The Hidden Leadership Power of Endings with Lizzie Bentley Bowers and Alison Lucas

How do leaders handle endings well - and why do so many organisations rush past them?

In this episode of the OrgDev Podcast, we speak with Lizzie Bentley Bowers and Alison Lucas about one of the most overlooked aspects of leadership and organisational change: endings.

Many organisations focus on launches, growth, restructures, mergers and new strategies. Far less attention is given to what is being left behind - projects ending, team changes, role loss, leadership exits, funding cuts and organisational transitions.

We explore why poorly handled endings can create uncertainty, grief, resistance, disengagement and hidden disruption. Lizzie and Alison share practical insight on how leaders can guide people through endings with clarity, care and honesty - helping organisations move forward without damaging trust, morale or performance.

If you work in leadership, HR, organisation development, change management or culture transformation, this episode offers practical ideas for handling transition and creating stronger beginnings.

Topics covered
Leadership during change
Organisational endings
Restructures and transitions
Employee trust and morale
Communication in uncertainty
Culture through change
Why endings shape beginnings

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About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

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Transcript

(00:00) Hi and welcome to the org dev podcast. So we spend a lot of time in organizations talking about beginnings, new strategies, new structures, new priorities. What we talk about far less is about how things end. Endings tend to be rushed past in the push towards whatever comes next. Projects stop, teams change, funding ends, roles disappear, and we quickly move on without really pausing to acknowledge what's being left behind.

(00:27) In this org dev episode, we're focusing on endings as a critical but often overlooked moment in leadership and organizational life. What happens when endings aren't handled well and what does it really ask of leaders to lead through them with care rather than avoidance? We're absolutely delighted to be joined by Lizzie Bentley Bowers and Allison Lucas today.

(00:48) Both are executive coaches and facilitators working at board level across all organizations. Allison is director for the Randolph Partnership and Lizzie is the founder of Causeway Coaching and we found them through their book, the brilliant book Goodbye Leading Change Better by Attending to Endings and it's a must readad. In fact, Danny approached me just just before Christmas and said, "I've read a book.

(01:07) We absolutely have to have Allison and Lizzie on it." And as soon as we discussed the topic, we suddenly realized this is something that's been missing from the ordev podcast from the very beginning. So, we're so happy that Allison and Lizzie have given their time today to talk about their work, their thoughts, and their book as well.

(01:37) Say, yeah, if you if you're on audio, then I've got my my usual book with all the tabs. So, I've devoured this. I think it made me I I really enjoyed it from a you know, there's lots to talk about today. I really enjoyed it from a kind of organizational perspective, but I think also personally just making me think about transitions going on now and endings and things I've been involved in in the past.

(01:55) So, it's it was a really good reflection piece for me as well. Just to kick us off, tell us a bit about the book. What inspired you to write it? The main thing I think was we realized that this was something that we were encountering all the time and that people could do it better. It's as simple as that. It could be done better. And we have always been great believers in thinking about how.

(02:18) Not just what do what do organizations need to do, what do leaders need to do, but working with ourselves and with our clients on the how. Because the what is all very well, but without a how it's not as much use. So we we felt this could be done better. Uh we wanted more people to be talking about it and we didn't want to be talking about that without saying how do you do it? Um, so that's what initially inspired us to write the book.

(02:45) It's a gap too, Alli, isn't it? >> Yeah. I think when we So we we've been talking about it for a long time and then when we we always talk about turning to our bookshelves and that there is nothing in executive education and leadership about endings. And we sort of came up with these four I love a ven diagram.

(03:04) We came up with this ven di four ven diagram of four overlapping circles. Not quite rings, but four circles. And in one was sort of loss and grief work, in one was change management, in one was leadership, and in one was emotional intelligence, emotional agility. Um, and we realized that what we were talking about was bringing all of that together into the middle of that ven diagram.

(03:26) And when we took our proposal to our publisher and part of writing a proposal, you have to say, what are you competing with? What else is in that space? There was absolutely nothing in the middle of that ven diagram apart from goodbye. And that is incredibly exciting. And it's also part of what's really interesting about wanting to start a conversation about it.

(03:47) Which is why it's so exciting to hear that you loved it and you're picking up and wanting to talk more about it. Because sometimes it's much easier to have something in a space where you go, well, it's like this, but we've done these improvements. Whereas what we've been saying is our ambition is to start the conversation about how we could do endings in organizations better. That was our ambition.

(04:05) And I think we've achieved that which is feeling amazing, isn't it, Lizzy? >> It is. It is. And there's something you said Garen at the beginning about um brighter beginnings. And that's the reason why is we really believe and our experience shows us that when you pay more attention to endings, it is the brighter beginnings piece that is the benefit in so I'm sure I'll get into this, but in so many ways.

(04:28) And we thought we'd covered them. We thought we covered them all. Maybe no, we didn't think we'd cover them all. We certainly felt like we'd covered a lot as we were writing the book. And what's been so exciting is that the more we have conversations with people, the more we realize just how we talk about ripples and how those ripples of paying attention to endings have such an impact in so many ways on beginnings all the time.

(04:51) And then for people who've not had the chance to read the book yet, and I would encourage lots of people to read it, when we talk about endings in organizational life, what sort of things are you kind of really pointing to and what aren't we talking about? Yeah, that's a really good that's a really good question, Danny, because um what we're talking about is endings within an organizational framework.

(05:08) So, first of what we're not talking about as we were really clear back to those sort of overlapping areas that we are not lost in grief counselors. You know, that is something that would need a specific intervention. So, we're talking about everyday endings project. I mean, um, Garren talked about a lot of them at the beginning.

(05:28) You know, a project that gets cancelled, a team that gets disbanded. So, it can be organizational endings, a whole office moving, or it can be an individual ending, one person retiring, one person being made redundant. It can be an internal promotion, which often people don't think of as an ending because they're still here and they're translating into a new a new leadership role, but absolutely an internal promotion is is an ending.

(05:50) And early on in the book, we got a an exercise about asking you to name all the endings that going on around you. And when you start doing that, you realize quite how many they are. And they don't all need to be walked through a process and they don't all need to be attended to. But just raising that awareness of the endings that are going on are really important.

(06:07) And then the caveat is that it's within um the realms of leadership. >> Yeah. So some of the first things we say in the book, well the first I think it's the first line of the book, Ali, isn't it that we say there's a myriad of endings in organizations every day and there are so many and there are some that are even um perhaps not given their full attention as endings because they're seen as temporary.

(06:29) So we're thinking about things like taking sabbaticals or temporary seconement, parental leave. Um so those are just other examples of the the sheer volume of endings every day. We we have to be really careful to say that and particularly as we wrote this book during CO or started I say was we wrote that we started to write this book during CO.

(06:50) We certainly started to recognize even more need during CO and we wanted to offer leaders some practical ways to find to find a way through the fact that the number of endings was increasing. You know organizations were closing merging um new ways of working were having to be found at speed. the thing the ways we used to even do the endings we paid did pay attention to was changing at speed.

(07:13) Um but what we wanted to be really clear on is that at that time of course people were facing the ultimate ending. there was an enormous amount going on in organizations around um loss and death and grief and we knew that that we we knew we wanted to take real care to say this this is not what we're offering and I think it's really important to always acknowledge that there's some incredible work that goes on in that space for organizations for leaders and we point to some of that in the book um and we really encourage people to get that kind

(07:44) of support but yeah that it's not a book about some of those ultimate endings that people face. >> When you think about some of these endings we've talked about, so projects finishing, promotions, people moving on. Why do endings matter more than most many leaders kind of realize? You started to articulate, I think, that, but can you just expand on that? Why do m endings really matter? Alli's got this lovely phrase, the full color tale.

(08:05) And one of the things we've noticed is that if you ask somebody if they've ever had an ending in an organization, an organizational ending of some kind that impacted them or they've left an organization in a way that impacted them, brace yourself because out will come what Alli calls the full color tale of what happened, when it happened, how it happened, and how it still still impacts them now, often years later.

(08:30) And that can impact the way they then make decisions in their new roles. It can impact their confidence. It can impact their level of trust, their level of engagement. It impacts their families. It impacts the people who were witnessed to that ending, whether they've stayed in the organization, whether they've left.

(08:49) It ripples out both internally and externally and reputationally. There is so much that is impacted by the ending, but also by the beginning that follows. really good and subtle example of that is say a leader gets suddenly exited and goes on the spot under some sort of compromise agreement. Everybody that's remaining in the organization makes their own sense of it doesn't really know what's happened.

(09:12) Nobody contacts that leader through not really knowing if it's okay to or not. So none of the ritual, none of the um acknowledgement goes on. For that team that stays that needs to regroup to take up the slack while something else happens. It impacts their sense of self belonging. Where does decision- making sit? Uh is this how we do business around here? Sense of safety.

(09:37) It can impact on many different ways. Lizzie said then the family of that person that's been let go and how they're feeling about everything. We often think it's just about the person that has gone. That that's the obvious one. But then the person that comes in six months later and occupies that seat and doesn't quite what know why it feels the way it does, why it doesn't quite flow, why they haven't quite got the trust of the team.

(10:04) And that's the sort of invisible threads that often are behind it. And um that's why we've started talking about um it's language we've developed over the last 6 months actually with all the writing that we've been doing that that this is about being stewards of those endings for the whole system beyond I need to take care of so and so because they are being exited from the business is actually being a steward of understanding all of those ripples in service of those who remain those who stay and those that come next.

(10:34) And it's so interesting. One of the things when we as we were writing the book, but particularly as we've been talking about the book is that understandably organizations and leaders want to think about why they would invest in paying attention to this. So, you know, what's the financial impact? Um there's a there's a reality to that being important to organizations.

(10:54) Of course, there is. And so, that's been really interesting to us because there are so many benefits to paying attention to endings that um are perhaps harder to measure. They're measured in things like well-being. They're measured in the quality of decisions and how do we know that and all of those kinds of things.

(11:09) But there are some things that we really can look at in terms of you when you look at what is the investment that you made in the beginnings. What is the investment that you made in onboarding processes? What is the investment you make in recruiting into roles where to Alli's point something isn't quite working and we can't articulate why.

(11:28) What's the investment that's made in well-being support? When a team is struggling to trust each other or when a pitch isn't one because the team hasn't gelled because they haven't truly uh moved on from what it is they were doing together before or the way that they came together. You know, there there's just these endless ramifications and ripples that I think it is possible to put a price on and particularly to put a price on again.

(11:56) What is it worth to us if those things are better? And the chances are that's a lot. Mergers and acquisitions is another place that we see. We talk about that as the most complex ending that organizations can encounter. Often things like you might uh you might be saying saying goodbye to an entire brand identity as it merges with another one and to history to legacy to the founding of one organization that is being acquired by or merged with another.

(12:25) and endless examples of how if you paid more attention to what closes and what the beginning therefore looks like, look at that 5 years down the line and you'll see that you made a huge difference to outcomes. >> Yeah. Cuz I think as you were talking there, I was thinking about all the myriad of applications here and I'm sure people watching thinking, "Oh yeah, that explains so much.

(12:48) " And I guess in action, one of the things you talked about is loss and grief. And I guess I'm sort of curious about what does that look like? So for example, you know, there's a constant need in organizations to keep moving forward. And yet when there is loss, mourning comes with it as well, doesn't it? And if people don't necessarily give the time or the space or the patience for these things.

(13:10) So I if you're a manager for example who has had to do redundancy and needs to make space for their team but can't necessarily talk about it in detail like what are the things that they have at their disposal to sort of help them through that process. So I think I think you've named the two most important which is time and space and that assumption of rushing on and sometimes it is an assumption because we get into the habit of speed but sometimes it's rushing on because we don't want to sit with those froggy emotions that go with

(13:38) loss and grief and the fact that this is different now and we are going to miss some of these people and we need to regroup. So I think there's a convenience in in rushing forward. So time time and space and find finding the right place. So it doesn't necessarily have to be the manager that helps people to process this stuff, but but actually saying it's okay, acknowledging the fact that it will feel different, that it's going to take some time, not piling on objectives straight away, checking in with people. And I did I did a piece of

(14:09) work with two teams that came together who were part of a bigger merger, but this is two specific teams coming together. and and in in in an hour they did a little bit of history telling of where they came from and what the separate identities meant to them and what the reality of this merger meant for them.

(14:29) We basically walk through the steps and how they were feeling and they had really mixed feelings from I've worked from for company A for 25 years and it runs through me like a stick of rock to I was I was recruited into this company six months ago and you were already merging. Hey ho, I knew that this is going to be great for me. And just that little bit of history telling and naming of emotions and we gave them emotions cards so they didn't have to sort of you know they could just say yes I think I think I've got these these ones going on. Brought the collective

(15:00) together to then start in the afternoon they were doing strategic planning going forward. So that is time and space but that's not you know a never- ending indulge in time and space. that's a specific structure, time and space with a bit of thought put around it and process that allows people to think through actually what's this mean we come together and then the acceleration of them coming together because they had done a little bit of grieving and sharing um and then encouraging them if there's more to talk about that they

(15:29) need to find a place to take that so I think it's keeping the manager's role in proportion but being really cognizant of the fact that this might be needed whether or not it's that you're leading and managing it or giving time and space for it. >> I guess one of the things that's probably really important to communicate to organizations that this is not indulgent.

(15:48) It has a huge impact on the operational bottom line, isn't it? I'm sort of reminded of a situation that I was called into and there was just a senior manager and they was he was seen as being very difficult with slowing down performance the way the team was in and only when you went back through his story that he was actually carrying the trauma of people that he'd worked with 20 years ago that had just been walked off site after serving the organization for multiple decades and East was still hanging on to that and that has such a big impact but

(16:15) >> but it's again it's that kind of sort of thing that we don't make time for it do we and we kind of move on. But those you talk about leaving scars in an organization. There's a lot of scar tissue that that exists in organizations. >> The image that comes to mind as you describe that Garin, which sounds incredibly difficult for that individual is is that kind of put a lid on it, you know, keep keep it down because and and I think there are a number of reasons that you know speed speed is one of the organ the reasons why people do this.

(16:41) But I think there's also something there's a really understandable nervousness for a lot of leaders, for a lot of managers, for a lot of people who we're asking to do more to hold that space about how do I do it? What what do I do if the emotion becomes too much? And and therefore we try and simplify it. We try and put the lid on it.

(17:00) We try and simplify it. You know, we often talk about the fact that if you can name, you know, Alli's talked about naming emotions, and it's so important because you might be feeling sadness, but you might also be feeling some relief. You might be feeling some guilt about who's who's staying and who's going, you know, we we we we're not feeling one thing at a time throughout the whole process.

(17:21) And we're, you know, different people are feeling different things at different times, at different levels. It's this whole mixing desk of all these different emotions we might feel, the levels at which we might feel them, the time at which we might feel them. And we're not saying that you as leaders and managers, of course, you haven't got time to do nothing but facilitate those emotions.

(17:42) But if you go the other way and you do none of it, that's still going somewhere. That emotion is still going somewhere. It will show up. Um, it will show up in other roles. It will show up in decision- making. It will show up in confidence. It will show up in trust. It will show up as the description you've just given 20 years later.

(18:00) And giving it some space that if it turns out it needs more, as Ali said, then you work out, okay, well, where where else could you take this? But actually, in the vast majority of cases that we encounter and the work that we do, it's enough. It's enough space to give it some space is enough space to name the emotions at all is enough.

(18:21) And it's interesting because a lot of managers are sort of pre-programmed to want to solve things. >> Yeah. >> Is there something just about letting it be? Like I may be feeling sad, but like don't fix it. It's just leave it with >> Yeah. I think I think you're absolutely spot on. I think the the the fix it, rescue, how can we move this forward? And and often it is let it be.

(18:44) It's sitting with those feelings and knowing that these two will pass and people can process that on their own that it's not just because somebody says they're sad that you have to fix that. It's one of the reasons why I got um emotional agility back out this morning because she she talks about um in sort of being in contact with our emotions then it's not about being run by our emotions.

(19:06) And she had this lovely phrase about by by being in contact them, we can put distance between the the thinker and the thoughts, the feeler and the feelings. Is I need some more I see some tabs like you. I'm just like got pencil marks everywhere, Danny. But I think I think it is exactly that.

(19:23) It's um just because somebody's expressed an emotion to you doesn't mean you then have to solve it. You just have to acknowledge it. And if it and and if it doesn't go away and doesn't move, then that person might need to take it somewhere else. But I think gosh I think your story about the chap and all those exits 20 years ago.

(19:39) I mean history matters and and again you know what can managers do taking a little bit of time to understand the history of how we got to here and um why somebody might be feeling or behaving in a in a way. I can't tell tell you how many times I have had a one-to-one client say I'm fi I'm finding I'm finding X really difficult to manage and then I say tell me about the history and so many times it might be something like well they were on temporary promotion for my job and then I came in and they've done nothing to talk about the

(20:12) ending of the fact that that person was acting up and then didn't get the substantive promotion and yeah I've probably heard that a version of that a hundred times. And that's not much to sort of understand before you start judging behavior which what I'm hearing was going on with your chat to actually think about what what might have led us to here and to be curious about how did we get to here because there's probably some absolute gold dust in there.

(20:37) I was going to say I wonder how if some of it goes to the very heart of how we how we portray change in our organizations and kind of the role of a leader to be positive and if we've got a big change or transformation then that that drive to just be positive about it and not acknowledge the the downsides.

(20:54) We we're not very good I don't think in organizations at saying yes we're doing this thing it means a huge amount of change. There are positives but we also need to acknowledge the the downsides. So we're not very good I don't think in organizations at doing that. So, some of this goes to the the heart of that, I think.

(21:08) >> Sorry, I just hit you. What was that? >> I was saying, wouldn't they be grown up to do that? I mean, that's genius. >> Well, and and it's really interesting because in the in the book, we we we offered four steps and reality, emotions, accomplishments, and ritual. And to your point about um positives and negatives, we start with that reality step, name the full reality because what people tend to do is put the reality into these positive and negative buckets.

(21:35) And what we're challenging leaders to do and um inviting them to do is say what's the reality before we get into the emotion and how I feel about that reality and how other people feel about that reality. let's name it and let's try not to categorize it because if by doing that so for example what we've experienced is that in doing in naming the reality people are able to then say oh and actually there's this aspect that I hadn't considered because they haven't got caught up in the emotion of the first thing they were talking about before they've named all

(22:03) these different strands of the reality and maybe even thinking about you know what's the dissonance the timing dissonance in that reality because often some leaders are aware of and working on an an organizational ending that then they sort of lose sight of the level of surprise that is for people who've just heard that news.

(22:25) And again, separating out that reality can really help us to before we get to the emotions, pay some attention without the judgment. >> I'm going to ask you a horrible generalizing question here. Do you think that sometimes managers underestimate people's ability to take on this reality and maybe they want to sort of protect them for it or take on the role of parent for their for their people? >> Yeah.

(22:50) And yeah, in in transaction analysis terms, you you might call that marshmallowing. That sort of nurturing parent going a bit too far. And actually part of reality is clarity. And I think whenever you have clarity, however much you might not want to hear what it is, it gives you choice. And and I think managers often in in that way just marshmallow and fudge stuff and actually when we can be clear and we can talk as Danny beautifully said the change is a reality. We need it.

(23:18) There are going to be positives. This is where we're hoping it's going to take us but but this is this is what we're going to lose in the meantime and this is what we need to work through. That level of clarity and honesty I think as human beings most of us can cope with that. But again, it's back to what assumptions do we make that leaders and managers ought and should be doing.

(23:37) >> There's something really interesting about measures of success there. You know, how are you measuring the success of a transition? How are you measuring the success of a change? And as as you ask that, Gary, I'm reminded of um I'm reminded of work that we often do around delegation.

(23:52) I'm sure you've encountered this many times that people get to a certain position and they struggle then with the delegation because they don't want to overburden people or you know it all becomes about what they don't want to do rather than um giving giving those people the the credit for wanting to do those things or for having a conversation about those things or being ready to do those things having those opportunities.

(24:16) There's something about sometimes when we go into these leadership and management roles, we overstep our responsibility for how other people feel rather than being the space in which they can express it. We can discuss it, work it through. It's okay if we're a bit uncomfortable because we'll that's the point. We'll get to a place of comfort.

(24:36) And so many of these principles that we've applied to endings, you know, leaders are really skilled in this. Um or if they're not, they become skilled when they notice it. And it's that there's something about how can you translate those skills across and pay attention to this often ignored subject. >> So in in a lot of organizations the it's clogged up with zombie projects or zombie initiatives.

(25:00) They kind of they were launched with great fanfare, town hall, whatever cakes were brought in. This is the next big thing that's going to save us. And people really put their effort behind it. And then they just kind of Danny sort of says projects die a day at a time which is which is very true isn't it and they just kind of fizz out but and you talk about the you talk about the importance of rituals but there's very rarely rituals about a project or an initiative ending and so they kind of carry on I guess what's your perspective on that is is that

(25:29) something that you see in the organizations you work with and and and what can organizations do to sort of clean house because it it's kind of entropy in a way isn't it like it creates disorder in an organization when there's so stuff out there that just hasn't been ended and it's just in the ether. >> Gosh, there's so much in in that.

(25:46) I love that project's die a day at a time. It's so true, isn't it? And there's well gosh, my head's going to so many places, but the opportunity there to name that reality and it's a it's courageous work, but to name that reality of the fact that this is this is no longer working or this thing we had great intention for and high hopes for.

(26:07) Let's be honest about where it is and let's be honest about it so that the attention, the energy, the time, the money that is still going into keeping that alive as it dies gradually could be spent on what's next, could be spent on rounding it off in a way that enables everybody to move on to something that is going to work.

(26:32) There was something also that was pointed out to us as we were writing the book and we were interviewing some people at the right as we were writing the book that really stayed with me about um inclusion and endings and how if we're not paying proper attention to the ways of working that need to end and we're naming them as they end the danger we actually carry through some of the thoughts and behaviors rather than truly shifting them.

(27:01) So the the amount of opportunity that comes with paying proper attention to courageously naming this doesn't work or this doesn't serve people well, this doesn't serve the organization well. Again, we keep using that word myriad. There are so many ways in which working life could be improved by having the courage to say either this needs to end or it is ending.

(27:26) Let's take a let's look at it. Let's open our eyes and take a long hard look at it. >> I love the fact you said clean because I think so many things do drift on. In fact, they have ended a couple of years ago, but nobody's formally taken them off the, you know, project sheet, payroll, what whatever it is. I I think there's something really interesting about how those um are sometimes attached to ego some sometimes attached to the beginning and you know what we've invested that sort of what's what's that what's that phrase about um sunk cost

(27:56) fallacy sunk cost fallacy that actually because we've invested so much in this we need to continue and it's just got this sort of like you know nose dive tail and and I think the advantage of if we can encourage organizations to actually really look and think how much time and energy going into things that actually are not materially contributing anymore.

(28:17) You have the opportunity to do something clean and then the step that we recommend is back to the accomplishments is that that then gives you the opportunity to do lessons learned. It's not a sort of skullking away my project was canned. It's the given probably 100 context shifts because that's the world we work in have happened since that was launched in good faith actually what are the lessons learned what can we do to be more agile or what what worked well on that project even though we didn't get the outcome and again if we're too attached to it we

(28:46) can't do that work and by ending it cleanly and thinking about it rather than just walking away from it actually allows you to work out what what can we take from that which might be gosh once we do this work we've got all these zombie projects but I think I think it's really interesting because we put projects into the into the book and it felt like a really subtle one and actually I think you could just talk about projects the whole the whole time because probably people never think actually ending a project is something

(29:16) but there will be emotional attachment to it there will be people who have stake something big on it people who believed it more than others it's really interesting projects often get cancelled when new leaders come in you know and that might be about ego and direction of the new leader but it also might be about clarity if it's easier for me to clean look at that and go no that isn't working I was going to say as we're talking I'm just thinking professor Julie Hodges at Durham has written some books on leading change and she talks

(29:41) about the ghosts of changes past and you know the impact that has on people being ready for more change so if you haven't addressed the project that kind of just quietly drifted away that somebody really committed to and bought into and put all their efforts into and then you're bringing out a new new big thing and you're sat there going well why aren't they excited about this time is because I think you know it's tied in with this you've not attended to the endings.

(30:05) >> Yeah. And those ghosts can be the ghosts of success as well. >> So this this the same is absolutely true for successful projects and for change that's happening as a result of success. There are there's still a reality to what's ending. There is still complex and different things that people are feeling.

(30:22) Not everybody is going to feel 100% great about everything. even if it looks shiny and great on the front and and often the accomplishment that gets noted when a a project is successful is the is the final outcome. But there were all sorts of outcomes along the way that are worthy of learning of acknowledgement and how again might a ritual ensure that when we go to the next project we are starting it a new and not running the risk of saying oh well it worked over there so it's going to work over here because that's hope one question I just want to ask that's

(30:56) just been sort of bubbling under for me in this and you may or may not have an opinion you talked about emotions and if we're talking about things like bringing a project to an end that was launched with a lot of political capital and social capital attached to it. someone's been moved on that was seen as the next big thing is is some of the uncomfortable emotions that come with that which is like shame uh which is I may have been partly accountable for this or does does shame play a part in this why endings aren't tended to does

(31:23) it something that you see in your work quite a lot >> I think it does hugely and I think it's the reason why we say you have to start with yourself every time we've ever been on a course and you know you know as practitioners when you go on a course you think you're going to learn about how to do useful things to other people and then you sit there and go, "Oh, I've got to learn about what this means for me." Damn it.

(31:44) Exactly the same with endings that you have to understand, you know, your own relationship to endings at that sort of meta level. But then at an individual ending, you need to work out how you're feeling about it. So let's take the example of I'm a leader and I'm using a restructure to make somebody redundant but secretly I'm relieved and feeling a little bit shameful and guilty because I have avoided putting them on performance improvement plan.

(32:13) So the restructure has allowed me a clean way of doing it where I can pretend it's got nothing to do with me not facing into difficult conversations. You have to start with self to actually be able to to work that out to then be able to be supporting that person or know that somebody else should probably support a person because you have avoided performance managing them.

(32:32) So I I think shame, guilt, embarrassment, which is a sort of slightly different hue from shame are are really part of that and part of that let's rush on and forward and it'll be better next time. There's um there's a chapter in the book we call giants because rather than having a bibliography we wanted to acknowledge the the the giants on whose shoulders we sit as we write the book and the different people's work we bring together and Bnee Brown is one of them and her work on shame and vulnerability and she talks about how sh you know

(33:03) shame thrives in dark quiet spaces where there isn't a light shone on them and the opposite of shame isn't confidence it's vulnerability It's saying this was difficult. It's saying we got this wrong. It's it's role modeling that. And so I think it's saying something about this is what we believe about leadership.

(33:24) And I'm really it's really interesting what Alli said about ego. It's really easy to get caught up in an expectation giving ourselves an expectation of some kind of something along the lines of perfection when we're in these roles where eyes are on us. And yet we all know that it's when we see the full human in front of us. And that isn't about sort of crying every day.

(33:46) Far from it. But it's about saying, you know, there's we're constantly walking a whole range of experiences. And we can if we can honestly share where some of those are coming from and why we're making some of these decisions and who we are as people navigating difficult organizational life in a world that's constantly changing.

(34:10) It's a powerful It's a powerful thing to offer to the people that we're leading. >> A lot of people that are watching this will be in the HR community. So, they see a lot of this stuff. They see the manager that's going, "No, no, no. This is honestly a restructure. There's no no. It's it's not about their performance at all.

(34:28) What can HR or those people that are bystanders or participants in these processes do to make sure that that honest reflection goes on and the lessons are learned?" because it's easy for for us to postrationalize things and move on quickly but otherwise it just gets repeated again in history for the next issue as well. >> The last few months we have had a huge interest from the HR community that it that the book has really landed in the HR community in the sort of wanting to know more and understanding that how to from that perspective in the book we

(34:57) talk about the architects and the implementers of ending. So um and and somebody might be one and somebody might be the other and somebody might be a bit of both. So an HRBP could be a bit of an architect, a bit of a designing with the the leader and the manager and also the implement or you might have somebody who's just the impleer and actually those two roles because you're calling sort of you know bystanders but that they are absolutely in it and our honest answer is that what we would like to do is to equip them. We

(35:29) we would like our I think our next ambition having said we wanted to start a conversation is we think possibly the most exciting way of translating this into organizations is to equip those architects and implementers through the uniqueness is the HR role and that if we could help them understand their own relationship to endings what might be going on for them understand how to use the the work that they will we can upskill them we can give them capacity in supporting those leaders and managers in how to do it. And I'll get all

(36:05) excited when I get into this. I I think that is the single next biggest thing that we could do is actually to really really upskill those people. And I think there's appetite for it. That's what I think we're realizing that there is appetite because that is where we can have that what's the word? Get the most leverage.

(36:22) That's not the word I'm looking for. But where you could you could, you know, if we can if we can help them to be better at this and not shy away from themselves and therefore notice when they're seeing it in their leaders and managers that they can maybe pull them back from being architects of the restructure that because they're avoiding something or if they are going to implement it actually helping them upskill to implement it.

(36:44) Connected to your question, Gavin, there's we often get asked, "What about when there's legal process? What about you, the HR community is saying to us, what about when we we we literally can't talk about it?" And to Alli's point, what excites us is that it's like any leadership skill, the or any skill actually, the more you practice it when you don't need it, the more it will be available to you when you do.

(37:10) So if there is if we can be equipping organizations to culturally having be having more endings conversations where there is a difficult process then for example you can be confident as in in HR you might be able to be more confident that whilst there are things you can't talk about you know you have equipped that person to do that for themselves or you know you have equipped the organization to be having these conversations and to be doing what they can and quite often we talk about how this work happens on a piece of paper that nobody else will ever read.

(37:42) But the point is that by doing it, you've given yourself an opportunity. There's something about embedding this practice culturally that means that people are equipped for when they need it, even when it's what we call in the book tricky and messy. I was just going about go back and draw on a thread you started a little bit earlier about the idea that not all endings are negative and that there's growth and we're working with a lot of high growth companies at the moment and that comes with its own need to acknowledge the

(38:11) change and the the endings of of phases. I'm just struck by some organizations they you know they grow quickly and then people are mourning well it was this isn't you know it's not the same as it was when I joined and we were a 20 person scrappy startup and now we're much bigger and there's structure and and I don't think organizations are very good at acknowledging that I think there's some starting with the end in mind that organizations can do particularly startups young organizations that have high ambition

(38:40) but don't necessarily make the connection it's exactly what you've just described don't necessarily make The connection between is if we achieve that ambition, what does this look like? What does it look like when there are 50 of us rather than five of us? What what will it look like when there are 500 of us rather than 50 of us? And where do we and this might change of course as time goes on, but to set an intention about where will we be marking these moments, not just in terms of numbers and figures, but in terms of really updating

(39:10) who we are within these organizations. Not least because then so often what that enables people to do is say actually I'm I'm not the best person now to serve the ambition of this organization. It means a lot to me that they achieve it. So how do I now navigate the fact that there's something for me? There's a role for me that's ending that might even involve an exit from the organization.

(39:33) And I'm sure you see this a lot, that it can be really complex for founders to be in boardrooms with board members who've been brought in to do specific things that the organization needs now that they want to see happen. that then those there can be all sorts of tricky stuckness in terms of who's responsible for what, you know, and and how voices how those voices in that room are heard and responded to because those threads haven't been carefully disentangled and our ambition and our understanding of what the reality of that ambition will

(40:10) look and feel like when we achieve it, it often comes as a surprise to people. So I when we talk about brighter beginnings, one of the things we'd love to do or love for organizations is for them to be so happy to see an ending happen because they know it's about the beginning and they're willing therefore to look at the the ending right from the get- go.

(40:29) >> Hi, we're just pausing this interview for a moment. Have you ever finished an episode of the ordev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points? Us two, so we made one. It's called from pod to practice and each week in our newsletter we'll share a two-page summary of the latest org dev episode and it includes key takeaways, a reflection prompt and one small action you can try.

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(41:08) live live to get the latest from pod to practice in your inbox and let us know what you think. We'd love to get your feedback. Yeah. So, just shifting gears slightly, what do you enjoy most about the work that you do? What do you find most fulfilling or exciting? I think for me it's seeing it in action.

(41:22) So, when um when we brought the work into the world, it we brought it into the world through our practices and um we've always said we're practitioners. We didn't want to write a book that was full of theory. We wanted it to be light on frameworks and and useful. And so it is when we actually do something with it with our clients and it helps them get unstuck and move forward towards that brighter beginning because it's incredibly validating.

(41:51) You know, it's incredibly validating to hear that what we have written or how we use the work with our clients actually makes a difference because that's that's the reason for being that's the purpose. And I had um a number of encounters with people at Christmas parties where where they talked about having read the book and the difference it's made to them to read it or they've said things like I wish I'd had this 10 years ago or what we often hear is I wish my boss had read that book.

(42:24) And whilst obviously we don't the point of writing the book is for there to be less of those experiences to hear that it resonates and to hear that those individual stories and that people are able to shift those stories for themselves by working through those steps. Oh, it feels great. >> On the flip side, what challenges do you encounter and how do you navigate them as well? Like when you're trying to embed this work into organizations.

(42:46) So the flip side of that individually is that the other thing that we're quite often hearing at parties and in other places is oh I bought your book but I haven't read it yet. There's a reluctance to read it that I think is a is a sort of mini version of actually what you've just asked about Garrett which is an organizational reluctance because there's an assumption that this is going to be difficult and there's a perhaps a lack of understanding of what the benefits are what the brighter beginnings are. So, we totally get it.

(43:15) At the same time as our response is read it because if you do, you'll find that we're not we're not just being theoretical. We're saying here are the benefits. Here's a way through, give it a go. And also saying and if you need some support, reach out, ask for it, you know, don't don't try and do it at don't try and go it alone.

(43:37) But there's an there's an assumption that this is going to be difficult. And we there are two things we say to that. One is it might not be as difficult as you think and the other is difficult is okay probably means it's worth doing >> and I guess when when you're doing it the first time it's very rare that you'll do it perfectly.

(43:51) So there is is a certain amount of clumsiness that comes with it. So just trying to initiate the process and maybe saying the wrong thing sometimes but just trying to be more like just trying to practice it in in the open. >> Yeah. And it and it's Yeah. And it's not necessarily about doing all of it. It could be taking a bit of time to emotionally think about what might be going on or thinking about what ritual you can do even though the circumstances are tricky.

(44:20) It, you know, it can be it can be light touch. It can be a little bit of it. It can be all of it. It's just about having a go. And if you raise your awareness of endings and why we avoid them and why it might be useful to go towards them, that's progress. That's why we started the ambition of starting the conversation.

(44:37) And I think that's the most difficult thing is because nobody talks about this and now people are talking about it. It's to get that momentum so that it does become something that is inbuilt capacity in our leaders and in our HR and OD communities. If you kind of reflect back on on your career so far, this is quite a big question.

(44:56) What are some of the kind of key lessons that you take with you? Annie's already touched on this, but that start with self. I think you that experience of being on the courses and thinking ah it's about me again but paying consistent attention to that that supervision peer supervision you know continually having the conversations about what is my what's my response to this what am I learning about myself and how does that therefore impact my availability to the people that I'm here to facilitate and coach.

(45:30) I think that's been of huge value to me. But the other thing that has become of increasing value to me is to to be starting with strengths to be thinking strengths is connects to our accomplishments pillar. But the more I pay attention to strengths when I don't need to, the more I find them available to me when I do need them.

(45:52) And I see that in clients both at an individual and an organizational level too. I'm fascinated by the benefits of separating out and naming strengths. >> I think one of the things that's really stuck out for me which I always hold is that curiosity is the is the opposite of judgment. I find as a practitioner sitting in front of many different types of leaders and people and teams as a human being judgment often kicks in.

(46:17) And there's a difference between judgment and discernment. And when I find that judgment voice kicking in, which can be very strong at times because that's how we are built. I know that if I go towards curiosity that I'm engaged and I'm understanding the other person. I suppose that's one of the lessons that I hold through all of that reflective practice and supervision and everything else that Lizz's articulated is actually keeping that constant curiosity so that that sense of othering other people is kept at bay and you're staying in

(46:47) relationship and you're staying in that space of being really really useful to the people we're sitting in front of. You know, Alli, we've we've never described it like this, but listening to you talk there, I think that's what we're trying to offer with those steps. It's here's a way to be curious about endings because curiosity is, as Alli has said, that's that's the antidote to judgment.

(47:08) >> That's a very worthy quote we can take forward from this. Thank you. As well, >> one question we like to ask people is is what does your own learning and development look like? How are you kind of keeping on top of your your own practice and evolving that? What does that look like for you currently? >> The so there's there's two things currently for me.

(47:28) Um the first one is more of a reflective practice about my client conversations. So that sort of you know continuously learning with them. I've been doing this for 21 years and you can and you can you know get to the position where you rock up and you you do your thing. And so actually paying more attention to every conversation and and reinstating a reflective practice of what I really heard and what my part in it was and how that has gone and how it could be different is something that I'm paying attention to at the moment. And and the

(47:59) other bit for me is, you know, I was saying I' I've gone back to Susan David and emotional agility today. Just forever more and more fascinated by our emotional selves, where they sit in our bodies and how they show up. One of the things that Lizzie and I use are emotions cards. So when we are talking to people, we give them a whole load of cards with lots of different emotions written on to help them identify where they are.

(48:23) And the equivalent that I use when I'm and Lizzie does this as well when we're on this sort of medium is is is an emotions wheel. And again, it's a safe, easy way of if somebody's not really understanding because they're very good at understanding what's going on in here, but they're not so used to understanding what the emotional elements, which is probably a driving element of what's going on in their behavior.

(48:47) It it takes the basic emotions and then gives you the different cues of it. So, if somebody says, "I'm frustrated," you know, we know that frustration is a, you know, as Lizzie says, a lid on anger. But by using an emotions wheel, it really helps people explore emotions that they might easily relate to or find more difficult to to get into.

(49:07) So, um, experimenting a lot with that's at the moment. >> I love one of the big things is that managers, a lot of people are accidental managers. They don't necessarily put themselves in that place. They were kind of found themselves in it. And so, they're not as maybe emotionally aware or emotionally literate. They And you said huge.

(49:22) So, it's about having a bigger palette of colors to articulate how you're feeling or how your your people are feeling as well, which means better conversations, doesn't it? >> Yes, absolutely. And that's something you can have as a team, you know, to think, well, I I didn't know that um being remorseful was actually basically saying I'm sad because I might be someone that thinks it's not okay to be sad.

(49:43) So, it's it's it's a it's back to accessibility, ease, doesn't have to be scary. It's a really really useful way of getting into into that. We have a lot of readers and obviously we do recommend your book 100% and you'll find a link to your book in the show notes as well and you said about the the whole point about giants and the people whose work has influenced you.

(50:02) Can you can you recommend perhaps a book or a podcast or video that's that's inspired you could potentially benefit our listeners if we want to sort of take a little bit of a deeper dive into this area? >> So I'd really recommend a deeper dive into the work of David Rock. So we talk in the book about the scarf model. I don't know whether that's a model that you've looked at before on here.

(50:20) Um but um the yeah David David Rock's work on neuro leadership and relational leadership and he's done all sorts of really interesting work and one of the things we quickly connected to as we were doing this work is that endings touch all those five scarf domains that David Rock has identified status certainty autonomy relatedness fairness and actually I I saw something recently and it's led me to revisit his work again that more recently ly when they've been revisiting their work, they're identifying how fairness is now a really

(50:55) the strongest one of the strongest drivers of behavior and relationships. So, I'm really intrigued about that. I have a strong fairness driver myself. I'm aware of it. I recognize it and I um try to use it as a useful driver, but also as one that I need to pay attention to and where might I be overplaying it.

(51:17) So, I' yeah, I'd really recommend. I mean there are podcasts, books, articles, you name it. Have a have a dive into David Rock's work. >> I think I think Breny Brown sits at the heart of so much of where modern leadership has been going and is going. Lizz's already talked about her vulnerability and shame work, you know, courageous leadership.

(51:38) I think it's a brilliant place to dive back into her her work. Um the first of her books I read Daring Greatly, I then got on tape and I probably well not tape it would have been CD. I probably ran the CD out that I knew it off by heart, but heard daring greatly, you know, quote is from the Theodore Roosevelt about talking about um a speech I think he did in something like 1918 talking about being in the arena and if you get if you're in the arena you get knocked out but you stand up and the bloody man stands up and is marred

(52:08) again. I I think we're saying get yourself a little bit in the arena. Here's a handrail. It's not as scary as you think. It has huge impact but dare a little bit greatly around this. So yeah, I I come time and time again to Breny Brown. >> I chuck one more thing in the mix. >> We love references. So yes, go for it.

(52:26) >> Well, so it's I'm going to have to take my glasses off and look at my bookshelves, but the um it it kind of relates to your question, Danny, about evolving as well. And I would say that the last 10 years of my practice and my learning have been characterized by trying to understand what I don't know and realizing just how much I haven't paid attention to and using that as the starting point for going to find out more about you know particularly around inclusive practice in coaching and in organizational development. And I and I

(52:57) think it's that what what are we not paying attention to question that really drives Alien and I in our work as well. you know this. We knew this was something people weren't paying attention to. We knew it was something we weren't paying attention to. That was the first conversation we had about this. We realized, oh, hold on a second.

(53:13) When it comes to coaching, we we pay so much attention to what we call that contracting stage. How do we how do we pay equally intentional, thoughtful attention to how we close and what would the impact of that be? And yeah, myriad of conversations since then. So keep thinking about what you might not know or you might be missing is a great way to work out where to head next for resource I think.

(53:40) >> So this has been a brilliantly expansive conversation. We've shown the torch in lots of different parts of organization and personal life as well. Um if we could leave the audience with one takeaway from take out of this conversation. What would it be for you? >> For me it's something we've repeatedly said throughout and it's worth saying again is be ready to start with yourself. It will be okay.

(54:01) Start with yourself. I think we could have called the book Goodbye and Hello because it is goodbye in service of brighter beginnings. And we hope that energy and we deliberately made the front cover a lovely bright energizing color that that energy will help people think that looking at endings and goodbye will be in service of them going forward >> to beginnings.

(54:27) It's all about the brighter beginnings. >> Well, what an amazing end. It's been such a brilliant conversation. It's been incredibly thoughtprovoking. I don't know about you, Danny, but there's loads of takeaways from me. What What have you taken away from the conversation? >> I think it's hard to do it justice just wrapping up in a few few points.

(54:40) I think we've we've covered lots of ground, and I think you've done a lovely job of kind of making the case for paying attention to endings. So, so thank you for that. Um, I think I've really enjoyed the idea that endings and beginnings are just intertwined. You can't treat them separately.

(54:53) I love what you said about invisible threads of endings and kind of, you know, working that through. And I think something you you said towards the beginning around the invitation to be stewards of endings for the whole system has really struck stuck with me. So so thank you. >> Yeah. And for me, do you know I think it's one of those books and interviews where I'm going to keep waking up at 3:00 in the morning and rewrite my own past.

(55:14) One of the stories that came to my mind is I remember when I got a first promotion to manager many many years ago and I remember feeling a sense of mourning about it and now it all makes sense. And I remember saying to my colleagues at the time, because I'm becoming manager of this team, it's not going to change anything, is it? And all of a sudden, no one started to go to lunch with me because I was the manager.

(55:31) And all of a sudden, you start to realize in your past that often what is actually is a good thing is often there's an ending in there as well. And that I think that's talks to one of the other things you talked about is the importance of time and space and letting things be. And it's not about the manager fixing it as well.

(55:47) I love the term that you talked about is marshmallowing. I think that's a a really lovely turn of phrase as well. um and the ultimate quote that you say which is like curiosity is the antidote to judgment as well. So I think I think our audience are going to get so much value from it and I know that people they're going to want to connect with you as well and follow your work.

(56:04) So if people do want to connect with you or follow your work or read the book where would you advise them to go and I guess one thing you also do as well on your website you've got a deeper dive into four specific areas on your website. So how can how can people find you? >> So you can find either of us on LinkedIn Allison Lucas and Lizzie Bentley Bowers.

(56:21) There is a website that houses the book, the podcast. Thank you very much Garren for referencing those which is goodbycoach.co.uk. >> There's some resources on there too that if you need some things that help to help you facilitate an an inquiry for yourself or others, you'll find some resources on there to help you too.

(56:38) >> Brilliant. And the book is available on Amazon and all the regular. And there it is. Danny's for those that listen on audio is waving the book in front of you as well. It's um well want to say a huge thank you. If you are watching this and you think you know someone that's either experiencing an end, is facilitating an end, or has been affected by an end in the past, please do share this.

(56:58) Danny and I are always so impressed with the number of shares that we get as well. So, if you do know someone, please share a link with them and let them listen to it as well. And also, if you do like it, then please h the like button because the algorithm gods love it and subscribe to the channel because it enables to get brilliant guests like Allison and Lizzie to share their work with us as well.

(57:16) But most importantly, we want to say a huge thank you to Allison and Lizzy. It's been brilliant. We want to say thank you for writing a book and articulating something that Danny and I have been trying to articulate for years. And now we've got something to point someone towards science and everything.

(57:31) So, so we really appreciate it. But a huge thank you to you both. We know you're really busy. So, thanks for making time. >> Thank you for hosting us. >> Yeah, loved your questions. Thank you. It's been great. Heat. Heat.