Leading HR the OD Way with Bola Ogundeji - OrgDev Episode 14

Our latest video is an interview with the brilliant Bola Ogundeji.  Bola works as Director of People and OD for the London Legacy Development Corporation (LLDC).  LLDC is responsible for delivering the next phase of the organisation’s legacy of the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park and shares some fantastic insights on integrating an OD perspective into HR practice.

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Transcript

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Hi and welcome to the Dev podcast. We're absolutely delighted

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to welcome Bola Organeji. Today. She is director of people

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and organisation development at the London Legacy Development

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Corporation. So the London Legacy Development Corporation

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is the ultimate example of small teams doing great big

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things. So previous to that she was deputy chief people officer

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at the world famous Moorfields Eye Hospital in London.

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And she brings a wealth of different skills and experiences to

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her role, from workforce design to diversity inclusion

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to employee relations to change management and HR

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strategy, to name just a few. And she combines that in the roles that she

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does, but through an organization development lens. Bolla also

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has a master's in human resource management, she's a chartered fellow

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of the CIPD and she's also volunteers as a counselling

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psychotherapist. And we'll do a little bit of exploration about how that informs her work

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in the organizations as well. So these conversations are all about

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uncovering how people do organisation development in different contexts.

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And Mombola agreed to actually meet us today. We're absolutely

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delighted. So today we're going to be really looking forward to understanding more about your

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role.

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Welcome. It's really lovely to have you here. Bola, thank you for joining

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us. So just to kick off, can you just tell us a bit about your

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role? What does your role involve? Thank you Danny. And thank

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you Garen. It's good to be here. Thank you for inviting me. So I think

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Garen really covered it. So, joined LLDC in

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2023 July as the director of people

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and OD. And part of my brief really is to

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manage the people and OD function

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and that encompasses L and D, what you would normally expect from

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an HR department. We have Dei focus,

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we have some culture focus, we are also, we've got systems

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and contracts. We have a big job at the moment, which is

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to try and steer the organization through a period

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of change, because LLDC is going through a transition

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and that's just simply because planning powers are

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going back to the local boroughs. So part of my role is to help

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from a people perspective, to support our executive management

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teams, the CEO as well as my team. I have

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a vibrant team of HR professionals,

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all covering different aspects from talent acquisition to coaching

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to performance management and all, you know,

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the a to z of HR really.

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And part of that is also we're working as part of a

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system. So we are in really exciting times where we're

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working with a wider GLA family as

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part of, because we're mayoral Development Corporation, so we're working

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with our colleagues like TfL, Mopac and we're doing some really

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developmental work in that space. And I'm part of the senior team

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that is working together on various aspects

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of the HR provision. I think that.

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Yeah, I'm feeling tired just hearing all. Yes,

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it's really interesting. And for those who might not know, kind of the London

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Legacy Development Corporation, can you just explain a little bit about what the organisation is,

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does and how it came about? Right. So people might.

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When they hear LLDC, they might think, what's that? But it's. If you think of

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the Queen Elizabeth Olympic park and the Olympic and Paralympic

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legacy, LLDC is the organization behind that.

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So we are the brains, as Garyn

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said, a small organization doing really great things.

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And it's been responsible since 2012 to bring the

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legacy of the Olympic and Paralympic legacy to east London and doing

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various things around. Inclusive economy, you know,

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lots of great things. Making sure the park, you know, is an exciting and

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global destination for lots of people within the. Within the

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country and outside of the country. So that's what LLDC does.

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Crikey. So it's like a multi billion pound

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organization that's making social change,

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economic change, cultural change. East bank. Some people might have

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heard of East bank in east London. So we've now got BBC

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coming on site. We've got some education,

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education institution. UCL is now on our site.

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So we've got lots of settler wells. I'm selling it now

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if you want to come down. So there's an all cultural quarter

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and innovation district within the park here.

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East. They're doing really fascinating things

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to make the park legacy something, you know,

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to behold all over the world, which is. I guess the

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word I'm just thinking is just complexity. There's so many different,

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very succinct, different things doing.

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And obviously you've got, like, the velodrome and all those things as well,

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haven't you? Absolutely, yes, we have that. And we've got

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the stadium. We've got lots of things. We've got the West Ham Stadium is

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on the park. Lots of. We've got the. What's it called?

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The aquatic centre for those who love swimming. That's on

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the park as well. And lots of new homes on the park.

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So we assume you have about 30,000 staff doing all of this.

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Not really. Very small team

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with very massive influence all over the place.

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We're not that big at all, I think. But if you're

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not considering all of the links we have with other organizations,

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LLDC is about 200 employees in

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total. Okay, so small organization with big agenda,

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as Garen said. Yeah. So your role is, you know, your job

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titles combined with people and organisation development, what does that look like in

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practice? In practice, it's making sure that we are

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compliant with paying people, that we're compliant

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with hiring people. All the different things you would expect in your

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transactional services, that we are

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making the place safe for people to work, health and safety

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wise. From an organizational people perspective,

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that we are inducting people into the organization correctly,

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but that when they join us, it's more like the employee life

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cycle, making sure that from when people are hired to when they leave us,

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that they find it a great place to work, that we're rewarding and recognizing

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people when they do great work.

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So there's a lot of emphasis on training, but that we're also supporting

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the well being of our employees, as well as supporting managers

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to lead well and to manage well, all those, all those

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things. And then making sure that people feel like

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they belong to organization. Where? In east London. So for us,

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it's also important that people can, that who work with us look

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like the demographics that they are surrounded by.

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So making sure that people can come and work for us who look like people

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who live there. I think that's also important for

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our agenda as people. I guess we'll ask you more questions in terms of

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how that combines through an organization development lens in a moment.

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But what was your journey into this field?

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I would say perhaps, I was thinking about this the other

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day, and I would say probably when I undertook

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my master's degree in HR management some 19 years

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ago, when we're looking at consulting frameworks

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and all of that, looking at, I was trying

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to remember this. Change models, all the different change models.

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Lewings three stage model, all of that. I think that

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would be my first introduction. And then as

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I finished that and got into business partnering roles, I started to

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notice that. And I was really fortunate to do

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interim roles for many years, which meant I went from organization to

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organization. What was obvious to me was that the

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traditional way of just transacting HR

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businesses was not as effective as if you looked at it from

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a wider perspective, looked at it from a system, looked at it from

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a process, looked at it from what's the structure? What,

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what does this mean? And I, and I began to really get

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interested in, in, in that I'm a curious person,

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naturally, but that got me thinking about it, like,

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why are you doing, you know, just being inquisitive and, and asking more questions.

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So if, you know, some of people are supported. If they said,

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oh, we need to do this right now. We need to, you know,

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cut the job or choopy people out. I was interested

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in, yes. And when you choopy them over,

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what does that mean? They're not going to suddenly change from day one

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where you've merged them with a new organization, new team,

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new stories. And then I began to become

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really curious about it. How can we make that happen in

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a way that's more sustainable, in a way that means that

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people could settle better, and that just kept

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getting developed. Another example was in leading

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employee relations, which I really enjoyed

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doing that, and I led, and I've had employee

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relations portfolio under me for many, many years. I realized

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that people would often come and say, oh, this team is not performing.

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I had an example once where a director said to me,

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we're failing. Looking at metrics, we're not meeting

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our targets. There are patients risk. There are people risk.

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They had about, in a 600 people directorate,

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they had about 100 employee relation cases,

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and they just thought it was fine. And the previous HR

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team that were looking after them just kept transacting these grievances and

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cases, and people were just getting frustrated,

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sick, and then they became even sick. And then you had different strengths

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of not just the grievance of disciplinary,

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now had another cohort being sick of that court. It just was mayhem.

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And I got them to start thinking about, what's the culture here?

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What's going on here? And by the time, you know, and I

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said to them, you don't. It's not a badge of honor to have 100

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cases. And you've been to employment tribunals so many times.

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And then when we started to delve deep, and I was like, okay, can I

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see what your do? Are people clear on their roles and responsibilities to

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be, to begin with? Do they have touch points with their managers?

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What's the structure like? And then you start asking these questions, you start seeing

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the picture emerge. You know, some might say, I've never seen my manager

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for the last six months. Managers been so stressed, they're doing

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something completely different. Or you notice

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people. You know, one of the things people said to me was, yeah, there's a

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blame culture here, so if you get it wrong, so people are fearful.

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There's a very, you know, top down approach, commandeering. You start

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looking at all those things. And then I started to think,

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oh, there's more to this, to this machine. And I

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started looking more into it. And from then on, I just started to develop my

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OD, thinking around a wider system based approach

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to problem solving or even to developing capability.

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Wow. Sorry. There's just so many things in there which is really interesting.

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I know Danny is a former HR director.

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I can see that. But that's

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really interesting because I think the business partner model, like business

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partnering, is tough. You've got so much

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to do, such a broad set of responsibilities,

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and you can go home at the end of the day, having resolved all these

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employee relations issues, feeling like you've done a good day's work because the task

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has been completed. But there's something around what you were doing there

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which is actually, yes, that's on the surface,

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that's the symptom, but what's happening beneath the surface

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and having different types of conversations and that it takes curiosity,

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but it also takes courage as well, doesn't it? Because it's very easy just to

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serve the person that you're working with. What was it there that

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really drove you to have those different types of conversation and how welcome was

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it? Very good question, Gary. And actually, you mentioned

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something that's really dear to me, and I say that a lot and mention it

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to my mentees and colleagues. It's the word professional courage.

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Without that, you really can't do lots of these

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things. And initially, before I became a business partner,

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I think I was a HR manager, but I very quickly realized

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that's not the way I wanted to work because I don't want to manage.

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And then I've seen that as the difference between that, you know,

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HR business partner who's curious, who's not hasty

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about, let's just band eight this issue and move.

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Of course, it's very, it can be a long drawn process

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because people don't have time. They don't have the we're

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time poor. Generally. We want to just move on and feel like we've done something

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long. Great. But I know that sustainable

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change takes time, and that's the way I've always supported

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every organization I worked with, either as a change lead

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to always think beyond what you're trying to change. And you're right.

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Professional courage. I was fortunate, I think,

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because in the big part of my HR business partnering days,

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I was working as an interim. So that helped me to,

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a, for people to ask me to come and work for them because they saw

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the value in what I could bring to their team. So that gave me a

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bit of, if you like that there was a mandate there,

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but b, for us to contract very well about. Is this

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what you want me to do? And if not, if it's not congruent

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with what I believe is right. Then there's an opportunity for

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us to talk about it. The particular example

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I gave about this employee relations case, I remember joining the organization

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and on day one we had

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a meeting with the executives and we had different views that were being played

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out instantly. I knew that they didn't understand what business partnering

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was. They thought I was there to just be the extended leg,

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to do some of the work and just get on with it. So we went

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back to the drawing board to try and, you know,

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reeducate about what is the business partner

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model? What is it as your business partner that you

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should expect from me? So, and once we reset and they were open

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to that and we set some ground rules, we're able to work

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together and we recovered all this, all those problems, actually, they began

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to think themselves about decisions they were about to make.

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So they didn't then come to me with everything they would think.

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What would bola ask us? Because they now would ask them a series of questions

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and it really works well in the end. So, yeah, that's brilliant.

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I love what you're saying there, because again, something that we sometimes see in organization

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here to get your view is, yes, people take on interim

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professionals, but often it's, there's been a lag,

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there's been no one there in the role previously. There's a big lot of work

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to be done. Interims, you know, they're not as

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cheap in the short term as employees.

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Spare pair of hands get to work.

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I guess what you're saying there is, though, let's contract,

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let's define what we're looking for. Let's agree that

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we all know what good and done looks like, and then if it's still not

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understood, let's keep going on it. Before we get begin,

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are you the exception or the rule when it comes to that? Well,

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if were people understanding, I think, and I've

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worked with really fantastic business partners and directors who

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get it, but I think sometimes

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it's the challenge between managing that tension between let's get on

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doing what we need to do because we've got to justify. So I really get

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it. And then it feels like an exception because it's more like the

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novel thing to do. Like, yes, this is there,

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which is why my argument there was a period where people felt that

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the public sector or NHS particularly, was spending too much money

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on interims. And I said that's how you get to balance this,

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you know, imbalanced situation where you have people who have

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been there for maybe many, many years and doing

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the same thing. But then if you bring in something new and inject

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that supporting, it gives some of the others the breathing space to go and

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develop and do more stuff, and it just helps to recalibrate

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things. So I think it's yes and no,

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as most things in organization development, aren't they brilliant?

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So we love kind of unpacking for people what roles

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really look like day to day. So can you tell us what a typical,

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we won't say a typical day, but what a typical week looks like that looks

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like for you? Typical week will start with,

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in fact, by Sunday night for me, when I'm beginning to

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get into work mode and I'm thinking, what do I need to do

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next this week? And my kids have said, Sunday's not the

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beginning of the week. For me, it's like the beginning of the week, we can

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start thinking about what does my week look like? I can be,

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if you like, intentional about what I'm going to do that week. But Mondays

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at LLDC is when we have executive management team meetings,

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and usually there will be things to discuss or papers

17:03.652 --> 17:07.788
to review. So we'll spend the day without my

17:07.836 --> 17:12.004
EMT colleagues with our CEO, and then I'm in the office Mondays

17:12.044 --> 17:15.548
to Wednesdays, we work in a hybrid way, so I mean,

17:15.596 --> 17:19.023
Mondays to Wednesdays and then Thursday, Fridays I'm at home, so.

17:19.063 --> 17:23.103
But those three first three days will be meetings, will be huddles

17:23.183 --> 17:27.007
with my team, huddles with my senior

17:27.055 --> 17:31.231
team, and it might be meetings with the whole pod

17:31.287 --> 17:34.951
team, our people and OD team, trying to just meet

17:35.007 --> 17:38.559
different colleagues within the business and trying to just think

17:38.591 --> 17:42.183
of what's the forward look? We have a forward look system where we're constantly looking

17:42.223 --> 17:45.591
at what's coming up. Is it a committee? Do we have papers to write?

17:45.647 --> 17:49.663
So it's just trying to service all of that, but creating some

17:49.823 --> 17:53.216
room for, you know, just somebody might want to come and

17:53.240 --> 17:56.520
talk to me or catch up with me. I have coffee

17:56.552 --> 18:00.184
breaks now with people in my team every quarter, so that

18:00.224 --> 18:03.576
goes around every quarter. But before you know it, it feels sometimes

18:03.600 --> 18:07.112
I'm having a coffee break with somebody or with a colleague, which is nice.

18:07.248 --> 18:10.536
It does break the day up a bit and. Yeah, and then

18:10.560 --> 18:14.124
you see what emerges or unfolds during the course of the week.

18:14.424 --> 18:18.036
The combination of the organization development and the

18:18.060 --> 18:22.572
chief people officer role. Like, are they mutually exclusive,

18:22.668 --> 18:26.460
or do they sort of like you? You do one, but through the lens.

18:26.572 --> 18:29.744
How does that work? Or is it just like kind of it happen.

18:30.244 --> 18:33.596
I think they are intertwined. I personally,

18:33.660 --> 18:37.644
I don't think you can realistically do one other

18:37.684 --> 18:41.076
than when you think about your shopfront, which is to pay people and all of

18:41.100 --> 18:44.868
that, that's, that's fine. But once you go beyond that, I don't think you can

18:44.916 --> 18:48.446
separate the two. So, for example, for us,

18:48.510 --> 18:52.142
when looking at maybe transition and all

18:52.158 --> 18:55.582
the different ways we're needing to shift and change, I have to

18:55.598 --> 18:59.526
be thinking about what does that mean for us when we've evolved?

18:59.630 --> 19:03.334
We're not just going to evolve into a vacuum. What does that mean?

19:03.494 --> 19:07.222
And what does that mean for people coming to work for LLDC

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who have seen us as this wonderful organization behind

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the Olympic park? We still need to retain that,

19:14.778 --> 19:18.146
you know, magnanimity if you like, or that we're still

19:18.250 --> 19:21.882
doing really important work. We want to attract the best talent

19:21.938 --> 19:26.338
still. So how do we do that? Making sure that there are no invincible barriers

19:26.386 --> 19:30.186
in our system that will preclude some people from, from wanting

19:30.210 --> 19:33.306
to come and work for us. So it's constantly looking at that. What does it

19:33.330 --> 19:36.874
mean for our values? So our values have been there for some time.

19:36.994 --> 19:40.476
How does that need to change at all? And why, what does that mean for

19:40.500 --> 19:44.188
our strategy? Is the people's strategy

19:44.316 --> 19:47.836
speaking to the overall organization's vision and long term plan?

19:47.980 --> 19:51.188
So it's constantly, I think they're quite

19:51.236 --> 19:55.784
intertwined. And what does it mean for leadership?

19:56.364 --> 19:58.864
What's our approach to collective leadership?

19:59.644 --> 20:03.388
Maybe as executives, but also from a middle

20:03.436 --> 20:07.052
management perspective, knowing the value that middle

20:07.228 --> 20:11.004
managers bring to, to the employees engagement and

20:11.084 --> 20:15.300
people's sense of belonging at work. So, yeah, I see, I constantly

20:15.412 --> 20:18.972
see it as a, if you like a nice dance between the two

20:19.028 --> 20:22.596
and knowing when, when do you need to keep the thinking going?

20:22.740 --> 20:26.036
The thinking never stops for me. I think I'm always thinking it,

20:26.140 --> 20:29.460
but also doing when there's a need to. Yeah,

20:29.492 --> 20:31.652
I really want to pick up on that as well because we spend a lot

20:31.668 --> 20:35.452
of time getting people to think. There's not enough thinking

20:35.548 --> 20:39.926
in the world. And the way you're articulating it really beautifully is

20:39.950 --> 20:43.126
that there's just these, particularly in a senior strategic role like yours, is that there's

20:43.150 --> 20:46.714
a lot of strategic questions we need to be thinking about. And, you know,

20:47.094 --> 20:50.262
how do you make time to this, to do this thinking? Is it something that

20:50.278 --> 20:54.558
happens in the nature of the work or do you designate time to think

20:54.606 --> 20:58.574
and how do you go about doing it? Personally, I create some time

20:58.614 --> 21:01.726
to think. I'm a reflective person by nature.

21:01.790 --> 21:05.874
So I'm always thinking, and I have to balance

21:05.914 --> 21:09.634
that with making sure that I do. So I don't have a problem with thinking

21:09.674 --> 21:13.154
at all. And I'm actually quite. I can be task focused as well. I've got

21:13.194 --> 21:18.250
really strong blue preference from an insight discovery perspective,

21:18.402 --> 21:21.770
but I try and balance them properly so I create the

21:21.802 --> 21:25.610
time and if I don't feel like I have time to think, I start to

21:25.642 --> 21:29.534
feel quite stifled because I know that good work happens when

21:30.144 --> 21:33.164
I've created time to really, if you like.

21:33.504 --> 21:37.376
And that's why I do a forward look and planning ahead to

21:37.480 --> 21:41.280
think through. Okay, what does. This doesn't mean it has to be landed completely,

21:41.312 --> 21:44.644
because it's always evolving. So it's a bit of both

21:45.624 --> 21:49.144
putting some margin in my diary to do that thinking,

21:49.304 --> 21:52.144
but also thinking with others as well.

21:52.224 --> 21:55.400
Just. Yeah, I was going to say, how do you encourage your wider team

21:55.432 --> 21:58.774
to make space for the forward look as well? Yeah,

22:00.794 --> 22:04.426
I'm just thinking about the team I

22:04.450 --> 22:07.602
have now is very small compared to the one we had before,

22:07.778 --> 22:10.842
but the way I encourage that is making sure we have,

22:10.978 --> 22:14.250
like I said, the coffee spaces, you know, having no agenda,

22:14.282 --> 22:18.330
just meeting with colleagues in my team and having coffee dates with them.

22:18.522 --> 22:21.922
We do quite a bit of thinking there. We have our huddles

22:22.018 --> 22:26.086
as well. Where these days, I don't necessarily put

22:26.110 --> 22:30.126
it as an agenda, but I might ask one question at the end, one question

22:30.230 --> 22:34.158
for people to go and think about. We have away days,

22:34.246 --> 22:37.758
we have both the overall team but also the senior team

22:37.886 --> 22:41.326
to just. And I have. And I do ask myself

22:41.390 --> 22:44.294
questions as well, just list some things I want to think about.

22:44.454 --> 22:48.062
Just put it there and go away and do something else. Sometimes it gets answered

22:48.198 --> 22:52.004
while doing something else. So, yeah, because there's not enough time

22:52.044 --> 22:55.464
to just sit there and be thinking and going, oh, I'm really thinking,

22:56.524 --> 23:02.356
would that be a luxury? Just wistfully looking out of the window and.

23:02.380 --> 23:05.716
Because people want to see actions. Right. So I think in a.

23:05.740 --> 23:09.436
In a. In a society and workplace where it's about what have we

23:09.460 --> 23:13.260
delivered? People are wanting to see what have we delivered? But I'm

23:13.292 --> 23:16.620
also quite interested in why have we delivered it and why are we trying

23:16.652 --> 23:20.152
to deliver it. So. But it's managing. It's managing all

23:20.168 --> 23:23.344
of that. Yeah. It sounds like a managing intentions there, doesn't it?

23:23.464 --> 23:26.944
And what do you enjoy most about your role particularly? So the

23:27.024 --> 23:30.944
OD elements like what do you get most fulfillment or satisfaction

23:30.984 --> 23:34.616
from? I like the fact that it's versatile, that I

23:34.640 --> 23:38.232
can 1 minute be doing something really, really strategic

23:38.288 --> 23:41.848
and then I can be doing something else and using

23:41.896 --> 23:45.554
some of my skills that gained while developing in my HR career

23:45.594 --> 23:49.098
to help my team think or troubleshoot. I do like that,

23:49.226 --> 23:53.154
but I enjoy mostly now thinking about

23:53.314 --> 23:57.274
the impact that we as people, professionals can have on people

23:57.354 --> 24:00.186
and an organization and the legacy of that,

24:00.370 --> 24:04.018
especially thinking about where I'm at in my career. I'm like,

24:04.066 --> 24:07.666
this is the time to really make a difference. I like the fact

24:07.690 --> 24:10.944
that I'm doing lots of mentoring, have quite a

24:11.444 --> 24:14.880
few mentees that I'm supporting that is really rewarding. I get

24:14.912 --> 24:18.960
to be able to bring some of that knowledge and experience to them.

24:19.152 --> 24:23.088
But I like the fact that I also use my, my skill

24:23.176 --> 24:26.896
as a trained therapist in service of my work

24:26.960 --> 24:30.744
so I don't have to, I don't come to work trying to psychoanalyze

24:30.784 --> 24:33.552
or give therapy to people.

24:33.648 --> 24:37.392
But that in itself helps me personally to stay grounded

24:37.448 --> 24:41.140
when I'm and to regulate because some of the things we're dealing with

24:41.172 --> 24:43.828
is really, some of them are quite emotive,

24:43.996 --> 24:47.660
sensitive, all of that. So I get to use that but also get

24:47.692 --> 24:51.420
to pass that to others in my, because of

24:51.452 --> 24:55.060
my influence I can have as part of my role and

24:55.092 --> 24:58.660
developing people is really an enjoyable part for me.

24:58.772 --> 25:01.436
Yeah. And you've touched on a really important thing, isn't it? Because particularly like in

25:01.460 --> 25:04.852
HR, there's so much emotion that is projected

25:04.988 --> 25:08.276
onto you and it's often like you're just the

25:08.300 --> 25:12.036
vessel sometimes. Like you're trying to manage a process or take people from

25:12.060 --> 25:15.100
a to b and that as well. Um, obviously with,

25:15.132 --> 25:18.460
with the sort of psychotherapy background, what is the importance of

25:18.492 --> 25:22.012
like for HR people at the center of change to have that kind

25:22.028 --> 25:25.524
of supervisory space so they can make sense of things.

25:25.684 --> 25:29.532
Yeah. If I had my way, first, let me say I think it's

25:29.588 --> 25:33.142
hugely important and I think it's only in recent

25:33.198 --> 25:37.422
times I started to think of the harm that can be perpetuated

25:37.518 --> 25:41.374
against HR people and that naive HR

25:41.414 --> 25:44.998
people can have on others, not because

25:45.046 --> 25:49.038
they're intentionally trying to. Which is why I

25:49.126 --> 25:52.838
started to think, actually when you have a, I've worked a lot in the NHS,

25:52.926 --> 25:55.274
doctors have to have their own supervision.

25:55.574 --> 25:59.854
Psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, they have their own supervision.

26:00.014 --> 26:03.254
And I've begun to think of the HR space, how much

26:03.294 --> 26:07.438
supervision do we give? Yes, we have one to ones and,

26:07.486 --> 26:10.726
you know, which sometimes you just is about the job. Boom,

26:10.750 --> 26:14.462
boom, boom, you're out. But I think it's hugely important as you

26:14.478 --> 26:18.086
said, Garen, there's a lot of contagion that we get from

26:18.230 --> 26:21.662
supporting others, which if you don't know how to manage

26:21.718 --> 26:25.278
that or how to manage your own self regulation, that just

26:25.326 --> 26:28.718
doesn't work. And perhaps that's what leads to some of the

26:28.806 --> 26:32.334
problems that people say, oh, I'm not feeling supported by my,

26:32.414 --> 26:36.118
you know, HRBP or whatever. And then by the time you unpack

26:36.166 --> 26:39.838
that the HRBP or the person has done

26:39.926 --> 26:43.206
everything by the books, there's something mold that the person

26:43.270 --> 26:47.278
isn't getting. Is it that they just want someone to be with them

26:47.446 --> 26:51.078
rather than just tell them what they know? So it's.

26:51.126 --> 26:54.614
But it's only if the person really understands, as you said earlier

26:54.654 --> 26:58.508
on, Garen, about beneath the iceberg, was there

26:58.636 --> 27:02.692
is the anxiety that's displaying itself as their manus and,

27:02.828 --> 27:07.012
you know, anger or whatever, but only if you're attuned

27:07.068 --> 27:09.844
to your own self and what's going on in the room,

27:09.964 --> 27:13.308
which is why I love OD, because OD helps you think about group

27:13.356 --> 27:17.108
process, group dynamics and all these other things that

27:17.236 --> 27:21.028
can help people be much more equipped

27:21.076 --> 27:24.502
to deal with what's in the room type of thing, which if somebody

27:24.518 --> 27:28.110
is coming just from a purely HR background, they might

27:28.142 --> 27:29.554
miss some of those things.

27:31.294 --> 27:34.806
I'm so glad I asked that. That was just beautiful. I've got about

27:34.830 --> 27:38.102
50 people I want to send that to. Yeah, I'm thinking

27:38.118 --> 27:41.630
this people are going to get so much value from this conversation. It's fantastic.

27:41.742 --> 27:44.814
Thank you. So we've talked about what you enjoy most. What do you find most

27:44.854 --> 27:48.994
challenging about your role? What do I find challenging?

27:49.914 --> 27:53.402
Most challenging? I think it's the most. Maybe not

27:53.458 --> 27:57.026
most challenging, but maybe challenging sometimes

27:57.210 --> 28:00.450
when I'm feeling like I'm incongruent

28:00.522 --> 28:03.574
with what is going on. Because again,

28:03.954 --> 28:07.194
in this role, I think one has to think about your own

28:07.234 --> 28:10.866
personal values versus, you know, what, the organization's values.

28:10.890 --> 28:14.322
And I'm not just saying that for LLDC, I'm saying that generally

28:14.378 --> 28:17.914
my HR career, that's what I probably

28:18.034 --> 28:21.714
find challenging at times might be when we want to do

28:21.754 --> 28:25.146
something. But I'm then thinking, what does this mean for something else and

28:25.170 --> 28:28.734
the time in between to try and win the heart and mind

28:29.514 --> 28:32.834
and try to get that. But again, I think that's where

28:32.874 --> 28:36.570
HR really comes in to bring that value to the

28:36.602 --> 28:41.042
business. So I see that as a space for us, which is

28:41.058 --> 28:44.750
a welcome challenge because I grow as a result of it,

28:44.902 --> 28:48.518
other people grow as a result of it, but it can sometimes feel

28:48.566 --> 28:51.942
like, oh, why are they not getting us? But really. And then I remind myself,

28:51.998 --> 28:55.294
that's why we're HR, no d. And that's why they pay us to do this

28:55.334 --> 28:58.758
job. So come and get on with it. But otherwise,

28:58.806 --> 29:01.606
it's not an insurmountable challenge at all.

29:01.710 --> 29:04.942
Fabulous. And then when you think about a week or a month, how do you

29:05.038 --> 29:08.034
look back and think, this has been a successful week? How do you measure success?

29:08.454 --> 29:11.806
Yeah, because I guess you've got the classic metrics, haven't you? There's certain things that

29:11.870 --> 29:14.510
HR has always measured against, like engagement,

29:14.662 --> 29:18.494
turnover, often these are lag indicators,

29:18.574 --> 29:21.982
though, aren't they? They're measuring something that's happened over weeks,

29:22.038 --> 29:25.470
months or years previously, aren't they? It's true. And you can

29:25.502 --> 29:28.950
have those hard data to say, yeah, we've done.

29:29.062 --> 29:32.350
But again, I know that good things don't happen like

29:32.382 --> 29:35.918
that overnight. It takes a while. So I'm always taking a longer

29:35.966 --> 29:39.514
term view about what success means or what's successful,

29:40.434 --> 29:43.674
because otherwise you can have a quick win and think, oh, yeah,

29:43.714 --> 29:47.146
that's been successful, but three months later, is it still?

29:47.290 --> 29:51.274
So, yes, you have the data to look at how we're doing,

29:51.434 --> 29:54.778
but looking at qualitative and quantitative data, but also leaving

29:54.826 --> 29:58.210
room for anecdotes and feedback. And in the moment,

29:58.282 --> 30:02.074
just temperature checking what's going on, because what was going on

30:02.154 --> 30:05.706
two weeks ago may have quickly moved on. So I

30:05.730 --> 30:08.536
think success for me is then bringing all those,

30:08.640 --> 30:12.656
extrapolating those information and data and taking

30:12.720 --> 30:16.296
a sense of, okay, what is this telling me?

30:16.440 --> 30:19.656
But also then using it to predict the future.

30:19.720 --> 30:23.976
So using that data as a predictive tool rather than just something that describes

30:24.120 --> 30:27.224
how we've done, how wonderful, which is great,

30:27.344 --> 30:30.680
but also using it and consolidating, okay, if this

30:30.712 --> 30:34.354
is not in the right direction, how can we consolidate that

30:34.394 --> 30:37.866
so that it helps us towards the future as well? Yeah,

30:37.890 --> 30:41.050
and there's loads of really interesting things you say. One thread I want to pull

30:41.082 --> 30:44.746
on, obviously, as chief people officer, you're in

30:44.770 --> 30:48.026
amongst the senior leadership. Prevention is always better

30:48.050 --> 30:51.130
than cure. So the earlier that HR is involved in

30:51.162 --> 30:54.234
decisions and initiatives and that people element is brought

30:54.274 --> 30:57.570
into it, and also that relationship with the

30:57.602 --> 31:01.322
CEO is also really critical to make sure that at least

31:01.418 --> 31:04.854
HR is someone that they consult to but can often have that close.

31:05.274 --> 31:09.106
What can HR do to be recognized, to be seen to be Alyn Valley?

31:09.130 --> 31:11.934
Because you take a very pragmatic approach as well, don't you?

31:12.274 --> 31:15.618
Yeah. Again, it's only

31:15.706 --> 31:18.986
going to be as successful as your, if you

31:19.010 --> 31:22.534
like your engagement with your stakeholders as

31:24.594 --> 31:27.626
we're not going to be giving a seat in the room if people don't see

31:27.650 --> 31:31.306
the value of inviting us to the room. So I think I'm always an

31:31.330 --> 31:35.132
advocate for us, making our offerings very

31:35.188 --> 31:39.044
clear. This is how I can add value to you taking that I've never

31:39.084 --> 31:43.076
seen, even though as a chief people officer or director, I don't see myself less

31:43.100 --> 31:46.188
than a business partner. I just see my business partnering

31:46.356 --> 31:49.852
happening at a different scale, on a different scale, at a higher level.

31:49.948 --> 31:54.460
So I see myself partnering my CEO with my executive colleagues

31:54.612 --> 31:58.802
whilst my other, you know, heads of, they also

31:58.858 --> 32:01.986
have people they're partnering with. I see that as a is an

32:02.010 --> 32:05.978
ongoing work and part of that is ensuring I understand

32:06.066 --> 32:09.618
where they want to go. There's some key people you want to work well

32:09.666 --> 32:13.594
with as HR because it makes the work just easier.

32:13.634 --> 32:17.130
And then once they see the value that you bring,

32:17.322 --> 32:20.842
I think then we win that argument of banging the door. They would,

32:20.898 --> 32:24.136
they would be calling us very quickly to say, I'm thinking about this,

32:24.250 --> 32:27.940
you know, what you, and in the relationship building and rapport,

32:28.092 --> 32:31.628
I think some things just generally come up rather than relying

32:31.676 --> 32:35.100
so much on our processes and, you know, just that

32:35.212 --> 32:39.252
it's the relationship building, understanding the business,

32:39.348 --> 32:42.396
their pains, what's on their minds. You know,

32:42.420 --> 32:45.876
one of the questions I would ask sometimes, what's on your mind?

32:46.020 --> 32:49.044
Well, what's what? Just, and it doesn't have to be

32:49.084 --> 32:52.754
my list of. And then from there we just start

32:52.834 --> 32:55.794
tapping into what's important for them for that week or month.

32:55.874 --> 32:59.554
And you mentioned professional courage. What role

32:59.594 --> 33:03.042
does professional courage play in business partnering? Because business

33:03.098 --> 33:06.690
partnering isn't, you're just there to serve and whatever request is made, you just fulfill

33:06.722 --> 33:10.074
it perfectly. It's much more than that, isn't it?

33:10.154 --> 33:14.090
What role does professional courage play? It plays a hugely important

33:14.202 --> 33:17.704
role in helping challenge the status quo.

33:17.864 --> 33:21.472
It means that you're also intentionally using yourself

33:21.608 --> 33:24.928
in a way that is likely to give you the best results.

33:25.096 --> 33:28.432
So it means you're also putting a demand

33:28.488 --> 33:32.232
on your own professionalism. And especially in

33:32.248 --> 33:34.924
a domain like people and OD,

33:35.664 --> 33:39.484
we want to serve as in some ways the conscience of the organization.

33:39.984 --> 33:43.700
We want to also be, we want to be leading in

33:43.732 --> 33:47.020
people. We want to be leading and showing how good or

33:47.052 --> 33:50.204
how people management should look like we should be the example.

33:50.244 --> 33:54.484
So I think that helps us to shine that

33:54.604 --> 33:57.828
through our own practice because then role modeling then comes

33:57.876 --> 34:01.252
in, then people see they go without you even teaching

34:01.308 --> 34:04.652
people or saying, or teaching a manager, they can see you doing

34:04.708 --> 34:08.150
it. And then that helps. It helps mitigate

34:08.182 --> 34:12.274
against risk, because what happens if a people and OD

34:12.774 --> 34:16.742
partner isn't able to challenge in a safe space or

34:16.798 --> 34:19.982
have professional courage to say, oh, by the way,

34:20.038 --> 34:24.590
have you thought about this? What does this mean then? It means that if

34:24.622 --> 34:27.998
not, then there's a lot of risk, there's people risk, there's litigation

34:28.086 --> 34:32.142
risk, and we will not be serving well.

34:32.278 --> 34:35.734
And I do say now that the CIPD professional map

34:35.774 --> 34:38.996
is, you know, it's not very clear what you should be doing as a.

34:39.100 --> 34:42.388
As a partner, then it means we're responsible.

34:42.556 --> 34:46.340
My old boss, previous boss, used to say if a

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consultant or a nurse was negligent,

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you would see very quickly the impact

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of that. They would be referred to GMC or to wherever.

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But when people, professionals are negligent or don't display

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professional courage, what happens? Because no one really

35:04.580 --> 35:08.036
sees the immediate impact, but it doesn't mean that

35:08.060 --> 35:11.540
there's not an impact. So. And I think professional courage really helps

35:11.572 --> 35:14.276
to, if you like,

35:14.340 --> 35:18.204
improve effectiveness, but reduce risk, reduce harm,

35:18.324 --> 35:21.988
and helps build a good culture and helps improve

35:22.036 --> 35:25.764
the capability of an organization. Yeah, it's interesting, we had Steve

35:25.804 --> 35:28.344
Hearsoman the other day, and he was saying,

35:28.844 --> 35:31.900
talking around sort of professional courage, and he was sort of saying,

35:32.052 --> 35:35.572
what's good for the organization is not necessarily good for your career in

35:35.588 --> 35:38.668
the short term. So sometimes you are into places

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where you might be feeding back things that people don't necessarily want

35:42.476 --> 35:45.852
to hear or challenging them when they just,

35:45.948 --> 35:49.660
all the biases are kicking in and, like, look, overconfidence bias and yours pointing

35:49.692 --> 35:53.504
it out, actually, do you know what? Have you considered this bit?

35:54.124 --> 35:57.580
Is that something that we just have to overcome as a profession? I think we

35:57.612 --> 36:01.164
have to. It's. It's not. I mean, being professionally courageous

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is not. I've arrived now, so I'm just

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going to tell you how you need to do everything and organize everything.

36:07.932 --> 36:12.412
No, there's something about tactfulness.

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There's something about being mindful of

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what's, you know, taking time to understand why people are where

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they are and what journey, and validating their

36:22.284 --> 36:26.556
journey, because it's not like I'll throw everything away. You're. So. It's understanding

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their journey, their progress, but also helping

36:30.448 --> 36:33.800
work alongside them to say it could even be better

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and incrementally adding value.

36:37.024 --> 36:40.280
So it's not just, you know, it's not dumping things on

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people. So I think it's balancing that. But at some point.

36:43.904 --> 36:47.056
It's also being values driven, definitely. So you've

36:47.080 --> 36:50.576
got to be thinking, what are my personal values? Are they aligned

36:50.600 --> 36:54.512
with the values of this organization? Or, you know, of course not immediately I

36:54.528 --> 36:57.974
will turn up some. And we may not always agree on all our values,

36:58.014 --> 37:01.510
but is there some alignment somewhere? And then at

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some point, if you really feel they're really at odds, part of

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professional courage is to say, actually, I've done

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my best here. Is this the best environment for me? And take

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decisions that much more that you have control over rather than

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other people? Really, really great advice, I think, for people. We often say to leader,

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to HR people, you can do a lot by asking really good coaching questions

37:24.830 --> 37:27.348
if you're senior leaders. So you don't need to, as you say, you don't need

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to go in like a pull in a china shop and beat them over the

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head. Just gentle kind of smart questions can

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just help people get a new perspective and rethink things.

37:36.732 --> 37:39.864
What's some of the biggest lessons you've learned along the way?

37:40.644 --> 37:44.148
Along the way? Along my HR way? Yeah. Or if you

37:44.156 --> 37:47.356
can go broader, you're very welcome. It's your space. All lessons are good. We love.

37:47.420 --> 37:51.100
This is one of our favorite questions of these podcasts. One of

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my big ones is to not create a new problem

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while trying to solve an existing one.

37:58.114 --> 38:01.594
That's genius. And those who know

38:01.634 --> 38:04.770
me very well in my HR space, they would have heard me say

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that at least once. I always say it all the time,

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and that's because, and I've seen in many contexts, whether you're dealing

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with a change of values or trying to change

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your systems or trying to employee

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relations issue, whatever it is, I've noticed over time

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that most times there's a real drive or

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appetite to solve a problem right now, here and then,

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because we're not thinking about it properly, we're then creating

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injury. All we're doing is just introducing another new problem.

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So one of the questions I would ask my, my leaders

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or people I'm working with, is this solution likely to create a new

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problem? And if it is, then maybe it's not

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the full solution. It might be a temporary,

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it doesn't mean we can't still introduce it, but at least then we're aware

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of all the limitations and start to work towards. So that's

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one of my learnings, to not create a new problem while trying to solve

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one. And I'm always questioning when people bring a solution like

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that, because I'm looking at it from that perspective. The other thing I've

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learned along the way is that people are fascinating. And just,

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even though I know that, but every day I'm just really fascinated by

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people and, and that people really do evolve.

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So don't cling to outdated views of

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people or systems or things. And therefore,

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what that does is it makes me curious every day just to

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see, okay, what is today saying was, yes, I can use

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all the past as a, you know, using it as a, like a

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rear view mirror to see what's in the past, but not cling to it

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because, and that goes again with lots of the advice

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that HR departments or these people prefer, the solutions we

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prefer if we keep clinging to outdated views and

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opinions. Things have moved on so quickly, so dynamic,

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we almost need to look at what's, what's in front of us right now as

40:02.410 --> 40:04.490
well. I think those would be the two.

40:04.682 --> 40:08.826
Fabulous. Okay. And just, just as we wrap up. So learning

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and development is really important for people in our, for everybody, but particularly peel up,

40:12.498 --> 40:15.106
I think, in our space. How do you invest in your own learning and development?

40:15.170 --> 40:18.338
What does that look like for you? Really good question.

40:18.386 --> 40:22.266
What does that look like for me? It looks like me thinking

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every quarter about what I'm learning and planning ahead.

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So I do do that through goal setting or goal

40:30.002 --> 40:33.636
planning. So every year I have one or two big things I want

40:33.660 --> 40:37.908
to achieve in my career. And then I do have mentors.

40:38.076 --> 40:41.516
I also do have coaching. I also do a

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lot of peer to peer coaching because even as a, as a

40:45.108 --> 40:48.148
chief people officer, you just don't know everything.

40:48.236 --> 40:52.020
You're still sometimes just because you haven't been doing something for a long time or

40:52.052 --> 40:55.380
very handsome. So I do have a group of people that

40:55.412 --> 40:58.944
I would call and say, oh, let's bounce ideas. What do you think about this?

40:59.084 --> 41:02.624
I love reading. I read a lot. Showing curiosity,

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learning from everything and everyone. I come into every day

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thinking, what can I learn this day? What's that?

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One or two things I didn't know before that I can pick up, whether that's

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reading a Harvard business review or looking at Gary's LinkedIn

41:16.928 --> 41:19.644
post and successful.

41:21.064 --> 41:24.504
Just, yeah, just picking up learning as I go along. Not just

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both structured, but, you know, from exposure and

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just, yeah. And just setting goals and. Yeah, reading and

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talking to people, finding out about what they're doing.

41:36.128 --> 41:39.680
It's really interesting because reading has come up quite a lot and not necessarily just

41:39.712 --> 41:43.296
reading around your own subjects, but broader reading can really help. Can it?

41:43.320 --> 41:47.168
Turns your own development. Is that something that you look to do? I do yes,

41:47.216 --> 41:50.204
I've got, unfortunately, I've got many, many books,

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both on audible and paper and by my bedside.

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And I'm just like, okay, peak one. But yeah, I do,

41:58.098 --> 42:01.978
what I do is I do go from, okay, what's interesting me

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right now or what's topical, and then I might start reading

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into that. And then, yeah, and I do read lots of my therapy

42:09.554 --> 42:13.082
stuff as well, which sometimes they cut across leadership.

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Yeah, I do like reading about new things and suggestions.

42:17.050 --> 42:20.610
Yeah. People tell me, oh, here's a suggestion. And I like to read just

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for reading sake, just to relax as well. So you're

42:24.498 --> 42:27.706
in that team, Danny, aren't you? I am. I love books. You can see

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behind me, stacks of them everywhere.

42:31.354 --> 42:34.506
And then last question. What we really want to do is

42:34.530 --> 42:38.138
inspire the next generation of organization development practitioners

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to come through, whether they're internal, external, whether they're interim,

42:41.434 --> 42:45.338
whether they're organization development consultant by name and title, or whether

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they just do their work in an OD way. What advice

42:49.126 --> 42:53.294
would you give someone who's considering either a career or just getting started to really

42:53.374 --> 42:57.022
gain confidence to apply themselves in this way?

42:57.158 --> 43:00.494
I think they should take a longer view of their

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learning or longer term view, because otherwise,

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I find sometimes when people are coming into people,

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an OD, or depending on how it's called in the organization,

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sometimes it's very much about, I need to be at this place by

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next year and then two years time. Very linear.

43:19.402 --> 43:22.690
I would say think about it not from a linear perspective, but from a

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circular model. That's the way. Because lots

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of things come back in the secular model, whether you're,

43:29.866 --> 43:32.882
you know, even if you start as a HR system and become a chief people

43:32.938 --> 43:36.330
officer, you're never going to stop still knowing about employee

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relations or management, or it just comes back in a different package.

43:40.282 --> 43:43.974
So I'd say take a longer term view and broaden

43:44.514 --> 43:48.488
that. People think about broadening their knowledge and having

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depth. I think sometimes people underestimate that

43:52.200 --> 43:54.968
people are no d, function as they think is.

43:55.136 --> 43:58.760
Yes, it's a very rewarding and financially

43:58.792 --> 44:02.512
rewarding career. Really great. I took it because

44:02.688 --> 44:06.344
I went on this path because I thought actually all

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organizations, at least over 200 or

44:09.744 --> 44:13.176
maybe 100, will have a HR department in one form or

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another, very dynamic. And, and if you like,

44:16.874 --> 44:19.922
you're always going to have a job, which is, it's a great profession,

44:20.058 --> 44:23.986
but it's beyond that is a profession that really adds value to

44:24.010 --> 44:27.370
people's lives and to it has impact. So,

44:27.522 --> 44:31.254
again, if you're thinking of something much more rewarding and purposeful.

44:31.594 --> 44:35.434
It's, it's, it could do that. But taking a longer term view and

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learning to add value, not just learning to gain,

44:40.106 --> 44:43.658
I think that's, that comes out of it. And that's not to stop people from

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being driven. You can be driven, but keep thinking of the value that it's

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having. But also to embed od thinking

44:51.602 --> 44:54.954
into what one is doing. That's where they. If you like,

44:54.994 --> 44:58.682
that's where the magic really happens with every other thing. So I

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would say it's. It serves well when one has that

45:02.226 --> 45:05.890
thinking. That would. And because the world has changed now, what people want from

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work has changed from what people wanted 2030

45:10.040 --> 45:13.648
years ago. People are wanting more meaning from coming

45:13.696 --> 45:17.200
to work. And I think OD practitioners can help in

45:17.232 --> 45:21.424
that space to help make meaningful environments

45:21.544 --> 45:24.672
for employees and organizations. Amazing.

45:24.768 --> 45:28.984
Wow. So it's been such a really enjoyable

45:29.064 --> 45:32.888
conversation, just the way you've articulated. I'm taking loads of things from today's

45:32.936 --> 45:35.936
conversation. I'm sure you are, Daniel, as well. There's a lot of things I've picked

45:35.960 --> 45:40.184
up from this. Is that okay if I share them? The importance of professional courage

45:40.344 --> 45:44.024
that was kind of woven throughout it. Sustainable change

45:44.104 --> 45:47.704
takes time, expectations around it, the importance of

45:47.744 --> 45:51.512
contracting before you begin. Good work happens when

45:51.528 --> 45:53.804
you've created the opportunity to plan ahead.

45:54.304 --> 45:57.888
The importance of supervision, business partnering at the level

45:57.936 --> 46:01.120
you're at. So not just leaving it to the people with the title business partner,

46:01.152 --> 46:04.616
but if you're in that senior HR role, then see that you're business

46:04.680 --> 46:08.480
partnering and really understanding your stakeholders, what brings

46:08.512 --> 46:12.928
them there, what motivates them, and that's, well, serving as the conscience

46:12.976 --> 46:16.832
of the organization. The importance of role modeling, importance of

46:16.888 --> 46:20.528
adding value and being values driven. And the

46:20.536 --> 46:23.544
one I'm really going to definitely take away is don't create another problem when trying

46:23.584 --> 46:27.200
to solve your current one. That is wisdom,

46:27.272 --> 46:28.124
isn't it?

46:30.504 --> 46:34.032
Yes. I'd echo a lot of what you said. I think, I won't repeat it,

46:34.048 --> 46:37.248
but I think the other thing was just how we are as people,

46:37.296 --> 46:41.016
practitioners and od practitioners really role models for others, how they can

46:41.040 --> 46:44.112
behave and be so, yeah. The importance of our impact as

46:44.128 --> 46:47.856
a practitioner. It's so good to know there's people like you

46:47.880 --> 46:51.368
out in the field doing great work and not only doing great

46:51.416 --> 46:54.824
work in your organization, but inspiring the next generation to come through as well.

46:54.864 --> 46:58.352
So thank you. Being so generous with your time and giving it so freely,

46:58.448 --> 47:02.244
and we really, really appreciate it. If anybody has any questions,

47:02.714 --> 47:05.386
can people reach out to you. And what would be a good way to do

47:05.410 --> 47:09.154
that? Yeah, they can. My LinkedIn is now linked

47:09.234 --> 47:12.634
with my work, so if people reached out, I'd easily see it.

47:12.674 --> 47:16.186
So, yeah, they can reach out on LinkedIn. Wonderful. Well, thank you so

47:16.210 --> 47:19.914
much for your time and. Yeah, brilliant. Thank you. So it's been really enjoyable.

47:19.954 --> 47:23.690
Thank you, Danny. It's been lovely talking to you guys. I've enjoyed

47:23.722 --> 47:26.930
it, too. Yeah, likewise. We've really enjoyed it. It's been a fantastic.