Organisation Culture at Netflix with Kenny Temowo - OrgDev Episode 7

The latest version of the OrgDev podcast is out now! 

We sat down with the brilliant Kenny Temowo from Netflix to talk all things Organisation Development.  

Kenny works in Leadership, Culture and Talent Innovation so it was fascinating to get an inside view on the culture and challenges of working in such a fast-growing, dynamic and iconic organisation.  

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live

We'd love to connect with you on Linked In:
linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
https://www.linkedin.com/in/garinrouch

Transcript

WEBVTT

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Hi, and welcome to the Dev podcast. So, organization development

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is the discipline that has the power to transform organisations,

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shape cultures and empower individuals. Yet it's often

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sort of shrouded in mystery. So in these series of podcasts that we're running

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called the Dev podcast, we're pulling back the curtain of organization development

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to reveal what it is. And the best way we can do it is by

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inviting a guest practitioner who is out in the field, who's driving real

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and significant change and innovation in really interesting organizations,

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and inviting them to share what they're doing and how they're doing in this organization.

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So in this episode, we're really delighted to invite the brilliant Kenny Tomuo.

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And he is leadership and culture and talent and

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innovation for uk anemia at Netflix. Now, you've definitely

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probably heard of Netflix, but sometimes we might forget about the sort of the scale

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and the size of Netflix. So just give you a little bit of a refresh.

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So, you know, Netflix since 2013 has gone from 34 million

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subscribers to, is it quarter of a billion now,

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Kenny, well done. Yeah, good. I've done my homework and

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I actually looked this up as a stat and I couldn't actually believe this was

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true. So in 2022, it spent $16.7

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billion on content. I mean, I can fact

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check that off the top of my head, but no doubt I trust your

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research. And it's, you know, we do invest a ton of money on

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the content, for sure. So, yeah, we're talking about, yeah, quite a

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lot of growth money. Brilliant. So it just gives you a real sort

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of scale, because the story of Netflix is one of growth.

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And so it's going to be a really fascinating, fascinating part as Kenny starts to

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introduce the work that he's doing and sharing with you just

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a little bit more about the culture of Netflix as well. So I'm joined by

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my colleague, Danny. Hello. Brilliant. So Danny joins us on our

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podcast and we'll be asking Kenny lots of questions and being very

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curious about lots of things as well.

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So, Danny, do you want to just kick us off with Kenny, if that's okay?

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Absolutely, yeah. Hi, Kenny. We're going to kick off with an easy one. So just

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tell us a bit about your role, kind of what does it you do at

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Netflix? What does it involve? Thanks, Danny. Yeah. So happy to be

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here, everybody. And thanks, Karen, for the introduction as well. So,

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yeah, Kenny Temwo, I basically involved in

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everything to do with kind of the talent space at Netflix

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in the UK and in EMEA as well, particularly Amsterdam,

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where it is our EMEA headquarters. So Emea,

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for people who don't know, stands for Europe, Middle east and Africa.

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And so, you know, if you think about the journey from when

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people are hired into an organization, everything from how do you

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help them acclimatize the culture, you know, how do you help them develop

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the sort of habits and the ways of working that will help them to be

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successful, to how you help leaders and teams

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work effectively together, how you then grow

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them and think about internal mobility to,

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you know, in some cases, helping leaders have exit

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conversations. So it's that entire, what we call, you know, the employee life cycle.

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And then on top of that, you know, thinking about what

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we. What you might, I guess, traditional OD work where I will often work

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with HR business partners and, you know, be looking

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at sort of targeted interventions there and then on.

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And then lastly, we're a region, right? But the global hq is in LA.

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So then the other piece is, you know, how do you help that interface

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between what's happening in the region and what's happening

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globally? So, in short, that's a bit of a flavor of what my role

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entails. Sounds really interesting. Lots to get your teeth into there.

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So you talked about acclimatizing people to the culture of Netflix. What's the

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biggest challenge, I guess, people face when they join your

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organization? You know, if you imagine. And Garen was

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talking about our, you know, the context for us as a business,

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and if you imagine people coming from somewhere like the BBC, for example, you know,

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national treasure institution, but very different culturally

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to Netflix or coming from any other,

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you know, whether it be Disney, so any other tv media company or others

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where it's quite hierarchical. I think the first, biggest shift is,

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yes, hierarchy exists at Netflix. You know, in any sort of social

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space, there's an element of a hierarchy, but just

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much less than other companies. There's much more freedom. You're not sort

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of. You're not handheld at Netflix. So, you know, we're quite famous for

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giving people unlimited leave and people not having to track their leave anywhere.

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So as something as tactical as that, you can see sort

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of someone who comes to Netflix and sort of says, well, gosh, how do

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I? There's all manner of questions that comes up for them. So there's the cultural

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piece in terms of sort of the process, the lack of process.

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We try to have minimal processes is what I'd say.

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The other piece is acclimatizing to our feedback culture.

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So one of the things that's, you know,

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again, I think Netflix has been famous for in the culture memo that we published

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some years ago is this piece around candor being honest.

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And I always try to turn people's attention to the why of that.

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And part of that is because there's a lot of entrepreneurial sort of startup

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energy in, if you like, at Netflix, and because

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we often pivot and we change and make decisions quite

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quickly. So, adverts, we didn't used to have ads on this service, and now

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we've got ads. I mean, I should check. Do you both have a Netflix account?

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I don't know. Absolutely. That was the proviso for you coming along.

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Netflix subscriptions? We do. We do.

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So you don't have to share. I don't know which sort of tier you have,

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whether you have the ads or not, but ads were something that we

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didn't have on the service, and we needed to pivot, you know?

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And so what comes with that is the ability. What enables that

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is the ability to give very quick feedback to each other, because if you're going

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in the wrong direction, you need feedback to let you know that, so you can

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move in a different direction. So these cultural tenants and principles

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are all in service, I guess, of a sort of a broader organizational vision.

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So, yeah, it's a good question, Dani. I'd say those are some of the immediate

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things. It's the sort of the reduced sense of hierarchy and the sort

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of great effect, transparency and the sort of

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the challenge invitation to give feedback. Now, there's a tension there

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because we're scaling and growing as a company, and some of those things

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are needing to change. So, you know, maybe we might come and come on to

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that a bit later. Yeah. And you mentioned anyone with

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an interest in organization culture will have seen the slide deck. So there's a slide

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deck, and we'll put the reference in the show notes for this, which is the

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freedom responsibility slide deck, which is an astonishing

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slide deck that was put together a number of years ago by one of the

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founding HR people. And is it Reed Hastings,

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is that right? Who set the organization up?

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And it's an astonishing base because it's open source. Anyone can read

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it, and it really lays out the aspiration,

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the values of the organization, so that when people join,

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they understand what they're getting themselves into. Like, they're kind of. They're exposed

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to it already and the pace. Is that a very deliberate thing

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to increase the chances that you do get the right candidates join?

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That's a really good question. I think I remember when I read Reed Hastings

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book, and my colleagues who might listen to this might need to correct me

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on this, but I'm pretty sure the

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original tension wasn't. Wasn't. That wasn't necessarily to,

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I think, influence potential employees.

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But if I remember correctly, that was a sort of unintended consequence

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that actually, it meant that you,

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I guess, you know, you attract, you know, like, attracts like, I guess, you know,

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and you sort of attracted people who wanted to work at that sort of,

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sort of culture. So, yeah, there was quite a number

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of benefits to sort of publicizing the culture in that way.

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You know, of course, what that means internally, from an old EV perspective as

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well, is, you know, what, what does it mean to be an organization

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that has such strong values and such a strong culture,

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but is moving in a slightly different direction? And there's sort of a tension

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that exists between folk who have been here for a long time and who

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remember the quote unquote heydays of, you know,

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the early two thousands or whatever, or the, you know, two thousand ten

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s. And now we're sort of operating slightly differently.

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So that that's a really interesting, interesting one where the culture has been

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codified in that way. And, you know, if you think of a Venn diagram

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and between. We all love a good Venn diagram, don't we?

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Between sort of. Yeah. Right. The aspiration of the

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culture and the sort of lived experience, I think it's not a one to one

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mapping. It's not a complete. It's sort of overlapping.

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And that. That brings about some interesting tensions, for sure. Yeah.

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Most things in life can be fixed with a Venn diagram. I think that's a

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really nice thing. It's like, it is an aspiration. It's something that we're working towards

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as well, and it's like having an honest conversation about where we are as

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well. Yeah, absolutely. So how did you get into

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Netflix, then, Kenny? What was your journey to kind of working there?

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What was my journey? So I guess maybe if

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I work backwards. So before Netflix, I was at a

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games sort of metaverse company called improbable. And this was a

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startup or a scale up at the time. They'd long gone from sort of

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your 50 people in a cupboard, a small room with

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a cupboard in London, into thousand person global organization.

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And so whilst not as big as Netflix, it was doing.

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They were doing some very cool, almost magical things with engineers.

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And in the sort of gaming and tech world, they had the defense business.

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And so there's a lot of complexities there in terms of thinking about the organization,

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because we had. So we had the games and tech business, we had the

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defense business, we had a business in China,

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we had teams in Canada and America. And you

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can probably already think politically, there's just a lot of nuances there. So that was

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very interesting. And before that I was at a consulting firm,

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so doing lots of work with the likes of Rolls Royce,

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BBC, Johnson and Johnson, Ministry of

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Justice, of government work. I mean, I won't go through,

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I won't bore you my entire career history, I guess. But I guess, in short,

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my trajectory into Netflix was quite,

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I think, an untraditional one. I started out in the creative arts as

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a lecturer at 6th form college in London, did some coaching,

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trained to coach, and then took different opportunities.

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And then somehow Netflix came knocking. So I wish there

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was a recipe, but yeah, that's a

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bit of my journey. Well, it's interesting because we've done lots of

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research interviews with different organization development practitioners

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and there's no one pathway. And a lot of the time, the one

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sort of constant theme in is that people kind of find OD.

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It's either sort of like they stumble across it or they're frustrated

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about how change happens and they sort of find it.

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And then it's often quite transformative in people's careers

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as well. So how did you sort of discover OD? Yeah,

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I think it was probably through the consulting work. That was where,

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I mean, after. After I left public education in

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the 6th form, college work I was doing, I did some training in

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sort of mapping organizational.

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It was called organizational motivation. And it was thinking about how

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do you understand the motivation of teams and using psychometrics with that

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to sort of do some of that psychological work and organizational

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thinking. And that just inspired me, I guess, along that,

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along those lines, and eventually landed in a consulting firm. And of course,

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when you're in a consulting firm, you're sort of flown into lots of different almost.

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I mean, probably not the best analogy, given what's happened in the world,

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but it felt like you were flown into these theaters of war where you had

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to sort of just work out the problem and be this kind of SWAT

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team very quickly help the client, you know what it's like.

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Right. And so that, I think that gave me a bit of a taste for

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OD work where you're really trying to map out the system and understand this

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layer of the land and then in that consulting firm,

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because people are your products, I guess, for want of a better word, when you

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were consulting, lots of internal development. So it was through

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a lot of that internal development that I guess I acquired quite a taste for

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Audi. And then when I joined Netflix, the function I joined was learning

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and organizational development. So there was already quite

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an interest in OD work at metrics. And what bits of your role

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do you enjoy most? What is it about OD that draws you in?

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I just love thinking about really big thorny problems,

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you know, at the organizational level. I love thinking about it.

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I love thinking about strategy. I love thinking

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about how different parts of the organisation impact each

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other. I love doing the team coaching work,

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working with leaders and through leaders.

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Yeah, I guess having a psychological background as well.

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I'm often thinking about just the dynamics of

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how different teams interact. And Danny, you and I were on a course

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a little while back and I was attracted to that program

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for that sort of very reasonable. So, yeah, I think,

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yeah, I'd probably say it's just thinking about hard thorny problems,

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being able to step back and observe and how

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they interact, and then obviously help develop and design

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solutions around it. I can't imagine there's any lack of big thorny

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problems in an organization as complex and as fast moving as

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an Netflix as well, I guess, is the challenge, trying to identify which

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big thorny problems to prioritize and work on and where you can add the most

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value. Yeah, exactly. And it was similar

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when I was in my last company where I did a lot of DNI work

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there as well, on top of the culture, staff and leadership work and OD

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work. I think there's this sort of

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piece around, when you think about an organizational system,

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where can you apply? Where can you apply the pressure in

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a way that will have an outsize kind of impact? Because, you know,

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HR teams often think, you know, l and D teams are thinking

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about lots and lots of programs and whatnot.

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And, and to your point, Garyn, I think

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I've started thinking just differently about the work I do and starting to think more

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around, you know,

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where. Where is the problem, to your point? And where can we sort of,

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if we do something here, how would that impact something over there?

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So I guess thinking in a really sort of systemic way as well. You're a

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true od practitioner. You never take things at face value, do you?

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It's always like, so what is their underpinning this as well?

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Yeah, no, exactly. We've talked a bit about what you enjoy. What are the most

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challenging aspects of your role working in OD?

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Yeah, what are the most challenging aspects?

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Oh, where do you start?

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I think one of, I think the context of

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my role in Netflix in the UK and EMEA is that we're

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a region, and as I said, the global hq is

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in LA, and so there's an immediate challenge there in

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terms of ultimately, all the budget sits there,

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really, if you want to be blunt about it,

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and that's the center of gravity in many ways.

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Although that said, on the consumer side, the business is thriving and growing

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faster in the other regions, like APAC and EMEA.

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So I think one of the challenges is just being in a

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global team, but having a regional,

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a local role. And so I'm in three teams, effectively. I have

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key stakeholders in London,

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sort of what we call a team one mindset. So Patrick Lencioni

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wrote a book called the Advantage and he talks about having a team one mindset.

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So I've got multiple team ones, so the UK and

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I've got my EMEA team and then the sort of global team

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and that. That spawns all manner of different weird

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things on slack, where you've just got multiple channels, you're trying to sort of

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kind of monitor. So that is definitely a challenge,

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just emotionally as well, because you feel connected and feel sort of

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allegiances and you feel that you need to manage relationships

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at different levels. So I would say that's one of the big kind of sort

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of operational challenges, for sure. There'll certainly be lots

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that will come to my mind, but I also want to give you a chance

16:17.622 --> 16:20.958
to ask the questions. Yeah, well, I guess it's interesting, isn't it?

16:20.966 --> 16:24.542
Because if the center of gravity, and there's lots of organizations which are asymmetrical,

16:24.558 --> 16:27.726
it's just there's an hq, isn't there, or whatever, but you're

16:27.750 --> 16:31.222
not even in a similar time zone, so you're not necessarily communicating a lot of

16:31.238 --> 16:34.518
it. Your work will be done sort of asynchronously, like,

16:34.606 --> 16:37.430
as an organization, what do you kind of do to, or what do you personally

16:37.462 --> 16:40.566
do to sort of overcome that? Yeah,

16:40.630 --> 16:43.590
it's. I can only say it is a challenge. Yeah,

16:43.622 --> 16:47.334
I mean, we do the practical things of switching

16:47.374 --> 16:50.486
the time zones when we have, where we place

16:50.550 --> 16:54.554
the calendar invites so that people in APAC can join,

16:54.894 --> 16:58.474
we'll record all the meetings so people can watch it. But I would say

16:59.054 --> 17:02.794
I just think it's. Operationally, it's a difficult one.

17:03.134 --> 17:06.844
And I was just actually having a feedback conversation with a colleague in the US

17:07.014 --> 17:10.648
and I was just saying, you know, I'm feeling the crunch of these

17:10.696 --> 17:14.400
different teams and we've just got to continue to

17:14.432 --> 17:17.704
work through it and try to communicate well, but Slack is a great tool for

17:17.744 --> 17:20.848
that, of course, but it does put a strain

17:20.896 --> 17:24.564
in that. Your question, garen? Sometimes I'll be up till quite late

17:25.664 --> 17:29.008
picking up when the Americans get up and then having

17:29.056 --> 17:32.264
conversations there. And sometimes they will, of course, have to get up really

17:32.344 --> 17:36.080
early, five, six in the morning to have calls. So I think it does

17:36.152 --> 17:39.712
certainly put a strain. I'd love to hear of any companies that

17:39.888 --> 17:43.520
do the sort of global communications and interactions really, really well,

17:43.552 --> 17:46.848
because I think it's just. I think you just do the best you can and

17:47.016 --> 17:50.352
keep moving. Yeah, I don't think we can really help with that. We were

17:50.368 --> 17:53.592
facilitating the session. Weren't we done? We had someone who was up at midnight in

17:53.648 --> 17:57.560
Asia. We were like, middle of the day, and the guys in America

17:57.592 --> 18:01.152
were like, it was at four or 05:00 a.m. wasn't it? It was a

18:01.168 --> 18:04.926
real challenge. It was the away day with everyone at different ends of the

18:04.950 --> 18:08.118
tightness spectrum, I think. Yeah, yeah,

18:08.246 --> 18:11.678
exactly. I'm dying for you to ask, what does a

18:11.686 --> 18:15.234
typical day look like? That's the one I want.

18:17.254 --> 18:20.766
What does a typical day look like all week? Because sometimes

18:20.790 --> 18:24.446
our days are so different. But I guess it's that kind of people understand I'm

18:24.470 --> 18:27.958
doing OD, but how do you construct your day? How do you sort

18:27.966 --> 18:30.766
of design your day? How do you organize your priorities?

18:30.830 --> 18:34.380
Like, what does it look like for you? Yeah, it's a good question.

18:34.452 --> 18:38.196
And the context as

18:38.220 --> 18:41.384
well is that some of my work is split between.

18:41.764 --> 18:45.464
There's more programmatic work nowadays than the oldie

18:46.804 --> 18:49.916
staff, at least in the way I conceive of

18:49.940 --> 18:53.024
OD and a lot of the targeted interventions,

18:53.964 --> 18:57.900
systemic interventions, team level interventions

18:57.932 --> 19:01.354
and things like that. Still a lot of programmatic work. So if I think about

19:01.474 --> 19:04.690
a week, I wish I could say it starts with,

19:04.722 --> 19:08.402
you know, watching the trailer or watching a video for our latest show that's coming

19:08.458 --> 19:11.974
out or whatever. But usually.

19:12.554 --> 19:15.474
So I work from home, probably a couple of days a week, and then our

19:15.594 --> 19:19.266
UK office is in Oxford Circus, and I love going into

19:19.290 --> 19:22.186
the office because there's such a vibe there, there's just such a buzz and such

19:22.210 --> 19:25.850
an energy. And I. When I'm in the office, I often try to do the

19:25.882 --> 19:28.330
things that I can't do when I'm working from home. So that's, you know,

19:28.362 --> 19:32.510
be with people, spend time with people. My line manager

19:32.542 --> 19:35.966
often says, Kenny, if you spend time with us in the HR world, then there's

19:35.990 --> 19:38.222
probably a bit of an issue you need to be with them in the business

19:38.278 --> 19:42.030
and just making sure you're understanding the challenges.

19:42.102 --> 19:46.158
That's a big thing that I try and do in my world is understand the

19:46.206 --> 19:49.230
day to day challenges. I couldn't stress that anymore.

19:49.422 --> 19:52.854
There's nothing worse than L and D or OD

19:52.894 --> 19:55.114
solutions that come out of an ivory tower.

19:56.564 --> 20:00.228
It rolls the impact because it's

20:00.276 --> 20:03.916
not targeting any sort of specific, concrete sort

20:03.940 --> 20:06.676
of issues and challenges. So I try in terms of my week,

20:06.780 --> 20:10.276
I try and spend time where I'm scheduling one to ones having

20:10.340 --> 20:12.904
conversations, just understanding what's going on.

20:13.684 --> 20:17.052
I'll often scour the slack channels. I'll go through all

20:17.068 --> 20:20.092
the different slack channels just to get context on what I make sure I'm not

20:20.108 --> 20:23.344
missing anything. Check videos or recordings of things.

20:23.684 --> 20:26.788
And there's the usual triaging and going through your emails and,

20:26.876 --> 20:30.132
and things like that. And then, you know, there'll be

20:30.148 --> 20:33.724
your regular stand ups with your local team, your EMEA team,

20:33.764 --> 20:36.956
and then global teams, and then,

20:37.020 --> 20:40.244
you know, the ongoing project work. So whether that

20:40.284 --> 20:43.476
is preparing for our onboarding, you know,

20:43.580 --> 20:46.316
capstone onboarding events that we have, they're sort of big,

20:46.380 --> 20:50.084
big showpiece events. So whether it's preparing

20:50.124 --> 20:53.576
for sort of your ongoing programs or some of our, we've got

20:53.600 --> 20:56.216
often pilot things that we're experimenting with.

20:56.400 --> 20:59.616
So we do things like peer coaching and training up our

20:59.640 --> 21:03.432
peer cultures. So there's things that I'm trying to scale. So I

21:03.448 --> 21:06.444
guess I think about it in my head in terms of,

21:07.144 --> 21:10.944
you know, what are the things that are in building phase where

21:10.984 --> 21:14.920
maybe you're building the foundation for something, what are the things that maybe

21:14.952 --> 21:18.760
just need to be systematized? So maybe it's more a case of we've

21:18.792 --> 21:22.296
piloted it and we're now trying to be more systematic about the

21:22.320 --> 21:26.856
sort of launching of it. What are the things which maybe

21:26.920 --> 21:30.484
need to be optimized or where there's some innovation that's needed

21:31.424 --> 21:35.164
and that's either the things that already exist or maybe there's something new.

21:35.904 --> 21:39.912
So I guess that's one way that I sort of try to think through

21:40.048 --> 21:44.472
the different pieces of work that I'm working on and then obviously in

21:44.488 --> 21:48.436
between all of that as well. Yeah. It's so important that social connection is

21:48.460 --> 21:52.868
so important in your role, isn't it? Because that's, it's a relational role,

21:52.916 --> 21:55.652
isn't it? And people have to have that level of trust to see you as

21:55.668 --> 21:58.996
a sort of a trusted advisor and a strategic partner as well.

21:59.060 --> 22:03.212
I really like that building foundation or systemizing or optimizing

22:03.348 --> 22:06.692
we should break our week down that way, shouldn't we? That's a really good way

22:06.708 --> 22:10.116
of breaking it down. Yeah. Yeah. So just

22:10.140 --> 22:13.252
thinking back to the relationships. So you talked about the importance of the relationships and

22:13.308 --> 22:16.642
understanding what's going on. Sounds like that's critical in your ability to

22:16.658 --> 22:19.978
be able to kind of support and kind of intervene and almost prevent

22:20.066 --> 22:23.290
things before they become big issues. Yeah.

22:23.322 --> 22:27.106
No, absolutely. So, you know, I'm thinking about a concrete example,

22:27.170 --> 22:30.962
you know, that I could. That I can share, you know,

22:30.978 --> 22:34.018
so. Okay. One example is, we know we have, we love a good off site

22:34.066 --> 22:37.778
at Netflix. So we call it off site usually. Usually it's in

22:37.786 --> 22:41.226
a hotel somewhere, but sometimes it's exactly on site. So now we've reverted to

22:41.250 --> 22:44.454
saying off site, on site. I'm just like, why don't you just put a meeting,

22:45.594 --> 22:49.322
isn't it? But we call it off sites

22:49.338 --> 22:52.694
for slang. And at these off sites,

22:53.394 --> 22:56.818
time for connection, you usually bring in the HR business partner

22:56.866 --> 23:00.618
or myself or both of us. And I might consult

23:00.666 --> 23:03.898
on the design of this offsite. But in order to consult on the design

23:03.946 --> 23:07.194
of this off site, for example, let's say I talked at the top of the

23:07.274 --> 23:10.418
conversation. We're often pivoting and changing. Let's say two teams have

23:10.426 --> 23:14.694
been brought together. Let's just say for argument's sake,

23:15.194 --> 23:18.674
our product facing team and consumer team, maybe they're in the one

23:18.714 --> 23:22.218
that hasn't happened. But let's say that altogether, the question

23:22.266 --> 23:25.458
is, okay, how do we, you know, how do we work with this group for

23:25.546 --> 23:28.134
success? How do we create the right kind of climate?

23:28.514 --> 23:31.682
You know, how do we help the leader thinking about the culture and the strategy

23:31.698 --> 23:35.418
of that team? So there's that sort of consulting with the HR business partner and

23:35.426 --> 23:38.706
the leader. But to do that, well, to your point, Daniel, I've got to know

23:38.730 --> 23:41.890
the context. I've got to understand what's their task? What's their day

23:41.922 --> 23:45.562
to day reality? And we had a UK

23:45.618 --> 23:49.250
offsite. I think it was sort of Q two of this year,

23:49.402 --> 23:53.298
and we all gathered together. And it's a great

23:53.346 --> 23:56.970
way of inspiring people in terms of what we call the slate. So Slate,

23:57.002 --> 24:00.882
the program in slate is basically the content that's coming in

24:00.898 --> 24:04.370
the sort of near future. So we look at the UK content slate, we get

24:04.402 --> 24:07.626
excited. They show all the trailers of the shows that are coming

24:07.730 --> 24:11.282
next year, but we have a sort of a talent HR segment in

24:11.298 --> 24:14.906
that. And one of the things that I did for that section

24:15.050 --> 24:18.170
is basically asked him a question and I said,

24:18.202 --> 24:21.546
look, what are your barriers to execution? And we

24:21.570 --> 24:25.066
use the word execution because it's

24:25.090 --> 24:28.330
a key thing we've been thinking about as a company as we've moved to ads

24:28.442 --> 24:31.974
and partnering with Microsoft around

24:32.434 --> 24:35.490
our ads work, a big piece is how do we make sure we execute well

24:35.522 --> 24:38.562
in this pivot? So I

24:38.578 --> 24:42.454
asked the UK business, hey, look, we work on different teams, different tables.

24:43.464 --> 24:47.112
What's the barrier to execution? And there were many different things that came up,

24:47.288 --> 24:50.856
but one, I mean, there were things like, for example, meetings, too many meetings,

24:51.000 --> 24:54.144
which is no surprises there, right? But one of the things

24:54.184 --> 24:57.504
that came up was around who's responsible

24:57.544 --> 25:00.792
for doing what. And it comes back to this. If you're

25:00.808 --> 25:03.920
in the UK, you may be doing a

25:03.952 --> 25:07.376
local UK role or you may be doing an emir role, you might be

25:07.400 --> 25:10.728
doing a global role, then you're interfacing into stakeholders

25:10.816 --> 25:14.376
in the US. And so there's questions around

25:14.560 --> 25:18.080
responsibility. Where does responsibility lie for certain things when you're in that

25:18.112 --> 25:21.520
matrix structure? And so

25:21.632 --> 25:25.232
again, you know, for me, for us to deliver any solutions to

25:25.248 --> 25:28.960
any unconscious, this is a long answer to your question, but for us to think

25:28.992 --> 25:32.256
about the right solutions to that, we've really

25:32.320 --> 25:35.936
got to understand the problem. I mean, it's classic

25:35.960 --> 25:39.654
right? To change anything, you really need to understand the problem. And so

25:39.694 --> 25:43.062
these offsites are ways of me spending time with people.

25:43.198 --> 25:46.686
So having lunch, having breakfast, even dinners, sort of

25:46.710 --> 25:50.230
really get into the nitty gritty of what the problem is. You mentioned

25:50.262 --> 25:53.670
like a matrix structure, and that really emphasizes the importance of

25:53.702 --> 25:57.494
relationships, doesn't it? Because it takes certain types of managers to flourish

25:57.534 --> 26:01.326
in that environment and also a certain skill set for

26:01.470 --> 26:04.830
people that provide support services and

26:04.862 --> 26:08.512
strategic advice to help them get the right relationships

26:08.528 --> 26:11.456
as well. Because you have to navigate the terrain, don't you? Yeah,

26:11.520 --> 26:14.944
exactly. And you need to build credibility, right. You know, and build trust.

26:14.984 --> 26:18.072
And you have to be seen as someone who, you know,

26:18.128 --> 26:21.608
if I'm going to work with our content leaders, for example, our content

26:21.656 --> 26:24.084
leaders are, you know, they're creatives, they,

26:25.264 --> 26:28.624
anything that feels too corporate, they sort of shy away from for the most part.

26:28.664 --> 26:32.016
You know, it's a massive generalization, but you can't come into

26:32.040 --> 26:35.408
a conversation with a content leader and not know what the titles

26:35.456 --> 26:39.046
are that they're working on. Not know. You're unscripted from your

26:39.070 --> 26:43.062
scripted, from your, to your sort of reality tv

26:43.118 --> 26:46.742
shows. And so you've got to be credible in order to

26:46.758 --> 26:49.966
be able to then, quote unquote, win a seat at the table and

26:49.990 --> 26:53.694
be able to influence in that space. Thank you.

26:53.774 --> 26:56.982
So if you look back at the work you've done at Netflix, I guess,

26:57.118 --> 26:59.954
what are you most proud of? What do you feel had the biggest impact?

27:00.574 --> 27:03.874
Oh, what's had the biggest impact?

27:04.464 --> 27:07.904
I'd like to say I'm pausing because I've got, you know, so many examples of.

27:07.944 --> 27:11.224
I mean, there are. There are a few at Netflix, but I've been there,

27:11.304 --> 27:15.392
you know, about 20 months now. So there's. It's still

27:15.528 --> 27:19.224
somewhat early days, but I think that I'd say starting off with,

27:19.344 --> 27:22.536
you know, before I joined, we didn't have the sort

27:22.560 --> 27:26.032
of rich for the. For the region, at least I want to say for

27:26.048 --> 27:29.964
the region in EMEA, we didn't have the rich qualitative

27:30.284 --> 27:33.544
data about the employee experience,

27:33.964 --> 27:37.844
and we've got more work to do. But I spent a good three months

27:38.004 --> 27:40.984
just seeking to understand the lay of the land.

27:41.644 --> 27:45.892
So, again, that semi structured interviews using all sorts of tools like

27:46.028 --> 27:50.764
empathy, Persona mapping, empathy mapping emotional

27:50.804 --> 27:54.172
journeys, just to really understand what

27:54.188 --> 27:57.754
are the pain points. And I think that that's one thing I'm really

27:57.834 --> 28:01.546
proud of, is because it means as we go into sort of

28:01.570 --> 28:05.890
this next year, it means you've just got more data points and,

28:05.962 --> 28:09.586
you know, where you can sort of direct the sort of solutions.

28:09.770 --> 28:14.194
And then one of the things we. We did

28:14.234 --> 28:18.122
was we did, we ran a one day program on navigating

28:18.218 --> 28:22.082
change and we partnered with punch junk.

28:22.178 --> 28:24.774
This is an immersive theatre organization.

28:25.314 --> 28:28.874
And so this is like in London

28:28.954 --> 28:32.394
in a sort of a city that resembles.

28:32.514 --> 28:36.906
It's made up of two cities in one. So there's a built city with.

28:37.090 --> 28:41.650
Representing Troy and Greece and the sort of ancient greek

28:41.682 --> 28:45.610
wars. Long story short, we sort of immersed our leaders in

28:45.762 --> 28:48.882
a sort of an unfamiliar, uncomfortable space. We did

28:48.898 --> 28:53.366
a number of things which included blindfolds and all sorts of things as

28:53.390 --> 28:57.150
a way of mirroring the kind of discomfort they

28:57.182 --> 29:00.554
feel when you join the company and you go through change

29:01.854 --> 29:05.006
and the impact of that, I mean, it was very visible,

29:05.110 --> 29:08.154
the stories that people still tell to this day,

29:08.574 --> 29:12.094
of that, I mean, it's quite remarkable. I mean, it's actually quite

29:12.134 --> 29:15.750
scary doing it because my boss and I facilitated it.

29:15.782 --> 29:19.618
And part of it, we did a simulation and

29:19.746 --> 29:23.810
let's just say it created, it made a lot of people uncomfortable.

29:23.962 --> 29:27.578
And so, you know, there's something about, whilst it was quite impactful,

29:27.706 --> 29:30.774
certainly emotionally, and certainly in terms of it was memorable,

29:31.354 --> 29:37.066
you're always sort of walking on the edge of impact

29:37.130 --> 29:40.458
or being exited from the company, if it goes completely wrong.

29:40.586 --> 29:44.338
Wow, that's incredible, isn't it? Because I think sometimes

29:44.466 --> 29:48.074
it shouldn't. You should have these really memorable learning experiences

29:48.114 --> 29:51.794
as well. I guess you've raised the bar now for future events that you won,

29:51.834 --> 29:55.554
haven't? Yeah, I mean, we've raised the bar,

29:55.594 --> 29:58.614
and it might be that the bar stays there if it doesn't.

30:00.514 --> 30:03.894
But, yeah, I think that, you know,

30:04.234 --> 30:07.698
we were piloting, we're experimenting, and that's one of the things that we, one of

30:07.706 --> 30:11.630
the ways that we can get stuff done, really, in this global

30:11.702 --> 30:15.510
context is by, you know, piloting it and not. Not presenting

30:15.542 --> 30:17.838
it as a fixed thing that is going to last forever. It's just that we

30:17.846 --> 30:20.766
want to test and learn, and so we're going to trial this with it with

30:20.790 --> 30:24.182
one function. We're going to try this with a small group here to sort

30:24.198 --> 30:26.994
of limit the sort of exposure, I guess, to risk.

30:27.814 --> 30:31.414
And so now I'm in the process of having the conversation with

30:31.494 --> 30:34.630
global counterparts to sort of, I've written a whole memo

30:34.662 --> 30:37.756
and created videos that summarized experience to say,

30:37.780 --> 30:40.556
hey, look, this is what we learned. Give them a bit of a taste of

30:40.580 --> 30:43.900
it, and then look at what might it look like

30:43.932 --> 30:47.316
to scale that, or at least to create the resources that someone

30:47.380 --> 30:51.612
could run with it and deploy it kind of locally as well.

30:51.748 --> 30:55.436
Great. The power of iteration, isn't it? And I think sometimes things that hold l

30:55.460 --> 30:58.284
and D back are the fact that they feel everything should be really a polished

30:58.324 --> 31:02.212
program that's rolled out, and then it's. The risk is even greater, isn't it?

31:02.228 --> 31:05.616
Whereas this way, it's test and learn almost, isn't it? Yeah. And it sounds

31:05.640 --> 31:09.528
like that test and learn fits really docs really well with Netflix, wider culture

31:09.576 --> 31:12.964
of kind of testing, experimenting. So you're aligned there.

31:13.304 --> 31:16.824
Exactly. And there's something about thinking about, you know, to what

31:16.864 --> 31:20.864
extent do the interventions you're thinking about. To your point, Danny, marry with

31:20.904 --> 31:23.764
the culture of the organization. You know,

31:25.024 --> 31:28.240
I remember when I was at a scale up, you know, we had created these

31:28.272 --> 31:31.480
sort of cheat sheets and, you know, to help

31:31.512 --> 31:34.810
productivity and performance. And the response I get, I remember getting from

31:34.842 --> 31:38.734
some people was, oh, Kenny, this feels too polished, this feels too corporate.

31:39.554 --> 31:42.854
And when you're in a startup scale up, it needs to feel quite scrappy.

31:43.394 --> 31:45.834
And so, I mean, I had that drummed into me when I was, when I

31:46.334 --> 31:50.194
was a consultant. And you know what it's like, you know, you justify

31:50.234 --> 31:53.450
your existence in some extent, to some degree, as a consultant, where you create these

31:53.522 --> 31:56.562
amazingly polished slides but that doesn't work everywhere.

31:56.578 --> 31:59.738
And it certainly didn't work when I was at the sort of

31:59.746 --> 32:03.726
game company. So, yeah, just really thinking about matching the

32:03.750 --> 32:06.794
intervention, right to the sort of culture as well. Brilliant.

32:07.094 --> 32:10.206
So in terms of lessons, if you look back at the kind of career and

32:10.230 --> 32:13.630
things you've been involved in your career, what's the biggest lesson you've

32:13.662 --> 32:16.398
learned, do you think? Wow,

32:16.566 --> 32:20.054
what's the biggest lesson I've learned? There are so

32:20.094 --> 32:23.718
many. Well, don't restrict yourself to one. Oh, no,

32:23.846 --> 32:24.874
go for a few.

32:27.774 --> 32:30.654
What's the biggest lesson I've learned?

32:31.314 --> 32:33.934
I know that I'm going to forget some of them.

32:35.594 --> 32:38.850
I'd start off with. I can

32:38.882 --> 32:42.654
share a few. Yeah. I think one of them is the

32:43.034 --> 32:45.374
importance of humility.

32:46.514 --> 32:49.654
And where does that come from? I think,

32:51.074 --> 32:54.146
you know, as either as ods

32:54.250 --> 32:57.570
talent practitioners, but just as, you know, as professionals,

32:57.602 --> 33:01.774
we come in with our own set of values, our own sort of fixed identity.

33:02.354 --> 33:05.906
And actually, whilst that's important to have a

33:05.930 --> 33:09.394
sense of self, you know, Carol Dweck

33:09.434 --> 33:12.454
talks about fixed mindsets, right, versus growth mindset.

33:12.794 --> 33:16.810
Actually, in some ways, for me, it's about fixed and unfixed.

33:16.882 --> 33:20.506
You know, growth is another thing entirely. But there's something about being unfixed,

33:20.610 --> 33:24.402
being malleable, being childlike, being open to feedback,

33:24.498 --> 33:28.196
being responsive to feedback and not taking yourself too

33:28.220 --> 33:30.704
seriously, being able to laugh at yourself.

33:32.044 --> 33:35.396
Because I think that, you know, you're always, then you're

33:35.420 --> 33:38.604
always learning, you're always evolving and then you're going into that sort of growth

33:38.724 --> 33:45.468
space. So I think one of the biggest lessons for me is how

33:45.556 --> 33:49.292
to be flexible, you know, how to be adaptive

33:49.468 --> 33:51.744
and be sort of. And to sort of,

33:54.354 --> 33:57.666
I guess, being open to and really receptive to sort of

33:57.690 --> 34:01.098
feedback and to evolving as a person. So I

34:01.106 --> 34:04.370
think there's a lot of lessons I've learned on a sort of how

34:04.402 --> 34:07.586
I show up as an employee and my own sort of sense

34:07.610 --> 34:11.642
of. Sense of growth. And then there are lessons in

34:11.658 --> 34:15.322
terms of navigating corporates. I think this is one

34:15.458 --> 34:18.335
which we could have a whole 24 hours,

34:18.489 --> 34:22.115
um, conversation around. Not that anybody would want to listen

34:22.139 --> 34:25.363
to it, but, um, you know, corporations are,

34:25.403 --> 34:29.259
as you both know well, right, they are inherently confusing,

34:29.371 --> 34:33.235
illogical at times, irrational, uh, hypocritical in many

34:33.259 --> 34:36.851
ways, particularly in a corporate I've been in. Um, and if

34:36.867 --> 34:39.723
you don't know how to navigate that, I think you would just. Your mental health

34:39.763 --> 34:43.691
will just sort of plummet. And. And so, uh, there's something about

34:43.787 --> 34:47.223
just knowing how to. How to play the corporate game, if I'm honest.

34:47.403 --> 34:51.443
You know, I think that sometimes that looks like,

34:52.903 --> 34:56.231
and not necessarily necessarily about being overly political as such,

34:56.287 --> 34:58.523
but I think it sort of looks like,

34:59.423 --> 35:03.047
you know, we talked earlier about allies building the right

35:03.095 --> 35:06.959
relationships, knowing when

35:07.031 --> 35:10.923
to give and take, knowing when to

35:11.623 --> 35:14.815
sort of how you might need to make a mark so that you can

35:14.839 --> 35:18.112
build credibility in certain cases.

35:18.168 --> 35:22.632
So I think there is just something about how do you just navigate organizations,

35:22.808 --> 35:26.504
you know, taking the time to understand what works at Netflix,

35:26.664 --> 35:29.960
won't work at BBC, for example, in terms of interventions and

35:29.992 --> 35:33.504
just taking time to sort of understand, well, what, what really works here.

35:33.544 --> 35:36.672
How does decisions, how do decisions get made here? Because it

35:36.688 --> 35:40.104
might, ostensibly, you might think, well, it's the, it's the stated

35:40.264 --> 35:43.664
culture and values, but actually it's often the unwritten rules and it's a sort of

35:43.704 --> 35:46.822
these things which you've got to pay attention to and be

35:46.838 --> 35:50.718
sort of wise about. Hmm, okay, we're saying this, but really

35:50.846 --> 35:54.318
what really drives the needle? And so it's really taking stock and diagnosing

35:54.446 --> 35:58.166
how things work so you can sort of navigate the whirlwind that

35:58.190 --> 36:00.874
is corporate life. I know.

36:01.374 --> 36:04.782
My God, there are wisdom in those words. And if anybody's thinking

36:04.798 --> 36:07.966
of getting into organization development, there's just so many things in there aren't.

36:07.990 --> 36:10.758
It's like, you know, context is king,

36:10.806 --> 36:14.270
isn't it? Your five step process that worked in one

36:14.302 --> 36:17.956
client won't work in another. And just understanding,

36:17.980 --> 36:21.540
like, to change the system, you have to engage the system, don't you? And therefore

36:21.572 --> 36:25.260
you engage system on its terms, enter its grammar and

36:25.332 --> 36:27.664
then work with it accordingly, don't you?

36:28.004 --> 36:31.900
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And language, you know, I remember

36:32.052 --> 36:35.620
being in a leadership team meeting, our country leadership

36:35.652 --> 36:39.224
team meeting, and I was talking about

36:39.564 --> 36:42.964
the importance of scale or the value of scale for the HR

36:43.004 --> 36:46.304
function. And I remember one person responding, sort of saying,

36:46.764 --> 36:50.212
you know, why is this? Why this obsession with scale? They had a bit

36:50.228 --> 36:53.140
of an adverse reaction to it. And I understood why because no one had ever

36:53.172 --> 36:56.620
sat down and explained to them or just used their own language.

36:56.652 --> 37:00.604
And so little things like, you know, dropping the jargon,

37:00.724 --> 37:04.780
dropping the Od and Hr jargon and sort of thinking, how do I adapt

37:04.972 --> 37:08.228
what I'm going to share to my client, to my end user? And it's all

37:08.236 --> 37:09.264
of that usual.

37:11.624 --> 37:15.496
So you spend your, your days developing and supporting individuals

37:15.520 --> 37:20.688
and teams to grow and learn. What about your own development and

37:20.816 --> 37:24.200
learning? What does that look like for you? Oh,

37:24.232 --> 37:27.672
really? Good question. Well, there was certainly the program that

37:27.688 --> 37:31.304
we were on together, which is a good one. So just.

37:31.464 --> 37:34.640
Can we name drop? Can we name drop Steve? Yeah. Can we name drop

37:34.672 --> 37:38.030
Steve? Of course we can. This is Steve Heerson,

37:38.062 --> 37:41.758
isn't it? Who's gonna. Does supervision, group supervision,

37:41.806 --> 37:44.670
doesn't he, for sort of practitioners? Yeah, yeah,

37:44.702 --> 37:47.694
exactly. Exactly. Sort of. We've been circling around the name,

37:47.734 --> 37:51.046
so all the things. Let's name it, as you like to say.

37:51.070 --> 37:54.910
No, d rather, let's name it a free plug for Steve. And Steve,

37:54.942 --> 37:58.310
if you're listening. Hello. Big up,

37:58.342 --> 38:01.822
Steve. Yeah, it's such a

38:01.838 --> 38:05.104
good question, Danny. Sort of learning. I mean,

38:05.224 --> 38:08.224
I read a lot. You know, you've got lots of books behind you there,

38:08.264 --> 38:12.568
and so, similar to you both, I spend a lot of time reading podcasts,

38:12.616 --> 38:15.884
audiobooks. I try to listen to something every single day.

38:16.464 --> 38:19.752
So there's lots of reading and feedback. I mean, I mentioned it

38:19.768 --> 38:23.504
earlier, but I would say working at Netflix, because of the

38:23.584 --> 38:27.056
feedback culture that exists. And to be really, really clear, we've got a lot of

38:27.080 --> 38:30.144
work to do. This isn't universal, that everybody gives feedback in the way we should.

38:30.184 --> 38:33.326
So I don't want anyone to think otherwise. There's lots of work for the company

38:33.390 --> 38:37.118
to be done there. But that said, there is such an aspiration around it.

38:37.286 --> 38:40.034
And so it's a, you know, there was a book, I think it was by

38:40.494 --> 38:44.526
Robert Lee. He maybe deliberately developmental organizations

38:44.550 --> 38:48.302
or something like that. And feedback is

38:48.318 --> 38:52.014
a way of being deliberately developmental because, you know, once you're getting the,

38:52.134 --> 38:55.674
you know, real time feedback, it's such an experience, you know.

38:56.294 --> 39:00.050
And I found that Netflix, so getting feedback

39:00.082 --> 39:03.786
into is great for growth. And I don't mean just at work. I mean,

39:03.890 --> 39:08.618
my wife and my kids are great for giving me feedback and

39:08.786 --> 39:12.814
constantly working on stuff. And so that's sort of super helpful.

39:13.154 --> 39:16.634
I external to Netflix, I do a fair bit of coaching,

39:16.674 --> 39:19.894
and I find that really helpful for my growth.

39:20.874 --> 39:24.498
And so I'm sort of into a lot of that sort of growth work.

39:24.586 --> 39:27.786
I think it was Carl Jung who said something like, the greatest gift you

39:27.810 --> 39:31.556
can give to. To your child is to do your own work or

39:31.580 --> 39:35.612
something like that, or to do your own inner growth work. And so I

39:35.628 --> 39:39.060
remember going on a sort of psychological retreat sometime earlier in the

39:39.092 --> 39:42.772
year, and this was for coaches, had a sort of

39:42.788 --> 39:46.828
psychospiritual dimension to it where they were looking at your life history

39:46.996 --> 39:50.564
and coaching you through some of the pain. So there's a bit of psychodynamics involved

39:50.604 --> 39:54.340
in it. And, you know, without wanting to sort of trigger your audience at

39:54.372 --> 39:58.354
all. So you know, do advisory noted

39:58.694 --> 40:01.830
if you find these things difficult, but I don't think

40:01.862 --> 40:05.262
I cried as much in my life, well probably since I was

40:05.278 --> 40:08.622
a kid as I had in this sort of retreat. And it was

40:08.638 --> 40:12.354
very simple. You were just invited to share your story,

40:13.094 --> 40:16.678
but it had to be a story that was very impactful and difficult and

40:16.806 --> 40:20.230
everyone shared. Of course there's something

40:20.302 --> 40:24.024
about being in that environment probably just unloosened

40:24.064 --> 40:27.824
everyone anyway and that was really, really powerful

40:27.864 --> 40:31.536
for me. So there's that. There's also therapy. I've been spending

40:31.560 --> 40:35.160
a fair bit of time in therapy from a developmental perspective that's been really helpful

40:35.192 --> 40:38.416
for my own growth. So probably you'll

40:38.440 --> 40:41.576
notice the pattern there is that very little of

40:41.600 --> 40:45.552
the last few number of years, I don't know how much has involved

40:45.608 --> 40:48.808
formal classroom kind of training

40:48.976 --> 40:52.120
and as. And that's not to knock it. I think there's certainly a place for

40:52.152 --> 40:56.512
it. I did some work with Roffey Parks some time ago and online

40:56.568 --> 41:00.472
training and things like that. But in fact going back to Steve,

41:00.528 --> 41:04.400
Steve, I remember he would often talk about from a coaching perspective,

41:04.432 --> 41:08.496
you've got some people who sort of prefer the ICF sort of accreditation routes

41:08.640 --> 41:12.432
and some people who prefer the supervision route. And I found that the supervision

41:12.488 --> 41:15.950
is sort of very practical. Hands on development has

41:15.982 --> 41:19.462
been pretty impactful for me. So again, apologies, that was

41:19.478 --> 41:23.070
a bit long window. We touched on something really important, which about organization

41:23.142 --> 41:26.342
development because, and it's an often used phrase is like sort of self as instrument

41:26.438 --> 41:30.150
and you know, when you're going into organizations, when you're going into systems and you're

41:30.182 --> 41:33.854
creating change, you get so many things projected onto

41:33.894 --> 41:38.502
you and there's all sorts of different sort of psychodynamic things happening.

41:38.638 --> 41:41.910
So it is really important to do that work, isn't it? We have to be

41:41.942 --> 41:45.806
aware of what's our stuff, what's the system stuff.

41:45.950 --> 41:48.910
How might this be triggering me? And we have to go there and I think

41:48.942 --> 41:52.782
sometimes we underestimate the work that has to be done to understand ourselves.

41:52.958 --> 41:56.878
And it's not easy, is it? Like you said, it sounds like

41:57.006 --> 42:00.446
quite a cathartic yet challenging course for you

42:00.470 --> 42:03.474
to do, but it makes you a better practitioner, doesn't it?

42:03.974 --> 42:07.878
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I love the way you put that, Garry. It's so

42:07.926 --> 42:11.172
much of the change. In fact, I can't remember who this was, but there was

42:11.188 --> 42:15.212
some research around, you know, let's say in the coaching space. I think

42:15.268 --> 42:18.892
I remember reading it in Gerard Egan's book on the skilled helper some

42:18.988 --> 42:22.624
time ago. And he talked about, he said,

42:23.244 --> 42:26.692
you may familiar, may remember the research, but he talked about when they

42:26.708 --> 42:30.756
looked at all the methods and models that sort of make

42:30.780 --> 42:35.788
a difference to the coaching space. Actually, the thing that was most

42:35.836 --> 42:39.776
impactful for, I guess, was the relationship between the

42:39.920 --> 42:43.964
consulting coach and the client and that relationship. And really

42:45.064 --> 42:49.096
what you bring into that relationship, Garen, is presence. Aren't you bringing your presence

42:49.280 --> 42:52.684
into that space? And so you're right, I think

42:52.984 --> 42:57.064
it's not going to be a one year or two year masters or

42:57.104 --> 43:00.344
reading a book, an Od or a couple of tools that's going to do it.

43:00.384 --> 43:03.816
There's an entire presence that and how you interact with the system

43:03.880 --> 43:07.584
and your clients. So anyway, yeah, yeah,

43:07.624 --> 43:10.864
no, I could definitely identify that. I always remember when, I think it was midway

43:10.904 --> 43:14.344
through one of those sort of transitional times and someone looked at me and went,

43:14.424 --> 43:16.244
you look really discombobulated.

43:19.104 --> 43:23.216
Because it's all the stuff, isn't it? But yeah, it's a lifetime's work

43:23.240 --> 43:25.688
as well, isn't it? It's not, you know, you don't get to the point where

43:25.736 --> 43:29.324
I'm done, I've sorted it all out, I've mastered this.

43:29.844 --> 43:32.924
I think every interaction you have and every new client you're working with or every

43:32.964 --> 43:36.612
new team brings up something different. And you learn from, you learn about yourself as

43:36.628 --> 43:40.060
much as you do about others coming to that kind of thinking about

43:40.092 --> 43:43.308
that. So if there's somebody who's thinking about a career in OD or they're in

43:43.316 --> 43:46.468
an HR role and they're thinking, I quite like the sound of OD, what advice

43:46.516 --> 43:49.956
would you have for them if they're looking to get into a more OD

43:50.140 --> 43:54.244
centric role? Yeah, good question.

43:54.364 --> 43:58.528
Well, as usual, I'd ask them why, to reflect on why

43:58.576 --> 44:02.504
that's something that they want to do and what's drawn

44:02.544 --> 44:05.904
them to this sort of space, I'll assume they've answered

44:05.984 --> 44:10.032
all of those sort of more elementary type first principles

44:10.088 --> 44:13.416
kinds of questions and

44:13.440 --> 44:16.704
then, I mean, definitely,

44:16.864 --> 44:20.084
definitely do the reading and, you know,

44:20.964 --> 44:24.308
but even more than that, I think there's something about that self

44:24.356 --> 44:26.104
work that we talked about earlier.

44:27.004 --> 44:30.144
So being willing to do that self work,

44:30.844 --> 44:33.984
whether that be coaching, supervision,

44:34.364 --> 44:37.740
there's a really, just as Gary was mentioning, really understanding yourself, I think

44:37.772 --> 44:41.292
that's. And it also has just amplification or it sort of benefits

44:41.348 --> 44:44.340
in terms of your family and your friends and, you know, other sort of aspects.

44:44.372 --> 44:47.584
So I'd say that, and then of course, you know,

44:48.214 --> 44:50.982
looking at some of the courses that are online, whether that, I mean, I don't

44:50.998 --> 44:54.998
want to name drop courses because they're, you know, all different courses exist.

44:55.046 --> 44:59.194
You know, nothing. We're partial here to one particular,

45:00.334 --> 45:03.078
but, you know. Yeah. Going. I don't know if you guys have a website,

45:03.126 --> 45:06.798
so maybe go along to Garen and Danny's site

45:06.846 --> 45:10.794
and wherever their LinkedIn pages, I'm sure there'll be lots of resources there.

45:11.734 --> 45:14.882
But yeah, I think that the education is important,

45:15.078 --> 45:18.254
but I think over and above all,

45:18.674 --> 45:22.354
develop your curiosity. I would just say I think that's

45:22.394 --> 45:24.374
probably something that's helped me a lot,

45:26.274 --> 45:29.770
you know, looking at things, trying to understand, what is

45:29.802 --> 45:33.626
this? Socrates used to ask that. It was a famous socratic question,

45:33.690 --> 45:37.450
you know, what is it? You know, and I think Socrates was eventually, I mean,

45:37.562 --> 45:41.490
actually, he was eventually killed, I think, for poisoned, actually, for being

45:41.522 --> 45:45.402
such a nuisance. So maybe not the greatest bit

45:45.418 --> 45:49.922
of advice, but I do think there's something about being

45:49.978 --> 45:53.722
really curious and to look underneath the surface of things

45:53.818 --> 45:56.946
and developing that wherever you are, because that's

45:56.970 --> 46:00.482
going to be really, really, really critical in that

46:00.498 --> 46:03.858
sort of space. Fantastic. Well, thank you so

46:03.906 --> 46:07.346
much for your time, Kelly. I've learned so much from it as well.

46:07.370 --> 46:11.266
You've kind of really given us a great insight into what you do, the challenges

46:11.290 --> 46:14.122
that you face, kind of what brought you to here as well. I guess some

46:14.138 --> 46:17.090
of the words I'm taking away are the importance of candor, humility,

46:17.122 --> 46:21.130
humility, iteration, flexibility and

46:21.162 --> 46:24.466
adaptability as well. And, you know, it's not just about

46:24.490 --> 46:27.850
a role, it's about what you bring as well. So a huge thank

46:27.882 --> 46:31.578
you for your time and thanks for shedding a light on a fascinating company

46:31.626 --> 46:35.266
that we all interact with, but we often wonder what goes on behind the

46:35.290 --> 46:38.962
scenes as well. So thank you so much. Pleasure. Pleasure. Thanks for having me.

46:38.978 --> 46:42.210
It's been really, really good to be here. And thanks, Danny, for all your

46:42.242 --> 46:42.734
questions as well.