. I'm going

43:57.876 --> 44:00.372
to get all the things that I've said don't do. I'm going to get a

44:00.388 --> 44:03.716
toolkit. Right? So I'm not, you know, I could. I can.

44:03.780 --> 44:07.556
I'm not adverse to thinking all the things everybody else thinks all the time.

44:07.700 --> 44:11.252
And then what I came to realize after about the fourth month of these sessions

44:11.308 --> 44:15.052
was it's all about, it was all about yourself and your own self

44:15.108 --> 44:18.940
awareness and what you know and really

44:19.052 --> 44:22.324
doing some deep work. And I think the bit that's

44:22.364 --> 44:25.540
been fascinating is now I've been having conversations that I would

44:25.572 --> 44:28.772
never have had before. I'm reading things that

44:28.788 --> 44:31.864
I would never have really picked up previously,

44:32.764 --> 44:36.228
and it's really taught me so much.

44:36.276 --> 44:39.140
And now the problem is you can't unsee any of these things.

44:39.332 --> 44:43.064
And so that is a,

44:43.404 --> 44:47.180
that is really challenging, the fact that you, you, once you start

44:47.252 --> 44:50.356
seeing it, you really can't unsee it and then you really have

44:50.380 --> 44:54.468
to do something about it, but acknowledging the situation

44:54.556 --> 44:57.698
that we're all in and the history that we're all

44:57.786 --> 45:00.650
part of. But, yeah, it's been,

45:00.842 --> 45:04.786
you know, absolutely fascinating and it built

45:04.810 --> 45:08.546
some really strong relationships with people in the people profession across

45:08.610 --> 45:10.894
London. To go through something like that together,

45:11.674 --> 45:15.346
you've painted organization development as a really sort of exciting,

45:15.530 --> 45:18.578
invigorating profession. What advice would you give,

45:18.666 --> 45:22.378
like, the next generation of OD practitioners that are coming through

45:22.546 --> 45:25.810
as advice for them in terms of how they might start their career or take

45:25.842 --> 45:29.706
their first steps? Yeah, it's challenging because OD

45:29.770 --> 45:33.242
has so many routes into it. There isn't really a

45:33.258 --> 45:36.538
defined career, and it's such a

45:36.546 --> 45:40.002
hot topic at the moment. So I'm chairing for the NHS England.

45:40.058 --> 45:44.322
I'm chairing our national task and finish group on people profession

45:44.378 --> 45:48.604
career map and how we can help people navigate a career.

45:48.754 --> 45:52.152
And actually what we notice is there's almost, we were

45:52.168 --> 45:55.760
calling it a Venn diagram. You know, you come up through HR or you come

45:55.792 --> 45:59.240
up maybe through learning and development, you might come up through project management or operational

45:59.312 --> 46:02.704
management, and then you kind of people convene into

46:02.744 --> 46:06.240
a point where they all realize they really like change, they really like, you know,

46:06.272 --> 46:09.856
transforming things. And then suddenly there's an OD career that sort

46:09.880 --> 46:13.368
of emerges for people, but it's hard to navigate

46:13.416 --> 46:16.462
and the, the career path. So being a director

46:16.518 --> 46:19.710
of organizational development is a brilliant job.

46:19.782 --> 46:23.150
I absolutely adored it. But there aren't many of

46:23.182 --> 46:26.714
them. There aren't many of these jobs. So I would say

46:27.414 --> 46:31.246
for me, it was just following my passion and,

46:31.430 --> 46:34.886
you know, it led me to kind of go for jobs

46:34.910 --> 46:38.318
that I probably wouldn't have gone for. So a director

46:38.366 --> 46:41.906
of development job was the one. And actually I went for it

46:41.930 --> 46:44.986
because it had business planning in it. Believe it or not, the bit that

46:45.010 --> 46:48.666
I found I absolutely loved, but hadn't really thought about previously

46:48.690 --> 46:51.850
was the OD bit. And so I learned. I learned on the job.

46:51.882 --> 46:55.810
So I think it's really. It's about spotting opportunities and

46:55.842 --> 46:59.490
spotting those things. And maybe so if you are

46:59.522 --> 47:03.738
in the NHS, there is a network called dood through and

47:03.786 --> 47:07.850
there is a lot of resources on there for people to find

47:07.922 --> 47:11.590
out how to do what they call the essentials OD program.

47:11.722 --> 47:15.646
So it's free for anyone who's on in the NHS and

47:15.670 --> 47:19.222
you can start to learn the basics and then you can start

47:19.278 --> 47:22.950
to use them in your day to day. So if your l and D

47:22.982 --> 47:26.166
department runs action learning sets or you want to train

47:26.190 --> 47:29.766
to be a coach, and I think there's little ways that you can nudge your

47:29.790 --> 47:33.634
way into a career like this because

47:34.014 --> 47:37.510
it is quite a challenge. I think it's not quite straightforward.

47:37.662 --> 47:41.140
Go for it. That is the. What was my key message? Definitely go for it

47:41.172 --> 47:44.892
because it is brilliant work. Fantastic, Sarah and I think

47:44.908 --> 47:48.284
that's a really nice place just to finish our conversation today.

47:48.404 --> 47:51.108
Danny and I have been looking forward to this conversation all week and like,

47:51.156 --> 47:54.924
I personally have really enjoyed it. It's definitely lived up to expectations.

47:55.044 --> 47:58.588
Thank you, Sarah. Thank you. I enjoyed it too.

47:58.636 --> 48:02.516
Some of the things I'm going to take away. So put your assumptions aside,

48:02.660 --> 48:05.864
be curious. Always be learning. Take time to

48:05.904 --> 48:09.112
understand the system before you start to change it. Meet the system

48:09.168 --> 48:12.632
where it is. You talked about joy, which I think is something we don't talk

48:12.688 --> 48:15.800
about enough. There should be more joy in our work. And you talked about

48:15.832 --> 48:19.496
the joy of actually developing partnerships, developing collaboration

48:19.680 --> 48:23.240
and building something like that as well. And you also talked about the shift

48:23.272 --> 48:26.536
from heroic leadership to a more sophisticated, collaborative,

48:26.600 --> 48:29.776
more participative form of leadership. And so there's just so

48:29.800 --> 48:32.842
many things that we're taking away from today. And I guess one of the quotes

48:32.858 --> 48:35.578
we want is quite good to leave you with that. We found you sort of

48:35.586 --> 48:39.578
saying was, diversity brings creativity, alignment ensures delivery,

48:39.666 --> 48:42.914
which I thought was a really nice way of sort of talking about how leadership

48:42.954 --> 48:46.442
can be. Thank you. Yes, brilliant. If anyone has

48:46.458 --> 48:50.034
any questions, are the people okay to reach out to you via LinkedIn?

48:50.194 --> 48:53.466
Yes, of course. Yeah, I'm on there. Just Sarah Morgan,

48:53.530 --> 48:57.130
just so hopefully you'll find me there.

48:57.282 --> 48:59.822
Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for your time, Sarah. We really appreciate, we know

48:59.838 --> 49:02.414
you're very busy, so thank you for making time and I know that people are

49:02.914 --> 49:04.558
going to get a lot of value from it as well. So thank you so

49:04.606 --> 49:07.102
much. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you,