Lessons from a Career in Change & Organisation Development with Dr Hayley Lewis - OrgDev Episode 15

We're big fans of Dr Hayley Lewis who is probably known best by many for the amazing SketchNotes she creates and shares on Linked In.  In each Sketch note, she synthesises a leadership theory or model into an engaging and easy-to-understand illustration.   

Hayley is also a Chartered Coaching Psychologist and Registered Occupational Psychologist and works with organisations to foster happier workplaces where both leaders and their teams can thrive.  Her work and career are fascinating and we thoroughly enjoyed our conversation with Hayley.

Halo Psychology and subscribe to her newsletter here:
https://halopsychology.com/

Get her free ebook:
https://halopsychology.us15.list-mana...

Enjoy her amazing sketch notes here:
https://halopsychology.com/free-resou...

Thanks for listening!

Distinction is an evidence-based Organisation Development & Design Consultancy designed to support modern, progressive organisations to bring out the best in their people and their teams through training, consulting, and coaching.

Our professional and highly skilled consultants focus on delivering engaging, results-focused and flexible solutions that help our clients achieve their business objectives.

Find out more at https://distinction.live/how-we-can-help/

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Transcript

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Hi and welcome to the Dev podcast. We're absolutely

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delighted to be joined by the multitalented doctor Hayley Lewis.

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Hayley is the founder and director of Halo psychology.

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She describes herself as a pracademic, someone who actually

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makes psychology accessible. She's held a variety of

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roles in a fascinating career today in organizations such as the BBC

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and Croydon Council. Her organization Halo,

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specialises in team building, team development, executive coaching

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and really gets into the heart of organizations looking at things like leadership impact

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resilience, psychological safety, culture change in

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high performance teams. And she also makes time to be a keynote

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speaker as well. You might actually know her from her amazing sketch notes

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that she does on all things psychology and leadership. And she's

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actually had all of her work recognized by being most influential thinker in

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HR twice. She's esteemed in many

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different qualifications. She's a chartered coaching psychologist, she's a registered

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occupational psychologist. And somehow, I don't know,

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Danny, how she finds the time here, but she also co managers

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part one of the professional doctorate in occupational psychology at

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Birkbeck and also honorary lecturer for the masters in organisational psychology

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at City University. So we're absolutely delighted to be joined by

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Hayley. We've been tracking her work for a long time when she agreed to be

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on the session. We're absolutely delighted. So welcome. Haley, thanks so much for

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making time for this.

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Thank you so much for having me. It sounds like you stalked me.

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We kind of do. We do, but in a healthy way.

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Whenever I hear intros like that, I kind of sit there going, who are they

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talking about? I surprise even myself sometimes.

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We left a lot of stuff out. That's absolutely. We had to edit that.

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Quite. That was the highlights.

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Yeah. No one needs to know the low lights.

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Brilliant. Well, it's lovely to have you, Hayley. So thank you for joining us.

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So, just to kick off, just tell us a bit about what you do.

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What does your role involve day to day? What does that look like?

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My private practice role. So through my business,

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halo psychology, it's kind of like three pots,

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if you like. So the main one is executive coaching.

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So around 50% of my work is executive

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and management coaching. So I work with anyone from that first time manager,

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you know, rabbit in headlights, what the bloody hell have I done all the way

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up to kind of chief executive, managing director, kind of

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board of trustees, chairs of board of trustees and stuff like

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that, and everybody in between the other two parts. So,

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as Garen said, I do a lot of keynote

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talks and presentations. Love that.

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And then the third part is training and development,

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so with a particular focus on leadership and management

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development. So everything from designing and running courses,

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programs, workshops, and I do the odd leadership

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team build or team development session

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as well. So, yeah, very varied and

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I love it and I obviously balance that with an academic role. As you said

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at Birkbeck, do you work with across all sectors and industries

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or is a particular niche? Yeah, so my passion

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is the public sector and in particular local government.

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Unexpectedly, I fell completely and utterly head over

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heels in love with it. When I joined local

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government in 2005, I only meant to go for two years.

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It was part of my grand kind of start of my thirties.

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I think, like many of us, I had this very kind of linear

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but grand plan of I'll spend two years here and two years here and then

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I'll work my way up and take over the world. And it didn't quite work

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like that and I ended up staying in local government for eleven years and I

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was just fascinated by the workings

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of a low, of a large local authority.

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And so, yeah, so my passion is local government and

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good local government and helping local authorities who

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touch so many people's lives, helping them

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be, be even better.

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But I work across all sectors, so.

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And I love that. So I work with private sector

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organizations, I work with charities,

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I work with global organisations, big corporates,

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but my home is always local government and that's

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a really tough place to be at the moment, isn't it? Local authorities,

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local government, yeah. And I'm very protective over, I mean, don't get

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me wrong, you see some bad practice,

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right, but find me a sector that doesn't have

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some bad practice and some, or leadership,

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in my experience, and I've been lucky enough to work

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with quite a few. I mean, there's around 180 odd local authorities

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in the UK and I've worked with quite a few of them,

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you know, from the small districts up to the big counties. And,

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you know, for the most part I come across really good people

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who care deeply about what they're trying to

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do, the people they're trying to help in some way and

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serve. And so the poor practice

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that we see, I would say is not the norm,

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but it's often the thing that gets a big splash in the press and so

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then we think everyone's like that, and that's not been my experience.

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Obviously, you've done a lot of work with leadership and you talk about good local

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government. What is the role of leadership in creating good local

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government? It's like, in my experience, I've met quite a few leaders from local government

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and they're really impressive and have a very sophisticated approach.

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Yeah. So I think there's an number of aspects of what

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I perceive or what I think good leadership

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in local government is first and foremost it's about

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making sure that the elected members, the politicians,

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are able to do what they set out to do and to

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serve the residents and service users and communities.

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So enabling that to happen. So within that,

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having a really good relationship with politicians of all

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colours. So from both sides of the chamber, or multiple sides

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of the chamber, if it's more than one party, is really important,

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I think inspiring staff. You know,

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Danny, you rightly said, I mean, times have always been

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tough. I've really gotten to the crown recently, I am late to

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the game and it's been really. So we're in the 7th, we've been in the

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seventies and it's all about the strikes and there's been some reference to

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local government. And I thought, you know what? The more

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things change, the more they stay the same. Actually, it's the

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same old, same old, just a different decade. And so

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I think local government and public sector has always had

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a rough ride and sometimes been at odds with central government.

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So I don't think that's changed. But I do think the kind of

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climate we're all operating in now and that local authorities and NHS trusts

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and so on and so forth they're operating in, feels even more brutal.

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Because not only are you dealing with a tough economic environment,

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you've got climate change on top and it's constant

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scrutiny through these things. So,

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you know, everybody's a journalist now. Every little thing can

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be taken out of context that that innocuous comment

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that that councillor made at a cabinet, a kind of a council meeting,

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can suddenly blow up and become the thing that dominates

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your time as a chief executive, when actually you've got other bigger things

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that you need to focus on. So I

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think that the main, I think some of the best

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local government leaders, as in office aside, that I've

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seen, have kind of kept their nerve, kept their calm

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during really turbulent times and keep staff

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calm and politicians calm. So kind of

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keep that eye on the horizon, keep people focused on what we're trying

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to achieve, keep people inspired,

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but also not be a walkover. Sometimes you need to speak truth to power.

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And so some of the best kind of local government leaders

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I've seen haven't been afraid of having tough conversations, whether that's with

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a community leader, whether that's with a political leader,

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whether that's with a partnership organisation or maybe the borough

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commander of the local police service,

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they haven't kind of veered away from that.

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So it's a big ask, isn't it? It makes me think of Jed Bartlett in

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the West Wing, who I. Who was just my hero

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as a big ass, it feels like. Is that even possible

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to do all of that? Well, every single day.

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Danny's a love of west wing, aren't you?

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We've watched it three times now.

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I'm on two goes through. So that's it,

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I'm on zero, but it soon be one. After this conversation,

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you've got to watch it. Brilliant. So I'll put a link to

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the west wing in the show notes and if the

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producers could give us a cut of the proceeds. Yes, that would be

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great. Absolutely. Absolutely. So you've got a multifaceted

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career and obviously you've been heavily involved in

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organization development. What was your journey?

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Has it been linear, sort of thumbing through the career catalogue at

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the age of 15, going, right, that's it. I want to be organisation development.

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Like, what's been your journey today? So,

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nice question, nicely lined up, because you know what my answer is.

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So, no, not at all. So my. I did my undergraduate degree

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in the early nineties and I did history. I love

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history, still do. With a.

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With a minor in sociology and psychology. And so

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when I left in kind of 95, I, you know, my dream

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would have been to work someone like the Imperial War Museum or something like

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that, that didn't work out. I ended up being a catering manager somewhere just to

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earn the rent and did a series of jobs

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that paid the rent. That didn't really spark my fire.

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And I remember it was. It was like 97,

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and I got it into my head I wanted to work in an office because

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I wanted the glamour of wearing a suit,

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she says, sitting in her comfies.

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And so I had. I was in

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a catering role at the BBC and then a job came up, an office job

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came up in the BBC's conference centre. And so that was

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my first step into an office role. I felt

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like working girl. I felt like Melanie Griffiths. It was great

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and I loved that. And then after

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I'd been. I'd been in that role about a year and myself and a couple

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of the admin team got asked to support a team build.

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So it's a leadership team build for a department in the

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BBC. And they were. They were doing this three day team

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thing up in the Lake district. I mean, this is the nineties.

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It was when the BBC had more money than God. And so,

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I mean, I was, like, in my late twenties, staying in a

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really lucky. Well, what I thought was luxurious,

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luxurious hotel room in the Lake

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district, thinking. Anyway, the three

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days went on and myself and my colleagues, the two other admin

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people, did our part, made sure everything ran smoothly.

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And on the last night, we had a dinner and I got placed

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next to the head of the department. Big mistake.

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And I was two glasses of red wine in and he asked

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me, what do you think of how it's gone? And I told him I was

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very precocious. I told him I couldn't see what difference it had made.

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I couldn't see how the money had been spent,

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like the value. They all seemed to still not be getting on.

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Anyway, so I went, got the train home. I know

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this is very long story, but it's

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worth waiting for, so. Well, I think so.

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So I got the train and I got back and I said to my flatmate

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that night, I think I've lost my job. And she

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said, no, it can't be that bad. And I thought, yeah, yeah,

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yeah. Anyway, next morning I got called into my boss's office and

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I thought, oh, here we go. And my boss at that point, her main

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role was as the head of the psychology team, but she had been covering

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because our manager had gone. And so

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she called me into her office and I thought, oh, God. And she said,

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such and such was really impressed with you.

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We've had a little chat and he thinks you're a natural

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psychologist and thinks that you should move

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to my team and we'll do a bit of an apprenticeship and you're trained to

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become an occupational psychologist.

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And I remember sitting there going, sorry, what?

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And so this was in the days of ask Jeeves, Google didn't exist.

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So she said to me, go and find a postgraduate,

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because you need to get a postgraduate degree, because I

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wanted to do a history masters and I couldn't afford that. So I thought,

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oh, some brilliant. So I went and asked Jeeves, what is

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occupational psychology?

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And then, yeah, so then moved to that

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team. Loved it, learned the profession,

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and after about a year in that role, Greg Dyke took over as

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director general and kicked off at

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that point, what Harvard Business School called the world's

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biggest culture change program. In fact, it's probably

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still up there. And he brought in some experts in the field of

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organizational development, one of them being the wonderful and

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much missed doctor Mian Chung. Judge. And I underwent my training

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with her in all things OD. And myself,

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and I feel quite emotional saying it, and myself and

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some of my colleagues, she took us under her wing and, yeah,

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I didn't expect to get upset, but, yeah. Wow, what an

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apprenticeship. Yeah, yeah. You know, everything I know about

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OD I learned from her and I think it's for people that may be

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new to this is probably worth giving a bit of an introduction in terms

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of some of the work that she did and why she sort of steamed in

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organisation development. So what was she known for when she

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came in? And she. Well, what wasn't she known for? So her

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expertise in particular was around whole

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system change and within that, group dynamics and

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how to take groups along on the change journey

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and the skills that you need to be

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a really proficient organizational development practitioner. Everything from

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that speak truth to power to knowing when to

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hold the silence to the harder aspects around

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the analysis of data.

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And she was incredibly well known for her

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whole system thinking and in particular her

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approach to, as I say, the group dynamics aspects.

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And she was, you know, she had huge experience around

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that, you know, and was proficient in all sorts

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of techniques and approaches, which, again,

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you know, she, she taught all of us. She designed an OD program and

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put a number of us through our paces on that program and then we

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became part of a. A core group of OD

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consultants supporting this three year culture change program.

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So, yeah, doing everything from running the appreciative inquiry workshops to

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the analysis to then developing the action plan

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on the back of that. It was just incredible. And she just developed,

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she just demonstrated such expertise every step

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of the way. And all I kept thinking was, how can somebody

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be such an expert at all of this stuff? But she was.

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I'm really interested how she entered a system like the BBC, because the BBC

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is such an interesting organization, I think. Was it pretty

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unusual reference? But John Craven said the reason BBC tv center was a circle

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was so that the buck never stopped. Oh, I've never heard

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that, or I like that. How do you go into

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an organization like that that's so unique?

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This has a license fee, has all these different strands to it,

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and go about creating culture change. And how are you

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sort taken along on that journey? Yeah, so I think

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so. One of the things she talked to us

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about at length were the values of OD practitioners.

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So she drew on work of people like Warren Bennis

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and others, and that's always really stuck with me. So at the heart

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of really good OD is that

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dedication to democracy, that dedication to

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meaningful engagement, to get employee

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voice that, you know, that sense of integrity

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and not colluding with a system,

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particularly if that system is doing harm in some way. And so that

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was always really at the forefront of my mind, and that really came into its

17:34.399 --> 17:37.687
own. And she lived and breathed that, so she wasn't just espousing this stuff,

17:37.735 --> 17:41.297
she was kind of living and breathing that. And I think one of the first,

17:41.495 --> 17:44.554
there were two things that really struck me when I first met her,

17:45.454 --> 17:49.514
was, first of all, her comfort with silence.

17:49.814 --> 17:53.206
So being genuinely curious and asking people for

17:53.230 --> 17:56.422
their points of view and then not feeling the need to jump in,

17:56.558 --> 18:00.262
so kind of really holding the silence. I think the other

18:00.318 --> 18:03.646
thing was the power of sharing stories.

18:03.710 --> 18:07.462
She willingly shared stories, so her own experiences,

18:07.518 --> 18:10.582
which really brought to life some of the issues and concepts that we were

18:10.598 --> 18:14.682
struggling with. And, you know, it's been 25

18:14.738 --> 18:18.314
years on now almost, and that's the power

18:18.354 --> 18:22.414
of silence, the power of our stories,

18:22.794 --> 18:25.946
as a way of connecting. And that kind of

18:25.970 --> 18:29.786
sense of humility as well, has always

18:29.850 --> 18:33.826
really stuck with me. And something I've tried really hard to

18:33.850 --> 18:37.386
make sure I have at the heart of my own practice don't always get it

18:37.410 --> 18:40.654
right. But that's the human condition, isn't it?

18:41.634 --> 18:45.586
So, yeah, and she would hold a room like no one I've ever

18:45.730 --> 18:50.338
seen. And I think it was because you felt she was genuinely interested

18:50.506 --> 18:53.730
in what you had to say, what you had to contribute.

18:53.882 --> 18:58.450
And the final thing is, I think she created space for Greg.

18:58.602 --> 19:02.730
You know, I think as OD practitioners, it's not about us. Our role is to

19:02.762 --> 19:05.920
enable whoever the leader or leaders are

19:06.082 --> 19:10.124
to do what they need to do during whatever the change is.

19:10.284 --> 19:14.388
And so she worked alongside him, giving him wise

19:14.436 --> 19:18.140
counsel, challenging him as well, but giving

19:18.212 --> 19:21.660
him space to be who he needed to be,

19:21.772 --> 19:25.156
to take the organisation to where it needed to get to.

19:25.300 --> 19:28.668
So there's a lot to unpack there. But, yeah, that's. No, it's interesting. And I

19:28.676 --> 19:31.860
guess sort of testimony to the culture change was the sort of when Greg

19:31.892 --> 19:34.864
Dyke left and how everybody came out to.

19:35.404 --> 19:38.816
Was quite something I've been plucking. Yeah,

19:38.880 --> 19:42.136
I've never. What? And we all signed. We all signed. There's the

19:42.200 --> 19:45.840
very famous times advert that had

19:45.992 --> 19:49.320
hundreds, if not thousands of signatures

19:49.472 --> 19:52.896
from staff at all levels, from all departments,

19:53.000 --> 19:56.784
not just the program making departments. I've never seen anything like

19:56.824 --> 20:00.944
it in my life. And again, I think that the kind of

20:01.104 --> 20:05.082
academics in the field of OD and change in places like Harvard,

20:05.208 --> 20:08.598
I remember. I remember them commenting on the time going, have never

20:08.646 --> 20:12.750
seen anything like, have you ever seen thousands of

20:12.782 --> 20:16.206
staff unite and come out at the

20:16.230 --> 20:20.030
same time around the world? So you had the radio, tv stations around

20:20.062 --> 20:23.382
the world, staff coming out in time with those of

20:23.398 --> 20:26.834
us in the UK. Nobody had ever seen anything like that.

20:27.134 --> 20:30.206
And what was it? I can't leave this question unasked,

20:30.230 --> 20:34.214
but what was it about his leadership that created also,

20:34.254 --> 20:37.526
because this is in the time of, like, heroic leadership. So it wasn't necessarily of

20:37.550 --> 20:41.278
that mould at the time, though, was it? It was something different. Well, I see.

20:41.326 --> 20:44.462
I wouldn't. I wouldn't necessarily call him a heroic leader, but I would call him

20:44.478 --> 20:47.674
a maverick leader. And I talk about this with students,

20:48.254 --> 20:52.550
so he didn't get the balance right, I think,

20:52.742 --> 20:56.990
which was his downfall. So his focus was 100%

20:57.102 --> 21:00.506
on staff. That meant he

21:00.530 --> 21:04.210
wasn't paying as much attention, I feel, on the

21:04.242 --> 21:08.146
game of Thrones politics. So the kind of the

21:08.170 --> 21:11.658
board, the trust. And so there were all these

21:11.706 --> 21:15.330
machinations potentially going on behind the scenes with

21:15.362 --> 21:19.002
the then Labour government. And because

21:19.058 --> 21:23.334
he was so busy over here doing his travels,

21:23.874 --> 21:27.290
he committed to going to every part of the BBC,

21:27.402 --> 21:30.600
meeting with staff. I mean, he must have met with thousands.

21:30.712 --> 21:33.968
30,000. He must have met with thousands. He spent six

21:34.016 --> 21:37.776
months just going round. He even came to our little team. Nobody ever

21:37.800 --> 21:40.564
came to our little team. In fact, people tended to avoid us.

21:41.304 --> 21:44.504
He sat down with us and he's like, what's it? And he was asking one

21:44.544 --> 21:47.736
question of everybody, what's it like to work here? And he listened.

21:47.880 --> 21:51.040
And that was part of the data gathering as well, as well as the

21:51.072 --> 21:54.592
workshops that people like me, Anne, were running. And so staff

21:54.648 --> 21:58.792
fell in love with him. Nobody had ever asked us what

21:58.808 --> 22:02.480
could make it better. And so all his time was

22:02.512 --> 22:05.720
over here. And actually, to be a good leader, you've got to be able to

22:05.752 --> 22:09.096
balance both, otherwise it'll be that Julius

22:09.120 --> 22:12.632
Caesar moment. Yeah, but what a beautiful simplicity to

22:12.648 --> 22:17.164
a question to ask that doesn't cost anything to ask. And yet such engenders such

22:18.144 --> 22:21.632
loyalty, and that's something that can supply many organizations,

22:21.648 --> 22:24.872
isn't it? Well, particularly if you're seem to be doing something about it. I was

22:24.888 --> 22:27.552
going to say that's the key, isn't it? Is actually listening to what's said in

22:27.568 --> 22:31.542
response and doing something about it, that's what inspires the.

22:31.688 --> 22:35.410
The loyalty. Wow. So that's part

22:35.442 --> 22:38.802
one of your career. This is

22:38.818 --> 22:43.050
a great question. So you've been catapulted into OD

22:43.162 --> 22:47.658
by, you know, someone who is esteemed in the industry or in the practice

22:47.786 --> 22:51.426
as being, you know, one of sort of the leaders in the whole

22:51.450 --> 22:55.026
field. Where did you go from there? Then what happened next? I carried.

22:55.090 --> 22:58.704
So I did a mix of things, so got involved

22:58.824 --> 23:02.632
in work streams that had come out of the back of that initial culture

23:02.688 --> 23:05.784
work. So there was a massive work stream about leadership

23:05.824 --> 23:09.656
development, because leadership needed to improve. So I

23:09.680 --> 23:12.272
ended up working as part of that.

23:12.408 --> 23:15.864
So doing everything from 360 feedback

23:15.944 --> 23:19.544
for leaders, going on the leadership program with Ashridge, through to training

23:19.584 --> 23:22.976
as an executive coach for that program.

23:23.080 --> 23:26.404
But alongside that, I continued my day to day work as a.

23:26.544 --> 23:30.108
As an organizational psychologist. So doing kind of assessment

23:30.156 --> 23:33.668
centers, delivering training and development, doing. Doing mini culture

23:33.716 --> 23:37.184
reviews at kind of a more local level.

23:37.524 --> 23:40.916
But it's a very flat structure. And, you know, I had ambitions,

23:41.020 --> 23:43.864
and it was such a flat structure.

23:44.244 --> 23:47.704
Unless the head of psychology was going to die,

23:48.164 --> 23:51.332
there was just nowhere to go. And so I ended up going on second to

23:51.348 --> 23:55.558
a different part of the BBC, to rights and business affairs.

23:55.676 --> 23:59.418
I loved that. So they're the people that do all the licensing, the copyright,

23:59.466 --> 24:03.034
they engage with the artists and all that stuff. I love

24:03.074 --> 24:06.434
that. It was a year, and I ended up working on their culture change program.

24:06.514 --> 24:09.770
They had a bit. So Greg had gone at that point, and Mark Thompson had

24:09.802 --> 24:14.746
come in, and there was a big financial crisis, and everybody

24:14.770 --> 24:18.474
was tasked with finding their pound of flesh and rights and business

24:18.514 --> 24:21.642
affairs had a big amount to find, which was going to affect quite a lot

24:21.658 --> 24:25.388
of staff. And so I worked really closely with the leadership

24:25.476 --> 24:28.836
to develop the change strategy and in particular the

24:28.900 --> 24:32.132
change communication and engagement approach. But that was a

24:32.148 --> 24:35.580
secondment. I was recovering maternity leave, and I didn't want to go back.

24:35.772 --> 24:39.260
And then an opportunity came up. So I

24:39.332 --> 24:42.388
had moved back to Croydon, and at that point, I always call it the two

24:42.436 --> 24:45.988
towers. Like in Lord of the Rings, you had a nestle building and

24:46.036 --> 24:49.464
the old tab and a house, and it was. It was like the two towers,

24:49.964 --> 24:53.482
and they were the two biggest employers. And I always thought if

24:53.498 --> 24:57.466
a job comes up at one of those places, and sure enough, Croydon council brought

24:57.490 --> 25:00.986
in a new HR director, Pam, who basically

25:01.050 --> 25:04.834
root and branch decimated the old personnel, which had been

25:04.994 --> 25:08.938
departmental based, and she centralized and

25:09.066 --> 25:12.674
within that she created. So she had the traditional HR, HR,

25:12.714 --> 25:16.214
business partners and all that, but she created a new function called OD.

25:16.554 --> 25:19.748
I got the job, and so I had to set up an OD

25:19.796 --> 25:23.284
function from scratch and loved it. Yeah,

25:23.444 --> 25:26.788
I had to slowly build my team, had to educate the organization

25:26.916 --> 25:30.428
on what OD is and what it isn't, what they thought it was,

25:30.476 --> 25:34.372
was not what it was. And then, yeah, developed a three year od strategy,

25:34.428 --> 25:38.384
and with my team, executed that, and I loved it and then

25:39.124 --> 25:42.516
achieved some massive things with my team. So we won awards for the

25:42.540 --> 25:46.002
leadership program we designed and implemented because it was

25:46.018 --> 25:50.074
the first leadership program of its kind that took a total place.

25:50.234 --> 25:54.690
So we opened it up to not just local authority staff,

25:54.842 --> 25:58.586
others. You know, we needed to think about leadership of place.

25:58.770 --> 26:01.934
So it was open to, like, head teachers and stuff like that.

26:02.554 --> 26:06.002
And politicians. We wanted politicians to be

26:06.018 --> 26:08.694
on it as well, which wasn't always easy.

26:09.114 --> 26:13.494
And then I started to get headhunted internally. So the director of transformation,

26:13.974 --> 26:17.270
who I was coaching, said, I've got a second comment coming up, and I

26:17.302 --> 26:20.694
don't want an it person, a traditional it person in that post.

26:20.814 --> 26:24.086
I want someone like you with that OD mindset

26:24.230 --> 26:27.966
to do some strategy work. And I was a bit like, okay, give it a

26:27.990 --> 26:31.806
go. I went on second, and that was, that taught me a lot because I

26:31.830 --> 26:35.622
learned about commercial negotiation. I was managing the relationship with

26:35.638 --> 26:39.154
the outsourced it provider. I mean, that was like a 300 million

26:39.334 --> 26:43.414
contract, and it was a very difficult contract,

26:43.874 --> 26:45.854
but I had to turn that relationship around.

26:46.914 --> 26:50.186
I developed the five year transformation

26:50.250 --> 26:53.850
strategy, but used an OD approach that was very much about that

26:53.882 --> 26:57.562
participation, democracy. And so people felt like the transformation

26:57.618 --> 27:00.746
strategy was theirs, the technology strategy was theirs.

27:00.850 --> 27:04.402
And so they had skin in the game on that. And we won some awards

27:04.458 --> 27:08.266
for our work on that. And then I got headhunted again because

27:08.290 --> 27:11.374
that was a second. You can see a theme here, can't you?

27:11.834 --> 27:15.306
And the director of customer services said, I really like what you've done over there

27:15.410 --> 27:18.586
in transit. Can you come and do that here? And, yeah,

27:18.730 --> 27:22.050
that was tough at first. So I took on a team. I became head of

27:22.082 --> 27:26.210
customer strategy. And so I was responsible for developing the five year customer service strategy.

27:26.242 --> 27:29.706
I was responsible for complaints, which we

27:29.730 --> 27:33.806
were in a really bad place. We were in the press for

27:33.830 --> 27:37.754
our response to our really poor response time and our attitude to complaints.

27:39.054 --> 27:42.434
I was responsible for customer service training across the whole organization.

27:43.454 --> 27:47.182
But I created that team. I built that team. I restructured it and

27:47.198 --> 27:51.438
then rebuilt it and loved it to the point where

27:51.566 --> 27:55.382
we turned around stuff so much. And we

27:55.398 --> 27:59.278
became one of the best in the country for our complaints. But the then

27:59.326 --> 28:02.698
chief exec gifted me freedom of information.

28:02.826 --> 28:06.578
He was like, please have freedom of information, because we were on the

28:06.586 --> 28:09.402
front page of daily mail and stuff like that, because we were one of the

28:09.418 --> 28:12.094
worst in the country. And you get big fines.

28:12.594 --> 28:15.986
So, yeah, so I took on freedom of information and data protection and

28:16.090 --> 28:19.730
worked with my team to put in place a new process and a system and

28:19.762 --> 28:23.514
turn that around as well. And then we're coming to the end,

28:23.554 --> 28:26.706
listeners. My role got merged with the head of

28:26.730 --> 28:30.322
communications role. So the head of comms had left. He'd moved on

28:30.338 --> 28:33.454
to a different job. And the chief executive, my boss,

28:33.834 --> 28:37.226
were thinking, actually, sometimes Hayley's area has bumped into

28:37.290 --> 28:39.962
comms, so does it just make sense to merge it? And so I had to

28:39.978 --> 28:43.506
go for that because my role was redundant and that was brutal.

28:43.650 --> 28:47.130
That was when things came to a head. Because I then started to move so

28:47.202 --> 28:51.818
far from my original love and home of occupational

28:51.906 --> 28:55.522
psychology and development, I felt completely out

28:55.538 --> 28:59.134
of my depth. And so that was a real trial by fire.

28:59.464 --> 29:03.392
I had half of my service who I'd inherited, so I

29:03.408 --> 29:06.936
had my original service. And then I had this other service, like from

29:06.960 --> 29:10.512
PR and media, who wrote a letter to my boss saying, she shouldn't

29:10.528 --> 29:13.816
get the job. She doesn't have a background as a journalist or PR.

29:14.000 --> 29:17.960
Nice. So that was what I was going into alongside

29:18.072 --> 29:21.408
I was being written about. So the media started targeting me.

29:21.536 --> 29:25.536
Who is this woman? She's a psychologist. She's going to psychoanalyze

29:25.680 --> 29:29.488
the residents and manipulate you. And, yeah, that was brutal.

29:29.536 --> 29:34.016
I remember. I remember it was Christmas holidays and I got a text from

29:34.120 --> 29:37.336
one of the media team saying, I'm really sorry to send this to you.

29:37.360 --> 29:40.544
I think it was boxing Day. I remember what I was watching. It was great

29:40.584 --> 29:44.112
expectations with Gillian Anderson. That's how much it's imprinted in

29:44.128 --> 29:48.200
my brain. And this, I got this alert on my work phone

29:48.392 --> 29:51.272
and it was one of the media teams saying, I'm really sorry, and sent me

29:51.288 --> 29:54.532
a link. And it was this absolutely trash

29:54.588 --> 29:57.948
piece on me. It was awful.

29:58.036 --> 30:01.900
And I'd never experienced, you know, just little old me. I do psychology and OD.

30:01.972 --> 30:05.172
And my husband looked at me, he said, are you okay? Because I'd

30:05.228 --> 30:08.588
literally, I'd gone so pale. And I ran upstairs and vomited

30:08.756 --> 30:11.844
in the toilet because it was just the shock of it. And I thought,

30:11.884 --> 30:15.660
what have I done? And so, yeah, so the first year of

30:15.692 --> 30:19.404
that role was hard, completely unforgiving. And I was

30:19.444 --> 30:22.584
right in the middle of the politicians as well, who are brutal.

30:23.944 --> 30:27.552
It can be brutal. And then I came out

30:27.568 --> 30:30.312
of that first year and started to come out the other side and we had

30:30.328 --> 30:32.832
a number of crises that we had to deal with. And I'm pretty good in

30:32.848 --> 30:36.440
a crisis and so that's when I turned the ship around, both in terms

30:36.472 --> 30:39.880
of my reputation but also my teams. And the irony

30:39.952 --> 30:42.888
is that was the role I had the longest in local government. I was in

30:42.896 --> 30:46.992
that role four years. And so then I left to

30:47.008 --> 30:50.512
set up on my own and I had to do a

30:50.528 --> 30:54.096
Madonna again. I had to reinvent because people had forgotten that

30:54.120 --> 30:57.464
I'd started out all those years ago as a psychologist specializing in

30:57.504 --> 31:01.608
Od. They thought I was a comms expert. And so when I set up Halo,

31:01.776 --> 31:04.656
I was getting lots of people reaching out, going, could you help us with our

31:04.680 --> 31:08.404
comms strategy? Could you do this? And I was like, no, I don't want no.

31:08.744 --> 31:12.368
And so my first six to twelve months of Halo

31:12.416 --> 31:15.884
was me having to revamp who I was,

31:16.254 --> 31:19.758
completely reinvent what people knew me as,

31:19.846 --> 31:21.874
and also remind people.

31:23.294 --> 31:26.934
So I still do a lot of work for comms teams in local government now,

31:27.094 --> 31:30.022
but they know that I'm coming in there as a psychologist. I'm doing work with

31:30.038 --> 31:33.422
them on resilience and stuff like that. So I'm conscious. I've talked

31:33.438 --> 31:36.958
for about 300. No, no. Well done. We've been there.

31:36.966 --> 31:40.334
We're building up a list of questions here, actually, because it's fascinating. You'll be tested

31:40.374 --> 31:44.494
later. Yeah. When you were listening, did you, one of the questions

31:44.574 --> 31:48.310
I was wondering there is, do you have a playbook for

31:48.342 --> 31:52.174
getting started? Because that seems to be a recurring theme, doesn't it? Which is taking

31:52.214 --> 31:55.742
on an OD. Nothing exists. How do you create it?

31:55.878 --> 31:59.774
How do you get consent from everyone you work with, taking on

31:59.854 --> 32:03.566
the customer services role and bottoming it out

32:03.670 --> 32:06.694
and getting to the point where you can move things forward.

32:06.854 --> 32:10.550
The strategy piece was something you hadn't done before in a field that was new

32:10.582 --> 32:13.274
to you, that has a traditional way of working.

32:13.754 --> 32:16.242
Do you, do you have a sort of a playbook or is it like sort

32:16.258 --> 32:19.874
of principles that you apply to begin something difficult?

32:19.994 --> 32:23.882
Great question. So I think. I think in

32:23.898 --> 32:27.202
terms of my playbook, it's being

32:27.258 --> 32:30.794
okay with not being the expert at all things.

32:30.954 --> 32:34.434
And that goes back to that humility I talked about that. I kind of saw

32:34.474 --> 32:37.970
him in Mian. And actually,

32:38.042 --> 32:41.634
the higher you go, you can't. And the bigger your team becomes.

32:41.674 --> 32:44.964
I mean, when I was head of comms, I had, I have 50 p,

32:45.004 --> 32:48.772
I have 50 people across five teams for

32:48.788 --> 32:52.380
a multi million pound budget. I can't be an expert in every little thing.

32:52.572 --> 32:55.524
You know, I'm not a web designer. I don't know how to do coding.

32:55.564 --> 32:59.180
I'm not I'm not a kind of a journalist, and so,

32:59.292 --> 33:02.820
but what I can do is I can set direction. What I can

33:02.892 --> 33:06.036
do is look after my team. What I can

33:06.100 --> 33:09.436
do is protect them from the ship that comes in

33:09.460 --> 33:12.894
from all angles. But it starts

33:12.934 --> 33:16.206
with kind of making it clear, I think, to people,

33:16.310 --> 33:18.718
this is what I'm good at, and this is what I bring to the table.

33:18.766 --> 33:22.126
But I also recognize I've got some gaps, and that's where

33:22.150 --> 33:25.326
I see you come in. So I think

33:25.430 --> 33:29.794
recognizing and owning what strengths you have, but also what your gaps are,

33:30.654 --> 33:33.782
one of the things that I found really helpful, particularly the it

33:33.878 --> 33:36.934
role, because I remember my first month

33:36.974 --> 33:40.468
in that role, uh, it's like people talking binary

33:40.516 --> 33:43.988
code. It's like people zero 10. I felt like I

33:43.996 --> 33:45.624
was going into meetings, just going.

33:47.964 --> 33:51.140
And so one of the things that I did in that role and then that

33:51.172 --> 33:54.844
stood me in really good stead. And it's something that many of my

33:54.884 --> 33:58.092
coaching clients who've gone into roles they haven't got a clue about have found

33:58.148 --> 34:01.676
helpful is, um. So Richard Feynman,

34:01.780 --> 34:04.812
the, the Nobel Prize winning physicist,

34:04.948 --> 34:08.344
he famously kept a book called things I don't know.

34:08.814 --> 34:12.326
Whenever he heard about something he didn't know, he'd write it

34:12.350 --> 34:15.254
down, make a note of it, and then he endeavored to find out about it,

34:15.294 --> 34:18.278
speak to people about it, and then once he felt he knew about it,

34:18.286 --> 34:20.990
he could cross it off. I loved that. And so I had my own version

34:21.022 --> 34:24.246
in an Excel spreadsheet, because I love an Excel spreadsheet. And so in

34:24.270 --> 34:27.974
this it role, every time I heard a phrase and I didn't

34:28.014 --> 34:31.254
yet feel comfortable enough to lean in and go, could you tell me what that

34:31.294 --> 34:33.938
is? I'd make a note of it,

34:34.086 --> 34:37.682
and then I'd go and find somebody who

34:37.698 --> 34:41.154
could explain it to me. And so kind of that

34:41.194 --> 34:44.522
stood me in really good stead ever since. And as I say,

34:44.578 --> 34:47.826
some of my clients have benefited

34:47.890 --> 34:52.034
from that. And then I think the final thing in terms of the playbook

34:52.194 --> 34:55.610
is having a bit of a plan. So you'll both

34:55.642 --> 34:58.434
be familiar with the concept of the first 90 days. You know,

34:58.474 --> 35:02.182
we know that your first few months is when you make

35:02.198 --> 35:05.678
the biggest impact, and it's often when things are a little bit more forgiving.

35:05.846 --> 35:09.126
And so what is it you want to achieve? What is it you really want

35:09.150 --> 35:11.674
to achieve in your first week, your first month?

35:12.974 --> 35:16.502
And so I've always kind of had a plan, either in my mind

35:16.598 --> 35:20.166
or tends to be written down. You know, relationships I

35:20.190 --> 35:23.794
want to build in week one processes. I want to understand

35:24.894 --> 35:27.914
things I need to read. Yeah.

35:27.954 --> 35:31.794
So kind of setting myself little tasks, and then

35:31.834 --> 35:34.954
this is what the outcome I want to achieve. So I want to have done

35:34.994 --> 35:38.586
this by this point. Yeah,

35:38.690 --> 35:42.330
that's roughly my playbook. Great. And then just. Just one

35:42.362 --> 35:46.574
element there as well, because there's kind of not knowing and humility,

35:46.994 --> 35:50.578
but it's not self effacing. There's definitely massive amounts of self

35:50.626 --> 35:53.374
efficacy believing that you can make a difference.

35:54.464 --> 35:57.336
It's quite an interplay there, isn't it, in terms of. Because,

35:57.480 --> 36:00.856
oh, my God, I'm overwhelmed and I'm getting the press. Couldn't be. But there's

36:00.880 --> 36:04.632
definitely an inner confidence there blaming. Look, just give me time. I can make

36:04.648 --> 36:07.968
a big difference here. Yeah. And that's such a powerful

36:08.016 --> 36:11.376
point because I think in most of

36:11.400 --> 36:14.512
the roles that I've gone into. Yeah.

36:14.648 --> 36:17.720
I've kind of tapped into self efficacy. That kind of.

36:17.912 --> 36:21.424
Okay, you've done this before, Hayley. You can do it again. You've been in unfamiliar

36:21.464 --> 36:25.016
situations. But I lost sight of that in that head of comms role for

36:25.040 --> 36:29.752
that first year. I just lost my voice and

36:29.768 --> 36:33.336
became a shadow of myself. I mean, I talk about whenever I do work on

36:33.400 --> 36:35.604
resilience and burnout and well being,

36:36.944 --> 36:40.344
I always share my own story. Again, the power of sharing

36:40.384 --> 36:44.312
our stories. And I talk about basically having a

36:44.328 --> 36:48.200
breakdown. In my first year, I was vomiting each morning before

36:48.272 --> 36:51.348
work. I was existing on three to four hour sleeps.

36:51.396 --> 36:54.980
I was getting up at five to get into work for six, I was

36:55.012 --> 36:58.380
working till kind of midnight just to keep on

36:58.412 --> 37:02.468
top of everything. And it was quite a macho environment

37:02.596 --> 37:05.740
I was in. And people said, oh, it's okay

37:05.772 --> 37:09.740
to ask for help or admit you don't know. That's bullshit.

37:09.892 --> 37:13.492
No. And so I became more

37:13.508 --> 37:17.328
and more insular and lost my voice and forgotten that

37:17.496 --> 37:21.000
I'd done hard things before and I could do them again. And it was

37:21.032 --> 37:24.688
only through the intervention of two really good work friends

37:24.776 --> 37:28.984
who I remain indebted to for the rest of my life, who intervened

37:29.024 --> 37:32.200
with my boss because my boss was on at me. And it just became this

37:32.232 --> 37:35.856
vicious circle where I was underperforming, going quieter and

37:35.880 --> 37:39.160
quieter, retreating into myself. He was on at me because I wasn't

37:39.192 --> 37:41.844
delivering, because he was getting it in the neck from politicians.

37:42.244 --> 37:45.796
And two of my colleagues on the leadership team we were part of apparently took

37:45.820 --> 37:48.876
him to one side and said, have you not noticed that Hayley's

37:48.900 --> 37:51.384
not speaking in meetings? And she just.

37:52.044 --> 37:55.428
She looks ill, she's pale. Have you not noticed that?

37:55.556 --> 37:59.300
And that was like a wake up call

37:59.452 --> 38:03.084
for him. And to be fair to him, he wasn't an easy person to work

38:03.124 --> 38:07.184
with, but he was incredibly fair and he would own his mistakes.

38:07.524 --> 38:10.892
And he instantly leaned in and said, what help do

38:10.908 --> 38:14.586
you need? What do you need from me? So we started to

38:14.610 --> 38:16.854
work differently. I got a coach,

38:17.674 --> 38:21.690
basically. I had support wrapped around me, and slowly

38:21.722 --> 38:25.114
but surely, the Hayley of old started to come back, but almost like a Hayley

38:25.154 --> 38:28.978
2.0. And I often get asked whenever

38:29.026 --> 38:32.094
I'm kind of talking at events or when I'm talking to students.

38:32.594 --> 38:36.106
If you could go back, would you say no to that role? Would you

38:36.130 --> 38:38.676
do things differently? Would you stay at the BBC?

38:38.850 --> 38:42.404
No. Because the person sat here in front of you with all these stories,

38:42.784 --> 38:46.576
with this alleged expertise, and it's because of

38:46.600 --> 38:50.176
all of that. And the reason I

38:50.200 --> 38:54.264
feel really privileged and lucky to have so many coaching

38:54.304 --> 38:57.800
clients is because lots of them say that they

38:57.912 --> 39:01.056
feel, I get it. I'm not spouting a load of theory at

39:01.080 --> 39:03.992
them. Not that a coach does that, but you know what I mean.

39:04.168 --> 39:07.616
I've sat in their shoes. I know how it feels when

39:07.640 --> 39:10.964
you're under the cost from everybody. You can't do right for doing wrong.

39:11.824 --> 39:15.376
You're struggling at work, you're struggling at home. I've lived

39:15.400 --> 39:18.840
and breathed it, and I think it's made me a better, more compassionate,

39:18.992 --> 39:22.448
more effective practitioner and coach

39:22.576 --> 39:25.684
and just to sort of take that learning,

39:26.544 --> 39:29.656
if you're driving change, it can be a really lonely place.

39:29.720 --> 39:33.064
You become the lightning rod for so many things,

39:33.104 --> 39:36.912
and there's so much things emotion projected onto you. I think Steve hears

39:36.928 --> 39:41.214
some, describes it as the node through which the crazy flows.

39:46.154 --> 39:49.214
And we often sort of find leaders in this place,

39:49.634 --> 39:52.826
and not everyone has two work colleagues that can help them

39:52.850 --> 39:56.414
come back. What advice would you help people to

39:57.074 --> 40:00.298
start taking those steps back to being themselves again,

40:00.346 --> 40:03.762
to help them get through or to feel resourced? Yeah. So I

40:03.778 --> 40:07.596
think. I think it's hard to do it on your own. And if

40:07.620 --> 40:10.924
you don't have colleagues who know

40:10.964 --> 40:14.452
you well enough to see the monumental change and

40:14.468 --> 40:18.044
that you need help, then think about who can fill that

40:18.084 --> 40:22.300
gap. But, you know, what's your network like? Are you part of a

40:22.412 --> 40:25.900
professional network, for example, of change experts?

40:26.052 --> 40:28.820
And have you got a good relationship with some of those? Could you talk to

40:28.852 --> 40:32.454
them? I spoke on another podcast recently,

40:32.754 --> 40:36.746
and we were talking about guilt and shame are often the things that hold us

40:36.770 --> 40:40.094
back and mean we

40:40.474 --> 40:44.298
don't admit. Maybe when we're struggling, but there's nothing to be guilty

40:44.386 --> 40:47.994
or ashamed of. We all struggle at various points and the way

40:48.034 --> 40:51.570
we can kind of disrupt that is by just saying it to

40:51.602 --> 40:55.058
someone that we trust, whether it's a colleague in our organization

40:55.146 --> 40:58.654
or if I'm a consultant going in, whether it's a.

40:59.384 --> 41:02.736
A kind of a peer that I've got a good relationship with or

41:02.760 --> 41:06.792
even a friend. But actually saying it

41:06.808 --> 41:10.536
out loud, you know what I'm really struggling with? This almost takes

41:10.560 --> 41:13.776
the power out of that because otherwise it just becomes this demon

41:13.840 --> 41:17.304
that eats away at you. So externalizing

41:17.344 --> 41:21.240
that stuff in some way is really important whilst keeping yourself safe.

41:21.272 --> 41:24.704
You know, there's certain sectors again, very macho.

41:24.824 --> 41:27.616
It's all about, you know, how things look. So again,

41:27.720 --> 41:31.824
I'm realistically enough to know you've got to be savvy about

41:31.984 --> 41:35.488
who you open up to but hopefully there will be at least one

41:35.536 --> 41:39.160
person you could. Yeah. I was also thinking that the power of telling your

41:39.192 --> 41:41.984
story, as you said, is really important, isn't it? Because when we look at successful

41:42.024 --> 41:45.528
people or people who've succeeded it's really easy to present a very

41:45.576 --> 41:48.792
linear version of their success and how they got there and they miss out all

41:48.808 --> 41:51.872
the kind of the dips and the challenges and the

41:51.888 --> 41:54.176
hard bits and then people think well somebody's gone from a to b and they've

41:54.200 --> 41:58.026
made it look easy. Then if my path's not like that then

41:58.050 --> 42:01.370
I'm doing something wrong or I've got this wrong. It's why one of the.

42:01.402 --> 42:04.746
It's one of the reasons why with those

42:04.810 --> 42:08.066
new into the field of occupational psychology, those doing their

42:08.090 --> 42:11.786
MSc for example, I openly share. I failed

42:11.810 --> 42:15.538
my dissertation for my MSc and I realized my

42:15.586 --> 42:18.722
age. The experience where I am now in

42:18.738 --> 42:22.818
my career enables me to share that story. But also

42:22.986 --> 42:26.786
I see it as my duty as an alleged. I don't say

42:26.810 --> 42:30.130
this about myself but somebody called me the other day a wise elder, lesser the

42:30.162 --> 42:33.850
elder. But I see that as those

42:33.882 --> 42:37.426
of us who are further ahead in our lives and our

42:37.450 --> 42:41.250
careers I see it as our duty to share some of that stuff to

42:41.282 --> 42:45.266
again, to take the stigma out of it and because

42:45.370 --> 42:47.962
I mean it's all very nice and I'd be lying if I said it's not

42:47.978 --> 42:51.730
a nice ego stroke when people are telling you how blooming

42:51.762 --> 42:54.932
wonderful you are and God, it's amazing where you've got to.

42:54.988 --> 42:58.252
And so the reason I also share the story is to give myself a reality

42:58.308 --> 43:01.788
check. But when I get students who are just like, I can never

43:01.836 --> 43:05.460
get there. And they're comparing where they are now with where you

43:05.492 --> 43:08.740
are now. And as you rightly say, Danny, they're not

43:08.772 --> 43:12.676
seeing the 2025 years of ups and downs

43:12.700 --> 43:16.292
and pains and sacrifice. And so,

43:16.308 --> 43:19.900
yes, that's one of the reasons why I share stories like that. There's no shame

43:19.932 --> 43:23.108
in it. The shame is if you don't learn from it. I had another

43:23.156 --> 43:26.364
question about change. So when you were talking about your career history, you talked about

43:26.404 --> 43:30.156
developing strategies and the kind of importance of participation and democracy and

43:30.260 --> 43:33.224
really helping people feel a sense of ownership of strategies.

43:34.044 --> 43:37.724
Why are we still getting that wrong? Why are so many organizations still not

43:37.844 --> 43:41.300
cracking that? So I'm probably going to make lots

43:41.332 --> 43:44.664
of enemies now. The word that pops it. Laziness.

43:45.374 --> 43:49.214
Okay. I also think sometimes not enough time is allowed.

43:49.334 --> 43:53.038
So the laziness bit is, oh, it's easier, isn't it? It's easier.

43:53.086 --> 43:56.638
Just. Just go in a. Just work from home or go in a room somewhere

43:56.686 --> 44:00.110
and do a bit of desktop analysis and, yeah, just write the strategy.

44:00.182 --> 44:03.286
And then we wonder why that strategy lies in a darkened room

44:03.310 --> 44:07.734
somewhere, you know, and it gets signed off, but nothing ever happens.

44:07.854 --> 44:11.710
And it is hard work. You know, if I think about the technology

44:11.782 --> 44:16.062
and transformation strategy, that took a lot of planning, and I ran

44:16.158 --> 44:19.542
with my team 15 workshops.

44:19.678 --> 44:23.406
So we were. So there were. At that point, there were eight departments

44:23.430 --> 44:27.014
in the local authority just doing that because I'm seeing the structure in my head.

44:27.094 --> 44:31.038
There were eight departments. And so we

44:31.086 --> 44:34.678
ran two workshops for seven

44:34.726 --> 44:37.856
of them and one for one of the smaller ones, and we were

44:37.880 --> 44:41.136
cross cutting, so we were

44:41.160 --> 44:44.456
having a mix of staff in each of those workshops. So from the

44:44.480 --> 44:46.724
most senior through to the most junior,

44:47.184 --> 44:50.696
and took an OD approach. So did

44:50.720 --> 44:54.104
some really interesting activities to get people thinking about the now

44:54.184 --> 44:57.136
compared to the future and doing a gap analysis. Oh, it's great. It was just

44:57.160 --> 45:00.656
like, we have pictures everywhere and brown paper. It was. It was

45:00.680 --> 45:03.088
great. And so. But that was a lot of work. And then there was a

45:03.096 --> 45:07.026
lot of data to analyze. But it's why when

45:07.050 --> 45:10.994
the rubber hit the road, it hit the road really quickly. So the chief exec

45:11.074 --> 45:14.570
said he'd never. So the strategy went to the leadership

45:14.602 --> 45:17.626
team first, and then it had to be ratified by the politicians at

45:17.650 --> 45:21.250
cabinet. He said he'd never seen the strategy get through that process so

45:21.282 --> 45:25.586
quickly. There was usually, like a lot about sometimes 16

45:25.730 --> 45:29.802
iterations. Not with this one. Got signed off straight away by

45:29.818 --> 45:33.876
the leadership team, went straight through to cabinet, got signed off straight away.

45:34.020 --> 45:37.764
And so we were able to hit the road and people were already bought

45:37.804 --> 45:41.868
in. We weren't having to do a massive education piece because

45:42.036 --> 45:45.424
they knew what was in the strategy, because it was their strategy.

45:45.724 --> 45:49.532
But that takes effort. I mean, from end to end, that took six months.

45:49.668 --> 45:53.284
And so then the time thing comes in. If we haven't factored in enough time,

45:53.324 --> 45:56.484
if we haven't honoured and respected that

45:56.524 --> 45:59.660
good strategy development, meaningful strategy development,

45:59.812 --> 46:02.682
to have a strategy that's going to make a difference takes time.

46:02.818 --> 46:05.882
We've left it to the last minute, then we are going to hurry it and

46:05.898 --> 46:08.962
just leave it to some poor person to do on their own.

46:09.138 --> 46:12.554
Sometimes leaving it to the last minute is a tactic in itself, though, isn't it?

46:12.634 --> 46:16.226
Not leaving ourselves the time to do it properly. We don't have

46:16.250 --> 46:19.642
time and we've got a legal. We've got a legal responsibility to get this straight.

46:19.738 --> 46:22.858
Yeah, just nonsense. I become much

46:22.906 --> 46:26.602
more unforgiving as I've got older. It's the time and energy you then have

46:26.618 --> 46:30.136
to invest afterwards, when you've got, you know, you know, you have

46:30.160 --> 46:33.688
to find the time and the energy somewhere. I feel it's always better to front

46:33.736 --> 46:37.776
load that. Absolutely. Because when you start to roll out work streams

46:37.800 --> 46:41.736
or initiatives, it's almost like the bulk of the work's already been

46:41.760 --> 46:45.624
done. When you go to children's services or whatever departments are relevant

46:45.664 --> 46:48.528
in your organization, they're like, oh, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah,

46:48.616 --> 46:52.672
yeah. Whereas if you haven't done that, you're met with crossed arms and

46:52.688 --> 46:56.144
you're having to kind of start from the very beginning about why

46:56.184 --> 46:59.102
you've suggested this thing and before you know it again,

46:59.158 --> 47:02.478
you've lost another six months. Yeah. You talk about,

47:02.566 --> 47:05.994
you did a keynote recently about navigating change in a positive way.

47:06.694 --> 47:10.358
And what's really nice is you kind of pulled out because sometimes with the field

47:10.406 --> 47:14.182
need to bring out the most modern, fresh theory. And you talked about

47:14.198 --> 47:17.310
William Bridges, for example, about sort of allowing people to

47:17.342 --> 47:20.886
let go and then that kind of that neutral zone that we

47:20.910 --> 47:24.470
live in, in organizations where we're kind of, the change hasn't started yet, but we're

47:24.502 --> 47:28.424
all discombobulated and kind of waiting for it. And then the

47:28.464 --> 47:31.880
new beginning. Like, is it possible in our

47:31.992 --> 47:35.328
organizations where there's just this feeling of continuous change

47:35.416 --> 47:38.744
and too many priorities and, you know,

47:38.904 --> 47:42.400
conflicting needs to navigate change in a positive way?

47:42.552 --> 47:44.920
I think it is. I think it is possible. I mean, the thing at the

47:44.952 --> 47:48.208
heart of my talk last week, and I wrote

47:48.216 --> 47:50.934
a blog post about it, which goes out in my newsletter in a minute,

47:51.104 --> 47:54.570
is think about what you can control. And also, it's not

47:54.602 --> 47:57.774
just necessarily workplace changes that you're navigating.

47:58.114 --> 48:01.746
You might have changes going on at home. You might suddenly have an elderly parent

48:01.770 --> 48:05.074
who's been diagnosed with dementia. And that's a massive change to deal with, let alone

48:05.194 --> 48:08.802
your job's being restructured. And so we're more than the changes than

48:08.818 --> 48:12.614
we're facing at work. And so facing all of that,

48:12.994 --> 48:16.334
it's about thinking what is in your control. And so,

48:17.334 --> 48:21.822
so there's a couple of well known frameworks.

48:21.878 --> 48:25.678
So I talked about a circle of control. More fundamentally

48:25.726 --> 48:29.358
than that, I talked about the ABC technique as a

48:29.366 --> 48:32.074
way of reframing how we explain things to ourselves.

48:33.334 --> 48:37.230
But the essence within all of that is focusing on

48:37.262 --> 48:40.830
what is in your gift. Because at our energy, and our

48:40.862 --> 48:44.398
energy is limited, our time is limited in this

48:44.446 --> 48:47.786
ever, you know, hyper connected, always on,

48:47.930 --> 48:51.174
well, constant change. And so

48:51.514 --> 48:54.762
where we put our energy matters, but we need to give. We need to

48:54.778 --> 48:58.178
pay attention to that. Am I getting angry about

48:58.226 --> 49:02.410
and putting all my energy into conversations

49:02.482 --> 49:06.106
that may or may not have happened by leadership and, you know,

49:06.210 --> 49:09.082
talking in darkened corners about what they did wrong?

49:09.138 --> 49:12.306
And la, la, la, that's not in my control. I mean, it's a bit

49:12.330 --> 49:15.508
cathartic. What is in my control is,

49:15.556 --> 49:19.556
okay, my job's been affected. Do I have the skills

49:19.580 --> 49:22.732
that are needed? What support might I need? Do I need to go on

49:22.748 --> 49:26.236
a course? Do I need to reach out to my network?

49:26.340 --> 49:29.212
Because actually, I might need to think about getting a job elsewhere because I don't

49:29.228 --> 49:33.196
want to work in this organization anymore. So, yeah, so, kind of bringing it

49:33.220 --> 49:37.796
back to you and I talk a lot about siphoning

49:37.820 --> 49:40.936
out a lot of the noise that can go on.

49:41.120 --> 49:45.176
I know I've been as guilty of it as the rest. There's something quite

49:45.240 --> 49:49.256
nice about being around the water cooler and slagging people off and always

49:49.360 --> 49:53.336
terrible. But if that goes on for too long,

49:53.440 --> 49:56.640
that just can become unhealthy. We can start

49:56.672 --> 49:59.672
to feel out of control. We can start to feel done,

49:59.728 --> 50:04.080
too. And so stepping

50:04.112 --> 50:08.088
away from that noise, stepping away from that anger, stepping away from

50:08.216 --> 50:12.154
that rumor and kind of innuendo, and just

50:12.194 --> 50:15.746
thinking about yourself and thinking, what do I need? And what

50:15.770 --> 50:19.666
do I need to do? Can be one of the most powerful things we do.

50:19.810 --> 50:22.974
What's the biggest lessons you've learned today?

50:23.834 --> 50:27.258
Just in life. That's a big old question. In life. I was going to

50:27.266 --> 50:30.642
let you decide the boundaries of the question there. But I guess looking at

50:30.658 --> 50:34.138
your LinkedIn profile, you're having a milestone at

50:34.146 --> 50:38.106
the moment. And that often drives reflection as well, doesn't it? And I guess you

50:38.130 --> 50:41.754
are bringing the next generation of occupational psychologists through

50:41.834 --> 50:45.442
your really trying to encourage the next generation of organization development

50:45.498 --> 50:48.650
consultants to come through. You know, what are some of the biggest lessons that you've

50:48.682 --> 50:51.618
learned so far that you would want them to sort of take on board?

50:51.786 --> 50:55.562
I think it's quite a trite thing and lots of people say it.

50:55.698 --> 50:58.874
You're more than your job, you're more than your work. Make sure

50:58.914 --> 51:02.058
you have a well rounded life. I think it

51:02.066 --> 51:05.714
was only really when I hit my forties that I understood

51:05.754 --> 51:09.328
that. So work, it had all been about work

51:09.456 --> 51:13.360
up until that point in my career. And so my

51:13.392 --> 51:16.664
whole identity was around that. And so the danger of

51:16.704 --> 51:20.160
that is if you only have one thing that you're

51:20.192 --> 51:24.096
reliant on for your sense of self worth and identity, if something impacts that,

51:24.240 --> 51:27.560
right, you know, bad things can happen. And so having

51:27.592 --> 51:32.024
a well rounded life is important. And it was the

51:32.144 --> 51:36.620
sudden death of my dad at the start of my forties that really reinforce

51:36.652 --> 51:40.036
that, you know, dad died unexpectedly and then

51:40.060 --> 51:43.196
my mum was diagnosed with terminal cancer the

51:43.220 --> 51:46.532
month after dad's funeral. And I said to my husband, the universe trying

51:46.548 --> 51:49.612
to tell me something here, because they, you know, I grew

51:49.628 --> 51:53.196
up in a kind of a working class family. You know,

51:53.260 --> 51:56.620
when I was a kid, money was tight. And then

51:56.692 --> 52:00.068
as time went on, capitalist culture and that, and mum and

52:00.076 --> 52:03.388
dad started to earn a bit more money, but it was always about squirreling money

52:03.436 --> 52:07.244
away. And we'll celebrate our retirement, we'll enjoy our retirement

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next year, next year, next year. And that never happened. And so

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that was a big lesson for me, is don't leave it. And so

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when I started to work for myself and it's something

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I still do now. I don't work every day.

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I don't work Fridays, I don't work weekends.

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I'm very bound. I've always been very boundary, but I'm even more boundaried because

52:31.124 --> 52:34.948
having a well rounded life, having time with family and friends, having time on

52:34.996 --> 52:38.570
hobbies, learning new things is as important and I think makes

52:38.602 --> 52:42.242
me more interesting, you know, how boring must I

52:42.258 --> 52:45.578
have been just talking about my job all the time? It's good advice, isn't it?

52:45.586 --> 52:49.090
Because I think it's. Unfortunately, it takes an event like

52:49.122 --> 52:52.482
that to create greater sense of perspective and more balance. But a

52:52.498 --> 52:56.338
lot of the roles that people find themselves in are utterly absorbing, aren't they?

52:56.466 --> 52:59.414
And the job will never tell you that's enough.

53:00.274 --> 53:04.230
And it'll take as much as you've got, won't it? Yeah. And the other.

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The other lesson is, don't confuse other people's

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career aspirations for you, for yours.

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So when I started my long old journey in local government,

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so when I had that first headhunt, when I went into that technology

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role and I did this strategy work and I was being

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lauded and everything, and people suddenly

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started to pay attention because before I'd been there,

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that sweet little od team, they do the fun stuff,

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even though we did some really meaty stuff. And suddenly people were like.

53:37.574 --> 53:40.998
And a few really senior people at the highest

53:41.046 --> 53:44.634
level were saying, we think you could be a chief executive.

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And because I had quite low self esteem, it's something I

53:48.510 --> 53:51.318
still struggle with now. It didn't take much.

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A couple of nice ego strokes and I was like, really?

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And suddenly my obsession was becoming a chief executive at local authority.

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Never had I dreamt of that. I didn't light my fire,

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but I told myself it did. And so those

54:05.626 --> 54:09.154
other offers that I got to move into customer services to do that was part

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of me confusing other people's aspirations

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for me and telling me they were mine when they weren't.

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And it was only when I came out the other side, set up Halo,

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came back to my beloved roots of occupational

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psychology that I feel I've shone, no pun

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intended, with my branding,

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because I'm doing what I feel I was meant to do. I was never

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meant to be a local gov, chief exec. I mean, awe of those who

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do it, but. So, yeah, so don't

54:42.510 --> 54:46.918
confuse other people's aspirations for you, for yours. Sound advice.

54:47.046 --> 54:50.518
So just a couple more questions. So, one is, you know, obviously you've spent a

54:50.526 --> 54:53.574
lot of time learning and developing yourself. What does that look like for you now?

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How do you invest in your own learning and development now? Well, funny you

54:57.090 --> 55:00.362
say that, Danny, because I was thinking about exactly that today. So obviously I have

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to track my continuing professional development just in case

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I'm ever audited by the BPS or the

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HCPC. So it's a bit of an Alphabet suit there.

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So as a coach, I have a coaching supervisor,

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so I meet with my coaching supervisor every two months. She is

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absolutely worth her weight in gold, just in. We have

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incredible conversations that really help me to reflect

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deeply and I think make me a better coach. The other things I

55:28.332 --> 55:32.324
do include conference

55:32.364 --> 55:35.980
season coming up, so the division of occupational Psychology hasn't had an in

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person conference for a long time, like many since the pandemic,

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so it's our first in person three days. Woo. So I'm

55:43.660 --> 55:47.340
going to that, the division of coaching psychology conference as well.

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I'm going to that. I sign up for

55:51.468 --> 55:54.644
webinars. I do a lot of reading, as you both know,

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so I read a lot of research articles, which I

55:58.508 --> 56:02.020
have to as an evidence based practitioner, and I like to role model

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that to our students. I read a lot of books as well, and so

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I'll always be making notations in books

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or journals, and then I kind of capture that. I've got big databases

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of stuff, so it means I've always got access when I'm

56:17.944 --> 56:21.912
designing talks or training or stuff like that. So, yeah, that's broadly what

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I do. And are they the inspiration for the lovely sketchnotes that everybody will

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have seen all over LinkedIn? They are, yes. Yes. So sketchnotes

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are a combination of things that I have used throughout my career

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and that I'm passionate about and I think managers could benefit from knowing as

56:37.200 --> 56:40.776
well as new things that I discover. So, because it

56:40.800 --> 56:44.364
helps anchor my learning. If it's a new. If it's a new thing or

56:45.124 --> 56:48.884
if I'm summarizing a study, for example, again, it helps anchor my

56:48.924 --> 56:52.732
understanding. So it's a win win all round. Fabulous. Yeah. And the

56:52.748 --> 56:58.020
world's very happy you do those colouring

56:58.052 --> 57:01.388
in. It's so therapeutic. And we

57:01.396 --> 57:04.732
have a lot of people who actually watch this that are just getting started in

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organization development, or they're looking in and wanting

57:08.428 --> 57:11.732
to get started. What advice would you give people just at the very beginning of

57:11.748 --> 57:15.270
their OD career? So get a mentor. Find a mentor

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if you don't have one already. There was a really interesting study.

57:20.494 --> 57:23.630
I'll share it if you want to share it. I think it's open access.

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I'll share the reference. Anyway, let me just make a note. If I don't write

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it, I'm 50. If I don't write it down, I'll forget it. But there was

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a really interesting study, I think it was from about 2019,

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2018, that looked at the impact of

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mentoring on those starting out in their OD career, and it

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found that mentoring had the biggest impact. So find a mentor.

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If there's somebody in your organization who's more experienced around OD,

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reach out to them. If maybe you're a

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little bit alone in your organisation,

57:55.104 --> 57:58.424
you can reach out to Danny and Garen because they'll be maybe able to introduce

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you to all the wonderful people they know. So, yeah,

58:01.232 --> 58:04.680
finding a mentor, I think go on

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some kind of training and development. So think about all the

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things you'd like to learn, the best ways

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for you to learn that. So there might be some techniques, such as tea

58:15.632 --> 58:19.240
groups, for example, or appreciative inquiry, where you might want to go on a course.

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There might be other things where it's okay just to read or watch videos.

58:23.848 --> 58:26.928
But again, a bit like what I was talking about earlier, have your own little,

58:26.976 --> 58:30.000
what, I don't know, book and just kind of keep a note of that.

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And that's also a really good way of tracking your progress.

58:33.304 --> 58:37.040
Become part of a professional network. So there's all sorts of great

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OD networks out there, and I'd encourage you to join one

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of those if you're not joined up to those already.

58:45.104 --> 58:49.208
And again, a great way to learn, a great way to build relationships.

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And we know a really important thing at the heart of good od is relationships.

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It's about people. Wonderful. Well,

58:56.664 --> 59:01.008
Hayley, just want to say a huge thank you. You've brought a real refreshing

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honesty and generosity of spirit to the conversation.

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When we set out to sort of do the podcast, what we really wanted to

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do is to invite practitioners like you to come

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in and just share what does it mean to have

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a career and to share what it really is like as well.

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And you've really been able to articulate that in a really engaging

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way. And I've got loads of things I'm going to take away. I'm sure you

59:24.988 --> 59:28.348
do as well. Daniel. I guess I really like thinking about the importance of,

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for leaders, like the importance of keeping the nerve, keeping calm,

59:32.004 --> 59:36.096
keeping perspective, keeping an eye on the horizon when things get difficult,

59:36.260 --> 59:39.912
the importance of the values of OD and sort of

59:40.048 --> 59:43.764
how they can be sort of role models, the dedication to democracy,

59:44.464 --> 59:48.104
being comfortable with silence and letting the silence do the heavy lifting

59:48.224 --> 59:51.576
when you're actually working with people. Power of connection, the power

59:51.600 --> 59:55.232
of humility and the role that plays in change and

59:55.248 --> 59:58.192
the fact that a lot of the work in change is not about us and

59:58.208 --> 1:00:01.700
it's about giving the leader space as well, which I really liked.

1:00:01.872 --> 1:00:04.716
And. But you've got to get the balance right. You know, don't you've got to

1:00:04.740 --> 1:00:07.836
make sure that all your different stakeholders are engaged in the journey that you're

1:00:07.860 --> 1:00:11.012
taking them on and that when you do find yourself in a role where you

1:00:11.068 --> 1:00:13.716
are, you feel a little bit out of your depth and it's brand new,

1:00:13.740 --> 1:00:17.340
that it's okay not being the expert, but being really clear on where

1:00:17.372 --> 1:00:20.716
you add the value and just that there's a

1:00:20.740 --> 1:00:24.964
role that guilt and shame plays in making sure that it doesn't color

1:00:25.004 --> 1:00:28.908
too much how you're your natural way of working and also

1:00:28.956 --> 1:00:32.452
focusing on what's in your gift as well. And a really nice

1:00:32.508 --> 1:00:36.244
nugget as well, which is like, you know, don't confuse other people's career

1:00:36.284 --> 1:00:39.652
aspirations with your own as well, to be really clear on where you're going in

1:00:39.668 --> 1:00:43.364
your career as well. So those are. Those are just some of my takeaways.

1:00:43.524 --> 1:00:47.140
That's a pretty impressive list, isn't it? I was gonna say, what's left for

1:00:47.172 --> 1:00:50.756
me, not much. You've covered so much. I think

1:00:50.780 --> 1:00:53.436
for me, the only things I had was that the power of stories and the

1:00:53.460 --> 1:00:56.564
really importance of sharing those with people and how it helps us connect and people

1:00:56.604 --> 1:01:00.040
really understand what's going on. And yet I'm starting my own things, I don't know

1:01:00.072 --> 1:01:03.576
list. So that's my takeaway. I'm gonna

1:01:03.600 --> 1:01:07.024
buy myself a new notebook. It's a good excuse for a notebook.

1:01:07.104 --> 1:01:10.064
I know my husband says I should set up at my own stationery shop.

1:01:10.104 --> 1:01:14.072
He's like, why all these pens and empty notebooks? Because I do. All right.

1:01:14.248 --> 1:01:17.324
I know I have the same conversations here. So. Yeah,

1:01:17.864 --> 1:01:21.560
brilliant. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for your time. I know you're extraordinarily

1:01:21.592 --> 1:01:25.048
busy with all the different things that you're interested in. If people want

1:01:25.056 --> 1:01:27.936
to reach out to you, if they want to follow your sketch notes, if they

1:01:27.960 --> 1:01:30.616
want to sort of see some of the professional things that you're sharing, you,

1:01:30.680 --> 1:01:34.232
you have a newsletter. What's the best paper for people to reach out to?

1:01:34.328 --> 1:01:38.008
So either via LinkedIn, always come and say hello. Connect with me.

1:01:38.056 --> 1:01:41.904
I'm very friendly. Or via my

1:01:41.944 --> 1:01:45.524
website. So halo psychology.com,

1:01:45.984 --> 1:01:49.216
you can connect with me via there. It's got my details,

1:01:49.320 --> 1:01:52.728
and there's also all sorts of free resources for you to pillage away.

1:01:52.896 --> 1:01:55.840
Brilliant. And can you promise when you do your memoirs,

1:01:55.992 --> 1:01:57.924
can you come back on the podcast?

1:01:59.954 --> 1:02:01.534
I'd love that. Yeah,

1:02:02.634 --> 1:02:06.386
we'll be right there for you. Okay. I'll be like winston churchill with his diaries.

1:02:06.450 --> 1:02:10.202
It'll be like volume 13 with a little bit of jilly

1:02:10.218 --> 1:02:12.614
cooper in there as well. Yeah, hold on a minute.

1:02:14.154 --> 1:02:17.306
No, I'd love to come back. It's not unknown for me

1:02:17.330 --> 1:02:20.674
to be on a podcast more than once, but yeah, you're very welcome. Thank you.

1:02:20.794 --> 1:02:24.294
Thank you so much for asking me, and I hope your listeners enjoyed the.

1:02:24.434 --> 1:02:27.414
The talk brilliant. Thanks so much. You're very welcome.

1:02:27.454 --> 1:02:27.894
Thank Hailey.