Diversity and Inclusion through an OD lens with Anna Spragg - OrgDev Episode 9

This time we catch up with Anna Spragg.  Anna is a Director at Anna Spragg Consultancy where she specialises in people, culture, diversity and inclusion.  We enjoyed meeting Anna at the CIPD OD Conference back in April so were delighted when she agreed to be a guest on the podcast.

In this episode,  we explore with Anna what Diversity and Inclusion looks like through an OD lens and how we can help organisations become more inclusive, effective, and people-centered.  Anna has delivered some fascinating projects with organisations in sectors as varied as Financial and Business Services, Higher Education, the NHS, Local Government, Arts and Culture and Tech.

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live

We'd love to connect with you on Linked In:
linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
https://www.linkedin.com/in/garinrouch

Transcript

WEBVTT

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Hi and welcome to the Dev podcast. Organization development

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is a discipline that has the power to transform organisations,

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shape cultures and empower individuals. And in this podcast we

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delve into the real life experiences of professionals who are driving

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real and significant change in organisations.

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So this podcast is for you, is whether you're a manager, an HR

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professional or even a seasoned od practitioner, curious about this fascinating

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field and looking to learn new approaches that can boost the performance of

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your organisation and unlock the potential of your people.

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So in this episode, we're delving into the world of equality,

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diversity and inclusion. So this is a subject that a lot of organizations

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are grappling with to differing levels of success. So we've sought out

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a guest who has taken a holistic approach to this field

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and ensuring it doesn't become a tick box exercise, but actually shifts

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organisation culture. So when Danny came to

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me at the CIPD organization Development conference

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and she said, I've just met this lady and her name is Anna Sprague and

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she is just doing some great work in this field, we were really keen

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to see if we could actually invite her onto the podcast and we kept her

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name and we racially approached her and she very generously said yes to us.

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So we're absolutely delighted that Anna's joining us today. Anna's held different roles

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in the field, global diversity inclusion engagement consultant,

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and she's also been an Ed and I and OD manager at

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Goldsmith University as well. So it's a really varied background

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that she's got and brings a lot of different perspectives as well. So welcome,

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Anna, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks very much for having me.

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I'm joined by Danny, my colleague. And Danny is the brainchild behind this particular

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session. So, Danny, do you want to just say hi? Hello, everyone, lovely to be

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here. Thanks, Anna, for joining us. Great. So, Danny, do you want to just go

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first with the first question? Yeah, just to kick us off. So just tell us

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a bit about yourself, Anna, what is it you do? What's your role? Yes,

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thank you. So, I'm the director of a consultancy business.

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It's Anna Sprague consultancy and we specialize in people,

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culture and diversity and inclusion. So what I'm

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doing in my consultancy role, I suppose, is really varied and every

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day is completely different. I work with a variety of different organizations from

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across different sectors and I also partner with other consultancies as

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well. The type of work I'm doing is really leading the

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development and delivery of projects and strategies related to people

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and diversity and inclusion. But I could be doing leadership

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development one day, facilitating another, and doing kind of

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being involved in operational conversations the next. So it's really

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varied, but I really enjoy that collaboration and

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working with different people all the time. Absolutely love what I do in that respect.

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Brilliant. And there's lots of different things. So whether you're doing sort of leadership

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development or, you know, sort of operational development, is it

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through like an Ed and I lens that you're trying to sort of create culture

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change? Is it? So it's a bit of both, really. I mean, I try and

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do see everything that I do through the lens of inclusion as it

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should be. You know, if we're actually going to make really effective organizations,

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then we should be thinking about how that impacts different groups of people

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and how that creates a culture of belonging, which is ultimately what we're trying to

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achieve anyway in organisations. And, you know, we know how effective

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people feel when they feel like a sense of belonging. So I suppose everything

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that I do, I do see through the lens of inclusion and I would also

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sort of advocate through that, advocate for that approach in terms

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of how anyone should deliver sort of organizational development work.

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Really brilliant. Thanks, Anna. So, organization development,

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we speak to lots of people about organization development. They've each had their own journey

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into the field of OED. So what was your particular route?

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How did you find organisation development? Yeah, so I feel

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like organizational development found me in a strange way.

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Just to give you a bit of a background as to sort of my journey,

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I've got a background in generalist HR. You know, I started out in the

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NHS, higher education as well, Oxford University,

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Imperial College. And what brought me firstly to the sort of

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professional world of diversity and inclusion was working on

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a project around trans inclusion back in 2013 at Imperial College,

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and it ended up being recognized as one of the first sort of projects of

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its kind, really, in higher education, and it really put imperial on

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the map in terms of trans equality at the time. So I

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don't know, something about doing this project lit something within me and it

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really made me realize that diversity and inclusion and later organizational

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development more broadly, was the right path for

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me. I moved then full time into this role

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when I found, and I found a bit of a home, I suppose, in Goldsmiths,

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University of London. There I had the space and the

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support to do some really big strategic projects and strategies and

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also be quite creative in the work that I did. And once I got my

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teeth into that, there was really no looking back. So I moved to Brighton

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and that's where I later did some work with the local authority, and I

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dipped my toe at that point in the world of consultancy as well.

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And then finally in lockdown, I took the plunge and started my

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consultancy business full time. I've been going for three years now,

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and I've since worked with all sorts of organizations doing some sort of really great,

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great work in this area.

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Everyone from financial services organizations to arts

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and culture, NHS, tech charities,

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all sorts of different organizations. And I also find that higher education,

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sometimes it still brings me back. It pulls me back in as well.

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So I do find myself working with universities often as well. Can I

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just ask a question as well? I have so many questions based on what you

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just said there, but obviously you have, there are a number of

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sort of diversity inclusion specialists out there, both in

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house and external as well. What is it about doing

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diversity inclusion through OD?

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Like, what does that look like? That's slightly different. So I think

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there's something about having a bigger picture approach to the work that we're

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doing, because ultimately, when we look at what's going on around

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diversity and inclusion, a lot of the issues are systemic and structural

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issues. So, you know, if we do, if we took a really narrow

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focus by just doing a tiny initiative here without really thinking about the wider

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issues, the wider context, we're not really going to have a sustainable

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or effective project. You know, it might sort of tick a box at one

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time, but will it really make sustained change or lasting

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change? I don't know, is the honest answer. So I

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really do think having that broad perspective where we look at the system,

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we look at what's going on, both positive and negative, we think of it

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through a kind of cultural lens. I think that's where we'll have more bang

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for our buck, will make more, greater things happen.

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And I think kind of that sustainability, which is really, really important at making things

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effective and meaningful, that's why I take that approach.

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William. And do you find that, like, when someone approaches you to help them

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with a thing, you'll often try and invite them to take a step back

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and say, actually, it's more complex than this,

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there's more factors at play and how open are they

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to that kind of thinking? Yeah. So I absolutely understand

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what you're saying there. And that does happen. I think sometimes people don't

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necessarily know what's really the basis of one of

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the challenges that they're facing. And that's where practitioners like

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myself can come in and have a look and think, actually, what problem are we

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actually trying to solve here? Sometimes it's not the initial problem that you

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might think. And actually that's where that kind of systemic approach is better,

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I think looking a bit more holistically at things and

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then going from that basis. So I certainly have challenges.

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Some people, more often than not, people are actually very open to

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having someone have a second set of eyes on things and do things in

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a way that's meaningful and authentic them, which is what I'm all about,

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really. Occasionally there'll be someone who doesn't really see that,

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or perhaps, dare I say, they're trying to tick a box.

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And that's something I'm not going to necessarily work with them on because

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we're the wrong fit in that situation, and that's absolutely fine. One of the

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things we're trying to do with this podcast is just demystify organization development a

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little bit. So you said your role's really varied, and it might be leadership development

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one day. So just tell us a little bit about what's the typical week look

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like for you? Yeah, so this was a really challenging. This is a really challenging

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question to answer, because even a typical week isn't a typical week,

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you know, but I'll say, you know,

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and I love that, to be honest. I love the variety.

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So I'll try and explain a little bit about how my work kind of how

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it unravels, I suppose. So my clients

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work with me in different ways, depending on what their end goal is.

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So we might be working on very different things with one client to another.

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So it may be that we've got a kind of a long term strategy development

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project. I'm working with an organization over six months or

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more, in which case it will have different phases

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of the project, from an engagement phase to a design phase,

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or it could be kind of operational elements of that. So depending

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on what phase we're at in the project, I will. Obviously, I might have a

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lot of engagement going on at that time for one client,

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and that might be face to face facilitation. It might be development,

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it might be focus groups. There could be a number of

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things there. If I'm in that design phase, I might be have my head down

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on a laptop, right, for hours, like literally not coming

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up fair. And then there is obviously more operational thing

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I'm doing where I'm kind of in working, almost like I'm a member of

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an organization and right in there working with colleagues on the ground,

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trying to get the operational stuff going, perhaps doing an organizational review,

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or just really working collaborating with them to see what will land and what will

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work. So those are the sorts of things I might be doing.

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I might also be, as I said earlier, delivering training. Some organizations I just

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purely do training for, or I do, like, leadership development work.

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As I said, it could have been reviews. And then finally there is the

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kind of future thinking stuff. So it could be writing new proposals for new

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organizations or developing relationships with clients

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that I might work with in the future. So that probably doesn't capture half

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of what I do, but that does hopefully give you a sense of the variety

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that comes with it. Sounds great. I think I've got job envy.

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That's really interesting. And just a couple

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of questions here. So with organizations, like,

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how would they know, like, what might be some of the data

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or symptoms that are telling them that they might have a diversity inclusion issue

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and they might need some support with this?

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Yes. So, I mean, there's so many. There's so many things that you can see

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that will point to an inclusion issue and generally

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an engagement issue as well. I think engagement and diversity and inclusion

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really do go hand in hand, but you could see it through things

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like retention rates. You know, if you can't hold on to colleagues,

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there's maybe a. It might be a symptom of a cultural issue.

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People want to stay places that they have a good time, you know, that they

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feel they can trust people that, you know, they feel valued,

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and again, feeling that sense of belonging. So I think things like retention,

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things even like productivity, attracting talent as

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well. If you can't find people, like, what are your competitors doing to find

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those people? Why are they going there? Sometimes it's,

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you know, we look at things through the lens of how much are we being

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paid? But actually it goes much, much further beyond just pay.

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People want purpose. They want to, like, trust their managers.

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They want to know that they've got progression opportunities.

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So there's so many things that you can look at. All of those things I've

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mentioned that might be a symptom of around, you know, are we actually inclusive and

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are we actually fostering a kind of sense of belonging?

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Really? There's something about also psychological safety that I often talk

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about with clients. I think without, if you don't

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have a psychologically safe organization, then people are just going to

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leave and they're not going to perform their best. And I think that very much

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ties in with that culture of belonging as well.

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I was watching you on another podcast, and you were talking about the importance of

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people having curiosity and that sometimes people are a little

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bit reticent to when they're just starting to engage in these types of

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conversations that they don't want to sound wrong or whatever.

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And you said something which is about, like, you're always learning about diversity,

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inclusion and new things as well. So how

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can senior leaders that are maybe just wanting

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to gauge you in the right way, what would you say were some of the

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things that would really help them as they begin that journey?

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Yeah, so you're absolutely right. I really, really advocate for

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creating a space that people can explore things openly.

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We're, unfortunately, in a bit of a culture where everyone's really scared to get

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things wrong, to say the wrong things. And,

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you know, I really think it's quite unhelpful in the space.

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So it's something that, you know, when I'm working with senior leadership teams, I'm very

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much trying to say, you know, we're going to make mistakes. I make mistakes all

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the time. Everyone does. You know, we're all humans.

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So for me, it's about, let's just start learning about

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people. Let's hearing. Hearing about lived experiences, perhaps start

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slow, start in a way that's kind of where you can say

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things that, you know, get things wrong, say things that you perhaps don't mean at

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first, and then. And then learn. I think it's about. It's like, kind of going

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also sort of having a bit of a growth mindset and

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knowing that everyone's on a learning journey around this topic.

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You know, everyone's in a different space, and there's always more you can learn.

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I think also by me saying that, hopefully it brings helps people to

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feel more confident as well. It kind of almost gives permission for others to be

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open about the fact that they don't know everything as well. So your very varied

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role. Well, what's the one thing you enjoy most? If you have to pick one

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element of your role, what is it that really brings you alive, energizes you?

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So it's really hard to pick one thing, actually.

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But I would if I. So there are many things,

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but I will say I love a good strategic

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challenge, and that sounds really geeky, but I

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think sometimes I would say my brain needs to

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be working or needs to be used, I suppose, in a certain way, or I

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get quite bored or. And even depressed, actually. So, you know,

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I feel like people who are in OD

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and culture naturally see that bigger picture and kind

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of have that strategic thinking brain, and I think it's a muscle

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that kind of needs to be flexed, really. So when I've got something,

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a new project that I can really get my teeth into. It's the only way

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of me describing it and have the opportunity to be creative in that space.

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I think that's what I really, really enjoy the most about the work that I'm

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doing. Yeah, no, that's really interesting, isn't it?

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I guess, like all OD people, we are a little bit geeky at

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heart, don't we? Do what would be

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some of the strategic challenges you've enjoyed the most in terms of, like.

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Because often it's sort of just where often OD practitioners really enjoy

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getting to the heart of what the problem is. What have been some of the

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biggest challenges along the way that you enjoyed working with? Yeah, I remember

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that this. I remember at the start of my consultancy

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career, as it were, I worked with a

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NHS integrated care system, which is,

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I think it was five NHS trusts, three local authorities

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and a number of charities and local statutory

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services. And they work as a system and that's a lot of complexity,

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that's all coming together. Wow. Yes,

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absolutely. So I had to. I was tasked with trying to

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find a kind of localized approach

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to equality, diversity and inclusion across this whole system of

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very different organizations. I remember starting

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that project. I was like, how on earth am I meant to do

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this? It was. I had no idea.

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I remember being, like, feeling just an immense amount of challenge of, like, how on

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earth do I make this happen? You know? And it's setting something up from scratch

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as well, which I particularly like, because it's, you know, you've got a bit

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more autonomy and creativity in that space. So there was something

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about that sort of challenge where I'm like, absolutely have no idea how

15:46.068 --> 15:50.108
I'm going to do it. And then really working on that by kind of

15:50.236 --> 15:53.700
just unpicking it gradually. And I'm quite a visual person,

15:53.772 --> 15:57.308
so I kind of map everything out and start. And then I start getting little,

15:57.396 --> 16:01.028
I start joining the dots and seeing how things kind of could

16:01.076 --> 16:04.804
work and testing it out with all the different partners and colleagues.

16:04.924 --> 16:08.472
I'll just draw on that example because it. It was a real head scratch and

16:08.488 --> 16:11.384
I think I really like it when I've got something like that that's so big,

16:11.424 --> 16:15.184
it's almost impossible. They're my favourite kinds of projects,

16:15.224 --> 16:17.604
but I'm a bit of a glutton for punishment as well.

16:19.624 --> 16:22.992
And then thinking about, what do you find most challenging in the work that you

16:23.008 --> 16:25.864
do? What's the thing that you find hardest? Yeah.

16:25.904 --> 16:29.048
So obviously doing organizational development

16:29.136 --> 16:33.048
and diversity and inclusion work doesn't come without its challenges.

16:33.176 --> 16:36.784
And, you know, culture change does take time, you know, quite a long

16:36.824 --> 16:40.888
time sometimes. And I think some organizations can be quite short sighted about this.

16:40.936 --> 16:44.344
So in times of financial hardship,

16:44.384 --> 16:48.000
you know, the current context being one time, you know, that we're going through,

16:48.152 --> 16:51.600
I think organizations do tend to, you know, some organizations,

16:51.632 --> 16:54.888
I should say, do stop investing in their people and also

16:54.936 --> 16:58.264
in their projects. So some of these sort of more strategic projects around

16:58.304 --> 17:01.536
diversity and inclusion might be the first thing that get cut,

17:01.720 --> 17:04.864
you know, and obviously that does have an impact on people's

17:04.904 --> 17:08.480
experiences at work and also the people in our profession doing the

17:08.512 --> 17:12.024
work, you know, whether that be in house doing the work or as an external

17:12.064 --> 17:16.032
consultant. So I think that's, that's something that's quite a

17:16.048 --> 17:19.424
challenging, it's quite a challenging context to be working in generally.

17:19.544 --> 17:23.364
And I will also say, speaking about diversity and inclusion specifically,

17:23.664 --> 17:27.200
you can really see the organizations who meant what they said about, like,

17:27.232 --> 17:30.436
really believing in diversity and inclusion and those who were jumping

17:30.460 --> 17:34.744
on the bandwagon in the wake of the Black Lives Matter movement back in 2020,

17:35.884 --> 17:39.636
you can see that some organizations might just focus

17:39.700 --> 17:43.260
on what perhaps the hot topic is of the time and then

17:43.292 --> 17:46.884
others. And when that is the case, it doesn't speak to that lasting

17:46.924 --> 17:50.348
or kind of meaningful change. So that's something that I've noticed.

17:50.396 --> 17:53.516
Yeah. And you've touched on a really important subject there, isn't it? Because there are

17:53.540 --> 17:57.428
senior leaders that also watch this podcast. And when you say organizations that truly

17:57.476 --> 18:01.686
mean it, what is the role of senior leadership in

18:01.790 --> 18:05.406
sort of sponsoring these initiatives or commissioning or

18:05.430 --> 18:09.334
even role modeling it as well? Huge.

18:09.414 --> 18:12.486
They play a huge role. In fact, one of the most important roles, I would

18:12.510 --> 18:16.366
say, in, in this work, I think it really needs to be championed from the

18:16.390 --> 18:20.554
top. People on the ground need to see leaders walking the talk.

18:20.974 --> 18:24.286
You know, a lot of what I'm talking about with leaders is

18:24.310 --> 18:27.702
around inclusive leadership, competencies, behaviours and how it, what it

18:27.718 --> 18:31.648
means to actually walk that talk. It's so, so important. And I

18:31.656 --> 18:35.496
think something that really can undermine this work is when

18:35.600 --> 18:38.792
someone says a really good statement but then doesn't back it up and, or it

18:38.808 --> 18:41.592
falls off the map. Off the map a bit like maybe a year later.

18:41.768 --> 18:45.200
So, you know, I really think it's important that leaders are doing this,

18:45.272 --> 18:48.404
this work and it is doing the work like all of us are,

18:48.744 --> 18:52.080
to kind of become better and have that growth mindset around diversity

18:52.112 --> 18:55.680
and inclusion. Yeah. And you've talked before about

18:55.712 --> 18:58.978
sort of holding the mirror up. And often it is about holding the mirror up

18:58.986 --> 19:01.842
to the sort of the senior leadership, isn't it, to either sort of get them

19:01.858 --> 19:05.146
to understand how their behavior is impacting the organization or even

19:05.170 --> 19:08.442
just to give them a feel of how the organization actually is.

19:08.578 --> 19:12.498
And sometimes that might be information they don't want to hear or

19:12.586 --> 19:16.522
information that is uncomfortable or whatever, like what are your

19:16.698 --> 19:19.682
approaches for how you actually hold the mirror to an organization to help it understand

19:19.778 --> 19:22.614
where it actually is and the state of the nation?

19:23.414 --> 19:27.454
Yes, I'll obviously use a number of different approaches to

19:27.574 --> 19:31.166
kind of share the evidence and the story of what's going

19:31.190 --> 19:34.630
on in an organization. Often there's so

19:34.662 --> 19:38.206
many benefits to doing the work around diversity and inclusion and then the

19:38.230 --> 19:41.782
OD piece more broadly. So I'm really one for selling the

19:41.798 --> 19:45.462
benefits because it's all about making organisations better and

19:45.598 --> 19:48.934
that then speaks to what they're trying to do as leaders. So I'm very

19:48.974 --> 19:52.124
much about actually helping them do their jobs the most effectively,

19:52.204 --> 19:56.308
you know, that they can, they can do it. So it's not really about doing

19:56.356 --> 20:00.144
something different, it's more about making their jobs easier and better and

20:00.564 --> 20:04.412
supporting an organization to be good. So that's all about the benefits for me.

20:04.588 --> 20:07.844
But then there's also some compelling arguments on the other side of

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the spectrum, isn't there? And that might be showing what

20:11.948 --> 20:15.508
the data is looking like, it might be showing the data of their competitors

20:15.556 --> 20:18.264
or, you know, the picture of a competitor in the same sector.

20:19.044 --> 20:22.668
There's a number of ways that we can kind of hold a mirror up to

20:22.716 --> 20:25.132
organizations. So if you look back at all the work you've been involved in,

20:25.148 --> 20:27.596
what are the things that you're most proud of? Where do you feel like you've

20:27.620 --> 20:31.140
made the biggest impact? I've worked with lots of senior leadership teams and

20:31.172 --> 20:34.164
boards and, you know, it's really great when, you know,

20:34.204 --> 20:37.220
it's obviously really nice to get good feedback where they've said, you know,

20:37.252 --> 20:40.580
organisations have changed as a result of projects that I've worked

20:40.612 --> 20:44.124
on. You know, as I said, it's all about developing that culture of belonging.

20:44.164 --> 20:47.836
So it's all about having an impact on people's

20:48.020 --> 20:51.068
ability to thrive at work, being happy, engaged, productive,

20:51.116 --> 20:55.028
etcetera. So that's just seeing

20:55.156 --> 20:59.188
evidence around that is really good in terms of engagement levels, retention rates,

20:59.236 --> 21:03.244
things like that, even unattracting diverse talent. I love

21:03.284 --> 21:06.412
seeing the impact of that work and that's something that I'm particularly looking at when

21:06.428 --> 21:09.944
it comes to looking at the impacts of my own efforts

21:10.244 --> 21:13.676
and then also reflecting on that on a micro

21:13.740 --> 21:17.284
level, I think even having an impact on a positive impact

21:17.324 --> 21:20.900
on one individual kind of brings me joy as well. So I did

21:20.932 --> 21:24.892
some LGBTQ inclusion training earlier this year, and someone came up to

21:24.908 --> 21:28.116
me afterwards and told me that, you know, it made a really huge impact on

21:28.140 --> 21:32.148
them and really opened their eyes up about, you know, the lived experience of

21:32.316 --> 21:35.692
a community of people. And just hearing

21:35.748 --> 21:39.644
comments like that really feels so worthwhile to me. Having one person

21:39.684 --> 21:43.654
go away with a new perspective and then become a real active ally afterwards,

21:43.844 --> 21:47.170
that's all you can really ask for. So both sides

21:47.202 --> 21:50.642
on that kind of macro and micro level really support me to

21:50.658 --> 21:53.402
feel like I'm doing a good job. That sounds amazing.

21:53.578 --> 21:56.986
And I guess, is there a compelling case for

21:57.090 --> 22:00.694
does diversity actually positively impact organization performance?

22:01.834 --> 22:05.370
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of research on

22:05.402 --> 22:10.010
this, both on the business bottom line. There's lots of data on if

22:10.042 --> 22:13.346
money is your kind of driver, there's a lot of data out

22:13.370 --> 22:16.946
there on how it kind of impacts the business's bottom line.

22:17.130 --> 22:20.754
But also, we know organizations who have kind of diversity

22:20.794 --> 22:24.970
front and center of their strategy. People are more engaged and productive,

22:25.122 --> 22:28.338
more innovative. Think of in the tech world,

22:28.386 --> 22:32.334
the likes of Google and other organizations really, really know how important

22:32.634 --> 22:36.106
diversity is in that space. And that's why they put it front and center

22:36.130 --> 22:38.586
of the work that they do, because they really want to be the most innovative

22:38.650 --> 22:42.250
they can be. And I think, you know, ultimately, when we're going through

22:42.282 --> 22:45.826
periods of change and challenging periods like we've just done with the

22:45.850 --> 22:49.274
pandemic, having different strengths and skills around

22:49.314 --> 22:52.986
the table, able to problem solve things, it just makes sense, doesn't it?

22:53.010 --> 22:56.258
We want people who are going to help the organization be resilient

22:56.306 --> 23:00.082
in those really, really challenging times of change. And that's where diversity

23:00.138 --> 23:03.642
obviously plays a huge role as well. So organizations, if you're watching

23:03.658 --> 23:06.904
this, hold your nerve. When it gets choppy, hold your

23:06.944 --> 23:10.560
nerve. Keep the initiatives going, because it does actually. It is not nice to

23:10.592 --> 23:14.216
have, is it? Yeah. And do the work now when it's, you know, if you're

23:14.240 --> 23:17.320
in a period where it's not so turbulent, do the good work

23:17.352 --> 23:20.776
now. Get lots of people around the table who bring different strengths. It's all about

23:20.800 --> 23:24.432
having different strengths, different gifts. And then when you get to those,

23:24.488 --> 23:27.480
those perhaps more challenging times, you're there to weather the storm.

23:27.552 --> 23:30.704
You know, you're coming back fighting. Fabulous. And what do you think the biggest obstacles

23:30.744 --> 23:34.386
are to organizations putting diversity, inclusion and belonging kind of

23:34.410 --> 23:37.774
more front and center. So I think

23:38.794 --> 23:42.002
there's lots of challenges to doing the work. I think, I mean, some of the

23:42.018 --> 23:45.282
obstacles are there will be a financial element to it. Like I said earlier,

23:45.418 --> 23:49.254
I'm sure a lot of those more strategic projects have been cut generally.

23:49.634 --> 23:53.386
So there's obviously a financial element. I think sometimes there

23:53.410 --> 23:57.054
isn't the adequate people resource to actually drive it forward

23:57.714 --> 24:00.852
internally. I think it doesn't need to have people on the

24:00.868 --> 24:04.348
ground who actually going to embed the work. And I don't think you

24:04.356 --> 24:07.540
can purely rely on a consultant to come and do the work externally. It does

24:07.572 --> 24:10.264
need to be kind of then championed and led from the inside.

24:10.964 --> 24:14.532
Going back to the leadership, the leadership conversation, I think having

24:14.588 --> 24:18.420
leaders that will actually really stand behind it and champion the

24:18.452 --> 24:21.892
work, it has to happen. It can't just be led from the HR team either.

24:22.028 --> 24:25.612
It has to be something that the whole organization adopts. So I

24:25.628 --> 24:29.356
think that there's some of the key things to think about. Yeah, I guess that's

24:29.380 --> 24:32.892
the eternal challenge, isn't it, Danny, you worked as an HR director.

24:32.988 --> 24:36.476
It's trying to get the business to actually own the people strategy

24:36.580 --> 24:39.864
and all the other elements that are so important as well. Excellent.

24:40.324 --> 24:43.908
You've mentioned this is associated with the last question,

24:43.956 --> 24:47.620
but when I stop for you, you talked about something which I thought was

24:47.652 --> 24:50.332
really interesting and it kind of links to some of the work that Danny and

24:50.348 --> 24:53.516
I do. So when people join organizations, there's a really

24:53.580 --> 24:57.620
good way of actually joining an organization to sort of stack the odds of success

24:57.692 --> 25:02.104
that they're going to work out. And you've talked in the past about social induction.

25:02.804 --> 25:05.676
Can you just talk us through that a little bit? Like what is it and

25:05.700 --> 25:09.436
what can organizations do to really help people integrate into

25:09.460 --> 25:12.476
the organisation? Well, yeah, absolutely.

25:12.540 --> 25:16.012
So when I talk about social induction, I'm always referring

25:16.068 --> 25:19.604
to the social elements of starting

25:19.684 --> 25:23.664
a new job. It can't be underestimated.

25:23.704 --> 25:27.088
So I think people, you know, I think it's very, some people are

25:27.096 --> 25:30.088
very quick to put a lovely process in place where,

25:30.136 --> 25:33.376
you know, you're throwing documents at someone, perhaps they're reading them, maybe they're doing their

25:33.400 --> 25:36.624
e learning. But actually, you know, what really, really matters

25:36.664 --> 25:40.240
to an organ, to a person when they join an organization is feeling

25:40.312 --> 25:44.488
safe, feeling like a warm welcome, perhaps feeling protected,

25:44.656 --> 25:47.960
perhaps feeling like there's someone who's got their back straight away.

25:48.112 --> 25:50.872
And also that it's a place that they actually want to be because, you know,

25:50.888 --> 25:54.646
we spend so much time with our colleagues. I think

25:54.790 --> 25:58.094
all of those first interactions that we have with an organisation make a huge

25:58.134 --> 26:02.286
impact on whether we're going to, a, accept the offer, b join and

26:02.350 --> 26:05.854
c, stick around, really. So I'm always talking very

26:05.894 --> 26:09.638
much about, let's have a real person centered approach to induction, rather than,

26:09.766 --> 26:13.366
you know, a process centered approach. And I know it does take a little bit

26:13.390 --> 26:17.142
more legwork, perhaps sometimes, because it does require people to be available

26:17.318 --> 26:21.020
and it requires you to perhaps spend a bit of extra time building a relationship

26:21.052 --> 26:24.476
with that person. But I think it pays in dividends. Like later on.

26:24.500 --> 26:27.584
I think it's really, really makes a huge impact and it's really important.

26:28.564 --> 26:32.540
Yeah. And I guess often with the more senior the appointment, the higher expectancy,

26:32.572 --> 26:35.836
they'll be delivering quicker. So the shorter the induction almost,

26:35.900 --> 26:38.468
isn't it? But it's such an important element, isn't it?

26:38.636 --> 26:42.508
Yeah. And I think that social induction, in the world of hybrid as well,

26:42.596 --> 26:45.996
it's even more important than ever, isn't it, to create that sense

26:46.020 --> 26:48.914
of belonging and induct people in that way.

26:49.044 --> 26:52.534
Yeah, I completely. Yeah, completely agree. It's been a really strange time, you know,

26:52.654 --> 26:55.494
doing, moving. Well, some organizations have always been hybrid,

26:55.534 --> 26:59.190
but for those who have moved to a hybrid model, I think grappling

26:59.262 --> 27:02.766
with bringing new people on board and then that induction, it has been a

27:02.790 --> 27:06.486
strange time that people have really tried to work through and it has had its

27:06.510 --> 27:09.950
cultural implications, hasn't it, on people feeling like they belong somewhere.

27:10.062 --> 27:13.062
So, you know, I can. I totally agree there. Yes. So what would you say

27:13.078 --> 27:15.754
the biggest lessons you've learned in your career so far are?

27:16.484 --> 27:20.012
So, yeah, I would say, first of all, that, you know, a career doesn't have

27:20.028 --> 27:23.412
to be linear. And I think when I first started out in HR,

27:23.468 --> 27:26.036
I just assumed that that was the way you just had to work your way

27:26.060 --> 27:30.140
up the ladder and that was that. But actually, I think if something doesn't

27:30.172 --> 27:33.436
feel right, you know, or, you know, you shouldn't feel compelled to

27:33.460 --> 27:36.732
stay somewhere, it doesn't have to be linear. You know, you can move around,

27:36.788 --> 27:40.004
build your experience, you know, make some wrong turns,

27:40.044 --> 27:43.700
make some right turns, and that's what it should all be about. So that's something

27:43.732 --> 27:47.246
that I certainly learned in my career. And the other thing is,

27:47.270 --> 27:50.834
you know, I have had quite a lot of challenges and setbacks along the way,

27:51.774 --> 27:54.422
and I think the key thing has been, you know, getting back off on the

27:54.438 --> 27:57.998
horse every time you get a knock back somewhere and just staying true to yourself.

27:58.086 --> 28:01.646
So I think in the end, some of the setbacks I've experienced have actually

28:01.710 --> 28:05.006
ended up being huge blessings in disguise. So that's something I just wanted

28:05.030 --> 28:08.366
to say because I'm sure other people have felt that as well, or might feel

28:08.390 --> 28:11.190
that in the future in their careers. Yeah. And it helps you get a more

28:11.222 --> 28:15.254
rounded experience as well, doesn't it? Sometimes people can just follow a pathway

28:15.294 --> 28:18.670
straight up and their experiences quite narrow, whereas it sounds like you've had a really

28:18.702 --> 28:22.166
broad range of experiences in different sectors and doing different types of

28:22.190 --> 28:25.518
tasks as well. Yeah, I think it's about, you know, there's not just

28:25.566 --> 28:29.334
one pathway to having a career in this sector. I think,

28:29.414 --> 28:32.702
follow your gut and, you know, do what's right for you. And I think that's.

28:32.758 --> 28:36.206
That's the key to my, my thoughts on this. And I think that thing

28:36.230 --> 28:40.006
about learning from your setbacks is really important too. I think often you look back

28:40.030 --> 28:43.166
at the challenges and the things that didn't go well and you learn much more

28:43.190 --> 28:45.974
from those than you did, than you do from the things that have gone perfectly.

28:46.014 --> 28:50.742
So. Yeah, really? With you on that, we should do a special episode on setbacks

28:50.758 --> 28:51.674
and challenges.

28:54.094 --> 28:56.194
Oh, I've got plenty to add for that one.

28:59.374 --> 29:02.222
So, another question for you. So we spend a lot of our time in OD,

29:02.278 --> 29:06.086
helping others learn and develop and grow and adapt to change.

29:06.270 --> 29:08.830
How do you invest in your own knowing and development? What do you find most

29:08.862 --> 29:11.724
valuable in terms of your own development?

29:12.344 --> 29:15.808
So I would say, to be honest, I get the most out

29:15.816 --> 29:19.832
of talking to people and through relationship building

29:19.928 --> 29:23.224
and learning from others. So perhaps I don't

29:23.304 --> 29:27.176
learn as well in the most traditional methods, but I certainly learned

29:27.200 --> 29:30.816
by just exposing myself, I suppose, to people's

29:30.960 --> 29:34.544
thoughts, ideas and just having kind of informal chats

29:34.584 --> 29:38.008
to people, trying to work out where people's challenges are, like trying to work out

29:38.016 --> 29:41.348
where the shared challenges are. What would you do in this situation? Have you

29:41.356 --> 29:44.580
got any advice on this? You know, being really open and kind of collaborating where

29:44.612 --> 29:48.276
possible with people. That's how I've ended up learning.

29:48.420 --> 29:52.268
I still learn every day. And the other thing is throwing yourself into

29:52.356 --> 29:56.324
experiences that you haven't done before. You know, sometimes you don't realize how many

29:56.364 --> 30:00.196
things you maybe have done in the past that you can apply in different contexts.

30:00.300 --> 30:03.716
So I think learning by doing is ultimately my way

30:03.740 --> 30:07.484
of learning. So what advice would you give to somebody who's considering a career in

30:07.524 --> 30:10.920
organisation development? Yeah, so, I mean,

30:10.992 --> 30:14.680
echoing my previous answer, I would say listen to and speak

30:14.712 --> 30:18.000
to as many people doing organizational development,

30:18.112 --> 30:21.800
diversity and inclusion work as possible and find out really

30:21.992 --> 30:25.336
if it's actually what will make you tick. The reality of it. You know,

30:25.360 --> 30:29.712
I would just take every opportunity to learn to network, build relationships with people

30:29.768 --> 30:33.216
who are working in the space and then also just find

30:33.320 --> 30:37.636
a way of helping out on as many strategic people projects as you can or

30:37.660 --> 30:40.596
doing perhaps doing work on the side around diversity and inclusion,

30:40.660 --> 30:44.020
organizational development. It could be outside of work even if

30:44.092 --> 30:47.460
you don't have the opportunities in your current role. I just really think

30:47.492 --> 30:51.292
it's finding ways to build your experience and understand if what

30:51.308 --> 30:54.904
it is in practice is something that really resonates with you and fires you up.

30:55.804 --> 30:58.812
I must say, you know, I think if you put that time and effort and

30:58.828 --> 31:02.316
graft in early on in your career and really find out if it's

31:02.340 --> 31:04.948
the right fit for you, it will pay off. It will pay off in the

31:04.956 --> 31:08.892
long run. Brilliant. Well, Anna, honestly, thank you so

31:08.948 --> 31:11.956
much for your time. We really appreciate it. You've given us so many things to

31:11.980 --> 31:15.260
think about as well. Some of the things I'm sort of taking away is just

31:15.292 --> 31:18.892
the importance of big picture strategic thinking and

31:19.028 --> 31:22.676
not just taking things at face value and thinking about how things are maybe more

31:22.700 --> 31:25.756
complex. The importance of saying no to make sure it's the

31:25.780 --> 31:28.812
right fit as well. I really like the thing you were saying in terms of

31:28.828 --> 31:31.612
the relationship between engagement, diversity and inclusion,

31:31.708 --> 31:34.820
and often sort of how they connect and the fact that

31:34.852 --> 31:38.268
culture takes time, but often companies don't give it the time.

31:38.316 --> 31:42.596
So how do you encourage organizations to keep their nerve, particularly when

31:42.620 --> 31:45.908
the results aren't going to come straight away and when things get choppy,

31:45.956 --> 31:49.836
and the importance of doing the work while the sun is shining as well.

31:49.940 --> 31:53.468
And that concept of social induction, importance of organizations,

31:53.516 --> 31:56.932
meaning what they say, and also that senior leaders have

31:56.988 --> 32:00.268
such a critical role to play on so many levels in terms of

32:00.356 --> 32:04.260
making sure that their organizations really do promote the whole DNI

32:04.292 --> 32:07.836
agenda as well. So, Anna, huge. Thank you. We're so delighted

32:07.860 --> 32:11.324
to hear that someone like you is actually out in the field doing brilliant work

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taking Od to Ed and I. So, Anna, if people have

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been listening to what you've said today, and maybe they've identified some of the problems

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and challenges that you've been discussing in their organization,

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or if they're just curious about who Ed and I field and they'd like to

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ask you a question, what's the best way for people to get in contact with

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you and understand a little bit more about the work that you're doing. Yeah.

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So people can find me on LinkedIn. Anna Sprague on LinkedIn. Feel free

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to drop me a message if anyone's interested in getting in touch or connecting.

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And also if anyone wants to have an informal, exploratory conversation

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with me, you know, we'd love to, love to have some further conversations.

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I can be contacted@inquiriesnaspradconsultancy.com.

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brilliant. And what we'll do, if you're watching this on YouTube, you'll show this in

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the show notes as well. So you're really welcome to contact, contact Anna in that

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way as well. And if you, you're very welcome to come back and keep telling

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us about your work as you, as you keep going. But thank you so much

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for your time. Thank you. Absolute pleasure to be here. So thanks very much