Leading Change with Penny Young from the Phoenix Group - OrgDev Episode 5

How do you bring together the strategy, vision, structure and people within your organisation to create high performance? In this podcast, we explore the world of Organisation Effectiveness and Development. We've invited a hugely talented and experienced guest practitioner, Penny Young, to show how she leads change. Penny has been at the vanguard of change initiatives at some of our most famous organisations including Sky, Vodafone, Specsavers and most recently Phoenix Group. This is essential viewing for any leader or HR professional looking for a performance edge. 

The Org Dev podcast is all about Organizational Development, a practice that has the power to transform organisations, shape cultures, and empower individuals. Yet, it's often shrouded in mystery and misunderstood. But fear not, because on this podcast, we pull back the curtain to reveal the inner workings of Organisation Development. We demystify the concepts, unravel the strategies, and delve into the real-life experiences of professionals who are driving real and significant change and innovation within organizations.

Wish you had a handy recap of the episode? So did we.

That’s why each week in our Next Step to Better newsletter, we’re sharing From Pod to Practice – a 2-page visual summary of each episode designed to help you take the learning from the podcast and into your work.

You’ll get:
■ Key insights from the episode
■ A reflection prompt
■ A suggested action

Sign up now to get From Pod to Practice delivered to your inbox each week: https://distinction.live/keep-in-touch/

About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live

We'd love to connect with you on Linked In:
linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
https://www.linkedin.com/in/garinrouch

Transcript

WEBVTT

00:00.280 --> 00:03.686
Hi, and welcome to the Dev podcast. So each month we

00:03.710 --> 00:07.526
invite a guest practitioner who has really great

00:07.590 --> 00:11.454
experience of implementing meaningful and significant change

00:11.534 --> 00:15.278
in their organization. And we're absolutely delighted that

00:15.326 --> 00:19.350
Penny Young has basically accepted our invitation to

00:19.382 --> 00:21.694
be our guest this week. And we're going to do a bit of a deep

00:21.734 --> 00:25.718
dive into her brilliant experience. But Penny is organisation development

00:25.806 --> 00:28.990
and effectiveness specialist at the Phoenix Group. It's probably the

00:29.022 --> 00:33.422
largest organisation you haven't heard of, and there's lots of interesting organizations

00:33.558 --> 00:37.038
within the Phoenix group that will be really interesting to learn more about.

00:37.166 --> 00:40.590
And she's got an incredible background that includes really familiar

00:40.622 --> 00:44.558
organizations to you, which include things like Specsavers and Vodafone,

00:44.686 --> 00:48.550
and has really been leading sort of transformational change in their organizations

00:48.582 --> 00:52.366
and working with their target operating models and really setting them up

00:52.390 --> 00:55.502
for success. So with that incredible background, we've invited

00:55.558 --> 00:58.990
Penny in to answer some of our questions to shed a

00:59.022 --> 01:02.462
little bit of light. And these sessions are really designed to sort of shed a

01:02.478 --> 01:05.774
light on the mysterious world of organization development and undercover

01:05.814 --> 01:07.514
what actually goes on as well.

01:10.294 --> 01:13.382
So welcome. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you,

01:13.398 --> 01:16.926
Karen, good to meet you. Brilliant. So for those of you that

01:16.950 --> 01:20.334
Oswe that haven't met you, can you just tell us a little bit about your

01:20.374 --> 01:23.154
role and what does your role actually involve?

01:24.174 --> 01:27.638
So my current role at the Phoenix group is

01:27.686 --> 01:31.592
to lead development effectiveness approach

01:31.688 --> 01:35.192
methodology. I was brought in to

01:35.328 --> 01:39.288
build a process, really an.org talent review process

01:39.416 --> 01:42.736
that the CAV had been trying to implement for probably

01:42.800 --> 01:45.760
about 18 months before I joined.

01:45.912 --> 01:49.288
And I joined in March, and we've just

01:49.336 --> 01:53.256
run our second review meeting. So I've been brought in

01:53.280 --> 01:56.760
to look at how we connect talent with organization effectiveness

01:56.912 --> 02:00.904
and to start the conversation, particularly with ex co members and leadership

02:00.944 --> 02:04.632
teams, about how is there organization shaped up and have we got the

02:04.648 --> 02:08.096
right talent in the right place to do deliver our strategy and do the work

02:08.120 --> 02:12.392
we need to do? I've also been building toolkits

02:12.448 --> 02:16.344
and capabilities, so working with the HR team about how we develop

02:16.504 --> 02:19.644
their capability to do this really well.

02:20.344 --> 02:23.672
And I've also been looking at how we work with

02:23.688 --> 02:27.360
the XCO, not just in doing your talent review process, but starting

02:27.392 --> 02:30.560
to get their thinking around organisation as a whole

02:30.592 --> 02:34.330
and embed their new operating model. So I work within

02:34.442 --> 02:37.258
a small CVE, there's three of us,

02:37.426 --> 02:40.922
and I'm kind of the glue between the two

02:41.018 --> 02:44.842
leads who drive the change and lead

02:44.898 --> 02:48.226
those conversations. And I'm in there thinking about how

02:48.250 --> 02:51.698
do we hang it together, what tools do we need, what's the next thing coming

02:51.746 --> 02:55.106
on the journey? So, yeah, I'm really loving my

02:55.130 --> 02:58.250
time at Phoenix. It's a really interesting organisation to work

02:58.282 --> 03:01.438
within. I've not been in financial services before,

03:01.626 --> 03:05.914
so that's my first foray into financial services and I think

03:07.694 --> 03:11.110
it is quite different to the other industries I've been in.

03:11.262 --> 03:14.878
But it's quite a purpose driven organization,

03:14.966 --> 03:18.182
in fact, very purpose driven and has quite

03:18.238 --> 03:21.670
a, I guess, not aggressive agenda,

03:21.702 --> 03:25.914
but a really ambitious agenda to try and enable

03:26.614 --> 03:29.748
people to have better life opportunities.

03:29.836 --> 03:33.772
So that purpose driven sense really sort of

03:33.788 --> 03:37.740
aligns with my values, too. So I feel really

03:37.772 --> 03:41.724
fortunate to have landed in this organization and do what I love and

03:41.764 --> 03:44.564
just to sort of help you understand. So, size and scale, like,

03:44.724 --> 03:47.884
what makes up Phoenix group. So it's

03:47.924 --> 03:51.704
about 10,000 employees,

03:52.284 --> 03:55.984
if you also include unmanaged, sort of managed service

03:56.444 --> 04:00.380
providers. So our customer service element is sort of a hybrid

04:00.412 --> 04:03.780
of in source and outsource. We've got big brands

04:03.812 --> 04:06.984
like Standard Life, Sunlife, Sun Life of Canada,

04:07.364 --> 04:10.860
reassure. So Phoenix own those businesses

04:10.892 --> 04:14.984
and at its heart, it's an asset management and pensions and savings organization.

04:15.484 --> 04:19.116
So, yeah, we've got about 10,000 people across the whole of the

04:19.140 --> 04:22.784
UK. We've also got a european arm, we've got some

04:23.294 --> 04:26.470
employees in Republic of Ireland and in

04:26.502 --> 04:30.878
Germany and Austria, and we have a small team

04:30.926 --> 04:34.182
in Bermuda as well. Great. Hopefully you get a chance to go out there

04:34.198 --> 04:37.614
and meet them at some point. Yes, we're pushing into the international field,

04:37.694 --> 04:41.150
put it that way. Brilliant. And what's really useful

04:41.182 --> 04:44.734
for. Because you're talking about organization development, organization effectiveness,

04:44.814 --> 04:48.606
you're talking about helping shape the target operating model

04:48.630 --> 04:51.466
and bring it to life. I think it's really useful for people to sort of

04:51.490 --> 04:54.602
share their career to date. Like, how do you find yourself in this role?

04:54.658 --> 04:58.634
Working with a 10,000 person organization with a global footprint,

04:58.754 --> 05:02.122
sort of helping, steering it in this way. What has been your career today and

05:02.138 --> 05:03.974
how do you find yourself where you are now?

05:04.994 --> 05:08.858
Good question. So I started

05:08.986 --> 05:12.290
my life, I didn't want to do HR, actually,

05:12.362 --> 05:16.082
or development that wasn't on the trajectory. However, long ago,

05:16.138 --> 05:20.162
30 years ago, when I graduated, I was interested in psychology

05:20.258 --> 05:23.184
and development, more of adolescence,

05:23.524 --> 05:26.916
and I really

05:26.980 --> 05:30.532
didn't. So I started doing teacher training and didn't enjoy it.

05:30.628 --> 05:33.684
I just thought, I don't. This isn't for me, because at that point

05:33.724 --> 05:36.876
in time, you needed to do teacher training to do educational psychology,

05:36.940 --> 05:40.884
which was where I was heading. So in that development space,

05:40.964 --> 05:45.140
but not in education and

05:45.172 --> 05:50.232
I basically landed in a job in Vodafone as

05:50.248 --> 05:53.840
a temp at a time in the HR team, in a

05:53.872 --> 05:57.816
time where Vodafone was quite small, we're talking mid

05:57.840 --> 06:01.576
nineties, and they didn't have any graduate

06:01.640 --> 06:04.792
schemes other than their engineering scheme.

06:04.928 --> 06:09.444
And I was really fortunate because I joined in the HR team. I just graduated

06:10.304 --> 06:13.536
and I helped develop basically the

06:13.560 --> 06:17.612
graduate recruitment and development scheme for marketing,

06:17.668 --> 06:21.036
HR finance, and then basically ended

06:21.060 --> 06:24.684
up in a role in HR and was a business partner,

06:24.724 --> 06:29.660
or old school business partner back in the day when it was personnel for

06:29.692 --> 06:33.100
a good number of years and went on the journey with Vodafone as

06:33.132 --> 06:36.212
it was acquiring lots

06:36.228 --> 06:39.916
of organizations and integrating organisations and being

06:40.020 --> 06:43.712
within the kind of business partner space at the front end of all

06:43.728 --> 06:47.136
of that integration. And as at

06:47.160 --> 06:51.072
the time, the Ulrich model was becoming the new thing on

06:51.088 --> 06:54.296
the block. And I was fortunate enough to

06:54.320 --> 06:58.480
be part of how we transformed the HR team into

06:58.672 --> 07:02.264
the CVE's and the business partnering team. And I then moved

07:02.304 --> 07:05.920
into more of one of the CVE's,

07:05.952 --> 07:09.424
which at the time was.org design and

07:09.504 --> 07:13.582
change, and kind of went on that journey

07:13.678 --> 07:18.838
through a process of. We were doing a big transformation

07:18.886 --> 07:22.830
program. So Redfone was, was moving into

07:22.982 --> 07:26.550
its new hq, so it was consolidating,

07:26.702 --> 07:30.034
integrating, moving location,

07:30.654 --> 07:34.166
trying to get one culture the brand had aligned

07:34.190 --> 07:36.954
into the brand that it is today that we know today.

07:37.254 --> 07:40.514
And really I was quite lucky to be part

07:40.554 --> 07:43.986
of that program. And I did a lot of work in behaviour change.

07:44.090 --> 07:47.574
I went into the leadership management development team for a short time,

07:48.474 --> 07:52.770
sort of seconded in and worked on a big cultural change programme,

07:52.802 --> 07:56.698
and in that, learned a lot about how to land those programs

07:56.746 --> 08:00.506
really well and set them up in a way that isn't just focused

08:00.530 --> 08:03.942
on one thing, that is behaviour or design,

08:04.098 --> 08:06.718
or all the irritants that you get in an organization, or how you knit it

08:06.726 --> 08:10.434
together, all your people practices. It was looking at it all.

08:10.894 --> 08:14.854
And that allowed me really to go, actually, I do want to do this

08:14.934 --> 08:19.166
and stay within design and change and

08:19.350 --> 08:22.918
within that c of e for probably eight

08:23.006 --> 08:26.806
years. In terms of the time at Vodafone,

08:26.830 --> 08:30.814
as Vodafone morphed, I was doing work with restructuring,

08:30.934 --> 08:34.254
then more culture builds, building toolkits around team

08:34.294 --> 08:37.790
effectiveness. So I got a lot of really good grounding in

08:37.822 --> 08:41.406
all things or development or design or effectiveness.

08:41.550 --> 08:44.782
And this is an unprecedented time, isn't it? This was,

08:44.838 --> 08:47.934
yeah, an entire new industry was being formed,

08:47.974 --> 08:51.102
wasn't it? And what was it actually like to be in

08:51.118 --> 08:54.582
an organization that was at the vanguard of this change, where it was

08:54.638 --> 08:58.726
growing, merging, entering new markets.

08:58.910 --> 09:02.430
It was exciting. I mean, we were so I was in the UK

09:02.502 --> 09:06.158
business, but obviously there was a global business buying up countries

09:06.286 --> 09:09.750
and in the UK business because that was, I guess, where its origin we were

09:09.782 --> 09:12.958
involved in, you know, Egypt, Kenya, you know,

09:13.046 --> 09:16.814
purchasing all of those and thinking about them being integrated.

09:16.934 --> 09:20.454
So really exciting. Lots of, I guess,

09:20.494 --> 09:23.758
entrepreneurial kind of spirit in terms of pioneer,

09:23.806 --> 09:27.110
go and do something, come back and transfer it and that kind of.

09:27.222 --> 09:30.734
Even though I didn't go to those countries, we were in the back office

09:30.814 --> 09:34.102
doing the support work, which was really exciting. And then from a

09:34.118 --> 09:38.288
UK perspective, as. As things became more online,

09:38.416 --> 09:42.404
let's call it that, I remember doing the online od piece of work

09:42.704 --> 09:47.496
and shifting and integrating from blackberries to good

09:47.520 --> 09:51.244
old blackberries back in the day, and the whole device management

09:51.704 --> 09:56.504
and acquiring more customer front end organizations

09:56.544 --> 10:00.080
and the retail part, because Vodafone at its heart was more network,

10:00.152 --> 10:03.386
and then we're starting to bring in the customer

10:03.530 --> 10:07.130
retail and integrating all of that. And that was also really exciting

10:07.202 --> 10:11.162
how you kind of shift

10:11.218 --> 10:14.254
your organisation to being more customer centric

10:15.194 --> 10:18.786
and the challenges that the board had.

10:18.890 --> 10:22.330
So the challenges that particularly UK

10:22.402 --> 10:26.494
board had, from shifting to being quite technical

10:26.954 --> 10:30.796
to customer retail focused and bringing

10:30.820 --> 10:34.900
all of those parts together, you would expect in an operating model with

10:34.932 --> 10:39.204
the overlay then, and the dynamic of a group organization that

10:39.244 --> 10:43.624
is starting to shift a lot of its functions into a group space.

10:43.964 --> 10:47.180
So, yeah, so lots of different dynamics playing out,

10:47.212 --> 10:50.628
lots of exciting times trying out new things.

10:50.756 --> 10:54.364
It felt like we were quite leading edge in some of our

10:54.404 --> 10:58.826
design thinking. We did quite a lot of work with Tesco's in learning and

10:58.970 --> 11:02.098
thinking about how they were doing effectiveness at

11:02.106 --> 11:05.386
the time. And also at that time, there wasn't an awful

11:05.450 --> 11:09.906
lot of kind of professional development

11:10.010 --> 11:13.682
to do OD. I remember thinking, let me

11:13.698 --> 11:17.058
look at the CIPD, and there wasn't anything then

11:17.106 --> 11:20.170
to teach you how to do it. So we were learning as we were going,

11:20.282 --> 11:23.550
and the team I was in,

11:23.742 --> 11:28.910
we worked in partnership with a really small OD

11:28.982 --> 11:32.502
consultant, really small OD consultancy, and they were really part of our team for

11:32.518 --> 11:36.034
a number of years where we were growing and learning together,

11:37.534 --> 11:40.646
which was really a really useful model, actually to have.

11:40.670 --> 11:44.230
When you're thinking about how you build capabilities, you move forward,

11:44.262 --> 11:48.102
and that's kind of stuck with me in

11:48.118 --> 11:52.046
all the jobs I've been in, you know, keeping that outside in view,

11:52.230 --> 11:55.694
particularly when you don't necessarily always have the

11:55.734 --> 11:58.462
courses to go on. I mean there's so many more now and there's, you know,

11:58.478 --> 12:01.566
there's masters and there's all, you know, there's all sorts you can do, but at

12:01.590 --> 12:05.414
that time there wasn't. So it was about learning as you were going and

12:05.454 --> 12:09.150
experiencing new things and just having a go. Really amazing.

12:09.222 --> 12:12.766
And then. So you left Vodafone and then where did you go after that?

12:12.830 --> 12:15.948
Yeah, so I left Vodafone about 15 years

12:15.956 --> 12:19.344
ago, 2009, so 14 years ago

12:20.244 --> 12:23.340
and I left to set up my own business. So I thought, you know,

12:23.412 --> 12:26.116
I have been an internal consultant for a long time.

12:26.300 --> 12:30.020
I need to explore and experience other organizations.

12:30.052 --> 12:33.828
So I set up my own business. I'm really

12:33.876 --> 12:37.612
fortunate through contacts I'd made, having been a big organization for

12:37.628 --> 12:41.274
a while, I did a lot of project work

12:41.404 --> 12:45.158
with other organizations in the sort of design

12:45.286 --> 12:47.714
or people change space.

12:48.814 --> 12:52.094
So from there I went to Opus Trust, which was really

12:52.134 --> 12:55.398
fascinating, working with an entrepreneurial organization that

12:55.446 --> 12:59.206
support charities. I worked for a while

12:59.270 --> 13:03.382
at Unipart Automotive and did some employee experience work and

13:03.398 --> 13:06.534
then a bit of restructuring. I moved to Virgin

13:06.574 --> 13:10.454
Media and headed up leadership development there. So I got real insight

13:10.494 --> 13:14.774
into lots of different organisations and then landed in Specsavers

13:15.154 --> 13:18.330
where I went for a six week piece of work,

13:18.402 --> 13:21.890
piece of kind of OD diagnostic piece of

13:21.922 --> 13:25.890
work on their technology,

13:26.002 --> 13:29.450
their IT team, and ended up

13:29.482 --> 13:34.294
staying for about nine years in the end, both as an external consultant,

13:34.794 --> 13:38.826
supporting them, setting up their approach to OD and effectiveness and supporting

13:38.850 --> 13:43.088
them on particular projects, and then became

13:43.176 --> 13:46.880
a permanent member of their team and worked with them on

13:46.912 --> 13:51.184
their target operating model, worked with them particularly

13:51.224 --> 13:54.552
in their regions. So they've got three. Well, they've actually

13:54.568 --> 13:58.168
got four regions now, but when I was there working with

13:58.216 --> 14:02.088
their northern european boards and australian boards

14:02.136 --> 14:05.648
on really looking at how they ready themselves

14:05.696 --> 14:09.142
for their next wave of strategy. And when

14:09.158 --> 14:12.662
I became permanent there, actually again it was a time of,

14:12.718 --> 14:15.870
there's quite a few members, new members on the board

14:16.022 --> 14:19.878
looking at the new brand promise, looking at new values, bringing in new

14:19.926 --> 14:23.766
technical leads. So there was a lot going on and a different

14:23.830 --> 14:27.742
approach to their eye health strategy. So again I

14:27.758 --> 14:31.638
was there supporting on how they implement that model and then

14:31.686 --> 14:34.874
left there just after Covid. So Covid hit

14:35.354 --> 14:38.850
and I was really looking for something different and I

14:39.002 --> 14:44.066
went to work at sky to head up their

14:44.090 --> 14:47.654
effectiveness and change team, which was a group role across

14:48.554 --> 14:50.854
Italy, Germany and the UK,

14:51.834 --> 14:56.138
and to support them implementing their new operating model that had been defined

14:56.186 --> 14:59.650
about two years previously and

14:59.762 --> 15:03.138
that was an interesting foray into

15:03.306 --> 15:07.134
probably, again, a media organization not being fully

15:07.214 --> 15:11.154
media orientated and in a,

15:13.454 --> 15:16.774
I guess an area where I was

15:16.934 --> 15:20.446
connected. So I had a bit much bigger team and a

15:20.470 --> 15:25.534
team that wasn't necessarily my own. So working across a matrix with

15:25.574 --> 15:29.526
very different approaches. So how do you get a similar, one way

15:29.590 --> 15:33.172
of doing odd across

15:33.348 --> 15:37.908
three regions or three territories and

15:37.916 --> 15:41.348
then left there. Well, yeah,

15:41.396 --> 15:45.164
this year and joined Phoenix. Fantastic. Do you want to ask one question

15:45.204 --> 15:48.948
as well? You may or may not have a defined answer for

15:48.956 --> 15:52.564
this, but just your description of it is really useful, is you use the word

15:52.604 --> 15:55.424
operating model and target operating model. Yeah.

15:56.404 --> 15:59.116
What is your description there? Because obviously one of the things we're always inviting people

15:59.140 --> 16:03.324
to do is to engage with it. And from your perspective, what is it?

16:03.624 --> 16:07.684
It's a really good question. And every organisation I've been in,

16:09.064 --> 16:12.712
you have to define it as in you need to connect with that organisation and

16:12.728 --> 16:16.552
go, what does it mean for this organisation? But in my

16:16.608 --> 16:19.984
head, I like to use the

16:20.024 --> 16:23.168
term, it is all of the levers that you pull to enable

16:23.256 --> 16:27.644
you to get from your strategy to

16:28.344 --> 16:32.224
delivery to your operation. And it's the method and

16:32.384 --> 16:36.304
model in which you can get to that end point. I would

16:36.344 --> 16:40.424
say you start with your strategy and your target operating model,

16:40.544 --> 16:44.416
so expect savers. When we ask this question of a number

16:44.440 --> 16:47.784
of leaders, what would define our target operating model?

16:47.824 --> 16:51.152
And we, in simple terms, did a bit of

16:51.168 --> 16:54.584
Simon Sinek actually, and said, actually, it's the why, it's the how

16:54.624 --> 16:57.996
and the what. And we looked at the things around the how,

16:58.060 --> 17:01.508
which was the purpose, the purpose of the organization,

17:01.596 --> 17:05.396
the vision of the organization and the strategy is the

17:05.420 --> 17:09.244
kind of the why, the how in terms of the

17:09.284 --> 17:13.772
delivery around your people, your organization, your culture,

17:13.908 --> 17:16.868
your capabilities and then the what becomes your technology,

17:16.956 --> 17:20.924
your processes, your data and your systems. And that was how we

17:20.964 --> 17:23.624
kind of modeled target operating model,

17:23.994 --> 17:27.810
how you translate that into design and development

17:28.002 --> 17:29.774
for me is the next step.

17:30.754 --> 17:34.306
So if you can imagine, you've got a

17:34.330 --> 17:37.938
blueprint and a roadmap of your three parts, the why,

17:38.066 --> 17:41.490
the how and the what. Obviously, your model sits in your

17:41.522 --> 17:44.858
how and your model, in the broadest sense,

17:44.906 --> 17:47.454
is around three things. In my head,

17:48.074 --> 17:51.958
your design so structures your roles,

17:52.086 --> 17:55.726
how you organize the work, your KPI's,

17:55.750 --> 17:59.794
your governance, then your capabilities around your leadership,

18:00.254 --> 18:04.174
your skills and your knowledge, and then your culture

18:04.254 --> 18:07.326
around the behaviours that you have in the organisation, the rituals,

18:07.350 --> 18:10.510
the ways of working, how you hang it all together, including your decision

18:10.582 --> 18:14.390
making. That probably comes in your cultural aspect. So in

18:14.422 --> 18:18.078
short, operating model is the whole,

18:18.166 --> 18:21.678
and then where I like to focus is then on the model

18:21.766 --> 18:24.854
and how you land that to connect it with people.

18:24.894 --> 18:28.342
Strategy. I'm very glad I asked. That's one of the best definitions

18:28.398 --> 18:31.742
I've heard yet. That's really good

18:31.758 --> 18:35.086
and really clear and we'll go into a little bit more details. Obviously these

18:35.230 --> 18:38.670
podcasts are about sort of just demystifying. What do we

18:38.702 --> 18:41.478
do day to day and what does the work look like?

18:41.646 --> 18:45.086
But do you find that different organizations have a different level of maturity

18:45.150 --> 18:48.862
about this? So some will have a clearly defined target operating model.

18:48.998 --> 18:52.406
Some will say, what is a target operating model when you begin?

18:52.470 --> 18:55.394
Like do organizations have different approaches to it?

18:56.374 --> 19:01.326
Yes. Yes they do. And so

19:01.350 --> 19:05.462
some organizations think they have a target operating model and they possibly don't.

19:05.518 --> 19:08.074
They might have a structure, okay.

19:08.894 --> 19:12.694
And a blueprint and how their systems

19:12.734 --> 19:16.316
architecture hangs together, which is fine,

19:16.380 --> 19:20.332
because if that works, that works. So I

19:20.348 --> 19:23.796
think that's. So the maturity thing for me is about the terminology and

19:23.820 --> 19:27.516
reference and knowledge that an organization or a leadership team

19:27.580 --> 19:31.636
might have of what operating model constitutes

19:31.700 --> 19:37.116
or design constitutes through

19:37.180 --> 19:40.508
to an organization that has,

19:40.676 --> 19:44.374
probably has one and has had it a while.

19:46.274 --> 19:49.570
I'm just trying to think of an example. Have I been in an

19:49.602 --> 19:53.074
organization that has a blueprinted model?

19:53.194 --> 19:57.298
I suppose guided very clearly. But again, in a lot of organisations there's

19:57.346 --> 20:01.202
diagrams that hold things together, but it's not then

20:01.258 --> 20:05.466
the how you operate. If you then connect behaviors

20:05.490 --> 20:09.424
and values, it doesn't always connect with the,

20:09.554 --> 20:13.652
the diagram or the mechanisms

20:13.668 --> 20:17.380
that they've got in place. For me, that's the thing that

20:17.412 --> 20:21.556
adds the value, is how you work with an organization to connect all

20:21.580 --> 20:25.316
of the elements that then

20:25.500 --> 20:29.436
constitute operating model and then what the organization's

20:29.460 --> 20:32.740
about. Does that make sense? And I don't think any organisation

20:32.772 --> 20:35.996
has got it right or any organization has it perfectly.

20:36.180 --> 20:39.612
But yeah, there's probably been a number of organizations I've been in where

20:39.628 --> 20:43.692
they might have two or three parts of that jigsaw puzzle and not necessarily connected

20:43.748 --> 20:46.948
at all. Brilliant. And just a follow up question to that,

20:46.996 --> 20:50.572
again, you may or may not have an example or whatever, but what does an

20:50.588 --> 20:54.820
organization that has it all connected, how does that perform compared

20:54.852 --> 20:58.924
to an organization that doesn't and maybe is a little bit more haphazard

20:58.964 --> 21:02.830
where there are different things, the structure, the KPI's, the why,

21:02.902 --> 21:06.126
the how, the what isn't quite connected. What is the point

21:06.150 --> 21:08.934
of difference there? So I think, well, the,

21:09.014 --> 21:12.634
obviously there's, I guess a commercial outcome,

21:13.734 --> 21:16.950
I would say that in organizations that I've

21:16.982 --> 21:20.950
been in, where their purpose is very clear and

21:21.022 --> 21:24.674
their model of how they work

21:25.854 --> 21:29.582
with their products to deliver the outcome to

21:29.598 --> 21:33.166
the customer is the one where obviously their performance

21:33.270 --> 21:36.838
is high and their ability to monitor

21:36.886 --> 21:41.510
the organization's health is greater, is better in

21:41.542 --> 21:44.782
organisations, I think, again, it depends on the maturity

21:44.878 --> 21:48.790
and where the organization's at is where they will focus

21:48.902 --> 21:51.714
most greatly on one of those levers.

21:52.734 --> 21:57.070
So in an organisation that is on significant

21:57.222 --> 22:00.234
downsizing, for example,

22:01.454 --> 22:05.262
you know, the performance might be, one outcome, might be

22:05.398 --> 22:08.590
a cheaper, better performance for shareholders, but your

22:08.622 --> 22:12.358
engagement for your employees is far less, I guess,

22:12.486 --> 22:15.954
again, bringing your role to life, if this is possible.

22:16.334 --> 22:19.950
What does a typical day or week look like for

22:19.982 --> 22:23.754
you? I'll probably have to define a week because a day

22:24.634 --> 22:27.794
could be, you know, harder to define.

22:27.954 --> 22:31.786
So I could be designing

22:31.810 --> 22:35.674
a workshop for an intervention that could be,

22:35.794 --> 22:39.234
you know, kick starting a piece of

22:39.274 --> 22:43.854
design in its holistic sense. So not just structure in its holistic sense.

22:45.154 --> 22:48.666
So it could be designing a workshop. I could be getting ready to

22:48.690 --> 22:51.970
go and do a stakeholder meeting with a board member

22:52.042 --> 22:56.146
to talk to them about how they want to take their organization forward.

22:56.330 --> 22:59.482
I could be having a meeting with an HR business partner and coaching them on

22:59.498 --> 23:03.138
a conversation that they're having with their leadership team

23:03.186 --> 23:06.574
about a change. I could be meeting

23:07.954 --> 23:11.898
an external supplier on that

23:11.906 --> 23:15.210
is.org view, for example, just to think about how we're using the

23:15.242 --> 23:18.962
tool more effectively. An.org view that's an

23:19.018 --> 23:22.066
organization development design software, isn't it?

23:22.090 --> 23:25.266
That takes a lot of the heavy lifting out, is that right? It does.

23:25.410 --> 23:29.374
It's an.org insight tool and design tool

23:29.674 --> 23:33.114
that can help with the front end of your process to

23:33.154 --> 23:36.858
really highlight where things are, you know, how your organization is

23:36.866 --> 23:39.274
shaped and sized all the way through to them,

23:39.314 --> 23:42.666
measuring and looking at when you've done a piece of OD,

23:42.770 --> 23:46.202
has it landed? So, yeah, like I said, I could

23:46.218 --> 23:49.418
be meeting them and working with them on are we going to implement an activity

23:49.466 --> 23:53.362
analysis in a particular area, thinking about our insight

23:53.418 --> 23:57.314
pack that we're going to put forward to the board to

23:57.394 --> 24:01.586
highlight what we're doing on our talent review process. I could be writing a

24:01.690 --> 24:05.562
board paper. I could be researching externally a

24:05.578 --> 24:09.090
piece of latest thinking, which I do quite enjoy. I could be reading a

24:09.122 --> 24:12.614
book. I'm reading emergent at the moment about

24:13.194 --> 24:16.434
systemic approach to m and a. So I could be doing things

24:16.474 --> 24:20.694
like that and thinking about how that then might translate into our thinking and strategy.

24:21.034 --> 24:24.606
For a board paper, for example, I could be

24:24.630 --> 24:28.302
running an Od workshop, capability build for our business

24:28.358 --> 24:31.926
partners. I could be writing a new tool and

24:31.950 --> 24:35.274
putting it into an online toolkit,

24:36.134 --> 24:39.994
all of, you know, any of those things. I could be doing a podcast

24:41.334 --> 24:45.038
on paying all that knowledge

24:45.086 --> 24:48.126
forward. Yeah. And you know, basically getting out

24:48.150 --> 24:51.640
a be going in and meeting various people in, in the business

24:51.752 --> 24:55.176
and. Or could just be doing a bit of

24:55.200 --> 24:58.816
research as well. So it's, it's so

24:58.880 --> 25:02.088
varied, it's what I love.

25:02.136 --> 25:05.856
I mean, you know, I love the way that you can go

25:05.880 --> 25:09.456
in and facilitate a workshop with, you know, small number one to one

25:09.520 --> 25:13.256
with encoter leader, through to doing some thinking and

25:13.320 --> 25:17.498
creating something that's then something there for you.

25:17.506 --> 25:20.414
So a toolkit or whatever. So,

25:21.114 --> 25:25.530
yeah. Wow, it sounds like variety is a key element here.

25:25.722 --> 25:29.282
What do you enjoy most about your role? Because there's lots

25:29.298 --> 25:31.454
of different activities there, some highly technical,

25:32.674 --> 25:36.418
some very highly facilitative, like what is it you enjoy most about it?

25:36.586 --> 25:39.374
I think it's creating conversation,

25:39.674 --> 25:43.934
creating connections, moving organisations forward,

25:44.594 --> 25:49.106
helping others make sense of something that is quite complex

25:49.170 --> 25:52.714
or tangled. You know, I think our

25:52.754 --> 25:56.818
job is about connecting the dots and decoupling

25:56.906 --> 26:00.378
things that shouldn't be necessarily together

26:00.506 --> 26:03.810
sometimes. So I enjoy getting in the heart

26:03.882 --> 26:07.804
and really getting into the, you know, the nub of what's

26:07.844 --> 26:11.436
really going on. And how can we help the organization solve its

26:11.460 --> 26:14.516
own problems? Not just solve the problems for them, but help them. So that's what

26:14.540 --> 26:18.824
I enjoy. And anything that is factual and insight driven,

26:19.164 --> 26:22.464
that sits around, that really helps.

26:23.844 --> 26:27.468
So I enjoy playing with the kind of science

26:27.556 --> 26:30.940
or the facts and the heart driven

26:31.052 --> 26:34.290
human side. That blend is what I love the

26:34.322 --> 26:38.120
most about what I do. And you said that one of

26:38.122 --> 26:42.546
the things you talked about was holistic organization design versus just vanilla

26:42.610 --> 26:45.714
organization design. Is that what you mean by holistic organization

26:45.794 --> 26:49.130
design? Where you're starting to engage with people and help them make sense of what's

26:49.162 --> 26:52.882
going on. What's the definition of that? It's probably got

26:52.938 --> 26:56.418
two prongs. So holistic for me is obviously

26:56.506 --> 27:00.234
looking at the organization as a whole. So it's as a system

27:00.694 --> 27:03.486
in all its facets. So culture, capability,

27:03.590 --> 27:07.798
they're my kind of three go to's. So you can't just design structure,

27:07.886 --> 27:11.622
you have to design how it's going to connect and

27:11.758 --> 27:14.702
the ways in which you're going to connect it and the skills you need or

27:14.718 --> 27:17.998
capability you need to connect. So that's

27:18.086 --> 27:21.550
what I mean by holistic. And then the second prong is

27:21.662 --> 27:25.338
for me around, sometimes you

27:25.346 --> 27:28.762
have to do it in a darkened room. But for me it's about engaging as

27:28.818 --> 27:32.454
many people in the process of doing design and development

27:33.474 --> 27:37.106
which enables it to land. Because in my experience,

27:37.250 --> 27:40.850
the only way you can get change to land is for human

27:40.922 --> 27:44.042
beings to be part of that change and to

27:44.058 --> 27:47.534
be involved in it and to bring their thinking to it.

27:49.074 --> 27:52.230
Whether that's from a leadership perspective, you know,

27:52.302 --> 27:56.234
getting leaders working together through to a bottom up

27:57.134 --> 28:00.806
inquiry, employees involved in their thinking and

28:00.830 --> 28:04.878
bringing it to the party. So that's the second part. When I talk about hedostic,

28:05.006 --> 28:08.462
wonderful. And you talk about sort

28:08.478 --> 28:12.366
of capabilities and you talk about sort of developing the capabilities that

28:12.390 --> 28:15.982
the organization needs, how do you go about doing that? Like how do you,

28:15.998 --> 28:19.006
because there's lots of different capabilities you can develop. What, what is a way of

28:19.030 --> 28:22.286
actually having an understanding of, okay, we need to develop these particular capabilities,

28:22.310 --> 28:25.514
capabilities to deliver this particular strategy.

28:27.294 --> 28:31.326
So for me, so organizational capabilities come from

28:31.470 --> 28:34.894
the strategy itself. So what are the things that we're focusing

28:34.934 --> 28:39.022
on to deliver? And therefore what are the differentiators

28:39.078 --> 28:42.598
that this particular organization needs to make that change?

28:42.646 --> 28:45.034
So it will be different in different organizations.

28:45.894 --> 28:50.134
And also, I guess there's also the fundamental capabilities that everyone's talking

28:50.174 --> 28:54.226
about, digital data, how we're moving

28:54.290 --> 28:59.298
forward into whatever generation we are from technology platform,

28:59.426 --> 29:03.682
platform based thinking. So what capabilities does the organization

29:03.818 --> 29:08.094
need and then how do you segment that and translate that into human capabilities?

29:08.754 --> 29:12.122
And interestingly, what's our role in AI and all of

29:12.138 --> 29:17.000
that? So there's all the kind of progressive

29:17.162 --> 29:20.460
thinking around capabilities and then there's what do we, what does

29:20.492 --> 29:24.624
each organization need to develop, develop or deliver their strategy?

29:25.604 --> 29:29.636
For example, in financial services, it will be quite different to a

29:29.660 --> 29:33.332
media organization, but there will be some common themes

29:33.428 --> 29:37.196
across the bottom. So that's what I mean, and capabilities in its

29:37.220 --> 29:41.100
broadest sense. So technical people,

29:41.252 --> 29:44.758
data, they all have to process, they all have to come together in

29:44.766 --> 29:48.430
terms of all capabilities, but our focal point is the human aspect.

29:48.582 --> 29:51.814
Excellent. Thank you. One of the elements you do is like organization design.

29:51.854 --> 29:55.582
We had Fiona Maclean on from the DWP and she described

29:55.638 --> 29:58.074
organization design is not for the faint of heart.

30:00.174 --> 30:03.494
I don't know if you agree with that or not, but what do you find

30:03.574 --> 30:06.854
most challenging about your very varied role

30:06.894 --> 30:09.954
that you have? Yeah, I think there's a perception,

30:09.994 --> 30:14.082
it's a bit of a dark art and I think it's

30:14.218 --> 30:17.834
people's perceptions of what it is that

30:17.874 --> 30:20.814
actually, because that's not true, really. It's,

30:21.674 --> 30:26.346
you know, people can see it as something that could be quite negative rather

30:26.410 --> 30:29.946
than the positive that it can bring, which is

30:29.970 --> 30:32.574
about growth and change and moving forward.

30:33.154 --> 30:36.558
I guess the biggest challenge that I've got is, I guess,

30:36.606 --> 30:40.262
people's view of it and how they've experienced it in the past and how

30:40.318 --> 30:43.710
you can shift mindset to show that it is,

30:43.862 --> 30:47.246
you know, quite a critical thing.

30:47.270 --> 30:50.486
It's a critical component part of any organization,

30:50.630 --> 30:54.286
you know, translating strategy into people strategy. I mean, you need

30:54.310 --> 30:58.074
it. You need that cog. I think some of the biggest challenges

30:59.494 --> 31:03.374
are how you bring people along the

31:03.414 --> 31:07.594
journey. So when you might start a piece of OD and

31:07.754 --> 31:10.866
a leader's got a view in their mind about what, what the

31:10.890 --> 31:12.134
outcome already is,

31:14.434 --> 31:17.754
which is usually the case, and how you kind of unknit it

31:17.914 --> 31:21.614
and sort of roll them back to what is it you

31:21.994 --> 31:25.014
actually, why are you doing this and what is it you're trying to achieve?

31:25.954 --> 31:29.834
And that's bringing them along the journey and shifting their

31:29.874 --> 31:33.932
mindset and then also, then bringing, you know, the organization, their team

31:34.108 --> 31:36.464
on the journey. I think that's the biggest challenge.

31:37.604 --> 31:40.492
Another quite controversial challenge, I would say,

31:40.548 --> 31:44.204
is also your HR team and where they're at in their thinking

31:44.244 --> 31:47.188
and maturity about where, how they're,

31:47.236 --> 31:50.628
how involved they are in organization design, you know, in a positive

31:50.676 --> 31:54.820
way. Some, sometimes h, you know, when I'm partnering

31:54.852 --> 31:57.724
with HR professionals, directors, whatever,

31:57.764 --> 32:00.946
they, they know exactly how the organisation and their

32:00.970 --> 32:03.906
leaders work. But sometimes that can be a barrier,

32:04.010 --> 32:07.282
but it can also be really positive as in a barrier in

32:07.298 --> 32:10.654
the sense of because they're so connected to the organization,

32:11.314 --> 32:14.922
they don't always see some of the things that

32:14.938 --> 32:18.466
are in front of them. And so that's another

32:18.530 --> 32:21.938
challenge as an OD practitioner to not just bring the leader on the journey,

32:21.986 --> 32:25.434
but your business partner and your HR colleagues as well. Well, so that can be

32:26.134 --> 32:29.542
a challenge, I guess. Other ones are knee jerk. So organizations

32:29.558 --> 32:33.422
that are knee jerk are not thinking about sustainable change so quick. We need

32:33.438 --> 32:36.886
to do this thing. And Covid, I know that we had to,

32:36.910 --> 32:39.606
we had to go back to basics a lot of the time and,

32:39.750 --> 32:43.822
but actually now we think about where we are with COVID

32:43.998 --> 32:46.470
did we need to be as knee jerk? So that, again, that's some of the

32:46.502 --> 32:50.092
challenges, you know, thinking in the moment versus the medium to longer

32:50.158 --> 32:53.704
term, I think can be a challenge which I guess makes you ideally

32:53.784 --> 32:56.824
placed to help people be more objective,

32:56.864 --> 33:00.208
isn't it? What are some of the things that you would use to help take

33:00.256 --> 33:03.992
someone on that journey? So maybe they don't see the world, the way

33:04.008 --> 33:07.352
that you do because you've got all this holistic view, like what would

33:07.368 --> 33:10.296
be some of the things that you could potentially do or others could do to

33:10.320 --> 33:13.576
help take their stakeholders on the journey? Yeah. So I

33:13.600 --> 33:19.044
think it's doing it with them as in helping

33:19.084 --> 33:22.460
them shape their thinking. And I know from experience,

33:22.572 --> 33:24.744
I know particularly at Specsavers,

33:26.804 --> 33:29.940
the leadership team wanted to do something in a certain

33:30.012 --> 33:33.340
way. They had an answer, so I went with it. Okay,

33:33.372 --> 33:37.524
we'll do it in that way. Using your toolkit and going with where

33:37.564 --> 33:41.300
they want to go first, which was structure, role design, you know,

33:41.332 --> 33:44.578
operation model or ways of working. But actually

33:44.626 --> 33:48.714
what they needed was to think about them as a leadership

33:48.794 --> 33:52.094
team and how aligned they were to where

33:52.434 --> 33:55.946
their strategy was first and to open them up to the change first.

33:56.010 --> 33:59.178
And I suggested that we did that. They didn't want to do it,

33:59.306 --> 34:03.082
so we did it as a secondary thing. And afterwards one

34:03.098 --> 34:05.682
of the directors said, I think we should have done that first because it would

34:05.698 --> 34:09.316
have unlocked. So the tip is go meet the

34:09.340 --> 34:12.860
organization where it's at, use your toolkit to take them on the

34:12.892 --> 34:16.092
journey, work alongside them, suggest as you go,

34:16.148 --> 34:19.716
new things. But actually, you know, the pay is

34:19.900 --> 34:23.780
do it along the journey. But actually they, they then realised that

34:23.812 --> 34:26.460
actually, if you'd done it first, it would have maybe had a different outcome,

34:26.532 --> 34:29.916
and that's the win. So next time they,

34:30.100 --> 34:33.624
we did the team opening up first.

34:34.143 --> 34:38.119
For those of you that are watching this, that penny is sharing insights

34:38.151 --> 34:41.815
that are really rich. So take these tips on

34:41.839 --> 34:44.815
board because you have to learn a lot of painful lessons to get to that

34:44.839 --> 34:47.711
point as well. I guess you also sort of describing the fact that the big

34:47.727 --> 34:51.671
thing about OD is not about your ego, is it's about them

34:51.847 --> 34:56.319
making the change. And just seeing them make

34:56.351 --> 34:59.919
that change is the payback to you in itself, isn't it? It's not about you

34:59.951 --> 35:03.708
being front and center of the change, is it? Totally, no, it's their change.

35:03.756 --> 35:07.612
And my philosophy is

35:07.748 --> 35:11.604
that you leave the organization, whether in a permanent

35:11.644 --> 35:15.700
role or an external consultant, being able to do it themselves next

35:15.732 --> 35:20.060
time or certain element that they can take to repeat and

35:20.092 --> 35:23.636
learn how to do it better. And a measure

35:23.660 --> 35:27.828
of success for me is hearing the playback of leaders

35:27.956 --> 35:31.580
who are then saying things that you might have said to them a few weeks

35:31.612 --> 35:35.140
or months or even years before, playing that back

35:35.172 --> 35:38.924
to them, and you go, so that did land then. And that's a great measure,

35:38.964 --> 35:42.504
I think, of what you've done as a human being

35:42.844 --> 35:46.988
intervening in their organization. So it wasn't about me,

35:47.036 --> 35:50.836
it was about what they needed to deliver. That's fascinating.

35:50.900 --> 35:53.404
That's fascinating. And that kind of sort of moves on to the next question,

35:53.444 --> 35:56.884
which is what kind of impacts have you seen from, from your efforts? There's certain

35:56.924 --> 36:00.144
elements of organization development which are really difficult to measure,

36:00.684 --> 36:04.864
like how can you attribute what you've done to

36:05.204 --> 36:09.204
the bottom line of the organization? Because there's just so many variables and

36:09.284 --> 36:12.384
often organization development is a facilitative role.

36:13.604 --> 36:17.492
But what kind of impacts have you seen from your efforts that you're really

36:17.548 --> 36:20.664
proud of or even outputs and outcomes that you've seen?

36:21.264 --> 36:24.680
So I think you, it's never,

36:24.872 --> 36:28.264
what you've done is the outcome for success. It's you have a part

36:28.304 --> 36:31.872
to play. You're, you're like on the, on the stage

36:31.928 --> 36:35.112
playing the part with the actors in, you know, whatever, you know,

36:35.128 --> 36:37.604
whatever project you're in.

36:37.944 --> 36:41.904
I guess examples are enabling a

36:41.944 --> 36:45.696
country to be able to actually trade. So this was at

36:45.720 --> 36:50.604
Speksay was one of the countries was struggling and

36:51.024 --> 36:54.792
their competitive landscape was a lot more digital and we weren't

36:54.928 --> 36:58.560
so really being able to support the region in

36:58.592 --> 37:02.576
looking at all of their regional aspects and putting

37:02.720 --> 37:06.016
an.org effectiveness approach on the table for them

37:06.040 --> 37:09.632
to have a conversation about how can we

37:09.768 --> 37:13.338
all focus something so give up something

37:13.496 --> 37:17.594
to invest in that country for them to become successful.

37:18.574 --> 37:22.494
So being part of that conversation, facilitating those conversations

37:22.654 --> 37:26.914
and then seeing an outcome where they're now hugely profitable,

37:27.334 --> 37:31.374
they are number two in terms of competitors

37:31.454 --> 37:34.814
in their country. So from being bottom to number

37:34.854 --> 37:38.582
two through to being in a great place to work, one of

37:38.598 --> 37:41.842
the greatest organisations to work for in the

37:41.858 --> 37:44.634
Netherlands. So from an engagement perspective.

37:44.674 --> 37:47.994
So, you know, it wasn't me that

37:48.034 --> 37:51.730
did that, but we had a part to play, me and the HR director in

37:51.762 --> 37:54.694
those conversations to get the business to that point.

37:55.554 --> 37:58.682
So there's some of the examples, I think that. Yeah, it's kind

37:58.698 --> 38:00.974
of, it sounds like it's the role of catalyst.

38:01.354 --> 38:05.374
Yeah, yeah. Positive disrupter, I like to call it.

38:06.274 --> 38:09.834
I like that. That's the phrase for the positive disruptor because

38:09.874 --> 38:12.928
there is bad disruption as well, isn't there? Yeah, yeah.

38:12.976 --> 38:16.040
Distraction disruption. Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you.

38:16.112 --> 38:19.504
And you have to account

38:19.584 --> 38:22.952
for your work, obviously, because you are potential cost to

38:22.968 --> 38:26.480
the business. Like how do you measure success in your role? Like how are

38:26.512 --> 38:29.952
you accountable to people more senior for you

38:29.968 --> 38:33.808
or whatever? Like how is that measured? So I'm measured on my objectives

38:33.856 --> 38:35.604
and delivering my objectives,

38:36.604 --> 38:41.624
which in this role have been about building

38:42.004 --> 38:45.348
toolkits, capability, take capability in its broadest sense.

38:45.396 --> 38:49.612
So the process to get talent review

38:49.748 --> 38:53.356
as a thing into the organization, new muscle building new muscle.

38:53.460 --> 38:57.260
So for me, the feedback from my,

38:57.372 --> 39:01.264
from the leaders that have been involved in that, feedback from

39:02.444 --> 39:06.384
the exco, the CEO and our HRD

39:06.764 --> 39:10.804
in how the conversations have matured.

39:10.884 --> 39:14.604
So where we've put orchard review

39:14.684 --> 39:17.716
into the system, how those conversations have matured

39:17.820 --> 39:21.476
and awareness has grown of what's happening

39:21.580 --> 39:25.244
in the organization, feedback from my HR, business partner,

39:25.284 --> 39:29.060
colleagues. And for me, a test is people coming to

39:29.092 --> 39:32.684
you and going, what do you think? Can you help with?

39:32.804 --> 39:36.988
Have you got an idea on. So for me, the feedback loop

39:37.076 --> 39:40.708
background where you're now, you're not pushing, people are pulling from

39:40.756 --> 39:44.196
you. For me, that I know that I'm doing a good job

39:44.300 --> 39:47.708
if it's, you know, people are now wanting to use

39:47.836 --> 39:51.904
well, the products that we're, that we're offering and can see the value is adding.

39:53.044 --> 39:56.416
So, yeah, brilliant. Thank you. And we all

39:56.440 --> 40:00.400
learn lessons along the way, some from our

40:00.432 --> 40:03.376
great experiences and some from like, you know, sometimes setbacks.

40:03.480 --> 40:06.524
What are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned along the way?

40:07.984 --> 40:11.856
Knowing when to stop. Knowing when

40:11.880 --> 40:16.084
to not push quite so hard.

40:16.864 --> 40:20.752
You know, when you're passionate about something and you

40:20.808 --> 40:23.922
know that this could be the right thing to do,

40:24.018 --> 40:27.826
but other people don't see it. Just knowing when not to keep going at

40:27.850 --> 40:30.774
it because it will, it won't land, will it? I mean, so that's a,

40:31.314 --> 40:35.130
that just comes with experiences of understanding the leadership

40:35.162 --> 40:38.314
team you're working with, understanding the organization and the culture,

40:38.434 --> 40:42.538
knowing what tools to work and what, you know. So I think that,

40:42.666 --> 40:45.338
and not getting too sucked in. So keeping,

40:45.466 --> 40:49.254
keeping your distance, so, you know, keeping connected

40:49.414 --> 40:52.766
but keeping outside because our role is to,

40:52.830 --> 40:56.582
you know, positive disruptor to challenge what people can

40:56.638 --> 41:00.798
see or can't see. And making that visible.

41:00.926 --> 41:04.414
So definite learning is to be

41:04.454 --> 41:07.834
able to still stay outside and not get too

41:08.214 --> 41:12.614
drawn in and, you know, making it kind of your mission.

41:12.774 --> 41:16.302
It's so easy to become entangled in a system. It's, isn't it? And that's

41:16.358 --> 41:19.438
always the internal challenge of OD as well.

41:19.526 --> 41:22.958
Yeah. And to keep still. I know that sounds so whilst

41:23.046 --> 41:26.870
everything's swirling, keeping still. So not

41:26.902 --> 41:30.454
getting. It's a bit like, you know, not getting sucked in, but, but not

41:30.494 --> 41:33.694
to be drawn or moved in different directions,

41:33.814 --> 41:37.078
but to, you know, stay in what,

41:37.126 --> 41:40.354
you know is the right thing to do for the organization

41:40.874 --> 41:45.534
and not get swayed. That's another learning. Wow, that's amazing.

41:45.874 --> 41:49.690
And a lot of people watch this. We did a session at

41:49.802 --> 41:53.154
London School of Economics the other day and we had like 85 would

41:53.194 --> 41:57.106
be organization development practitioners in there, all studying

41:57.130 --> 42:00.254
their postgraduate masters and that all keen to get in.

42:00.594 --> 42:04.138
And that's just one year. There's a real, it feels like OD's

42:04.266 --> 42:08.014
really becoming a profession of choice now.

42:08.524 --> 42:12.340
What advice would you give to someone just considering a career in

42:12.452 --> 42:15.868
organization design or development or effectiveness?

42:15.996 --> 42:19.356
What advice would I give them? Know what you're

42:19.380 --> 42:23.116
good at, so know what you're passionate about because the subject and

42:23.140 --> 42:27.100
topic is so broad. Know really

42:27.172 --> 42:30.652
what excites you within that broad spectrum and what

42:30.668 --> 42:34.938
you, and what strengths you bring and apply

42:35.026 --> 42:38.642
that. Again, not with caution, but really

42:38.698 --> 42:42.154
focus on that and apply that and think about how you can bring that to

42:42.194 --> 42:45.674
different organizations. I think it is helpful

42:45.714 --> 42:50.682
to go into an organization and understand change.

42:50.778 --> 42:54.226
I guess the question is, do you consult externally or

42:54.250 --> 42:57.930
do you go internally? And I think get a good mixture of

42:58.082 --> 43:01.724
the two and think about different types of industries

43:01.764 --> 43:05.876
that you can work within because it is the experiences of

43:05.940 --> 43:09.484
different places and projects that

43:09.524 --> 43:12.544
will build your toolkit and you and your experience.

43:13.004 --> 43:17.108
And you'll know if you prefer more technical design to facilitated

43:17.236 --> 43:20.756
sessions. You know, just, but learn your style and

43:20.780 --> 43:24.748
what works and apply that. That would be my advice.

43:24.796 --> 43:27.908
Thanks, Penny. And then we just had, because you and I had one conversation as

43:27.916 --> 43:31.140
we, as preparation for this as well. And you sort of said that it's about

43:31.172 --> 43:34.564
not necessarily getting too hung up on the terms, wasn't it? So in one organization,

43:34.644 --> 43:38.500
you actually had an.org development role, but the organization wasn't ready to call

43:38.532 --> 43:42.260
it organization development. So you, you changed the

43:42.292 --> 43:45.836
name to fit this, the context. So it's not necessarily about having that title,

43:45.980 --> 43:49.204
it's more about doing the work, isn't it? It is. It's about the

43:49.244 --> 43:52.852
stuff that you do and what's going

43:52.868 --> 43:55.828
to land. So the language that will land in the organization.

43:55.956 --> 43:58.912
So if you know what you bring as the,

43:58.968 --> 44:02.992
you know, the technical expert, simplify it or align

44:03.048 --> 44:06.088
it to what will work in the organization from a language

44:06.136 --> 44:08.764
perspective and what you do and what you deliver.

44:09.424 --> 44:12.896
So. So, yeah, wonderful. Well, thank you so much for your

44:12.920 --> 44:16.200
time, Peter. Really appreciate it. People watching this will have got

44:16.272 --> 44:19.304
so much value for me. You've really sort of only just

44:19.344 --> 44:23.080
sort of given us more of an understanding of what development and

44:23.112 --> 44:27.138
design is as well as, but also like, how do you navigate these complex

44:27.306 --> 44:31.202
organizations upon which we work and really getting into the nitty gritty as well.

44:31.218 --> 44:33.426
So I just want to say a huge thank you. And thanks for preparing for

44:33.450 --> 44:37.010
this session as well. I hope everyone's found this really, really useful.

44:37.162 --> 44:39.586
So thank you, Penny. I'm really appreciative. No, thank you,